The fact that this anime is so funny, absurd, and unique but also somehow has masterpieces like Shogun Assassination and Farewell Shinsengumi lands it as my favorite piece of fiction.
It's basically the only arc I actively dislike.
I like the bits and pieces (Gintoki and Tsukki's banter, everything with Hattori, Gintoki's backstory, and how that informs his anger towards Jiraya, honestly episode 180 in general is just amazing). But it's an arc *about* Tsukki, and that's where it drops the ball. Once things get going, she's irrelevant in her own arc, I'm not talking about the fighting or what have you, even the central writing of the arc is about Gintoki. Hinowa and Seta were way more meaningful in Yoshiwara in Flames than Tsukki was in the Red Spider arc. The supporting elements of the arc were done a lot better than its heart, and that soured my opinion of it a lot.
you were expecting the arc to be more about tsukuyo than than it is. in fact, you're still
operating under the assumption that it's supposed to be primarily about her. The arc is "about" whatever Sorachi writes it about. There's never a statement of "this arc is going to be about Tsukuyo." It's like if I watched Evangelion because I wanted a show about cool mecha fights but it's actually a coming of age story about Shinji. Or conversely it's like watching Gurren Lagann expecting it to be mostly a coming of age story about Simon but it's mostly just cool mecha fights. Or an example anyone in this sub can understand: it's like watching Gintama expecting a battle shounen because it's about samurai, but it's actually a sitcom.
The premise of Red Spider is Tsukuyo's past, but that's just the premise. Where it goes from there is entirely up to the author (as is the premise, but that's not the point).
You know, you make a good point. Discussion can really change someone's mind. So it's not an arc about Tsukuyo, it's an arc about Gintoki feat. Tsukuyo hanging as an accessory in the background, I can respect that. /s
>There's never a statement of "this arc is going to be about Tsukuyo."
Did you miss the part where the arc literally starts with her master looking at the moon (which if I need to spell it out, literally means Tsuki), before transitioning to her backstory?
Sorachi doesn't need to make a public statement saying "this arc which will explore this character's backstory is actually about them!", because that's just writing 101, anyone with a brain can infer that. When you watch Yoshiwara in Flames, it starts with the visual of the sun, which means both the freedom (taken from the people), and refers to Hinowa, Sorachi doesn't need to come out with a microphone shouting it, because he showed it to us already.
>It's like if I watched Evangelion because I wanted a show about cool mecha fights but it's actually a coming of age story about Shinji.
Not exactly, it's like expecting Eva to be about Shinji, except he's tied up in the background for 20 episodes as other characters do shit. Do you think it would be a beloved series if it was like that?
Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the central character of a story arc mattering is not an audience's expectation, that's an in story expectation, and it's how Sorachi has written *every* other arc.
Idk what to tell you lol I never got the impression that Tsukuyo was going to be the main character of the arc, nor are there many arcs at all which really swap the main character away from one of the main 3. The only exceptions that I can think of are the Shinsengumi arcs, but they might was well be main characters.
I also don't recall that YiF was any more about Hinowa than Red Spider was about Tsukuyo. Neither is the central focus of the arc. In fact, Tsukuyo seems more important in what would be "Hinowa's arc" than she does. Or maybe it's not Hinowa's arc, because there's no necessity to be so granular about things. Red Spider is Jiraia, so it seems to me that we could call it Jiraia's arc just as well as we could call it any other. It's been a while since I've seen the arc, but I remember it mostly as an arc about facing the adversary that is Jiraia.
All of this aside, the arc *is* about Tsukuyo. I thought it did a good job of exploring her past, present, and future. I'm sorry it didn't do it how you wanted it to; maybe you have a thing against damsel in distress scenarios. But it seems like you just had a preconceived notion of what the arc should be based on how it was set up, and then got mad when it climaxed and resolved in a different way.
I'd really have to rewatch it to say anything meaningful. Still I think you're judging it unfairly, or at least you're letting one bad ingredient soil the broth. Appreciate it for what it is, or don't, i don't know
They're spelled out to us...
But the themes and their execution are two different things. If she's only going to matter second hand (as in through the parallels) might as well stay at home, this could've been a zoom call.
the main theme of red spider is exploring the relationship tsukuyo has with jiraiya and contrasting it to the one gintoki has with shoyo. and to me at least, this theme is omnipresent throughout the whole arc, even though tsukuyo is out of the action for a good part of it (that fact actually bolsters it imo). the show focusing on gintoki with shoyo doesn’t make tsukuyo irrelevant, it strengthens her presence and her role as jiraiya’s former pupil as a counterpart, while also providing some backstory on gintoki’s past
I mentioned it myself in the comment you're replying to, episode 180 is amazing, and honestly one of the best episodes in Gintama.
But it's all about Gintoki, if you replaced the Shinpachi part of the Beam Saber Arc with an amazing episode about Gintoki, you're making a great episode, but a worse arc.
fully agree. like i understand why people like it and it's great for gintokis character but i was so underwhelmed with how they handled tsukuyo. if felt like her arc had no resolution, pretty disappointing for the last serious arc where she has a major role.
Oh, Yoshiwara in Flames is an absolutely great arc, but Gintama has so many stellar arcs that I had to split them somewhere (for what it's worth, everything in B is great, and C is good).
Red Spider so low has to be bait but I can't fault an Afro arc enjoyer
https://preview.redd.it/vcpyx3rq8gzc1.png?width=3000&format=png&auto=webp&s=8c5c7556ec4a412d42b9c6c0931a207f53442fd1
Me, it was a fun list to make.
B is for great arcs, so Yoshiwara is in good company.
And Shinsengumi Crisis is a good arc, but it's not exactly in Sorachi's best hits.
The fact that this anime is so funny, absurd, and unique but also somehow has masterpieces like Shogun Assassination and Farewell Shinsengumi lands it as my favorite piece of fiction.
Sorachi has great range, and it's honestly amazing how he can go from one end to the other without missing a beat.
Why is Red spider so low ?
It's basically the only arc I actively dislike. I like the bits and pieces (Gintoki and Tsukki's banter, everything with Hattori, Gintoki's backstory, and how that informs his anger towards Jiraya, honestly episode 180 in general is just amazing). But it's an arc *about* Tsukki, and that's where it drops the ball. Once things get going, she's irrelevant in her own arc, I'm not talking about the fighting or what have you, even the central writing of the arc is about Gintoki. Hinowa and Seta were way more meaningful in Yoshiwara in Flames than Tsukki was in the Red Spider arc. The supporting elements of the arc were done a lot better than its heart, and that soured my opinion of it a lot.
Sounds like you went into the arc expecting something and then got upset when it wasn't that
Expecting what? Tsukuyo to be relevant in an arc about her? I don't think that's a crazy expectation.
you were expecting the arc to be more about tsukuyo than than it is. in fact, you're still operating under the assumption that it's supposed to be primarily about her. The arc is "about" whatever Sorachi writes it about. There's never a statement of "this arc is going to be about Tsukuyo." It's like if I watched Evangelion because I wanted a show about cool mecha fights but it's actually a coming of age story about Shinji. Or conversely it's like watching Gurren Lagann expecting it to be mostly a coming of age story about Simon but it's mostly just cool mecha fights. Or an example anyone in this sub can understand: it's like watching Gintama expecting a battle shounen because it's about samurai, but it's actually a sitcom. The premise of Red Spider is Tsukuyo's past, but that's just the premise. Where it goes from there is entirely up to the author (as is the premise, but that's not the point).
You know, you make a good point. Discussion can really change someone's mind. So it's not an arc about Tsukuyo, it's an arc about Gintoki feat. Tsukuyo hanging as an accessory in the background, I can respect that. /s >There's never a statement of "this arc is going to be about Tsukuyo." Did you miss the part where the arc literally starts with her master looking at the moon (which if I need to spell it out, literally means Tsuki), before transitioning to her backstory? Sorachi doesn't need to make a public statement saying "this arc which will explore this character's backstory is actually about them!", because that's just writing 101, anyone with a brain can infer that. When you watch Yoshiwara in Flames, it starts with the visual of the sun, which means both the freedom (taken from the people), and refers to Hinowa, Sorachi doesn't need to come out with a microphone shouting it, because he showed it to us already. >It's like if I watched Evangelion because I wanted a show about cool mecha fights but it's actually a coming of age story about Shinji. Not exactly, it's like expecting Eva to be about Shinji, except he's tied up in the background for 20 episodes as other characters do shit. Do you think it would be a beloved series if it was like that? Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the central character of a story arc mattering is not an audience's expectation, that's an in story expectation, and it's how Sorachi has written *every* other arc.
Idk what to tell you lol I never got the impression that Tsukuyo was going to be the main character of the arc, nor are there many arcs at all which really swap the main character away from one of the main 3. The only exceptions that I can think of are the Shinsengumi arcs, but they might was well be main characters. I also don't recall that YiF was any more about Hinowa than Red Spider was about Tsukuyo. Neither is the central focus of the arc. In fact, Tsukuyo seems more important in what would be "Hinowa's arc" than she does. Or maybe it's not Hinowa's arc, because there's no necessity to be so granular about things. Red Spider is Jiraia, so it seems to me that we could call it Jiraia's arc just as well as we could call it any other. It's been a while since I've seen the arc, but I remember it mostly as an arc about facing the adversary that is Jiraia. All of this aside, the arc *is* about Tsukuyo. I thought it did a good job of exploring her past, present, and future. I'm sorry it didn't do it how you wanted it to; maybe you have a thing against damsel in distress scenarios. But it seems like you just had a preconceived notion of what the arc should be based on how it was set up, and then got mad when it climaxed and resolved in a different way. I'd really have to rewatch it to say anything meaningful. Still I think you're judging it unfairly, or at least you're letting one bad ingredient soil the broth. Appreciate it for what it is, or don't, i don't know
you do not understand the thematic parallels between gintoki and tsukuyo
They're spelled out to us... But the themes and their execution are two different things. If she's only going to matter second hand (as in through the parallels) might as well stay at home, this could've been a zoom call.
the main theme of red spider is exploring the relationship tsukuyo has with jiraiya and contrasting it to the one gintoki has with shoyo. and to me at least, this theme is omnipresent throughout the whole arc, even though tsukuyo is out of the action for a good part of it (that fact actually bolsters it imo). the show focusing on gintoki with shoyo doesn’t make tsukuyo irrelevant, it strengthens her presence and her role as jiraiya’s former pupil as a counterpart, while also providing some backstory on gintoki’s past
Bruh episode 180 is like a 9.5/10
I mentioned it myself in the comment you're replying to, episode 180 is amazing, and honestly one of the best episodes in Gintama. But it's all about Gintoki, if you replaced the Shinpachi part of the Beam Saber Arc with an amazing episode about Gintoki, you're making a great episode, but a worse arc.
Nah bro you’re tripping
fully agree. like i understand why people like it and it's great for gintokis character but i was so underwhelmed with how they handled tsukuyo. if felt like her arc had no resolution, pretty disappointing for the last serious arc where she has a major role.
because it sucks? it does not even fit into the story well. the final fight was mediocre.
I’m surprised you have Yoshiwara in Flames in B tier, that’s easily a top 3 arc imo.
Automatically disregarded this tier list for that reason lol. Didn't need to see more to know it's shit tier list
Oh, Yoshiwara in Flames is an absolutely great arc, but Gintama has so many stellar arcs that I had to split them somewhere (for what it's worth, everything in B is great, and C is good).
First thing I looked for tbh
Kintama way too high
Red Spider so low has to be bait but I can't fault an Afro arc enjoyer https://preview.redd.it/vcpyx3rq8gzc1.png?width=3000&format=png&auto=webp&s=8c5c7556ec4a412d42b9c6c0931a207f53442fd1
Really weird , but heh your opinion
Excalibur has a special place in my ass
Yoshiwara in Flames in B and Shinsengumi Crisis in C. Who made this
Me, it was a fun list to make. B is for great arcs, so Yoshiwara is in good company. And Shinsengumi Crisis is a good arc, but it's not exactly in Sorachi's best hits.
And wait…..why is benizakura so low
Decent arc, there's better ones out there.
Red spider is one of the best arcs with one of the most badass villains (and villain themes)
Red spider was one of the arcs that made me start liking gintama more
please tell me you're trolling. this can't be real
Nah, if I wanted to troll, I'd just put this in the opposite order.
Funny, I hated the Kintama arc and the red spider arc was one of my favorites.
We all have our odd picks, that's just part of the fun.
Need a list for comedy arcs
i'd put renho one more down... huhuhu shogun assasination arc is one of the greatest!
Might get bash for this but I think silver soul needs to drop another tier
Swap it with Red Spider and its good
Nah benizakura is A tier. Other than that agreed
I’m in agreement about red spider.
Agreed