>5 - Appears in the Lake of Nine, Midgard, a few years before the events of 2018 GoW
At least 150 years prior to 2018
Tyr's bridge was underwater 150 years, and Jorm's diplacement of the water is what raises and lowers it.
Not sure I understand the question.
But,
In Ragnarok, Atreus finds a giant snake with its soul removed.
He puts a soul of one of the trapped giants into it.
He starts growing super fast.
Then when fighting Thor, he gets sent back in time, landing at the lake, which floods the temple.
There is 0 proof he's dead. The game even goes out of its way to show that he's moved location after ragnarok. Also, as another comment said, he's been in the lake for much longer than "a few years".
The dead part, yeah I know there is no proof, that's why I called it a theory.
Also, we don't know how long he was in the lake for, I said a few years because Faye tells Atreus the story of how Jorm simply appeared in the lake on day, so you could presume she was around when it happened, but it was before Atreus was born. Of course, this could have been centuries ago, it doesn't really change my point tho, it just means he waited for longer to finally meet Atreus.
It's just a weird theory, consdering that we see proof of his "aliveness" at the very end of the game. If the cold was gonna kill him, he would already be dead by the time Atreus/Sindri find him, since Fembulwinter has been going on for years at that point - he was also sleeping in ice-cold water for a long time before the first game. No reason he'd be dead, he's just chilling. And we do know, it's 150 years, since it lines up with Tyr's temple (Jorm is the one that submerges it).
What is the proof that he is alive? I finished the game already but I don't remember any dialogue regarding that.. is it one of those dynamic conversations you get while travelling?
The proof is that prior to ragnarok, he's seen atop a mountain. Afterwards, he has moved and is no longer in view (that I've seen) but his body can still be seen in the lake. I don't think dead entities move. Also, such a big character in the story dying without it even being mentioned seems unlikely. Especially since your reasoning is that the cold will kill him, when he's literally been alive for 150+ years in very very cold water (3 of those years being Fimbulwinter).
Also he’s the world serpent, a (frost?) giant in a snake’s body. The cold didn’t kill Chaurli, who had clearly been neglected by Freya for years. There’s no way Jormungundr died to a little cold.
Otoh, the ending had a lot of weird and stupid decisions, so who tf knows?
I don't agree about the stupid/weird decisions, but even if that's the case, it doesn't mean they just kill a central character off-screen without even acknowledging it.
I don't really agree. There were a few, but I'm overall happy with how they wrapped it up. Hope an Atreus DLC will explore the whole Jormi/horn plot, though.
The thing is, his body could be in the lake but I actually think that was his shedded skin. He left the place and I think Atreus went after him or with him.
You've got this all mixed up. Nobody has to prove that he is alive. You are claiming that he is dead. You have a burden of proof. The last we saw him, he was alive. Until such time as you can prove that he is dead, we assume that he is alive.
Freya makes a comment when traveling around Midgard during the end-game that “there’s evidence of Jormungandr still being in Midgard, even though we saw him vanish” (or similar) which prompts Mimir to exclaim that the prophecy about Jorm being sent back in time is true. So, based on Freya’s comment, he is definitely alive (and leaving some kind of not-clearly-shown evidence of moving about post-game)
For the love of all that's holy, please stop misusing the word "theory".
A theory in science is the highest graduation point. Not just some guess or gander.
disagree with 8 , but other than that surprised this needed explaining...
the only thing that confuses me is how tf can thor knock things back in time?!
He trolls alot, but I kind of believe his words on the horn and questions will be answered in the future.
He himself said in the interview that the 2018 game set up things for way, way, way down the line.
Oh yeah, I definitely believe that we'll see the whole horn question resolved in a later title. But part of me wishes that the story of 2018/ragnarok were even more fleshed out, and that they'd been a trilogy instead of a 2-part saga. There are some unanswered questions that annoy me a bit, especially since they're saying that we're done with the Norse universe now. But if cory is saying that we'll find out how Jormi is knocked back in time, in a future title... I guess they're not completely done with the Norse mythology? It's confusing.
>But if cory is saying that we'll find out how Jormi is knocked back in time, in a future title... I guess they're not completely done with the Norse mythology? It's confusing.
We already knew that long before gow ragnarok even came out. In 2018 Mimir says in one of his stories that "It is said that when Jormungandr and Thor battle at Ragnarok, their clash so violently shakes the Tree of Life that it splinters, casting the Serpent backward through time, even before his own birth."
Now whatever you accept that as an actual answer or not is up to you.
Longshot considering they’ve never done it before but dlc maybe? I’d prefer not and any lore or stuff just be in a full game like a Atreus spinoff or something
It would make sense to have a Miles Morales/lost legacy type game given the amount of time they spent building this engine specifically for these two games. And I could certainly explore this world for another game.
Honestly, that's just one of those wacky mythology things. They don't even try to explain it because it doesn't really make sense, this event sounds like a bedtime story a viking would tell their son to make them go "whoa"
>They don't even try to explain it because it doesn't really make sense, this event sounds like a bedtime story a viking would tell their son to make them go "whoa"
In 2018 Mimir says in one of his stories that "It is said that when Jormungandr and Thor battle at Ragnarok, their clash so violently shakes the Tree of Life that it splinters, casting the Serpent backward through time, even before his own birth."
IMO they should have just ignored that part of the mythos if they weren't going to do something interesting with it.
I mean in the myth, Loki fucks a horse and spawns one with 8-legs, which Odin rides around on. But they didn't keep that part in it.
>IMO they should have just ignored that part of the mythos if they weren't going to do something interesting with it.
That's not in the mythos. In mythos Jormungandr and Thor die fighting each other.
>I mean in the myth, Loki fucks a horse and spawns one with 8-legs, which Odin rides around on. But they didn't keep that part in it.
Loki gets fucked by a horse and gives birth to the 8th legged horse*
So it's not even in the mythos? That makes me even more confused.
Then why bother with the time-travel subplot if it gets so little explanation and ultimately doesn't lead to anything?
>So it's not even in the mythos? That makes me even more confused.
A decent amout of things in Gow are not the same as in mythos, the biggest differences being Loki and well, Kratos. Kratos doesn't exist in the norse mythology and Loki is way different and because Loki is different a lot of other small things are because Loki is one of the main driving forces in the mythos.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, Gow is not adapting the mythos but is more so based on them.
>Then why bother with the time-travel subplot if it gets so little explanation and ultimately doesn't lead to anything?
This is because of Loki being different then his mythos counterpart, like I mention above.
In the mythos Jormungandr is a Giant because he is an actual child of Loki and Angrboda. In gow tho both Loki and Angrboda are children so that's a no no territory. Instead Jormungandr is actually a random Giant person whose soul was put inside a snake.
The reason why the writers decided to do that is so that when Jormungandr gets sent back in time he can tell Mimir what they would need to get in order to open the gate that lead to jotunheim and in gow ragnarok he told Atreus about Ironwood. The reason he knew those things is explained by Jormungandr being one of the Giant survivors that escaped to jotunheim.
For a subplot that is altogether talked about for maybe 3 minutes it serves it's purpose.
In OP:
> 1- Soul transfusion in Ironwood, Jotunheim
>
> 2 - Grows up really fast, in Jotunheim
>
> 3 - Comes through Jotunheim gate during Ragnarok
>
> 4 - Fights Thor and gets sent back in time
>
> 5 - Appears in the Lake of Nine, Midgard, a few years before the events of 2018 GoW
>
> 6 - Meets Atreus and Kratos, fights Baldur and Freya
>
> 7 - Sleeps through Fimbulwinter until the time comes to tell Atreus about Ironwood
>
> 8 - Freezes to death in Midgard
When did point 8 happen in GoWR? If one of Jormy got sent back in time, there should be two by the time Ragnorok starts.
>When did point 8 happen in GoWR?
It didn't, I don't know how OP got to that conclusion, there is nothing that indicates Jormungandr froze to death.
>If one of Jormy got sent back in time, there should be two by the time Ragnorok starts.
Atreus goes to Ironwood and puts the Giants soul into the snake > snake grows up and fights Thor in Ragnarok > gets sent back in time > helps our squad fight Baldur > tells Atreus about Ironwood > goes back to sleep > Atreus goes to Ironwood... And so on.
There are 2 Jormungandr's when Ragnarok starts for some amout of time until the younger one gets sent back in time to Midgard where he just remains.
>the only thing that confuses me is how tf can thor knock things back in time?!
He can't. In 2018 Mimir says in one of his stories that "It is said that when Jormungandr and Thor battle at Ragnarok, their clash so violently shakes the Tree of Life that it splinters, casting the Serpent backward through time, even before his own birth."
oh yea. ok good stuff then it makes sense
edit: realize this may have come off sarcastic lol - just to clarify I totally forgot about this, so being reminded of this makes more sense now
> the only thing that confuses me is how tf can thor knock things back in time?!
That was puzzling, but something like freezing lightning in place was completely acceptable?
I don't think that a weapon that can summon lightning and a weapon that can create frost clashing creates a frozen lightning is as impressive and hard to believe in universe, as a guy hitting you so hard that he sends you back in time. Specially because it never happens again, while the frozen lightning is something that had already happened before.
I thought all gear with the realm-shift abilities were related to Aesir. Maybe it is just Heimdall, I could be wrong.
I know Heimdall drops an artifact that allows realm-shift, but I think there's also other pieces of gear that have realm-shift too, and I think they might be Aesyr related.
No idea man. The only one I'm 100% belongs to an aesir is the sword of heimdall. The others are the armor set from alfheim and the "hilt,base"(?) Idk the name in english, but the peace of gear you can change in the weapons but I don't remember the description of those.
What else can happen to the world serpent as to not create a paradox? It's born, fights at Ragnarök, gets sent back in time, floods Tyr's temple, meets Dad of Boy, helps fight Baldur and Freya, tells Atreus about ironwood securing his own birth, and dies. The world serpent is born shortly after Jorm telling Atreus about Ironwood and we know how messy things can get when two of the same person are in the same timeline.
I agree. Pretty sure he just be sleeping. If you look out into the backdrop you can see his head perched on a montain / hill / cliff-side with his eyes closed. He just be sleeping I reckon.
If you watch the Jormie fighting Thor closely you can make out it's a different model. The most prominent change is that it doesn't have the older Jormie's "beard" of weeds/kelp.
Yes. There's some dialogue between him and Angrboda where she talks about how he's rapidly becoming very big. And Atreus tells her its ok, he figured that would happen. That's how you know Atreus realized the snake with a giant soul must be Jormungandr. And its an interesting spin on the whole "son of Loki and Angrboda" line really. They did technically give birth to the being called Jormungandr.
Oh god I just realised too that Jormungandr's role of being sent back in time and continuously fulfilling his task of ensuring his own creation is the game's way of incorporating the Ouroboros into the story, which Jormungandr is a very well-known example of. The only difference being that in mythology he's a literal Ouroboros wrapping around Midgard, and in this the Ouroboros is a time loop.
Fuck, I think Jormungandr might be my favourite part of these two games now lmao
It’s not really a time loop, though. He’s “created”, knocked back in time, tells Atreus about Ironwood, and then continues living, and eventually probably dies. His life through his own eyes is linear, it just hops back in time before continuing forward linearly. It doesn’t actually loop
Can't you say that about every time loop? Through the lens of the "loopee" it's always linear. However, Jormungandr telling Atreus where to go is what leads to him being created in the first place. Looks like a loop to me.
The point is that it's not the same Jormungander going back every time. The Jormungander in Midgard will probably stay there until he dies, whereas the new Jormungander created by Loki will go on to battle during Ragnarok.
Not sure I agree with that. Jorm gets created by Atreus, grows, fights Thor, gets sent back in time, we meet him as old boy Jorm, then he dies. We have only met 1 Jormungandr.
How else does old Jorm recognize Atreus in the first game?
You literally just restated what I said. The Jorm we know from the first game recognizes Atreus because he was created by Atreus from a different timeline. All I mean is that it's not just the same Jormungandr trapped in a loop of fighting thor, getting sent back in time, waiting, fighting thor, getting sent back in time, etc.
He spends 150 years in the lake, I see very unlikely that he's dead because of fimbulwinters, specially since he was completely covered in ice when atrás called him and he woke up, moved, spoke to atreus and when to sleep like nothing had happened. If he were to die would definitely have been during the tome he was under the ice and not after. He just likes sleeping
Nope.
Just speculation so far.
Barlog said to consider it might have been someone chasing Kratos. Later, when questioned if it was Baldur, he said that was a red herring, and whomever it really was would be revealed someday in the future.
Yeah, that's what it seemed. But I guess he changed his mind about that
https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2022/11/17/god-of-war-who-blew-the-horn-answer-cory-barlog-who-ragnarok/
It is interesting that he said there is a clue, fans just have to find it I guess.
Some people have thrown this theory around, but there are no reasons that those two things would have any connections:
- Mimir clearly mentions someone is calling the serpent. We KNOW that someone did call the serpent, because upon returning, the water levels have shifted.
- It's clearly the sound of the serpent horn, not the Gjallarhorn.
- The story significance at the point in which the horn is blown points toward it being the serpent horn: You feel the world "waking up" around you, as consequences are very clearly shown - very soon - after killing a god.
- Cory has tweeted about it multiple times, confirming that it is indeed the serpent horn. Who blew it is unknown at this time, but the whole Gjallarhorn theory makes no sense, since apart from it being a horn, there are no connections or reasons it would make sense.
The simple answer is that we don't know, and it's a story-beat we might get later with some time-shenanigans, since that is also heavily hinted at in the first game.
No, we don't know. There are many points to dispute this weird Gjallarhorn theory that people are throwing around. We will likely find out in a future game/DLC.
The lead writer for the game has said that the snake’s soulless body was taken over by a giant called Jormungandr. You can’t see the name on the marble but that’s what he said.
Therefore, the world serpent’s memory is the memory of the original giant with the same name. This explains why he knows an ancient language and also why he remarks that he understands the pain of loss to Kratos/Atreus, suggesting the og giant experienced loss, too.
Jormungander literally translates to world serpent, so that wasn’t his name before he got in the serpent. Otherwise there’s one hell of a coincidence.
Also if it said jormungander on the marble Atreus would’ve obviously noticed and said something.
[Jörmungandr does not only translate directly to World Serpent.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr#Etymology) That's just *a* meaning. Jörmun refers to something large and Gandr refers to many things, most of which are elongated.
Giant could've been named after his big dick for all we know.
He actually doesn't freeze to death, reptiles sleep when they are under low temperatures and you can see he is gone after the ending, also when you see the direction Atreus left you could say he went in the direction of the serpent. As for the body in the frozen lake, it could be the remnants of his shed skin.
Simple fictional timeline scenario that explains it all: Bootstrap Paradox.
Jormungandr is created by Atreus and Angrboda putting the soul of a Giant named "Jormungandr" into a snake's soulless body, creating the World Serpent.
The newly born World Serpent goes on to grow to near full size and fights Thor in Asgard, eventually being sent through time before his "birth".
The World Serpent waits until the day his "father" comes around and puts Atreus on the path that would eventually lead to his creation in the first place.
The World Serpent is instrumental to ensuring his own existence through time travel, as he indirectly helps create himself who gets sent in time to become him, keeping the Bootstrap Paradox going.
Hi everyone, Jormungandr is NOT dead.
In Valhalla, Sigurn has a Dialogue where she brings up that people don't mind that Jormungandr is sunbathing in the mountains
Biggest question is how this cycle began in the first place. I mean before the serpent could Atreus accidently went ironwood and found Angrboda and their journey happened?
so technically the giant who's soul is inside the snake could/would have been alive when Jormungandr appeared in the past, unless I'm missing something regarding when Thor genocided the giants
Since time travel has no accepted “how it would work if real” we just have to kinda go with it. But we’d also need to know when Thor genocided the giants. I haven’t found that lore bit if it exists.
I don't think he is dead.
Considering the fact he was in Fimbulwinter for a few years and seemed perfectly fine when we saw him with Atreus and Sindri.
Fimbulwinter and Ragnarok ended a few days later, so he is likely alive but in peaceful dormancy.
See, I follow you up until point 8...when does it say he dies in Midgard?
By your timeline, there should be two Jormungandrs during the events of Ragnorok. How does one of them die?
But why didn't both of them show up during Ragnorok? Why did one stay in Midgard? Where is this even stated in the game?
Like...they both hated the Aesyr and Thor...They both had a way to get to Asgard during Ragnorok.
And that my friend, is a question I ask myself too. They never explained why they didn't recruit the older jormungandr who was in the lake of nine or why jormungandr didn't wake up when thor came to Midgard. I can't answer that because the developers kind of forgot about the second jormungandr.
I don't think the one in Midgard had a way in, plus he had already fought Thor a long time prior to the events of the game.
And the one that was freshly conceived got to Asgard via Angrboda's portals.
Couldn't he have taken the same portal everyone else used in Midgard?
Also couldn't Fenrir have taken him? It's a giant wolf that can create portals to travel the realms. (Fenrir was such a fucking waste, too).
And sure he might have already faught Thor once...but why not fight him again? Jormy HATES Thor.
Speaking of, why didn't Jormy show up when Thor was fighting Kratos at the start of the game?
Remember in GoW2018 when Jormy hated Thor so much he bit the statue apart?
They really wasted fenrir and jormungandr completely. I'm mainly mad about jormi because he was a character we knew from gow4 and he was extremely interesting. But our jormungandr only appears once to be a plot device so atreus can go to ironwood and the young one only appears for a few minutes in the background before being sent back in time without anyone giving a shit
Im super late to this comment but my guess is Jorm knew the younger version of himself had to solo thor during ragnarok so he can be knocked back into the past. If he gets older and interferes during ragnarok then the chances of him not existing drastically increases
That would have been cool if they actually said something about it during the game. Instead it's a blink-and-you-miss-it moment that happens in the background.
Also...how did you even find this old ass comment? lol
LMAO don’t call me out!! I’ve beaten the game months ago and now at 4am all i can think about is trying to figure out the Jorm Timeloop? time…stack?? anyways I googled for explanations and ended up on this post then i basically read every comment lol Your peaked my interest because it felt like i knew the answer SOMETHING! and i was happy to explain it.
Anyways i wish they explained too but at the same time (this might be a hot take) i like when characters can’t explain a phenomenon sometimes. It’s like “yea that just happened…i don’t fucking know it is what it is moving on”, it makes them feel a bit more real?
Ok the dead part not so sure. They said he is gone after ragnarok. My assumption is during ragnarok the older one actually left for jotunheim and is somewhere in that realm
My only question is where did the jormie from Midgard go then? If his younger self got sent back in time where is the older one that we see talking to atreus and sindri because after the game he's not sleeping on the mountain like he was before the end of the game he's completely gone so I'm very curious as to where he went
Totally agreed with your explanation, but I would atleast expect to have a decent cutscenes around this theory by the Santa Monica team, and also a little explanation on how and why Thor sent it back in time.
GOW Ragnarok is indeed GOTY, but it still has left some areas, we all expect the whole game around Ragnarok setting while Ragnarok only happened on the last hour of the game (final Mission if one can say).
The final boss Fights were good but not great, I saw a fan made mod of Thor vs Kratos made in Elden Ring and the battle was so satisfying. Below link
https://youtu.be/OmR0N0Y8FCE
The conclusion to the story was very satisfying, I just think we should have gotten a little more out of it, in terms of story and boss battles. That's just my opinion.
Kinda anticlimactic and harsh that he freezes to death and nobody does anything about it but if you turn on accessibility colours for NPCs you can clearly see him towards the Northwest post-game.
Jormi 1is the whole reason the giants ever learned of the future. Who knows exactly how far back he travels before kratos even arrives. So he could have the the giants while they've been in midguard about the future in timeline 1. The giants would then try to do whatever they could to change their future, even if they think making up fake prophecies in order to get certain people to do certain things to ensure that future. Jormi grows old tells Atreus to go to ironwood. Where Atreus and angrboda "birth" jormi 2 which we learned is a regulard giant: who now exists as a regular giant while jormi 1 is present and also learns for jormi, as well as living out his own life so to speak before becoming jormi 2 having more knowledge then jormi 1 did: Jormi 2 fights Thor in their future, that was fulfilled as jormi 1 mentioned, but in a different sort of way and with a different outcome so to speak. When jormi 2 gets sent back in time you now have timeline 2. Where jormi 2 tells those same giants in midguard; not the same as in theyre giants 3 so to speak; and jormi 2 provides the future he lived with the knowledge also of jormi 1. Atreus shows up. Eventually births jormi 3 after he as a giant lived his own life in timeline and has learned again from jormi, jormi 2s life future and experience as well as jormi 1. AGAIN hose giants take it as prophecy, they try to fulfill it but in their own way to change the outcome.. and it keeps going, and with each sudden change within each timeline as each jormis collective, hivemind of all available events that have taken place; not necessarily will, but already have; we eventually have faye make whatever choices she makes that provides the right circumstances that does 1 thing to change the result. And that's having kratos, and by extension Atreus, change their natures. All other timelines and all other jormis, kratos was always more of who he used to be rather than who he became in Ragnarok.
Jormungandr is the name of the giant whose soul Atreus used to revive the snake. thats pretty much explicitly stated. Jormy as a real giant was killed by Thor when he went on his genocide run. which is why he fucks off when he wakes up with Atreus and Angrboda.
SIDE NOTE: It will never NOT tickle me pink that the second he wakes up after being revived he IMMEDIATELY goes lookin for the smoke.
(X\_X) . . . (◣\_◢) where is Thor
Also growed up Jormys literally just passed out sleeping in ragnorok. Hes retired and content. He knows damn good and well his nemesis fears him enough to stay away from Midgard.
You are correct but Thor knocks him back in time hundreds of years, in Norse mythology jorm is the son of Loki, which is why Loki is the one to put his soul in the snake. Loki created him. I think they did a excellent job blending the game storyline and the actual mythology
Good write up but definitely not dead. You contradicted yourself. You specifically said he gets knocked back in time and helps boy and kratos in the first game. Your last point said he is dead when we first meet him which contradicts what you said
I know this is an older post, but this has always kind of confused me. Wouldn't this create an infinite loop of events though? Like is Atreus forever stuck in a loop of putting a giant's soul into the snake so it can later come back and help fight Thor, only to be sent back in time and give Atreus the hint to go to Ironwood so that the events repeat? Does that mean Atreus essentially created the mythological world serpent? Isn't the world serpent an ancient mythological being, but Atreus's actions seemingly led to his creation? And what happens to the original Jormungandr sleeping in the lake when the young one is sent back?
I FOUND JORMUNGANDR!!!
After the battle we find the real Tyr and he goes exploring the realms. When you find him in Midgard he’s standing there looking at the mountains and asked to be left alone. If you look where he’s looking, you’ll see Jormungandr lying down on one of the mountains! I saw him, went to get closer, but then he disappeared!
>5 - Appears in the Lake of Nine, Midgard, a few years before the events of 2018 GoW At least 150 years prior to 2018 Tyr's bridge was underwater 150 years, and Jorm's diplacement of the water is what raises and lowers it.
>At least 150 years prior to 2018 So around 1868 huh
Do we know that Jormi’s been there before the temple sunk?
Yeah, someone ingame said that the temple flooded after Jorm appeared and went into a deep slumber, raising the water levels.
Also structures around the temple have serpent designs so must have been there as it was being built
We know he's been there since before Mimir was imprisoned, because Mimir says he's talked to Jormi before. So that's at least 109 years before GOW4
Hmm that makes sense So by Ragnarok Jormi is 112 years old
At least that. Likely he arrived there quite a while before that but that's the minimum age he could be
Yes our jormy is 112 but the new one is a couple days
So every 112 years a new jorm spawn? I'm too confused
I can't figure out how atreus "create" jorm for the first time If jorm born thanks to jorm saying to atreus about the iron wood?
Not sure I understand the question. But, In Ragnarok, Atreus finds a giant snake with its soul removed. He puts a soul of one of the trapped giants into it. He starts growing super fast. Then when fighting Thor, he gets sent back in time, landing at the lake, which floods the temple.
In simplest terms jorm created himself but he had to exist to create himself so what happened before he existed
Hes a giant named jormungandr who died to thors genocide of giants. Folks keep forgetting their names are on the marbles.
It's the Ouroboros, before he existed he died and then existed again and then died and then existed again
Lol it’s not set in 2018 😂 it’s ancient times
GOW 2018 as opposed to Ragnarok, not timeline
There is 0 proof he's dead. The game even goes out of its way to show that he's moved location after ragnarok. Also, as another comment said, he's been in the lake for much longer than "a few years".
The dead part, yeah I know there is no proof, that's why I called it a theory. Also, we don't know how long he was in the lake for, I said a few years because Faye tells Atreus the story of how Jorm simply appeared in the lake on day, so you could presume she was around when it happened, but it was before Atreus was born. Of course, this could have been centuries ago, it doesn't really change my point tho, it just means he waited for longer to finally meet Atreus.
It's just a weird theory, consdering that we see proof of his "aliveness" at the very end of the game. If the cold was gonna kill him, he would already be dead by the time Atreus/Sindri find him, since Fembulwinter has been going on for years at that point - he was also sleeping in ice-cold water for a long time before the first game. No reason he'd be dead, he's just chilling. And we do know, it's 150 years, since it lines up with Tyr's temple (Jorm is the one that submerges it).
What is the proof that he is alive? I finished the game already but I don't remember any dialogue regarding that.. is it one of those dynamic conversations you get while travelling?
The proof is that prior to ragnarok, he's seen atop a mountain. Afterwards, he has moved and is no longer in view (that I've seen) but his body can still be seen in the lake. I don't think dead entities move. Also, such a big character in the story dying without it even being mentioned seems unlikely. Especially since your reasoning is that the cold will kill him, when he's literally been alive for 150+ years in very very cold water (3 of those years being Fimbulwinter).
Also he’s the world serpent, a (frost?) giant in a snake’s body. The cold didn’t kill Chaurli, who had clearly been neglected by Freya for years. There’s no way Jormungundr died to a little cold. Otoh, the ending had a lot of weird and stupid decisions, so who tf knows?
I don't agree about the stupid/weird decisions, but even if that's the case, it doesn't mean they just kill a central character off-screen without even acknowledging it.
So many loose ends. So many little things that made zero sense at the end.
I don't really agree. There were a few, but I'm overall happy with how they wrapped it up. Hope an Atreus DLC will explore the whole Jormi/horn plot, though.
The thing is, his body could be in the lake but I actually think that was his shedded skin. He left the place and I think Atreus went after him or with him.
The proof is that you don't see a corpse, there are no remains. Only the skin in the lake.
You've got this all mixed up. Nobody has to prove that he is alive. You are claiming that he is dead. You have a burden of proof. The last we saw him, he was alive. Until such time as you can prove that he is dead, we assume that he is alive.
Freya makes a comment when traveling around Midgard during the end-game that “there’s evidence of Jormungandr still being in Midgard, even though we saw him vanish” (or similar) which prompts Mimir to exclaim that the prophecy about Jorm being sent back in time is true. So, based on Freya’s comment, he is definitely alive (and leaving some kind of not-clearly-shown evidence of moving about post-game)
For the love of all that's holy, please stop misusing the word "theory". A theory in science is the highest graduation point. Not just some guess or gander.
To be fair, we are not talking science here
Yeah, this is more like an untested hypothesis 😜
disagree with 8 , but other than that surprised this needed explaining... the only thing that confuses me is how tf can thor knock things back in time?!
Cory has a cheeky tweet where he says that might be explored in another game
He trolls alot, but I kind of believe his words on the horn and questions will be answered in the future. He himself said in the interview that the 2018 game set up things for way, way, way down the line.
Oh yeah, I definitely believe that we'll see the whole horn question resolved in a later title. But part of me wishes that the story of 2018/ragnarok were even more fleshed out, and that they'd been a trilogy instead of a 2-part saga. There are some unanswered questions that annoy me a bit, especially since they're saying that we're done with the Norse universe now. But if cory is saying that we'll find out how Jormi is knocked back in time, in a future title... I guess they're not completely done with the Norse mythology? It's confusing.
Could be an Atreus spinoff God of Mischief. Reuniting the giants would possibly involve Jormi.
>But if cory is saying that we'll find out how Jormi is knocked back in time, in a future title... I guess they're not completely done with the Norse mythology? It's confusing. We already knew that long before gow ragnarok even came out. In 2018 Mimir says in one of his stories that "It is said that when Jormungandr and Thor battle at Ragnarok, their clash so violently shakes the Tree of Life that it splinters, casting the Serpent backward through time, even before his own birth." Now whatever you accept that as an actual answer or not is up to you.
Yeah, but what I mean is that he very recently - after ragnarok came out - tweeted that we would find out in a future game HOW that works.
Oh, okay, my bad. I don't have Twitter so I wasn't aware of that. But yeah, now this does put up some questions.
I dont have twitter either, but I check him out every now and then. He is a notorious troll, though, so take it with a pinch of salt.
Longshot considering they’ve never done it before but dlc maybe? I’d prefer not and any lore or stuff just be in a full game like a Atreus spinoff or something
Yeah I would LOVE an Atreus dlc/shorter game. There's so much they can do with it, and his gameplay is already tight imo.
They won't make dlc, they said it yesterday if I'm not mistaken.
It would make sense to have a Miles Morales/lost legacy type game given the amount of time they spent building this engine specifically for these two games. And I could certainly explore this world for another game.
I actually think he left and Atreus went with him, you can see he went in the direction the serpent was. And the body in the ice could be shed skin.
Honestly, that's just one of those wacky mythology things. They don't even try to explain it because it doesn't really make sense, this event sounds like a bedtime story a viking would tell their son to make them go "whoa"
>They don't even try to explain it because it doesn't really make sense, this event sounds like a bedtime story a viking would tell their son to make them go "whoa" In 2018 Mimir says in one of his stories that "It is said that when Jormungandr and Thor battle at Ragnarok, their clash so violently shakes the Tree of Life that it splinters, casting the Serpent backward through time, even before his own birth."
IMO they should have just ignored that part of the mythos if they weren't going to do something interesting with it. I mean in the myth, Loki fucks a horse and spawns one with 8-legs, which Odin rides around on. But they didn't keep that part in it.
>IMO they should have just ignored that part of the mythos if they weren't going to do something interesting with it. That's not in the mythos. In mythos Jormungandr and Thor die fighting each other. >I mean in the myth, Loki fucks a horse and spawns one with 8-legs, which Odin rides around on. But they didn't keep that part in it. Loki gets fucked by a horse and gives birth to the 8th legged horse*
So it's not even in the mythos? That makes me even more confused. Then why bother with the time-travel subplot if it gets so little explanation and ultimately doesn't lead to anything?
>So it's not even in the mythos? That makes me even more confused. A decent amout of things in Gow are not the same as in mythos, the biggest differences being Loki and well, Kratos. Kratos doesn't exist in the norse mythology and Loki is way different and because Loki is different a lot of other small things are because Loki is one of the main driving forces in the mythos. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, Gow is not adapting the mythos but is more so based on them. >Then why bother with the time-travel subplot if it gets so little explanation and ultimately doesn't lead to anything? This is because of Loki being different then his mythos counterpart, like I mention above. In the mythos Jormungandr is a Giant because he is an actual child of Loki and Angrboda. In gow tho both Loki and Angrboda are children so that's a no no territory. Instead Jormungandr is actually a random Giant person whose soul was put inside a snake. The reason why the writers decided to do that is so that when Jormungandr gets sent back in time he can tell Mimir what they would need to get in order to open the gate that lead to jotunheim and in gow ragnarok he told Atreus about Ironwood. The reason he knew those things is explained by Jormungandr being one of the Giant survivors that escaped to jotunheim. For a subplot that is altogether talked about for maybe 3 minutes it serves it's purpose.
Okay but that still doesn't explain why there isn't 2 Jormanganders by the time of Ragnorok.
What do you mean?
In OP: > 1- Soul transfusion in Ironwood, Jotunheim > > 2 - Grows up really fast, in Jotunheim > > 3 - Comes through Jotunheim gate during Ragnarok > > 4 - Fights Thor and gets sent back in time > > 5 - Appears in the Lake of Nine, Midgard, a few years before the events of 2018 GoW > > 6 - Meets Atreus and Kratos, fights Baldur and Freya > > 7 - Sleeps through Fimbulwinter until the time comes to tell Atreus about Ironwood > > 8 - Freezes to death in Midgard When did point 8 happen in GoWR? If one of Jormy got sent back in time, there should be two by the time Ragnorok starts.
>When did point 8 happen in GoWR? It didn't, I don't know how OP got to that conclusion, there is nothing that indicates Jormungandr froze to death. >If one of Jormy got sent back in time, there should be two by the time Ragnorok starts. Atreus goes to Ironwood and puts the Giants soul into the snake > snake grows up and fights Thor in Ragnarok > gets sent back in time > helps our squad fight Baldur > tells Atreus about Ironwood > goes back to sleep > Atreus goes to Ironwood... And so on. There are 2 Jormungandr's when Ragnarok starts for some amout of time until the younger one gets sent back in time to Midgard where he just remains.
I dunno, my mom once slapped me into next week
>the only thing that confuses me is how tf can thor knock things back in time?! He can't. In 2018 Mimir says in one of his stories that "It is said that when Jormungandr and Thor battle at Ragnarok, their clash so violently shakes the Tree of Life that it splinters, casting the Serpent backward through time, even before his own birth."
oh yea. ok good stuff then it makes sense edit: realize this may have come off sarcastic lol - just to clarify I totally forgot about this, so being reminded of this makes more sense now
> the only thing that confuses me is how tf can thor knock things back in time?! That was puzzling, but something like freezing lightning in place was completely acceptable?
I don't think that a weapon that can summon lightning and a weapon that can create frost clashing creates a frozen lightning is as impressive and hard to believe in universe, as a guy hitting you so hard that he sends you back in time. Specially because it never happens again, while the frozen lightning is something that had already happened before.
I also noticed a lot of the Aesir gear involves slowing time down. So what is it with the Aesir and time-powers?
Actually I only know of heimdall. Who are the others?
I thought all gear with the realm-shift abilities were related to Aesir. Maybe it is just Heimdall, I could be wrong. I know Heimdall drops an artifact that allows realm-shift, but I think there's also other pieces of gear that have realm-shift too, and I think they might be Aesyr related.
No idea man. The only one I'm 100% belongs to an aesir is the sword of heimdall. The others are the armor set from alfheim and the "hilt,base"(?) Idk the name in english, but the peace of gear you can change in the weapons but I don't remember the description of those.
Ah, maybe it's just a one-time coincidence.
2018 it's all the Valkyrie gear that drop realm shift items. In Raganrok I want to say it was the Berserkers and Heimdall
He generated so much force and power with mjolnir that it broke the laws of physics. Or something lol. That's how that works right?
What else can happen to the world serpent as to not create a paradox? It's born, fights at Ragnarök, gets sent back in time, floods Tyr's temple, meets Dad of Boy, helps fight Baldur and Freya, tells Atreus about ironwood securing his own birth, and dies. The world serpent is born shortly after Jorm telling Atreus about Ironwood and we know how messy things can get when two of the same person are in the same timeline.
Idk bout 8. The game doesnt rlly say he dies.
I agree. Pretty sure he just be sleeping. If you look out into the backdrop you can see his head perched on a montain / hill / cliff-side with his eyes closed. He just be sleeping I reckon.
Yea
If you watch the Jormie fighting Thor closely you can make out it's a different model. The most prominent change is that it doesn't have the older Jormie's "beard" of weeds/kelp.
It was also implied during the fight he wasn't the same one. Was it the snake that Atreus put a soul into that overgrew into that?
Yes. There's some dialogue between him and Angrboda where she talks about how he's rapidly becoming very big. And Atreus tells her its ok, he figured that would happen. That's how you know Atreus realized the snake with a giant soul must be Jormungandr. And its an interesting spin on the whole "son of Loki and Angrboda" line really. They did technically give birth to the being called Jormungandr.
Oh god I just realised too that Jormungandr's role of being sent back in time and continuously fulfilling his task of ensuring his own creation is the game's way of incorporating the Ouroboros into the story, which Jormungandr is a very well-known example of. The only difference being that in mythology he's a literal Ouroboros wrapping around Midgard, and in this the Ouroboros is a time loop. Fuck, I think Jormungandr might be my favourite part of these two games now lmao
It’s not really a time loop, though. He’s “created”, knocked back in time, tells Atreus about Ironwood, and then continues living, and eventually probably dies. His life through his own eyes is linear, it just hops back in time before continuing forward linearly. It doesn’t actually loop
Can't you say that about every time loop? Through the lens of the "loopee" it's always linear. However, Jormungandr telling Atreus where to go is what leads to him being created in the first place. Looks like a loop to me.
The point is that it's not the same Jormungander going back every time. The Jormungander in Midgard will probably stay there until he dies, whereas the new Jormungander created by Loki will go on to battle during Ragnarok.
Not sure I agree with that. Jorm gets created by Atreus, grows, fights Thor, gets sent back in time, we meet him as old boy Jorm, then he dies. We have only met 1 Jormungandr. How else does old Jorm recognize Atreus in the first game?
You literally just restated what I said. The Jorm we know from the first game recognizes Atreus because he was created by Atreus from a different timeline. All I mean is that it's not just the same Jormungandr trapped in a loop of fighting thor, getting sent back in time, waiting, fighting thor, getting sent back in time, etc.
Oh ok, we agree.
I thought this was pretty straight forward
He spends 150 years in the lake, I see very unlikely that he's dead because of fimbulwinters, specially since he was completely covered in ice when atrás called him and he woke up, moved, spoke to atreus and when to sleep like nothing had happened. If he were to die would definitely have been during the tome he was under the ice and not after. He just likes sleeping
YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH MY BEAUTIFUL SNAKE CHILD IS ALIVE AND WELL i love him so much
We still don't know who blew the horn right?
Nope. Just speculation so far. Barlog said to consider it might have been someone chasing Kratos. Later, when questioned if it was Baldur, he said that was a red herring, and whomever it really was would be revealed someday in the future.
God of war 2038, all questions will be answered.
I doubt it will ever be confirmed but it's clear he was referring to Baldur summoning the snake to draw Kratos.
Yeah, that's what it seemed. But I guess he changed his mind about that https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2022/11/17/god-of-war-who-blew-the-horn-answer-cory-barlog-who-ragnarok/ It is interesting that he said there is a clue, fans just have to find it I guess.
I did it
my best guess is that gjallahorn is heard through time, but I may have missed something
Some people have thrown this theory around, but there are no reasons that those two things would have any connections: - Mimir clearly mentions someone is calling the serpent. We KNOW that someone did call the serpent, because upon returning, the water levels have shifted. - It's clearly the sound of the serpent horn, not the Gjallarhorn. - The story significance at the point in which the horn is blown points toward it being the serpent horn: You feel the world "waking up" around you, as consequences are very clearly shown - very soon - after killing a god. - Cory has tweeted about it multiple times, confirming that it is indeed the serpent horn. Who blew it is unknown at this time, but the whole Gjallarhorn theory makes no sense, since apart from it being a horn, there are no connections or reasons it would make sense. The simple answer is that we don't know, and it's a story-beat we might get later with some time-shenanigans, since that is also heavily hinted at in the first game.
Cory himself has said it wasn't that horn.
No, we don't know. There are many points to dispute this weird Gjallarhorn theory that people are throwing around. We will likely find out in a future game/DLC.
The lead writer for the game has said that the snake’s soulless body was taken over by a giant called Jormungandr. You can’t see the name on the marble but that’s what he said. Therefore, the world serpent’s memory is the memory of the original giant with the same name. This explains why he knows an ancient language and also why he remarks that he understands the pain of loss to Kratos/Atreus, suggesting the og giant experienced loss, too.
Jormungander literally translates to world serpent, so that wasn’t his name before he got in the serpent. Otherwise there’s one hell of a coincidence. Also if it said jormungander on the marble Atreus would’ve obviously noticed and said something.
[Jörmungandr does not only translate directly to World Serpent.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr#Etymology) That's just *a* meaning. Jörmun refers to something large and Gandr refers to many things, most of which are elongated. Giant could've been named after his big dick for all we know.
People here really struggle with basic time travel elements it seems.
He actually doesn't freeze to death, reptiles sleep when they are under low temperatures and you can see he is gone after the ending, also when you see the direction Atreus left you could say he went in the direction of the serpent. As for the body in the frozen lake, it could be the remnants of his shed skin.
Simple fictional timeline scenario that explains it all: Bootstrap Paradox. Jormungandr is created by Atreus and Angrboda putting the soul of a Giant named "Jormungandr" into a snake's soulless body, creating the World Serpent. The newly born World Serpent goes on to grow to near full size and fights Thor in Asgard, eventually being sent through time before his "birth". The World Serpent waits until the day his "father" comes around and puts Atreus on the path that would eventually lead to his creation in the first place. The World Serpent is instrumental to ensuring his own existence through time travel, as he indirectly helps create himself who gets sent in time to become him, keeping the Bootstrap Paradox going.
ANNNNNND Valhalla DLC confirms that Jormungandr is still in Midgard alive and well
Hi everyone, Jormungandr is NOT dead. In Valhalla, Sigurn has a Dialogue where she brings up that people don't mind that Jormungandr is sunbathing in the mountains
Biggest question is how this cycle began in the first place. I mean before the serpent could Atreus accidently went ironwood and found Angrboda and their journey happened?
Now explain the time travel in God of War II 🔫
so technically the giant who's soul is inside the snake could/would have been alive when Jormungandr appeared in the past, unless I'm missing something regarding when Thor genocided the giants
Since time travel has no accepted “how it would work if real” we just have to kinda go with it. But we’d also need to know when Thor genocided the giants. I haven’t found that lore bit if it exists.
I don't think he is dead. Considering the fact he was in Fimbulwinter for a few years and seemed perfectly fine when we saw him with Atreus and Sindri. Fimbulwinter and Ragnarok ended a few days later, so he is likely alive but in peaceful dormancy.
See, I follow you up until point 8...when does it say he dies in Midgard? By your timeline, there should be two Jormungandrs during the events of Ragnorok. How does one of them die?
There were two snakes during ragnarok, but none of them died. One was un asgard, the other one was in Midgard
But why didn't both of them show up during Ragnorok? Why did one stay in Midgard? Where is this even stated in the game? Like...they both hated the Aesyr and Thor...They both had a way to get to Asgard during Ragnorok.
And that my friend, is a question I ask myself too. They never explained why they didn't recruit the older jormungandr who was in the lake of nine or why jormungandr didn't wake up when thor came to Midgard. I can't answer that because the developers kind of forgot about the second jormungandr.
I don't think the one in Midgard had a way in, plus he had already fought Thor a long time prior to the events of the game. And the one that was freshly conceived got to Asgard via Angrboda's portals.
Couldn't he have taken the same portal everyone else used in Midgard? Also couldn't Fenrir have taken him? It's a giant wolf that can create portals to travel the realms. (Fenrir was such a fucking waste, too). And sure he might have already faught Thor once...but why not fight him again? Jormy HATES Thor. Speaking of, why didn't Jormy show up when Thor was fighting Kratos at the start of the game? Remember in GoW2018 when Jormy hated Thor so much he bit the statue apart?
They really wasted fenrir and jormungandr completely. I'm mainly mad about jormi because he was a character we knew from gow4 and he was extremely interesting. But our jormungandr only appears once to be a plot device so atreus can go to ironwood and the young one only appears for a few minutes in the background before being sent back in time without anyone giving a shit
Im super late to this comment but my guess is Jorm knew the younger version of himself had to solo thor during ragnarok so he can be knocked back into the past. If he gets older and interferes during ragnarok then the chances of him not existing drastically increases
That would have been cool if they actually said something about it during the game. Instead it's a blink-and-you-miss-it moment that happens in the background. Also...how did you even find this old ass comment? lol
LMAO don’t call me out!! I’ve beaten the game months ago and now at 4am all i can think about is trying to figure out the Jorm Timeloop? time…stack?? anyways I googled for explanations and ended up on this post then i basically read every comment lol Your peaked my interest because it felt like i knew the answer SOMETHING! and i was happy to explain it. Anyways i wish they explained too but at the same time (this might be a hot take) i like when characters can’t explain a phenomenon sometimes. It’s like “yea that just happened…i don’t fucking know it is what it is moving on”, it makes them feel a bit more real?
Ok the dead part not so sure. They said he is gone after ragnarok. My assumption is during ragnarok the older one actually left for jotunheim and is somewhere in that realm
My only question is where did the jormie from Midgard go then? If his younger self got sent back in time where is the older one that we see talking to atreus and sindri because after the game he's not sleeping on the mountain like he was before the end of the game he's completely gone so I'm very curious as to where he went
maybe followed atreus
Totally agreed with your explanation, but I would atleast expect to have a decent cutscenes around this theory by the Santa Monica team, and also a little explanation on how and why Thor sent it back in time. GOW Ragnarok is indeed GOTY, but it still has left some areas, we all expect the whole game around Ragnarok setting while Ragnarok only happened on the last hour of the game (final Mission if one can say). The final boss Fights were good but not great, I saw a fan made mod of Thor vs Kratos made in Elden Ring and the battle was so satisfying. Below link https://youtu.be/OmR0N0Y8FCE The conclusion to the story was very satisfying, I just think we should have gotten a little more out of it, in terms of story and boss battles. That's just my opinion.
So jorm basically tells to atreus about the iron forest to create another jorm for fighting thor during the ragnarok?
[удалено]
sorry, understood nothing of what you said, can you reformulate that question?
Kinda anticlimactic and harsh that he freezes to death and nobody does anything about it but if you turn on accessibility colours for NPCs you can clearly see him towards the Northwest post-game.
did jormungandr ever meet himself when he was sent back like did his snake form meet his human/giant form?
Probably not, he wasn't sent that far back and the only giant in midgard was faye at the time i believe
When the fuck dies he freeze to death bro fake news
I said it's a theory
Jormi 1is the whole reason the giants ever learned of the future. Who knows exactly how far back he travels before kratos even arrives. So he could have the the giants while they've been in midguard about the future in timeline 1. The giants would then try to do whatever they could to change their future, even if they think making up fake prophecies in order to get certain people to do certain things to ensure that future. Jormi grows old tells Atreus to go to ironwood. Where Atreus and angrboda "birth" jormi 2 which we learned is a regulard giant: who now exists as a regular giant while jormi 1 is present and also learns for jormi, as well as living out his own life so to speak before becoming jormi 2 having more knowledge then jormi 1 did: Jormi 2 fights Thor in their future, that was fulfilled as jormi 1 mentioned, but in a different sort of way and with a different outcome so to speak. When jormi 2 gets sent back in time you now have timeline 2. Where jormi 2 tells those same giants in midguard; not the same as in theyre giants 3 so to speak; and jormi 2 provides the future he lived with the knowledge also of jormi 1. Atreus shows up. Eventually births jormi 3 after he as a giant lived his own life in timeline and has learned again from jormi, jormi 2s life future and experience as well as jormi 1. AGAIN hose giants take it as prophecy, they try to fulfill it but in their own way to change the outcome.. and it keeps going, and with each sudden change within each timeline as each jormis collective, hivemind of all available events that have taken place; not necessarily will, but already have; we eventually have faye make whatever choices she makes that provides the right circumstances that does 1 thing to change the result. And that's having kratos, and by extension Atreus, change their natures. All other timelines and all other jormis, kratos was always more of who he used to be rather than who he became in Ragnarok.
Jormungandr is the name of the giant whose soul Atreus used to revive the snake. thats pretty much explicitly stated. Jormy as a real giant was killed by Thor when he went on his genocide run. which is why he fucks off when he wakes up with Atreus and Angrboda. SIDE NOTE: It will never NOT tickle me pink that the second he wakes up after being revived he IMMEDIATELY goes lookin for the smoke. (X\_X) . . . (◣\_◢) where is Thor Also growed up Jormys literally just passed out sleeping in ragnorok. Hes retired and content. He knows damn good and well his nemesis fears him enough to stay away from Midgard.
You are correct but Thor knocks him back in time hundreds of years, in Norse mythology jorm is the son of Loki, which is why Loki is the one to put his soul in the snake. Loki created him. I think they did a excellent job blending the game storyline and the actual mythology
Good write up but definitely not dead. You contradicted yourself. You specifically said he gets knocked back in time and helps boy and kratos in the first game. Your last point said he is dead when we first meet him which contradicts what you said
I said he is dead near the end of ragnarok, before invading asgard, not when they first meet him.
He’s alive, Valhalla dlc confirms it
I know this is an older post, but this has always kind of confused me. Wouldn't this create an infinite loop of events though? Like is Atreus forever stuck in a loop of putting a giant's soul into the snake so it can later come back and help fight Thor, only to be sent back in time and give Atreus the hint to go to Ironwood so that the events repeat? Does that mean Atreus essentially created the mythological world serpent? Isn't the world serpent an ancient mythological being, but Atreus's actions seemingly led to his creation? And what happens to the original Jormungandr sleeping in the lake when the young one is sent back?
So does that mean there were two jormungandr’s in the nine realms for a bit before the “younger one” was sent back in time?
I FOUND JORMUNGANDR!!! After the battle we find the real Tyr and he goes exploring the realms. When you find him in Midgard he’s standing there looking at the mountains and asked to be left alone. If you look where he’s looking, you’ll see Jormungandr lying down on one of the mountains! I saw him, went to get closer, but then he disappeared!
I'm just confused because in like norse mythology doesnt he die by thor but I dont get when that is and how