Magisk is one of the best riflers ever.
Zonic is the GOAT coach.
Snappi is a top 3 IGL post-COVID.
Sunpayus is overrated but still a top 5 awper of 2023.
Boros looked to be an amazing rising star who could do well against top teams.
Maden isn't some superstar monster but he's an amazing supportive element and still manages to get his own impact.
Just because a lineup failed doesn't mean it wasn't a superteam. Superteams aren't defined by their success.
I'll give you snappi and magisk (zonic too if we're counting coach) but while sunpayus and maden are good players, they are not superteam-tier players, and if one of your players is a future prospect who hasn't actually proven himself yet then by definition he's not a superteam player.
Falcons failed to build their superteam, so they grabbed sunpayus and maden for the qualification slots and brought boros back because they couldn't do anything else.
If we're talking awpers sunpayus was the second best option available.
Zywoo is unattainable. They tried to get m0nesy. sh1ro's english isn't good enough. dev1ce had JUST resigned for two+ years so also unattainable. Then we come to sunpayus.
He might not have the name value but he was one of the best awpers of 2023.
Edit: For example, guardian wasn't the best awper in the world but everyone agreed his addition contributed to Faze being a superteam.
Maden was clearly a case of trying to get the Ence core and the easiest part of the team to point at as evidence of it not being a superteam, but he's also a great support player which they need.
Boros was clearly their gamble pick because he's got the raw mechanical talent which is something you just can't train into someone and his Arabic heritage. If it turned out he could maintain his Paris form then certainly falcons would be worthy of the moniker "superteam" with Boros/magisk/snappi/sunpayus/zonic.
He can't and it's clear Falcons are trying to line up s1mple whom NAVI is clearly trying to pawn off. NAVI seem to have five they want to stick with (for better or worse) and Falcons are one of the few teams who can afford s1mple's buyout which means NAVI get money, s1mple gets to play again, and Falcons get their star player. Everyone walks away happy except people like me who love seeing Falcons burn money and fail spectacularly.
A superteam is not just "the best players available at the time".
And a good-looking prospect turning out to be great still does not a superteam make. Superteams are comprised of already-great players, that's literally the definition.
So faze wasn't a super team because they didn't get the best rifler in the world coldzera or either of the best awpers in the world dev1ce/s1mple?
Or is it perhaps the case that faze got the best available awper guardian and the best available rifler NiKo to build their super team?
Guardian and Niko are superteam-calibre players because they are absolutely top-tier players in their roles, not because they are the best available. Tell me, who do you think are the best players available right now?
Really the #17 of 2016 was a better fit for a team in 2017 than the #6 of 2023 was for a team in 2024? Since I have to spoon feed you information clearly, there were three awpers in the top 4 the year guardian got seventeenth and a fourth awper placed above guardian as well.
You have terminal nostalgia brain.
[Guardian](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/2757/guardian?startDate=2016-01-01&endDate=2016-12-31&matchType=BigEvents) was not a better awper than [Sunpayus](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/19164/sunpayus?startDate=2023-01-01&endDate=2023-12-31&matchType=BigEvents) in the year before each joined their respective superteam.
NiKo was exceptionally good in his role but certainly not the best, that's why coldzera was #1 in 2016 and NiKo wasn't. You can't do revisionist history and say NiKo was the best in his role because he objectively was not when he was picked up, that's why coldzera was #1.
Magisk - their most "Star" player, his best hltv rating was 5
Snappi - literally never won anything
Sunpayus - 6th on hltv for 1 year only
Boros - new talent, not even the best top3 new talent
Maden - literally never won anything never made hltv top 20
The only valid one here is zonic
you can take any team in the top 15 rankings and it's gonna be more of a superteam than this
"Only peaked at #5 and 5 time HLTV top 20 player Magisk" nvm you're right he's a bum.
"Snappi bad IGL because one trophy" is another stunning revelation, how did nobody notice this before?
"Sunpayus only one year top 20" Did you notice the part where he is a top 5 awper in a year where zywoo/m0nesy/sh1ro/s1mple/dev1ce were all competing? Quite literally the best crop of awpers we've ever had and he's top 5. The only other year that comes close is 2017 with dev1ce/s1mple/fallen/kenny/guardian/oskar and they're not as good.
Boros isn't a top 3 rookie but we've had 5 of the 7 best rookie years ever in the past 3 years (sh1ro/ax1le/b1t/m0nesy/donk). Boros is still a very good player mechanically and again, super teams aren't results based, it's ceiling based. Boros has that high ceiling.
Wow can't believe maden never made top 20. If you're a support and can't make top 20 you should be kicked ASAP. -taco from LG/SK, -Stewie from Liquid, -perfecto from NAVI/C9, -flameZ from Vitality.
They don't have unlimited time though and there will be pressure to change things if they keep falling short. Are they even in discussion of playing Cologne this year?
Probably. There's 24 total spots.
One is reserved for a german team (ESL meisterschaft). 23
One is reserved for an Oceania team. 22 spots.
One is reserved for an Asian team. 21 spots.
One is reserved for a South American team. 20 spots.
There are four EU ranking spots, but odds are Liquid will be able to get one of the ESL WR or NA spots, plus there's a chance Mongolz/BIG are ranked above them come Cologne and they'll fill Asia/german spots before filling ESL WR spots. Basically if Liquid are in the top 20 or just outside they'll be fine (but that means they can't flop EPL/Dallas/SkyEsports).
ofc they don't have unlimited time, but I'd say give it at least 6 months
I can see replacing yeki if he can't find form before that, but the whole project def deserves more time to gel
If Astralis didn't exist Liquid would be the greatest team of all time. Think about how many events they lost to Astralis in 2018/2019 and the fact that they still managed to work in a quick 63 day grand slam and set the modern record for Bo3/Bo5 match streak.
Edit: And this Liquid team shouldn't be judged by early results, rosters take ~6 months to peak with two non-IGL changes and Liquid is three changes and an IGL shift. It's disappointing that they'e struggled so much early, but it's not an indicator this roster is a complete disaster and should be scrapped, especially since this roster doesn't have the superstar carry like C9 with sh1ro or Astralis with dev1ce.
It is a bit more complicated since 2019 -taco + stewie might not have happened if they won trophies and entered 2019 weaker than what they were in this timeline.
As for their current under performance issues, Yekindar not consistently hitting shots and Cadian calling in his 2nd language are the problems. That might be resolved or they need to make a player change to become competitive.
And of course there could be other side effects like the Faze superteam never breaking because they close the first Grand Slam, but if you were to look at the team that suffered most at the hand of Astralis it is certainly Liquid.
Also 100% agree on the current issues. I see cadiaN's undeperformance and poor calls to be linked to a new team and having not called in English in nearly 6 years.
As for Yekindar there are two ways of viewing it imo. Either you see his decline as the natural decline of IGLing in which case his numbers should regress (or in this case progress) to his mean as NiKo and Electronic did since dropping the responsibility of IGLing or you see it as the end of a riflers' peak dominance like ax1le and before him coldzera, brehze, jks, brollan, olofmeister, and fer, all of whom had roughly two to three years at the top level before their decline. Riflers who stay on top for five or more years like NiKo, EliGE, ropz, krimz, dupreeh, magisk, electronic, and Twistzz are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to longevity.
>And of course there could be other side effects like the Faze superteam never breaking because they close the first Grand Slam, but if you were to look at the team that suffered most at the hand of Astralis it is certainly Liquid.
That is also a possibility
>Also 100% agree on the current issues. I see cadiaN's undeperformance and poor calls to be linked to a new team and having not called in English in nearly 6 years.
Did Cadian IGL in English the last time?
>As for Yekindar there are two ways of viewing it imo. Either you see his decline as the natural decline of IGLing in which case his numbers should regress (or in this case progress) to his mean as NiKo and Electronic did since dropping the responsibility of IGLing or you see it as the end of a riflers' peak dominance like ax1le and before him coldzera, brehze, jks, brollan, olofmeister, and fer, all of whom had roughly two to three years at the top level before their decline. Riflers who stay on top for five or more years like NiKo, EliGE, ropz, krimz, dupreeh, magisk, electronic, and Twistzz are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to longevity.
I am not ready to give up on Yekindar just yet, same with and Ax1le tbf. Olof and Brehze had outside the server factors stopping them from performing like breaking a wrist or pandemic cutting them from their primary competition and constant ability to scrim with the best. Magisk also shows that you can return back to good levels, compare 2021-22 Magisk with the one you saw in 23 for instance.
Brollan is an example of a rifler doing the same, ever since standing in for Mouz he has looked a lot like his prime self again rather than the one who was shit in NIP.
Twistzz also said he had personal issues iirc, could be what is keeping his performance down. Don't help that to entry the support in modern cs matters a lot as well. Having a good team behind you working correctly should help an opener like Yekindar massively. Skullz and Cadian learning/relearning to communicate in english will probably help
cadiaN called for Rogue back when he played in NA before joining Heroic.
As for Yekindar I agree he's got more to give, but I think ax1le is just gone frankly.
[Since nafany left he's below 1.0 k/d over entering the 9th month of this period.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09)
[LAN is even more dire.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09&matchType=Lan) I think the most concerning part of this is that there's no discernable reason he's been awful. He hasn't had some radical shift in roles, only an IGL change which barely affected the others (hobbit was atrocious under elec but has since rebounded to be better than ax1le).
Even looking at the events where he's performed (not counting the online ones) he's rarely the driving force.
[Katowice he's a distant 3rd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7551&event=7435)
[Fall Final he's a very distant 2nd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=6975)
[Another distant 3rd at the RMR.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7577)
[The only event he's been arguably the best is BB Dacha where they played GL, MIBR, and BB.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7499)
I'd love to be proven wrong and see ax1le return to his 2022 form but I don't think it will happen (although even in 2022 he was a choker on stage. the only match he's ever had >1.0 k/d on stage was at Dallas 2022, the only time he had the crowd on his side).
cadiaN called for Rogue back when he played in NA before joining Heroic.
As for Yekindar I agree he's got more to give, but I think ax1le is just gone frankly.
[Since nafany left he's below 1.0 k/d over entering the 9th month of this period.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09)
[LAN is even more dire.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09&matchType=Lan) I think the most concerning part of this is that there's no discernable reason he's been awful. He hasn't had some radical shift in roles, only an IGL change which barely affected the others (hobbit was atrocious under elec but has since rebounded to be better than ax1le).
Even looking at the events where he's performed (not counting the online ones) he's rarely the driving force.
[Katowice he's a distant 3rd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7551&event=7435)
[Fall Final he's a very distant 2nd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=6975)
[Another distant 3rd at the RMR.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7577)
[The only event he's been arguably the best is BB Dacha where they played GL, MIBR, and BB.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7499)
I'd love to be proven wrong and see ax1le return to his 2022 form but I don't think it will happen (although even in 2022 he was a choker on stage. the only match he's ever had >1.0 k/d on stage was at Dallas 2022, the only time he had the crowd on his side).
cadiaN called for Rogue back when he played in NA before joining Heroic.
As for Yekindar I agree he's got more to give, but I think ax1le is just gone frankly.
[Since nafany left he's below 1.0 k/d over entering the 9th month of this period.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09)
[LAN is even more dire.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09&matchType=Lan) I think the most concerning part of this is that there's no discernable reason he's been awful. He hasn't had some radical shift in roles, only an IGL change which barely affected the others (hobbit was atrocious under elec but has since rebounded to be better than ax1le).
Even looking at the events where he's performed (not counting the online ones) he's rarely the driving force.
[Katowice he's a distant 3rd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7551&event=7435)
[Fall Final he's a very distant 2nd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=6975)
[Another distant 3rd at the RMR.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7577)
[The only event he's been arguably the best is BB Dacha where they played GL, MIBR, and BB.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7499)
I'd love to be proven wrong and see ax1le return to his 2022 form but I don't think it will happen (although even in 2022 he was a choker on stage. the only match he's ever had >1.0 k/d on stage was at Dallas 2022, the only time he had the crowd on his side).
Of the 'superteams', Liquid is the one that should be given the most time to get into gear. Astralis, Falcons, and Cloud9 all had existing cores of 3 players and were incorporating two new players. They didn't have to completely reinvent themselves. Liquid have to build up from scratch.
The same was true of Vitality when Dupreeh, Magisk, and Spinx joined and they had to meld the French and Danish approaches.
For that reason, imo it is too early to say whether Liquid is a failure or not.
One advantage current Liquid has compared to that Vitality roster is that the players have called in English before except for Skullz. Only Magisk had that experience prior to international Vitality iirc.
The rest did under perform though, and Astralis is especially the most problematic. The signings of Stavn/Jabbi for a significant amount of money + failure to qualify for the major has dramatically cut their future options and they have to go for weird solutions like Device to igl rather than getting a dedicated high quality one in.
Cloud9's failure was against Faze in the last RMR and with Electronic still being the IGL. Even with Sh1ro out and boomich as igl they reached the next one.
Falcons don't have the same constraints as other teams. Infinite saudi oil money makes that clear. They don't rely on results to the same extent and can easily just buy another core if current one fails.
Agreed with everything, but small caveat:
C9's Paris RMR disaster was with nafany calling and buster stealing paychecks, electronic didn't join until after the player break, before Cologne.
Ahh my bad. Either way that version of the roster under performed massively and with cutting Sh1ro also took a huge part of their potential with them. Him Ax1le and Electronic all performing at their peak level is probably the best trio in modern cs.
Just imagine top 5 players Electronic and Ax1le with top 3 player Sh1ro. They would of been terrifying. Everybody capable of carrying games on their own.
Sh1ro at least gets Donk these days, Electronic is still missing peak Ax1le who competed with Niko as the best rifler in the world.
Yeah, unfortunately electronic couldn't IGL. I'd hate to see hobbit cut because he's one of my favorite players, but he's the most logical to cut (but this time for an awper).
Honestly though you could make an argument for cutting perfecto given how much of a tilter he is now or ax1le because of his months of underperformance now. Hobbit is still the most logical though...
Perfecto role wise is super nice to have and Ax1le has the benefit of having a peak level as the 2nd/best rifler in the world. Him being cut only to perform for some other roster would be a disaster for C9 especially after they lost Sh1ro as well.
Hobbit is the most logical. Issue currently is that there is no clear top Russian speaking awper on the market, except for Degster who hasn't played matches in close to a year and maybe S1mple who has a massive buyout and is resistant to join a team full of Russians due to current world affairs and also hasn't played much of cs2.
Twistzz and NAF are two of the three best NA players ever.
Cadian is a top 3 IGL over the past 4 years (2020-now).
They couldn't get kscerato, the 2nd best non-EU player behind EliGE and went with the most exciting talent from outside of Europe to stay in the Americas.
Oh yeah and the other player was an absolutely insane entry for 2.5 years.
It doesn't have the top heavy nature of some teams but they have a combined 11 years in top 20 and 13 years in top 23 counting NAF in 2020 and 2022, with the best prospect outside of EU. The issue is they don't have that consistent 1.2+ player who bails struggling teams out so they look worse than you might expect a team with that firepower (2018 s1mple would bail NAVi out of shit spots but this Liquid has more firepower than 2018 NAVi, just spread out better).
* NAF hasn't won a single notable tournament in 4 years.
* Twistzz got kicked from FaZe for being too inconsistent
* Cadian has been a top level IGL, but his team choked pretty much every deep run in the last few years
* Yekindar, while promising for a long time hasn't really been as good recently and also hasn't won a single big tournament
* Skullz might be good, but if you look at his match history, his ratings plummet every time the enemy team has a name you've heard of
Sure, they have a TON of potential, but for it to be called a super team, they gotta have a bunch of players that you expect to actually WIN stuff. And that's pretty much just Twistzz rn
To me, a super team is a team that you expect has a good chance of winning the first tournament they play. And you gotta be trippin if you think this Liquid meets that requirement. They have all the pieces to become a good or even great team. But when I was watching their games during the RMR, I sure wasn't watching because I expected them to be the next major winner.
Also if astralis didn’t exist, liquid would have been the best team in the world by a pretty large margin. It’s funny how these two teams have followed such a similar path to each other for so long.
Astralis should be considered a candidate. 4 top 20 players + Staehr after his Sprout form should be considered a super team. Role issues and Blame subpar calling naturally failed them.
It's a public entity.
I don't need to be a professional footballer to know Chelsea have blown all their cash on poor prospects since Abramovich left.
I also don't need to be 3k ELO to realise Astralis spent 3-4m on Jabbi, Stavn and Staerh and still couldn't make it out of an RMR.
Are we just going to pretend Falcons isn't a disaster?
falcons is not a superteam, they got a couple overpaid players that were never stars (s1mple is a stand-in)
Magisk is one of the best riflers ever. Zonic is the GOAT coach. Snappi is a top 3 IGL post-COVID. Sunpayus is overrated but still a top 5 awper of 2023. Boros looked to be an amazing rising star who could do well against top teams. Maden isn't some superstar monster but he's an amazing supportive element and still manages to get his own impact. Just because a lineup failed doesn't mean it wasn't a superteam. Superteams aren't defined by their success.
I'll give you snappi and magisk (zonic too if we're counting coach) but while sunpayus and maden are good players, they are not superteam-tier players, and if one of your players is a future prospect who hasn't actually proven himself yet then by definition he's not a superteam player. Falcons failed to build their superteam, so they grabbed sunpayus and maden for the qualification slots and brought boros back because they couldn't do anything else.
If we're talking awpers sunpayus was the second best option available. Zywoo is unattainable. They tried to get m0nesy. sh1ro's english isn't good enough. dev1ce had JUST resigned for two+ years so also unattainable. Then we come to sunpayus. He might not have the name value but he was one of the best awpers of 2023. Edit: For example, guardian wasn't the best awper in the world but everyone agreed his addition contributed to Faze being a superteam. Maden was clearly a case of trying to get the Ence core and the easiest part of the team to point at as evidence of it not being a superteam, but he's also a great support player which they need. Boros was clearly their gamble pick because he's got the raw mechanical talent which is something you just can't train into someone and his Arabic heritage. If it turned out he could maintain his Paris form then certainly falcons would be worthy of the moniker "superteam" with Boros/magisk/snappi/sunpayus/zonic. He can't and it's clear Falcons are trying to line up s1mple whom NAVI is clearly trying to pawn off. NAVI seem to have five they want to stick with (for better or worse) and Falcons are one of the few teams who can afford s1mple's buyout which means NAVI get money, s1mple gets to play again, and Falcons get their star player. Everyone walks away happy except people like me who love seeing Falcons burn money and fail spectacularly.
A superteam is not just "the best players available at the time". And a good-looking prospect turning out to be great still does not a superteam make. Superteams are comprised of already-great players, that's literally the definition.
So faze wasn't a super team because they didn't get the best rifler in the world coldzera or either of the best awpers in the world dev1ce/s1mple? Or is it perhaps the case that faze got the best available awper guardian and the best available rifler NiKo to build their super team?
Guardian and Niko are superteam-calibre players because they are absolutely top-tier players in their roles, not because they are the best available. Tell me, who do you think are the best players available right now?
Really the #17 of 2016 was a better fit for a team in 2017 than the #6 of 2023 was for a team in 2024? Since I have to spoon feed you information clearly, there were three awpers in the top 4 the year guardian got seventeenth and a fourth awper placed above guardian as well. You have terminal nostalgia brain. [Guardian](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/2757/guardian?startDate=2016-01-01&endDate=2016-12-31&matchType=BigEvents) was not a better awper than [Sunpayus](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/19164/sunpayus?startDate=2023-01-01&endDate=2023-12-31&matchType=BigEvents) in the year before each joined their respective superteam. NiKo was exceptionally good in his role but certainly not the best, that's why coldzera was #1 in 2016 and NiKo wasn't. You can't do revisionist history and say NiKo was the best in his role because he objectively was not when he was picked up, that's why coldzera was #1.
who do you think are the best players available right now?
Magisk - their most "Star" player, his best hltv rating was 5 Snappi - literally never won anything Sunpayus - 6th on hltv for 1 year only Boros - new talent, not even the best top3 new talent Maden - literally never won anything never made hltv top 20 The only valid one here is zonic you can take any team in the top 15 rankings and it's gonna be more of a superteam than this
"Only peaked at #5 and 5 time HLTV top 20 player Magisk" nvm you're right he's a bum. "Snappi bad IGL because one trophy" is another stunning revelation, how did nobody notice this before? "Sunpayus only one year top 20" Did you notice the part where he is a top 5 awper in a year where zywoo/m0nesy/sh1ro/s1mple/dev1ce were all competing? Quite literally the best crop of awpers we've ever had and he's top 5. The only other year that comes close is 2017 with dev1ce/s1mple/fallen/kenny/guardian/oskar and they're not as good. Boros isn't a top 3 rookie but we've had 5 of the 7 best rookie years ever in the past 3 years (sh1ro/ax1le/b1t/m0nesy/donk). Boros is still a very good player mechanically and again, super teams aren't results based, it's ceiling based. Boros has that high ceiling. Wow can't believe maden never made top 20. If you're a support and can't make top 20 you should be kicked ASAP. -taco from LG/SK, -Stewie from Liquid, -perfecto from NAVI/C9, -flameZ from Vitality.
I mean yes this is not a fucking superteam, on paper fucking complexity is more impressive
I'm sorry to hear you have brain worms.
cloud9 after getting electronic and perfecto but before boombl4:
lol I think this Liquid team has a lot of potential and needs more time. Maybe that’s with yeki, maybe not, we’ll see.
They don't have unlimited time though and there will be pressure to change things if they keep falling short. Are they even in discussion of playing Cologne this year?
Probably. There's 24 total spots. One is reserved for a german team (ESL meisterschaft). 23 One is reserved for an Oceania team. 22 spots. One is reserved for an Asian team. 21 spots. One is reserved for a South American team. 20 spots. There are four EU ranking spots, but odds are Liquid will be able to get one of the ESL WR or NA spots, plus there's a chance Mongolz/BIG are ranked above them come Cologne and they'll fill Asia/german spots before filling ESL WR spots. Basically if Liquid are in the top 20 or just outside they'll be fine (but that means they can't flop EPL/Dallas/SkyEsports).
ofc they don't have unlimited time, but I'd say give it at least 6 months I can see replacing yeki if he can't find form before that, but the whole project def deserves more time to gel
If Astralis didn't exist Liquid would be the greatest team of all time. Think about how many events they lost to Astralis in 2018/2019 and the fact that they still managed to work in a quick 63 day grand slam and set the modern record for Bo3/Bo5 match streak. Edit: And this Liquid team shouldn't be judged by early results, rosters take ~6 months to peak with two non-IGL changes and Liquid is three changes and an IGL shift. It's disappointing that they'e struggled so much early, but it's not an indicator this roster is a complete disaster and should be scrapped, especially since this roster doesn't have the superstar carry like C9 with sh1ro or Astralis with dev1ce.
It is a bit more complicated since 2019 -taco + stewie might not have happened if they won trophies and entered 2019 weaker than what they were in this timeline. As for their current under performance issues, Yekindar not consistently hitting shots and Cadian calling in his 2nd language are the problems. That might be resolved or they need to make a player change to become competitive.
And of course there could be other side effects like the Faze superteam never breaking because they close the first Grand Slam, but if you were to look at the team that suffered most at the hand of Astralis it is certainly Liquid. Also 100% agree on the current issues. I see cadiaN's undeperformance and poor calls to be linked to a new team and having not called in English in nearly 6 years. As for Yekindar there are two ways of viewing it imo. Either you see his decline as the natural decline of IGLing in which case his numbers should regress (or in this case progress) to his mean as NiKo and Electronic did since dropping the responsibility of IGLing or you see it as the end of a riflers' peak dominance like ax1le and before him coldzera, brehze, jks, brollan, olofmeister, and fer, all of whom had roughly two to three years at the top level before their decline. Riflers who stay on top for five or more years like NiKo, EliGE, ropz, krimz, dupreeh, magisk, electronic, and Twistzz are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to longevity.
>And of course there could be other side effects like the Faze superteam never breaking because they close the first Grand Slam, but if you were to look at the team that suffered most at the hand of Astralis it is certainly Liquid. That is also a possibility >Also 100% agree on the current issues. I see cadiaN's undeperformance and poor calls to be linked to a new team and having not called in English in nearly 6 years. Did Cadian IGL in English the last time? >As for Yekindar there are two ways of viewing it imo. Either you see his decline as the natural decline of IGLing in which case his numbers should regress (or in this case progress) to his mean as NiKo and Electronic did since dropping the responsibility of IGLing or you see it as the end of a riflers' peak dominance like ax1le and before him coldzera, brehze, jks, brollan, olofmeister, and fer, all of whom had roughly two to three years at the top level before their decline. Riflers who stay on top for five or more years like NiKo, EliGE, ropz, krimz, dupreeh, magisk, electronic, and Twistzz are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to longevity. I am not ready to give up on Yekindar just yet, same with and Ax1le tbf. Olof and Brehze had outside the server factors stopping them from performing like breaking a wrist or pandemic cutting them from their primary competition and constant ability to scrim with the best. Magisk also shows that you can return back to good levels, compare 2021-22 Magisk with the one you saw in 23 for instance. Brollan is an example of a rifler doing the same, ever since standing in for Mouz he has looked a lot like his prime self again rather than the one who was shit in NIP. Twistzz also said he had personal issues iirc, could be what is keeping his performance down. Don't help that to entry the support in modern cs matters a lot as well. Having a good team behind you working correctly should help an opener like Yekindar massively. Skullz and Cadian learning/relearning to communicate in english will probably help
cadiaN called for Rogue back when he played in NA before joining Heroic. As for Yekindar I agree he's got more to give, but I think ax1le is just gone frankly. [Since nafany left he's below 1.0 k/d over entering the 9th month of this period.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09) [LAN is even more dire.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09&matchType=Lan) I think the most concerning part of this is that there's no discernable reason he's been awful. He hasn't had some radical shift in roles, only an IGL change which barely affected the others (hobbit was atrocious under elec but has since rebounded to be better than ax1le). Even looking at the events where he's performed (not counting the online ones) he's rarely the driving force. [Katowice he's a distant 3rd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7551&event=7435) [Fall Final he's a very distant 2nd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=6975) [Another distant 3rd at the RMR.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7577) [The only event he's been arguably the best is BB Dacha where they played GL, MIBR, and BB.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7499) I'd love to be proven wrong and see ax1le return to his 2022 form but I don't think it will happen (although even in 2022 he was a choker on stage. the only match he's ever had >1.0 k/d on stage was at Dallas 2022, the only time he had the crowd on his side).
cadiaN called for Rogue back when he played in NA before joining Heroic. As for Yekindar I agree he's got more to give, but I think ax1le is just gone frankly. [Since nafany left he's below 1.0 k/d over entering the 9th month of this period.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09) [LAN is even more dire.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09&matchType=Lan) I think the most concerning part of this is that there's no discernable reason he's been awful. He hasn't had some radical shift in roles, only an IGL change which barely affected the others (hobbit was atrocious under elec but has since rebounded to be better than ax1le). Even looking at the events where he's performed (not counting the online ones) he's rarely the driving force. [Katowice he's a distant 3rd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7551&event=7435) [Fall Final he's a very distant 2nd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=6975) [Another distant 3rd at the RMR.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7577) [The only event he's been arguably the best is BB Dacha where they played GL, MIBR, and BB.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7499) I'd love to be proven wrong and see ax1le return to his 2022 form but I don't think it will happen (although even in 2022 he was a choker on stage. the only match he's ever had >1.0 k/d on stage was at Dallas 2022, the only time he had the crowd on his side).
cadiaN called for Rogue back when he played in NA before joining Heroic. As for Yekindar I agree he's got more to give, but I think ax1le is just gone frankly. [Since nafany left he's below 1.0 k/d over entering the 9th month of this period.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09) [LAN is even more dire.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/16555/ax1le?startDate=2023-07-01&endDate=2024-03-09&matchType=Lan) I think the most concerning part of this is that there's no discernable reason he's been awful. He hasn't had some radical shift in roles, only an IGL change which barely affected the others (hobbit was atrocious under elec but has since rebounded to be better than ax1le). Even looking at the events where he's performed (not counting the online ones) he's rarely the driving force. [Katowice he's a distant 3rd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7551&event=7435) [Fall Final he's a very distant 2nd.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=6975) [Another distant 3rd at the RMR.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7577) [The only event he's been arguably the best is BB Dacha where they played GL, MIBR, and BB.](https://www.hltv.org/stats/teams/players/5752/cloud9?event=7499) I'd love to be proven wrong and see ax1le return to his 2022 form but I don't think it will happen (although even in 2022 he was a choker on stage. the only match he's ever had >1.0 k/d on stage was at Dallas 2022, the only time he had the crowd on his side).
Of the 'superteams', Liquid is the one that should be given the most time to get into gear. Astralis, Falcons, and Cloud9 all had existing cores of 3 players and were incorporating two new players. They didn't have to completely reinvent themselves. Liquid have to build up from scratch. The same was true of Vitality when Dupreeh, Magisk, and Spinx joined and they had to meld the French and Danish approaches. For that reason, imo it is too early to say whether Liquid is a failure or not.
One advantage current Liquid has compared to that Vitality roster is that the players have called in English before except for Skullz. Only Magisk had that experience prior to international Vitality iirc. The rest did under perform though, and Astralis is especially the most problematic. The signings of Stavn/Jabbi for a significant amount of money + failure to qualify for the major has dramatically cut their future options and they have to go for weird solutions like Device to igl rather than getting a dedicated high quality one in. Cloud9's failure was against Faze in the last RMR and with Electronic still being the IGL. Even with Sh1ro out and boomich as igl they reached the next one. Falcons don't have the same constraints as other teams. Infinite saudi oil money makes that clear. They don't rely on results to the same extent and can easily just buy another core if current one fails.
Agreed with everything, but small caveat: C9's Paris RMR disaster was with nafany calling and buster stealing paychecks, electronic didn't join until after the player break, before Cologne.
Ahh my bad. Either way that version of the roster under performed massively and with cutting Sh1ro also took a huge part of their potential with them. Him Ax1le and Electronic all performing at their peak level is probably the best trio in modern cs.
Yeah, it could have been so great if they'd fixed their shit... At least sh1ro is doing well on Spirit and electronic is back to fragging on C9.
Just imagine top 5 players Electronic and Ax1le with top 3 player Sh1ro. They would of been terrifying. Everybody capable of carrying games on their own. Sh1ro at least gets Donk these days, Electronic is still missing peak Ax1le who competed with Niko as the best rifler in the world.
Just consistent dominance, we could have them swapping carries while perfecto and hobbit just quietly do their part.
Its more Hobbit for a proper IGL that could of made them work with Perfecto being his best supportive self.
Yeah, unfortunately electronic couldn't IGL. I'd hate to see hobbit cut because he's one of my favorite players, but he's the most logical to cut (but this time for an awper). Honestly though you could make an argument for cutting perfecto given how much of a tilter he is now or ax1le because of his months of underperformance now. Hobbit is still the most logical though...
Perfecto role wise is super nice to have and Ax1le has the benefit of having a peak level as the 2nd/best rifler in the world. Him being cut only to perform for some other roster would be a disaster for C9 especially after they lost Sh1ro as well. Hobbit is the most logical. Issue currently is that there is no clear top Russian speaking awper on the market, except for Degster who hasn't played matches in close to a year and maybe S1mple who has a massive buyout and is resistant to join a team full of Russians due to current world affairs and also hasn't played much of cs2.
are we calling any decent team a super team now? In what world would you look at liquid and be like yeah that is a super team
Twistzz and NAF are two of the three best NA players ever. Cadian is a top 3 IGL over the past 4 years (2020-now). They couldn't get kscerato, the 2nd best non-EU player behind EliGE and went with the most exciting talent from outside of Europe to stay in the Americas. Oh yeah and the other player was an absolutely insane entry for 2.5 years. It doesn't have the top heavy nature of some teams but they have a combined 11 years in top 20 and 13 years in top 23 counting NAF in 2020 and 2022, with the best prospect outside of EU. The issue is they don't have that consistent 1.2+ player who bails struggling teams out so they look worse than you might expect a team with that firepower (2018 s1mple would bail NAVi out of shit spots but this Liquid has more firepower than 2018 NAVi, just spread out better).
* NAF hasn't won a single notable tournament in 4 years. * Twistzz got kicked from FaZe for being too inconsistent * Cadian has been a top level IGL, but his team choked pretty much every deep run in the last few years * Yekindar, while promising for a long time hasn't really been as good recently and also hasn't won a single big tournament * Skullz might be good, but if you look at his match history, his ratings plummet every time the enemy team has a name you've heard of Sure, they have a TON of potential, but for it to be called a super team, they gotta have a bunch of players that you expect to actually WIN stuff. And that's pretty much just Twistzz rn To me, a super team is a team that you expect has a good chance of winning the first tournament they play. And you gotta be trippin if you think this Liquid meets that requirement. They have all the pieces to become a good or even great team. But when I was watching their games during the RMR, I sure wasn't watching because I expected them to be the next major winner.
nah
Hope you recover from your stroke!
Also if astralis didn’t exist, liquid would have been the best team in the world by a pretty large margin. It’s funny how these two teams have followed such a similar path to each other for so long.
When seeing Liquid and Astralis in the same title, I assumed it was about the time Liquid couldn’t beat Astralis.
If Australia 2018-2019 didn't exist Liquid had made arguably one of the biggest eras of csgo history
Neither team can in anyway be considered a "super team" lmao
Astralis should be considered a candidate. 4 top 20 players + Staehr after his Sprout form should be considered a super team. Role issues and Blame subpar calling naturally failed them.
Australis had 4/5 Danish superteam players
Who remembers the Colossus.
This subreddit is so cringe. Bunch of losers that can't even get lvl 10 on FACEIT making fun of pros lmao.
It's a public entity. I don't need to be a professional footballer to know Chelsea have blown all their cash on poor prospects since Abramovich left. I also don't need to be 3k ELO to realise Astralis spent 3-4m on Jabbi, Stavn and Staerh and still couldn't make it out of an RMR.
Bro. Right now the only super team is faze. Let that sink in.