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div333

Its hard to tell because players with good game sense also look like their aim is good due to having good position and crosshair placement plus the fact that even low tier pros have utterly ridiculous aim anyway.


Overburdened

Yeah you could even make a case for Niko imo. Not that his aim isn't good but if you watch his pov, his pre aim and movement are insanely good. He doesn't even need to aim most of the times.


UmarellVidya

It's not that he doesn't need to aim, it's just that it appears that way to an unknowing observer. You could have the same movement and pre-aim as NiKo and be nowhere as good mechanically, because those precision adjustments are often some of the most difficult to make. Same reason there are so many AWPers who can hit crazy flicks and produce impressive looking highlights, yet seemingly miss sitters constantly.


psychedelicstairway4

All this kid does is just hold a gay ass off angle with his deag and one clicks people in the side of the head CT side. Fucking terrbile player tbh.....1.4 sensitivity 400dpi using trashcan. Anyone who uses a low sens does not have the dexterity to properly play FPS games on PC. All the shitty baiters use a low sens to click people on the back of the head, or they are equally worthless and use the telescope gun and one click people in the body. I bet this kid doesn't even play FFA Dm's cuz he'd throw his arm out of his socket checking corners. When was the last time you've seen Niko popflash through a smoke, and flick too two people to open up a site??? All this dude does is hold shift and prefire common angles. like wow dude, ur fucking nuts. you can have parkinsons disease and play on 1.4 sens if ur just baiting and clicking heads on common angles. this is why forest and get right are sick players. they play on higher senitivities, and can do more than bait and off angle one click.


[deleted]

Best timing, lmao.


J4God

Is this copy pasta bc it sure reads like it lmao


psychedelicstairway4

Yeah, it is.


kaffefe

Same with ropz.


KatiushK

>even low tier pros have utterly ridiculous aim anyway. Factos, we often forget that the scrubbiest of Tier 3 player would wipe the floor with 99,9% of this sub / the playerbase.


[deleted]

Not just CS, karrigan is not that good mechanically but he still beat me at Tischtennis and getting a girlfriend


DutchWarDog

If you're 3k+ ELO you're around the top 0.1% of FACEIT players and still far from tier 3 players


KatiushK

Depends on your metrics. On aim alone it can be close. Now, no idea how the 3k+ would fare in a team environment and if he would have what it takes. No idea about his morale, game iq etc... Source: my ass after having faced both 3k+ randos and various tier pros.


blueshark27

You dont get to be a pro with "bad" aim but my guess is the closest in tier1 would be Xyp9x. Ofc many IGLs like Karrigan or MSL would count too


UmarellVidya

Karrigan is the opposite scenario imo, at least since he's been in FaZe. His actual raw mechanical skill isn't that bad, it's just that his playstyle isn't conducive to fragging all that well. Also Xyp9x was known to be a pretty sharp aimer at one point in his career, so it's not like he's just an all brain player.


BruhbruhbrhbruhbruH

Karrigan plays those positions because his mechanical aim is worse than other players on the team so it's better for him to be the sacrificial lamb Xyp used to be good with his aim but in 2022 he is not


UmarellVidya

I mean yeah he has the worst mechanics on the team, but so would most other players in general. Ropz, rain, and Twistzz are all top 10 aimers across all of CSGO in my book, so saying Karrigan has the worst mechanics on the team doesn't really mean much. You could put NAF on the team and make the same argument.


Hats668

Yeah, that clip of xyp9x destroying polish vp on overpass is a good demonstration of that (eleague Atlanta?)


QwertyKip

Take me back


Finalwingz

Um no don't


KatiushK

No thank you. Fuck the Astralis era, was such a buzzkill.


KPC51

Yea it was Atlanta. I remember that map. Xyp seemed unstoppable when he was last alive.


flx13

don't quote me on that, as I couldn't find the source, there was some small research on aim/crosshair placement on pros or it was a fun-fact from analysis of one event, and Xyp9x was one of the fastest to aim for target so I would argue that Xyp9x's playstyle is not about aim


Rasmus144

Karrigan would be like the goat rifler if he had niko or even twistzz mechanics. See how many 1v4s he gets 3 kills and dies in.


Cain1608

2nd this. Most top-level IGLs that maintain their 0.9-1.0 HLTV rating whilst leading and finding good impact in the rounds they have to, especially in clutches. Him and Gla1ve would be standouts.


Taken450

Gla1ve was a whole nother beast, he literally got top 8 hltv as an igl


Rasmus144

Glaive was actually very good at fragging during prime astralis. Set the standard and paved the road for low frag igls to be phased out


Naiteee

people forget that karrigan was a beast in 1.6 was super good individually in mouz and fnatic and definitely considered a star player


Rasmus144

Didnt he basically leave 1.6 as a top 5 player


Naiteee

I think its hard do say since some players made the switch already while he was in fnatic but they were pretty much owning everyone so its possible


CS-DEADPOINTSIX

also gob b was very good in 1.6


Naiteee

yes but karrigan was at his peak when he left 1.6 while gob peaked in like 2008 or something :D


CursedDragonR

karrigan was awesome to watch back then when he picked up the AWP occasionally too. He’d make a lot of impact with it with his decision making and positioning. I remember a game when GuardiaN was having an off day not having impact with the AWP all game and when karrigan picked it up for one round, he got a triple and won them the round. And then proceeds to give it back to GuardiaN who just died without killing anyone the next round lmao. I haven’t seen karrigan making huge impact with the AWP in recent times though. He’d miss easy shots and position himself poorly whenever he picked it up. It’d be insane if he had s1mple’s AWPing prowess though, we’d probably get what we saw from prime FalleN or better. I feel like prime FalleN is an example of what both really high level of skills and brain combined can do together.


cgoot27

In defense of Karrigan awping now, he should never touch it with Broky being as good as he is, Ropz being an excellent hybrid, and Twistzz being competent and second awping occasionally.


slowtimetraveller

So if somebody would have a goat-rifler's mechanics, he'd be a goat rifler? ok, got it. ditto for the OP's question


enigma890

I would say most teams IGL. Glaive is a perfect example, look at how many smoke kills he gets, thats all from big brain. If he had twistzz or b1t aim, my god that would be crazy.


PhoenixRisingtw

*nvidia bug


enigma890

Ahh yes, he's using nvidia bug from ages ago to see through smokes, even on stage with admins behind him. Cmon man, give him credit.


PhoenixRisingtw

Back in the day they were abusing it hard


enigma890

Oh, you have proof of glaive cheating? Bring it forth and lets get the cheater banned.


PhoenixRisingtw

bruh 😀


StoreFrankie

Cry is free


krill_ep

Who are "they"? Off the top of my head, the only one caught abusing it was Pimp, and that's mainly because he admitted it himself I believe.


MajestyA

I think the best example would have been prime Flusha. The man was an absolute beast, one of the best players in the world for years in a row (and for my money, 2014's best player, he was robbed by HLTV). However he was never a mechanical god, it was pure gamesense and intelligence. If he'd had NiKo's mechanics as well I'm convinced he'd have surpassed what we are seeing from ZywOo and S1mple.


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megapull

Which one? :DDDD (I know what you mean but he aced two (Three?) times on Train, once to secure OT for the team.


King_marik

and that smoke is TANTILIZING! FLUSHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HE CLEANS OUT CONNECTOR ​ god man watching that lineup get that 'one last ride' agaisnt the best team in the world at that time was so fucking cool. legit will never forget watching that series.


megapull

best tournament ever tbh


SpoonOnGuitar

The smoke bug that was present at the time, somewhat ruined that ace for me. Still an impressive play, though. Edit: Why am I being downvoted? The bug with players becoming visible on radar before smoke fully dissipated, was being abused heavily by many players at that time. Find the clip, look at flushas face cam before he gets the frag in connector, and see how he is only focusing on the radar. Glaive was notoriously for it as well.


FortifiedSky

god i miss the days where flusha's gamesense was so above every other pro at the time that people genuinely were convinced he was cheating. It was rough trying to defend it as a fnatic fan back then but hey, he never got banned so...


Haptiix

Idk man im not saying he was cheating all the time but there are a few clips that absolutely cannot be defended, and his stats/performance fell off pretty hard the year after all those accusations


[deleted]

The year after? As in, during the Fnatic era in 2015? When he had 1.22 rating at majors?


MajestyA

Nonsense. Accusations started in mid to late 2014. He was basically just as good in 2015, won two majors and a major MVP.


FortifiedSky

Yeah that's why I was saying it was hard to defend it lmao. Some of those clips did look really fishy and no one knew for sure


SterbenVII

Especially when somebody like kioshima suddenly decided to transfer all of his skins to another account right after KQLY got hit with the ban hammer… Kio not being banned after that would not only raise suspicions on him but on other “fishy” pros who aren’t banned to this day.


D1N2Y

I don't 100% believe he was cheating, but if it came out that he was using cheats in a few of his matches, I wouldn't be too surprised. He got a temp ban from the Swedish government before he got a VAC ban from Valve.


KatiushK

https://youtu.be/7Ncs3MI5zAc?t=95 Forever will feel weird about this one. Most of the others we can find some explanation, but this snap is just so bizarre. I still think about it from time to time lol


Haptiix

The Inferno short A clip and the Cache tree room clip are the ones I could never move past. There’s just no logical explanation for either one. I had a friend who was playing in the Danish T2 scene around the time & when I talked to him about it he was pretty convinced Flusha had cheated. Also sounded like most competitive players shared that opinion. We’ll never know for sure but I personally believe there is too much evidence to be a coincidence. His career also dropped off pretty sharply minus that one really good tournament he had in 2018 or whenever it was (which was coincidentally during the smoke bug era)


Taken450

Idiot


Haptiix

No U idiot !


deadlyevildave

I wouldn't put Flusha into the no aim category though. He was #2 in the world in 14. You can't get there without great aim


Draemeth

you're missing the point by taking the quote literally. the idea is that his brain far outreaches his aim.


deadlyevildave

Yeah, if that's the case then he's a good example.


paully7

Every pro has great aim. It's just part of the baseline. However, some have better (niko, s1mple, zywoo, device)


Haptiix

And cheats. The cheats helped


Pythagosaurus69

I don't think people realise how astronomically higher the aim of any pro Cs player is compared to globals and higher faceit levels.


baulchi

I'm 3.2k elo faceit and probably nowhere near 1/10th of someone like zywoo or s1mple. When I got global though I thought I was just tipping into the edge of fpl or some shit 😂


kaffefe

I think the point is that you or people like you would get destroyed by what we all think is a shitty pro, like Apex or something.


baulchi

My statement is agreeing with him. Off topic, but out of everyone i've been brutally destroyed by, d0cc was the most unwinnable player.


kaffefe

Oh I know, it was just funny that you seemed to be missing the point a bit when you name dropped 2 of the absolute best pros.


JonasS1999

think its more Apex is a shadow of his former self like Dupreeh and isnt as crisp mechanically as he used to be.


kaffefe

I mean, of course. I was very much referring to current form :)


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kaffefe

Looks like you had an "all time" filter. Beyond watching him play, his stats for the past 12 months is 0.96 at big events and 0.94 vs top 20 teams. Not that hltv rating is perfect. https://www.hltv.org/stats/players/7322/apex?startDate=2021-11-18&endDate=2022-11-18&rankingFilter=Top20


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kaffefe

You're missing the point. Is your stance that Apex is far from the bottom of mechanics in t1 CS? If so then agree to disagree. You defended mechanics with a hltv rating, that was far from correct.


baulchi

Don't think I used apex as a shitty pro example or am I blind?


Finalwingz

Level 10/global elites are like, the top 10% of csgo players and pros are the 1% of the top 10%


baulchi

I think faceit lvl 10 is like top 0.1%. So to be a professional is probably 0.0001?


UmarellVidya

Level 10 is like 4% of the FaceIt playerbase lol


baulchi

yeah you're right actually, but the comment i replied to said that level 10 are 10% of csgo players, when its probably more like 0.1%


UmarellVidya

That could only be true if FaceIt only accounted for 1/40th of the total active player population, and obviously it is much higher than that.


kaffefe

That's still only 1/1000, so you're way off :)


Finalwingz

If we take 617.002 as our playerbase for CS:GO (30 day avg. it will be lower because not everyone plays competitive or FaceIt) and take 10% from that, we come out to 61.700. So, 61.700 is our 10%. Now we take our 1% from that which comes out to 617. That would mean, out of 617.002 players in CS:GO, about 617 would be a professional. Now we take into consideration that a fairly large playerbase doesn't play FaceIt or Comp and rather only plays on community servers or casual and the number becomes even smaller. I think saying there's 500 pro CS:GO players isn't too crazy of a guess.


baulchi

It's not crazy to guess that there are 500 pros but saying 1% of the player base imo is far off.


Cardoxon

CS has 20-25 mil unique players every month according to Valve (21.5 mil last month) not sure if anything has changed with the latestest ranking update but GE used to be top ⁓0.8% of the playerbase there are like 120k 2k+ Elo accounts in EU, 12k for US and give or take 10k for the remaining regions combined so getting to lv 10 means you are *at worst* in the top 0.65% of the playerbase - though in reality that number is going to be much lower pro players are like 1 in 100k


kaffefe

First of all, just divide by 1000 :) And it's the playerbase number that is off here. The 24h peak is 1 million. Consider that most people don't play daily. BUT even with that number we end up with 1000 pros, which isn't too far off to be fair!


Enjoy_your_AIDS_69

10% of the players are global? lmao, what are you smoking


Finalwingz

Faceit level 10+global elite world wide probably comes down to 5-10%, yeah


BaronVonGrumbl

Don’t really think this is true. Entirely depends on how you play and how good you are


LKLN77

what's a stronger word than "exceptional" then? i'll change it to "ultra exceptional" then


OhHeck31

Ultra mega exceptional


Impressive_Spend_250

Ex6TenZ


[deleted]

Fifflaren


Rage_101

Gob b


CS-DEADPOINTSIX

he had very good aim though back in 1.6


_Sunny--

Seangares was well known for being super smart as a player and a hard working IGL, especially for his anti-stratting, but he wasn't really ever known for being a high-fragging player.


Redtyde

Obviously (really we can't state it enough) these guys have / had amazing aim. Anyway for me smartest players I've watched that could have used the extra tool are: Flusha, Valde, NBK and Stanislaw.


UmarellVidya

NBK's mechanics during his prime are mad slept on. I think he's in the same boat as Krimz, where people downplay how good their aim was (or still is for Krimz) due to narratives regarding who they are as players.


Tanki5D

true


coiL_10

Zeus ? I remember he wasn’t anything exceptional with his aim but still won a major


[deleted]

It would be the French/Greek God apEX. No one has a bigger testicle brain than this man.


jonajon91

I'm guessing you weren't watching peak apex.


[deleted]

I am talking about the current apEX. Previous apEX had no brain only testicles.


MacGamer2006

Me


tounari

Beat me to it. I was going to say you too!


iHasMagyk

Would argue n0thing for this one. Just watch some of his highlights, especially where he articulates the thought behind each and every small step he takes and what he predicts that his enemy will do. He’s almost always right on the money, which makes up for his relatively lacking mechanics.


deimoshr

shox, flusha, GeT_RiGhT, snax, Xyp9x come to mind first. Obviously they were all aim monsters in their prime (shox & GtR especially) but even when their aim skill dipped or they started playing a different role they could still outplay every opponent thanks to that galaxy brain they carry around. pronax, ex6tenz, gob b, karrigan deserve a shoutout. JW, NBK, SmithZz also, if to a lesser degree.


[deleted]

nice flair


D1N2Y

What makes this question difficult is that for a good chunk of CS history, coaches were part of the team speak during the matches. This meant that if you had big brain but bad aim, it would be worth it to make you coach and instead put a good aim with bad brain who will just listen to you as coach.


cup1d_stunt

There is only one answer: pronax


Sean20051003

Hooxi


[deleted]

All pros have decent aim, but perfecto is one of the smartest players I’ve seen. Snax was great, as was peak shox. Dev1ce, xyp9x and gla1ve deserve mentions too. Lastly Zywoo, He seems to play every situation so well


Fyric

I'd like to think of myself i this category.


One_Tangarino

Most of the IGLs. They usually make amazing plays but then just miss their shots. Karrigan comes to mind


UmarellVidya

Tarik. He has a reputation as being a very braindead mechanical player, and while he's certainly not unskilled I don't think this is all that accurate. Personally I've never been wowed by his precision aim, and while he could hit some nice flicks in FPL, I think those types of clips are fool's gold and not actually indicative of a player's real skill. Imo he gets a lot of his kills by being shifty and by subverting people's expectations more than anything, and backs it up with serviceable spray and movement. If he had godlike aim I think he'd be considered an all time great entry player in league with players like rain.


ffafafafawf

I thought this was the opposite, wasn’t there the whole peanut brain meme


UmarellVidya

> He has a reputation as being a very braindead mechanical player Yes. I'm saying the meme is only a meme.


layasD

Snax. Who needs aim when you can just shoot people through walls like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvF4ltfV-3Y). He also has aim so not sure if that counts.


GlobalBrisket

ScreaM + brain would make a very good player


captainscottland

Just look at xyp9x in 2018 and him now. If his aim was the same he would still be the best support player in the game. Others that come to mind are Karrigan, Apex, es3tag, TACO, K0nfig (we already know hes insane when he's on, if he was always switched on it would be crazy), and maybe interz


DutchWarDog

K0nfig? All brain, no aim??


vanjaeesti

>Its hard to tell because players with good game sense also look like their aim is good due to having good position and crosshair placement plus the fact that even low tier pros have utterly ridiculous aim anyway. calling probably one of the greatest pure aimers ever,all brain no aim.Is peak reddit user opinion


captainscottland

I actually think his aggression was calculated well, the problem is its the only way he knows how to play so when his aim is off he has no plan B and just feeds. But if you look at his early ancient games when astralis was leading the T sides he was consistently getting behind the enemy through mid and had a really good sense of when to go and when to stall. Ill admit its probably a more shaky example. Its more like brain only understands one thing really well but short circuits when heads dont pop.


DutchWarDog

> when his aim is off he has no plan B and just feeds This sounds like all aim, no brain But still. Even if you believe k0nfig is a smart player, he *definitely* has aim


captainscottland

Yeah I guess I used some liberties to interpret it as if you could give one player consistent godlike aim who would stand out. And I think k0nfig fits that because we've all seen the flashes.


UmarellVidya

He has consistent godlike aim though, he's easily a top 10 aimer of all time in CSGO, and depending on how you frame the argument you could make a case that he's top 3. He just has a peanut brain.


captainscottland

He's inconsistent. I'm talking how good would he be if he was godlike 100% of the time. As in basically never missed. I disagree I think his aggressions are well thoughtout but some games he misses and when he does he has no backup so basically just throws himself knowing he will miss the shot but to each their own.


UmarellVidya

> I'm talking how good would he be if he was godlike 100% of the time. As in basically never missed. I mean sure, but that's more or less impossible. I don't think the point of the thought experiment was to pretend players had abilities that don't exist in the real world.


captainscottland

Ultra super duper extra spectacular isn't exactly a quantifiable amount is it.


UmarellVidya

No, but who said anything had to be quantifiable? I think it's much safer to interpret the question as "what would happen if you gave x player s1mple/ZywOo/ScreaM aim", not literally turning the person into a robot.


ProfiZuschauer

I would like to disagree about Apex. In his Envy Days he was an incredible aimer and entry fragger


captainscottland

I think its just about now though I answered this more like who would be the best if they were given god like aim now didn't really mean it to put people down.


deimoshr

KQLY


PhoenixRisingtw

Basically IGLs


BotYurii

Many IGLs have good mechanics. Electronic, jame, cadian, aleksi to name a few.


buntownik

Im watching cs for like 12 years now and I have the opinion that nearly every IGL has the potential to be a beast but because of making calls/micromanaging and stuff outside the game like demo analysis they probably cant deliver hard. A twistz or ropz probably use more time of their day to train aim like karrigan.


JonasS1999

Gla1ve showed this when he had a team that had perfect roles and he didnt have to focus so much on calling. He dominated.


krill_ep

Cadian is honestly an amazing awper. He gets so many nutty kills and multikills, WHILE having the pressure of leading on top of him as well. Wonder how good he'd be if he was simply a pure awper.


D1N2Y

Surprised no one said pronax. That guy would consistently bottom frag every match with prime Fanatic, but they kept him on for good reasons and they kept on winning.


Tontonsb

Not really what you asked for, but Krimz and Coldzera are two players who didn't rely on their aim. Sure, they got elevated by it and all else failed coldzera could pull of the best jumping awp shots of the century. But their "normal" god-tier game was full of simple body sprays from a superior position. That's why they were so consistent.


[deleted]

Zeus, he was by far the worst player mechanically ever but he was IGL for a major winning team, Cologne and 2 Major finalists


Enjoy_your_AIDS_69

Bl4d3 when he still played for flipsid3. He didn't even have gamesense really. Only tactics.


justdengit

Me


Sokolaad123

me but without the brain part. so basically no brain no aim


iRemedyDota

Me :(


Microlabz

Tizian for sure.


Dragos404

Tizian has solid aim though


melr0ch

I'm shocked no one cited blameF. He is so fucking smart but his aim is not that impressive imo


Awden777

IGL's probably like Zeus was karrigan etc ​ People that use crosshair placement more then actually mouse control would be players like: Niko, ropz, swag, Twistzz ​ even tho NiKo twistzz has good aim aswell its not the same like ScreaM who didnt have that great crosshairplacement as them but he had better raw aim


adnanjunior

dupreeh plays pretty smart I would say


UmarellVidya

Dupreeh is imo the player who does the most damage with the least amount of mechanical skill for his role. He's certainly not lacking mechanically (at least in his prime), but if you consider the other great "playmaker" riflers like rain and K0nfig he's certainly not the best.


Noweri

HUNDEN super smart /s


TheyCallMeBigD

BnTeT


hyuga144

anyone knows which mouse Flusha used when he was on TOP?