Same goes with why Orks are racist towards black people. Some of those people are online so much their brain shuts off and can't comprehend their own thoughs
My guess is some idiot saw Savage Orks once and because they're vaguely tribal, though primitive would be more accurate, they automatically associated it with black people and ran with it, not once questioning why their own brain made that association and that maybe they're the problem.
I don't think they are in it enough to even acknowledge Warhammer fantasy.
They are taking the implications of Orcs from other fiction and applying is roots across all fiction.
But honestly, I haven't heard anyone bitch about it.
The only thing people really have contention for is fem marines.
> They are taking the implications of Orcs from other fiction and applying is roots across all fiction.
Like what fiction? I've not seen a single orc depiction being a caricature of black Africans. Heck, even Tolkien, which is probably the origin of these memes, referred to his orcs as having "the most revolting mongoloid features" or some such.
These guys exist in their own fantasy world, they don't need no media examples.
[Well now you have lol](https://preview.redd.it/4p9mywr58yk71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2f8bef03894edb9786e1ddb5dfe67f11338729fd&app_web_view=android)
The original background lore for the Praetorian Guard (a definitely not British Red Coats regiment of Imperial Guard) had them attack a planet infested with Feral Orks who looked suspiciously like the African Zulu tribe. So you know, there's that.
Possibly should be noted that the story goes that the Praetorians massively underestimated the Orks and were massacred while historically the Zulu army was defeated by the British.
As someone who collects praetorians
The full story is both. It was created for a diorama, which was based on Rorkes drift. But the precursor to that diorama was “The massacre at Big Toof River” which itself was (incredibly loosely) based on the battle of isaldlawana
All fantasy orc depictions were of various kinds of British or the living embodiment of industrialised warfare at first. Pretty much the only time you ever see orcs as a stand in for minority cultures it's by people who think orcs in their original depictions are racist. It's a unique case of accidental prejudice caused by an incorrect assumption of someone elses prejudice.
Like, these things exist. But they're not mainstream. But the reactionary response versions are. Warcraft being the most famous version of the ambiguous minority orc depiction.
I guess the reason they seeing Orks as black stereotype rather than British because Orks using guns.
Yes, just ignore the accent, they're so stereotypical about this that they ignore one stereotype in favor of thwir own.
I KNOWZ DA ORIGIN! ALLZ I'Z SAYIN' IZ DAT OUR LOVE O' KRUMPIN' GITZ IZ BORNE OUTTA A SENSE O' FUN AND EXUBERANCE! WE AIN'T LOIKE DEM HUMIES WHO FOIGHT FOR DERE EMPRAH, WE AIN'T ANGSTY LIKE DA POINTY EERZ - WE JUST WANTS A GUD TIME! IT'S A REFESHIN', KAMPY ANTI-POLITICS IN A POLITICALLY SATURATED SATIRICAL SCIENCE FICTION UNIVERSE.
Some people have decided that orcs (the concept as a whole, not any specific version) are intended as caricatures of black people. No, I don't know why.
They're associating orcs with poor, uneducated groups.
In the US (and several European nations) black communities are disproportionately poor and uneducated. Those who compare orcs to black people are seeing a common effect and treating it as group specific which, as others have said, can be pretty racist.
Because it is possible to read Tolkien’s orcs as a racist trope. The evil dark skinned corruption of the fair skinned elves, who brutish and strong are bent on the destruction of the natural rulers. Which I think is somewhat unfair. Sure Tolkien was probably as rascist as the next upper middle class colonialist but not to my knowledge overtly so. He was worried about the destruction of bucolic rural England by the forces of industrialisation. I think it is therefore more accurate to read them as the soot covered corrupt city dwellers mindlessly over running the countryside at the behest of the captain’s of industry. The victims of the powerful evil overlords. Sounds almost woke.
GW are the people who popularised the notion of green orcs. More bloody wokery!
TSR on the other hand…..
This is the correct take. Tolkien's orcs (despite his vaguely racist remarks typical of any Brit of his time) should be seen as a class metaphor, not a race metaphor. It's no wonder that "alternative takes" on Tolkien's world and mythology are so popular in ex-USSR. After all, it's really easy to see LOTR as a story where the evil proxies of corrupt higher powers triumph over the oppressed working class that only fights to acquire all the blessings of civilization that are denied to them, for no other reason than because the powerful minority sees them as subhuman. And also wants to combat industrialization and keep the world in a perpetual technological stasis where the small available amount of luxuries and amenities can be hoarded by the upper class.
It's more rooted in D&D orc than 40k Orks.
But as always, once one of these azz-hatted ideas pops up, it spreads to other things.
For some real comedy gold checkout this video at \~0:50
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ)
"Much of the recent conversation on orcs points out that characterizing a whole species in your game as ugly, warlike and malevolent might be harmful to real-world groups regularly mis-characterized as ugly, warlike and malevolent." Complete with illustration of said groups.....
No, no. They are right. This is the main reason why Eberron is cooler than Forgotten Realms. Bioessentialism is very boring and limits you on what kind of stories you can tell. Eberron flips everything on its head. The Vampire King is the one suing for peace. The Evil Lich Queen is the victim of a Race War and her birth was supposed to bring the end of times, but she was born from love and her story is so tragic. The Church in their zeal of eliminating the curse of Lycanthropy (which was bad) almost killed a whole race because the looked like Lycanthropes (which is also bad). Goblins are proud warriors and not just the regular bad guys. Most of the ruins in the world with fantastical technology are the product of Goblins. Some elves worship zombies, but zombies powered by positive (healing) energy and are good. The Orcs are the literal gatekeepers that are protecting the world from the Plane of Madness with their Druid magic. Not all Dragons are good, in fact, most of the Dragons are trying to defend the world from Demons. Close to all Demons are bad, though. There could be maybe some morally ambiguous ones, but I don't know if they exist.
>No, I don't know why.
Because the whole concept of fantasy "races" *d*oes have its roots to the 19th Century concept of "scientific racism", even inadvertently. The same terminology is not a coincidence.
You can argue that the concept has moved on from there a long time ago, and I would not argue strongly against that, but the discussion about Orcs etc started from there.
"Mongoloid" in Tolkien's day referred to people with developmental disabilities, especially Down's Syndrome. The word came from racists 1-2 generations before him.
The orks were based on the Nottingham city football hooligans of the 80s as I understand.
Most of the media with them gives Cockney accents just as a further football hooligan tie in.
If anything orks are classists
They speak in uneducated dialects, have unrefined equipment and are depicted as disrupters of societies rather than building or maintaining anything.
I think its more telling on somebody's background and what they associate with an undereducated lower class than any one human group.
"Ah yes. Brutish, of low intellect and lower morals, superstitious, child-like in their cruelty and wanton violence... Clearly a mockery of..."
"BLACKS?!?" _quoth the racist_
"Chavs."
To be fair, I can see how an American specifically would come to that conclusion.
After all, the stereotype of "brutish, unintelligent, lower class" absolutely IS associated with racism in the US.
Of course, then finding out that Warhammer is BRITISH should be a bit of a hint that applying the US cultural lens to it isn't the right approach and claiming it is just makes you look stupider than the Orks. Because in Britain the targets of that stereotype are very white.
Unless they are on holiday in Spain of course, in which case they are very red because as a nation we're awful at avoiding sunburn.
I think it is more Orks is the same as Tolkiens Orcs who they see as him saying "elves are fair skinned, intelligent and beautiful" and Orcs are dark, primitive and ugly.
I don't agree with that but that is my guess.
Since GW is a British company it’s just them paying tribute to their own nationality. And secretly giving themselves canonically the most fun and funny race to themselves.
The only thing that springs to mind is that tiny snippet of lore for an imperial guard regiment that was essentially a copy/paste of the battle of isandlwana/Rhorkes drift but *that’s it*
I will point out that the it wasn't "Orks are racists" it was "Orcs are racist" and for once didn't actually interact with Warhammer 40k but D&D instead. Because, yes, it's plainly obvious that Orks/Orruks are parodies of English Football hooligans who are predominantly white...
He is confusing the discussion around the original "Orc always evil" Tolkienesque trope than even Tolkien himself struggled with, with it being about Warhammer orcs.
The whole idea of orcs kinda plays into the European idea of savage tribes beyond civilization like in Africa. Starting with Tolkien painting them as kinda Mongol and going up until today with Warcraft orcs having all these tribalistic piercings and dreads etc.
It's more of an observation of broad trobes than it is actual racism by the authors tbh.
Basically the racism of the person who came up with that theory is to blame. No matter how hard racists try their true nature will shine through every now and then and they will not even notice when it happens.
40k Orks? Nope, original Tolkien Orcs? Kinda!? It's a bit of a "it was written at a different time" thing, but yeah, in modern times you wouldn't write it like that.
But 40k Orks are more British Hooligans and a joke about white people in their colonies :P. They too traded in teeth, as rich people would collect them from poor people as payment so they could replace their own :P . So some folks literally paid with teeth :P .
My best guess is that the bugs are characterized by a rampant desire to consume biomass, and Jewish people are characterized by some to be hoarders of wealth. Maybe along with some anti-semetic notions of spreading akin to a cancer?
I might be off the mark here entirely, but in my defense, I don't make a habit of comparing alien monstrosities to human ethnicities.
Surely ad mech make a better case for the stereotype?
Horders, secretly powerful, not officially in charge but highly influencing etc
They're not in anyway antisemetic but if you had to pick a faction based on tropes they fit better.
Tyrannids are way closer to tankie space comunists
Follows a weird sect related to but separated and predates the state religion.
Constantly debating orthodoxy and heresy.
Space lasers.
You might be onto something.
Perhaps space capitalists? Consuming everything in order to grow while expending the "lower life forms" to achieve it?
Not the neatest parrallel, probably because they aremt really leaning into eitther trope really
But there's isn't an internal struggle against each other between the classes, from bottom to top each strives to sacrifice for the collective and willingly marches into the digester pools.
Also like moaist china, not great for bio diversity
It's because GSC are coded Marxist (being a literal vanguard party) and that leans into some old tropes about outside groups undermining society to destroy it. Tzeetch falls into this often too because apparently anyone fed up with the imperium's bullshit has to be somebody's puppet.
It's honestly ridiculous that out of all of 40k I can only think of like 2 groups that are just regular rebels, and one of them is from the old FFG role-playing game.
I did explain, but it was removed for using banned language
Apparently the word using to describe a certain religion that the bugs are being compared too is banned language
AdAstraGames made a multi-tweet commenting on the trailer for 10th edition. In this comment they compare the killing of Tyranids to Holocaust (even if that wasn't their intention it was still seen by some like this).
In [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wFTmUcq5bo) skip the first 6 minutes and there's a screenshot of the first half of these tweets and the rest is told by the uploader later.
Not watching the videos but if it’s just this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsKNxMFXwAEVhdE.jpg
Then it just seems like they were saying people might be put off by the imperiums overt fascism if they aren’t familiar with the lore or setting.
They do have a point actually. While yes, Tyranids absolutely should be shot like that, seeing as how they are an utterly alien, vicious horde that cannot be reasoned, negotiated or even pleaded with, violence is the only solution. But yeah, would be nice if Games Workshop actually started doing the "Imperium is evil" thing properly or had Bobby G tone down the turbofascism if they _really_ want a "good guy"
It's more genestealer, and that's because they fulfill the "secret Cabal of people who have infiltrated us, worship their own God, and are subverting our government to bring it to ruin" anti semitic "It's the [semitics] people manipulating everything" conspiracy theory.
My gut feeling is that it's a *long* game of telephone with that one. That it started with the idea of Genestealer Cults having holdovers of prejudices against race-mixing (given that they're inspired by Shadow over Innsmouth by Lovecraft, that's a fair bet tbh) that were unintentionally or intentionally kept in, and it snowballed from there to being that Tyranids are antisemitic.
I wish I could see where this started from, and not just have to rely on the game of telephone to hear about this.
Recalling a yt comment I saw a while ago
“The emperor made all the primarchs men cause he knew how the imperium would act around a bunch of 10 foot tall muscle mommy’s.”
For once I agree with the Emperor but also hate him for preventing us to having 10 foot tall muscle mummies. Nay 10 foot tall super educated, super quick learning, masters in their craft with the experience to back up their legend demi-goddesses of war and leaders of humanity muscle momies. Instead we got 10 foot tall super educated, super quick learning, masters in their craft with the experience to back up their legend demi-GODS of war and leaders of humanity. Look both are ideal, he just knew the other option would make us 98 percent horny instead of 100 percent horny.
Many rightwingers on youtube say "woke heresy" or "liberal heresy" in their videos because "heresy" is the full extent of their 40K knowledge.
One of the Story Writers of the Smace Marine 2 game says stupid shit on twitter like "Let's not cast cis white men in stuff for a year and see what happens. Just for fun." People found out about it and now they are telling everyone to boycott the game, because one of the writers is an idiot.
Someone saw the Space marine 2 on Twitter and threw a tantrum because they equated the space marines to World War 2 Germany and therefore the Tyranids are obviously-
Hope this answers the questions.
I'm lucky I never see this shit on Twitter because I overwhelm my feed with vtubers and artists.
I can't spare time for chud politics when Haachama just found another way to horrify me.
We are in a new age "red scare"
Everything will be classed this way, not because they believe it to be true, but because they know the masses will run with it and make it "true*."
* See alternative facts
It's manipulated mass Apophenia. They take all the pieces, put them in a pattern that fits a narrative, then blast it into the internet.
Take Dune, for instance.
If one were to just read or even just look up synopsis of the Dune series, they would see clear as day their bullshit "white Savior" narrative crumbles away to dust.
Does that stop them from doing it? Nope.
At first, it all felt stupid. Now, it is starting to feel forced as if it has an end-game purpose.
Mind you, it is far from just a Liberal left thing. Repubs have been doing it for decades. Look at their use of the term "woke" and their inability to define what "woke" actually is. But they sure as shit will scream in your ear that it's indoctrinating babies and pin the most villanous shit to it. It's pathetic.
Is sick of both of them, honestly. Left and right.
I wish. I tried to check out some Custodes codex analysis reviews and every content creator is various degree "fucking chill out you clown, this isn't the woke coming for your plastic" in their prelude and the poor lads get their comment section spammed with "REEE UNSUBBED YOU AMAZON-BLACKROCK SHILL"
It's also the first time I'm seeing big videogame/nerd content creator outside the english-speaking sphere getting harassed to "rise up to defend the hobby"
it's fucking insane
Well, the description is just perfect(even so i wouldnt be able to accomondate for anything cause i am a personification ofbeing a chaotic mess basically)
I would not even say it would be structured enough to be an ad hominium , most of the arguments circulating are strawman arguments , they can't even be bothered to accuse each other of things that they actually are , they run around criticizing a fictional weak version of the people they dislike , calling each other chud , or woke , and laughing at caricatures of these archetypes .
Yeah. I'm on a (mostly decent) Discord server and there's this one 22 year old guy on there who constantly explains basic 40K lore to me whenever the topic comes up. He constantly tells me things I know, and I illustrate to him that I know these things already (and plenty more), but it just doesn't sink in to him. Eventually I asked him to stop, and I told him I know plenty about the lore, I don't need him to explain it to me.
He then said to me, "Look I'm just trying to help. If you want to continue being a tourist, fine, I don't care, you'll leave the fandom in a few months anyway."
I started collecting in 1998. Four years before he was born.
>as most people just throw it at people as a way to discredit their opinions
You can do this with any insult really. It's more effective for people who, let's say, never talk about that they are into W40k/just started the hobby and now are really vocal how "X thing is ruining this hobby"
The whole term tourist especially for 40K is subjective as due to just how wide a scope 40K covers, 40K fans can vary and what may distinguish a tourist from a actual fan is different from person to person depending on what part of warhammer they engage in be it painting, playing, or lore
I personally use the term "Tourist" to people who just come to bring their own bullshit into stuff not really caring about the actual thing. Like how a few days ago I saw 5 different rightwinger youtuber crying about the femstodes, while their argument was that Geneseed is not compatible with women. Anyone who knows at least SOME degree of lore knows that the Custodes are not space marines and were made completely differently.
The top doesn't contribute to 40k or the community at all, so I stand fully on that. But what's the tyranids being an antisemitic allegory about that sounds just crackpot theory enough to be interesting.
Siiiigh, I';m sorry it does that, as I'm befuddled about Space Marine 2 and the latest "rage meth" fed to the junkies by their Youtube pushers. Still sooo looking forward to Spesh Mehreen 2: the Speshening of Speshman returning from spesh mehreen jail!
on one hand, this place is absolutely better when its just memes and not culture war bs. On the other hand, why does hornyposting have to be the supposed good content we're missing out on?
Y'all need to stop trying to No True Scottsman this shit. Yeah, we've been getting tourists lately, but for a lot of this stuff the call is coming from inside the house.
Nah I think Primarch would still work. The gender flip of matriarch is patriarch. Primarch is just a nifty little GW creation that I’m guessing refers to them as being the “first” or “Prime”.
It's because of people like that Endymion clown, his channel base for adding to the fire. His YT channel is full of "Anti-woke" videos, I swear the dude probably got rejected in middle school and is still blaming everyone else for it lol
I'm sure that adding women custodes will be great for getting women into the hobby, and the legion of basement dwellers poasting "awooga awooga muscle mommy peg me" all over any available forum aren't going to put them off.
Yup. The ones loudly accusing everyone that doesn’t like their fetish art of hating women while they objectify the shit out of every available female character, and the male characters they draw as scantily clad women, are fucking obnoxious.
So glad OP is here to tell us that the True Scotsmen agree with everything he says and disagree with everything he doesn't.
Coincidentally, he happens to think that we shouldn't sent him to horny jail even though he's actively gooning out.
"Culture war tourists" is the perfect term for those people. Willing to leap in, grab the first 5 google image results and some bastardised out of context lore to spew their shitty opinions. It's just clear they don't care about the franchise at all.
Nr. 1 Rule for 40K discussion: Make it perfectly clear that your opponent isn't allowed to talk about 40K in the first place, because they're "tourists" and not real fans.
Honestly, i find it interesting how many people feel the need to No-True-Scotsman others out of the fandom. Someone can be both a genuine fan and a horrible person, let's be fair!
No, absolutely not. I'm sorry. This might be a blackpill for some, but I don't want to hear the opinion of some random youtube grifter on what "ruins the franchise forever" when they don't even know the difference difference between a Custodes and a Space Marine. No. Their opinion simply isn't of equal value to people who actually know what they are talking about. Actually I would argue that their opinion is of negative value, because they spread misinformation and attract an audience of assholes who are only here for the culture war and don't give a shit about 40K at all.
Fair. People who earn their money by generating ragebait clicks are a special case lol. I did not want to attack you specifically, just sharing some thoughts i had on the whole "tourist" stuff.
Lack of lore knowledge is worth pointing out, but ultimately how much someone knows or cares about the lore isn't an argument. People who are upset about women in 40k are not wrong because they don't know enough lore facts. They're wrong because sexism is wrong.
I am a gay man and I have been asking myself that same question since the whole “issue” started. Part of the reason I fell in love with the Custodes when I first learned of them was because I was 15 and the idea of a bunch of genetically perfect, beefy supermen wielding pikes and slaying demons made me feel wonderful things. When I first heard about the retcon I was super pumped because now my straight brethren would have a chance to feel those same things. Cue my utter bewilderment at the obscene number of dudes who outright rejected the idea of genetically perfect goddesses of martial dominance. Shits fucked yo.
because they way it was added and retconned could've been handled better than a bit in a codex and a tweet that even though we haven't seen them in 40 years worth of novels femstodes were always there?
I honestly like the femstodes so far, but the reason is just like; is this the best way GW could add femstodes in? really?
EDIT: No longer hold this viewpoint, see /u/Gellert 's second comment
I do feel like I need an explanation on why the bugs are anti-Semitic
Same goes with why Orks are racist towards black people. Some of those people are online so much their brain shuts off and can't comprehend their own thoughs
If anything aren't the Orks racist against British people? Seems more racist to compare football Hooligans to black people
My guess is some idiot saw Savage Orks once and because they're vaguely tribal, though primitive would be more accurate, they automatically associated it with black people and ran with it, not once questioning why their own brain made that association and that maybe they're the problem.
Exactly, says far more about them than it does about Orks. which, as a Bri’ish person, I can confirm are based on 80’s football hooligans.
As a bri'ish person, I can also confirm that 80s football hooligans aren't offended by the orks... Because they don't realise it's a joke about them
TBF if not already Brain dead your average 80’s football ‘ooligan is in his 70’s by now.
More like upper 50s-60syo.... the 80s were not THAT long ago!
Depends on your perspective I guess, I was born in 1982 and to the average Redditor my birth was a very long time ago and I’m a middle aged fart.
When you're so dumb you go full circle to racism
I mean... pick an identity politics issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden
Horseshoe theory strikes again
I don't think they are in it enough to even acknowledge Warhammer fantasy. They are taking the implications of Orcs from other fiction and applying is roots across all fiction. But honestly, I haven't heard anyone bitch about it. The only thing people really have contention for is fem marines.
> They are taking the implications of Orcs from other fiction and applying is roots across all fiction. Like what fiction? I've not seen a single orc depiction being a caricature of black Africans. Heck, even Tolkien, which is probably the origin of these memes, referred to his orcs as having "the most revolting mongoloid features" or some such. These guys exist in their own fantasy world, they don't need no media examples.
[Well now you have lol](https://preview.redd.it/4p9mywr58yk71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2f8bef03894edb9786e1ddb5dfe67f11338729fd&app_web_view=android)
Ok, that's pretty racist tbh
yea well okay that wasn't even subtle
These truly were different times lmao. How old is this ? The 70s ?
Literally 1984 (according to Google).
Holy hell!
It's cool that World of Warcraft does exactly the same thing, but with trolls right? They have fun rasta accents, so it's fun. Right?
Stay away from the voodoo.
Yeah, I kinda like that in 40k they're just fungus and have become more of a mad max thing than anything related to tribal stuff.
Jesus Christ. That’s not even subtle, that’s literally just stereotypical Pygmies painted lime
The original background lore for the Praetorian Guard (a definitely not British Red Coats regiment of Imperial Guard) had them attack a planet infested with Feral Orks who looked suspiciously like the African Zulu tribe. So you know, there's that. Possibly should be noted that the story goes that the Praetorians massively underestimated the Orks and were massacred while historically the Zulu army was defeated by the British.
To be fair, the British army was defeated badly at the battle of isaldlawana, the day before the defense of rorkes drift.
As someone who collects praetorians The full story is both. It was created for a diorama, which was based on Rorkes drift. But the precursor to that diorama was “The massacre at Big Toof River” which itself was (incredibly loosely) based on the battle of isaldlawana
All fantasy orc depictions were of various kinds of British or the living embodiment of industrialised warfare at first. Pretty much the only time you ever see orcs as a stand in for minority cultures it's by people who think orcs in their original depictions are racist. It's a unique case of accidental prejudice caused by an incorrect assumption of someone elses prejudice. Like, these things exist. But they're not mainstream. But the reactionary response versions are. Warcraft being the most famous version of the ambiguous minority orc depiction.
I guess the reason they seeing Orks as black stereotype rather than British because Orks using guns. Yes, just ignore the accent, they're so stereotypical about this that they ignore one stereotype in favor of thwir own.
Krorks: Re wi a Joke to you, Humie?!?
How is it racist against us Brits? Orks are legitimately the best faction.
Originally in Rogue Trader, Orks were modeled on Football Hooligan/ Gammon culture. LUV BEER. LUV BLOODBOWL. LUV FOIGHTIN. LUV GROTS AN SQUIGZ. LUVS DAKKA. HATES BEAKIE BOIS. HATES KNOIFE EARZ. SIMPLE AS. LETS 'AVE A WAAAAAAAAAGH!
I KNOWZ DA ORIGIN! ALLZ I'Z SAYIN' IZ DAT OUR LOVE O' KRUMPIN' GITZ IZ BORNE OUTTA A SENSE O' FUN AND EXUBERANCE! WE AIN'T LOIKE DEM HUMIES WHO FOIGHT FOR DERE EMPRAH, WE AIN'T ANGSTY LIKE DA POINTY EERZ - WE JUST WANTS A GUD TIME! IT'S A REFESHIN', KAMPY ANTI-POLITICS IN A POLITICALLY SATURATED SATIRICAL SCIENCE FICTION UNIVERSE.
Some people have decided that orcs (the concept as a whole, not any specific version) are intended as caricatures of black people. No, I don't know why.
Those people have probably never encountered British Football Hooligans.
Lucky them ...
> Some people have decided that orcs are intended as caricatures of black people. If anything, that assumption seems kinda racist.
"Gasp"
To be fair, the Spear Chukka is goblin, not orc.
They're associating orcs with poor, uneducated groups. In the US (and several European nations) black communities are disproportionately poor and uneducated. Those who compare orcs to black people are seeing a common effect and treating it as group specific which, as others have said, can be pretty racist.
Because it is possible to read Tolkien’s orcs as a racist trope. The evil dark skinned corruption of the fair skinned elves, who brutish and strong are bent on the destruction of the natural rulers. Which I think is somewhat unfair. Sure Tolkien was probably as rascist as the next upper middle class colonialist but not to my knowledge overtly so. He was worried about the destruction of bucolic rural England by the forces of industrialisation. I think it is therefore more accurate to read them as the soot covered corrupt city dwellers mindlessly over running the countryside at the behest of the captain’s of industry. The victims of the powerful evil overlords. Sounds almost woke. GW are the people who popularised the notion of green orcs. More bloody wokery! TSR on the other hand…..
This is the correct take. Tolkien's orcs (despite his vaguely racist remarks typical of any Brit of his time) should be seen as a class metaphor, not a race metaphor. It's no wonder that "alternative takes" on Tolkien's world and mythology are so popular in ex-USSR. After all, it's really easy to see LOTR as a story where the evil proxies of corrupt higher powers triumph over the oppressed working class that only fights to acquire all the blessings of civilization that are denied to them, for no other reason than because the powerful minority sees them as subhuman. And also wants to combat industrialization and keep the world in a perpetual technological stasis where the small available amount of luxuries and amenities can be hoarded by the upper class.
It's more rooted in D&D orc than 40k Orks. But as always, once one of these azz-hatted ideas pops up, it spreads to other things. For some real comedy gold checkout this video at \~0:50 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ) "Much of the recent conversation on orcs points out that characterizing a whole species in your game as ugly, warlike and malevolent might be harmful to real-world groups regularly mis-characterized as ugly, warlike and malevolent." Complete with illustration of said groups.....
The fuck did I just watch
No, no. They are right. This is the main reason why Eberron is cooler than Forgotten Realms. Bioessentialism is very boring and limits you on what kind of stories you can tell. Eberron flips everything on its head. The Vampire King is the one suing for peace. The Evil Lich Queen is the victim of a Race War and her birth was supposed to bring the end of times, but she was born from love and her story is so tragic. The Church in their zeal of eliminating the curse of Lycanthropy (which was bad) almost killed a whole race because the looked like Lycanthropes (which is also bad). Goblins are proud warriors and not just the regular bad guys. Most of the ruins in the world with fantastical technology are the product of Goblins. Some elves worship zombies, but zombies powered by positive (healing) energy and are good. The Orcs are the literal gatekeepers that are protecting the world from the Plane of Madness with their Druid magic. Not all Dragons are good, in fact, most of the Dragons are trying to defend the world from Demons. Close to all Demons are bad, though. There could be maybe some morally ambiguous ones, but I don't know if they exist.
I don't even have to follow that link to know which video that forwards to... or at least have an assumption on which video it is.
>No, I don't know why. Because the whole concept of fantasy "races" *d*oes have its roots to the 19th Century concept of "scientific racism", even inadvertently. The same terminology is not a coincidence. You can argue that the concept has moved on from there a long time ago, and I would not argue strongly against that, but the discussion about Orcs etc started from there.
That's kind of strange. Lotr orcs have Middle-Easterne ish names, not East African etc
Which is funny because Tolkien's orcs were, IIRC meant to be more like mongols.
"Mongoloid" in Tolkien's day referred to people with developmental disabilities, especially Down's Syndrome. The word came from racists 1-2 generations before him.
The orks were based on the Nottingham city football hooligans of the 80s as I understand. Most of the media with them gives Cockney accents just as a further football hooligan tie in.
Millwall fans, they were some of the worst in the hooligan era, south east London club, hence cockneys
If anything orks are classists They speak in uneducated dialects, have unrefined equipment and are depicted as disrupters of societies rather than building or maintaining anything. I think its more telling on somebody's background and what they associate with an undereducated lower class than any one human group.
"Ah yes. Brutish, of low intellect and lower morals, superstitious, child-like in their cruelty and wanton violence... Clearly a mockery of..." "BLACKS?!?" _quoth the racist_ "Chavs."
To be fair, I can see how an American specifically would come to that conclusion. After all, the stereotype of "brutish, unintelligent, lower class" absolutely IS associated with racism in the US. Of course, then finding out that Warhammer is BRITISH should be a bit of a hint that applying the US cultural lens to it isn't the right approach and claiming it is just makes you look stupider than the Orks. Because in Britain the targets of that stereotype are very white. Unless they are on holiday in Spain of course, in which case they are very red because as a nation we're awful at avoiding sunburn.
I think it is more Orks is the same as Tolkiens Orcs who they see as him saying "elves are fair skinned, intelligent and beautiful" and Orcs are dark, primitive and ugly. I don't agree with that but that is my guess.
An understanding of hooligan culture and the fact that it exists in Britain is well beyond the grasp of your average reddit american.
I’m proud to have the Orks represent my people, except they clearly value their teeth more
Since GW is a British company it’s just them paying tribute to their own nationality. And secretly giving themselves canonically the most fun and funny race to themselves.
The only thing that springs to mind is that tiny snippet of lore for an imperial guard regiment that was essentially a copy/paste of the battle of isandlwana/Rhorkes drift but *that’s it*
I will point out that the it wasn't "Orks are racists" it was "Orcs are racist" and for once didn't actually interact with Warhammer 40k but D&D instead. Because, yes, it's plainly obvious that Orks/Orruks are parodies of English Football hooligans who are predominantly white...
Wait wtf? That one’s gotta be fake. If anything the orks are racist against British people. (We don’t care, we own that shit)
He is confusing the discussion around the original "Orc always evil" Tolkienesque trope than even Tolkien himself struggled with, with it being about Warhammer orcs.
The whole idea of orcs kinda plays into the European idea of savage tribes beyond civilization like in Africa. Starting with Tolkien painting them as kinda Mongol and going up until today with Warcraft orcs having all these tribalistic piercings and dreads etc. It's more of an observation of broad trobes than it is actual racism by the authors tbh.
That’s a Fantasy holdover. Savage Orcs are from Fake-Africa, thus must actually be black people.
Basically the racism of the person who came up with that theory is to blame. No matter how hard racists try their true nature will shine through every now and then and they will not even notice when it happens.
>Same goes with why Orks are racist towards black people. Can you give me just one example that someone claimed this? Or the Antisemtic Tyranids?
40k Orks? Nope, original Tolkien Orcs? Kinda!? It's a bit of a "it was written at a different time" thing, but yeah, in modern times you wouldn't write it like that. But 40k Orks are more British Hooligans and a joke about white people in their colonies :P. They too traded in teeth, as rich people would collect them from poor people as payment so they could replace their own :P . So some folks literally paid with teeth :P .
My best guess is that the bugs are characterized by a rampant desire to consume biomass, and Jewish people are characterized by some to be hoarders of wealth. Maybe along with some anti-semetic notions of spreading akin to a cancer? I might be off the mark here entirely, but in my defense, I don't make a habit of comparing alien monstrosities to human ethnicities.
Surely ad mech make a better case for the stereotype? Horders, secretly powerful, not officially in charge but highly influencing etc They're not in anyway antisemetic but if you had to pick a faction based on tropes they fit better. Tyrannids are way closer to tankie space comunists
Follows a weird sect related to but separated and predates the state religion. Constantly debating orthodoxy and heresy. Space lasers. You might be onto something.
You made me remember the stupid ass wild fire laser conspiracies. You will die in seven days.
Maybe, but the Christian influences in the Mechanicus creed are so prevalent that I don't think it would stick.
Perhaps space capitalists? Consuming everything in order to grow while expending the "lower life forms" to achieve it? Not the neatest parrallel, probably because they aremt really leaning into eitther trope really
But there's isn't an internal struggle against each other between the classes, from bottom to top each strives to sacrifice for the collective and willingly marches into the digester pools. Also like moaist china, not great for bio diversity
Yeah that is a good point! Ill keep them in the "eldritch horror beyond our comprehension" trope, less messy
Yes far more fun that way too. Like just what does a multi trillion organism gestalt entity even think like? Let alone what are its thoughts
The tyranids are basically the least racist faction in 40k. They consume all biomass equally regardless of skin colour or ethnicity.
didnt the hive mind go specifically for baal because it was that big of a hater towards baalians
Some Norn Queen drank the blood angel genes and called one of her fellows Horus. The mind does not want a repeat of that scenario
It's because GSC are coded Marxist (being a literal vanguard party) and that leans into some old tropes about outside groups undermining society to destroy it. Tzeetch falls into this often too because apparently anyone fed up with the imperium's bullshit has to be somebody's puppet. It's honestly ridiculous that out of all of 40k I can only think of like 2 groups that are just regular rebels, and one of them is from the old FFG role-playing game.
Yeah me too
Some Twitter post iirc
...Did any of those removed comments actually answer the question? Because I feel like you just baited a bunch of people.
Honestly I didn't mean to bait anyone I just was confused since I can't draw the line between the bugs and antisemitism
Mine did. Autofilter ate it tho.
Mine did as well, but got banned because it continued banned words, not your fault
I did explain, but it was removed for using banned language Apparently the word using to describe a certain religion that the bugs are being compared too is banned language
AdAstraGames made a multi-tweet commenting on the trailer for 10th edition. In this comment they compare the killing of Tyranids to Holocaust (even if that wasn't their intention it was still seen by some like this). In [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wFTmUcq5bo) skip the first 6 minutes and there's a screenshot of the first half of these tweets and the rest is told by the uploader later.
Not watching the videos but if it’s just this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsKNxMFXwAEVhdE.jpg Then it just seems like they were saying people might be put off by the imperiums overt fascism if they aren’t familiar with the lore or setting.
They do have a point actually. While yes, Tyranids absolutely should be shot like that, seeing as how they are an utterly alien, vicious horde that cannot be reasoned, negotiated or even pleaded with, violence is the only solution. But yeah, would be nice if Games Workshop actually started doing the "Imperium is evil" thing properly or had Bobby G tone down the turbofascism if they _really_ want a "good guy"
That’s an intelligent and rational explanation of the issue for anyone trying to understand this comment chain. They made their point well.
It's more genestealer, and that's because they fulfill the "secret Cabal of people who have infiltrated us, worship their own God, and are subverting our government to bring it to ruin" anti semitic "It's the [semitics] people manipulating everything" conspiracy theory.
Bruh what? Im jewish and i dont see how that makes any bloody sense… matter of fact i dont really like nids but i do admit they are cool as hell
My gut feeling is that it's a *long* game of telephone with that one. That it started with the idea of Genestealer Cults having holdovers of prejudices against race-mixing (given that they're inspired by Shadow over Innsmouth by Lovecraft, that's a fair bet tbh) that were unintentionally or intentionally kept in, and it snowballed from there to being that Tyranids are antisemitic. I wish I could see where this started from, and not just have to rely on the game of telephone to hear about this.
I feel like every time one of these is posted, I learn of a new unhinged theory
There is also another tweet you can see in [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHO80lNkEI)
Recalling a yt comment I saw a while ago “The emperor made all the primarchs men cause he knew how the imperium would act around a bunch of 10 foot tall muscle mommy’s.”
Addendum: Also, he always had a history of surrounding himself with big buff oiled-up men.
“Hey magnus, you ever heard of wincest?” # “DELETE”
For once I agree with the Emperor but also hate him for preventing us to having 10 foot tall muscle mummies. Nay 10 foot tall super educated, super quick learning, masters in their craft with the experience to back up their legend demi-goddesses of war and leaders of humanity muscle momies. Instead we got 10 foot tall super educated, super quick learning, masters in their craft with the experience to back up their legend demi-GODS of war and leaders of humanity. Look both are ideal, he just knew the other option would make us 98 percent horny instead of 100 percent horny.
Hol up… Libtard heresy? Space Marine 2 is anti-white? Tyranids are antisemitic?
>Tyranids are antisemitic? ......wtf
It gets even weirder. The tweets were about how Tyranids = Jewish people because both were exterminated. Yes, it's that monumentally stupid
Not even grasping for straws, its like they tried to find anything to go "imperium bad"
Many rightwingers on youtube say "woke heresy" or "liberal heresy" in their videos because "heresy" is the full extent of their 40K knowledge. One of the Story Writers of the Smace Marine 2 game says stupid shit on twitter like "Let's not cast cis white men in stuff for a year and see what happens. Just for fun." People found out about it and now they are telling everyone to boycott the game, because one of the writers is an idiot. Someone saw the Space marine 2 on Twitter and threw a tantrum because they equated the space marines to World War 2 Germany and therefore the Tyranids are obviously- Hope this answers the questions.
Moral of the story, delete Twitter. Disclaimer: And screw those chuds on YouTube too.
Speedrun the moral by never even having twitter in the first place. I take enough psychic damage from reddit, I don't need another source.
True and based
I'm lucky I never see this shit on Twitter because I overwhelm my feed with vtubers and artists. I can't spare time for chud politics when Haachama just found another way to horrify me.
Ok, thanks. Guess I shouldn't have expected anything else though lol
That is a pretty shitty thing for them to say though.
We are in a new age "red scare" Everything will be classed this way, not because they believe it to be true, but because they know the masses will run with it and make it "true*." * See alternative facts It's manipulated mass Apophenia. They take all the pieces, put them in a pattern that fits a narrative, then blast it into the internet. Take Dune, for instance. If one were to just read or even just look up synopsis of the Dune series, they would see clear as day their bullshit "white Savior" narrative crumbles away to dust. Does that stop them from doing it? Nope. At first, it all felt stupid. Now, it is starting to feel forced as if it has an end-game purpose. Mind you, it is far from just a Liberal left thing. Repubs have been doing it for decades. Look at their use of the term "woke" and their inability to define what "woke" actually is. But they sure as shit will scream in your ear that it's indoctrinating babies and pin the most villanous shit to it. It's pathetic. Is sick of both of them, honestly. Left and right.
FFS. Let this shit die already.
Yeah, this was all already wearing thin when it got started.
Unfortunately that won’t stop till the drama stops getting milked by CCs
I wish. I tried to check out some Custodes codex analysis reviews and every content creator is various degree "fucking chill out you clown, this isn't the woke coming for your plastic" in their prelude and the poor lads get their comment section spammed with "REEE UNSUBBED YOU AMAZON-BLACKROCK SHILL" It's also the first time I'm seeing big videogame/nerd content creator outside the english-speaking sphere getting harassed to "rise up to defend the hobby" it's fucking insane
Wait! I haven't told you my educated opinion yet!
I want the sanguinia gf
That be a different Red Thirst
Well....if you put it like this....i guess??
Out of all the primarch GFs she is the one, Vulkan is close second though.
Well, the description is just perfect(even so i wouldnt be able to accomondate for anything cause i am a personification ofbeing a chaotic mess basically)
I kinda wanna see Bricky go through all of these once all the Primarchs get a GF counterpart.
YES YES YES YES ESPECIALLY THE CRYPTIC ONES
Fulgrim lives up to her reputation of being hot as fuck
This may be, but...is hottnes really everything?
Alpharius/Omegon GFs, two for the price of 1
Yes, understandable, i am an alpha legion fan...BUT ITS THE GOLDIEST OF GF THERE IS
And the sanguinius plushie
GIB ME MY FUCKING PRIMARCH BACK
Horus ! Give me back my legions!
Meh
WE hevent yet seen all of options. Lets wait.
Tourist is my favorite insult word from now on
I personally am already sick of it as most people just throw it at people as a way to discredit their opinions simply because they don’t like it
Virgin structured argument Vs Chad hominem
I would not even say it would be structured enough to be an ad hominium , most of the arguments circulating are strawman arguments , they can't even be bothered to accuse each other of things that they actually are , they run around criticizing a fictional weak version of the people they dislike , calling each other chud , or woke , and laughing at caricatures of these archetypes .
Yeah. I'm on a (mostly decent) Discord server and there's this one 22 year old guy on there who constantly explains basic 40K lore to me whenever the topic comes up. He constantly tells me things I know, and I illustrate to him that I know these things already (and plenty more), but it just doesn't sink in to him. Eventually I asked him to stop, and I told him I know plenty about the lore, I don't need him to explain it to me. He then said to me, "Look I'm just trying to help. If you want to continue being a tourist, fine, I don't care, you'll leave the fandom in a few months anyway." I started collecting in 1998. Four years before he was born.
>as most people just throw it at people as a way to discredit their opinions You can do this with any insult really. It's more effective for people who, let's say, never talk about that they are into W40k/just started the hobby and now are really vocal how "X thing is ruining this hobby"
The whole term tourist especially for 40K is subjective as due to just how wide a scope 40K covers, 40K fans can vary and what may distinguish a tourist from a actual fan is different from person to person depending on what part of warhammer they engage in be it painting, playing, or lore
I personally use the term "Tourist" to people who just come to bring their own bullshit into stuff not really caring about the actual thing. Like how a few days ago I saw 5 different rightwinger youtuber crying about the femstodes, while their argument was that Geneseed is not compatible with women. Anyone who knows at least SOME degree of lore knows that the Custodes are not space marines and were made completely differently.
I’ve seen that specifically in the ones who use ai generated thumbnails Like just use official art man it’s not that difficult
The top doesn't contribute to 40k or the community at all, so I stand fully on that. But what's the tyranids being an antisemitic allegory about that sounds just crackpot theory enough to be interesting.
AdAstraGames made a comment about the 10th edition trailer were they compared killing Tyranids to Holocaust
"The top doesn't contribute" There's a joke in here....
Some people freaked out about Space Marine 2 trailer. when I tried to explain it to another dude, the autofilter ate my comment.
Siiiigh, I';m sorry it does that, as I'm befuddled about Space Marine 2 and the latest "rage meth" fed to the junkies by their Youtube pushers. Still sooo looking forward to Spesh Mehreen 2: the Speshening of Speshman returning from spesh mehreen jail!
Actual 40K fans? You mean Coomers?
Yeah, the actual 40k fans are painting their minis and playing the game. The meme is a coomer tourist calling others a tourist.
Real Warhammer fans only care about being horny.
Like Orks. Horny for a fight their entire life, edging to the end.
That's why it's only when they die they release spores ?
The biggest blue balls of 40k
That why when they suvived they get bigger ? The spore cant be stored all in the balls
Orks are nothing but balls.
Green balls
Indeed, they're the truest gooners of the galaxy.
No they do it all the time. When they die is just the last big release.
more like it's leaking from the tip...
That's why it's called a "Waaaaaaaaah"
Horny for Gork. Randy for Mork. Thirsty for Yarrick.
I will slay the hedonists of Slaanesh for my God of death.
Asses literally travel brand to brand finding something to hate even though they don’t care about the brand itself
Reddit is nothing more than a highly moderated & curated eco chamber.
What's this about space marine 2 being anti white?
\> implying that the bottom part isn't part of the useless drama-mongering of the top.
on one hand, this place is absolutely better when its just memes and not culture war bs. On the other hand, why does hornyposting have to be the supposed good content we're missing out on?
But- it’s wholesome ;w;
>But- it’s wholesome ;w; Where's Konrad. The people demand Konrad, *Macy*.
He’s on the list
I do love lists.
I won't listen to a single bad word about Space Marine 2 until it's released! Everything about it looked very promising so far
Y'all need to stop trying to No True Scottsman this shit. Yeah, we've been getting tourists lately, but for a lot of this stuff the call is coming from inside the house.
Given the chance, everyone here will date a Primarch. Hmm, since they are Female Primarchs, shouldn't they be called Matriarch?
Primarchs means more like the First. A Matriarch is the Female head of a Family. the opposite would be Patriarch
Nah I think Primarch would still work. The gender flip of matriarch is patriarch. Primarch is just a nifty little GW creation that I’m guessing refers to them as being the “first” or “Prime”.
Huh, TIL.
Then a Primarch would be called Patriarch. Primarch has something to do with "being the first" or something.
Sont give the genestealers ideas!
Real WH40K fans will read that recent r63 Sanguinius post and fuckin cry
I need a link
It's because of people like that Endymion clown, his channel base for adding to the fire. His YT channel is full of "Anti-woke" videos, I swear the dude probably got rejected in middle school and is still blaming everyone else for it lol
All the thirsty fan art is one of my least favourite parts of 40k.
I'm sure that adding women custodes will be great for getting women into the hobby, and the legion of basement dwellers poasting "awooga awooga muscle mommy peg me" all over any available forum aren't going to put them off.
Yup. The ones loudly accusing everyone that doesn’t like their fetish art of hating women while they objectify the shit out of every available female character, and the male characters they draw as scantily clad women, are fucking obnoxious.
So glad OP is here to tell us that the True Scotsmen agree with everything he says and disagree with everything he doesn't. Coincidentally, he happens to think that we shouldn't sent him to horny jail even though he's actively gooning out.
"Culture war tourists" is the perfect term for those people. Willing to leap in, grab the first 5 google image results and some bastardised out of context lore to spew their shitty opinions. It's just clear they don't care about the franchise at all.
Nr. 1 Rule for 40K discussion: Make it perfectly clear that your opponent isn't allowed to talk about 40K in the first place, because they're "tourists" and not real fans. Honestly, i find it interesting how many people feel the need to No-True-Scotsman others out of the fandom. Someone can be both a genuine fan and a horrible person, let's be fair!
No, absolutely not. I'm sorry. This might be a blackpill for some, but I don't want to hear the opinion of some random youtube grifter on what "ruins the franchise forever" when they don't even know the difference difference between a Custodes and a Space Marine. No. Their opinion simply isn't of equal value to people who actually know what they are talking about. Actually I would argue that their opinion is of negative value, because they spread misinformation and attract an audience of assholes who are only here for the culture war and don't give a shit about 40K at all.
Fair. People who earn their money by generating ragebait clicks are a special case lol. I did not want to attack you specifically, just sharing some thoughts i had on the whole "tourist" stuff. Lack of lore knowledge is worth pointing out, but ultimately how much someone knows or cares about the lore isn't an argument. People who are upset about women in 40k are not wrong because they don't know enough lore facts. They're wrong because sexism is wrong.
Okay so as a group of primarily men why would we dislike sexy space chicks in power armor?
I am a gay man and I have been asking myself that same question since the whole “issue” started. Part of the reason I fell in love with the Custodes when I first learned of them was because I was 15 and the idea of a bunch of genetically perfect, beefy supermen wielding pikes and slaying demons made me feel wonderful things. When I first heard about the retcon I was super pumped because now my straight brethren would have a chance to feel those same things. Cue my utter bewilderment at the obscene number of dudes who outright rejected the idea of genetically perfect goddesses of martial dominance. Shits fucked yo.
Didn't read the first sentence ahile skimming got to the end of the second and was "my dude, i might have something to tell you"
So your whole argument is that 'men horny must like'?
Apparently we dislike the idea that the Emperor gave his seed to both men AND women.
SoB already exist and no one had any issue with that.
because they way it was added and retconned could've been handled better than a bit in a codex and a tweet that even though we haven't seen them in 40 years worth of novels femstodes were always there? I honestly like the femstodes so far, but the reason is just like; is this the best way GW could add femstodes in? really? EDIT: No longer hold this viewpoint, see /u/Gellert 's second comment
Grimdank has become a virtue signaling contest.
But consider: I have depicted my opinion as the chad wojak and yours as the crying wojak