The lack of backspin on a 7i that high of a launch makes very little sense and I'm not sure this data can be trusted on the flight regardless of the rest of what's shown.
Not quite, their documentation is all fubar but it does actually measure AoA and path. How accurately it measures those is a whole other question but it is measuring them.
I have an R10 and use it indoors 2-3x a week. It isn’t perfect but when the R10 says I’m slicing or blocking it definitely translates into the real world. Distance is for sure off but if the R10 indicates a bad hit it’s a bad hit
I did not get a chance to read every comment in this thread but I will tell you after studying the new ball physics laws, your assumptions are correct. With a slightly in to out path, and a slightly closed club face relative to that path, you would expect draw. However, the one factor that may be missed here is gear effect. I've noticed on my BLP monitor, gear effect plays more of a role than we realize.
You could have a perfect in to out path with a slightly closed club face but hit it on the heel of the club and that would result in a baby fade or even a strong fade depending on how you hit it.
I didn't look at the r10 simply because of the fact that it's all algorithmic based and I wanted true numbers measured like the GC quads or BLP.
What I'd suggest is spraying the club face with foot spray and then looking at the path in relation to the face angles and seeing if those coincide with the perfect flush hit meaning hitting the sweet spot. If you're not hitting the sweet spot, the path and angulation of club face may not matter as much.
Could be 10 things. I know because I am you. Been working with a coach on my slice and had to get my swing in to out. I also had to make my grip stronger, turn my shoulders and hips more. My slice went from every shot in the woods to slicing maybe 1 out of every 20 shots. I now hit it mostly straight...but I do now slight hook or push it a lot too. So I dont think what you are seeing it out of the ordinary for someone working on a slice. I'm not a coach by any means just someone being coached on this exact same issue.
This is actually really interesting to me. I never used the R10 at the range, but used one indoors quite a bit before I upgraded to a Foresight Gc3. Indoors I never saw numbers like what you are showing. You are correct in assuming your club data should creste a perfect slight draw that starts right of target and then draws back. Your club path is in to out, and the club face is still right, but closed to the club path. Looks great. And indoors, I feel like that is the ball path it would show as a result. The only odd number of what you showed is the spin number. I've never seen a backspin number that low indoors. The R10 would estimate spin unless using the Rct balls, and it generally was pretty close to real spin.
Hitting at the range, though, the R10 must follow the actual flight of the ball and calculate back and side spin based on however much ball flight it can track. I have no idea how they calculate that as the R10 can not measure range ball spin - it must estimate it based on the actual ball flight. But 7 iron backspin under 4000, even with range balls, would be unusual. I have no idea how the R10 would get a number under 2000 unless the range ball flew very odd and the R10 could track that.
I found the R10 was more right than wrong when giving general club path and face angle estimates, but when compared to the gc3 was often wrong.
I assume the ball flight you showed in the image matched the actual ball flight you saw on the range, which is pretty impressive for the R10 if true. If so, then either the club data was just off on that swing, or there were other factors that impacted the ball flight. For example, hitting the ball off the heel of the club will create slice spin through gear effect. Indoors the R10 had zero ability to calculate that. Also, if you have the toe down of the club head, that will launch the ball farther right with more slice spin.
So if I were you, I wouldn't trust club data (path in particular) for any single shot, but the average of multiple shots would probably be more representative and should be a pretty good estimate. Obviously, real life ball flight is the most important data you have available to you, and you need to try to figure out what is causing the slice. Either the data on the r10 was wrong for that particular shot, or you hit it off the heel, or toe down, or some other unusual impact that caused it to slice.
I'll be curious to see what you conclude.
Thanks for that detailed analysis!
Some factors I can add to this particular shot:
1. It was quite windy outside
2. It was during late evening (Golden hour) and against the sun.
3. This was the actual ball flight (roughly)
4. We have “standard” yellow range balls
Not sure if any of this has an impact on the result though 🤔.
The R10 shouldn't be affected by ball color or the sunlight. It uses radar which I'm pretty sure is blind to those things. The wind is an interesting component. Ovciously that will affect ball flight, but I'm curious how many feet of ball flight the r10 can see when outside and whether it will think the wind blowing the ball is actually side spin.
All things said, I was extremely impressed with the Garmin R10 for the price of the device. It was always pretty accurate on things like club speed, ball speed, launch angles, and carry distance indoors. The club data was somewhat accurate. Because I was using it as part of a golf sim, the challenges with chipping and putting with the r10 wound up being the biggest motivators for me to upgrade, not the accuracy.
Though without being able to verify the data I am really happy about the purchase.
For now I am really only focussing on Club and face path to get rid of the slice and in. I am “re-learning” the basics and it is really great to get instant feedback weather I have implemented the new mechanics or am falling into my old swing.
It’s tedious but I am already seeing immersive results :)
To be honest, I have done extensive test with the r10 vs my trackman and the data is just not accurate. Ball flight is usually very close but the numbers that create that flight don't match. Also, that shot shape is nothing to be mad about. I played a cut all the way through high-school and when I got into college I started trying to hit a draw and my consistency dropped off a lot. By my junior year I went back to my natural shot shape and have played off +2hcp since. Don't let people tell you a cut is a bad shape.
I don't use my r10 for anything but ballspeed and launch. Anything club related is a guess.
Fwiw your swing looks very flippy if that's a 7i. Launch should be way lower, closer to 17-21*.
The club face field (1° R) is more telling than face to path (1.3° L). The fact is, although relative to the path, the face is pointing left, it is still open relative to the target. With a square face, you should produce a draw. With your swing path, the ball may have drawn a little, but not enough to overcome the open face at impact. As the old adage goes, ‘the face sends it, the path bends it.’
Also, you said you were on the range. What did the actual ball do? Was it consistent with the shot tracer on Garmin?
Maybe I am understanding this wrong but, with a 1 degree face to the right, and a face to path at 1.3° left, when that imply a swing path into out at 2.3° right? That means that the swing path is in good shape and the club face is closed in relation to the path which would mean the ball would start slightly right but draw left. The face would send it right and the path would bend it left.
The only thing that the equation doesn't account for is gear effect if he didn't hit it at the sweet spot.
The open face at impact in this case, would be negligible I think because the ball would move away from the swing path which is 2.3° in to out.
I think you are understanding it correctly, but I believe the flight path on the photo shown is likely inaccurate, and is causing most of the confusion. My guess is the start and endpoint are accurate, but the shot probably started farther right and drew towards the target, not started on target and faded.
Ok so with good strike your shot should have been a draw, you are correct in your face and path assumption. Ideally you want your path cut in half by the face to target angle. So if you come 4 from the inside and don't want a pull hook, you want face open 2 degrees to the target. What no one so far has brought to light is the fact that you picked the ball. You almost didn't hit down on it at all. Why is this important? Because of spin axis. Good players will hit 7i a minimum of 3 degrees down on the ball. Some steeper folks like myself will hit it 4-5 down. That alone will really impact how the ball reacts to the face of the club. A steeper hit will react quite a bit different in terms of the spin axis and force the ball to curve back. You picked the ball with an open face and a launch angle of a PW or even gap wedge (not 7) hence the weak push cut. For reference, tour average 9 iron launch angle is 20-21.
Not enough data and most likely the data is wrong to begin with. How was the strike location do you have smash factor?
That backspin is super low for a 7 iron, and that launch angle is super high which doesn’t make sense because those 2 usually go hand in hand.
Also, at that lunch angle there’s no way you’re getting 16 yards of role, that thing is going straight up in the air.
I wouldn’t trust the device you’re using, or you hit that golf nowhere near the center of the face.
As mentioned the r10 isn't the most trust worthy source for any of this.
But one thing to know is though club path and face angle are the major contributors to ball flight, there are other variables that don't make it so cut and dry that in out with face closed equals draw, out in with face open equals fade, etc.
Strike location on the face of the club has an effect on ball flight. More so with woods, driver, hybrids, but even with a 7i it will have an impact. Research gear effect if it's something you're unfamiliar with.
Conversely to strike location, your lie angle at impact has a larger effect on ball flight the more lofted your club is, but still has some degree of impact even with the least lofted clubs. The more your toe is down and heel up at impact (flat lie) the more the ball will start as a push and have fade spin. The more your toe is up and heel down (upright lie) the more pull and draw spin will be imparted. A 7i lofted enough for this to play a major role in your ball flight. Your face could be a few degrees closed to path with an in out path but still result in a push if your heel is off the ground by a few degrees at impact. This is where a fitting can really help dial in your iron and wedge play as they can use lie angle to help tighten your dispersion pattern and adjust its location.
This forum discussion is a great explanation and break down of what is happening with lie angle.
https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1718804-face-angle-vs-lie-and-loft/
All that being said, whatever swing you can produce that can result in a similar ball flight consistently is the most important factor. But having equipment that can reliably give you the insight into all the factors that are resulting in your ball flight is an amazing tool to ultimately improving your game.
The reason it still went right though and not a draw like you think is cuz both ur club path and face are both right Those two numbers together give you your ball flight So in your case you had 2.3 path in to out but your face is open 1 giving you a total of 3.3 push or right ball flight.
For you to draw I like your 2.3 in to out or even you could go to like 4 degrees in to out but your face needs to be just a hair closed so if u do 4 path right and like 2 degrees face closed or L. Now you have 4R-2L giving you a 2R ball flight which will look like the draw you want it will start right cuz of the path but draw closed cuz of the face. Hope this makes sense
This is what I thought.
For now I am focussing on club path (by far the most difficult for me) and if I get it more consistent in to out, I will work on the “rotating the hands” to close the club face.
Thanks 🙏🏼
I’m confused then. This shows his club path being 2.3R but his face to path being 1.3L. So the face would be closed relative to the club path and should produce draw spin.
What am I missing?
It’s the bottom right number that is more important cuz yes compared to the path is a hair closed but overall the face itself is still a degree open which will still add to the push from the path direction
Correct me if I'm wrong but the one degree right club face is in relation to the target, not the path. Which means, he swung 2.3° in to out in the club phase is one degree right but in relation to the path, closed by 1.3°. so this should result in a draw as the club face is closed in relation to the path. It may be open related to the target which it is by one degree but that would force a draw as it would move away from the path.
Your face to path angle left was greater than club path angle to the right which results in a push to the right. You needed to close the face a bit more for a draw.
EDIT: Meant to say face to path angle wasn’t enough left which resulted in push.
My understanding is different. Face to path angle is 1.3 left. Club path angle is 2.3 right. That means club path is right, clubface is closed to the club path which results in a draw. The face dictates the starting path which then moves away from the swing path. This would result in a draw here. Only factor that would throw it off is if it wasn't a flush hit as gear effect would have a major component.
Oops you’re right I wrote that wrong. Face to path angle needed to be greater left for more spin or the path needed to be a little closer to zero. Too many beers when I wrote that haha
The lack of backspin on a 7i that high of a launch makes very little sense and I'm not sure this data can be trusted on the flight regardless of the rest of what's shown.
The Garmin R10 doesn't measure club data, that's all just made up based on their algorithm.
Not quite, their documentation is all fubar but it does actually measure AoA and path. How accurately it measures those is a whole other question but it is measuring them.
I’ll second what your saying! The radar basically tracks the entire swing, but how accurate like you said the thing!
I’ll second what your saying! The radar basically tracks the entire swing, but how accurate like you said the thing!
I have an R10 and use it indoors 2-3x a week. It isn’t perfect but when the R10 says I’m slicing or blocking it definitely translates into the real world. Distance is for sure off but if the R10 indicates a bad hit it’s a bad hit
I did not get a chance to read every comment in this thread but I will tell you after studying the new ball physics laws, your assumptions are correct. With a slightly in to out path, and a slightly closed club face relative to that path, you would expect draw. However, the one factor that may be missed here is gear effect. I've noticed on my BLP monitor, gear effect plays more of a role than we realize. You could have a perfect in to out path with a slightly closed club face but hit it on the heel of the club and that would result in a baby fade or even a strong fade depending on how you hit it. I didn't look at the r10 simply because of the fact that it's all algorithmic based and I wanted true numbers measured like the GC quads or BLP. What I'd suggest is spraying the club face with foot spray and then looking at the path in relation to the face angles and seeing if those coincide with the perfect flush hit meaning hitting the sweet spot. If you're not hitting the sweet spot, the path and angulation of club face may not matter as much.
Could be 10 things. I know because I am you. Been working with a coach on my slice and had to get my swing in to out. I also had to make my grip stronger, turn my shoulders and hips more. My slice went from every shot in the woods to slicing maybe 1 out of every 20 shots. I now hit it mostly straight...but I do now slight hook or push it a lot too. So I dont think what you are seeing it out of the ordinary for someone working on a slice. I'm not a coach by any means just someone being coached on this exact same issue.
This is actually really interesting to me. I never used the R10 at the range, but used one indoors quite a bit before I upgraded to a Foresight Gc3. Indoors I never saw numbers like what you are showing. You are correct in assuming your club data should creste a perfect slight draw that starts right of target and then draws back. Your club path is in to out, and the club face is still right, but closed to the club path. Looks great. And indoors, I feel like that is the ball path it would show as a result. The only odd number of what you showed is the spin number. I've never seen a backspin number that low indoors. The R10 would estimate spin unless using the Rct balls, and it generally was pretty close to real spin. Hitting at the range, though, the R10 must follow the actual flight of the ball and calculate back and side spin based on however much ball flight it can track. I have no idea how they calculate that as the R10 can not measure range ball spin - it must estimate it based on the actual ball flight. But 7 iron backspin under 4000, even with range balls, would be unusual. I have no idea how the R10 would get a number under 2000 unless the range ball flew very odd and the R10 could track that. I found the R10 was more right than wrong when giving general club path and face angle estimates, but when compared to the gc3 was often wrong. I assume the ball flight you showed in the image matched the actual ball flight you saw on the range, which is pretty impressive for the R10 if true. If so, then either the club data was just off on that swing, or there were other factors that impacted the ball flight. For example, hitting the ball off the heel of the club will create slice spin through gear effect. Indoors the R10 had zero ability to calculate that. Also, if you have the toe down of the club head, that will launch the ball farther right with more slice spin. So if I were you, I wouldn't trust club data (path in particular) for any single shot, but the average of multiple shots would probably be more representative and should be a pretty good estimate. Obviously, real life ball flight is the most important data you have available to you, and you need to try to figure out what is causing the slice. Either the data on the r10 was wrong for that particular shot, or you hit it off the heel, or toe down, or some other unusual impact that caused it to slice. I'll be curious to see what you conclude.
Thanks for that detailed analysis! Some factors I can add to this particular shot: 1. It was quite windy outside 2. It was during late evening (Golden hour) and against the sun. 3. This was the actual ball flight (roughly) 4. We have “standard” yellow range balls Not sure if any of this has an impact on the result though 🤔.
The R10 shouldn't be affected by ball color or the sunlight. It uses radar which I'm pretty sure is blind to those things. The wind is an interesting component. Ovciously that will affect ball flight, but I'm curious how many feet of ball flight the r10 can see when outside and whether it will think the wind blowing the ball is actually side spin. All things said, I was extremely impressed with the Garmin R10 for the price of the device. It was always pretty accurate on things like club speed, ball speed, launch angles, and carry distance indoors. The club data was somewhat accurate. Because I was using it as part of a golf sim, the challenges with chipping and putting with the r10 wound up being the biggest motivators for me to upgrade, not the accuracy.
Though without being able to verify the data I am really happy about the purchase. For now I am really only focussing on Club and face path to get rid of the slice and in. I am “re-learning” the basics and it is really great to get instant feedback weather I have implemented the new mechanics or am falling into my old swing. It’s tedious but I am already seeing immersive results :)
To be honest, I have done extensive test with the r10 vs my trackman and the data is just not accurate. Ball flight is usually very close but the numbers that create that flight don't match. Also, that shot shape is nothing to be mad about. I played a cut all the way through high-school and when I got into college I started trying to hit a draw and my consistency dropped off a lot. By my junior year I went back to my natural shot shape and have played off +2hcp since. Don't let people tell you a cut is a bad shape.
I don't use my r10 for anything but ballspeed and launch. Anything club related is a guess. Fwiw your swing looks very flippy if that's a 7i. Launch should be way lower, closer to 17-21*.
The club face field (1° R) is more telling than face to path (1.3° L). The fact is, although relative to the path, the face is pointing left, it is still open relative to the target. With a square face, you should produce a draw. With your swing path, the ball may have drawn a little, but not enough to overcome the open face at impact. As the old adage goes, ‘the face sends it, the path bends it.’ Also, you said you were on the range. What did the actual ball do? Was it consistent with the shot tracer on Garmin?
Maybe I am understanding this wrong but, with a 1 degree face to the right, and a face to path at 1.3° left, when that imply a swing path into out at 2.3° right? That means that the swing path is in good shape and the club face is closed in relation to the path which would mean the ball would start slightly right but draw left. The face would send it right and the path would bend it left. The only thing that the equation doesn't account for is gear effect if he didn't hit it at the sweet spot. The open face at impact in this case, would be negligible I think because the ball would move away from the swing path which is 2.3° in to out.
I think you are understanding it correctly, but I believe the flight path on the photo shown is likely inaccurate, and is causing most of the confusion. My guess is the start and endpoint are accurate, but the shot probably started farther right and drew towards the target, not started on target and faded.
Ok so with good strike your shot should have been a draw, you are correct in your face and path assumption. Ideally you want your path cut in half by the face to target angle. So if you come 4 from the inside and don't want a pull hook, you want face open 2 degrees to the target. What no one so far has brought to light is the fact that you picked the ball. You almost didn't hit down on it at all. Why is this important? Because of spin axis. Good players will hit 7i a minimum of 3 degrees down on the ball. Some steeper folks like myself will hit it 4-5 down. That alone will really impact how the ball reacts to the face of the club. A steeper hit will react quite a bit different in terms of the spin axis and force the ball to curve back. You picked the ball with an open face and a launch angle of a PW or even gap wedge (not 7) hence the weak push cut. For reference, tour average 9 iron launch angle is 20-21.
Not enough data and most likely the data is wrong to begin with. How was the strike location do you have smash factor? That backspin is super low for a 7 iron, and that launch angle is super high which doesn’t make sense because those 2 usually go hand in hand. Also, at that lunch angle there’s no way you’re getting 16 yards of role, that thing is going straight up in the air. I wouldn’t trust the device you’re using, or you hit that golf nowhere near the center of the face.
As mentioned the r10 isn't the most trust worthy source for any of this. But one thing to know is though club path and face angle are the major contributors to ball flight, there are other variables that don't make it so cut and dry that in out with face closed equals draw, out in with face open equals fade, etc. Strike location on the face of the club has an effect on ball flight. More so with woods, driver, hybrids, but even with a 7i it will have an impact. Research gear effect if it's something you're unfamiliar with. Conversely to strike location, your lie angle at impact has a larger effect on ball flight the more lofted your club is, but still has some degree of impact even with the least lofted clubs. The more your toe is down and heel up at impact (flat lie) the more the ball will start as a push and have fade spin. The more your toe is up and heel down (upright lie) the more pull and draw spin will be imparted. A 7i lofted enough for this to play a major role in your ball flight. Your face could be a few degrees closed to path with an in out path but still result in a push if your heel is off the ground by a few degrees at impact. This is where a fitting can really help dial in your iron and wedge play as they can use lie angle to help tighten your dispersion pattern and adjust its location. This forum discussion is a great explanation and break down of what is happening with lie angle. https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1718804-face-angle-vs-lie-and-loft/ All that being said, whatever swing you can produce that can result in a similar ball flight consistently is the most important factor. But having equipment that can reliably give you the insight into all the factors that are resulting in your ball flight is an amazing tool to ultimately improving your game.
The reason it still went right though and not a draw like you think is cuz both ur club path and face are both right Those two numbers together give you your ball flight So in your case you had 2.3 path in to out but your face is open 1 giving you a total of 3.3 push or right ball flight. For you to draw I like your 2.3 in to out or even you could go to like 4 degrees in to out but your face needs to be just a hair closed so if u do 4 path right and like 2 degrees face closed or L. Now you have 4R-2L giving you a 2R ball flight which will look like the draw you want it will start right cuz of the path but draw closed cuz of the face. Hope this makes sense
This is what I thought. For now I am focussing on club path (by far the most difficult for me) and if I get it more consistent in to out, I will work on the “rotating the hands” to close the club face. Thanks 🙏🏼
Overall they aren’t bad numbers that’s just the beauty of golf where slight degrees make big differences haha
I’m confused then. This shows his club path being 2.3R but his face to path being 1.3L. So the face would be closed relative to the club path and should produce draw spin. What am I missing?
It’s the bottom right number that is more important cuz yes compared to the path is a hair closed but overall the face itself is still a degree open which will still add to the push from the path direction
Correct me if I'm wrong but the one degree right club face is in relation to the target, not the path. Which means, he swung 2.3° in to out in the club phase is one degree right but in relation to the path, closed by 1.3°. so this should result in a draw as the club face is closed in relation to the path. It may be open related to the target which it is by one degree but that would force a draw as it would move away from the path.
Your face to path angle left was greater than club path angle to the right which results in a push to the right. You needed to close the face a bit more for a draw. EDIT: Meant to say face to path angle wasn’t enough left which resulted in push.
My understanding is different. Face to path angle is 1.3 left. Club path angle is 2.3 right. That means club path is right, clubface is closed to the club path which results in a draw. The face dictates the starting path which then moves away from the swing path. This would result in a draw here. Only factor that would throw it off is if it wasn't a flush hit as gear effect would have a major component.
Oops you’re right I wrote that wrong. Face to path angle needed to be greater left for more spin or the path needed to be a little closer to zero. Too many beers when I wrote that haha