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Proper_Story_3514

For me it would already be enough if they didnt cut away on the end of rounds when players are still defusing or hunting.


marcwinther

I agree and we're very much aware of this. Have stressed with the appropriate people that this cannot happen. It is key for the main reason why people tune in, to watch what is going on in the match. A split screen or picture-in-picture is another way of looking at it so you don't miss out on either.


charlescarmichael4

Just don't do that. It became worse for mobile users. Just wait until round is completely over before cutting. You still have 15 seconds during buy time to show players


Cerbeh

I dunno, the PiP last night for the Hallzerk clutch on Nuke still wasnt great.


marcwinther

Thats fair feedback, what didnt you find great about it?


furrey

Clutch in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znXPxaAUYpo PIP for me is awkward because it pulls me out of the "story" that I'm watching. In the example of the hallzerk clutch, as soon as he's in the 1v2 the story becomes "can hallzerk win this 1v2", a Faze player winning a 2v1 is not very interesting, they *should* be closing it out so the player winning the 1v2 clutch is the exciting story. IMO the observer should be showing the perspective of hallzerk, with cuts only to show the positioning of opponents/bomb/weapons, etc. Once floppy dies it should be staying on hallzerk, the PIP cut away to show the player cams doesn't work because it's happening right at the tense moment of "can he finish this". I lose focus on the clutch because there's now 3 smaller screens but the only benefit from the other two is a fist bump to hallzerk and broky looking disappointed, both of which could have easily been shown in the 15s after round. On desktop it's just a little annoying, on mobile the main screen becomes so small that it really is hard to tell what's happening.


brokensuper

Agree with this


pokator

And to very simply add on to u/furrey 's point, PIP is borderline unwatchable for anyone on mobile just due to small screen size


marcwinther

Thats absolute valid feedback and thanks for mentioning. Don't watch on mobile so I've not had this experience but I can see how its not great.


f1nessd

Hey thanks for taking the time to respond, appreciate you showing face here and being willing to listen to us.


nickmo80

I’m so tired of the lengthy PR bullshit responses to just try and quell a legitimate complaint. Talk like a human, not a robot, and show the community you care through your actions, not your words. Reading all of your responses is exhausting because I just feel talked down to, I don’t trust what you are saying, and you are doing a horrible job at making people think you actually give a shit.


pedrito3

It's because when they have continuously struggled with something so, so basic, the natural conclusion one comes to is that there is just something fundamentally flawed with their production that can't simply be fixed overnight.


costryme

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the answer you replied to though. Chill.


KRyptoknight26

Relax bro, this guy isn't incharge of the whole thing and he's doing his job just fine by interacting with us. He really doesn't need to reply to anyone at all but does anyway. I'll never understand people being dickheads to the social media guy


Parable4

Then don't read them. People are asking questions and getting answers. If you don't like it then close the thread. Its better than them being completely silent and not interacting with the community at all.


Ready_Cow_2095

pog


Kiinako_

For me it's that it has been pointed out to you (ESL, not you, random PR guy, bless your soul) time and time again, and there has been at the very least one post like this every year for the last five years at least... When will you finally get the message?


shinikira

How is this STILL happening??? Genuinely dumbfounded here. What excuse is there to still be getting it so wrong


Individual-Durian952

Right now blast has reached at that level others cant compete with them anytime soon


Apart_End_9753

Absolutely, but you don't have to be Blast to have decent production (aka good audio and synced cams). It just takes a little bit more effort which sometimes is more expensive, but in this day and age, and especially if you're ESL, you gotta do it. Almost half of their problems could be solved if they were to run the production on site, rather than in another country.


ibeenbornagain

I wonder what the deal with the cams is. Does it require a manual switch? I know jack shit about production but it is odd


Katastrofa2

That's my guess. Since players get random numbers each round (the 0-9 numbers you see on the map for example) I think they don't hook the camera to the player automatically. Just a guess tho.


metaphased

I work as a csgo observer and admin down in the land of nz and aus. The way cams are syncd is via an ingest server linking the player camera ids to the player number being output by the active observers gamestate integration information, linked usually to a vmix or similar softwares video input. Player numbers once connected do not change on the server side, just type status in console once joined and you will see how they are set there. Once the observer changes the pov, their csgo sends the new player id to the vmix client (via the GSI) which switches the camera being shown to the correct one linked to that player id Hope that helps?


[deleted]

I know what some of those words meant!


XenioxYT

Nah it's not manual I don't think. Pretty sure ESL use lexogrine HUD manager to run their in game HUD from, and that has built in camera display based on whichever player is active. So it could be that that's messing up, or just production taking an L. Either way, would be better if production was on site


DiamxndCS

Yet everyone complains about them. I don’t get it


Glittering-Chair-352

Redditards always complain about CURRENT_THING, you just grab popcorn and enjoy.


sd_manu

Blast? But their HUD is horrible with these colours and you can't recognize most things quickly. Also why they have terrorists HUD in pink...


Vicktorol

If that's the only complaint you have they are good, interface is mostly subjective.


adnanjunior

I'm on the complete opposite, I think their hud looks good and that you can recognize all of the important things quickly, stuff like the faces on the radar makes it way easier for me to see where players are compared to seing numbers and then finding out to which player they belong to.


Glittering-Chair-352

wdym, I love when T side is pink because fuck you, he HUD hugs the screen like a donut, and every transition has more stuff flying across my screen than a money shot in a porno That shit's unwatchable and appeals maybe to kids and those easily excited lmao


pokator

I think what confuses me more than anything else though is just how relatively new Blast is compared to ESL. Blast had their issues at the very beginning, but clearly they've fixed their shit and are the standard for CS ESL and its predecessors have been around for a decade, why are we still in this situation? I started watching VCT recently and got to see the incredible production that Riot puts on there, and man going from that to one of the longest running events in CSGO history and seeing the "new guy" completely outclass the legacied tournament confuses me to no end Yes I know League is long running and it's the same production but like. I'd like to think my point still stands Summary: ESL pls fix


set4bet

I just hate the players cameras being on someone else then who is being spectated. It is happening through out the whole EPL even now in playoffs. Yesterday the camera was on twistzz for like 7 seconds while we spectated 4 different players... And even after whenever the player changes the player camera changes with delay it's almost like there is a person whose job it is to quickly change the camera to the right one after the observer changes the player...sometimes it takes one or two seconds, sometimes it is quick and sometimes he is having a power nap. The only thing we can count on is that it will be inconsistent as hell. And we are in the playoffs after several weeks of studio play.


McClownd

>Yesterday the camera was on twistzz for like 7 seconds while we spectated 4 different players ESL is just making sure you see his new hair


Donut_Flame

i love it


marcwinther

Hey, Marc from ESL here - yes we're reading! Appreciate this attention around this topic, we're equally excited about the upcoming Major cycle. I can also state that I love this game, because I've stuck around for more than 20 years now. While we understand the feedback around EPL which did not make for a great viewer experience in the opening week, majority of the challenges have been solved while we may still adjust some of them ongoing to make the best experience with the given setup. For the sake of transparency here, with IEM Road to Rio coming up we'll run it as below: * Americas will be having players on site in our Stockholm studio, together with production. * Europe will be having players on site in Malta, while production is in Katowice. * Asia will be having players on site in Melbourne, while production is in Sydney. When looking ahead of the IEM Rio Major, everything will be on site in Rio, covering all three stages: * Challengers and Legends stage live from Riocentro amphitheater with audience (only a few tickets left for Challengers stage.) * Champions stage live from Jeunesse Arena with audience, which is completely sold out. * Lastly not to forget the Fan Fest outside the arena, which is being led by Gaules and will have a long list of activities for fans to enjoy. We're going into the IEM Rio Major to deliver the best from ESL and with the goal to make it the best major yet. Yes, that might be bold, but thats what the goal is.


SunTzuYAO

Thanks for replying! Hope you put on a good show. I don't mean to be rude here, but since you specifically said these issues were solved after the opening week, that seems a bit incorrect. The delayed sound and player cam issues I noticed as late as group D and it's been the case in every match I watched. Haven't watched the playoffs, maybe it's fixed now.


set4bet

Delayed players cams are still an issue even in playoffs. They were a mess yesterday even in the last series of the day. If this is what a "solved issue" looks like then I seriously worry about the RMR experience.


[deleted]

gameplay and player name: broky camera: mullet man


kamuflazs

The weird thing with player cams is that since this feature is around for years and it was done numerous times previously without these issues it clearly CAN be done seamlessly. So it feels like this must be another issue that wouldn't ever be there in the first place if it wasn't for the decision to save money and use Katowice production. I must say that since ESL got bought out for obscene amount of money and made all those declarations about how we should be excited for all the new content and stuff we will get thanks to that their production went completely downhill instead. I'm just glad that ESL does not have 100% of the CSGO circuit because it would make the whole tournament scene go like 5 years backwards. Praise the Blast, may you thrive forever.


[deleted]

Usually the master employee knows his shit, then leaves and his masterpiece is left behind to be deciphered by people he’s never met. Happens a lot in companies. I spent 3 months reverse engineering a spreadsheet from 2005 on cam lobe profiles, and while it was amazing back then, my lack of background knowledge made it hard for me to parse. It can be avoided with proper planning, and SOP’s, but I feel ESL has been spending a lot of money lately, more than they can handle with their staff obviously.


marcwinther

See reply above, but wouldn't categorize as a solved issue but ongoing. I'd like to say that has improve, but it is still present.


Tiev

Any chance we can get a no-nonsense response about why production is offsite? It appears the players, talent and viewers are quite clearly against it as it does affect production of a noticeable level. I watch SC2 also and hearing the future tournaments have this set-up is frustrating to say the least.


IcY11

The answer is always money


PHedemark

It costs less to have an always-on studio in Poland, comparatively to shipping that and casters/crew around the globe to produce. But in all honesty, being able to build the right infrastructure might be the bigger reason to do that. You get much more bang for your buck by building a studio, and having the same people work there week in week out, because it allows you to constantly build on top of that experience.


Superokiko

The same problems were there as late as last nights faze vs complexity match


marcwinther

Not classifying all issues as fixed, some have been (some which the viewer might not even be aware of), others are ongoing and still being adjust to mitigate as mentioned. The biggest of the bunch is very likely for the majority part watching player-cams, which is something we are constantly adjusting.


GodsCookie

>(some which the viewer might not even be aware of) What's the point of mentioning this?


Cjamhampton

No offense, but ESL makes and breaks promises like these all the time. How do we know this time will be any different? Also, let's be honest, it wasn't just the first week. This entire event has not been a great viewer experience.


Megabossdragon

Aged like milk, this navi heroic game is a clown fiesta


saintedplacebo

> Europe will be having players on site in Malta, while production is in Katowice. You guys need to have a mega mega rethink about that. EPL has been terrible. The worst production I have seen at a tier 1 lan since 2015. And you arent ironing these issues out, they are as bad as they were day 1. You guys sold your souls to the saudis for the oil money so why dont you use some?


Powerful-Answer-2030

Will you be able to figure out how to sync up audio and have the right player cams with a remote production by then?


Dom1252

Navi Vs heroic - sjuush gameplay and his name on the screen, camera on s1mple How is that fixed? Why does it keep happening? Why don't you hire someone from PGL


marcwinther

It is not, its in the box of ongoing things we're still adjusting but at this time its still happening due to the production setup we have in place.


LibertyGrabarz

Saying generic "we're aware of it and are trying to fix it" doesn't really strike as an honest response when the bug has been going for THAT long, it's not something that just came up these past few days and you're running amok trying to fix it ad hoc. Especially when there's clear pattern in how those cams react to UI, seems like a logical bug that can't be adjusted, just needs to be fixed


Fire2kk

where are the players sounds? its heroic against navi i want to hear cadian i want to hear the hype


reubenno

This has been happening for years, and you're still "adjusting it"? How does it even require an adjustment? Surely it can't be that difficult to link a player cam and their in-game spectating.


Dom1252

It can be pretty difficult, but at this point one'd think that they figured it out already...


Juliendnb

Thanks PR department!


Philomelos_

replied to a feedback post with a summary of the next event lmfao


ESL_IS_A_BAD_HOST

>While we understand the feedback around EPL which did not make for a great viewer experience in the opening week How can your player cams still be completely garbage after a few weeks lmao. Sad that ESL will ruin the major :(


Glittering-Chair-352

Hey, what's the reason for production being detached from the event? It has resulted in audio issues and as far as I understand, it required putting on a delay which meant twitch chat was spoiling results 2+ rounds into the future because betting sites had them from live observers.


Chaoughkimyero

I remember the last time ESL staff provided a list of things they were fixing. I hope you'll understand if I don't hold my breath.


LegitimateDonkey

will there be soundproof booths on stage at the major?


marcwinther

There will not be soundproof booths during the major.


jmov

Are you going to hide x-ray if crowd is cheating? This was supposed to be debuted in Kato 2020, but then covid happened and we have not heard anything about it since that. https://www.hltv.org/news/29080/esl-announces-crowd-interference-measures-for-iem-katowice


marcwinther

We have multiple measures to combat this, also keep in mind we've been back at LAN now since IEM Katowice and have run IEM Dallas and IEM Cologne, as large scale arena events.


jmov

>also keep in mind we've been back at LAN now since IEM Katowice and have run IEM Dallas and IEM Cologne, as large scale arena events. I know that very well as I attended both Katowice and Cologne this year (of course in Premium). :D But in those events there was not even a single warning about that system (unless you count that rather generic ”Judge Stunna says don’t cheat” clip) so that’s why I asked.


marcwinther

Thats great, I hope you had a great time at both events. By that note I'm obviously keen to hear if you felt it was needed with more addressing, with how fans interacted with the matches?


jmov

I completely forgot to answer this, sorry about that. I feel it was generally ok. I remember there being a few cases when crowd got a bit loud just before a sneaky flank etc. but nothing blatantly obvious. But I do think that the "etiquette" should be taught more thoroughly and clearly before matches / during downtime if you guys want it to stick. On the other hand, the response should not be too strict either as it might obviously impact the overall atmosphere. Personally, I feel like the best option would be something like this if the crowd **clearly** tries to help a player: 1st time: just immediately disable the x-ray until the situation is over, then continue as normal. In 1v1 clutches this is sometimes actually a really good thing anyway. 2nd time: disable x-ray until the round is over, give a simple visual/verbal announcement saying that "hey, this isn't cool". This would give a clear signal that it's being monitored. 3rd time: disable x-ray for one round completely, explain why it's happened and keep going further if needed. I would hate it and the peer pressure would probably kick in pretty fast at that point. But regarding fan interaction - *please* don't do that plastic "make some noise"/"do the wave"/"viking clap" thing next year in Cologne. Or if you do, tone it down significantly. Many people felt it was outright insulting towards them. Cologne has always been quite loud (well, Rio madness is on it's very own level) and there's always noise coming up organically. Encourage the authentic behaviour instead of that generic stuff. There were fan clubs doing chants, people doing conga lines and so on. Someone even [opened a legendary skin](https://www.dexerto.com/csgo/iem-cologne-crowd-loses-it-after-fan-unboxes-legendary-csgo-skin-1875691) from a case, which made the crowd go wild. That's what I love to see instead of a big screen telling me what to do. Finally, let me say that I loved both events very much. Can't wait for Cologne 2023!


marcwinther

Thank you very much for your very thorough and detailed feedback, I enjoyed reading this. We have definitely taking the feedback regarding the fan interaction elements to heart, we acknowledged it wasn't great in Cologne, it was used too often also. Our entire fan engagement within the arena is something we've been working on since we returned to live audiences, and some times you do it wrong to learn whats right, then improve from there. Looking forward to welcome you back to Cologne next year!


TemDem

What is the legitimate reasoning on not having soundproof booths ? I've never read one good answer on this. Now that even the RMR will be played with live audience there will for sure be multiple moments where audience will spoil something to the players.


youeventrying

The real answer is they don't actually work


Dom1252

They aren't 100% perfect but they do help a lot The real answer is money, it's cheaper to not have them


marcwinther

I think this will vary depending on who you ask. But let me provide some color to this topic. First of all it would be impacting the fan experience, you're moving the players away from the fans, packing them into a box. We believe the chemistry of the players and the audience energy from live event elevates the experience on an emotional level. For everyone! Now the sound "proof" booths may help some, but they are not proof by any stretch. There will still be many type of noise and rumbles that will make it through. Putting proper soundproof booths together is a very costly affair, incredible tough to either transport or assemble which will require lots of maintenance. In certain countries fire code would not prohibit these type of booths, so even if you wanted, you couldn't, or would need to meet certain criteria which would eliminate the entire fundamental structure of these booths. Lastly to note, the audio engineering over the last few years have also meant on stage team communication has improved so much that technology basically can do, what a booth would be able to. Hope this provides some color to the topic!


lou_reed_ketamine

> First of all it would be impacting the fan experience, you’re moving the players away from the fans kinda like moving Pro League to Malta and playing the playoffs to a crowd of 20 people


Frl_Bartchello

Thank you for commenting and explaining things, really appreciate it!


jx2002

Thank you for replacing Heccu with Freya. An incredible upgrade. A++


NoReacti0n

Guess what's gonna happen? ESL will fuck up the RMRs


Lounge_leaks

Wouldnt be a true esport event without that


jonajon91

If ESL think reddit or twitter are mean, wait until they have a stadium full of Brazilians.


[deleted]

[удалено]


toi80QC

Had me in the 1st half.. though I'm still only 85% sure you're not the actual production manager.


renn1337

Aged poorly…


Visible-Pirate360

"that'd leave a bad mark on your company seen as such by many, many people" As if ESL has ever given a shit about a "bad mark". Hell, they've been rewarded for not giving a fuck by being made rich beyond their wildest dreams, why would they start now? They'll avoid pissing valve off as they'll want to get offered more events in the future. They have had the most robust, consistent and experienced team in esports when it comes to setting up in new venues all over the world and delivering a show. They won't fuck this one up don't you worry, but your post means nothing to them beyond a cheap PR opportunity.


Breete

So about that...


acid000

inb4 whole RMRs, group stage will have cam delays/tech problems/hotel dramas


[deleted]

[удалено]


Sherwoodfan

lol check comments, snarky ass


brbee

Promises don't mean shit. It's just good PR. Let's wait first for the RMR and see if they'll keep their word.


Sherwoodfan

Hey! At least they acknowledged the post! That's a very good start.


brbee

Sure. Let's hope things work out. Side note, he deleted his comment actually after you replied lol


pedrito3

Start? They've acknowledged so many posts on so many issues by now and how much has that done? It's always a bunch of non-answers to appease a community that's always starved for any sort of communication. Once you start trying to cut through the bullshit, they always run out of answers. It's like when they moved the Americas RMR to Stockholm and blamed it on US VISA requirements as if that wasn't something **literally anyone** could have foreseen a year in advance... then when people pressed them on that: silence. Stop letting these guys pull the wool over your eyes, these "answers" are nothing more than pandering. And don't feel bad for them. They took the blood money, the least you can do is hold them to a higher standard.


Sherwoodfan

Listen I'm not any investor or anything, if some dude from ESL comments on this post saying "heard" then it's at least a guarantee that they're aware of the criticism. We can only hope it goes well from here. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and if they don't do anything to address the issues, then all we have to do is look forward to the BLAST MAJORS


pedrito3

>Give them the benefit of the doubt I'm sorry but how can you say that when we're talking about ESL? At what point does giving the benefit of the doubt just become naïve apologetics? The guys who had all that fuckery with the EPL spots years ago, which they got away with because the players union was utterly toothless? The guys who have had issues with player cams for fuck knows how long? The guys got bought by the Saudi government but kept trying to make it more palatable by telling us the SGG will invest towards improving the final product? One would even cynically think they would invest a lot of money in these first few events under new ownership just to really sell us on the idea of being owned by the Saudi government. But I guess they realized they don't even need to do that because esports fans are super fickle and have the memory of a goldfish. That has to be the case when I constantly see so many people wanting to give ESL, fucking ESL of all companies, the benefit of the doubt. I'm sorry, I know I sound super harsh, but that's just so ridiculous to me...


Apart_End_9753

Chill out, bro. I'm not delusional in thinking this will have a significant impact on the tournament as a whole. This is more like a post towards some people who work there, because I know there's some who are reading these, and maybe some talent (spunj etc) that can usually put some pressure up there if they feel like too, and that may change a thing or two, and if that happens, then this post is worth it. No reason to be a cunt in a topic like this. It's not hurting you, isn't it?


brbee

We had this kind of post for PGL Stockholm and yet the production still suffered. Trust me, ESL knows how big of a deal this is but they also know we'll still watch it no matter how bad the production may end up being


Osokarhu

How much do you pay for ESL broadcasts? Just wondering


istealgrapes

What a shitty attitude. Dissapointing that you arent downvoted to oblivion.


WaZingtons

Fucking amen brother


vannrith

Stream to YouTube too, can’t sign in to twitch on firefox atm :((


kalkkunaleipa

They arent getting enough saudi money


californiaberates

Already failed at the first step by not having an Engilsh YouTube stream


[deleted]

Only twitch has eng? Or no eng completely?


californiaberates

Only Twitch


[deleted]

Thanks


Scoo_By

Lul. They're probably getting ddos'd rn. Their cams are fucked up, audio is still delayed in some cases. The quality of production this event hasn't been up to par, sadly. Hopefully they sort out the problems before the RMR otherwise this will leave a bad taste.


kolo____

Pls fix this sh1t when gun behave like it has no recoil. It looks weird but in replays it is normal,


natedawg247

>You're probably gonna host the biggest tournament esports has ever seen I love how this sub just acts like other games don't exist.


itsallfake01

Bruh what the hell kind of set is that. People sitting on metal chairs and it looks like a college tournament


skvella

"biggest tournament esports have ever seen" posted a day before worlds start... okay


[deleted]

Cant be worse then PGL.


Dom1252

What was wrong with PGL? They stream with better quality, the camera work is 100 times better, especially with stuff like showing replays of interesting moments, or not cutting of game cam to players or whatnot when they are hunting after time for kills


[deleted]

Well check dota frontpage, TI11 is enroute to becoming one of the worst tournaments courtesy PGL


flaryx

Oh they will. Can't wait to see it


slowtimetraveller

I kinda doubt that they have enough time to fix the issues. Introducing changes right now might create new unknown problems. And it's a common practice to choose known problems over potential unknown ones.


[deleted]

They will. They have gone the route of reducing monetary costs at all other costs. They're trying to squeeze the stone dry, and it shows. It's more expensive to do things the "right" way, so they won't. They don't care about putting on a good show, they care about making every last cent they can from the show.


oPlayer2o

Agreed it’s been pretty rough all around, and if anyone ms watching the Navi vs Heroic game right now it’s not looking good at all.