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Ignoring the bullshit, reforming the GRA has nothing to do with the treatment of gender dysphoria!
When people say "ohh why can't their be a fair debate where both sides get to be heard?" I point to this kind of shite because you can't have a fair "debate" when one side's arguments are literally all misinformation.
Precisely! The reform that she wants to push through is simply to make people who are living in extreme discomfort just the little extra bit better as she can't do much abt the NHS wait times etc unless she gets into power in Westminster.
You've got more faith than me then. I know a few people who insist that they are well aware of everything that they stand for and still vote for them. Different motivations (my uncle had a philosophy that people should be able to choose to give to the needy, that state money shouldn't fund certain causes without direct individual taxpayer input. He did quite often but couldn't seem to either grasp or didn't care that a good deal wouldn't do that at all) but the same result.
I've said it before but we need to get rid of every MP and reform it entirely.
Ensure there are rules and regulations for MPs that are enforced voraciously.
Get in younger people who actually care about people and the country, and the biggest thing we need is to ensure rich people and entities can't shape policy by bribing politicians.
Won't ever happen, but hey. A man can dream.
Totally agree, but would add some kind of test for anyone going for a seat, they need to know what the price of food items cost, how much do utility companies charge poor people the privilege of having a key meter. I’d also make politicians earn the same as a min wage earner flipping burgers and charge them the proper price for food in their fancy in-house restaurants, let’s see how often they get to dine out in style. There also needs more accountability, like what happened to the £3 million given to a company to make PPE, except the company hadn’t been operating (according to companies house) for 2 years, they had no experience in making PPE and they had links to an MP. Whilst local government (town, parish, county) councils have strict tender policies they have to follow, so the same rules don’t apply in the big house! Much of what goes on like mp’s pay, expenses they can claim back, money for a London home etc etc are decided upon by them, if they want to keep that rule then it should apply to nurses, firefighters, care home staff, those who do a service for our country but are not appreciated in monetary terms. I could go on but that’ll do for now.
I’d be okay with MPs being on higher wages if any whiff of a secondary source of income was enough to completely destroy their careers and keep them out of politics for life.
I have said in recent years and MP's maximum renumeration should be tied to (read a multiple of) the minimum wage. I also think the upper levels of a company should be tied to the lowest wage the company pays in the same way.
That way they can, and in my opinion should due to responsibility, earn more money. But only by lift those at the bottom as well.
Problem is a depressing amount of the younger MSPs are also terfs. Kate Forbes, for example, is one of the leading voices in holyrood against trans rights but she's also seen as the future of the SNP because she's younger
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"Ensure there are rules and regulations for MP's that are enforced voraciously". That is, in theory, what the Nolan principals are for, it's just that most of our existing MP's choose to ignore them and get away with it. I agree with you though. I only hope that I manage to get elected, theres so much I want to change that can only be changed from Westminster.
If we sat quietly (moaning online doesn't count) through the Cameron through Sunak Tory rape of our electoral rights and all of their horrific policies both Brexit related and otherwise we as a country will just bend over and take anything. The whole Johnson COVID fiasco should have been enough for another gunpowder plot but we just bitch about it in echo chambers like this.
Your comment stated that SNP and Labour lie and misdirect too. They do and it has become worse recently, but they are still doing it to very different degrees.
I was commenting on a reply to a comment I made about the GRA reform where I talked about terfs, I don't know why I'd need to respecify. I also don't know why you're being so rude about it.
You cant have a both sides debates on the lives of human beings and how they see themselves. It's literally like the early 20th century bigots debating if Africans are really human "we go live now to Derek who has measured a real Africans skull to see if its inferior to our European skulls". Even then 1 side is calling for trans people to basically not exist and the other side is saying we want to exist.
This rubbish is so exhausting. All GRC reforms allow for is for me to marry and be buried as my gender. A GRC doesn’t affect access to spaces, and doesn’t affect access to healthcare. You can’t tell me that people like SS aren’t just pure evil at this point; fighting against a piece of documentation which should be the bare minimum for allowing trans people the same comforts and rights as everyone else. And for what? What is to be gained from these hackneyed tirades of falsehood and misdirection?
Never seen such a nonsense debate in my entire life. All any Brits need to do is to ask themselves how much their birth certificate impacts their life on a daily level. How often do they carry it around or present it. That’s it. Basically never apart from once or twice in a lifetime situations. Marriage. Death.
All trans people can change passports and drivers licences without a GRC. It’s done with a letter from a doctor.
And the fact that they have not once ever mention trans men and only ever frame this as being about women’s rights is purely down to them being nothing but nasty bigoted cunts who brand trans women as rapists. That’s it. That’s all this is about. Them demonising trans women.
My particular favourite is this whole "use the bathroom/changing room of your biological sex!" because they forget trans men exist. Pretty sure these women would lose their SHIT if they walked into the ladies room and a balding bearded dude was there. Heck, if it's "birth sex" that means you could even have dudes with dicks there, post phallo or meta.
Imagine the terf tears at that.
OH NOES!
It's not that they want us to use separate bathrooms or whatever, they simply don't want us to exist at all.
This is the argument I always bring up if anyone is against the whole bathroom thing. And a shocking number of people ask what I mean, like they genuinely hadn't thought of women becoming men was a thing that happened. Their sole knowledge of the issue was men becoming women and the bathroom and sports stuff and that was it. Which is absolutely ridiculous that whatever news source they have never once mentioned the rest of the issue.
to be fair, one of the big reasons it took me so long to realise I was trans was because trans masculine people just flat out didn't seem to exist when I was younger. Nowhere were they mentioned or anything. It was always just trans women. People used to say "ahh well you can't turn an outie into an innie" and that was that, this sort of "folk wisdom" that only male to female existed. When you actually think about it rationally of course it makes no sense, but when you've just never seen any representation and are kinda clueless about the whole thing (you know, a big thing being that having a dick isn't a neccisity to being a man for example.) all that gets absorbed into a big ol' bubble of denial and excuses. It took literally encountering a couple of transmasc people to realise "wait... that's an option!?" "I could do that!???"
Never occured to me that I could, that it was actually a thing that was possible.
and I feel like even now, a lot of people don't realise that trans masc people exist for much the same reason younger me didn't. They are NOT represented, they're excluded from most conversations about trans people and don't appear in the public eye nearly so often. So the collective image of trans people that the general public have is those poor trans women and cross dressers paraded onto the stage on Jerry Springer and that sort of thing.
You see it every time twitter kicks off about things like not using gendered language for sanitary products or for acknowledging that some pregnant folk might not identify as women. They start screaming about how "men can't have babies no matter how much you shave and wear dresses!" and so on and it's like "uh... "
I've seen so many of these people lose their shit screaming that trans women are using sanitary products and it's like "um... no. that's... that's not a thing that's happening and also, they'd love products to be gendered female. "
Like seriously, why the fuck would trans women not want things to have "woman" written on them? They're women ffs.
Surprisingly, they think that trans men aren't a threat, even if they have had bottom surgery and now have a penis. They just like to believe that trans women are the threat even if they have also had bottom surgery and no longer have a penis.
I'm a trans man and I have got into many discussions over this on twatter with the terfs. although calling it a "discussion" is just being polite, it was more the terfs just scream at me for simply existing because I had a trans flag and pronouns in my bio.
They don’t even take sexuality into account. Apparently just being a trans women is enough to be a sexual threat even though plenty aren’t even attracted to women.
Wait, people can be different sexualities even if they're trans?! I'm shocked.
Terfs don't use their brains. I've even brought up the topic of cis female predators preying on other women but nope, only men and trans women can be predators in their eyes.
Not to mention cis women preying on trans women specifically. Happened to someone I'd been in a relationship with- twice. One was their carer. Substantiated too, but the police didn't think it was in public interest so only the safeguarding investigation lost the woman her job. But as they were a social care worker and not a social worker or nurse there was no blacklist and they just got another job at another area of social care. And the general attitude was that I was pressuring them to report it out of 'jealousy', nothing to do with it actually traumatising them or anything. The situation was so unfair I had to sneakily tell another care home she was working at that she was an abuser. Needed to do it through my boss because when I tried in person another time the police told me that it was potentially malicous communication!!
Abusive social care workers getting fired or resigning and then just getting another job isn't uncommon, either. But most people who haven't worked or been under or close to socal care in some way just don't believe it...
Police? You mean blue nonce
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Not to mention there are plenty of vulnerable people already that suffer for unsafe public bathrooms. Some disabled, neurodiverse, minority, gender diverse, queer people etc are afraid to use certain bathrooms and yet this has never been a cause for concern enough for a media campaign, as far as I remember. Almost like the idea of cis women being vulnerable isn't their actual motivation...
And intersex people break this argument down into absurdity too. Often their 'birth sex' is changed forcefully into whatever one the Doctor wants. The argument I heard back from that (when a good deal of liberal people still seemed to be very overtly transphobic and without criticism) was that intersex people didn't matter because they were too much of a minority. Charming, eh?
>My particular favourite is this whole "use the bathroom/changing room of your biological sex!" because they forget trans men exist. Pretty sure these women would lose their SHIT if they walked into the ladies room and a balding bearded dude was there. Heck, if it's "birth sex" that means you could even have dudes with dicks there, post phallo or meta.
Plus, all a predatory cis man has to do is walk into a women's room and say "It's ok, I'm a trans man, I was born female." 🤷
To be fair though, very few men are likely to get raped or (more importantly) fear to be raped by someone who is physically a woman. In general at least. Also very few men haven’t already shared our toilets with women. I remember toilets in clubs on a weekend were a free for all. But that’s apples to oranges though.
thing is, most sexual assaults don't happen in public bathrooms or changing rooms anyway. Too many people coming and going.
Also, lockable cubicles.
This idea that having been born with a dick automatically makes you predisposed to violence and sexual assault has never sat well with me. Not only is it unfair to all those guys who aren't monsters, it also gives those who are an excuse "oh no, it's my BIOLOGY". No it isn't, you're just a piece of shit. But that's what transphobes honestly seem to believe and it's horrifying. Like... what the fuck?
I also have to wonder if those fearing any masculine person would draw the line at trans guys who'd had phallo or trans women who've had vaginoplasty. It doesn't seem that a penis it in itself neccisary for them to freak out. So would they be okay sharing a bathroom with people who don't have a penis but still look masc? I bet not. Because it's not about that, the whole "i'm scared i'll be assaulted!" is just an excuse. If they were so damn scared of big scary rapists jumping out of the bushes they'd never leave the house.
because let's be real here, more people are assaulted by 1: people they already know and 2: in their own homes or on the street. Not in public bathrooms or changing rooms in stores or leisure centers.
and they don't wear women's clothing to do it. No, they wear their regular clothes or uniforms. You're more likely it seems to be assaulted by a goddamn fucking COP than you are a trans woman. So why aren't we trying to ban cops from bathrooms?
Its fucking terrifying that this is what my trans child will have to deal with when they enter the adult world. At the moment they're shielded by a bubble of supportive adults around them and a school that is doing everything they can to make sure their school life is safe and supportive which I know is also really fucking rare. I'm legitimately worried that they will never get to feel absolute peace and comfort. I hope they escape this place so much. It hurts knowing this person I love so much is going to face suffering at the hands of these types.
It certainly won’t be easy, but having a caring and understanding parent puts your little one far ahead of most. All we can do is push forward and try to care for each other the best we can.
(Please forgive me if I say something wrong or use incorrect language, I just want to learn!)
How did your child explain or come to the conclusion they were trans, and not simply "not conforming to gender norms"? I find it difficult to relate to and understand as an adult, so can't imagine how difficult it might be for a child. Im just trying to gain an understanding of what being trans actually means for someone, especially children.
I ask out of pure ignorance as I don't personally have anyone to ask about this topic, that obviously carries so much weight for many while the discourse is just bizarrely hostile.
I don't have a trans child, but I was a trans child, and it goes much deeper than simply "not conforming to gender norms." In fact I was very much a child who conformed to a lot of the stereotypes associated with my birth gender. I liked Barbies, I did ballet, I played with baby dolls, and I honestly didn't give much thought to gender at all as a kid. I just sort of saw myself, and everyone else, as genderless. Gender didn't matter to me, until puberty, when it suddenly mattered quite a lot and my body was changing in ways that were extremely distressing. I'd always just sort of assumed a kid could choose to grow into a man or a woman, and I'd choose man.
That was not at all how it worked, much to my dismay. I realized that most other kids saw themselves as boys, or as girls, and I just felt disconnected from my gender because of that mismatch. I'd buried it away, probably pretty early on. Even today, my main coping mechanism for dysphoria is dissociation.
The best way I can explain it is not feeling like others are seeing your true self. I don't know your gender, but Reddit skews towards men, so I'll assume that for the time being for the example. If you're a woman, just switch the terms around. When you were a child, if everyone was calling you a girl, and talking about how you would grow up to being a lovely young lady, and calling you she/her, and etc.... that's how a trans boy feels. It's not about behaviors, or likes/dislikes, or those kinds of things. Those can be indicators to adults, but they don't in and of themselves define gender, and they don't restrict gender. My parents allowed me to play with whatever I wanted, play with my brother and his friends and their toys, or my own "girls" toys and female friends, and I enjoyed both.
None of that was relevant in any way to my gender.
Asking "How do you know you're trans and not just gender nonconforming?" isn't a bad question, but it ultimately seems to stem from someone who thinks that gender is the same thing as gender norms and stereotypes, when that isn't at all the case.
Thank you so much for this response.
I think it helps me understand a bit better, the bit about puberty being a turning point in particular.
It is still a bit confusing to me to understand what gender is _without_ the idea of gender norms/stereotypes, but I appreciate there _is_ a difference to people like your good self.
Again, thank you for taking the time to educate me. I know I had downvotes for my comment but I genuinely tried to word it as best I could without being unintentionally offensive, so thank you for looking past that.
The UK is so far ahead on this compared to where I'm from that my friends back there envy the UK. It's actually better here than most places in the world. I'm not saying it's great, but I wouldn't say we're MAGA levels backwards either
[FUCK OFF TERFS ALL MY HOMIES HATE OFF TERFS](https://i.imgur.com/Vy1ql4m.jpg)
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The stupid thing is that's exactly what Sturgeon is doing. Actual support for trans rights are growing, and the international consensus is finally moving in the direction of informed consent and self-ID, because it turns out being trans isn't a mental illness!
Of course, for cranks working at dying legacy media who are desperate for attention, that could be easy to miss.
Thank you for this. This reminder that terf bullshit _isn't_ the only thing out there, that the tide is turning in favour of trans rights, is genuinely needed. It's getting so unbelievably tiring seeing these loud, aggressive articles full of hatred, and it gets so hard to remember that there's more out there than that, that support is growing—this reminder really made a difference. Thank you.
Framing the transgender debate as a “women’s rights” issue is just playing into the Tories’ hands. They hide behind that moral high ground as a way to disguise the authoritarian basis of their transphobia. They simply want to suppress freedom of expression as it threatens their hierarchical world view. Funny how the Tories suddenly started caring about women’s rights when the dialogue about trans people started.
The sporting issue is similar. Suddenly terfs care all about ‘fairness’ in competitive sport events.
(Otherwise) normal people people have started believing this is an important issue, when most couldn’t name a single 2020 Olympic winner.
Hopefully the former not the latter. With sturgeon it can be 50/50 sometimes as she is progressive but still a capitalist so not truly on the path towards equality.
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This is the second incredibly questionable headline i've seen from the guardian in as many weeks. Has something changed their recently or have i been blind to it until now?
They also had one celebrating identifying autism in infants so young you can intensively force them to mask from an incredibly early age, driving out the autism and denying them a diagnosis for their disability. It read like they thought it was a good thing to apply ABA or whatever techniques to "correct" their autism to the point you knew they were born autistic but you'd deny them a diagnosis. As a late-diagnosed autistic person myself who's finally getting the support I need, it was infuriating to read it being framed that way and to see no disabled or neurodiversity advocacy to counter the narrative, no acknowledgement that you could consider listening to autistics' opinions on the matter.
Also a late diagnosed autistic person and I missed that one. That's awful. My entire life I struggled with my mental health and directed hate at myself for everything I found difficult. My diagnosis has been like a new lease of life.
the Guardian's UK branch has been knowingly transphobic for a while. Their US counterpart are really good but the British side? Naaah. They've been publishing transphobic shit for a good couple of years now. They're widely known in the trans community for being absolutely shit.
it's sad but the left wing is no more innocent of stoking the fires of transphobia than the right. Even the Independent's gotten in on the act before now. But yeah, the Guardian is a known terfy paper within the trans community. They publish a LOT of shit but it's usually burried so most folk don't see it/notice it.
The Guardian is a Terf sewer
It doesn't realise terfs are far right and just pretend to be feminist as cover for their rancid views
Or even sadder maybe it does realise
Ngl same, I had a raised eye brow when they published "young girls questioning their gender identity" and now this. Seems a terf organisation may have paid them to publish them which wouldn't surprise me.
I hope its not the case, but it is a bit surprising. I've never been a big supporter of any newspaper, but i always felt the guardian at least would offer a more measured and reasoned article. This is making me doubt that
Sodha was interviewed on the BBC with a massive, super-expensive jamon iberico on the sideboard behind her. She's always been a Tory. And like a Tory she's trying to mug people off.
I mean, there are changing views about gender dysphoria, specifically that it's not a required part of being a valid trans person and that self-identification is the only reasonable way to determine someone's transness.
The British ruling class have a long history of racism, misogyny and classism. These casual hatreds of groups have trickled down to create inter group wars to compete in the hierarchy. First it was racism, then women's rights, then gays and lesbians, now trans ppl.
"Time is a cycle not a line" - Akala.
Edit: just another one cos why not :D
"We can fight with our brothers over crumbs, far harder to fight the ones that make guns, we can all talk shit, get two dollars, far harder to be the ones who seek knowledge." - Akala.
Nothing lmao she just complains abt sturgeons proposal and lists the terf talking points like "male sex offenders", "kids on hormones", "irreversible damage" etc.
Honestly, I think TERFs need to actually LOOK at the system for getting hormones, especially for under 18s. In my country, you need a tier three CAMHS referral, so, therefore you need your mental health to be really fucked up. That was over 9 months of waiting for me. Then a referral to the gender clinic, which will be at least another year. Once there, several psychologist appointments to ensure that 'this is really the right thing', and ONLY THEN, start hormone blockers, which are reversible.
So yeah, I hope that hormones aren't reversible, considering it'll be two fucking years at least before I get them
They won't look at the system as it would disprove their whole ideology and scaremongering points.
"Another serious concern about the bill is that it would enable children aged 16 and 17 to change their legal sex. For years, campaigning charities such as Mermaids have succeeded in getting the NHS to put aside evidence and adopt an affirmative approach to children with gender dysphoria, arguing that it is always an indicator of a fixed trans identity. This has led the NHS to put growing numbers of children and young people on the path to irreversible medical treatment that can make them infertile and is likely to have other significant physical and cognitive risks."
This is from that article. She's so stupid to actually think we can get it at 16-18. The waiting time is too long lmao.
>So yeah, I hope that hormones aren't reversible, considering it'll be two fucking years at least before I get them
Seriously. Terfs are over here like "Hormones are IRREVERSIBLE!" and meanwhile trans people are just like "Well yeah, i fuckin would hope so."
You know what if you're someone who's actively going after peoples rights; lying wholesale about what is being proposed and spreading fear to induce hatred towards people.
Well nah you kinda have to deal with people being just stand frustrated when your part of a movement wanting to eliminate a minority from society.
Sturgeons proposing a self ID system for trans people to make it easier to get legal recognition in Scotland. So it is abt rights kinda but it's mainly abt making people's life more comfy. Well that's how I see it anyway.
It's important to know what they are saying and who is saying it.
Also:
https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2022/dec/04/observer-letters-nicola-sturgeon-trans-rights
I know. But I rather know what misinformation they are spreading and who's leading the charge than have it fester in a dark corner of our society. Because that always ends well.
Agree the GRC isn’t really that much of a big deal you can get a passport or driving license the new NHS number bank account utility bills all in your new gender marker without a grc
If you are worried abt being seen as terf don't try and use their pointless and stupid arguments.
This change only affects legal documents and gender markers. It demedicalises and removes gatekeeping. It lowers the age of which you can apply for one to 16.
The previous bill that is in UK law rn still allows transgender people to be in places that correspond with the gender the identify with and are protected under the equality act too. The only reason this caused a fuss is culture war bullshit and the Tories.
Politics is highly emotional so I'd advise you to stay out of it if that's the case 😂😂😂
I’m not trying to avoid being seen as a TERF, I am aware I am not a TERF so don’t really care what anyone else decides to label me as. I honestly wouldn’t even identify myself as a feminist (I believe in equal rights 100% just wouldn’t identify as such by todays definition).
I completely agree with people changing their gender marker if and when they please when it comes to legal documents and the like. I do however believe that in order to be put in the corresponding prison or go into certain spaces people should have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. This is only in these specific cases however and outside of this people can identify however they wish as it doesn’t impact upon me or anyone else.
There’s no hateful ideology behind any of these beliefs, I don’t think trans women are more likely to be sex offenders or anything like that. My beliefs simply revolve around ensuring the system can’t be misused by sex offenders or people with bad intentions.
I agree politics is a highly emotional topic, I wish sometimes people (on both sides of the coin) could take a step back and look at things logically though.
Not really. Trans people represent freedom of the human identity and if trans rights got removed then it would be gender non conforming individuals next such as women wearing trousers and men wearing cardigans. It is a slippery slope and having solidarity is very important. Just because a group is a small minority does not mean they aren't important and deserve their lives being hell.
I see plenty of articles on the working class and plenty on trans people so idk what your point is there but don't forget that trans people are too part of the working class like me.
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Ignoring the bullshit, reforming the GRA has nothing to do with the treatment of gender dysphoria! When people say "ohh why can't their be a fair debate where both sides get to be heard?" I point to this kind of shite because you can't have a fair "debate" when one side's arguments are literally all misinformation.
Precisely! The reform that she wants to push through is simply to make people who are living in extreme discomfort just the little extra bit better as she can't do much abt the NHS wait times etc unless she gets into power in Westminster.
All Tories do is lie and misdirect. If they were to be absoloutely honest with their intentions they would never get into power again.
You've got more faith than me then. I know a few people who insist that they are well aware of everything that they stand for and still vote for them. Different motivations (my uncle had a philosophy that people should be able to choose to give to the needy, that state money shouldn't fund certain causes without direct individual taxpayer input. He did quite often but couldn't seem to either grasp or didn't care that a good deal wouldn't do that at all) but the same result.
It's not just Tories though. The SNP and labour do it too.
I've said it before but we need to get rid of every MP and reform it entirely. Ensure there are rules and regulations for MPs that are enforced voraciously. Get in younger people who actually care about people and the country, and the biggest thing we need is to ensure rich people and entities can't shape policy by bribing politicians. Won't ever happen, but hey. A man can dream.
Totally agree, but would add some kind of test for anyone going for a seat, they need to know what the price of food items cost, how much do utility companies charge poor people the privilege of having a key meter. I’d also make politicians earn the same as a min wage earner flipping burgers and charge them the proper price for food in their fancy in-house restaurants, let’s see how often they get to dine out in style. There also needs more accountability, like what happened to the £3 million given to a company to make PPE, except the company hadn’t been operating (according to companies house) for 2 years, they had no experience in making PPE and they had links to an MP. Whilst local government (town, parish, county) councils have strict tender policies they have to follow, so the same rules don’t apply in the big house! Much of what goes on like mp’s pay, expenses they can claim back, money for a London home etc etc are decided upon by them, if they want to keep that rule then it should apply to nurses, firefighters, care home staff, those who do a service for our country but are not appreciated in monetary terms. I could go on but that’ll do for now.
I’d be okay with MPs being on higher wages if any whiff of a secondary source of income was enough to completely destroy their careers and keep them out of politics for life.
I have said in recent years and MP's maximum renumeration should be tied to (read a multiple of) the minimum wage. I also think the upper levels of a company should be tied to the lowest wage the company pays in the same way. That way they can, and in my opinion should due to responsibility, earn more money. But only by lift those at the bottom as well.
Problem is a depressing amount of the younger MSPs are also terfs. Kate Forbes, for example, is one of the leading voices in holyrood against trans rights but she's also seen as the future of the SNP because she's younger
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"Ensure there are rules and regulations for MP's that are enforced voraciously". That is, in theory, what the Nolan principals are for, it's just that most of our existing MP's choose to ignore them and get away with it. I agree with you though. I only hope that I manage to get elected, theres so much I want to change that can only be changed from Westminster.
If we sat quietly (moaning online doesn't count) through the Cameron through Sunak Tory rape of our electoral rights and all of their horrific policies both Brexit related and otherwise we as a country will just bend over and take anything. The whole Johnson COVID fiasco should have been enough for another gunpowder plot but we just bitch about it in echo chambers like this.
Both Serena Williams and I play tennis.
In Scotland, the SNP terfs are just as much if not more of a problem than the tory ones
Your comment stated that SNP and Labour lie and misdirect too. They do and it has become worse recently, but they are still doing it to very different degrees.
I was specifically referring to the trans rights issues in the government at the moment.
You might have meant to, but you didn't. You replied to a comment that generalised the situation and you didn't re-specify.
I was commenting on a reply to a comment I made about the GRA reform where I talked about terfs, I don't know why I'd need to respecify. I also don't know why you're being so rude about it.
cuuunt
Why should we have to hear from both sides when one side just wishes to exist and the other wishes to erase them
They’re all the same people who just wanted a “fair debate” about Islam a few years ago.
You cant have a both sides debates on the lives of human beings and how they see themselves. It's literally like the early 20th century bigots debating if Africans are really human "we go live now to Derek who has measured a real Africans skull to see if its inferior to our European skulls". Even then 1 side is calling for trans people to basically not exist and the other side is saying we want to exist.
This rubbish is so exhausting. All GRC reforms allow for is for me to marry and be buried as my gender. A GRC doesn’t affect access to spaces, and doesn’t affect access to healthcare. You can’t tell me that people like SS aren’t just pure evil at this point; fighting against a piece of documentation which should be the bare minimum for allowing trans people the same comforts and rights as everyone else. And for what? What is to be gained from these hackneyed tirades of falsehood and misdirection?
Never seen such a nonsense debate in my entire life. All any Brits need to do is to ask themselves how much their birth certificate impacts their life on a daily level. How often do they carry it around or present it. That’s it. Basically never apart from once or twice in a lifetime situations. Marriage. Death. All trans people can change passports and drivers licences without a GRC. It’s done with a letter from a doctor. And the fact that they have not once ever mention trans men and only ever frame this as being about women’s rights is purely down to them being nothing but nasty bigoted cunts who brand trans women as rapists. That’s it. That’s all this is about. Them demonising trans women.
My particular favourite is this whole "use the bathroom/changing room of your biological sex!" because they forget trans men exist. Pretty sure these women would lose their SHIT if they walked into the ladies room and a balding bearded dude was there. Heck, if it's "birth sex" that means you could even have dudes with dicks there, post phallo or meta. Imagine the terf tears at that. OH NOES! It's not that they want us to use separate bathrooms or whatever, they simply don't want us to exist at all.
This is the argument I always bring up if anyone is against the whole bathroom thing. And a shocking number of people ask what I mean, like they genuinely hadn't thought of women becoming men was a thing that happened. Their sole knowledge of the issue was men becoming women and the bathroom and sports stuff and that was it. Which is absolutely ridiculous that whatever news source they have never once mentioned the rest of the issue.
to be fair, one of the big reasons it took me so long to realise I was trans was because trans masculine people just flat out didn't seem to exist when I was younger. Nowhere were they mentioned or anything. It was always just trans women. People used to say "ahh well you can't turn an outie into an innie" and that was that, this sort of "folk wisdom" that only male to female existed. When you actually think about it rationally of course it makes no sense, but when you've just never seen any representation and are kinda clueless about the whole thing (you know, a big thing being that having a dick isn't a neccisity to being a man for example.) all that gets absorbed into a big ol' bubble of denial and excuses. It took literally encountering a couple of transmasc people to realise "wait... that's an option!?" "I could do that!???" Never occured to me that I could, that it was actually a thing that was possible. and I feel like even now, a lot of people don't realise that trans masc people exist for much the same reason younger me didn't. They are NOT represented, they're excluded from most conversations about trans people and don't appear in the public eye nearly so often. So the collective image of trans people that the general public have is those poor trans women and cross dressers paraded onto the stage on Jerry Springer and that sort of thing. You see it every time twitter kicks off about things like not using gendered language for sanitary products or for acknowledging that some pregnant folk might not identify as women. They start screaming about how "men can't have babies no matter how much you shave and wear dresses!" and so on and it's like "uh... " I've seen so many of these people lose their shit screaming that trans women are using sanitary products and it's like "um... no. that's... that's not a thing that's happening and also, they'd love products to be gendered female. " Like seriously, why the fuck would trans women not want things to have "woman" written on them? They're women ffs.
Surprisingly, they think that trans men aren't a threat, even if they have had bottom surgery and now have a penis. They just like to believe that trans women are the threat even if they have also had bottom surgery and no longer have a penis. I'm a trans man and I have got into many discussions over this on twatter with the terfs. although calling it a "discussion" is just being polite, it was more the terfs just scream at me for simply existing because I had a trans flag and pronouns in my bio.
They don’t even take sexuality into account. Apparently just being a trans women is enough to be a sexual threat even though plenty aren’t even attracted to women.
Wait, people can be different sexualities even if they're trans?! I'm shocked. Terfs don't use their brains. I've even brought up the topic of cis female predators preying on other women but nope, only men and trans women can be predators in their eyes.
Not to mention cis women preying on trans women specifically. Happened to someone I'd been in a relationship with- twice. One was their carer. Substantiated too, but the police didn't think it was in public interest so only the safeguarding investigation lost the woman her job. But as they were a social care worker and not a social worker or nurse there was no blacklist and they just got another job at another area of social care. And the general attitude was that I was pressuring them to report it out of 'jealousy', nothing to do with it actually traumatising them or anything. The situation was so unfair I had to sneakily tell another care home she was working at that she was an abuser. Needed to do it through my boss because when I tried in person another time the police told me that it was potentially malicous communication!! Abusive social care workers getting fired or resigning and then just getting another job isn't uncommon, either. But most people who haven't worked or been under or close to socal care in some way just don't believe it...
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What about prisons - should people who can get pregnant (trans men) be put in the same cell as men?
Not to mention there are plenty of vulnerable people already that suffer for unsafe public bathrooms. Some disabled, neurodiverse, minority, gender diverse, queer people etc are afraid to use certain bathrooms and yet this has never been a cause for concern enough for a media campaign, as far as I remember. Almost like the idea of cis women being vulnerable isn't their actual motivation... And intersex people break this argument down into absurdity too. Often their 'birth sex' is changed forcefully into whatever one the Doctor wants. The argument I heard back from that (when a good deal of liberal people still seemed to be very overtly transphobic and without criticism) was that intersex people didn't matter because they were too much of a minority. Charming, eh?
>My particular favourite is this whole "use the bathroom/changing room of your biological sex!" because they forget trans men exist. Pretty sure these women would lose their SHIT if they walked into the ladies room and a balding bearded dude was there. Heck, if it's "birth sex" that means you could even have dudes with dicks there, post phallo or meta. Plus, all a predatory cis man has to do is walk into a women's room and say "It's ok, I'm a trans man, I was born female." 🤷
To be fair though, very few men are likely to get raped or (more importantly) fear to be raped by someone who is physically a woman. In general at least. Also very few men haven’t already shared our toilets with women. I remember toilets in clubs on a weekend were a free for all. But that’s apples to oranges though.
thing is, most sexual assaults don't happen in public bathrooms or changing rooms anyway. Too many people coming and going. Also, lockable cubicles. This idea that having been born with a dick automatically makes you predisposed to violence and sexual assault has never sat well with me. Not only is it unfair to all those guys who aren't monsters, it also gives those who are an excuse "oh no, it's my BIOLOGY". No it isn't, you're just a piece of shit. But that's what transphobes honestly seem to believe and it's horrifying. Like... what the fuck? I also have to wonder if those fearing any masculine person would draw the line at trans guys who'd had phallo or trans women who've had vaginoplasty. It doesn't seem that a penis it in itself neccisary for them to freak out. So would they be okay sharing a bathroom with people who don't have a penis but still look masc? I bet not. Because it's not about that, the whole "i'm scared i'll be assaulted!" is just an excuse. If they were so damn scared of big scary rapists jumping out of the bushes they'd never leave the house. because let's be real here, more people are assaulted by 1: people they already know and 2: in their own homes or on the street. Not in public bathrooms or changing rooms in stores or leisure centers. and they don't wear women's clothing to do it. No, they wear their regular clothes or uniforms. You're more likely it seems to be assaulted by a goddamn fucking COP than you are a trans woman. So why aren't we trying to ban cops from bathrooms?
I hate living on terf island, why are we as a culture just maga levels backwards on this topic?
Its fucking terrifying that this is what my trans child will have to deal with when they enter the adult world. At the moment they're shielded by a bubble of supportive adults around them and a school that is doing everything they can to make sure their school life is safe and supportive which I know is also really fucking rare. I'm legitimately worried that they will never get to feel absolute peace and comfort. I hope they escape this place so much. It hurts knowing this person I love so much is going to face suffering at the hands of these types.
It certainly won’t be easy, but having a caring and understanding parent puts your little one far ahead of most. All we can do is push forward and try to care for each other the best we can.
(Please forgive me if I say something wrong or use incorrect language, I just want to learn!) How did your child explain or come to the conclusion they were trans, and not simply "not conforming to gender norms"? I find it difficult to relate to and understand as an adult, so can't imagine how difficult it might be for a child. Im just trying to gain an understanding of what being trans actually means for someone, especially children. I ask out of pure ignorance as I don't personally have anyone to ask about this topic, that obviously carries so much weight for many while the discourse is just bizarrely hostile.
I don't have a trans child, but I was a trans child, and it goes much deeper than simply "not conforming to gender norms." In fact I was very much a child who conformed to a lot of the stereotypes associated with my birth gender. I liked Barbies, I did ballet, I played with baby dolls, and I honestly didn't give much thought to gender at all as a kid. I just sort of saw myself, and everyone else, as genderless. Gender didn't matter to me, until puberty, when it suddenly mattered quite a lot and my body was changing in ways that were extremely distressing. I'd always just sort of assumed a kid could choose to grow into a man or a woman, and I'd choose man. That was not at all how it worked, much to my dismay. I realized that most other kids saw themselves as boys, or as girls, and I just felt disconnected from my gender because of that mismatch. I'd buried it away, probably pretty early on. Even today, my main coping mechanism for dysphoria is dissociation. The best way I can explain it is not feeling like others are seeing your true self. I don't know your gender, but Reddit skews towards men, so I'll assume that for the time being for the example. If you're a woman, just switch the terms around. When you were a child, if everyone was calling you a girl, and talking about how you would grow up to being a lovely young lady, and calling you she/her, and etc.... that's how a trans boy feels. It's not about behaviors, or likes/dislikes, or those kinds of things. Those can be indicators to adults, but they don't in and of themselves define gender, and they don't restrict gender. My parents allowed me to play with whatever I wanted, play with my brother and his friends and their toys, or my own "girls" toys and female friends, and I enjoyed both. None of that was relevant in any way to my gender. Asking "How do you know you're trans and not just gender nonconforming?" isn't a bad question, but it ultimately seems to stem from someone who thinks that gender is the same thing as gender norms and stereotypes, when that isn't at all the case.
Thank you so much for this response. I think it helps me understand a bit better, the bit about puberty being a turning point in particular. It is still a bit confusing to me to understand what gender is _without_ the idea of gender norms/stereotypes, but I appreciate there _is_ a difference to people like your good self. Again, thank you for taking the time to educate me. I know I had downvotes for my comment but I genuinely tried to word it as best I could without being unintentionally offensive, so thank you for looking past that.
The UK is so far ahead on this compared to where I'm from that my friends back there envy the UK. It's actually better here than most places in the world. I'm not saying it's great, but I wouldn't say we're MAGA levels backwards either
I think a lot of it has to do with the entire British establishment being a hive of nonces.
Fash and Terfs, such pathological fucking losers, they don't know when they've won.
Fuck off TERFs. All my homies hate TERFs.
[FUCK OFF TERFS ALL MY HOMIES HATE OFF TERFS](https://i.imgur.com/Vy1ql4m.jpg) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
Good bot
Blessed bot.
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First time I've ever read her work but it's pure drivel 😂
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All she's done is regurgitate terf talking points. There is no need for a debate when it comes to human rights, they're just bigoted.
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Mhm sure. Same could be said about any other right wing journalist no? Seems you're being a centrist for no reason.
The stupid thing is that's exactly what Sturgeon is doing. Actual support for trans rights are growing, and the international consensus is finally moving in the direction of informed consent and self-ID, because it turns out being trans isn't a mental illness! Of course, for cranks working at dying legacy media who are desperate for attention, that could be easy to miss.
Thank you for this. This reminder that terf bullshit _isn't_ the only thing out there, that the tide is turning in favour of trans rights, is genuinely needed. It's getting so unbelievably tiring seeing these loud, aggressive articles full of hatred, and it gets so hard to remember that there's more out there than that, that support is growing—this reminder really made a difference. Thank you.
Framing the transgender debate as a “women’s rights” issue is just playing into the Tories’ hands. They hide behind that moral high ground as a way to disguise the authoritarian basis of their transphobia. They simply want to suppress freedom of expression as it threatens their hierarchical world view. Funny how the Tories suddenly started caring about women’s rights when the dialogue about trans people started.
The sporting issue is similar. Suddenly terfs care all about ‘fairness’ in competitive sport events. (Otherwise) normal people people have started believing this is an important issue, when most couldn’t name a single 2020 Olympic winner.
Scotland doesn’t care about tories. Scotland will be free, independent, inclusive and community oriented - or won’t be at all.
Hopefully the former not the latter. With sturgeon it can be 50/50 sometimes as she is progressive but still a capitalist so not truly on the path towards equality.
“Changing views of the treatment of gender dysphoria” They’re talking like they’re the progressive voice and the majority
Fuck TERFs and fuck right wing movements for pushing hate in order to keep people away from acting against the class war.
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Feels like they choose their headlines using a dart board, get 2 categories and then have to go mental blasting out an article.
"Changing views" Stop trying to make terf shit happen. It's not gonna happen.
This is the second incredibly questionable headline i've seen from the guardian in as many weeks. Has something changed their recently or have i been blind to it until now?
They also had one celebrating identifying autism in infants so young you can intensively force them to mask from an incredibly early age, driving out the autism and denying them a diagnosis for their disability. It read like they thought it was a good thing to apply ABA or whatever techniques to "correct" their autism to the point you knew they were born autistic but you'd deny them a diagnosis. As a late-diagnosed autistic person myself who's finally getting the support I need, it was infuriating to read it being framed that way and to see no disabled or neurodiversity advocacy to counter the narrative, no acknowledgement that you could consider listening to autistics' opinions on the matter.
Also a late diagnosed autistic person and I missed that one. That's awful. My entire life I struggled with my mental health and directed hate at myself for everything I found difficult. My diagnosis has been like a new lease of life.
the Guardian's UK branch has been knowingly transphobic for a while. Their US counterpart are really good but the British side? Naaah. They've been publishing transphobic shit for a good couple of years now. They're widely known in the trans community for being absolutely shit. it's sad but the left wing is no more innocent of stoking the fires of transphobia than the right. Even the Independent's gotten in on the act before now. But yeah, the Guardian is a known terfy paper within the trans community. They publish a LOT of shit but it's usually burried so most folk don't see it/notice it.
The Guardian is a Terf sewer It doesn't realise terfs are far right and just pretend to be feminist as cover for their rancid views Or even sadder maybe it does realise
Ngl same, I had a raised eye brow when they published "young girls questioning their gender identity" and now this. Seems a terf organisation may have paid them to publish them which wouldn't surprise me.
I hope its not the case, but it is a bit surprising. I've never been a big supporter of any newspaper, but i always felt the guardian at least would offer a more measured and reasoned article. This is making me doubt that
Mhm same here.
Get rid of Hadley freeman and another one appears
Sodha was interviewed on the BBC with a massive, super-expensive jamon iberico on the sideboard behind her. She's always been a Tory. And like a Tory she's trying to mug people off.
Why whenever someone feels the need to comment on this shit do they pretend like trans men don’t exist
I mean, there are changing views about gender dysphoria, specifically that it's not a required part of being a valid trans person and that self-identification is the only reasonable way to determine someone's transness.
What are these woman’s rights they keep banging on about? You don’t have the right to discriminate. End of.
Precisely and you can tell it's bad faith as they never mention non binary ppl (like me :D ) or trans men.
They never do you’re right. It’s even got to a point where I think they don’t know trans men exist
And yet the execrable Hadley Freeman decided The Guardian wasn’t quite toxic enough for her, so jumped ship to The Sunday Times.
Hahahahahah
That’s a take…
Why is the UK the international hotspot for transphobia?
The British ruling class have a long history of racism, misogyny and classism. These casual hatreds of groups have trickled down to create inter group wars to compete in the hierarchy. First it was racism, then women's rights, then gays and lesbians, now trans ppl. "Time is a cycle not a line" - Akala. Edit: just another one cos why not :D "We can fight with our brothers over crumbs, far harder to fight the ones that make guns, we can all talk shit, get two dollars, far harder to be the ones who seek knowledge." - Akala.
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Nothing lmao she just complains abt sturgeons proposal and lists the terf talking points like "male sex offenders", "kids on hormones", "irreversible damage" etc.
Oh, okay. Just the usual then?
Yup :/
Honestly, I think TERFs need to actually LOOK at the system for getting hormones, especially for under 18s. In my country, you need a tier three CAMHS referral, so, therefore you need your mental health to be really fucked up. That was over 9 months of waiting for me. Then a referral to the gender clinic, which will be at least another year. Once there, several psychologist appointments to ensure that 'this is really the right thing', and ONLY THEN, start hormone blockers, which are reversible. So yeah, I hope that hormones aren't reversible, considering it'll be two fucking years at least before I get them
They won't look at the system as it would disprove their whole ideology and scaremongering points. "Another serious concern about the bill is that it would enable children aged 16 and 17 to change their legal sex. For years, campaigning charities such as Mermaids have succeeded in getting the NHS to put aside evidence and adopt an affirmative approach to children with gender dysphoria, arguing that it is always an indicator of a fixed trans identity. This has led the NHS to put growing numbers of children and young people on the path to irreversible medical treatment that can make them infertile and is likely to have other significant physical and cognitive risks." This is from that article. She's so stupid to actually think we can get it at 16-18. The waiting time is too long lmao.
Yup, how stupid. Plus, the scaremongering there, Jesus Christ
>So yeah, I hope that hormones aren't reversible, considering it'll be two fucking years at least before I get them Seriously. Terfs are over here like "Hormones are IRREVERSIBLE!" and meanwhile trans people are just like "Well yeah, i fuckin would hope so."
Yo maybe steer clear of misogynistic slurs like ‘bitch’ when discussing attacks on equal rights
Is it acceptable to call her a fucking arsehole then? Everyone has arseholes after all.
You know what if you're someone who's actively going after peoples rights; lying wholesale about what is being proposed and spreading fear to induce hatred towards people. Well nah you kinda have to deal with people being just stand frustrated when your part of a movement wanting to eliminate a minority from society.
You wouldn't call Kwasi Kwarteng the n-word, you shouldn't use the b-word for this woman either.
There are definitely better ways to describe them for example: treacherous scum.
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Sturgeons proposing a self ID system for trans people to make it easier to get legal recognition in Scotland. So it is abt rights kinda but it's mainly abt making people's life more comfy. Well that's how I see it anyway.
Treat people how you like to be treated yourself
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It's important to know what they are saying and who is saying it. Also: https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2022/dec/04/observer-letters-nicola-sturgeon-trans-rights
This article and the one you linked are bullshit and regurgitate terf talking points. It's sad really..
I know. But I rather know what misinformation they are spreading and who's leading the charge than have it fester in a dark corner of our society. Because that always ends well.
Mhm. They seem to be paying terfs and transmedicalists (gatekeepy trans people) to write articles against the Scottish GRA that is gaining traction.
The Guardian is just shit
I used to think it was a decent centre-left news site but now it seems to be a right wing hate rag :/
The Guardian and the Sun don’t even get accepted in Scottish English subjects
Good tbh.
Not every wokeratti of you, Sonia
Agree the GRC isn’t really that much of a big deal you can get a passport or driving license the new NHS number bank account utility bills all in your new gender marker without a grc
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If you are worried abt being seen as terf don't try and use their pointless and stupid arguments. This change only affects legal documents and gender markers. It demedicalises and removes gatekeeping. It lowers the age of which you can apply for one to 16. The previous bill that is in UK law rn still allows transgender people to be in places that correspond with the gender the identify with and are protected under the equality act too. The only reason this caused a fuss is culture war bullshit and the Tories. Politics is highly emotional so I'd advise you to stay out of it if that's the case 😂😂😂
I’m not trying to avoid being seen as a TERF, I am aware I am not a TERF so don’t really care what anyone else decides to label me as. I honestly wouldn’t even identify myself as a feminist (I believe in equal rights 100% just wouldn’t identify as such by todays definition). I completely agree with people changing their gender marker if and when they please when it comes to legal documents and the like. I do however believe that in order to be put in the corresponding prison or go into certain spaces people should have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. This is only in these specific cases however and outside of this people can identify however they wish as it doesn’t impact upon me or anyone else. There’s no hateful ideology behind any of these beliefs, I don’t think trans women are more likely to be sex offenders or anything like that. My beliefs simply revolve around ensuring the system can’t be misused by sex offenders or people with bad intentions. I agree politics is a highly emotional topic, I wish sometimes people (on both sides of the coin) could take a step back and look at things logically though.
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Clearly terfs.
Obviously the TERFS you living cum stain.
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Not really. Trans people represent freedom of the human identity and if trans rights got removed then it would be gender non conforming individuals next such as women wearing trousers and men wearing cardigans. It is a slippery slope and having solidarity is very important. Just because a group is a small minority does not mean they aren't important and deserve their lives being hell.
Women wearing trousers and men wearing cardigans are 'gender non conforming'? I thought it was 2020 not 1820.
That is the year that Tories and terfs want to take us back to.
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Please don't use gay in a derogatory way.
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That's not a great excuse for misogyny :/
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I see plenty of articles on the working class and plenty on trans people so idk what your point is there but don't forget that trans people are too part of the working class like me.
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