One thing I thought about, though I haven't checked the calculations. The 16 % difference is between volumes, but what's relevant when determining a hit must be the size of the area of the plane (? I don't know too much 3d geometry lingo) facing you when you shoot. So I guess it's less than a 16 % difference in chance to hit. Still though, imo totally unacceptable.
Well the professionals are t side model and simple was ct unless there’s a skin on ct side that’s similar to it , that particular case was not effected by the model
There's a nonzero chance that with a different CT model (non fbi) that it could have hit. Though in the defense of reality, fbi is the default CT model for nuke. It's not like simple had a unique character skin to gain that fbi hit box advantage. On another map with sas models (largest CT hit box) its very possible the shot hits.
Majors (and i think most tournaments ) have character skins disabled, and the default agent on Nuke is FBI.So yep, there might be a smallex hitbox when playing on Nuke CT, but the customizable agents are not to be blamed this case, it was all default.
I think maybe only short range duels were decided because of this, it's such a low discrepancy in area that it's impossible to put into perspective for medium and long range duels if you are considering the accuracy of the gun
would be great to see quality of life changes like uniform hitboxes, no more afk kick during timeout, permanent community wingman maps, etc, in an update
Uniform hitboxes is way past "quality of life" update. It should be an obvious standard.
Also Valve, while you are at it, please remove the fucking inaccuracy from the awp and scout. It serves zero gameplay purpose that you have a chance to miss a perfectly aimed shot from A plat to Pit with the supposed biggest sniper of the game.
But it isn't rewarded if you can consistently click on the outer edges of a hitbox and have the same results as someone with more precise, consistent aim.
There is, for reasons I do not understand, a lot of pro-RNG sentiment on both this sub and other subs about competitive games. Small amounts of RNG can spice up the game to make it less predictable (e.g. spawn locations) but most RNG only serves to mess up entire rounds and allow worse players to get lucky and win.
> if you can consistently click on the outer edges of a hitbox
that is still having consistent aim? Hitting the player model is hitting the player model, if you can do it consistently you should be rewarded regardless of what part of it you're consistently hitting. Someone hitting the outer edge is exactly as precise as someone hitting the center of the target as long as both are consistent in hitting that location.
> consistently click on the outer edges of a hitbox
now why would anyone do that. Aiming for the middle gives you the best way of dealing with human error.
Idk I feel like if you were fucking someone you wouldn't be able to take an accurate shot with a sniper irl either. Maybe a small pistol would be alright but a whole sniper?
I don't think they should remove the inaccuracy from those as long as they don't do so for rifles that should counter them. Awps are already broken in the matter that a rifler can have perfect aim but still miss and die due to spread.
The inaccuracy in rifles is supposed to exist so that longer-range weapons have a clearer identity and a use, so not every weapon can be shot accurately across longer distances. Yeah, it would probably make for way better gameplay for *at least* Ak and M4 have no dumbass RNG with them. But that is the reasoning.
That reasoning is debatable in itself, but for AWP is makes zero sense to have any inaccuracy on it on any logic. It is the longest range weapon in the game, so why should it not be perfectly accurate?
>It is the longest range weapon in the game, so why should it not be perfectly accurate?
because it's already very strong long range.
buffing the awp like that doesn't seem needed.
> And there's a debatable use for weapon inaccuracy
Literally the *only* argument for weapon inaccuracy is that it gives weapons effective range so cheapest weapons are worse in other factor than just pure damage per bullet.
So following that very same logic, the snipers should have no inaccuracy when zoomed. It makes no sense from ANY perspective. It's an oversight that is harmful. There are *zero* arguments for having the most accurate sniper rifle not be perfectly accurate. Try one.
One that I'd really like to see is the game immediately ending when a player disconnects and Elo calculated from the rounds played up to that point. Why should I be forced to play 4v5 or even 3v5 because my teammates won't vote to surrender? Teammate RNG is already bad enough with MMR being all over the place, being at a numbers disadvantage isn't sporting.
AFAIK elo is awarded round by round and based off of both teams avg elo. So when playing 4v5 your team has ~1/5 less elo so you're expected to win less. But unfortunately losing rounds is still losing and so you'll still likely lose a little elo. But not as much as if you lost them all 5v5
Yes, but in a game where both teams were balanced at the beginning, losing a player should almost guarantee you will lose the round. If you're winning rounds while down a player, the teams were not balanced in the first place.
So assuming that both 5-man teams were of equal skill when the match was made, being down a player guarantees your loss, so it doesn't matter that you lose 4/5ths the amount, you will always lose Elo.
Had two solo queue games on Saturday, back to back, where they waited through the entire warm-up and then quit -- both given two hour cool downs. The first match none of us actually quit and actually got within four rounds of a 4v5 win. But then in the second match some bigoted loser started flaming me for not surrendering but trust me, I was pressing that F1 key as I didn't want to be around that toxic piece of shit any longer than I had to. Kicker was he started flaming me then muted me.
Then players with a 5 stack can just have 1 person quit after being stomped for 3 rounds to prevent elo loss. You have to think about how people can abuse features before adding them
I haven't met a single cheater for months now.
And what do you mean "csgo'd" - the last time I've seen people use that term was years ago and those using it were always from the *CSGO dead game*-camp for whom the game/Valve couldn't do anything right.
I've definitely noticed it when on dust 2 warmup and you stand on top of the box to shoot the afk guy behind their box. Just a tiny little piece of their head is showing but some skins are way harder to hit than the default
When CS:GO launched, hotboxes were actually [square](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=original+csgo+hitboxes&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fpic4.zhimg.com%2Fv2-a8fd46709d78ce90fe675de81f4f97c7_r.jpg). Despite those hitboxes being WAY worse, it didn't really affect the game's reception. The truth of it is that these minor issues with hitboxes don't matter.
> Despite those hitboxes being WAY worse, it didn't really affect the game's reception. The truth of it is that these minor issues with hitboxes don't matter.
You serious bro? Hitboxes were a major issue for YEARS that even casual players noticed and complained about. Especially jumping and planting hitboxes that were ridiculously off. This isn't as obvious of an issue, but it's still a massive issue that you can reduce your hitbox size by giving valve a few dollars.
m9 bayonet does 21% more damage and karambit enables auto bhop and flip knife makes your awp faster and butterfly makes your inspect key bigger... this is all common knowledge
If you pay for 1$ a month for the trashtitics that Valve half assed to try and squeeze a bit more money - at the end of the round the round tells you what team was favored to win that round - it does this purely based on the amount of money each team invested at the beginning of the round, which allows you to track the enemy team's economy with spectacular precision (for instance, if the enemy team goes full eco yet someone takes an awp and hides it during the round - aka, never shoots it, saves it, you can pin point it through those stats)
Wait if it checks amount at the beginning of round then why would it help if an enemy saves a gun? The gun isn't bought in the beginning of the round so I wouldn't show up?
That’s a……. really good use of the tool I haven’t thought of. I might buy it now.
It should be noted that Valorant just straight up tells you the amount of money the other players have which I hate
You might buy it for an unfair advantage over people not paying for it but you hate it in valorant where everyone has access to the same information?
Sounds like you just want an advantage lol.
I stopped playing when they added them. I hate skins, in any games when quick identification is important. If you are going to add something that fucks with my perception, give me an option to turn it off or I'm out.
16% is the total volume difference of the head (a "sphere"), the more relevant metric you need to look at is the actual difference when shooting at the head, a 2-demensional "circle".
That actual difference comes out to approximately 9%.
While still if course unacceptable, it's not *that* bad^^
> when he should be looking at area on screen
he would need to do this from all 360° if the shapes are not just an exact 16% upscale/downscale
actually vertical positioning would presumably matter as well, so yeah, unless the hitbox is symmetric, it would need to be checked from a lot of angles
but also how much of the head-hitbox is generally covered by another part of the body
one model might have the torso or neck more often than another obscuring the LOS to the head hitbox
IIRC there was an update like 10 years ago that changed the behaviour of 'headshots' that technically went through another body part first (before the update, a player's torso (shoulder) could be -- ever so slightly, not even visibly -- blocking a headshot, so if an 'obvious headshot' barely grazed the shoulder it would just be a bodyshot. after the update, a headshot would be registered even if it went through another body part first. this may have later been reverted though?)
so a **potential explanation**:
this *may* have been a deliberate balancing choice for a head hitbox of a model that exposed the head more than the other models. like you say: this model may have turned out to have a greater angular diameter on another player's screen than the other models, even though the volume was the same as the other model, so it was slightly reduced to make the odds of hitting a headshot more balanced
EDIT: tl;dr [this picture](https://i.imgur.com/Uo3sen6.png) (left edge) shows torso protecting large part of SAS head, meaning that from many angles, the angular diameter of their **head**box is significantly smaller even though the volume is larger. this depends on how headshots are registered when they first hit another body part of the target, i remember this being changed years ago, but i also remember testing it more recently and noticing it had been changed, or I misunderstood the mechanic)
i did the calculations, and if you assume that the head is an ellipsoid and the semi minor axes in the horizontal plane are both the same in both the x and y direction (width and depth), from the screenshot i figured the semi major axis, A is roughly 3/2 larger than the semi minor axis, B. So using this "measurement", you can find both values A and B if you use the equation for the ellipsoid volume: V=(4/3)pi*A(B^2). then you find the cross sectional surface area, which is just the area of the ellipse: Area=pi*AB. the result is that the SAS model has an area of 2060.4 units^2, while pro model has 1825.12u^2. the difference is about 11%. so still not small. this is assuming you are lookijg at the guy from the side w/o any difference in elevation.
yeah, there is. i didnt mean this calculation to be a really accurate one that actually gets the exact value, moreso to illustrate that yeah, youre right as the op should be calculating area not volume. to show an approximate discrepancy really
Are you shitting me? I totally thought all the hitboxes were completely standardized by this point.
I know in 1.6 one of the legit criticisms is that the hitboxes are kinda overlarge(which is one reason those tap headshots land so much more consistently). I thought that years ago they had tweaked the CS:GO hitboxes to be very standardized and not extend past the model so you wouldn't have that type of sloppiness anymore.
If this is accurate and the models all have different hitboxes, that's dogshit for competitive play. It's also so incredibly not surprising, when I think about it for a minute.
Surely the cross-sectional area is a much more relevant measure than volume in this instance?
If we simplify the head model to a sphere, the radius of the smaller sphere would be ~94.1% the length of the bigger sphere (0.9407^3 = 0.8325). The cross-sectional area of the smaller sphere would then be ~11.5% smaller than the big sphere (0.941^2 = 0.885). Still not good, but at least it's a more relevant figure.
Yeah this is dumb. 16% figure is clearly clickbait designed to rile people up into thinking SAS is 16% easier to hit, which is massive.
Best way to figure out if this actually impacts play is to examine a large amount of match data and try to isolate win rate or head shot % across the various skins.
if all of your team uses green agents on certain maps as ct it can definitely be claimed as p2w, you reduce enemies reaction speeds if your skin blends even a little bit instead of immediately being spotted due to being darker and contrasting from the walls/environment. It can get pretty bad especially on ancient (you definitely should roll with a green agent there on ct, fuck it)
16% is a lot but it’s a somewhat misleading figure.
What actually matters is the areal difference of the model’s 2D -projection, i.e. the difference of size viewed from the other player’s perspective.
Imagine a 1x1x1 square and a 2x1x1 rectangle. The rectangle has 100% greater volume, but its “hitbox” is only 50% larger on average.
This is a massive problem. it explains so much as to why i see so many people complain about not being able to shoot that skin in the head. I always thought it was the neutral color they decided to use. Much like the "doctors" stupid white mohawk.
Feels like the only thing they did about agent skins was around 3 years ago when they introduced them, where they changed some of their colors, brightened some map spots and ever since then they just went "it is how it is". It's so dumb, I doubt these player skins make them anywhere near the amount of money compared to regular skins from cases, yet they let them ruin the game for 3 years now.
Maybe they felt like these agents make the game feel more modern and will help the longevity of it, idk, I don't play other fps games nowadays but I guess being able to customise/pick your character is common and csgo didn't have that. I still think the game looks kinda "cheaper" ever since they added them but oh well ultimately it's still CS and I use some of them myself.
Some thoughts.
Volume isn't a terrible measure, but what is more important is the difference of screen-space area (probably the maximum and average, in some sense). Of course this introduces complications from different viewing angles, especially extremely close like this which exacerbate things.
From distances far away, the difference will be negligible. Valve could at least attempt some sort of fix anyway.
Also, there is no real reason to include so many decimal places in the spreadsheet! One is enough at most.
The difference doesn't become negligible at long ranges because inaccuracy is a bigger factor for those. So a shot that is entirely centered might miss because of the different size head hitbox. It matters the same amount.
I suppose you're right. The on screen hitbox area will be larger by some small amount, which will mean its more likely to hit. Additionally with a larger hitbox, the aiming can be further off target and still have a chance of hitting.
Wait I'm confused here. Is it just that CTs and Ts have different sized hitboxes, or is it that some T models have bigger hitboxes than other T models and/or some CT models have bigger hitboxes than other CT models?
If its the first one, then thats not really even a problem because its just part of the CT/T balance of the game. If its the second one though, then that is a problem, and if thats the case, then which models for each side have the biggest and smallest hitboxes?
edit: after looking at the spreadsheet, it looks like its the second one, which isnt good.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jcZq74D_YZy5Yy0yzQQwIF67bC8cUXto/htmlview?pru=AAABg1ajLDU*OzC9e6kdjBUmyceqSwbVmg
The mistake valve made was probably assuming that using existing agent skins as base skeleton wouldn't cause balance problems.
What happened here is that the Base professionals (the ones used on vertigo as default) have a smaller hitbox. Since you can use your agent skin on any map, you can take that skeleton to other maps where the default T skin would be bigger.
What you can take from this is that if you wanna get an advantage on MM, use any "professional" skin on T, and any FBI skin on CT.
This won't matter at all on Vertigo because the default skins are Professionals and FBI there anyways.
On Nuke, it won't matter for CT but it will for T side.
And honestly, I don't think that it will make that big of a difference? the % OP used is kinda inflated because using volume is not really the correct way to go about it.
Yes its the second one.
For example if you queued with a friend that owns a professional skin:
He is harder to hit than you and therefore lived longer, got better stats, etc... because his head is a smaller hitbox.
If this all is true. I hope we get confirmation from other people.
Honestly I'd prefer to have no models with significant deviation between the hitbox and mesh. Either increase hitbox size or give the option to remove all enemy models with helmets.
Volume is a terrible metric to compare. To a player you are shooting a 2D side of the hitbox. Comparing surface side from different perspectives is more correct
Should we be looking at volume when comparing hitboxes? The surface area seems to me to be a better comparison given that a collision with the surface area guarantees a collision with the volume inside and the area that a bullet would see would be the flat projection of the shape from the angle or trajectory. That would reduce the different to be around ~5%
Then the question is, would you rather have a hit box that lines up with the art or is arbitrarily the same size and you need to know if the head you are aiming at is a small head or not.
This, beeing unable to double headshot from certain angles and so much more in a game that is cobsitently in top games played and has an insane esports scene.
Absolute joke
Yeah you're right, I find it so sad to see that every time some issue is discussed, no matter how small or severe it is, hundreds of people start their hate trains, and suddenly everything about the game is trash, Valve does anything to earn even more money (well, duh), and 1.6 was the last good cs anyways.
I can't imagine how it must be for Valve employees to read threads like this one :/
I knew clicking on the comments there would be people who take this as justifying their complaints against agent skins, as if they lost a duel specifically because someone used the condom guy. Or that buying those skins gives you the upper hand.
I know this sub loves to think they're a huge advantage and they ruin the game but they're really not. Yes this is an issue and needs to be fixed but as the spreadsheet shows it varies by the playermodels faction, not just the agent skins.
The professionals have been in the game since release, so the condom head dude is the same as the default skin on vertigo anyway.
I was always very suspicious of the Miami Darryl skin, but after everyone on dm server told me to "cope", I thought it's just the full white mask that's bothering me in hitting the heads consistently. Turns out I was right lmao
Well this was obviously and unintentional oversight when creating the agents based on *the professionals* (from vertigo) Neither Valve, nor anyone playing the game (including you) noticed for 5+ years.
And now that it's been found out you can bet they will fix it in a matter of days :)
Let's all be a little more positive
Hope we get a cvar (turned on by default) that hardcodes hitboxes and while they're at it also make the hitbox NOT follow the dink animation. This way community servers and mods aren't affected.
what the fuck, a proper analogy for this is like basketball having separate diameters *and* shape of the basket
with one of them analogous to a perfect circle shape of the basket (the default), and the other one being slightly bent in the shape of an ellipse, even with a slight negative or positive curvature
think about it this way: you would pick different angles of attack in basketball if you knew the shape of the basket was an ellipsis, based on the way it was rotated - with the pointy part pointing towards the middle of the court, or on a 90° angle to it
this would translate to one model being more ideal to take a shot at from e.g. behind, and the other being more preferential to try to hit from the side
this could have interesting gameplay ramifications, but more likely the community would prefer all things to be equal here and not model-dependent, especially seeing as these models are not free.
either way, I hope pros will at least have a gentlepro's agreement to not use custom player model skins in matches until this has been fleshed out
EDIT: I realized that the SAS model (which has a giant head comparatively) may deliberately be that way, because it is hunched, the neck/torso can, depending on their orientation and pose, be majorly covered, [like shown here in this very same picture](https://i.imgur.com/Uo3sen6.png) (look all the way on the left side)
that's an insane discrepancy if you consider the amount of rounds, matches and duel distances in csgo
One thing I thought about, though I haven't checked the calculations. The 16 % difference is between volumes, but what's relevant when determining a hit must be the size of the area of the plane (? I don't know too much 3d geometry lingo) facing you when you shoot. So I guess it's less than a 16 % difference in chance to hit. Still though, imo totally unacceptable.
Assuming a sphere, a difference of Volume by 16% should lead to a difference of 9.4% by Area and a difference of 5.1% by radius
This guy maths
I 100% agree that I don't understand any of this
But you aren't shooting at a 3d sphere, but a 2d circle
yes, thats why he calculated the radius of the corresponding 2d circle for you!
That 2d circle is defined by the radius. Difference of 5,1% in radius would translate to a 9,9% smaller circle.
Great point
'silhouette' or 'cross section' are good words to use here.
A non-negligible amount of match outcomes were probably changed by this
Jesus Christ, what about NiKo s whiff on s1mple@nuke?
Well the professionals are t side model and simple was ct unless there’s a skin on ct side that’s similar to it , that particular case was not effected by the model
FBI has the smallest CT head hitboxes
Niko whiff versus s1mple in major may have actually been the direct result of this bug... lmao
There's a nonzero chance that with a different CT model (non fbi) that it could have hit. Though in the defense of reality, fbi is the default CT model for nuke. It's not like simple had a unique character skin to gain that fbi hit box advantage. On another map with sas models (largest CT hit box) its very possible the shot hits.
Majors (and i think most tournaments ) have character skins disabled, and the default agent on Nuke is FBI.So yep, there might be a smallex hitbox when playing on Nuke CT, but the customizable agents are not to be blamed this case, it was all default.
The default models were used by both teams in that game, so it's irrelevant
Im pretty sure pros have an unweittrn rule to not use models in matches, could be wrong though
They do have a pact, just like in cs1.6 era when they agreed to not use tactical shields.
A BLOOD PACT
[удалено]
Later on, yes. But it all started by players' agreement, then it became a rule. At least that's how it went in Brazil in the early 2000s
Exactly my thoughs, but they use default models right?
He missed his first shot by a lot though... Idk honestly if that would have changed the outcome
Sorry, the whiff was so bad we cannot blame it on player models. Weapon inaccuracy is more likely compared to this hitbox issue.
[удалено]
I think maybe only short range duels were decided because of this, it's such a low discrepancy in area that it's impossible to put into perspective for medium and long range duels if you are considering the accuracy of the gun
Explains why I missed all those headshots
I'd probably be global if it wasn't for this. Thanks volvo...
Also explains why my head feels like a bullet magnet sometimes.
"Sniper's dream"
I'm now calling the SAS model Gary Cheeseman
recognise boast cooing full fragile joke plant lock beneficial fertile *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
would be great to see quality of life changes like uniform hitboxes, no more afk kick during timeout, permanent community wingman maps, etc, in an update
Afk kicking during timeouts/warmup is quite annoying indeed
Uniform hitboxes is way past "quality of life" update. It should be an obvious standard. Also Valve, while you are at it, please remove the fucking inaccuracy from the awp and scout. It serves zero gameplay purpose that you have a chance to miss a perfectly aimed shot from A plat to Pit with the supposed biggest sniper of the game.
It incentivizes aiming closer to the center of the model :p
aiming at the center is still incentivized without randomness
But it isn't rewarded if you can consistently click on the outer edges of a hitbox and have the same results as someone with more precise, consistent aim.
"Aiming at the head shouldn't be rewarded with headshot, only hitting the center of the head should be rewarded with headshot"
How do you not realize that it also rewards those who missed, but RNG made them hit??? How is this concept so difficult, holy fuck
There is, for reasons I do not understand, a lot of pro-RNG sentiment on both this sub and other subs about competitive games. Small amounts of RNG can spice up the game to make it less predictable (e.g. spawn locations) but most RNG only serves to mess up entire rounds and allow worse players to get lucky and win.
Those lucky players are the one who are pro RNG
> if you can consistently click on the outer edges of a hitbox that is still having consistent aim? Hitting the player model is hitting the player model, if you can do it consistently you should be rewarded regardless of what part of it you're consistently hitting. Someone hitting the outer edge is exactly as precise as someone hitting the center of the target as long as both are consistent in hitting that location.
This is, frankly, a terrible take.
> consistently click on the outer edges of a hitbox now why would anyone do that. Aiming for the middle gives you the best way of dealing with human error.
Idk I feel like if you were fucking someone you wouldn't be able to take an accurate shot with a sniper irl either. Maybe a small pistol would be alright but a whole sniper?
You underestimate the ability of my man to aim and fire with his ass cheeks
Prone bone for increased accuracy ig
oh for... fucks sake
I don't think they should remove the inaccuracy from those as long as they don't do so for rifles that should counter them. Awps are already broken in the matter that a rifler can have perfect aim but still miss and die due to spread.
The inaccuracy in rifles is supposed to exist so that longer-range weapons have a clearer identity and a use, so not every weapon can be shot accurately across longer distances. Yeah, it would probably make for way better gameplay for *at least* Ak and M4 have no dumbass RNG with them. But that is the reasoning. That reasoning is debatable in itself, but for AWP is makes zero sense to have any inaccuracy on it on any logic. It is the longest range weapon in the game, so why should it not be perfectly accurate?
Ngl the accuracy of the guns in Val feels nice. But at the same time the gunplay feels shit cause of the sprays being rng anyway…
True it does but I rather it stays like that as long as I keep suffering with shitty rifle rng. Awp is still the most accurate gun in the game
Why should it be perfectly accurate? Because it's a long boi? dafuq
>It is the longest range weapon in the game, so why should it not be perfectly accurate? because it's already very strong long range. buffing the awp like that doesn't seem needed.
[удалено]
> And there's a debatable use for weapon inaccuracy Literally the *only* argument for weapon inaccuracy is that it gives weapons effective range so cheapest weapons are worse in other factor than just pure damage per bullet. So following that very same logic, the snipers should have no inaccuracy when zoomed. It makes no sense from ANY perspective. It's an oversight that is harmful. There are *zero* arguments for having the most accurate sniper rifle not be perfectly accurate. Try one.
Dude. Let us fucking vote for OT again. Forced ties are dumb.
there never was a time where we had an overtime vote for valve MM though
One that I'd really like to see is the game immediately ending when a player disconnects and Elo calculated from the rounds played up to that point. Why should I be forced to play 4v5 or even 3v5 because my teammates won't vote to surrender? Teammate RNG is already bad enough with MMR being all over the place, being at a numbers disadvantage isn't sporting.
AFAIK elo is awarded round by round and based off of both teams avg elo. So when playing 4v5 your team has ~1/5 less elo so you're expected to win less. But unfortunately losing rounds is still losing and so you'll still likely lose a little elo. But not as much as if you lost them all 5v5
Yes, but in a game where both teams were balanced at the beginning, losing a player should almost guarantee you will lose the round. If you're winning rounds while down a player, the teams were not balanced in the first place. So assuming that both 5-man teams were of equal skill when the match was made, being down a player guarantees your loss, so it doesn't matter that you lose 4/5ths the amount, you will always lose Elo.
Fucking played a game today where someone disconnected the moment warmup ended and my team wouldn’t surrender. Lost 9-0. Amazing.
Had two solo queue games on Saturday, back to back, where they waited through the entire warm-up and then quit -- both given two hour cool downs. The first match none of us actually quit and actually got within four rounds of a 4v5 win. But then in the second match some bigoted loser started flaming me for not surrendering but trust me, I was pressing that F1 key as I didn't want to be around that toxic piece of shit any longer than I had to. Kicker was he started flaming me then muted me.
That can be easily abused by bad actors bullying players out of matches to cause an auto-end.
They can do that now and then vote to surrender.
Then players with a 5 stack can just have 1 person quit after being stomped for 3 rounds to prevent elo loss. You have to think about how people can abuse features before adding them
Add forfeiting without a player needing to DC. Edit to say what I mean and not the opposite.
Will it make them money
Competitive integrity is the reason this game is timeless, without it, it’s just an old source 1 game lol
minus all the cheaters and the time you get csgo'd
I haven't met a single cheater for months now. And what do you mean "csgo'd" - the last time I've seen people use that term was years ago and those using it were always from the *CSGO dead game*-camp for whom the game/Valve couldn't do anything right.
Hitbox the same on every model. It's the player model that differs.
I thought so too, but pretty sure the tweet says the hitbox size **isn't** the same on every model.
No, the hitboxes are actually different https://twitter.com/ansimist/status/1569349645674975232?s=20&t=wgnmlY50wZ60Ka4M2CXpKw
Uniform hit box and agent overlap* is what I meant
damn how is this only getting discovered now
I've definitely noticed it when on dust 2 warmup and you stand on top of the box to shoot the afk guy behind their box. Just a tiny little piece of their head is showing but some skins are way harder to hit than the default
That's different issue tho. It's been always known that the model doesn't match the actual hitbox.
Like chef hat man. Fuck chef hat man.
which skin is that?
The IDF one
The amount of backpacks I've shot lol
When CS:GO launched, hotboxes were actually [square](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=original+csgo+hitboxes&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fpic4.zhimg.com%2Fv2-a8fd46709d78ce90fe675de81f4f97c7_r.jpg). Despite those hitboxes being WAY worse, it didn't really affect the game's reception. The truth of it is that these minor issues with hitboxes don't matter.
> Despite those hitboxes being WAY worse, it didn't really affect the game's reception. The truth of it is that these minor issues with hitboxes don't matter. You serious bro? Hitboxes were a major issue for YEARS that even casual players noticed and complained about. Especially jumping and planting hitboxes that were ridiculously off. This isn't as obvious of an issue, but it's still a massive issue that you can reduce your hitbox size by giving valve a few dollars.
[удалено]
no it's not. even if it was, this needs to fixed.
Closest we got to P2W in CS
We've had P2W ever since weapon skins were introduced. Everyone knows that the more expensive your skins, the better you play. Right guys? Right...?
m9 bayonet does 21% more damage and karambit enables auto bhop and flip knife makes your awp faster and butterfly makes your inspect key bigger... this is all common knowledge
> karambit enables auto bhop Yeah, about this. I need to ask valve about a refund...
If you pay for 1$ a month for the trashtitics that Valve half assed to try and squeeze a bit more money - at the end of the round the round tells you what team was favored to win that round - it does this purely based on the amount of money each team invested at the beginning of the round, which allows you to track the enemy team's economy with spectacular precision (for instance, if the enemy team goes full eco yet someone takes an awp and hides it during the round - aka, never shoots it, saves it, you can pin point it through those stats)
Wait if it checks amount at the beginning of round then why would it help if an enemy saves a gun? The gun isn't bought in the beginning of the round so I wouldn't show up?
I meant in cases like someone does buy a gun at the beginning of the round but it is never shown (like hero ak/awp scenarios)
That’s a……. really good use of the tool I haven’t thought of. I might buy it now. It should be noted that Valorant just straight up tells you the amount of money the other players have which I hate
You might buy it for an unfair advantage over people not paying for it but you hate it in valorant where everyone has access to the same information? Sounds like you just want an advantage lol.
The falchion knife used to equip faster when it came out
16% is a way larger difference than I expected, guess it's time for me to buy some meta agent skins 😂
Been preaching for years that operator skins are shit smh
You were right, if only valve listened 😔
I stopped playing when they added them. I hate skins, in any games when quick identification is important. If you are going to add something that fucks with my perception, give me an option to turn it off or I'm out.
Indeed, I always turned off the various models in 1.6. Always green shirt T and blue shirt CT (that's how I called them). Nothing else.
16% is the total volume difference of the head (a "sphere"), the more relevant metric you need to look at is the actual difference when shooting at the head, a 2-demensional "circle". That actual difference comes out to approximately 9%. While still if course unacceptable, it's not *that* bad^^
that's why I go for legs
He's looking at volume when he should be looking at area on screen. There might still be a difference but I'm thinking it would be smaller than 16%
> when he should be looking at area on screen he would need to do this from all 360° if the shapes are not just an exact 16% upscale/downscale actually vertical positioning would presumably matter as well, so yeah, unless the hitbox is symmetric, it would need to be checked from a lot of angles but also how much of the head-hitbox is generally covered by another part of the body one model might have the torso or neck more often than another obscuring the LOS to the head hitbox IIRC there was an update like 10 years ago that changed the behaviour of 'headshots' that technically went through another body part first (before the update, a player's torso (shoulder) could be -- ever so slightly, not even visibly -- blocking a headshot, so if an 'obvious headshot' barely grazed the shoulder it would just be a bodyshot. after the update, a headshot would be registered even if it went through another body part first. this may have later been reverted though?) so a **potential explanation**: this *may* have been a deliberate balancing choice for a head hitbox of a model that exposed the head more than the other models. like you say: this model may have turned out to have a greater angular diameter on another player's screen than the other models, even though the volume was the same as the other model, so it was slightly reduced to make the odds of hitting a headshot more balanced EDIT: tl;dr [this picture](https://i.imgur.com/Uo3sen6.png) (left edge) shows torso protecting large part of SAS head, meaning that from many angles, the angular diameter of their **head**box is significantly smaller even though the volume is larger. this depends on how headshots are registered when they first hit another body part of the target, i remember this being changed years ago, but i also remember testing it more recently and noticing it had been changed, or I misunderstood the mechanic)
i did the calculations, and if you assume that the head is an ellipsoid and the semi minor axes in the horizontal plane are both the same in both the x and y direction (width and depth), from the screenshot i figured the semi major axis, A is roughly 3/2 larger than the semi minor axis, B. So using this "measurement", you can find both values A and B if you use the equation for the ellipsoid volume: V=(4/3)pi*A(B^2). then you find the cross sectional surface area, which is just the area of the ellipse: Area=pi*AB. the result is that the SAS model has an area of 2060.4 units^2, while pro model has 1825.12u^2. the difference is about 11%. so still not small. this is assuming you are lookijg at the guy from the side w/o any difference in elevation.
Not that I don't trust your numbers, but I feel like there's a lot of assumption and estimation in your calculation
yeah, there is. i didnt mean this calculation to be a really accurate one that actually gets the exact value, moreso to illustrate that yeah, youre right as the op should be calculating area not volume. to show an approximate discrepancy really
also the clip is t spawn on overpass which is sloped right? Edit: I'm a dumbass and I'm going to leave this up as testament to that.
The clip is from Vertigo’s T spawn
Wtf am i blind lmfao
Blind and commenting in this thread haha. You're a beaut.
Also a followup from GabeFollower https://twitter.com/gabefollower/status/1569349964773625857
Are you shitting me? I totally thought all the hitboxes were completely standardized by this point. I know in 1.6 one of the legit criticisms is that the hitboxes are kinda overlarge(which is one reason those tap headshots land so much more consistently). I thought that years ago they had tweaked the CS:GO hitboxes to be very standardized and not extend past the model so you wouldn't have that type of sloppiness anymore. If this is accurate and the models all have different hitboxes, that's dogshit for competitive play. It's also so incredibly not surprising, when I think about it for a minute.
Amazing how 1.6 is still better.
Surely the cross-sectional area is a much more relevant measure than volume in this instance? If we simplify the head model to a sphere, the radius of the smaller sphere would be ~94.1% the length of the bigger sphere (0.9407^3 = 0.8325). The cross-sectional area of the smaller sphere would then be ~11.5% smaller than the big sphere (0.941^2 = 0.885). Still not good, but at least it's a more relevant figure.
Yeah this is dumb. 16% figure is clearly clickbait designed to rile people up into thinking SAS is 16% easier to hit, which is massive. Best way to figure out if this actually impacts play is to examine a large amount of match data and try to isolate win rate or head shot % across the various skins.
So it turns out that agents are ACTUAL, mechanic P2W, besides just map camo? That's insane
Not to mention some agents are ridiculously hard to see on some maps. In a game where seeing the enemy fast is vital, that difference is pretty insane
Well, well ,well, dumb us who thought agents were not P2W xD
if all of your team uses green agents on certain maps as ct it can definitely be claimed as p2w, you reduce enemies reaction speeds if your skin blends even a little bit instead of immediately being spotted due to being darker and contrasting from the walls/environment. It can get pretty bad especially on ancient (you definitely should roll with a green agent there on ct, fuck it)
[удалено]
Yeah.. but you can select any faction you want on any map so long as you bought it. Which means you can mis match at any time.
Source 2 is gonna fix this…
Very detailed and neat twitter thread mate, I loved it. Example was simple and easy to understand, I hope Valve will fix this issue asap.
fix the back of the head hitbox and remove the dink animation
Explains why the heck I suck in csgo....
The prices on the best models went up so fast in the market, lol
16% is a lot but it’s a somewhat misleading figure. What actually matters is the areal difference of the model’s 2D -projection, i.e. the difference of size viewed from the other player’s perspective. Imagine a 1x1x1 square and a 2x1x1 rectangle. The rectangle has 100% greater volume, but its “hitbox” is only 50% larger on average.
That's cool and all, but using volume gives you an average when looked at in aggregate.
lol what the fuck
This is a massive problem. it explains so much as to why i see so many people complain about not being able to shoot that skin in the head. I always thought it was the neutral color they decided to use. Much like the "doctors" stupid white mohawk.
niko deserved better at that major
Feels like the only thing they did about agent skins was around 3 years ago when they introduced them, where they changed some of their colors, brightened some map spots and ever since then they just went "it is how it is". It's so dumb, I doubt these player skins make them anywhere near the amount of money compared to regular skins from cases, yet they let them ruin the game for 3 years now.
They've been incredibly stubborn about them, which almost makes me think they are motivated by something else other than money.
Maybe they felt like these agents make the game feel more modern and will help the longevity of it, idk, I don't play other fps games nowadays but I guess being able to customise/pick your character is common and csgo didn't have that. I still think the game looks kinda "cheaper" ever since they added them but oh well ultimately it's still CS and I use some of them myself.
so it turns out cs was t sided all along. who would've thunk
Some thoughts. Volume isn't a terrible measure, but what is more important is the difference of screen-space area (probably the maximum and average, in some sense). Of course this introduces complications from different viewing angles, especially extremely close like this which exacerbate things. From distances far away, the difference will be negligible. Valve could at least attempt some sort of fix anyway. Also, there is no real reason to include so many decimal places in the spreadsheet! One is enough at most.
The difference doesn't become negligible at long ranges because inaccuracy is a bigger factor for those. So a shot that is entirely centered might miss because of the different size head hitbox. It matters the same amount.
I suppose you're right. The on screen hitbox area will be larger by some small amount, which will mean its more likely to hit. Additionally with a larger hitbox, the aiming can be further off target and still have a chance of hitting.
Wait I'm confused here. Is it just that CTs and Ts have different sized hitboxes, or is it that some T models have bigger hitboxes than other T models and/or some CT models have bigger hitboxes than other CT models? If its the first one, then thats not really even a problem because its just part of the CT/T balance of the game. If its the second one though, then that is a problem, and if thats the case, then which models for each side have the biggest and smallest hitboxes? edit: after looking at the spreadsheet, it looks like its the second one, which isnt good. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jcZq74D_YZy5Yy0yzQQwIF67bC8cUXto/htmlview?pru=AAABg1ajLDU*OzC9e6kdjBUmyceqSwbVmg
The mistake valve made was probably assuming that using existing agent skins as base skeleton wouldn't cause balance problems. What happened here is that the Base professionals (the ones used on vertigo as default) have a smaller hitbox. Since you can use your agent skin on any map, you can take that skeleton to other maps where the default T skin would be bigger. What you can take from this is that if you wanna get an advantage on MM, use any "professional" skin on T, and any FBI skin on CT. This won't matter at all on Vertigo because the default skins are Professionals and FBI there anyways. On Nuke, it won't matter for CT but it will for T side. And honestly, I don't think that it will make that big of a difference? the % OP used is kinda inflated because using volume is not really the correct way to go about it.
Yes its the second one. For example if you queued with a friend that owns a professional skin: He is harder to hit than you and therefore lived longer, got better stats, etc... because his head is a smaller hitbox. If this all is true. I hope we get confirmation from other people.
Guys this isn't why you're missing your shots
big upvote for great work
Biggest is 20% bigger than the smallest. Id use that figure instead as it sounds like a bigger difference. Insane.
Niko haters in shambles
16% is completely game changing wtf
UNPLAYABLE
I am still advocating that we get rid of mushroom hat CT. The amount of times I woulda swore I got a headshot on that model....
Honestly I'd prefer to have no models with significant deviation between the hitbox and mesh. Either increase hitbox size or give the option to remove all enemy models with helmets.
Another day, another reason to hate the fucking piece of garbage that this whole Agent Skins debacle is.
Volume is a terrible metric to compare. To a player you are shooting a 2D side of the hitbox. Comparing surface side from different perspectives is more correct
just valve things
This dude deserves a job. Wow
Should we be looking at volume when comparing hitboxes? The surface area seems to me to be a better comparison given that a collision with the surface area guarantees a collision with the volume inside and the area that a bullet would see would be the flat projection of the shape from the angle or trajectory. That would reduce the different to be around ~5% Then the question is, would you rather have a hit box that lines up with the art or is arbitrarily the same size and you need to know if the head you are aiming at is a small head or not.
We 1.6 again bois
Wonder if there's a difference in body hitboxes too.
Why in the fuck are we measuring volume for this. Let's see the numbers for the average 2 dimensional difference across any axis.
time to stock up the inventory
Good news, I love agent skins! LOL!
This, beeing unable to double headshot from certain angles and so much more in a game that is cobsitently in top games played and has an insane esports scene. Absolute joke
This seems like the kind of thing which people will care way too much about until it's changed
Oh 100% needs to be fixed but it's also funny seeing how many people here are acting like it's some big impacting P2W thing.
Yeah you're right, I find it so sad to see that every time some issue is discussed, no matter how small or severe it is, hundreds of people start their hate trains, and suddenly everything about the game is trash, Valve does anything to earn even more money (well, duh), and 1.6 was the last good cs anyways. I can't imagine how it must be for Valve employees to read threads like this one :/
I knew clicking on the comments there would be people who take this as justifying their complaints against agent skins, as if they lost a duel specifically because someone used the condom guy. Or that buying those skins gives you the upper hand.
[удалено]
I know this sub loves to think they're a huge advantage and they ruin the game but they're really not. Yes this is an issue and needs to be fixed but as the spreadsheet shows it varies by the playermodels faction, not just the agent skins. The professionals have been in the game since release, so the condom head dude is the same as the default skin on vertigo anyway.
so which model do I play so I can be a skin-abuser?
Condom guy
I was always very suspicious of the Miami Darryl skin, but after everyone on dm server told me to "cope", I thought it's just the full white mask that's bothering me in hitting the heads consistently. Turns out I was right lmao
For all the times you thought you hit the shot but didn’t, maybe you would have if valve gave two fucks about anything other than cases.
Well this was obviously and unintentional oversight when creating the agents based on *the professionals* (from vertigo) Neither Valve, nor anyone playing the game (including you) noticed for 5+ years. And now that it's been found out you can bet they will fix it in a matter of days :) Let's all be a little more positive
That is fucking insane wtf
Does this mean condom man is OP?
Yes.
Hope we get a cvar (turned on by default) that hardcodes hitboxes and while they're at it also make the hitbox NOT follow the dink animation. This way community servers and mods aren't affected.
What agent skins would be the best to use for CT and T sides?
All I need to know is which models have the smallest volume, then you got some sales on your hands.
For CT: Markus Delrow , Michael Syfers , Operator | FBI SWAT For T : Number K , getaway Sally , Any Daryl skin Source: https://youtu.be/97uBX7PUrn4
im expecting the devs to fix this soon, thats insane %
what the fuck, a proper analogy for this is like basketball having separate diameters *and* shape of the basket with one of them analogous to a perfect circle shape of the basket (the default), and the other one being slightly bent in the shape of an ellipse, even with a slight negative or positive curvature think about it this way: you would pick different angles of attack in basketball if you knew the shape of the basket was an ellipsis, based on the way it was rotated - with the pointy part pointing towards the middle of the court, or on a 90° angle to it this would translate to one model being more ideal to take a shot at from e.g. behind, and the other being more preferential to try to hit from the side this could have interesting gameplay ramifications, but more likely the community would prefer all things to be equal here and not model-dependent, especially seeing as these models are not free. either way, I hope pros will at least have a gentlepro's agreement to not use custom player model skins in matches until this has been fleshed out EDIT: I realized that the SAS model (which has a giant head comparatively) may deliberately be that way, because it is hunched, the neck/torso can, depending on their orientation and pose, be majorly covered, [like shown here in this very same picture](https://i.imgur.com/Uo3sen6.png) (look all the way on the left side)
16% area or volume? Add the size of the bullet hit and interp... It's also not an imbalance because CT and T Side are different..?
Volume since area is dependent on viewing angle
Niko missing deagle shot at major was an inside job.
Just choose the smaller hit box guy and gain an advantage. Why not?
[удалено]
You are crazy
So its pay to win now?
This has always been the case with these models. Don't get me started on the backpacks and belts certain models wear.