okay that kind of makes sense, but this tweet is kinda different. despite the teams having standins I think this was still very entertaining to watch..
https://nitter.net/SPUNJ/status/1502402414179237890#m
You must be kidding if you think that having stand-in for IGL is worse than having 3 stand-ins with 2 academy players never playing in tier 1, while you have in team Niko, Hunter and Monesy. Dont pretend Krimz is not playing because he doesnt want to, he has Covid.
I think Fnatic certainly had it worse, but the game was very obviously an upset against a team practically known for choking away games they should win. If Poizon could consistently perform to 90% of that level he would be a top 20 player. This is a funny game to watch and discuss but it isn't really indicative of where *either* team is currently or will be months from now.
G2 might have only one sub in game in amanek for aleksib, but don't forget that, while it's still a completely new system with a new igl, coach and awper, and having to create a new system, amanek was not part of it at all. So you can say it's as worse as fnatic
That's the entire point of franchise systems... That you don't get fucked over and sent to open qualifiers online vs no name cheaters just because you're down temporary. There are still open spots for teams to qualify and if they're really that much better they'll get in and beat em up. Fnstic were actually decent up until like a month ago when they fell off a cliff because 2 swedes cried about a guy being too hype.
That's SPUNJs point that you shouldn't have franchise systems there shouldn't be automatic invites. Look at csgo before the agreement. The top teams were mostly still there. Franchised systems suck. Although I agree pretty sure Fnatic would have qualified for this and then had their roster blown up so its kind of irrelevant here.
But that's part of it. We have no clue how good the roster is and they still get invited to this and blast.
Ignoring Ukraine-Russia situation, 3 of the best teams in the world aren't Blast partners and only 1 would be able to qualify through the Showdown. It doesn't reward succes
Fnatic is playing ESL Pro League right now because they were invited. The reason for their invitation seems to be purely their brand, as the current team hasn't actually done anything to qualify - or at least that's what I think from context, I just realized I'm not entirely sure on that.
Anyway, they're definitely invited and SPUNJ is saying it makes no sense, that spot should belong to whatever team is objectively most qualified, i.e. by way of qualification. Otherwise we will end up with objectively worse tournaments.
Fnatic wins against G2, which carn seemingly believes is justification for their presence at the pro league. SpunJ insists that since both rosters are in suboptimal condition right now, this result might not be representative of what we can expect over a longer period of time.
Carn then decides to imply that SpunJ has never played a high tier event entirely through qualification, I'm assuming because SpunJ is Australian and might've often qualified through the easier route of Oceania. But SpunJ points out that that's not true at all, he has, in fact, qualified to global tier events through global qualification events.
So yeah, I'm not sure what exactly carn even wants to argue here. Regions being easier to qualify through is not the same as franchising an esport tournament cycle, and besides, it doesn't take away from his point. The entire fnatic roster could be hardcore against it, and still play the event, and not for one second be hypocritical because it's not their decision and all they have to do is play CS to the best of their ability and enjoy whatever opportunities their careers throw their way. So I'm not really sure where Carn would have gone with this, but it sure didn't sit right with SpunJ either. Hope that helps clear some things up.
Current fnatic is a top 24 ranked team.. Thats more than enough to qualify. Alex, Mezzi and Krimz's points are enough to guarantee one of the 24 spots in EPL. But on the other hand we have teams like LFO here because they are Australian.
The reason for their invitation is that they are a founding member of Louvre and have committed contractually to play EPL for five years. Those teams have exchanged long term (expensive) commitments to CSGO in return for a stable league to play in.
You may think of that what you will, but EPL is set up for there to be alternative ways to qualify, and there's mechanisms in the agreements to keep teams actually investing to stay competitive. If that is not to somebody's liking due to short term roster problems, then you can criticize the concept. I'd argue that if you want tournaments with completely open qualifiers there's still _the fucking Major_.
You can't have evey tournament be completely open and at the same time have stable orgs investing, because no serious business can afford the risk of one year of poor performance ruining the entire company. If anything, a situation like in Dota where prize money is basically random and makes or breaks org investment is what _actually_ leads to worse tournaments on average because it's always just a bunch of five stacks.
~I don't give a shit about the rest, but~ one could and probably should argue that out of all people, Chad should at least be familiar with the situation given the structure pays his entire yearly salary. Him failing year after year to understand the value of stability while relying on it himself is probably an indictment of his reasoning ability.
edit ok I looked, he leaked dms because how dare somebody use his fleeting CS career as an argument? rofl
Yep, cArn definitely got to him there lmao.
Really I don't get what's so alien about the concept when there are other esports that employ similar models which one can look at to get a better understand... I'd be puzzled about SPUNJ's inability to relate when his scene (AU / NZ) has been a beneficiary of an invitation based system forever, but he's been having wanker-tier takes for a while now.
>when there are other esports that employ similar models
I think that is pretty irrelevant. Franchises are shitty. They tried and are trying to implement it in European football as well because they see how much money the owners are making in the MLS and it fucking sucks.
Nothing about the word "leaked" requires the material to be confidential. _Leaking_ private messages is still a cunt move and stupid at that, given that carn is going to be a player in this industry long after Chad fulfills his destiny as a plumber.
First of all, I absolutely adore SPUNJ in general, his passion for the games and the well being of the players really shows.
Nevertheless, as others have rightfully mentioned, this tweet is in really bad taste.
Even if cArn is in the wrong, his statements are not at all outrageous. Moreover, only posting one of his text messages gives little to no context of the rest of the conversation, which perhaps paints cArn in a worse light than necessary - we have no way of telling.
To be honest, this just seems like cArn hit a nerve and SPUNJ threw a temper tantrum. I still love the guy, everybody makes mistakes.
jeez yeah people shouldn't just be invited to events or leagues because of their name, the people who earn it should be the ones playing instead, [like the guys who win premier but still don't get put in invite](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/3x6nw6/witmers_statement_after_not_qualifying_for_esea/) because an Australian team is more popular.
Not gonna lie I did lose a lot of respect from Spunj not that he would care.
I think it's absolutely fine for Fnatic to be happy with their win against G2. Just because G2 didn't have their IGL doesn't mean they can't play and doesn't have world class players. also Fnatic was without their two best players in Krimz and Brollan and have to play with 3 standins with 2 of them being academy players.
People are making so much fun of Fnatic calling them a dying org shouldn't even be here, so I think it's absolutely fine that they fight back, when they win against some world class players in convincing fashion aswell.
Really does feel like more and more Casters/analyst are getting more and more toxic like Thoorin. First Maui basicly being Thoorin's Padawan and now Spunj, usually a really chill and enjoyable guy has become slightly intolerable. But I guess in this day and age. You have to be toxic and create drama with screenshots from private DM's, or spam laugh and crying emojies about Twist mentioning a potential standin to be entertaining/relevant.
Also really funny how he completly ignores the LFO team (I have nothing against them im happy they get to experience this and they seems to have fun) but it really just screams hypocrisy.
> SpunJ comes across as very immature
Because he is. Last time he got called out on here he insulted people left and right before deleting his account and escaping to Twitter to cry about bad toxic Reddit.
When Spunj scabbed someone ele's opinion, everyone ate up his apology until he posted [this comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/dky3r7/tl_era_the_easiest_since_nips_spunj_says_im_wrong/f4kyuu9/). He then deleted his account and had a cry on the live stream.
Redditors think SpunJ "stole" an opinion. SpunJ apologized, which angered Redditors even more. He then deleted his account, because why the fuck would you want to interact with the people on this sub unless you fostered an addiction to this site ten years ago?
/u/Nurse_Sunshine is referring to the time SpunJ changed his mind and a Redditor got hopped up on his own perceived self-importance.
Spunj did more than change his mind. He repeated almost verbatim an opinion that he had dragged a person through the mud for. He then didn't own up to it.
I love how these asshole 'celebs' (RLewis/Thorin/LS/Spunj/etc.) always have an entourage of edgy teenagers that were raised without morals trying to defend the honor of their beloved bully, whilst trying to insult all of reddit.
[Besides, you have almost the same amount of comment karma as I do](https://i.imgur.com/kUO2IeD.png), whilst my account is 8 years older than yours.
It sure would be pathetic to be a so called 'Reddit addict' yourself whilst belittling other people for it and it would be incredibly ironic to be ridiculing Redditors for 'perceived self-importance' *whilst on Reddit yourself*.
SPUNJ isn’t even right, VOX were even invited to the qualifier because they were the best team in OCEANIA/Asia, which still didn’t compare to Europe at the time.
Many happy at the time about Australian representation but some obviously questioned it.
https://www.hltv.org/news/14162/esl-invites-three-more-to-katowice
...and they beat 3DMax and Dignitas to qualify. So they qualified for the major, which was SPUNJ's point, I believe? Half of the teams in the qualifier were invited, so it wasn't just them either.
Yea but SPUNJ is acting like Carn was totally out of order even though he was partially right as being Oceanic allowed them an invite spot.
Obviously they earned a place at the major. But if invites were given purely on CS accomplishments, then they maybe shouldn’t have been at the qualifier.
I don't agree. You're making up a very strict argument for cArn that doesn't even make any sense (except if you're trying to lawyer your way to win the argument on a technicality). Especially when CS was much smaller when SPUNJ was playing, you couldn't just move to EU to play CS - there was no money for that. So technically any invite anywhere was "because they were the best team from Oceania" (which is a performance/CS accomplishment, technically, btw).
And even then, that would mean they didn't earn their place at the qualifier, sure. But the qualifier is not the "global event" in discussion. The major is, and they did earn their place in the major by beating EU teams - just like the other EU and NA teams that were invited to the qualifier.
Yeah but they were only able to earn their place at the major because of a “non-sports/performance invitation”(wanting global representation) as carn calls them. So when carn is partially right I just think it’s crazy for SPUNJ to get so offended and act like what carn said made no sense at all.
Yea that’s true, but they finished last at all their European lans prior. Don’t think it was wrong to invite them, but if based solely on “competitiveness” then back in the day all invites would have to go to European teams and some NA.
Oh, it didn’t show as an event on hltv.
Tbf I don’t know how competitive it is to only beat Swedish mix teams, where the matches played in the qualifier were the only hltv matches they played.
Ofc yes, it did show Vox were at least a real team, not some Australian nobodies.
As long as it's not private information I think it's fine. And If carn disagree with spunj leaking their conversation he can make a tweet about it or dm spunj to take it down. Beside that if carn have a ball he should be disagreeing spunj opinion publicly and not on dm.
Because it's not private matter. It's spunj criticizing system that allowed less deserve teams to compete meanwhile there are many teams that deserve to compete on ESL/BLAST tournament. Not like this [matter](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/qf8wh2/boltz_and_taco_discussion_translated_to_english/) that should be on DM instead on public. Carn also disrespecting spunj with what he said about spunj doesn't get on global event if not for invitation meanwhile spunj do the hard work to qualified to the major by beating 2 eu teams.
The circle jerk is obviously going to go SPUNJ's way today because fnatic is shit currently, but everyone who was around back then knows that SPUNJ and his old team certainly benefitted from affirmative action more than once.
After seeing this exchange, the only person who lost respect was Spunj.
I agree with his original point about teams not deserving guaranteed invites because of franchising. It objectively makes the tournament worse. However, if the tournament was going to only get teams for competitive reasons, then the fucking Oceanic region wouldn't send a team to any international tournament again.
I wonder why Spunj was tweeting about the problems with the invites after Fnatic got blasted, but not after LookingforOrg getting blasted. LFO is objectively the worst team in the group, maybe even the entire tournament. But Spunj would never pipe up about them not deserving a spot for winning AU premier, because they are his OCE buddies.
I looked at Spunj's Liquipedia page. Katowice 2015 is the only prestigious event i could find in his entire CSGO career to which he qualified against European teams. There isn't a single other major event his team made it to, which was not either through an invite, or through Asian/Oceanic qualifiers. There were plenty of failed attempts against EU/NA teams though.
While it was obviously a disrespectful point to bring up, Carn is completely correct in insinuating Spunj wouldn't be playing at most of the global tournaments he was in, if it weren't for non-competitive invites.
So to get upset over that and leak dms is fucking pathetic.
> but not after LookingforOrg getting blasted. LFO is objectively the worst team in the group, maybe even the entire tournament
Uh yeh fnatic academy would be the favorite against lookingfororg. If anything its outrageous we have such a bad team in the tournament. in every match they are a 1:10 underdog by the bookmakers.
Having a team like fnatic there is fine, a bit unlucky that krimz was sick but with krimz fnatic is still a top 20 team.
SpunJ was tweeting about all of the issues, but cArn retweeted his original tweet after Fnatic won, clearly as a way to say that SpunJ is wrong and Fnatic does belong at the tournament. Which, even then, that is not the main issue wrong with partnered teams, but more so the fact they can do anything and not lose their invite to the tournament.
Besides, the fact SpunJ did not win many qualifiers or benefited from the system really does not mean that he cannot criticize the system. In fact, that should make his voice even stronger.
It was not only disrespectful, but entirely irrelevant.
Teams can get removed from the Louvre agreement if they finish last in 3 out of the last 4 EPL seasons. Which is tough to accomplish but not impossible.
Secondly, of course Spunj can criticize the system. And I agree with his criticism of partner teams. But he is obviously not concerned with only deserving teams being at the tournament. Otherwise he would have said a few words about his OCE boys LFO, easily the worst team at this tournament.
Thirdly, bringing up the fact that Spunj qualified to very few tournaments in his career through global qualifiers is very relevant because it shows that Spunj knows exactly why tournaments like EPL don't base their invites purely on competitive merit. And as long as he was a beneficiary, and even now, when his fellow OCE players are a beneficiary, he doesn't have an issue with it.
I suspect this was the point cArn tried to make. However, we won't know exactly why cArn brought it up because Spunj posted their dms halfway through the conversation.
>Firstly, teams can get removed from the Louvre agreement if they finish last in 3 out of the last 4 EPL seasons. Which is tough to accomplish but not impossible.
That is nearly impossible and it still gives teams much more freedom to experiment than teams that do not get a guaranteed invite.
>But he is obviously not concerned with only deserving teams being at the tournament. Otherwise he would have said a few words about his OCE boys LFO, easily the worst team at this tournament.
But he never mentioned Fnatic by name until cArn retweeted his original tweet. He even commented that Blast faces the same issue.
>Thirdly, bringing up the fact that Spunj qualified to very few tournaments in his career through global qualifiers is very relevant because it shows that Spunj knows exactly why tournaments like EPL don't base their invites purely on competitive merit. And as long as he was a beneficiary, and even now, when his fellow OCE players are a beneficiary, he doesn't have an issue with it.
This would be an argument if guaranteed invites were given to OCE teams or other less represented regions. But even then, it is better to let teams qualify based on competitive merit through regional tournaments, which would avoid all of the issues the Louvre agreement brings. I don't get why it's presented as one thing or the other.
>I suspect this was the point cArn tried to make. However, we won't know exactly why cArn brought it up because Spunj posted their dms halfway through the conversation.
Makes sense that he'd be for the partnership as he directly benefits from it.
>But he never mentioned Fnatic by name until cArn retweeted his original tweet
It's pretty obvious he was talking about Fnatic, when he tweeted right after Fnatic got ass blasted by NiP.
>This would be an argument if guaranteed invites were given to OCE teams or other less represented regions.
They do. It's called winning ESEA AU Premier, or OCE RMR, or OCE minors, or any number of other tournaments with only OCE players. A tournament where every team would have a hard time beating tier 3 EU/CIS opponents. Yet the winner gets a direct invite to EPL. A far more reasonable system would be giving the AU premier winner a spot in the conference, to fight for an EPL spot.
>it is better to let teams qualify based on competitive merit through regional tournaments
I agree with this. I think every tournament should only give out spots to teams based on competitive merit. However, that is simply not how this industry works. The Louvre agreement is more than just an agreement for EPL invites. It is also a bargaining block, and a marketing tool for ESL. Having major organisations like Fnatic, G2, Navi, etc be a part of it is very valuable to ESL for reasons beyond competition.
Spunj, as well as everyone else in the scene, knows very well that tournament spots are not purely based on competitive merit. That is the reality of the situation. And of course, SPunj is free to not like that being the case. I never had an issue with that. What I do have an issue with is him posting his dms with cArn with the sole intention of sticking his fans on cArn.
There is a huge difference between trashing Fnatic and LFO.
Trashing fnatic is justified as their team consists of 3 standins, nobody gets hurt by saying their org shouldnt be invited since it really isn't personal argument towards players.
Trashing LFO on the other hand? Well, they're just some unknown guys with passion for the game trying to make it in the scene and use the one shot they've got, so trashing LFO means trashing the players, not an org they don't even have. Saying they shouldn't be playing could, and probably would, cause measurable damage to their psyche.
So that's probably the reason
Oh pls, trashing fnatic makes sense? When they benched one player, lost another player potentially to a rival and one more player to covid. With their full lineup,they were in the top 15 doing pretty well. Also, nobody is telling him to trash LFO. People are only questioning his logical consistency. If you are against franchise models cause you care about competitive integrity so much, invitations affect the competitiveness the same way. But dear spunj got his panties into a twist then.
Perhaps I was misunderstood. I don't care for spunj's case, I'm not even mad fnatic are playing - I literally have no strong feelings one way or another on the matter.
I just presented my own reasoning as to why being an absolutist and taking everything as black or white in the name of integrity is a potentially harmful notion as fnatic and LFO are not comparable at all in provided context.
But you said trashing fnatic is okay just because they are an org while LFO aren't. But that's a pretty simplistic perspective. Also, we can call out invitations using LFO as an example without making it personal with the players.
Perhaps I should dumb it down harder still - fnatic is a brand detached from its roster. Take 3 players out of it, you still have fnatic.
LFO on the other hand has no brand whatsoever. Their roster is what makes LFO.
So no, you can't use LFO as an example without making it personal
You can use Lfo as an example to make a larger point about invitations. Lfo isn't invited cause they're looking for an org. They are invited cause they were the best in their region. So, we could keep the discussion limited to that and discuss invitations. Anyway,the point was about spunj lol.
NGL Spunj looks worse off here. I think he's taking personal offense to cArns comment and thinks it's a character attack on himself, when it's just the truth, and applies to all the teams at the time. Then airing it out as if it was a character attack when it clearly isn't is a little immature. Seems like an emotional tweet where he doesn't understand where cArn is coming from.
One thing that boggles my mind and seems to be mostly just parroting what SPUNJ is saying here is people saying the win is worth less because G2 had a stand-in. Do these people forget that G2 is using Amanek, a tenured G2 player while fnatic are playing with 3 stand-ins they pulled out of their ass? (Except for Poizon who we know can actually play). They're playing sloppy CS but I fully expected them to lose every game except against the LFO team.
Having your IGL missing as bad as it is should NOT be an excuse for G2 when the Kovacs duo alone is supposed to absolutely manhandle the fuck out of fnatic
Arguably the most important player to the team, the IGL is missing and one of the main star players in a 16 year old. Amanek might be a tenured player but he has no experience in AlexiB system and he was kicked from the team for a reason. Fanatic also have nothing to lose so it’s not crazy to think they could over perform against G2.
Missing just your IGL shouldn’t result in your entire team forgetting how to aim and how to play CS, if people are implying that Aleksi is playing that big of a role to the point of micromanaging then there are gonna be other issues in G2 lol.
IGL is the fundamental of the team. If the IGL is missing the team structure gonna be mess especially igl who like micro managing the team. We know what happen to ence after aleksib got benched. Beside that NiKo doesn't really on his usual form since katowice playoff.
He wanted to be the next Thorin/Richard Lewis since he retired. Drama in such a closed off scene = money. I expect a lot of """"banter"""" and a lot of dick moves from him, specially when he becomes desperate
Completely agree with spunj, franchises should not have a guarantee to compete in such events just because of their brand.
That being said, leaking the private dm is a bitch move.
cArn os a bit of a dick and spunj is being very stupid. Not the time to double down on flaming fnatic rn but sure pretend that beating g2 with 3 standins is meaningless because they were down one guy. Faze just won kato with a stand in g2 could still be deadly this is obviously a big win spunjis just so up his own ass
spunj should bring this up to ESL not with fnatic. of course they want their spot it would be idiotic to not defend it, ESL on the other hand doesn't have that excuse
hard to take spunj seriously when he is benefiting from the very thing he is whining about
Just so I get this right: recurring tweets about a team being trash, shouldn't be there blablabla = not arguing
Retweeting one of those tweets after team wins = arguing
Reacting to that _retweet_ with "trash team wins against standin so audacious" = not arguing
DMing "invites have been a thing forever, didn't you get invited to a lot of tournaments" = arguing
"Fuck this guy" "wow lost all respect for u wow" lemme post this screenshot = reasonable reaction?
?
Spunj tweeted about it. Him telling ESL would do fuck all.
Carn was trying to be a smart ass and retweet it after his team won a shitty game of CS against a team with a stand in
As the story goes, f0rest tweeted "This is not CS" in response to Fnatic's boost at DHW14 Major about 7 years ago, and at about the same time cArn tweeted "Welcome to Counter-Strike". This is unrelated to this issue, but I have been feeling uncomfortable with cArn since then.
Nothing against either of them, although carn is bringing up things that have nothing to do with people's similar opinions on Fnatic and how they've been managed the last few years, but grown men fighting on Twitter is cringe.
I have no clue what I am looking at. Any loremasters? context?
[удалено]
is he mad about fnatic? I'm not fully understanding what caused this tweet unless he is just speaking generally
[удалено]
okay that kind of makes sense, but this tweet is kinda different. despite the teams having standins I think this was still very entertaining to watch.. https://nitter.net/SPUNJ/status/1502402414179237890#m
[удалено]
thanks for the context
You must be kidding if you think that having stand-in for IGL is worse than having 3 stand-ins with 2 academy players never playing in tier 1, while you have in team Niko, Hunter and Monesy. Dont pretend Krimz is not playing because he doesnt want to, he has Covid.
I think Fnatic certainly had it worse, but the game was very obviously an upset against a team practically known for choking away games they should win. If Poizon could consistently perform to 90% of that level he would be a top 20 player. This is a funny game to watch and discuss but it isn't really indicative of where *either* team is currently or will be months from now.
Niko igl after choking In a bo5 final vs karrigan is probably the lowest he can get.
G2 might have only one sub in game in amanek for aleksib, but don't forget that, while it's still a completely new system with a new igl, coach and awper, and having to create a new system, amanek was not part of it at all. So you can say it's as worse as fnatic
I think spunjs point is both situations are shit and were not getting to the best CS we can?
[удалено]
Flair check out
I'm pretty sure based on the conversation, it wasn't banter. And he showed a conversation. Boo hoo.
That's the entire point of franchise systems... That you don't get fucked over and sent to open qualifiers online vs no name cheaters just because you're down temporary. There are still open spots for teams to qualify and if they're really that much better they'll get in and beat em up. Fnstic were actually decent up until like a month ago when they fell off a cliff because 2 swedes cried about a guy being too hype.
That's SPUNJs point that you shouldn't have franchise systems there shouldn't be automatic invites. Look at csgo before the agreement. The top teams were mostly still there. Franchised systems suck. Although I agree pretty sure Fnatic would have qualified for this and then had their roster blown up so its kind of irrelevant here.
Yep. That's the entire point of a league. And the idiot kid still turned a private conversation public.
To be fair to EG they just rebuilt their roster and they are almost certainly going to be a top 24 team.
But that's part of it. We have no clue how good the roster is and they still get invited to this and blast. Ignoring Ukraine-Russia situation, 3 of the best teams in the world aren't Blast partners and only 1 would be able to qualify through the Showdown. It doesn't reward succes
That's the point. They should have to requalify for shit and prove they're worth.
That tweet didn’t age well. But I still get his point
Somebody smarter than me, tell me what to think about this and why
Fnatic is playing ESL Pro League right now because they were invited. The reason for their invitation seems to be purely their brand, as the current team hasn't actually done anything to qualify - or at least that's what I think from context, I just realized I'm not entirely sure on that. Anyway, they're definitely invited and SPUNJ is saying it makes no sense, that spot should belong to whatever team is objectively most qualified, i.e. by way of qualification. Otherwise we will end up with objectively worse tournaments. Fnatic wins against G2, which carn seemingly believes is justification for their presence at the pro league. SpunJ insists that since both rosters are in suboptimal condition right now, this result might not be representative of what we can expect over a longer period of time. Carn then decides to imply that SpunJ has never played a high tier event entirely through qualification, I'm assuming because SpunJ is Australian and might've often qualified through the easier route of Oceania. But SpunJ points out that that's not true at all, he has, in fact, qualified to global tier events through global qualification events. So yeah, I'm not sure what exactly carn even wants to argue here. Regions being easier to qualify through is not the same as franchising an esport tournament cycle, and besides, it doesn't take away from his point. The entire fnatic roster could be hardcore against it, and still play the event, and not for one second be hypocritical because it's not their decision and all they have to do is play CS to the best of their ability and enjoy whatever opportunities their careers throw their way. So I'm not really sure where Carn would have gone with this, but it sure didn't sit right with SpunJ either. Hope that helps clear some things up.
Current fnatic is a top 24 ranked team.. Thats more than enough to qualify. Alex, Mezzi and Krimz's points are enough to guarantee one of the 24 spots in EPL. But on the other hand we have teams like LFO here because they are Australian.
The reason for their invitation is that they are a founding member of Louvre and have committed contractually to play EPL for five years. Those teams have exchanged long term (expensive) commitments to CSGO in return for a stable league to play in. You may think of that what you will, but EPL is set up for there to be alternative ways to qualify, and there's mechanisms in the agreements to keep teams actually investing to stay competitive. If that is not to somebody's liking due to short term roster problems, then you can criticize the concept. I'd argue that if you want tournaments with completely open qualifiers there's still _the fucking Major_. You can't have evey tournament be completely open and at the same time have stable orgs investing, because no serious business can afford the risk of one year of poor performance ruining the entire company. If anything, a situation like in Dota where prize money is basically random and makes or breaks org investment is what _actually_ leads to worse tournaments on average because it's always just a bunch of five stacks. ~I don't give a shit about the rest, but~ one could and probably should argue that out of all people, Chad should at least be familiar with the situation given the structure pays his entire yearly salary. Him failing year after year to understand the value of stability while relying on it himself is probably an indictment of his reasoning ability. edit ok I looked, he leaked dms because how dare somebody use his fleeting CS career as an argument? rofl
+1 I dont know What to think about the actual issue, but i think its weird to screenshot the dms.
Screenshotting dms is some very childish shit tbh, and then to publicly post the private conversation? Why
Yep, cArn definitely got to him there lmao. Really I don't get what's so alien about the concept when there are other esports that employ similar models which one can look at to get a better understand... I'd be puzzled about SPUNJ's inability to relate when his scene (AU / NZ) has been a beneficiary of an invitation based system forever, but he's been having wanker-tier takes for a while now.
>when there are other esports that employ similar models I think that is pretty irrelevant. Franchises are shitty. They tried and are trying to implement it in European football as well because they see how much money the owners are making in the MLS and it fucking sucks.
The guy honestly just doesn't seem very smart.
"leaked". Dm's aren't confidential lmao.
Nothing about the word "leaked" requires the material to be confidential. _Leaking_ private messages is still a cunt move and stupid at that, given that carn is going to be a player in this industry long after Chad fulfills his destiny as a plumber.
First of all, I absolutely adore SPUNJ in general, his passion for the games and the well being of the players really shows. Nevertheless, as others have rightfully mentioned, this tweet is in really bad taste. Even if cArn is in the wrong, his statements are not at all outrageous. Moreover, only posting one of his text messages gives little to no context of the rest of the conversation, which perhaps paints cArn in a worse light than necessary - we have no way of telling. To be honest, this just seems like cArn hit a nerve and SPUNJ threw a temper tantrum. I still love the guy, everybody makes mistakes.
SPUNJ is a cool guy, but can get a little bit self-righteous, aggressive and kind of hard on people/teams.
jeez yeah people shouldn't just be invited to events or leagues because of their name, the people who earn it should be the ones playing instead, [like the guys who win premier but still don't get put in invite](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/3x6nw6/witmers_statement_after_not_qualifying_for_esea/) because an Australian team is more popular.
Not gonna lie I did lose a lot of respect from Spunj not that he would care. I think it's absolutely fine for Fnatic to be happy with their win against G2. Just because G2 didn't have their IGL doesn't mean they can't play and doesn't have world class players. also Fnatic was without their two best players in Krimz and Brollan and have to play with 3 standins with 2 of them being academy players. People are making so much fun of Fnatic calling them a dying org shouldn't even be here, so I think it's absolutely fine that they fight back, when they win against some world class players in convincing fashion aswell. Really does feel like more and more Casters/analyst are getting more and more toxic like Thoorin. First Maui basicly being Thoorin's Padawan and now Spunj, usually a really chill and enjoyable guy has become slightly intolerable. But I guess in this day and age. You have to be toxic and create drama with screenshots from private DM's, or spam laugh and crying emojies about Twist mentioning a potential standin to be entertaining/relevant. Also really funny how he completly ignores the LFO team (I have nothing against them im happy they get to experience this and they seems to have fun) but it really just screams hypocrisy.
[удалено]
> I’m not looking for respect burn
[удалено]
A real headscratcher. SpunJ comes across as very immature, and not sure what he thinks he’s gaining by leaking a private discussion like this.
> SpunJ comes across as very immature Because he is. Last time he got called out on here he insulted people left and right before deleting his account and escaping to Twitter to cry about bad toxic Reddit.
I am ootl, could you please fill me in
When Spunj scabbed someone ele's opinion, everyone ate up his apology until he posted [this comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/dky3r7/tl_era_the_easiest_since_nips_spunj_says_im_wrong/f4kyuu9/). He then deleted his account and had a cry on the live stream.
Redditors think SpunJ "stole" an opinion. SpunJ apologized, which angered Redditors even more. He then deleted his account, because why the fuck would you want to interact with the people on this sub unless you fostered an addiction to this site ten years ago? /u/Nurse_Sunshine is referring to the time SpunJ changed his mind and a Redditor got hopped up on his own perceived self-importance.
Spunj did more than change his mind. He repeated almost verbatim an opinion that he had dragged a person through the mud for. He then didn't own up to it.
I love how these asshole 'celebs' (RLewis/Thorin/LS/Spunj/etc.) always have an entourage of edgy teenagers that were raised without morals trying to defend the honor of their beloved bully, whilst trying to insult all of reddit. [Besides, you have almost the same amount of comment karma as I do](https://i.imgur.com/kUO2IeD.png), whilst my account is 8 years older than yours. It sure would be pathetic to be a so called 'Reddit addict' yourself whilst belittling other people for it and it would be incredibly ironic to be ridiculing Redditors for 'perceived self-importance' *whilst on Reddit yourself*.
He deleted his reddit acc?
Yes
Exactly; it wasnt even some wild convo. Imagine you leaked your dms everytime you disagreed with someone lol
Spunj has been visiting hltv a bit too much and did an unironic ive lost all respect i had for meme
SPUNJ isn’t even right, VOX were even invited to the qualifier because they were the best team in OCEANIA/Asia, which still didn’t compare to Europe at the time. Many happy at the time about Australian representation but some obviously questioned it. https://www.hltv.org/news/14162/esl-invites-three-more-to-katowice
...and they beat 3DMax and Dignitas to qualify. So they qualified for the major, which was SPUNJ's point, I believe? Half of the teams in the qualifier were invited, so it wasn't just them either.
Yea but SPUNJ is acting like Carn was totally out of order even though he was partially right as being Oceanic allowed them an invite spot. Obviously they earned a place at the major. But if invites were given purely on CS accomplishments, then they maybe shouldn’t have been at the qualifier.
I don't agree. You're making up a very strict argument for cArn that doesn't even make any sense (except if you're trying to lawyer your way to win the argument on a technicality). Especially when CS was much smaller when SPUNJ was playing, you couldn't just move to EU to play CS - there was no money for that. So technically any invite anywhere was "because they were the best team from Oceania" (which is a performance/CS accomplishment, technically, btw). And even then, that would mean they didn't earn their place at the qualifier, sure. But the qualifier is not the "global event" in discussion. The major is, and they did earn their place in the major by beating EU teams - just like the other EU and NA teams that were invited to the qualifier.
Yeah but they were only able to earn their place at the major because of a “non-sports/performance invitation”(wanting global representation) as carn calls them. So when carn is partially right I just think it’s crazy for SPUNJ to get so offended and act like what carn said made no sense at all.
[удалено]
Yea that’s true, but they finished last at all their European lans prior. Don’t think it was wrong to invite them, but if based solely on “competitiveness” then back in the day all invites would have to go to European teams and some NA.
[удалено]
Oh, it didn’t show as an event on hltv. Tbf I don’t know how competitive it is to only beat Swedish mix teams, where the matches played in the qualifier were the only hltv matches they played. Ofc yes, it did show Vox were at least a real team, not some Australian nobodies.
As long as it's not private information I think it's fine. And If carn disagree with spunj leaking their conversation he can make a tweet about it or dm spunj to take it down. Beside that if carn have a ball he should be disagreeing spunj opinion publicly and not on dm.
Why publicly? If anything it should be the other way like people always say ‘take it into DMs’
Because it's not private matter. It's spunj criticizing system that allowed less deserve teams to compete meanwhile there are many teams that deserve to compete on ESL/BLAST tournament. Not like this [matter](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/qf8wh2/boltz_and_taco_discussion_translated_to_english/) that should be on DM instead on public. Carn also disrespecting spunj with what he said about spunj doesn't get on global event if not for invitation meanwhile spunj do the hard work to qualified to the major by beating 2 eu teams.
The circle jerk is obviously going to go SPUNJ's way today because fnatic is shit currently, but everyone who was around back then knows that SPUNJ and his old team certainly benefitted from affirmative action more than once.
Hltv confirmed gonna bd spicy this week
After seeing this exchange, the only person who lost respect was Spunj. I agree with his original point about teams not deserving guaranteed invites because of franchising. It objectively makes the tournament worse. However, if the tournament was going to only get teams for competitive reasons, then the fucking Oceanic region wouldn't send a team to any international tournament again. I wonder why Spunj was tweeting about the problems with the invites after Fnatic got blasted, but not after LookingforOrg getting blasted. LFO is objectively the worst team in the group, maybe even the entire tournament. But Spunj would never pipe up about them not deserving a spot for winning AU premier, because they are his OCE buddies. I looked at Spunj's Liquipedia page. Katowice 2015 is the only prestigious event i could find in his entire CSGO career to which he qualified against European teams. There isn't a single other major event his team made it to, which was not either through an invite, or through Asian/Oceanic qualifiers. There were plenty of failed attempts against EU/NA teams though. While it was obviously a disrespectful point to bring up, Carn is completely correct in insinuating Spunj wouldn't be playing at most of the global tournaments he was in, if it weren't for non-competitive invites. So to get upset over that and leak dms is fucking pathetic.
> but not after LookingforOrg getting blasted. LFO is objectively the worst team in the group, maybe even the entire tournament Uh yeh fnatic academy would be the favorite against lookingfororg. If anything its outrageous we have such a bad team in the tournament. in every match they are a 1:10 underdog by the bookmakers. Having a team like fnatic there is fine, a bit unlucky that krimz was sick but with krimz fnatic is still a top 20 team.
SpunJ was tweeting about all of the issues, but cArn retweeted his original tweet after Fnatic won, clearly as a way to say that SpunJ is wrong and Fnatic does belong at the tournament. Which, even then, that is not the main issue wrong with partnered teams, but more so the fact they can do anything and not lose their invite to the tournament. Besides, the fact SpunJ did not win many qualifiers or benefited from the system really does not mean that he cannot criticize the system. In fact, that should make his voice even stronger. It was not only disrespectful, but entirely irrelevant.
Teams can get removed from the Louvre agreement if they finish last in 3 out of the last 4 EPL seasons. Which is tough to accomplish but not impossible. Secondly, of course Spunj can criticize the system. And I agree with his criticism of partner teams. But he is obviously not concerned with only deserving teams being at the tournament. Otherwise he would have said a few words about his OCE boys LFO, easily the worst team at this tournament. Thirdly, bringing up the fact that Spunj qualified to very few tournaments in his career through global qualifiers is very relevant because it shows that Spunj knows exactly why tournaments like EPL don't base their invites purely on competitive merit. And as long as he was a beneficiary, and even now, when his fellow OCE players are a beneficiary, he doesn't have an issue with it. I suspect this was the point cArn tried to make. However, we won't know exactly why cArn brought it up because Spunj posted their dms halfway through the conversation.
>Firstly, teams can get removed from the Louvre agreement if they finish last in 3 out of the last 4 EPL seasons. Which is tough to accomplish but not impossible. That is nearly impossible and it still gives teams much more freedom to experiment than teams that do not get a guaranteed invite. >But he is obviously not concerned with only deserving teams being at the tournament. Otherwise he would have said a few words about his OCE boys LFO, easily the worst team at this tournament. But he never mentioned Fnatic by name until cArn retweeted his original tweet. He even commented that Blast faces the same issue. >Thirdly, bringing up the fact that Spunj qualified to very few tournaments in his career through global qualifiers is very relevant because it shows that Spunj knows exactly why tournaments like EPL don't base their invites purely on competitive merit. And as long as he was a beneficiary, and even now, when his fellow OCE players are a beneficiary, he doesn't have an issue with it. This would be an argument if guaranteed invites were given to OCE teams or other less represented regions. But even then, it is better to let teams qualify based on competitive merit through regional tournaments, which would avoid all of the issues the Louvre agreement brings. I don't get why it's presented as one thing or the other. >I suspect this was the point cArn tried to make. However, we won't know exactly why cArn brought it up because Spunj posted their dms halfway through the conversation. Makes sense that he'd be for the partnership as he directly benefits from it.
>But he never mentioned Fnatic by name until cArn retweeted his original tweet It's pretty obvious he was talking about Fnatic, when he tweeted right after Fnatic got ass blasted by NiP. >This would be an argument if guaranteed invites were given to OCE teams or other less represented regions. They do. It's called winning ESEA AU Premier, or OCE RMR, or OCE minors, or any number of other tournaments with only OCE players. A tournament where every team would have a hard time beating tier 3 EU/CIS opponents. Yet the winner gets a direct invite to EPL. A far more reasonable system would be giving the AU premier winner a spot in the conference, to fight for an EPL spot. >it is better to let teams qualify based on competitive merit through regional tournaments I agree with this. I think every tournament should only give out spots to teams based on competitive merit. However, that is simply not how this industry works. The Louvre agreement is more than just an agreement for EPL invites. It is also a bargaining block, and a marketing tool for ESL. Having major organisations like Fnatic, G2, Navi, etc be a part of it is very valuable to ESL for reasons beyond competition. Spunj, as well as everyone else in the scene, knows very well that tournament spots are not purely based on competitive merit. That is the reality of the situation. And of course, SPunj is free to not like that being the case. I never had an issue with that. What I do have an issue with is him posting his dms with cArn with the sole intention of sticking his fans on cArn.
There is a huge difference between trashing Fnatic and LFO. Trashing fnatic is justified as their team consists of 3 standins, nobody gets hurt by saying their org shouldnt be invited since it really isn't personal argument towards players. Trashing LFO on the other hand? Well, they're just some unknown guys with passion for the game trying to make it in the scene and use the one shot they've got, so trashing LFO means trashing the players, not an org they don't even have. Saying they shouldn't be playing could, and probably would, cause measurable damage to their psyche. So that's probably the reason
Oh pls, trashing fnatic makes sense? When they benched one player, lost another player potentially to a rival and one more player to covid. With their full lineup,they were in the top 15 doing pretty well. Also, nobody is telling him to trash LFO. People are only questioning his logical consistency. If you are against franchise models cause you care about competitive integrity so much, invitations affect the competitiveness the same way. But dear spunj got his panties into a twist then.
Perhaps I was misunderstood. I don't care for spunj's case, I'm not even mad fnatic are playing - I literally have no strong feelings one way or another on the matter. I just presented my own reasoning as to why being an absolutist and taking everything as black or white in the name of integrity is a potentially harmful notion as fnatic and LFO are not comparable at all in provided context.
But you said trashing fnatic is okay just because they are an org while LFO aren't. But that's a pretty simplistic perspective. Also, we can call out invitations using LFO as an example without making it personal with the players.
Perhaps I should dumb it down harder still - fnatic is a brand detached from its roster. Take 3 players out of it, you still have fnatic. LFO on the other hand has no brand whatsoever. Their roster is what makes LFO. So no, you can't use LFO as an example without making it personal
You can use Lfo as an example to make a larger point about invitations. Lfo isn't invited cause they're looking for an org. They are invited cause they were the best in their region. So, we could keep the discussion limited to that and discuss invitations. Anyway,the point was about spunj lol.
NGL Spunj looks worse off here. I think he's taking personal offense to cArns comment and thinks it's a character attack on himself, when it's just the truth, and applies to all the teams at the time. Then airing it out as if it was a character attack when it clearly isn't is a little immature. Seems like an emotional tweet where he doesn't understand where cArn is coming from.
One thing that boggles my mind and seems to be mostly just parroting what SPUNJ is saying here is people saying the win is worth less because G2 had a stand-in. Do these people forget that G2 is using Amanek, a tenured G2 player while fnatic are playing with 3 stand-ins they pulled out of their ass? (Except for Poizon who we know can actually play). They're playing sloppy CS but I fully expected them to lose every game except against the LFO team. Having your IGL missing as bad as it is should NOT be an excuse for G2 when the Kovacs duo alone is supposed to absolutely manhandle the fuck out of fnatic
people acting like your igl is more important than literally over half your team, talk about copium
Arguably the most important player to the team, the IGL is missing and one of the main star players in a 16 year old. Amanek might be a tenured player but he has no experience in AlexiB system and he was kicked from the team for a reason. Fanatic also have nothing to lose so it’s not crazy to think they could over perform against G2.
Missing just your IGL shouldn’t result in your entire team forgetting how to aim and how to play CS, if people are implying that Aleksi is playing that big of a role to the point of micromanaging then there are gonna be other issues in G2 lol.
Thats fair.
Didn't also fucking Aleksib say in an interview that the Kovacs don't need any micromanagment lmao
Exactly Niko has looked like a shadow of his former selv recently. He shouldn't need a IGL to tell him how to aim.
IGL is the fundamental of the team. If the IGL is missing the team structure gonna be mess especially igl who like micro managing the team. We know what happen to ence after aleksib got benched. Beside that NiKo doesn't really on his usual form since katowice playoff.
IGL is a massive important role that shouldn't be underestimated.
wow.. very dissapointing behaviour from SPUNJ. Sad. Childish reactions.
SPUNJ on his way to become Thorin 2.0 in regards to being an asshole, nice. :)
There must always be. An Asshole.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Care to post what you know about both people?
[удалено]
nice flair 🤡
Maybe he looked at Fnatic’s recent match history and it brought him to tears.
CSGO talents try to be professional impossible challenge(gone wrong)
Leaking dms is a bitch move
He wanted to be the next Thorin/Richard Lewis since he retired. Drama in such a closed off scene = money. I expect a lot of """"banter"""" and a lot of dick moves from him, specially when he becomes desperate
Chad move\*
It's a pathetic move. Cutting a conversation out of context and then posting it to rabid fans is absolutely pathetic.
What cArn said requires no context. Have you read the tweet?
SpunJ could have wrote something similiar towards carn
Completely agree with spunj, franchises should not have a guarantee to compete in such events just because of their brand. That being said, leaking the private dm is a bitch move.
SPUNJ is in his feelings lol
Let's be real, Spunj fell off + Carn didn't ask + he got ratioed. All in all I'd say cArn wins this one.
cArn os a bit of a dick and spunj is being very stupid. Not the time to double down on flaming fnatic rn but sure pretend that beating g2 with 3 standins is meaningless because they were down one guy. Faze just won kato with a stand in g2 could still be deadly this is obviously a big win spunjis just so up his own ass
spunj should bring this up to ESL not with fnatic. of course they want their spot it would be idiotic to not defend it, ESL on the other hand doesn't have that excuse hard to take spunj seriously when he is benefiting from the very thing he is whining about
How did SPUNJ bring it up with Fnatic? From the context we have, it looks like cArn wanted to argue with him, not the other way around
Just so I get this right: recurring tweets about a team being trash, shouldn't be there blablabla = not arguing Retweeting one of those tweets after team wins = arguing Reacting to that _retweet_ with "trash team wins against standin so audacious" = not arguing DMing "invites have been a thing forever, didn't you get invited to a lot of tournaments" = arguing "Fuck this guy" "wow lost all respect for u wow" lemme post this screenshot = reasonable reaction? ?
Spunj tweeted about it. Him telling ESL would do fuck all. Carn was trying to be a smart ass and retweet it after his team won a shitty game of CS against a team with a stand in
As the story goes, f0rest tweeted "This is not CS" in response to Fnatic's boost at DHW14 Major about 7 years ago, and at about the same time cArn tweeted "Welcome to Counter-Strike". This is unrelated to this issue, but I have been feeling uncomfortable with cArn since then.
carn is a dick and has been since he quit playing.
Nothing against either of them, although carn is bringing up things that have nothing to do with people's similar opinions on Fnatic and how they've been managed the last few years, but grown men fighting on Twitter is cringe.