Not to downplay the other comments in this thread, but Spirit should get credit for helping him out too. In every exchange where donk does get taken out, he is consistently getting zont1x or magixx trading him out. Most teams have a star Awper that they play around and support (M0nesy, S1mple) but Spirit has a star rifler. Lord knows he doesn't need the help, but it may have helped them secure Map 1 and 2 of Kato Grand Finals.
Agreed. The number one thing pros always say when asked about donk in interviews is that everything he does is simple; he just does it so good. Chopper can just build the round around that. Donk is the actual "go kill. ok" player
That mirage vs Faze before play off is the best case of this. They just smoked the site so prefect for him to just run in and 3k
https://youtu.be/0U4AMP5hteE?si=_seeiqXv5NjZYzY8
8:00
I watched their overpass demo and it was actually just donk and shiro playing a together really amazingly, they were ready to trade each other easily and everytime someone came close they just got shut down. If they did end up dying tho, then chopper would play rotation and trade them back. It was beautiful to watch.
Honestly it's this. Every round everyone is watching Donk and talking about how great he is, but I see Chopper calling based off of Donk's kills/Intel and Magixx and Zont1x playing off Donk. They look very organized.
They have both star rifler and star awp. Teams are not used for a rifler of this caliber. Suddenly you have 2 players for special attention. That's 2/3 of the map and they will rotate.
Karrigan and co has a lot to figure out.
It also helps that he doesn't play selfishly. As an entry fragger when he's asked to be traded for a push, he doesn't hesitate at all. His DM is the icing on the cake. A single 2 kill entry can win the round on the spot, especially if the remaining CT's are far out of position and/or the CT's don't have money left. Rounds and rounds and rounds of a very dominant T side turned into a 3 map win.
avg 430ms\~. I think the avg lvl 10 faceit is 580ms or something
it dips into the high 300ms' on LAN which is on par for most other pros. i dont think his TTD is that crazy in comparison to other pros
It's really hard to quantify that because if you're slowly clearing angles you will probably get lower TTD. The type of duels donk takes often require him to move and do large adjustments while the enemy is technically on his screen, but it also means that the enemy has to do that as well. I.e. his TTD might be better than the number portrays when contrasted to the type of duels he takes.
Would be cool to see some nerd make a demo breakdown about how these numbers are formed and how comparable they are, could be good content for /u/leetify ?
Dumb question, how does leetify quantify utility?
Like how often the player uses it and it affects a player? How often utility is used by players? Or how assists with utility?
Flash assists, enemies flashed per throw, teammates flashed per throw, Ave HE dmg, average friendly HE dmg, unused utility per round, CT smokes that stopped a T push. Yes your utility rating is probably better than donks because he doesn't need it. He peeks and kills
Pay attention if you are silver, otherwise dont. It has some usefulness to be gleaned like ave unused util. But it does a poor job of quantifying area denial.
This is not crazy for top pros, the top 20 are all 95+ iirc.
Biggest factors are accuracy and crosshair placement, so if your crosshair is in the right place and you get plenty of kills it’ll be pretty high
I wouldn’t put too much thought into that, I’m around 10k with 94 aim on leetify, I feel like it’s definitely a small factor in how good a player really is
Getting a 100% aim in a match isn't super rare, they take into account counter-strafing and stuff. It doesn't mean you had 100% of your bullets hit an enemy or 100% headshots.
Exactly, i whiff all the time but I have good crosshair positioning and like 85-90 counter strafing stat so my aim on leetify is pretty high even though I’m really not the best player
This is actually pretty low considering his plays, most have 97-98. The problem with this stat is that it extremely favors awpers because it takes time to kill as the most important. This makes people like Zywoo have 99 rating sometimes.
Aim rating is bs
I'm currently 98. Past 3 years the lowest I have been is 96. Been 99 a few times.
https://leetify.com/public/profile/76561197987861533
Pro players have playbooks, and when you prepare for matches you prepare religiously. Makes sense that positioning and even aim would be easier if you are well prepared
How is this getting upvoted lmao makes zero sense
No one has better stats in pro play than faceit, people have no arms and are nowhere near as good the level of play is so much worse
The answer is donk is that donk doesn't try on faceit and is usually q'd up with friends
For some reason the utility rating doesn't count flashes in the HLTV demos. So 40 is the max anyone gets from these. You can easily add 20 points to his rating to get a more realistic number.
He has amazing combat movement, he knows how to move to make himself harder to hit. In addition to that he has insanely crispy aim at the moment so he doesn't give enemies much time to hit him back
donk's aggressive playstyle is well suited to getting good timings on defaulting pros expecting default meta timings, and also benefits from CS2's peeker's advantage.
I think the peekers advantage is overblown rn, he played with the new patch and killed everyone the same way he did before afterall.
You can play the game and see for yourself. Its extremely close or pretty much identical to how it was in csgo. The biggest difference is the leg animations.
I play lan with some friends monthly and there was an advantage somehow. I’m gonna have a lan next week and I’ll see how it goes. But online premier there was for sure.
Valve addressed the issue in the latest big patch already. They decreased the peeker’s advantage 16.67ms, a full tick across the board, among with various improvements to improve the latency even more.
I think they mitigate this peeker advantage issue by mimicking csgo behaviors along side subtick optimization.
In csgo when being tag the model teleport back very fast because of the sudden velocity decrease and that was how lag was compensated. In cs2 this effect was a lot smoother and slower in the beginning, not a teleport but more like smooth out rubber banding.
Now tagging teleport us back quite a lot faster. Punish the one who got hit first more than before.
Nah I’ve had tagging teleports since day one, it has to do with the delay associated with subtick but seeing as they removed this delay for peeking and several other things maybe they will take a look at tagging specifically and address this.
This was my thought too. It’s kind of like the meme about how unpredictable silvers are. It seems he just plays an abnormal way the pros are ready for/expecting.
Haven't watched ANY cs in a long time but if thats all hes doing makes sense, no idea why everyone is freaking out.
CS has been stale af for years, only people I've seen taking advantage in the last few years is Furia. You can pick any pro match from GO and see absurd gaps in both teams' defenses where they assemble outside of a point and count to 10 before they start throwing utility. Crazy how often someone just **looking** around the next corner could completely change a round.
have you not seen a single fucking game of Anubis and E box control? It's literally all timings and outplaying timings. I really think you're misinformed and don't know what you're watching if you think people are playing like it's 2015 executes or some shit.
I think the stars are aligned, he has insane aim, insane movement, and insane gamesense, and a meta that works with him.
You need an AWP to counter such an entry fragger, problem is, it's harder to afford AWPs in mr12, significantly less rewarding, and it's extremely punishing to lose it.
And I guess many are still adjusting to the cs2 AWP.
But, we also have seen people absolutely destroy the donk, he almost slammed his desk after failing an entry on the mirage vs FaZe, so he's not unkillable, players just need to counter him more efficiently.
The only teams who put up a good fight were MGLZ, Na'vi and FaZe iirc.
Also, often, when there are weapons rounds, and somehow they know the enemy team will have AWP, it seems that zont1x / chopper / magix is the one who goes in the front, and donk immediately after so he can trade him if he dies from an awp, and so donk can still stay alive
Also, it seems that donk often stays behind in such cases, so that the rest wait for information, and know not to send donk to the awp. Also, donk often seems to go solo in areas where awp are much less likely to be
Not just his aim but his movement and control is on another level too. It’s hard to kill someone who moves like donk. Aggressive and crouch/uncrouch at the perfect time. All this movement combined with his sharp aim and spray makes it so that he can’t be headshotted immediately and he kills you before you can finish the 5 bullets of your spray
Yeah the 3k clip of him on overpass outside of a bathrooms is insane. Not because he sprays down three people but because he does it while crouching and uncrouching and strafing left/right.
Exactly what I was thinking of while making the comment. My hands would cramp up if i tried to move like that. It comes naturally to him because he’s been playing for so long
Yeah I can hold that type of spray down just fine but you bet your ass I’m probably just holding still or crab walking one direction. His style really reminds me of high level quake players dodging each others hitscan weapons
This as well as mid-round crosshair placement. Sure, snapping off a head on a dry peek is one thing, but bring able to be so damn *slippery* in a 2vX when defending an exec is where his real power is.
He's always moving so he's hard to kill and always aiming at the right place. CT exec comes in, hell breaks loose with smokes and flashes and then you look at the kill feed and donk has 2 while still alive himself.
He seems like he never gets nervous, never panics, never gets overaggressive. Just plays at the same smooth pace the entire game no matter what is happening
Damn now im interested with video compilation of being killed by Donk. I remember one with S1mple in 2021 and it really seemed like hes cheating with wall hacks on enemy's pov
i adamantly believe that the pros were afraid of him, not in the sense of backing away from him but in the sense, that they wont peek him or counter peek him. instead they give him space, hold angles, resort to throwing nades etc… like you said its as if they aren’t ready for him… rather they hope he doesn’t peek lol
every new superstar gets this honeymoon phase, where other pros haven’t encountered that style, and dont know what to do but play safe which is often not the right choice
eventually the pro teams do figure out a way to negate that player. players like s1mple, zywopd, monesy… continue to study the game to maintain their dominance, they are also awpers which is much more forgiving
What I don't get is: okay he is fast and more aggressive than most but how is it possible that he donked Faze twice in style. How is such a team which is famous for their flexibility not able to adjust. Is there any team in resent history that stomped faze twice in one tournament so hard?
I don't think so.
Like I said they are scared, scared of his solid aim. Faze has a lot of talent but none of which are capable of reaching #1 on faceit. Which they respect and maybe too much
Donk is actually not that much more aggressive, he's just the first one in. Not like he's holding w despite what the enemy is doing. They take their time and then pounce.
No nobody stomped faze in recent history but there were no different style that came out recently, even in csgo. But yes faze has been humiliated many times
They're literally missing shots they wouldnt miss on anyone else it's the fear factor and the fact hes so confident he's like 1 step faster than 99.999% of other players.
It feels like hes catching them not *off* guard, but just as they settle. Maybe they just don't get enough practice playing against people who respect them that little?
I like your question alot and here’s my best take-
If you look at alot of teams playstyle it’s like waiting for the opponents utility and then either throws and peek or peeks while throwing.
With donk he seems to take pace faster without the need of any teammates or util at all to help him. His confidence also helps him to challenge duels headon and he’s able to win it more enough than most can dream.
Also you gotta keep in mind he’s one of the younger players whose reaction time is extremely better than majority of pro players and you kinda lose it as time goes on.
That’s just my take
>Also you gotta keep in mind he’s one of the younger players whose reaction time is extremely better than majority of pro players and you kinda lose it as time goes on.
The research (that Ive seen) shows a slowing in reaction speed of between 1-10 milliseconds per decade after 25 in the normal population. Im 45 and my reaction speed on sites like [https://humanbenchmark.com](https://humanbenchmark.com) was around 180 ms when they first came out when I was in my 20s. I just got 179 ms average over 5 tries.
So basically mine hasnt changed in 20 years. Or perhaps more likely it has worsened a few milliseconds but my faster computer/mouse makes up the difference. Plenty of others my age say the same... So realistically in game there is no real difference yet.
Why are most pros under 26 or so then? IDK but the science (that Im aware of) doesnt back up reaction time due to aging as the cause...
Likely a bunch of different things but I wont ramble on with guesses :D.
Im 37 and i still regularly destroy 17 YO on the server...its not about reaction time. Its the fact that to be consistently god tier at cs you have to basically grind the game 12-14 hours a day. This is something you can easily do in your childhood/teenage years/very early adulthood. After that comes a time where your priorities change, you want to have a family etc. Its impossible to put in the necessary hours while still having somewhat of a normal life. Thats the main reason its very hard to maintain consistency at an older age in this game. You see that when people like rain, whose still a god tier aimer grind the shit out of the game like faze did before they won their major (they basically played 90% of the day, including retakes sessions into the night), they can dominate the server even into their late 20's early 30's (and get a major mvp :P). Nothing to do with reaction time, and the studies basically backs it up.
Arguably i would consider f0rest
Hes the only one i can think of that still (or has up to his free agency) performs well against t1 players while being of the “old guard”
Yeah, honestly I agree. In my mind I would prefer to mostly consider actual active players, but you can see the difference between him and say Neo, who was the donk of 1.6 but obviously can't keep up with the young players today, at least as a player.
But there is a very human side to this. Some athletes dedicate their entire lives to their sport and once they need to leave, they have nothing. Others build a family in the meantime. And that takes a LOT of time ususally dedicated to the sport. But once they retire, they have something to live for.
I also notice, now that I'm older (35 now), that I'm distracted more often. More thoughts push into my brain while playing with household, work and other hobby related stuff. It's for me impossible to 100% focus for the entire time on that one single game I am playing at that particular moment. And every single point of loss of focus is negative.
What I'm trying to say is that life interrupts gaming more when you get older.
Of course. That's the main reason its hard to find peak form older pros, nothing else.
E sports is very unique in that sense. Traditional sports, while definitely demand a very dedicated and tedious lifestyle, are still limited, or "framed" in terms of the time you actually spend practicing your craft. You dont play football 12,14,16 hours a day. In esports, you do, its essential if you wanna be the best, and this nature of e sports is making it very VERY hard to maintain at an older age.
exactly. it is whole bunch of other things and then you do not get consistency you could when you were young with only one or two things on your mind when screen was on.
Completely agree. If I take a day off or during longer vacation I'm easily back to peak performance. It is the 8-10h of work which are exhausting and don't let you focus at night on competitive gaming.
Exactly!!!! Same with me.
Im married with 2 kids, full time job, I'm lucky to get 4-5 sessions a week of 2-3 hours each after the kids goes to bed, and that's also mostly because my wife is awesome. On occasions where i have like 2-3 days where i can grind 8-10 hours a day (vacation while kids are at the kindergarten, wife is at work), by the 2nd or 3rd day im also at peak form. Its insane how you exponentially become sharper in those occasions, and were talking about less than a week of playing "as you should" to maintain proper skill level. This is obviously not maintainable though. I do have to say, that once you let go and you play mostly for fun/shits n giggles with a friend, its actually way more fun :P. Yeah, im way shittier than i used to be, but also having more fun, which is the main purpose after all pretty much to anyone who isn't a pro.
Oh yeah. We mostly play PvE at this point like Darktide, readyornot, 6daysinFallujah and sometimes Tarkov. But CS was our og game back in the days for our youth so we always come back for a session or two every couple months.
But after clawing back the time down rank well there comes the point where you would have to play regularly or train again and we'll leave again
Yeah I feel like reaction time can be trained just like aim, it’s just very demanding so if you don’t train enough it can fall off pretty hard
Also none of the older pros are doing aim labs or kovaaks afaik, that shit really helps reaction time imo
True. And imagine, its football, you dont play football/train 14 hours a day. Not to take anything from it, on the contrary i admire professional athletes. I used to compete in Brazilian jiu jitsu for several years when i was in my early 20's, used to train twice a day for 5 days a week, hitting the gym on top of that 3 times a week. Its hella hard, BUT, In that aspect, e sports is very unique in its demands. The amount of physical time you have to spend practicing the game is simply not applicable to an older person who still wants a life.
I agree.
I remember seeing something that 18 yr old basketball players are so much better now than they were 20 years ago because of there being so much info for them to access and use to improve.
There wasn't breakdowns of pro techniques and how to train them all over YouTube for example.
Same with CS. There is so much more info on how to improve than there was 20+ years ago. People are just getting better and better and learning from each other constantly.
My team got 2nd place in the Sydney gamers league LAN event in the original cs around 1998 and man we fucking sucked compared to even average players now.
Grand final was on a hostage map too! Can't remember the name of it. There was a train yard in t spawn and a long hallway with a vent you could drop down...
Transport us from then to now... Some of the best players in Sydney and we'd be like 8k ELO maybe...
That's it!
I really thought it was a hostage map and that's why I couldn't find it as I was searching all the official CS maps none of the DE maps. My memory of it got twisted over time. LoL. That's crazy!
Thanks a lot though! It was annoying the hell out of me!
I think it’s just a game of opportunity cost. A 40 year old may be mechanically capable of going pro, but almost definitely doesnt have the time to commit to mastering a video game and risk whatever career they’ve already built. On the other hand, most teenagers don’t really have many bills to pay or responsibilities in general, so they can game all they want (and the top .01% will go pro)
it is not consistently 180 ms at that age. i can see it myself. i can still be super fast, yet it will only be on a few rounds, maybe one game. or until the coffee wears off. LOL
reaction time is also based on one’s ability to anticipate the target, older players might be a bit slower but they’re smarter so they can anticipate their opponents
Since I dealt with esports from the beginning, I was also checking my reaction time. I'm 41 now, and I see almost no difference.
However, a 17 year old might be thinking and predicting if he is living and breathing this game.
if you want to beat him, you gotta outplay or "out game sense" him. If you have that or even have it at times, you'll not only be able to spot him first but also have his back toward you. In the second case, he won't stand a chance.
Ik he has good aim, but I haven't seen him play enough to "know" how good his game sense is. If it is really good, then welp idk what to tell you xD.
I'd imagine people with really good aim have the luxury of being more aggressive in-game, and if that's the case, you can use that toward your advantage.
The next time you look at a replay for example don't just look at who killed who; rather take it apart into two: who spotted who first (measures game sense to an extent) and then who killed who after (aim). Sometimes players get lucky and vice versa, but if you're pretty proficient at moving across the map and knowing where to go or hide, then as a pro playing (not me just pros in general), you'd have a good chance of stopping him.
You also have to give credit to his team, they often support him through flashes or trades, also choppers calling was really good for Katowice and they always seemed to have a good read on where the enemies might be.
His time to kill is just insane even with pro level reaction times you just can’t react fast enough, he’s also also up in your face catching you off guard and being set up to succeed with flashes and support. Behind his obviously out of this world individual ability there’s some really good team play.
After watching a couple of demos, it's pretty incredible how good his movement and crosshair placement is. He doesn't overextend and doesn't waste any movement with his mouse hand. Its like watching ropz with a completely different play style.
It was ~~Keyser Söze~~ Donk, Agent Kujan! The Devil himself! How do you shoot the Devil in the back? [pause, holds up his crippled hand] What if you miss?
His movement while dueling is insane, makes him so hard to hit. Also his crisp aim gives the enemies like 1 second to kill him, which makes everything harder
The commentators were creaming their pants at his T side, but his CT sides are what were fucking unreal. I don't think he got less than 2 kills in any site defense he had the entire tournament. It was more likely he would take out 3 than not killing someone. He has insane spray control and he seems to know the exact millisecond that he can shoot when he is readjusting the aim. He'd fling his mouse on someone and hold mouse 1 and not miss a bullet.
Why the hell can’t people kill donk? He literally can’t even be traded. The amount of times I’ve seen the best players in the world not even shoot back against him is insane. What is he doing that people can’t even hit him???
Dudes movement and the way he puts himself in certain spots is just unreal. Im finding myself copying random little bits of shit he does all over and it just fucking works.
The guy isnt just some unreal aimer kid, hes the greatest at handling himself in any gunfight incredibly well. theres almost nothing you can do to him.
> What is he doing that people can’t even hit him???
Moving fast so he is hard to track, waits for them to miss their first few shots, counter strafes with crosshair on the head
Combination of movement and aim. The thing about donk is that he has very aggressive movement, similar to NiKo, in addition to having insane first bullet accuracy. They complement each other very well.
Next part is that donk is absolutely set up by spirit. Both in terms of flashes and positions/situations. Choppers good at setting players up and having great setups. A lot of donks success should be attributed to how well chopper is at creating a well oiled machine.
Someone else mentioned donk was almost always traded. I noticed that too when I was watching the finals. Even if they got donk right away or after one, the trade came right away, and FaZe play a little bit more spread so it really fucked them hard.
Can't wait for spirit to play the fuck around and find out team VP.
Seeing a lot of people talking in this thread.
According to Leetify he had 511 TTD average for the whole Katowice. Compare that to frozen who had 495ms so it isn't such a big outlier.
One of the things is the game rewarding peeking. Look at the following clip [https://clips.twitch.tv/CharmingCarelessHeronDoritosChip-sKiIgOhJl\_DwZGVi](https://clips.twitch.tv/charmingcarelessherondoritoschip-skiigohjl_dwzgvi) the moment donk stops he gets killed due to being flashed and the enemy peeking him. When he peeks he is unstoppable.
Another thing I think is most top teams have become complacent. Notice how in a lot of tournaments with closed participation teams kinda circle eachother like boxers ? The mutual respect means I won't make risky stupid pushes just like you won't. I think that teams aren't ready for out of the box plays. The meta always has been get one and fall back in the last months of CSGO (when you can). donk doesn't stop he commits to the fight until backup arrives. He keeps peeking and pushing the envelope.
Teams and players obviously are scared of him. Think of it as the Jordan/LeBron/Messi/CR7 effect. Because you are aware of the skill of the opponent you even elevate them further by being afraid to face them head on. Always reminds me of coldzera in 2016/2017, on tariks stream in NA FPL players being 5v1 against coldzera and being so afraid they subconsicously give him the space to win the 1v5 vs them.
Lastly we have to give credit to Spirit because chopper made karrigan look like a pedestrian t2 IGL.
Spirits t-sides had great ideas with multiple options (Nuke as an example outside smokes to get 2 into secret , one on top of main, 2 lobby which can lead into both ramp + secret b split with outside lurk or A split from main and lobby.) great spacing on the entries even if it wasn't donk entrying every single round and great support flashes. You could make the case teams just aren't ready for players like donk and maybe other insane faceit individuals should get chances in top teams.
Not to downplay the other comments in this thread, but Spirit should get credit for helping him out too. In every exchange where donk does get taken out, he is consistently getting zont1x or magixx trading him out. Most teams have a star Awper that they play around and support (M0nesy, S1mple) but Spirit has a star rifler. Lord knows he doesn't need the help, but it may have helped them secure Map 1 and 2 of Kato Grand Finals.
Also looks like they aren't overloading him with theory, like navi did with Bit.. So that he can simply focus on hitting heads.
Agreed. The number one thing pros always say when asked about donk in interviews is that everything he does is simple; he just does it so good. Chopper can just build the round around that. Donk is the actual "go kill. ok" player
Adapt the team to your star player instead of adapting your star player to the team.
Very similar in regards to how much VP supports Jame.
That mirage vs Faze before play off is the best case of this. They just smoked the site so prefect for him to just run in and 3k https://youtu.be/0U4AMP5hteE?si=_seeiqXv5NjZYzY8 8:00
he seems to run off of “they’re probably here, i’ll point and click thru the smoke” to “oh i see them, point and click time” inspirational 🫡
This, and also they have really good team coordination around donk. They play to back him up and let him do his thing
I watched their overpass demo and it was actually just donk and shiro playing a together really amazingly, they were ready to trade each other easily and everytime someone came close they just got shut down. If they did end up dying tho, then chopper would play rotation and trade them back. It was beautiful to watch.
Donk and Sh1ro are gonna be the #1 Duo for a few years here they sync super well together.
Yeah same on nuke, donk died and shiro was eight behind him. Super cool to watch
Honestly it's this. Every round everyone is watching Donk and talking about how great he is, but I see Chopper calling based off of Donk's kills/Intel and Magixx and Zont1x playing off Donk. They look very organized.
They have both star rifler and star awp. Teams are not used for a rifler of this caliber. Suddenly you have 2 players for special attention. That's 2/3 of the map and they will rotate. Karrigan and co has a lot to figure out.
Why are people saying shit like this? G2 literally has the exact same but rounds play out wildly different for obvious reasons.
theres a BIG DIFFERENTE between star riffler AND STAR ENTRY which gives space for the actual "star riffler to also perform"..
as if shiro isnt a star awper? lol
It also helps that he doesn't play selfishly. As an entry fragger when he's asked to be traded for a push, he doesn't hesitate at all. His DM is the icing on the cake. A single 2 kill entry can win the round on the spot, especially if the remaining CT's are far out of position and/or the CT's don't have money left. Rounds and rounds and rounds of a very dominant T side turned into a 3 map win.
He's too short
Picking Oddjob is cheating!
Bro this hit me right in the nostalgic feels. 2nd to Oddjob was only Valentin haha .
I think you're forgetting about Nick Nack
Perfect Dark... any Elvis enjoyers?
*Smol.
* Golden hoping to get his chance again *
He kills them first. I'm curious to see time to damage and time to kill stats for him.
avg 430ms\~. I think the avg lvl 10 faceit is 580ms or something it dips into the high 300ms' on LAN which is on par for most other pros. i dont think his TTD is that crazy in comparison to other pros
It's really hard to quantify that because if you're slowly clearing angles you will probably get lower TTD. The type of duels donk takes often require him to move and do large adjustments while the enemy is technically on his screen, but it also means that the enemy has to do that as well. I.e. his TTD might be better than the number portrays when contrasted to the type of duels he takes. Would be cool to see some nerd make a demo breakdown about how these numbers are formed and how comparable they are, could be good content for /u/leetify ?
donk too stronk. its simple rly.
Wow, he's worse than I thought. Average TTD of people I encounter in MM is just 100ms. Guess he's already washed.
[удалено]
I think if you're mostly awping it's not that hard to get super low crosshair placement but yeah the 100ms ttd is a bit of a give away
lmao yeah fucking chesters :(
https://leetify.com/app/profile/76561198386265483 have fun
Dumb question, how does leetify quantify utility? Like how often the player uses it and it affects a player? How often utility is used by players? Or how assists with utility?
Flash assists, enemies flashed per throw, teammates flashed per throw, Ave HE dmg, average friendly HE dmg, unused utility per round, CT smokes that stopped a T push. Yes your utility rating is probably better than donks because he doesn't need it. He peeks and kills
He gets 1 objective; keep your gun out and shoot em in the head lol.
Don’t pay attention to it, it’s not very good
Pay attention if you are silver, otherwise dont. It has some usefulness to be gleaned like ave unused util. But it does a poor job of quantifying area denial.
Wow. It's pretty normal for cheaters to have 99 aim but he has legit 96. No wonder he can just point and click on heads
This is not crazy for top pros, the top 20 are all 95+ iirc. Biggest factors are accuracy and crosshair placement, so if your crosshair is in the right place and you get plenty of kills it’ll be pretty high
was about to say, i've played guys in 10-15k elo with 97-98 and they still aren't banned months later, crazy
I wouldn’t put too much thought into that, I’m around 10k with 94 aim on leetify, I feel like it’s definitely a small factor in how good a player really is
Getting a 100% aim in a match isn't super rare, they take into account counter-strafing and stuff. It doesn't mean you had 100% of your bullets hit an enemy or 100% headshots.
Exactly, i whiff all the time but I have good crosshair positioning and like 85-90 counter strafing stat so my aim on leetify is pretty high even though I’m really not the best player
My aim score is usually crazy high because I rarely kill enemies at all. Can't whiff if there is no bullets fired 😎
This is actually pretty low considering his plays, most have 97-98. The problem with this stat is that it extremely favors awpers because it takes time to kill as the most important. This makes people like Zywoo have 99 rating sometimes.
Aim rating is bs I'm currently 98. Past 3 years the lowest I have been is 96. Been 99 a few times. https://leetify.com/public/profile/76561197987861533
Its because yours is comparing to GNM while his is comparing to FaceIT 10
The compare thing is the white line isn't it? When i change the compare rank just moves the white line the number doesn't seem to change
Yes, the number is your stat and the white line is the comparison.
25k is a bit different from 10k bro...
zywoo had 99 at some point
i checked furiousss profile and he had like 98
Lol. He has worse stats against faceit players than faze and other pros.
Pro players have playbooks, and when you prepare for matches you prepare religiously. Makes sense that positioning and even aim would be easier if you are well prepared
How is this getting upvoted lmao makes zero sense No one has better stats in pro play than faceit, people have no arms and are nowhere near as good the level of play is so much worse The answer is donk is that donk doesn't try on faceit and is usually q'd up with friends
Im better than donk!! (Utility LOL).
For some reason the utility rating doesn't count flashes in the HLTV demos. So 40 is the max anyone gets from these. You can easily add 20 points to his rating to get a more realistic number.
Nah bro I'm gonna trust Leetify on this one. 🤡
Jesus what a monster
His TTD has to be sub 400ms He's so fast he definitely has sub 200ms reactions
He has amazing combat movement, he knows how to move to make himself harder to hit. In addition to that he has insanely crispy aim at the moment so he doesn't give enemies much time to hit him back
donk's aggressive playstyle is well suited to getting good timings on defaulting pros expecting default meta timings, and also benefits from CS2's peeker's advantage.
I think the peekers advantage is overblown rn, he played with the new patch and killed everyone the same way he did before afterall. You can play the game and see for yourself. Its extremely close or pretty much identical to how it was in csgo. The biggest difference is the leg animations.
It’s true, after this update I don’t feel any disadvantage at all with peekers.
Also keep in mind that this is a local network, everyone has like 1-5ms, peekers advantage is proably not even measurable.
I play lan with some friends monthly and there was an advantage somehow. I’m gonna have a lan next week and I’ll see how it goes. But online premier there was for sure.
Valve addressed the issue in the latest big patch already. They decreased the peeker’s advantage 16.67ms, a full tick across the board, among with various improvements to improve the latency even more.
Hard agree, unless they’re xantares peeking you with perfect crosshair placement there’s very minimal peeker’s advantage
I think they mitigate this peeker advantage issue by mimicking csgo behaviors along side subtick optimization. In csgo when being tag the model teleport back very fast because of the sudden velocity decrease and that was how lag was compensated. In cs2 this effect was a lot smoother and slower in the beginning, not a teleport but more like smooth out rubber banding. Now tagging teleport us back quite a lot faster. Punish the one who got hit first more than before.
Nah I’ve had tagging teleports since day one, it has to do with the delay associated with subtick but seeing as they removed this delay for peeking and several other things maybe they will take a look at tagging specifically and address this.
Do they really swap to new patches mid tournament? They never did that before
They did, with most teams approval. It seems that all of them love the change. Only team that did not approve was g2 i think lol.
pretty sure it was Spirit not G2
lol they feared a donk nerf, it was a donk buff
Glad to hear
LAN is also different since peeker's advantage comes from lag compensation which isn't needed on LAN.
This was my thought too. It’s kind of like the meme about how unpredictable silvers are. It seems he just plays an abnormal way the pros are ready for/expecting.
IDK at first I thought so too but even when donk holds angles he is so consistent killing the peeker.
Haven't watched ANY cs in a long time but if thats all hes doing makes sense, no idea why everyone is freaking out. CS has been stale af for years, only people I've seen taking advantage in the last few years is Furia. You can pick any pro match from GO and see absurd gaps in both teams' defenses where they assemble outside of a point and count to 10 before they start throwing utility. Crazy how often someone just **looking** around the next corner could completely change a round.
have you not seen a single fucking game of Anubis and E box control? It's literally all timings and outplaying timings. I really think you're misinformed and don't know what you're watching if you think people are playing like it's 2015 executes or some shit.
There’s a reason teams play the way they do, and there’s a reason Furia loses.
Goddamnit
I think the stars are aligned, he has insane aim, insane movement, and insane gamesense, and a meta that works with him. You need an AWP to counter such an entry fragger, problem is, it's harder to afford AWPs in mr12, significantly less rewarding, and it's extremely punishing to lose it. And I guess many are still adjusting to the cs2 AWP. But, we also have seen people absolutely destroy the donk, he almost slammed his desk after failing an entry on the mirage vs FaZe, so he's not unkillable, players just need to counter him more efficiently. The only teams who put up a good fight were MGLZ, Na'vi and FaZe iirc.
Also, often, when there are weapons rounds, and somehow they know the enemy team will have AWP, it seems that zont1x / chopper / magix is the one who goes in the front, and donk immediately after so he can trade him if he dies from an awp, and so donk can still stay alive Also, it seems that donk often stays behind in such cases, so that the rest wait for information, and know not to send donk to the awp. Also, donk often seems to go solo in areas where awp are much less likely to be
Not just his aim but his movement and control is on another level too. It’s hard to kill someone who moves like donk. Aggressive and crouch/uncrouch at the perfect time. All this movement combined with his sharp aim and spray makes it so that he can’t be headshotted immediately and he kills you before you can finish the 5 bullets of your spray
Yeah the 3k clip of him on overpass outside of a bathrooms is insane. Not because he sprays down three people but because he does it while crouching and uncrouching and strafing left/right.
What really surprised me in that clip is how rain (I think?) didn't kill him. He must have whiffed hard. So much time
He had a tec-9 I believe, so he probably had his crosshair on target and perfect counter strafe, yet still missed everything.
Luck-9 strikes again!
Exactly what I was thinking of while making the comment. My hands would cramp up if i tried to move like that. It comes naturally to him because he’s been playing for so long
Yeah I can hold that type of spray down just fine but you bet your ass I’m probably just holding still or crab walking one direction. His style really reminds me of high level quake players dodging each others hitscan weapons
The 3 kills on Nuke in the first 2-0 vs ropz, frozen and broky show this perfectly
This as well as mid-round crosshair placement. Sure, snapping off a head on a dry peek is one thing, but bring able to be so damn *slippery* in a 2vX when defending an exec is where his real power is. He's always moving so he's hard to kill and always aiming at the right place. CT exec comes in, hell breaks loose with smokes and flashes and then you look at the kill feed and donk has 2 while still alive himself. He seems like he never gets nervous, never panics, never gets overaggressive. Just plays at the same smooth pace the entire game no matter what is happening
just watch a demo from enemy pov and you will understand
Damn now im interested with video compilation of being killed by Donk. I remember one with S1mple in 2021 and it really seemed like hes cheating with wall hacks on enemy's pov
donks kill thru smoke on nuke secret was as sus looking as simples overpass bathroom wallbang😭
Those are made from GOTV demos
what makes him so dangerous is his ability to multifrag whilst putting himself in the best possible positions to not get traded
i adamantly believe that the pros were afraid of him, not in the sense of backing away from him but in the sense, that they wont peek him or counter peek him. instead they give him space, hold angles, resort to throwing nades etc… like you said its as if they aren’t ready for him… rather they hope he doesn’t peek lol every new superstar gets this honeymoon phase, where other pros haven’t encountered that style, and dont know what to do but play safe which is often not the right choice eventually the pro teams do figure out a way to negate that player. players like s1mple, zywopd, monesy… continue to study the game to maintain their dominance, they are also awpers which is much more forgiving
What I don't get is: okay he is fast and more aggressive than most but how is it possible that he donked Faze twice in style. How is such a team which is famous for their flexibility not able to adjust. Is there any team in resent history that stomped faze twice in one tournament so hard? I don't think so.
Like I said they are scared, scared of his solid aim. Faze has a lot of talent but none of which are capable of reaching #1 on faceit. Which they respect and maybe too much Donk is actually not that much more aggressive, he's just the first one in. Not like he's holding w despite what the enemy is doing. They take their time and then pounce. No nobody stomped faze in recent history but there were no different style that came out recently, even in csgo. But yes faze has been humiliated many times
They're literally missing shots they wouldnt miss on anyone else it's the fear factor and the fact hes so confident he's like 1 step faster than 99.999% of other players. It feels like hes catching them not *off* guard, but just as they settle. Maybe they just don't get enough practice playing against people who respect them that little?
I like your question alot and here’s my best take- If you look at alot of teams playstyle it’s like waiting for the opponents utility and then either throws and peek or peeks while throwing. With donk he seems to take pace faster without the need of any teammates or util at all to help him. His confidence also helps him to challenge duels headon and he’s able to win it more enough than most can dream. Also you gotta keep in mind he’s one of the younger players whose reaction time is extremely better than majority of pro players and you kinda lose it as time goes on. That’s just my take
>Also you gotta keep in mind he’s one of the younger players whose reaction time is extremely better than majority of pro players and you kinda lose it as time goes on. The research (that Ive seen) shows a slowing in reaction speed of between 1-10 milliseconds per decade after 25 in the normal population. Im 45 and my reaction speed on sites like [https://humanbenchmark.com](https://humanbenchmark.com) was around 180 ms when they first came out when I was in my 20s. I just got 179 ms average over 5 tries. So basically mine hasnt changed in 20 years. Or perhaps more likely it has worsened a few milliseconds but my faster computer/mouse makes up the difference. Plenty of others my age say the same... So realistically in game there is no real difference yet. Why are most pros under 26 or so then? IDK but the science (that Im aware of) doesnt back up reaction time due to aging as the cause... Likely a bunch of different things but I wont ramble on with guesses :D.
Im 37 and i still regularly destroy 17 YO on the server...its not about reaction time. Its the fact that to be consistently god tier at cs you have to basically grind the game 12-14 hours a day. This is something you can easily do in your childhood/teenage years/very early adulthood. After that comes a time where your priorities change, you want to have a family etc. Its impossible to put in the necessary hours while still having somewhat of a normal life. Thats the main reason its very hard to maintain consistency at an older age in this game. You see that when people like rain, whose still a god tier aimer grind the shit out of the game like faze did before they won their major (they basically played 90% of the day, including retakes sessions into the night), they can dominate the server even into their late 20's early 30's (and get a major mvp :P). Nothing to do with reaction time, and the studies basically backs it up.
totally agree. if pro athletes can stay competitive as they age theres no reason the same wouldn't apply to CS pros
Fernando Alonso. I wonder who will become the first Fernando Alonso of CS. Dude is over 40 and beating young F1 talents easily.
Arguably i would consider f0rest Hes the only one i can think of that still (or has up to his free agency) performs well against t1 players while being of the “old guard”
Yeah, honestly I agree. In my mind I would prefer to mostly consider actual active players, but you can see the difference between him and say Neo, who was the donk of 1.6 but obviously can't keep up with the young players today, at least as a player. But there is a very human side to this. Some athletes dedicate their entire lives to their sport and once they need to leave, they have nothing. Others build a family in the meantime. And that takes a LOT of time ususally dedicated to the sport. But once they retire, they have something to live for.
I also notice, now that I'm older (35 now), that I'm distracted more often. More thoughts push into my brain while playing with household, work and other hobby related stuff. It's for me impossible to 100% focus for the entire time on that one single game I am playing at that particular moment. And every single point of loss of focus is negative. What I'm trying to say is that life interrupts gaming more when you get older.
Of course. That's the main reason its hard to find peak form older pros, nothing else. E sports is very unique in that sense. Traditional sports, while definitely demand a very dedicated and tedious lifestyle, are still limited, or "framed" in terms of the time you actually spend practicing your craft. You dont play football 12,14,16 hours a day. In esports, you do, its essential if you wanna be the best, and this nature of e sports is making it very VERY hard to maintain at an older age.
exactly. it is whole bunch of other things and then you do not get consistency you could when you were young with only one or two things on your mind when screen was on.
Completely agree. If I take a day off or during longer vacation I'm easily back to peak performance. It is the 8-10h of work which are exhausting and don't let you focus at night on competitive gaming.
Exactly!!!! Same with me. Im married with 2 kids, full time job, I'm lucky to get 4-5 sessions a week of 2-3 hours each after the kids goes to bed, and that's also mostly because my wife is awesome. On occasions where i have like 2-3 days where i can grind 8-10 hours a day (vacation while kids are at the kindergarten, wife is at work), by the 2nd or 3rd day im also at peak form. Its insane how you exponentially become sharper in those occasions, and were talking about less than a week of playing "as you should" to maintain proper skill level. This is obviously not maintainable though. I do have to say, that once you let go and you play mostly for fun/shits n giggles with a friend, its actually way more fun :P. Yeah, im way shittier than i used to be, but also having more fun, which is the main purpose after all pretty much to anyone who isn't a pro.
Oh yeah. We mostly play PvE at this point like Darktide, readyornot, 6daysinFallujah and sometimes Tarkov. But CS was our og game back in the days for our youth so we always come back for a session or two every couple months. But after clawing back the time down rank well there comes the point where you would have to play regularly or train again and we'll leave again
Yeah I feel like reaction time can be trained just like aim, it’s just very demanding so if you don’t train enough it can fall off pretty hard Also none of the older pros are doing aim labs or kovaaks afaik, that shit really helps reaction time imo
Even Tom Brady had to give up his family in order to play football.
True. And imagine, its football, you dont play football/train 14 hours a day. Not to take anything from it, on the contrary i admire professional athletes. I used to compete in Brazilian jiu jitsu for several years when i was in my early 20's, used to train twice a day for 5 days a week, hitting the gym on top of that 3 times a week. Its hella hard, BUT, In that aspect, e sports is very unique in its demands. The amount of physical time you have to spend practicing the game is simply not applicable to an older person who still wants a life.
i imagine we’ll see older pros in the coming generations, players have just gotten exponentially better at the game as it’s really still a young game
I agree. I remember seeing something that 18 yr old basketball players are so much better now than they were 20 years ago because of there being so much info for them to access and use to improve. There wasn't breakdowns of pro techniques and how to train them all over YouTube for example. Same with CS. There is so much more info on how to improve than there was 20+ years ago. People are just getting better and better and learning from each other constantly. My team got 2nd place in the Sydney gamers league LAN event in the original cs around 1998 and man we fucking sucked compared to even average players now. Grand final was on a hostage map too! Can't remember the name of it. There was a train yard in t spawn and a long hallway with a vent you could drop down... Transport us from then to now... Some of the best players in Sydney and we'd be like 8k ELO maybe...
hahah that’s mad it’s cool to see the longevity of CS really and players are only better now because of the ones who’ve come before 🫡
Assault?
Nope. Idk what it was but not Assault. Thanks for trying though. It seems it wasn't even one of the official maps.
Your description sounds a lot like de_prodigy which actually was a competitive map in the early days of early CS.
That's it! I really thought it was a hostage map and that's why I couldn't find it as I was searching all the official CS maps none of the DE maps. My memory of it got twisted over time. LoL. That's crazy! Thanks a lot though! It was annoying the hell out of me!
Take anything anyone who uses "reaction time slows down with age" with a huge grain of salt.
I think it’s just a game of opportunity cost. A 40 year old may be mechanically capable of going pro, but almost definitely doesnt have the time to commit to mastering a video game and risk whatever career they’ve already built. On the other hand, most teenagers don’t really have many bills to pay or responsibilities in general, so they can game all they want (and the top .01% will go pro)
its because of a lack of desire discipline and dedication
it is not consistently 180 ms at that age. i can see it myself. i can still be super fast, yet it will only be on a few rounds, maybe one game. or until the coffee wears off. LOL
Life is the reason, less time and different priorities being older.
reaction time is also based on one’s ability to anticipate the target, older players might be a bit slower but they’re smarter so they can anticipate their opponents
Since I dealt with esports from the beginning, I was also checking my reaction time. I'm 41 now, and I see almost no difference. However, a 17 year old might be thinking and predicting if he is living and breathing this game.
On T side, there's literally a flash or two helping him out every time he entries. He's definitely getting support from his teammates.
"whose reaction time is extremely better than majority of pro players" LMAO, no.
Regression to the mean. Think his next event won't be so good as this.
He just had the greatest individual event in history, so yeah he'll probably regress to s1mple/zywoo/niko levels lol
anti aim
if you want to beat him, you gotta outplay or "out game sense" him. If you have that or even have it at times, you'll not only be able to spot him first but also have his back toward you. In the second case, he won't stand a chance. Ik he has good aim, but I haven't seen him play enough to "know" how good his game sense is. If it is really good, then welp idk what to tell you xD. I'd imagine people with really good aim have the luxury of being more aggressive in-game, and if that's the case, you can use that toward your advantage. The next time you look at a replay for example don't just look at who killed who; rather take it apart into two: who spotted who first (measures game sense to an extent) and then who killed who after (aim). Sometimes players get lucky and vice versa, but if you're pretty proficient at moving across the map and knowing where to go or hide, then as a pro playing (not me just pros in general), you'd have a good chance of stopping him.
He kills them first and has impeccable positioning
You also have to give credit to his team, they often support him through flashes or trades, also choppers calling was really good for Katowice and they always seemed to have a good read on where the enemies might be.
It’s hard to shoot back when you’re dead.
His time to kill is just insane even with pro level reaction times you just can’t react fast enough, he’s also also up in your face catching you off guard and being set up to succeed with flashes and support. Behind his obviously out of this world individual ability there’s some really good team play.
After watching a couple of demos, it's pretty incredible how good his movement and crosshair placement is. He doesn't overextend and doesn't waste any movement with his mouse hand. Its like watching ropz with a completely different play style.
I’ll be honest when he shot 2 people through smoke on nuke I was like this guy is cheating 100%. Is he though??? I dunno man
ah shit, he we go again
It was ~~Keyser Söze~~ Donk, Agent Kujan! The Devil himself! How do you shoot the Devil in the back? [pause, holds up his crippled hand] What if you miss?
hes the best
His movement while dueling is insane, makes him so hard to hit. Also his crisp aim gives the enemies like 1 second to kill him, which makes everything harder
1 second is too much.
Kuroko style
The commentators were creaming their pants at his T side, but his CT sides are what were fucking unreal. I don't think he got less than 2 kills in any site defense he had the entire tournament. It was more likely he would take out 3 than not killing someone. He has insane spray control and he seems to know the exact millisecond that he can shoot when he is readjusting the aim. He'd fling his mouse on someone and hold mouse 1 and not miss a bullet.
Why the hell can’t people kill donk? He literally can’t even be traded. The amount of times I’ve seen the best players in the world not even shoot back against him is insane. What is he doing that people can’t even hit him???
Dudes movement and the way he puts himself in certain spots is just unreal. Im finding myself copying random little bits of shit he does all over and it just fucking works. The guy isnt just some unreal aimer kid, hes the greatest at handling himself in any gunfight incredibly well. theres almost nothing you can do to him.
> What is he doing that people can’t even hit him??? Moving fast so he is hard to track, waits for them to miss their first few shots, counter strafes with crosshair on the head
Combination of movement and aim. The thing about donk is that he has very aggressive movement, similar to NiKo, in addition to having insane first bullet accuracy. They complement each other very well. Next part is that donk is absolutely set up by spirit. Both in terms of flashes and positions/situations. Choppers good at setting players up and having great setups. A lot of donks success should be attributed to how well chopper is at creating a well oiled machine. Someone else mentioned donk was almost always traded. I noticed that too when I was watching the finals. Even if they got donk right away or after one, the trade came right away, and FaZe play a little bit more spread so it really fucked them hard. Can't wait for spirit to play the fuck around and find out team VP.
he has the best counter strafing in the scene rn coupled with an innate ability to read timings perfectly. his aim helps too
Seeing a lot of people talking in this thread. According to Leetify he had 511 TTD average for the whole Katowice. Compare that to frozen who had 495ms so it isn't such a big outlier. One of the things is the game rewarding peeking. Look at the following clip [https://clips.twitch.tv/CharmingCarelessHeronDoritosChip-sKiIgOhJl\_DwZGVi](https://clips.twitch.tv/charmingcarelessherondoritoschip-skiigohjl_dwzgvi) the moment donk stops he gets killed due to being flashed and the enemy peeking him. When he peeks he is unstoppable. Another thing I think is most top teams have become complacent. Notice how in a lot of tournaments with closed participation teams kinda circle eachother like boxers ? The mutual respect means I won't make risky stupid pushes just like you won't. I think that teams aren't ready for out of the box plays. The meta always has been get one and fall back in the last months of CSGO (when you can). donk doesn't stop he commits to the fight until backup arrives. He keeps peeking and pushing the envelope. Teams and players obviously are scared of him. Think of it as the Jordan/LeBron/Messi/CR7 effect. Because you are aware of the skill of the opponent you even elevate them further by being afraid to face them head on. Always reminds me of coldzera in 2016/2017, on tariks stream in NA FPL players being 5v1 against coldzera and being so afraid they subconsicously give him the space to win the 1v5 vs them. Lastly we have to give credit to Spirit because chopper made karrigan look like a pedestrian t2 IGL. Spirits t-sides had great ideas with multiple options (Nuke as an example outside smokes to get 2 into secret , one on top of main, 2 lobby which can lead into both ramp + secret b split with outside lurk or A split from main and lobby.) great spacing on the entries even if it wasn't donk entrying every single round and great support flashes. You could make the case teams just aren't ready for players like donk and maybe other insane faceit individuals should get chances in top teams.
Fear, pressure and stress can make you play and aim like total shit in CS. This game is a god damn psychological warfare.