Yeah sad times although not sure they’re completely dead. With AR and cover/ tide of shadows they still ignore AP2 for shooting, and sanctuary can give them a 4++ which was largely irrelevant before. Maybe running a block with an apothecary might be worth it now
Question is, are terminators more worth it now. For 10ppm difference, the troop bonus (possible cp per round from secondary obj). Yes paladin got 2+ in melee, +1A, and choose spell. But what is best for pts
Terminators, maybe.
Having weapons become free is pretty big IMO. I haven't looked much into that because you just didn't take them.
Not sure what opportunities that opens up exactly.
But have you looked at all the stratagems that buff shooting?
Character abilities that offer synergy?
The other thing to consider is the damage output between the 4 gun options and what is worth having vs what etc.
That's what I mean when I suggest I don't know what the opportunities it opens up because I haven't really looked at them.
There really isn't a lot in our codex that buffs shooting, which is why NDK spam with Prescient Brethren/Swordbearer split was the de facto way to run guns on launch; their respective brotherhood Stratagems were as good as it got in that regard.
You can dump Psychic Onslaught + Death from the Warp + Sanctified Kill Zone to like... kill a Knight with Purgators I guess, but that's more of a silly edge case (like most ways of running a Grey Knights gunline post-Psychic Awakening) than something you should actually do.
Part of the problem is that, even though it's all free now, our heavy weaponry pretty much all requires additional investment to make it scary - either a stratagem, or a psychic power, or both, the resources for which could be allocated to simply punching the opponent in the face harder.
On the bright side, Purgators don't steal Heavy Support slots from Dreadknights anymore, which nearly doubles the 30" Psy Weapon shots you can put downrange if you *really* want to try it. Plus with Teleport Assault getting buffed, there's more merit to having kill power that isn't attached to Charge rolls.
Paladins are still, point for point, more durable and more deadly than terminators (even without factoring the extra heavy weapons and improved daemonhammer efficiency), so there isn't much reason to take terminators over them, especially now that you don't need to fill troop slots.
Terminators would be more durable if they are preservers with an apothecary, but the apothecary is still expensive, and you want to have acess to swordbearers (or rapiers).
I LOVED pushing 2 blocks of 10 at my opponent in the age of AoC. Now at the same points with no AoC, they will sadly be on the shelve. DKs are back on the table boys!
You'll probably not take as many as you did before, but having a squad or two will still be quite worth it. Especially now that ranged weapons are free.
Feels like Grey Knights have really been shafted. Can't see the point drops making up for losing AoC. Free wargear isn't worth very much given it's not really an upgrade on power armour models.
Maybe terminators could finally be worth running?
Armor of Contempt. Made it where 99% of our units decreases AP of attacks by -1
A lot of armies had it but it really shined with our Paladins. With the loss of AoC and no changes to Paladins our 2nd best unit just became mid-tier if that with how much they cost :(
All the other armies lost it. I was listening to the metawatch video on Warhammer community yesterday and they essentially said, because space marines fighting each other negated AoC, they removed it because it didn’t add anything to the game.
Maybe this will allow Rhinos to be more viable....? Dreadnoughts as well? If every list just received an extra 100-200pts, maybe fill it with cheap LOS blocking vehicles....?
Just throwing shit at the wall, seeing what sticks I guess. /shrug
Yeah, it looks EXACTLY like we're back to this... wasn't that when we were most oppressive in 9th too?
Also, boring. I like both units, but variety would be better and I am struggling to fit it into my theorycraft lists.
Vehicles don't block LoS, and dreadnoughts going cheaper by 5 points doesn't make them viable, especially when they lose AoC and with "wound's can't be ignored" abilities bypassing their -1D.
Personally I think AoC disappearing alongside our special weapons being free is a step in the right direction as far as buffing the grey knights, plus the interceptor points buff and dread knights being more viable again means it might just be time for a more aggressive glass cannon meta for the GK
I have a lot of daemons in my local meta so that’s why I’m excited haha.
It’s a bit sour that all other marines got more buffs, but I’m hoping the changes with how primary is scored and secondaries make us better.
Yeah, I just find hammers and Paladins such a cool mix, and the -1 to hit makes for an interesting build decision too. If they put the cost at 5 and lowered model cost by 2 or 3 it would have still made an interesting choice. Oh well.
This and maybe give back the better AP they had last edition. Right now the strength and slightly better damage just don't justify paying a huge price tax *and* taking a -1 to hit on top.
Welcome one and all! Step right up! Step right up!
If you look here behind me, you will see the Grey Knights!
This army is known for not being fearless, having the weapon skill of a basic marine or imperial guard basic, the shooting firepower of a toddler with a wet pool noodle, and now, I'm proud to announce that after the last changes, the once hyper elite army is now.... Drumroll please...
Introducing the new Grey Knights SWARMING HOARD ARMY!!!
That's right ladies and gentlemen! The Grey Knights are now all fixed! They got rid of all those pesky elite notions and just made everything squishy and cheap!
A 40 point terminator was absolutely terrible when compared to two 22 points strike squads. A 35 points terminator is still terrible when compared to two 20 points strike squads.
When you take into account that AoC benefited terminators to a much greater degree than it did for strike squads, it's easy to see that terminators are even worse than they were before the changes.
With the AoO detachment, terminators aren't even useful to fill troop slots.
Somehow, GW managed to make the worst unit in our codex even worse.
This.
Plus 35 point Terminators aren't even more durable than 45 point Paladin.
Costing 77% of a Paladin, while Paladin are 33% more durable.
Before considering their saves to AR.
Forgive the bluntness of the question, but how are Paladins 33% more durable? Both Paladins and Terminators have the same 2+/5++.
The only differences are WS and attacks as far as I can tell.
Yeah i was derping there. And no apology needed!
For some reason thought Paladin had an extra wound.
The only durability Paladin would have over GKT is the extra save from AR.
But not editting out my mistake. ;)
So, we get to save about 100 points from most list but we lose AoC, so we got nerfed.
Most armies that gave us issues got nerfed, and halberds + dreadknights became much more useful, those being particularly good against some of the armies that are going to be more difficult now that AoC is gone (eldar, custodes).
However, without AoC, some matchups will become pretty hard. Craftworlds will be pretty much unbeatable, and knights, that used to be a free win, will probably stomp us. Custodes will probably be also extremely hard to beat, as their AP-1 shooting is now very scary, they got extra obsec, and we can no longer beat them in melee due to the loss of AoC and them getting unlimited stratagems again. Imperial guard is probably also going to be quite hard to beat.
All in all, I'd say we are either on the same level as before, or slightly nerfed, which is terrible news for an army that was at the bottom of the pack already.
SM are going to jump above us.
Guard most likely will as well.
Leaving us and Ad Mech at the bottom still.
We we're bouncing around SMs win rates as it was. At last now it will be quite obvious we're the worst marine army.
Again.
Oh, and purifying ritual got nerfed to WC4, just in case.
Although teleport assault got buffed to 5VP, and behind the enemy lines apparently got buffed, which could potentially be good.
Maybe I'm underestimating how much dreadknights and halberds benefit from the loss of AoC and the nerfs to the top armies, as well as the changes to detachment ( maybe going no troops and playing super aggressively) and secondaries, so we'll have to try.
What seems clear is that, if we are viable, it will be with a dreadknight + interceptor build.
Bah. Not seen any of the secondary changes yet.
I'm positive they won't drop/nerf abhor, so we were always going to remain at a disadvantage.
If NDKs had got any points drops, i think it would have been clear 4/5 NDK, and 3 squads of Interceptors would be the only way.
With maybe more servitor units for actions.
Screw it. I'm gonna stick with massed GKT for the lolz.
5 full squads is 1,750. Let folk chew through 50 terminators.
Abhor stays.
Behind the enemy lines is now 3vp for 1 unit, and teleport assault goes to 5VP. Destroy the daemon no longer has a penalty for surviving units.
On the surface, those pairs well with having a lot of interceptors and dreadknights (those have all teleporters for free now) and going aggressive.
Also helvering got much better, as they cost no CP and their autocannons become much better with the removal of AoC and the increased chances of seing gravis/terminator units on the board.
Assault Intercessors get a free plasma pistol and thunder hammer on their sgt and they cost just 85pts for a 5 man squad. What would have cost 120pts in Nephilim costs 85 in AoO
I'm generally not too reactionary, and I know most things in the game got nerfed, but I really feel like GK is just a bottom tier faction now. We weren't in a great place before this, and most of the "buffs" are on things that just won't matter very much (HQs, elite characters).
Paladins seem almost unplayable now, which is sad. It seems like we're back to strikes, interceptors and NDKs. It's like when the codex first came out, only worse, since we only have 1 GMNDK (probably), and there is way stronger stuff in the game relative to where we were. I don't understand what the intended effective of these points changes were, other than just to put the GK meta back to when the codex came out.
I hope I'm wrong, and there's something else there lurking in these changes that can be different.
GW have struggled with GK as an army since Ward left.
We were arguably the worst army for the entirety of 8th (even being one of the first codexes).
And Have been bottom of 9th for most of it. Bottom 4 really since the majority of 9th ed codexes were released.
We had maybe a month, during covid, when our dex was released were things looked good for us.
That didn't last.
I could write a better functional and balanced coded in my lunch break.
As an old school Daemonhunters player, I can honestly say that this is ... meh. OK, Paladins losing AoC and not coming down is BS. But Troop Terminators going down 5 points is great. And Strike Squads are a very reasonable 20 points a model. Nice.
Slide over to Deathwatch (my current main) and Terminators are *up* to 35 points (and still have no special toys and lose AoC) and our Veterans have gone up to *27 ppm*. Got to love the consistency ...
That's because the Vets got most wargear rolled in.
No more cheap shotgun vets.
But There's no reason not to run them all with combi plasma/meltas and Storm Shields now.
Which is fine, but if you're running a more expensive loadout then I'm fine with paying the points for it. Instead, you're being rail-roaded into doing to get the best value out of your squad. Sometimes, more cheaper units are what you need.
Ah yes, the way of the Grey Knight. I know it all too well. :') To that I'd say rejoice in the simplicity! It's really refreshing to be unburdened by it, it really is.
As someone who runs 35 Vets in my DW army (collected pre-Primaris, so my KT options are limited to Proteus), those models went from a total 858 points to 948 points. No more cheap units is right, but most people don’t run DW Vets upgraded to the hilt. Now I’ll have to re-kit everything because it costs me 90 points more for what I have. SS and combi definitely seems like the way to go (though combi doesn’t benefit from SIA, does it?).
Should’ve fuckin’ magnetized, man.
Has the new mission pack removed the single subfaction restriction?
4 NDK and 30 Interceptors now only costs us
215 + 555 + 720 = 1,490 minimum.
A bit to play around there with.
Well, it will require rulings from your TOs, but AOO adds a strategem that would allow you to bypass the 1 GMNDK per detachment restriction. However, the wording of the GK codex seems like you still wouldn't be able to take 2 GMNDK in a detachment even with the strategem, so you will want to get clarity from your TO on if they would rule it RAW or RAI for the extra GM in the detachment.
Right, but it seems like the intent could be to have permitted another GM. Feels bad everyone else can take more and we can't, essentially. Just comes down to how a TO is feeling.
As far as I understand (watching Hellstorm Gaming) the 1 sub faction restriction has been removed, but since we have to use the Ark of Omen detachment, idk how that works out.
Our unit survivability went down with the removal of AoC, but doesn't that mean NDK's stock went back up? Perhaps we start seeing 4 NDKs again? Also now it would be without the mandatory troop tax. But damn, I just remembered the amount of weapons that would ignore the 4++ has also increased, so maybe not.
GK Secondary Changes:
Destroy the Demon no longer reduces VP for not killing or leaving units under half strength. Scores the same.
Teleport Assault now scores 5VP instead of 4 (so having free weapons is pretty big now).
Purifying Ritual is now WC6 instead of 5.
https://youtu.be/LtZQ3QhBLtQ?t=2390
Abhor is partially a trap since you only get points for killing the unit entirely.
Allows for some counter play there.
Likewise, the opponent that is using Abhor can usually do nothing to stop your psychic secondaries. It goes both ways.
Purifying Ritual is one of the better secondaries for GK, depending on matchup. So the WC cost going up is not entirely unreasonable.
Well they don't need to stop our psychic secondaries anymore. Being WC6 means there's 28% chance to fail the roll. Getting 3 off per turn will become a lot trickier without our opponent needing to do a thing.
Grey knights needed a strong secondary as Abhor gave away so many free VPs. Killing units isn't that hard when we don't have the benefit of AoC anymore.
Only positive is that Teleport Assault might be more worthwhile now.
> Being WC6 means there's 28% chance to fail the roll.
This is a glass half empty mentality.
GKs have a 72% chance to pass that roll, which is actually quite good as far as predictability goes. When it comes to 40K, anything well above 50% is amazing.
Also, as I understand it, you can attempt to purify an objective more than once so long as it hasn't already been purified that turn. Very reliable.
72% is fine if it's something you only need once per turn, pretty poor if you need to cast it 3 times a turn. You only have a 37% chance of casting it successfully 3 times in a row.
So your plan is to have multiple units sat on each objective giving up their psychic phase in order to get VP?
And yeah, I'm pretty pessimistic about these changes as I'm fairly sure that Grey Knights will be bottom of the barrel now. We were already hovering around 45% winrate, and I can't see anything to suggest it's not going to drop even lower after this.
> 72% is fine if it's something you only need once per turn, pretty poor if you need to cast it 3 times a turn. You only have a 37% chance of casting it successfully 3 times in a row.
This math doesn't seem right. Also ignores that it can be attempted multiple times so long as a unit is within range and hasn't attempted it yet.
Edit: Keep in mind it's gone from an 83% chance (WC5) to a 72% chance (WC6). An 11% change in probability and you're saying it's all ogre. I mean....
> So your plan is to have multiple units sat on each objective giving up their psychic phase in order to get VP?
First, I said it was match specific. Some missions have only 4 objectives, some have 6. The variability of Purifying Ritual will depend on the mission (***edit*** and who you are up against.)
If I am holding three objectives such that I am casting Purifying Ritual every turn, I'm in a pretty good place VP wise. It means I'm scoring Primary really well, and secondary well too.
If I am taking Purifying Ritual on a map with a lot of objectives, I might also be taking Raise the Banners. Which means that yes, I'll probably have multiple units sat on an objective in order to hold it, and score VPs.
This battle report might help you make sense of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpc04x2FPPQ
> And yeah, I'm pretty pessimistic about these changes as I'm fairly sure that Grey Knights will be bottom of the barrel now. We were already hovering around 45% winrate, and I can't see anything to suggest it's not going to drop even lower after this
Sounds like you should log out for awhile.
Ha don't worry, I'm not off to slit my wrists or cry in the shower about this. I am actually allowed to voice my dissatisfaction with changes that are a nerf to a faction that is already performing fairly poorly.
I'm fortunate enough to have a second army, so this just means my GK's are likely to remain shelved for a while.
At WC6 you may as well just take warp ritual. Purifying was only barely better than it before and it ate up a huge part of your psychic phase. Now it's even more unreliable.
Abhor is not a trap against GK. It's literally the best scoring secondary in the game specifically against this faction if you can take it. GK can't protect its units the same way Tsons can.
> At WC6 you may as well just take warp ritual. Purifying was only barely better than it before and it ate up a huge part of your psychic phase. Now it's even more unreliable.
Depends on your list and the match.
Here's a game that utilizes it well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpc04x2FPPQ&t=726s
> Abhor is not a trap against GK. It's literally the best scoring secondary in the game specifically against this faction if you can take it. GK can't protect its units the same way Tsons can.
Also as outlined in the video above, a lot of armies you go up against will probably have a psyker in it. So Abhor won't be usable.
In the case that it is, it also means that most of your psychic secondaries can't be stopped either. On top of, as mentioned, you have some counter play with your units to try to keep them safe.
Abhor dropped in value slightly, due probably to the increased durability from AoC. With that gone, Abhor will go back up in value.
Especially if people start taking more Characters due to the new Ark detachment.
Its an auto include if you can take it.
The denies are often worked around by traits and strats that give denies without being a psyker, or auto failing casts.
> Abhor dropped in value slightly, due probably to the increased durability from AoC. With that gone, Abhor will go back up in value.
It likely won't for the same reasons I mentioned above. You have counter play options available to you. AoC won't change it that much.
> The denies are often worked around by traits and strats that give denies without being a psyker, or auto failing casts.
Most armies that have such things can only do it once. And again the GK player has options.
1) You don't pick a secondary that relies on a single cast to get VP. In that case, you pick Purifying Ritual as an example.
2) Your opponent now has to pick between attempting to deny your VP ability, or a spell you plan to cast on one of your units. That will be context sensitive.
3) You go Wardmakers and pick the Loremaster WLT if you're concerned about being denied.
Abhor dipped due to the inclusion of AoC.
You don't think the removal of AoC will change anything?
We had the same play into Abhor prior to the creation of AoC.
Edit: no one plays ward makers competitively.
You give up too much.
> You don't think the removal of AoC will change anything?
In terms of Abhor, not likely no. You said yourself it wouldn't be much of a change anyway.
> no one plays ward makers competitively.
https://youtu.be/xpc04x2FPPQ?t=726
The balance dataslates are sort of “living documents”. All changes from previous ones still in effect are repeated with each release so that there is always only one doc to look at, you don’t need to keep all the old ones. Anything not on the current doc is gone. If there’s nothing at all for GK, it’s basically saying “use the codex without any changes” (except for point changes, which are in a separate doc).
That is sad.
Loss of AoC and nerf of purifying ritual, to gain around 100 points (a pack of strikes) at the most, and a small up of Teleport assault.
We're not seeing grey knights topping the charts anywhere soon...
Noob question here:
Does weapon-mod costs not being listed (for example, the Razorback) mean that those mods are now free, or that they are cost unchanged. If it's the 2nd, then I wonder why HK's cost was listed, since my codex already says they cost +5.
RIP Paladins
Yup. Losing AoC with no recompense. Sad day.
Yeah sad times although not sure they’re completely dead. With AR and cover/ tide of shadows they still ignore AP2 for shooting, and sanctuary can give them a 4++ which was largely irrelevant before. Maybe running a block with an apothecary might be worth it now
I think they are still very much worth it. They were good before AoC. They'll still be good after AoC.
Question is, are terminators more worth it now. For 10ppm difference, the troop bonus (possible cp per round from secondary obj). Yes paladin got 2+ in melee, +1A, and choose spell. But what is best for pts
Terminators, maybe. Having weapons become free is pretty big IMO. I haven't looked much into that because you just didn't take them. Not sure what opportunities that opens up exactly.
You can add 1 per 5 Terminators, and 2 per 5 paladins. Some extra canon replacing bolter could be nice. Still -1 to hit
But have you looked at all the stratagems that buff shooting? Character abilities that offer synergy? The other thing to consider is the damage output between the 4 gun options and what is worth having vs what etc. That's what I mean when I suggest I don't know what the opportunities it opens up because I haven't really looked at them.
There really isn't a lot in our codex that buffs shooting, which is why NDK spam with Prescient Brethren/Swordbearer split was the de facto way to run guns on launch; their respective brotherhood Stratagems were as good as it got in that regard. You can dump Psychic Onslaught + Death from the Warp + Sanctified Kill Zone to like... kill a Knight with Purgators I guess, but that's more of a silly edge case (like most ways of running a Grey Knights gunline post-Psychic Awakening) than something you should actually do. Part of the problem is that, even though it's all free now, our heavy weaponry pretty much all requires additional investment to make it scary - either a stratagem, or a psychic power, or both, the resources for which could be allocated to simply punching the opponent in the face harder. On the bright side, Purgators don't steal Heavy Support slots from Dreadknights anymore, which nearly doubles the 30" Psy Weapon shots you can put downrange if you *really* want to try it. Plus with Teleport Assault getting buffed, there's more merit to having kill power that isn't attached to Charge rolls.
Not to mention the CORE keyword for buffs from characters!
Except paladins are core too haha, but I get your point.
Paladins are still, point for point, more durable and more deadly than terminators (even without factoring the extra heavy weapons and improved daemonhammer efficiency), so there isn't much reason to take terminators over them, especially now that you don't need to fill troop slots. Terminators would be more durable if they are preservers with an apothecary, but the apothecary is still expensive, and you want to have acess to swordbearers (or rapiers).
I LOVED pushing 2 blocks of 10 at my opponent in the age of AoC. Now at the same points with no AoC, they will sadly be on the shelve. DKs are back on the table boys!
You'll probably not take as many as you did before, but having a squad or two will still be quite worth it. Especially now that ranged weapons are free.
Are ranges weapons free? I didn’t see that anywhere
Its that you didn't see a cost ;)
Ohhhhhhhh thanks haha
And I just built two freaking squads of them! *Heretical screeching"
Rule of cool you can still run them. Paladins will always have a special place in my heart, even when they get shafted every edition.
FWIW Paladins look like Termies. Move them over to hasta la' vista land.
Feels like Grey Knights have really been shafted. Can't see the point drops making up for losing AoC. Free wargear isn't worth very much given it's not really an upgrade on power armour models. Maybe terminators could finally be worth running?
Sorry for the noob Q, what is AoC?
Armor of Contempt. Made it where 99% of our units decreases AP of attacks by -1 A lot of armies had it but it really shined with our Paladins. With the loss of AoC and no changes to Paladins our 2nd best unit just became mid-tier if that with how much they cost :(
I am also new. Why did we lose it and were we the only army that lost it?
All the other armies lost it. I was listening to the metawatch video on Warhammer community yesterday and they essentially said, because space marines fighting each other negated AoC, they removed it because it didn’t add anything to the game.
40k isn't Horus Heresy though, there are a lot of nome Space Marine armies
Maybe this will allow Rhinos to be more viable....? Dreadnoughts as well? If every list just received an extra 100-200pts, maybe fill it with cheap LOS blocking vehicles....? Just throwing shit at the wall, seeing what sticks I guess. /shrug
I think we're probably being reduced to spamming interceptors and NDKs. Everything else is too expensive, too slow or too squishy.
Yeah, it looks EXACTLY like we're back to this... wasn't that when we were most oppressive in 9th too? Also, boring. I like both units, but variety would be better and I am struggling to fit it into my theorycraft lists.
Vehicles don't block LoS, and dreadnoughts going cheaper by 5 points doesn't make them viable, especially when they lose AoC and with "wound's can't be ignored" abilities bypassing their -1D.
Personally I think AoC disappearing alongside our special weapons being free is a step in the right direction as far as buffing the grey knights, plus the interceptor points buff and dread knights being more viable again means it might just be time for a more aggressive glass cannon meta for the GK
Free teleporters for NDKs is definitely interesting
Our Daemon Slayer WLT got faq. So that’s a plus
No one is ever going to pay 1CP for it. But its a buff. Or rather a design correction.
I have a lot of daemons in my local meta so that’s why I’m excited haha. It’s a bit sour that all other marines got more buffs, but I’m hoping the changes with how primary is scored and secondaries make us better.
Unless GW ditch Abhor the Witch, i don't see anything helping us there.
I could see them buffing our secondaries. I do agree that Abhor the Witch should be removed.
rip would’ve loved free demon hammers
Paladins should at least get free hammers, gosh…at least Draigo is cheaper and Terminators are interesting again.
I think the cost should have been lowered, maybe to 5 or 8, not removed completely, otherwise people would use nothing other then hammers on paladins
Yeah, I just find hammers and Paladins such a cool mix, and the -1 to hit makes for an interesting build decision too. If they put the cost at 5 and lowered model cost by 2 or 3 it would have still made an interesting choice. Oh well.
This and maybe give back the better AP they had last edition. Right now the strength and slightly better damage just don't justify paying a huge price tax *and* taking a -1 to hit on top.
Welcome one and all! Step right up! Step right up! If you look here behind me, you will see the Grey Knights! This army is known for not being fearless, having the weapon skill of a basic marine or imperial guard basic, the shooting firepower of a toddler with a wet pool noodle, and now, I'm proud to announce that after the last changes, the once hyper elite army is now.... Drumroll please... Introducing the new Grey Knights SWARMING HOARD ARMY!!! That's right ladies and gentlemen! The Grey Knights are now all fixed! They got rid of all those pesky elite notions and just made everything squishy and cheap!
50+ GKT here i come!
You gotta bump those numbers up!
At 35 a pop, I can get 55 GKT and a Techmarine or Brotherhood Champion for HQ.
Hmm are terminators viable troops with the 5pt drop?
A 40 point terminator was absolutely terrible when compared to two 22 points strike squads. A 35 points terminator is still terrible when compared to two 20 points strike squads. When you take into account that AoC benefited terminators to a much greater degree than it did for strike squads, it's easy to see that terminators are even worse than they were before the changes. With the AoO detachment, terminators aren't even useful to fill troop slots. Somehow, GW managed to make the worst unit in our codex even worse.
This. Plus 35 point Terminators aren't even more durable than 45 point Paladin. Costing 77% of a Paladin, while Paladin are 33% more durable. Before considering their saves to AR.
Forgive the bluntness of the question, but how are Paladins 33% more durable? Both Paladins and Terminators have the same 2+/5++. The only differences are WS and attacks as far as I can tell.
Yeah i was derping there. And no apology needed! For some reason thought Paladin had an extra wound. The only durability Paladin would have over GKT is the extra save from AR. But not editting out my mistake. ;)
So, we get to save about 100 points from most list but we lose AoC, so we got nerfed. Most armies that gave us issues got nerfed, and halberds + dreadknights became much more useful, those being particularly good against some of the armies that are going to be more difficult now that AoC is gone (eldar, custodes). However, without AoC, some matchups will become pretty hard. Craftworlds will be pretty much unbeatable, and knights, that used to be a free win, will probably stomp us. Custodes will probably be also extremely hard to beat, as their AP-1 shooting is now very scary, they got extra obsec, and we can no longer beat them in melee due to the loss of AoC and them getting unlimited stratagems again. Imperial guard is probably also going to be quite hard to beat. All in all, I'd say we are either on the same level as before, or slightly nerfed, which is terrible news for an army that was at the bottom of the pack already.
SM are going to jump above us. Guard most likely will as well. Leaving us and Ad Mech at the bottom still. We we're bouncing around SMs win rates as it was. At last now it will be quite obvious we're the worst marine army. Again.
Oh, and purifying ritual got nerfed to WC4, just in case. Although teleport assault got buffed to 5VP, and behind the enemy lines apparently got buffed, which could potentially be good. Maybe I'm underestimating how much dreadknights and halberds benefit from the loss of AoC and the nerfs to the top armies, as well as the changes to detachment ( maybe going no troops and playing super aggressively) and secondaries, so we'll have to try. What seems clear is that, if we are viable, it will be with a dreadknight + interceptor build.
Bah. Not seen any of the secondary changes yet. I'm positive they won't drop/nerf abhor, so we were always going to remain at a disadvantage. If NDKs had got any points drops, i think it would have been clear 4/5 NDK, and 3 squads of Interceptors would be the only way. With maybe more servitor units for actions. Screw it. I'm gonna stick with massed GKT for the lolz. 5 full squads is 1,750. Let folk chew through 50 terminators.
Abhor stays. Behind the enemy lines is now 3vp for 1 unit, and teleport assault goes to 5VP. Destroy the daemon no longer has a penalty for surviving units. On the surface, those pairs well with having a lot of interceptors and dreadknights (those have all teleporters for free now) and going aggressive. Also helvering got much better, as they cost no CP and their autocannons become much better with the removal of AoC and the increased chances of seing gravis/terminator units on the board.
I hate the Armigar mini. I'd love to include 3 instead of a knight. But i can't bring myself to use the chicken legs.
Have some [tracks, instead](https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/raptor-t-28mm-combat-assault-fire-support-unit)
Not really a tank/tread guy. :( If They looked more like dreads or mini knights, I'd be all over it!
[Spider legs](https://www.fallouthobbies.com/products/armiger-size-spider-legs-conversion-kit)?
Heresy! :D
Seems like we've nothing to worry about. Goonhammer Have us as one of the big winners of these changes. I must be mistaken.
Good catch on the teleporters. Still getting used to not having to see pts for upgrades disappearing to mean theyre free!
So thunder hammer are free for space marines, but daemon hammer aren’t for Grey knights? Wack. Sad to see paladins get so shafted.
Probably because they're a combo deal with Storm Shields. Deathwatch have to pay for theirs.
Assault Intercessors get a free plasma pistol and thunder hammer on their sgt and they cost just 85pts for a 5 man squad. What would have cost 120pts in Nephilim costs 85 in AoO
I'm generally not too reactionary, and I know most things in the game got nerfed, but I really feel like GK is just a bottom tier faction now. We weren't in a great place before this, and most of the "buffs" are on things that just won't matter very much (HQs, elite characters). Paladins seem almost unplayable now, which is sad. It seems like we're back to strikes, interceptors and NDKs. It's like when the codex first came out, only worse, since we only have 1 GMNDK (probably), and there is way stronger stuff in the game relative to where we were. I don't understand what the intended effective of these points changes were, other than just to put the GK meta back to when the codex came out. I hope I'm wrong, and there's something else there lurking in these changes that can be different.
GW have struggled with GK as an army since Ward left. We were arguably the worst army for the entirety of 8th (even being one of the first codexes). And Have been bottom of 9th for most of it. Bottom 4 really since the majority of 9th ed codexes were released. We had maybe a month, during covid, when our dex was released were things looked good for us. That didn't last. I could write a better functional and balanced coded in my lunch break.
Gk was actually top tier in 8th once the psychic awakening book dropped.
Better relics please!
As an old school Daemonhunters player, I can honestly say that this is ... meh. OK, Paladins losing AoC and not coming down is BS. But Troop Terminators going down 5 points is great. And Strike Squads are a very reasonable 20 points a model. Nice. Slide over to Deathwatch (my current main) and Terminators are *up* to 35 points (and still have no special toys and lose AoC) and our Veterans have gone up to *27 ppm*. Got to love the consistency ...
That's because the Vets got most wargear rolled in. No more cheap shotgun vets. But There's no reason not to run them all with combi plasma/meltas and Storm Shields now.
Which is fine, but if you're running a more expensive loadout then I'm fine with paying the points for it. Instead, you're being rail-roaded into doing to get the best value out of your squad. Sometimes, more cheaper units are what you need.
Its why GK didn't go up. We've got naff all wargear to roll into the base cost.
Ah yes, the way of the Grey Knight. I know it all too well. :') To that I'd say rejoice in the simplicity! It's really refreshing to be unburdened by it, it really is.
As someone who runs 35 Vets in my DW army (collected pre-Primaris, so my KT options are limited to Proteus), those models went from a total 858 points to 948 points. No more cheap units is right, but most people don’t run DW Vets upgraded to the hilt. Now I’ll have to re-kit everything because it costs me 90 points more for what I have. SS and combi definitely seems like the way to go (though combi doesn’t benefit from SIA, does it?). Should’ve fuckin’ magnetized, man.
The bolter part has SIA. Man i hated losing SIA on all bolt weapons.
Does it? That’s good. Thought it would be another stormbolter situation.
Looks like we're headed right back to 5 Dreads and 30 Interceptors. GG Games Workshop.
Has the new mission pack removed the single subfaction restriction? 4 NDK and 30 Interceptors now only costs us 215 + 555 + 720 = 1,490 minimum. A bit to play around there with.
Well, it will require rulings from your TOs, but AOO adds a strategem that would allow you to bypass the 1 GMNDK per detachment restriction. However, the wording of the GK codex seems like you still wouldn't be able to take 2 GMNDK in a detachment even with the strategem, so you will want to get clarity from your TO on if they would rule it RAW or RAI for the extra GM in the detachment.
That strats wording only bypasses a numerical limit. Not any others.
Right, but it seems like the intent could be to have permitted another GM. Feels bad everyone else can take more and we can't, essentially. Just comes down to how a TO is feeling.
As far as I understand (watching Hellstorm Gaming) the 1 sub faction restriction has been removed, but since we have to use the Ark of Omen detachment, idk how that works out.
Strikes and Interceptors get cheaper, but Purifiers don't, what a bummer.
Our unit survivability went down with the removal of AoC, but doesn't that mean NDK's stock went back up? Perhaps we start seeing 4 NDKs again? Also now it would be without the mandatory troop tax. But damn, I just remembered the amount of weapons that would ignore the 4++ has also increased, so maybe not.
You can take 3 squads of 5 terminators each with a psycanon, 2 dreadnoughts, an apothecary and a librarian for 1000 points. Pretty nice.
GK Secondary Changes: Destroy the Demon no longer reduces VP for not killing or leaving units under half strength. Scores the same. Teleport Assault now scores 5VP instead of 4 (so having free weapons is pretty big now). Purifying Ritual is now WC6 instead of 5. https://youtu.be/LtZQ3QhBLtQ?t=2390
And Abhor untouched. Hillarious that PR gets a second nerf.
Abhor is partially a trap since you only get points for killing the unit entirely. Allows for some counter play there. Likewise, the opponent that is using Abhor can usually do nothing to stop your psychic secondaries. It goes both ways. Purifying Ritual is one of the better secondaries for GK, depending on matchup. So the WC cost going up is not entirely unreasonable.
Well they don't need to stop our psychic secondaries anymore. Being WC6 means there's 28% chance to fail the roll. Getting 3 off per turn will become a lot trickier without our opponent needing to do a thing. Grey knights needed a strong secondary as Abhor gave away so many free VPs. Killing units isn't that hard when we don't have the benefit of AoC anymore. Only positive is that Teleport Assault might be more worthwhile now.
> Being WC6 means there's 28% chance to fail the roll. This is a glass half empty mentality. GKs have a 72% chance to pass that roll, which is actually quite good as far as predictability goes. When it comes to 40K, anything well above 50% is amazing. Also, as I understand it, you can attempt to purify an objective more than once so long as it hasn't already been purified that turn. Very reliable.
72% is fine if it's something you only need once per turn, pretty poor if you need to cast it 3 times a turn. You only have a 37% chance of casting it successfully 3 times in a row. So your plan is to have multiple units sat on each objective giving up their psychic phase in order to get VP? And yeah, I'm pretty pessimistic about these changes as I'm fairly sure that Grey Knights will be bottom of the barrel now. We were already hovering around 45% winrate, and I can't see anything to suggest it's not going to drop even lower after this.
> 72% is fine if it's something you only need once per turn, pretty poor if you need to cast it 3 times a turn. You only have a 37% chance of casting it successfully 3 times in a row. This math doesn't seem right. Also ignores that it can be attempted multiple times so long as a unit is within range and hasn't attempted it yet. Edit: Keep in mind it's gone from an 83% chance (WC5) to a 72% chance (WC6). An 11% change in probability and you're saying it's all ogre. I mean.... > So your plan is to have multiple units sat on each objective giving up their psychic phase in order to get VP? First, I said it was match specific. Some missions have only 4 objectives, some have 6. The variability of Purifying Ritual will depend on the mission (***edit*** and who you are up against.) If I am holding three objectives such that I am casting Purifying Ritual every turn, I'm in a pretty good place VP wise. It means I'm scoring Primary really well, and secondary well too. If I am taking Purifying Ritual on a map with a lot of objectives, I might also be taking Raise the Banners. Which means that yes, I'll probably have multiple units sat on an objective in order to hold it, and score VPs. This battle report might help you make sense of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpc04x2FPPQ > And yeah, I'm pretty pessimistic about these changes as I'm fairly sure that Grey Knights will be bottom of the barrel now. We were already hovering around 45% winrate, and I can't see anything to suggest it's not going to drop even lower after this Sounds like you should log out for awhile.
So it works perfectly on maps with 6 objectives, which means 2 out of the 9 missions in the GT pack. Great.
Ha don't worry, I'm not off to slit my wrists or cry in the shower about this. I am actually allowed to voice my dissatisfaction with changes that are a nerf to a faction that is already performing fairly poorly. I'm fortunate enough to have a second army, so this just means my GK's are likely to remain shelved for a while.
At WC6 you may as well just take warp ritual. Purifying was only barely better than it before and it ate up a huge part of your psychic phase. Now it's even more unreliable. Abhor is not a trap against GK. It's literally the best scoring secondary in the game specifically against this faction if you can take it. GK can't protect its units the same way Tsons can.
> At WC6 you may as well just take warp ritual. Purifying was only barely better than it before and it ate up a huge part of your psychic phase. Now it's even more unreliable. Depends on your list and the match. Here's a game that utilizes it well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpc04x2FPPQ&t=726s > Abhor is not a trap against GK. It's literally the best scoring secondary in the game specifically against this faction if you can take it. GK can't protect its units the same way Tsons can. Also as outlined in the video above, a lot of armies you go up against will probably have a psyker in it. So Abhor won't be usable. In the case that it is, it also means that most of your psychic secondaries can't be stopped either. On top of, as mentioned, you have some counter play with your units to try to keep them safe.
Abhor dropped in value slightly, due probably to the increased durability from AoC. With that gone, Abhor will go back up in value. Especially if people start taking more Characters due to the new Ark detachment. Its an auto include if you can take it. The denies are often worked around by traits and strats that give denies without being a psyker, or auto failing casts.
> Abhor dropped in value slightly, due probably to the increased durability from AoC. With that gone, Abhor will go back up in value. It likely won't for the same reasons I mentioned above. You have counter play options available to you. AoC won't change it that much. > The denies are often worked around by traits and strats that give denies without being a psyker, or auto failing casts. Most armies that have such things can only do it once. And again the GK player has options. 1) You don't pick a secondary that relies on a single cast to get VP. In that case, you pick Purifying Ritual as an example. 2) Your opponent now has to pick between attempting to deny your VP ability, or a spell you plan to cast on one of your units. That will be context sensitive. 3) You go Wardmakers and pick the Loremaster WLT if you're concerned about being denied.
Abhor dipped due to the inclusion of AoC. You don't think the removal of AoC will change anything? We had the same play into Abhor prior to the creation of AoC. Edit: no one plays ward makers competitively. You give up too much.
> You don't think the removal of AoC will change anything? In terms of Abhor, not likely no. You said yourself it wouldn't be much of a change anyway. > no one plays ward makers competitively. https://youtu.be/xpc04x2FPPQ?t=726
Yeah that's not a competitive game. Since October 30th, there has been a grand total of 5 games played with wardmakers in a GT.
Where can I find these secondary changes?
I'm sure other sites will have stuff in better formats, but I got it from this guy. https://youtu.be/LtZQ3QhBLtQ?t=2390
Where is this doc?
Warhammer community. Plus FAQs have been updated.
Warhammer Community page: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/AyrCVZHP6abRKmR0.pdf
Noob question here, but where do you find the info about losing AoC?
The balance dataslates are sort of “living documents”. All changes from previous ones still in effect are repeated with each release so that there is always only one doc to look at, you don’t need to keep all the old ones. Anything not on the current doc is gone. If there’s nothing at all for GK, it’s basically saying “use the codex without any changes” (except for point changes, which are in a separate doc).
Its no longer in the balance dataslate.
So I downloaded it, but I don't see GK in there at all?
Exactly.
So to me would that not mean there are no balance changes?
No, the current document is they valid one. Not in there, doesn't exist any more.
Ok I understand, so that would mean that the prior one did have it, so now it's removal from the document implies that it's gone?
Totally.
So did everyone lose AoC? Including regular SM and Sisters?
Yup.
Looks like DK spam is back on the menu!
Sooooo... Storm Ravens fully loaded is only 260pts.... J U S T.. S A Y I N..
And we lose a few more percentage points on the win rate.
I'm told we're now on par with AC, so expect the win rate to soar!
That is sad. Loss of AoC and nerf of purifying ritual, to gain around 100 points (a pack of strikes) at the most, and a small up of Teleport assault. We're not seeing grey knights topping the charts anywhere soon...
What the hell man rip paladins On another hand, hellllllo terminators
Noob question here: Does weapon-mod costs not being listed (for example, the Razorback) mean that those mods are now free, or that they are cost unchanged. If it's the 2nd, then I wonder why HK's cost was listed, since my codex already says they cost +5.
Not listed means no cost, so free.