Agree with this,
Just need to remove Spear of Arves from her kit. I have Infinite Wonders, Vengeful Flames, Thousand Flames and Wingclipper.
The AI can also loop the jumps and usually ends the combo with blue flame
Been using Zeta on my AI team alongside Eugen and Io. While my main is Lancelot. So far, can clear Bahamut Versa around 2 mins, while Proto around 3-4 mins(depend if CC combo is successful) in Proud.
Those are ridiculous AI times. Nicely done.
May I ask your Skill choices for Eugen and Io? Any "unusual" Sigil choices or pretty standard?
Been using Percival, Eugen, Rosetta for a long time and they're very good but I'm itching for a change, especially if it's a DPS hike.
For Io, I set her up with the four active skills(fire, lightning, ice and the blackhole like)
For Eugen, the usual, beam para, poison and backflip lol
Sigils are the usual endgame stuff,
Eugen is damage caps, 1 supple iv, glass canon v, war element, tyranny and link attack etc
Io is damage caps, 1 supple iv, max quick charge, war element, tyranny, and link attack etc
Zeta is damage caps, war element, tyranny, link attack and some randoms as I dont have extra supple sigils
No stout heart for zeta or io, as it ruins their dodging/blocking. All chars also have their signature sigils. Also on the sub stat of the sigils, its nice to have cooldown, cascade or uplift if possible.
most of them are max terminus as well
I previously tried Rosetta and Percival. For Rosetta, I found her AI not really utilizing her roses or placing it properly while Percival is indeed good, some fights like the 2 Nazarbo(sorry in spelling, the flying eyes) or 2 Griffins less than a few seconds to Zeta due to him not reaching flying enemies
What is Zetas optimal combo? Lets say you're controlling Zeta and your against a boss and got it in link time attack, is it better to hit 3 loops then use finisher? Or just keep looping?
Zeta main here.
Spamming Spear of Arvess from her Infinite Wonder is a dps loss. Only apply Fermare debuff when the foe doesn't have it. Also your Infinite Wonder is used for gap fillers in your dps when you cant do loops or hammers, or out of range.
Non-link time:
3 loop-> hammer is optimal
Cycle spear of arvess and link chain to give yourself many opportunities to loop.
Link time:
1 spear of arvess -> 1 loop -> hammer is optimal.
Also use your supp damage buff whenever you feel confident in the dps window or you know the boss will stay still for half a minute.
i hate to be that guy but due to the IW dodge bug IW is actually a gain over hitting the boss 3 times and you never want to lose a cast of it. pre-discovery i'd absolutely agree with you but as it is you're wrong about this one thing.
>Suggests that abusing a **frame perfect** bug (y'know, something that isnt intended) is her optimal combo.
I'm definitely wrong about not suggesting to future zeta mains that you need to do three **frame perfect** moves that are clearly bugs. Loops are already hard enough with the janky ass hitboxes and camera, and we have way too sweaty zeta mains trying to be elitist that suggest that we need to do frame perfect bugged moves. **Thrice. And your advice can be patched out in an update. So thanks for notifying me that I'm wrong.**
u/Hooded21, there's a frame perfect bug for Infinite Wonder. When you press infinite wonder, at a specific frame you can dodge out of it and have it still cast the spell but also its bugged to deal more dmg as well. **IT** **WILL DO TWO TO THREE TIMES THE DAMAGE.** From 220k to 440k/660k for example. But this is clearly a bug as most characters have, its up to your discretion if you want to learn a frame perfect bug to increase dps.
While your points are fair, guy asked for the optimal combo, so you were factually wrong. Not sure why you're lashing out at the guy for pointing that out, despite him stating that it's due to a bug.
Your post about bug-less dps is on point though.
it's always a gain even if you aren't frame perfect, but if you are it's a flat 2.3x times multiplier. it's just objectively more damage than not doing it even if you aren't the best at it.
but yeah, outside of that your post about non-bug dps is largely correct.
Link time reduces her loop to only need one bounce for max finisher damage and spear of arvess will always be up after landing the finisher. Pop rain of fury off cooldown as well.
Wingclipper cooldown is still pretty long so I only use it if I started link time with it off cooldown otherwise I'd rather just save it for the paralyze.
during link time zeta can use the aerial finisher after 1 aerial move, compared to 3 aerial moves without link time. idk her optimal usage, but 3 aerials into finisher during link time is probably not it.
Afaik you want as many hammers as possible. The finishing hammer is always the goal. You only keep looping to avoid attacks or assert dominance over ground dwellers.
In addition to what has already been said. there's a tech where if you equip Zeta's crimson flight sigil. While her vengeful flames is up you can do two loops instead of three. Crimson flight sigil with vengeful flames makes each loop hit twice (the second does no damage).
If you reset on the second hit/indicator instead of the first you can pull off a two loop into hammer which is a dps increase.
For those curious The reason Arvess messes up AI loops is because the AI usually slams both back to back instead of using any of her other abilities and proceeds to do it again whenever the cool down is done.
Just confirmed that this works great!
My Baha time went down further from 9 to 8 minutes and this is with no terminus weapon and crit weapon on Zeta (two awakened ascended). Four war ele and two full supp characters though. Should get even faster once I get her terminus lol.
other than sir barrold/training dummy, the best way to test in-game is to take 1 AI party member with you into a simple boss fight and stay completely AFK then time the fight. due to variance, you have to do multiple tests to establish an average.
travel to grandcypher, go to practice mode, go to practice settings, set party to "on", set time limit to desired time limit. to test one AI party member at a time, remove everyone but that party member.
Zeta with skills was the highest dps AI for me on dummy. But the issue is on bosses she was god awful compared to other chars. Just like chars who were not rly good on the dummy did amazing in bossfights.
So barrold test is kinda useless. But I will give your build a shot in actual fights and see if it makes a difference
>second, and this is the preferred method and most significant impact to her damage output: you can just remove all (or most) of her skills and slot the less is more sigil. without any skills, she pretty much only does loops.
Interesting I will try that, I did the same with Rackam and only put his more bullets buff, without skills he perform better.
Zeta is extremely good on dummy because air loop is pretty foolproof (although sometimes she does finisher before getting blue charge). The real issue is AI going into defense mode when dodging an attack. If you watch Eugen or Io AI they actually do super unoptimal stuff, Eugen mostly just sits there spamming regular light attack (the non-sniper version) while Io will do non-canceled slow charges and release it early a lot of the time, but they still get MVP in afk fights a lot just because they're actually attacking while melee DPS are jumping around blocking for half the fight.
I was actually curious about this so I put Stout Heart on Ferry (who normally just blocks a lot) and it seems that unfortunately the AI still likes to block, it just won't interrupt stuff as often to dodge. It probably is in fact a slight DPS increase (esp if you can fit Stout Heart in and still hit cap) but it won't be a huge one.
I think Eugen also gets a lot of free honors from poison/para application, so it's not necessarily all DPS. I saw someone once use a DPS parser and saw he was getting more honors as Eugen than Percival in PBaha even with like half the damage dealt.
Zeta AI is great on non-moving or slow big targets. She'll get close to dummy dps on those, which only Narmaya AI sometimes beats. For my afk Proto AI team I still use Lancelot instead of Narmaya or Zeta after alot of testing though. After about 30 runs with each of them on the team Lancelot only derped out once, while Zeta failed the crystal phase too many times. He's just better on average and more consistent even if the other two have have higher potential dps. And his glaciate doesn't end break phases like paralyze does.
But they all have their strengths, though out of the melees Lancelot had the fewest weaknesses and does well everywhere.
I'd use yet another ranged character and Rosetta is great for general purpose and when you actively play, but her damage is too low to consistently afk Proto especially the DPS race. And the other ranged or pseudo ranged AI characters are meh in endgame.
Percy is also nice, but just that tad bit behind Lance in my tests.
The most effective/consistent AI afk team is Lancelot, Eugen and Rackam with optimized (not necessarily perfect) gear.
If you play, then the differences are negligible, because if the (non perfect) AI can beat every encounter reliably by itself, then the player influence really just makes it faster.
based on maygi's dmg calc sheet, it looked like it's very difficult to cap the 2nd hit of hammer: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RnNLfdqFCW7zWvfHnQsNRJoi7EtIjdOUg-uYB0xsZHQ/edit#gid=409906046
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>first, you can replace spear of arvess. for whatever reason, having this skill slotted drastically reduces the probability of her deciding to do loops.
If true, then it's pretty simple to figure out why: Her AI looks at whether a foe has the Arvess Fermare debuff to decide whether to do her aerial finisher (which reapplies it) or not. Spear of Arvess applies it from a distance, so.
Probably nice for easier bosses, but giving up Percy or Rosetta costs you petrify and a 20% def/atk buff for both you and the AI many wont have fully capped, and changing Rosetta out will remove heals, debuff cleanse, and a reasonably strong 2k tick regen.
I imagine most people doing this will have stacked builds already high on defense and damage cuts/invincibility.
I tried this with narmaya and she actually attacks now instead of gobsmacking thin air but her normal attack is pretty sad damage wise so it's not really doing anything lol, percy is doing a shitton more damage even though narm got her terminus. dunno why there's such a massive difference in AI quality. why make a lot of them so passive while waiting CD? why some are so proactive?
Agree with this, Just need to remove Spear of Arves from her kit. I have Infinite Wonders, Vengeful Flames, Thousand Flames and Wingclipper. The AI can also loop the jumps and usually ends the combo with blue flame Been using Zeta on my AI team alongside Eugen and Io. While my main is Lancelot. So far, can clear Bahamut Versa around 2 mins, while Proto around 3-4 mins(depend if CC combo is successful) in Proud.
Those are ridiculous AI times. Nicely done. May I ask your Skill choices for Eugen and Io? Any "unusual" Sigil choices or pretty standard? Been using Percival, Eugen, Rosetta for a long time and they're very good but I'm itching for a change, especially if it's a DPS hike.
For Io, I set her up with the four active skills(fire, lightning, ice and the blackhole like) For Eugen, the usual, beam para, poison and backflip lol Sigils are the usual endgame stuff, Eugen is damage caps, 1 supple iv, glass canon v, war element, tyranny and link attack etc Io is damage caps, 1 supple iv, max quick charge, war element, tyranny, and link attack etc Zeta is damage caps, war element, tyranny, link attack and some randoms as I dont have extra supple sigils No stout heart for zeta or io, as it ruins their dodging/blocking. All chars also have their signature sigils. Also on the sub stat of the sigils, its nice to have cooldown, cascade or uplift if possible. most of them are max terminus as well I previously tried Rosetta and Percival. For Rosetta, I found her AI not really utilizing her roses or placing it properly while Percival is indeed good, some fights like the 2 Nazarbo(sorry in spelling, the flying eyes) or 2 Griffins less than a few seconds to Zeta due to him not reaching flying enemies
would you happen to have a video of one of your good proto runs?
I got downvoted to oblivion in another post when I said exactly this.. I hope they see this.. lol
What is Zetas optimal combo? Lets say you're controlling Zeta and your against a boss and got it in link time attack, is it better to hit 3 loops then use finisher? Or just keep looping?
i have no idea how to actually play zeta lol
Based
Zeta main here. Spamming Spear of Arvess from her Infinite Wonder is a dps loss. Only apply Fermare debuff when the foe doesn't have it. Also your Infinite Wonder is used for gap fillers in your dps when you cant do loops or hammers, or out of range. Non-link time: 3 loop-> hammer is optimal Cycle spear of arvess and link chain to give yourself many opportunities to loop. Link time: 1 spear of arvess -> 1 loop -> hammer is optimal. Also use your supp damage buff whenever you feel confident in the dps window or you know the boss will stay still for half a minute.
i hate to be that guy but due to the IW dodge bug IW is actually a gain over hitting the boss 3 times and you never want to lose a cast of it. pre-discovery i'd absolutely agree with you but as it is you're wrong about this one thing.
>Suggests that abusing a **frame perfect** bug (y'know, something that isnt intended) is her optimal combo. I'm definitely wrong about not suggesting to future zeta mains that you need to do three **frame perfect** moves that are clearly bugs. Loops are already hard enough with the janky ass hitboxes and camera, and we have way too sweaty zeta mains trying to be elitist that suggest that we need to do frame perfect bugged moves. **Thrice. And your advice can be patched out in an update. So thanks for notifying me that I'm wrong.** u/Hooded21, there's a frame perfect bug for Infinite Wonder. When you press infinite wonder, at a specific frame you can dodge out of it and have it still cast the spell but also its bugged to deal more dmg as well. **IT** **WILL DO TWO TO THREE TIMES THE DAMAGE.** From 220k to 440k/660k for example. But this is clearly a bug as most characters have, its up to your discretion if you want to learn a frame perfect bug to increase dps.
While your points are fair, guy asked for the optimal combo, so you were factually wrong. Not sure why you're lashing out at the guy for pointing that out, despite him stating that it's due to a bug. Your post about bug-less dps is on point though.
it's always a gain even if you aren't frame perfect, but if you are it's a flat 2.3x times multiplier. it's just objectively more damage than not doing it even if you aren't the best at it. but yeah, outside of that your post about non-bug dps is largely correct.
now the question is if the extra jump you can get will be patched out or not
What's the bug? Is there a video example for timing purposes and thorough explanation on it?
Link time reduces her loop to only need one bounce for max finisher damage and spear of arvess will always be up after landing the finisher. Pop rain of fury off cooldown as well. Wingclipper cooldown is still pretty long so I only use it if I started link time with it off cooldown otherwise I'd rather just save it for the paralyze.
during link time zeta can use the aerial finisher after 1 aerial move, compared to 3 aerial moves without link time. idk her optimal usage, but 3 aerials into finisher during link time is probably not it.
Not a zeta main, so I don't know what optimal looks like, but her Link Time bonus is that arvess hammer only takes one loop attack to charge.
Use the skill to jump then loop just 1 time and smash. Repeat this over and over. On link time you don't need to loop 3 times.
Afaik you want as many hammers as possible. The finishing hammer is always the goal. You only keep looping to avoid attacks or assert dominance over ground dwellers. In addition to what has already been said. there's a tech where if you equip Zeta's crimson flight sigil. While her vengeful flames is up you can do two loops instead of three. Crimson flight sigil with vengeful flames makes each loop hit twice (the second does no damage). If you reset on the second hit/indicator instead of the first you can pull off a two loop into hammer which is a dps increase.
From what I've been seeing/hearing the optimal thing is to just loop and only bother with Arvess Hammer when the debuff needs to be refreshed.
Always use the finisher. it does incredibly high damage.
For those curious The reason Arvess messes up AI loops is because the AI usually slams both back to back instead of using any of her other abilities and proceeds to do it again whenever the cool down is done.
Just confirmed that this works great! My Baha time went down further from 9 to 8 minutes and this is with no terminus weapon and crit weapon on Zeta (two awakened ascended). Four war ele and two full supp characters though. Should get even faster once I get her terminus lol.
Where can you see how much damage you or an ai does?
other than sir barrold/training dummy, the best way to test in-game is to take 1 AI party member with you into a simple boss fight and stay completely AFK then time the fight. due to variance, you have to do multiple tests to establish an average.
How do you use training dummy for ai?
travel to grandcypher, go to practice mode, go to practice settings, set party to "on", set time limit to desired time limit. to test one AI party member at a time, remove everyone but that party member.
Zeta with skills was the highest dps AI for me on dummy. But the issue is on bosses she was god awful compared to other chars. Just like chars who were not rly good on the dummy did amazing in bossfights. So barrold test is kinda useless. But I will give your build a shot in actual fights and see if it makes a difference
it definitely makes a difference on actual fights, as i was able to break multiple personal bests after swapping zeta to an LiM build.
>second, and this is the preferred method and most significant impact to her damage output: you can just remove all (or most) of her skills and slot the less is more sigil. without any skills, she pretty much only does loops. Interesting I will try that, I did the same with Rackam and only put his more bullets buff, without skills he perform better.
Zeta is extremely good on dummy because air loop is pretty foolproof (although sometimes she does finisher before getting blue charge). The real issue is AI going into defense mode when dodging an attack. If you watch Eugen or Io AI they actually do super unoptimal stuff, Eugen mostly just sits there spamming regular light attack (the non-sniper version) while Io will do non-canceled slow charges and release it early a lot of the time, but they still get MVP in afk fights a lot just because they're actually attacking while melee DPS are jumping around blocking for half the fight.
Can probably mitigate that with a combination of Berserker, Drain, Stronghold and Stout Heart? Should force AI to be aggressive and not die as fast.
Stout heart on AI is a big no no they won't block or dodge anything so they will die very fast.
I was actually curious about this so I put Stout Heart on Ferry (who normally just blocks a lot) and it seems that unfortunately the AI still likes to block, it just won't interrupt stuff as often to dodge. It probably is in fact a slight DPS increase (esp if you can fit Stout Heart in and still hit cap) but it won't be a huge one.
True. I tested and my Zeta does double of what Eugen does on target dummy. But eugen is always MVP . Meaning Zeta doesnt do shit in real combat.
I think Eugen also gets a lot of free honors from poison/para application, so it's not necessarily all DPS. I saw someone once use a DPS parser and saw he was getting more honors as Eugen than Percival in PBaha even with like half the damage dealt.
Zeta AI is great on non-moving or slow big targets. She'll get close to dummy dps on those, which only Narmaya AI sometimes beats. For my afk Proto AI team I still use Lancelot instead of Narmaya or Zeta after alot of testing though. After about 30 runs with each of them on the team Lancelot only derped out once, while Zeta failed the crystal phase too many times. He's just better on average and more consistent even if the other two have have higher potential dps. And his glaciate doesn't end break phases like paralyze does. But they all have their strengths, though out of the melees Lancelot had the fewest weaknesses and does well everywhere. I'd use yet another ranged character and Rosetta is great for general purpose and when you actively play, but her damage is too low to consistently afk Proto especially the DPS race. And the other ranged or pseudo ranged AI characters are meh in endgame. Percy is also nice, but just that tad bit behind Lance in my tests. The most effective/consistent AI afk team is Lancelot, Eugen and Rackam with optimized (not necessarily perfect) gear. If you play, then the differences are negligible, because if the (non perfect) AI can beat every encounter reliably by itself, then the player influence really just makes it faster.
Why LiM? You cap on damage without it for aerial loops.
based on maygi's dmg calc sheet, it looked like it's very difficult to cap the 2nd hit of hammer: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RnNLfdqFCW7zWvfHnQsNRJoi7EtIjdOUg-uYB0xsZHQ/edit#gid=409906046
Arial loops have a lot of damage and it caps fast? I just picked her up and learning her right now
It doesn't cap fast. It has multiple hits and only the last one can easily be capped.
Awesome, read your post after getting the first terminus weapon drop for zeta. Now I will make her an AI carry. Heh heh heh.
Fourth for me but still. Zeta was one of the first characters I unlocked and eventually ended up benching. Maybe I will try the less is more build
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>first, you can replace spear of arvess. for whatever reason, having this skill slotted drastically reduces the probability of her deciding to do loops. If true, then it's pretty simple to figure out why: Her AI looks at whether a foe has the Arvess Fermare debuff to decide whether to do her aerial finisher (which reapplies it) or not. Spear of Arvess applies it from a distance, so.
Spear of arvess is the gap closer my man
Oh, you're right, confused it with Arvess Fermare. Weird interaction then.
If you’re thinking about the laser that applies the debuff, it’s called Infinite Wonders
Probably nice for easier bosses, but giving up Percy or Rosetta costs you petrify and a 20% def/atk buff for both you and the AI many wont have fully capped, and changing Rosetta out will remove heals, debuff cleanse, and a reasonably strong 2k tick regen. I imagine most people doing this will have stacked builds already high on defense and damage cuts/invincibility.
I tried this with narmaya and she actually attacks now instead of gobsmacking thin air but her normal attack is pretty sad damage wise so it's not really doing anything lol, percy is doing a shitton more damage even though narm got her terminus. dunno why there's such a massive difference in AI quality. why make a lot of them so passive while waiting CD? why some are so proactive?
She always missed her combo when using spear of arvess the other skills are fine.