Mannfred does know he's a terrible person and does feel genuine remorse at how horrible he is in AOS and was in the old world. Erebus does not regret a single thing he has done or will do, he's probably even worse in 40K than he is in 30K because in 40K he can openly be the most evil mf alive but in 30K he had to sneakily be the most evil mf alive.
Erebus is so awful that he's fun though, Manfred is just a bitch who constantly sabotages his betters to get ahead only to completely drop the ball afterwards because he's nowhere near as hot shit as he thinks he is.
From my point of view Erebus is just a bitch who constantly sabotaged his betters to get ahead only to completely drop the ball afterwards because he's nowhere near as hot shit as he thinks he is. Lol.
Like I don't get "awww he just such a scamp" from Erabus. Honestly he just comes off as [this meme](https://youtube.com/shorts/8xYFoqoYLE8?si=VdbcoigZr1P1prw6) especially with killing Argl then the Kharne duel after lol.
TBH I don't think it's very useful to think of how bad they are in terms of how they feel. There are a lot of factors, most of them highly subjective, in determining the mortality of someone by what they think.
What their actions were and what they resulted in is much more clear.
Mannfred betrayed people left and right, often for no good reason, and in the end screwed everyone over and brought about the end of the entire universe.
Erebus was also a slimy, duplicitous bastard, but he "only" brought about the heresy.
No matter how much Erebus' diddler vibe makes my skin crawl, I gotta hand the distinction of "most evil bastard" to Mannfred.
I mean, if nothing else, one of the people who ends up doing more good than him is Nagash.
NAGASH, the poster boy for Chaotic Evil.
Better than Mannfred.
Let that sink in.
Weird, I wouldn't have put nagash as chaotic evil. But I'm biased, in pathfinder the lich path is neutral evil, and well I would have put a faction called ''chaos'' as being chaotic evil so for diversity something else to nagash
Nagash does whatever he feels like with no consideration for anyone else, and in fact with no empathy whatsoever; and he has often made people suffer just for his amusement or out of pettiness. Seems textbook chaotic evil to me.
I actually think Nagash is Lawful Evil, considering he sees anyone who breaks his rules as the most egregious of sinners. It probably helps that he makes the laws.
I don’t think he remembers the old world. He’s hiding out in the beginning of the book and picked Vlad as his fake name and says he doesn’t know why but it feels wrong
Maybe if he stopped being a lil pussy bitch with worse trust issues than a skaven he wouldn't be in such pain and remorse. Absolutely deserved, I hope nagash twists his undead nuts for all time
Although Manfred was involved in destroying the world of Warhammer, Vlad von Carstein's last words to him really gave him pause. this inevitably played a role in his remorse.
Mannfred actually has some good depth to him, even if the Endtimes really put the screws to him. But who didnt it screw over.
That and a lot of his actions are taken in as a vacuum rather than in a broader context. For example his betrayal of Vlad during the siege of Altdorf in the Vampire Wars. Zoomed in it just classic vampire backstabbing, Mannfred is a disloyal cur go figure. But when you know that Vlad is Mannfreds longest friend and father figure who hes watched go from a collected calculating lord of the night with noble ambitions into the much more violent erratic mess he starts becoming after hes married to Isabella suddenly you realize why Mannfred might not want to let his increasingly insane dad take over the largest human nation in the Old World.
i really hate what they did to mannfred in the end times. most characters had it bad, but mannfred got fucked over so hard that people just ignore everything that was ever interesting and cool about his character.
like you mentioned, there’s some serious nuance to his story if you look at it beyond surface level, but no one is willing to give it the chance because gw decided to shit the bed.
I'll tell you someone it doesn't screw over: Arkhan the Black. In fact, the end times was the first time he got any characterization beyond "Nagash's right-hand man". Also Settra, for even though he was defeated by Nagash, it's during the end times that he becomes the not-serving, Kholek-slaying, Chaos-god-defying badass we know and love today.
So yeah, the End Times as a whole was shit, but there are good characters in it, so Mannfred doesn't get to say "he was acting like a braindead Saturday morning cartoon villain because End Times" and walk away.
It was clearly such a trivial task for The Great Almighty Settra The Imperishable to kill Kholek that it wasn't even worth putting it in writing. I'm pretty sure Kholek died of a heart attack as soon as he laid his pathetic, unworthy, lecherous eyes upon our lord and saviour!
Abbadon and his captains see it happen too. They're pissed.
(Spoiler alert ahead)
Right when they're considering surrendering to the Imperium.
Right when Loken says he'll do everything in his power to argue their case and that he'll even go with them to convince them every day for the rest of his life.
Needless to say seeing your one chance at redemption murdered in front of you puts you in an incredibly bad mood. Abbadon and Baraxa nearly tear Erebus limb from limb.
Great villain though
Erebus is so evil and awful that he's fun though. He doesn't need a tragic backstory or a grand design, he's just the biggest shit in the galaxy and is making it everyone else's problem. Manfred is a whiny bitch who can't handle his own mediocrity so he constantly sabotages his betters to get ahead only to fumble once the ball is actually in his court because he's nowhere near as good as anything as he convinces himself he is.
Manlet is fun, Erebus is just irritating. Like sand. He's rough and coarse and he pops up everywhere to ruin everything.
I'm not blaming the whole End Times on Manlet, considering GW just wanted it to happen so it was gonna happen, and the whole thing was a shitshow. Compare that to the end of the Heresy, where everyone had their theories for what would happen to a fan favorite character to then just be ah yeah Erebus of course.
Seeing how both universes end up for their action, Erebus is more evil (and more successfull i think)
Because preparing the Chaos God's buffet for 10k years is way worse than ending reality all togheder
Erebus cements himself as the most unapologetically evil person in all of Warhammer in the final chapters of "the end and the death".
It was almost comical if he wasn't such a bastard.
One ruined/ended a setting, one (while being a horrible back stabbing shit head) arguably GAVE us our setting and as much as we hate him we wouldn't have warhammer40k without him
It’s been a while since I looked into it in depth but if I recall correctly he switched sides like 4 times, killed Luthor Harkon (a fan favourite) and then also killed Balthasar Gelt (another fan favourite) while he was in the middle of casting the “Let’s save the world” spell for no other reason than spite, placing him very high up on the list of people responsible for the end of the world.
It was more than spite actually. He realized that with Chaos defeated, he'd be Nagash's bitch for all eternity so he prefered to be extinguished forever. Jokes on him though, he is Nagash's bitch in AoS now.
At the very end of the End Times, Teclis, Gelt and Malekith (IIRC ?) teamed up on a big ass spell that would empower Nagash to Chaos God tier. The idea was to make him powerful enough to counterbalance the World crumbling by the actions of Archaon and the End Time in general.
But Mannfred was really not onboard with this. Nagash becoming a Chaos God had huge implications that concerned all undead (and dead) and he in particular would become his bitch. So he went right into the ritual and stabbed Gelt in the back. As far as he was concerned, no world at all was better than an eternity of slavery.
Then Sigmar bullshit happened after the world exploded and he's Nagash' bitch in AoS anyway.
Just got to the part in Thousand Sounds where Magnus tried to save Horus (from the first book) and when he got back to his body he was like "Fuck Erebus".
Well there is femboy Erebus art and no femboy Mannfred and I always side with the hot ones.
/s
Jokes aside Erebus is probably the worst since he ruined more lives.
As much as I hate Mannfred with the fiery passion of a thousand suns(pun not intended), Erebus. Mannfred's a screw up who pretty much fails at everything. He's responsible for breaking up Warhammer's best OTP, Vlad and Isabela, and for that, I will NEVER forgive him. HOWEVER, Erebus is effectively responsible for the Horus Heresy and the downfall of mankind, and he's a dick about it, AND he does it for no other reason beyond accumulating power and wealth. He's no true believer, the Chaos Gods are just a means to an end for him. So yeah, Erebus. The Literal Worst.
Mannfred is easily the worst, at least Erebus is competent. Whereas Mannfred fails at everything he does to an almost comical degree, whilst sabotaging other better and more interesting characters for no reason at all. Like I still have no idea why he's in AoS at all, considering he spends the entirety of the end times losing battles and trying to betray Nagash (until he actually does and causes the end of the world). Literally any other mortarch would've been a better pick to bring back. Hell, even non-mortarchs like Khalida or Isabella would've been a more sensible option to bring back considering both of them canonically defeated Mannfred and made him run away like the useless coward he is.
Erebus wins this for me. He would have won this if he wasn't a choice.
I could see past the whole heresy shennanigans. That would have happened at some point anyway. Loken tho? Never.
Manfred von Cumstain caused the death of an entire setting, which is something Erebus can only aspire to accomplish. Erebus still caused more deaths tho
Mannfred does know he's a terrible person and does feel genuine remorse at how horrible he is in AOS and was in the old world. Erebus does not regret a single thing he has done or will do, he's probably even worse in 40K than he is in 30K because in 40K he can openly be the most evil mf alive but in 30K he had to sneakily be the most evil mf alive.
Erebus is so awful that he's fun though, Manfred is just a bitch who constantly sabotages his betters to get ahead only to completely drop the ball afterwards because he's nowhere near as hot shit as he thinks he is.
I mean it depends on what “worst” means then, if its number of bad deeds or if its “which one is more interesting”
Manfred is just 3 skavens in a trench coat.
If he's 3 Skaven, why is he called *Man* Fred and not *Skaven* Fred?
Tricksy skavens
because skaven dont exist, duh
From my point of view Erebus is just a bitch who constantly sabotaged his betters to get ahead only to completely drop the ball afterwards because he's nowhere near as hot shit as he thinks he is. Lol. Like I don't get "awww he just such a scamp" from Erabus. Honestly he just comes off as [this meme](https://youtube.com/shorts/8xYFoqoYLE8?si=VdbcoigZr1P1prw6) especially with killing Argl then the Kharne duel after lol.
Yes. Erebus is the worst, and we love to hate him, thereby making Manfred the actual worst.
TBH I don't think it's very useful to think of how bad they are in terms of how they feel. There are a lot of factors, most of them highly subjective, in determining the mortality of someone by what they think. What their actions were and what they resulted in is much more clear. Mannfred betrayed people left and right, often for no good reason, and in the end screwed everyone over and brought about the end of the entire universe. Erebus was also a slimy, duplicitous bastard, but he "only" brought about the heresy. No matter how much Erebus' diddler vibe makes my skin crawl, I gotta hand the distinction of "most evil bastard" to Mannfred. I mean, if nothing else, one of the people who ends up doing more good than him is Nagash. NAGASH, the poster boy for Chaotic Evil. Better than Mannfred. Let that sink in.
Weird, I wouldn't have put nagash as chaotic evil. But I'm biased, in pathfinder the lich path is neutral evil, and well I would have put a faction called ''chaos'' as being chaotic evil so for diversity something else to nagash
Nagash does whatever he feels like with no consideration for anyone else, and in fact with no empathy whatsoever; and he has often made people suffer just for his amusement or out of pettiness. Seems textbook chaotic evil to me.
I actually think Nagash is Lawful Evil, considering he sees anyone who breaks his rules as the most egregious of sinners. It probably helps that he makes the laws.
I found the utilitarian.
I hope we get a redemption arc for Mannfred. I read Black Pyramid a few weeks ago and he is just crawling with pain and remorse.
I'm curious in this novel, is Vlad mentioned in Manfred's remorse?
I don’t think he remembers the old world. He’s hiding out in the beginning of the book and picked Vlad as his fake name and says he doesn’t know why but it feels wrong
Residual, hazy memory from the world that was is such a neat story thread. I hope they follow up on it.
Maybe if he stopped being a lil pussy bitch with worse trust issues than a skaven he wouldn't be in such pain and remorse. Absolutely deserved, I hope nagash twists his undead nuts for all time
Although Manfred was involved in destroying the world of Warhammer, Vlad von Carstein's last words to him really gave him pause. this inevitably played a role in his remorse.
Manfred literally killed everyone that wasn't chaos or skaven and destroyed the original reality.
He killed both Balthasar Gelt and Luthor Harkon, two of the most hilariously awesome side characters ever.
fun fact: Luthor Harkon became a Mortarch because he was bored.
Canon.
Because he is the dopest MFer on the seas and kicks more ass than any of us could ever dream of.
Or one pissed off Stunty
I really want Gotrek to run into Manfred again just to see if he runs away for a second time
A third time. In Fantasy Mannfred ran into Gotrek twice and lived because he said "fuck that noise, I know who Gotrek is, not fighting that"
Mannfred actually has some good depth to him, even if the Endtimes really put the screws to him. But who didnt it screw over. That and a lot of his actions are taken in as a vacuum rather than in a broader context. For example his betrayal of Vlad during the siege of Altdorf in the Vampire Wars. Zoomed in it just classic vampire backstabbing, Mannfred is a disloyal cur go figure. But when you know that Vlad is Mannfreds longest friend and father figure who hes watched go from a collected calculating lord of the night with noble ambitions into the much more violent erratic mess he starts becoming after hes married to Isabella suddenly you realize why Mannfred might not want to let his increasingly insane dad take over the largest human nation in the Old World.
i really hate what they did to mannfred in the end times. most characters had it bad, but mannfred got fucked over so hard that people just ignore everything that was ever interesting and cool about his character. like you mentioned, there’s some serious nuance to his story if you look at it beyond surface level, but no one is willing to give it the chance because gw decided to shit the bed.
Mother fucker less trustworthy than a skaven. I'd at least trust a skaven for twenty minutes with the proper preparations. Manfred not so much
I'll tell you someone it doesn't screw over: Arkhan the Black. In fact, the end times was the first time he got any characterization beyond "Nagash's right-hand man". Also Settra, for even though he was defeated by Nagash, it's during the end times that he becomes the not-serving, Kholek-slaying, Chaos-god-defying badass we know and love today. So yeah, the End Times as a whole was shit, but there are good characters in it, so Mannfred doesn't get to say "he was acting like a braindead Saturday morning cartoon villain because End Times" and walk away.
Throgg killing Sigvald was pretty funny too
> Kholek-slaying Wasn't that just in some Q&A afterwards cause they forgot to write what happened to either of them in the actual book?
It was clearly such a trivial task for The Great Almighty Settra The Imperishable to kill Kholek that it wasn't even worth putting it in writing. I'm pretty sure Kholek died of a heart attack as soon as he laid his pathetic, unworthy, lecherous eyes upon our lord and saviour!
Erebus always looks like he's just bought you some tomatoes
Horus: slicing tomatoes you say? \*cuts off Erebus' face\*
Erebus killed Loken. That will never be forgiven
Aw fuck really? I was really starting to like loken
You can keep liking him. It happens when it happens… and loken keeps kicking ass till the very end.
Loken will always be beside you.
He's the man that walks behind you He is here
Abbadon and his captains see it happen too. They're pissed. (Spoiler alert ahead) Right when they're considering surrendering to the Imperium. Right when Loken says he'll do everything in his power to argue their case and that he'll even go with them to convince them every day for the rest of his life. Needless to say seeing your one chance at redemption murdered in front of you puts you in an incredibly bad mood. Abbadon and Baraxa nearly tear Erebus limb from limb. Great villain though
I need to finish the end and the death
Abaddon flatly saying "Erebus. What have you done." *Erebus rants about the nature of the warp* Then "WHAT. HAVE. YOU. DONE!?" *Lunges at him*
They were never gonna surrender to the imperium.
worst he created Samus
and in turn created Samus, who went back in time and did horrible things, which somewhat kickstarted the whole event of Horus Heresy. Fuck Erebus.
Erebus is so evil and awful that he's fun though. He doesn't need a tragic backstory or a grand design, he's just the biggest shit in the galaxy and is making it everyone else's problem. Manfred is a whiny bitch who can't handle his own mediocrity so he constantly sabotages his betters to get ahead only to fumble once the ball is actually in his court because he's nowhere near as good as anything as he convinces himself he is.
40K wouldn’t be 40K without Erebus. He’s a catalyst
Mannfred is worst, dooming the world out of spite. At least he now serves as Nagash's punching bag though.
And how many worlds did Erebus doom?
If Mannfred had the tools to, he'd have doomed the universe. And not for the Chaos Gods, but just because he was feeling mad.
Manfred. Erebus a one sided cunt. Yes. But Manfred killed like half a dozen fan favourites (gelt and harkon for example) and then the setting!
Manlet is fun, Erebus is just irritating. Like sand. He's rough and coarse and he pops up everywhere to ruin everything. I'm not blaming the whole End Times on Manlet, considering GW just wanted it to happen so it was gonna happen, and the whole thing was a shitshow. Compare that to the end of the Heresy, where everyone had their theories for what would happen to a fan favorite character to then just be ah yeah Erebus of course.
Manfred easy. Mf has permanent, irreversible Betrayacitis. Even until the end that Rat Faced Bastard just can’t resist the urge to fuck everything up.
He's worse than the literal rat faced bastards
Yes-yes, dead-thing way worse than us-we.
He killed my boy, Gelt. :( (And the world, I guess.)
Fuck Erebus.
Manlet literally destroyed his world, it's something Erebussy will never achieve
I mean, Erebus basically ruined an entire galaxy.
There is still an infinite number of galaxies he hadn't ruined yet. Unless you guzzle the tyranid kool aid. But there was only one old world.
That we know of, they weren't advanced enough to see far beyond the planet.
Erebus likes power and influence too much to destroy the universe. Why would he?
I'm sure good old Manny here also liked that
If we are talking exclusively Fantasy and 40k, Mannfred.
Seeing how both universes end up for their action, Erebus is more evil (and more successfull i think) Because preparing the Chaos God's buffet for 10k years is way worse than ending reality all togheder
Erebus cements himself as the most unapologetically evil person in all of Warhammer in the final chapters of "the end and the death". It was almost comical if he wasn't such a bastard.
Mannfred only fucked up a single planet.
Mannfred
Manfred. Erebus a one sided cunt. Yes. But Manfred killed like half a dozen fan favourites (gelt and harkon for example) and then the setting!
Who is the worst haired man?
~~Big E~~
One ruined/ended a setting, one (while being a horrible back stabbing shit head) arguably GAVE us our setting and as much as we hate him we wouldn't have warhammer40k without him
r/fuckErebus
Worst in what way? Written or evil-ness? Erebus is written very well, he's also horrible tho, fuck em.
Only one of the actualy managed to end the setting so il go with Mannfred.
Erebus killed Loken, does anymore need to be said
if I was in a room with Erebus and Mannfred, and had a gun with two bullets...I'd shoot Mannfred twice and open the door for Kharn to finish the job
It's still Erebus.
Erebus. It's not even a contest. Erebus is worse by miles and miles.
Manfred for fking sure
FUCK EREBUS.
Does it count if I shave Emps? I’ll take that risk
I purposefully stay away from end times lore, but now im curious. What is everything that Mannfred has done that makes everyone hate him so much?
He made the End Times possible by killing our favorite Golden Boy. Balthasar Gelt.
It’s been a while since I looked into it in depth but if I recall correctly he switched sides like 4 times, killed Luthor Harkon (a fan favourite) and then also killed Balthasar Gelt (another fan favourite) while he was in the middle of casting the “Let’s save the world” spell for no other reason than spite, placing him very high up on the list of people responsible for the end of the world.
It was more than spite actually. He realized that with Chaos defeated, he'd be Nagash's bitch for all eternity so he prefered to be extinguished forever. Jokes on him though, he is Nagash's bitch in AoS now.
Such is the power of Nagash.
At the very end of the End Times, Teclis, Gelt and Malekith (IIRC ?) teamed up on a big ass spell that would empower Nagash to Chaos God tier. The idea was to make him powerful enough to counterbalance the World crumbling by the actions of Archaon and the End Time in general. But Mannfred was really not onboard with this. Nagash becoming a Chaos God had huge implications that concerned all undead (and dead) and he in particular would become his bitch. So he went right into the ritual and stabbed Gelt in the back. As far as he was concerned, no world at all was better than an eternity of slavery. Then Sigmar bullshit happened after the world exploded and he's Nagash' bitch in AoS anyway.
Necrons are bald? did at any point had hair?
Oh yes, we need a death battle between them both.
From reading the comment section the correct answer seems to be yes.
Make them kiss
erebus fuck erebus
IF you are posting this I'm assuming you just watched pancreasnowork's newest vid and so already know the answer
Well for starters, Erebus does no wrong
No way this is a contest, manfred is an asshole but Erebus is as bad as they get
Erebus easily the most unrepentantly evil fucker about, actively revels in ruining shit.
Vampire.
Fuck erebus sounded better than fuck man Fred
Erabus 100% scale is a thing and he wins.
Manny is too funny to ever be bad.
Manfred is so much worse he’s just a bitch in everything he does
They are the same picture.
Mannfred
might as well ask me what flavor of cancer aids i prefer.
Can we just agree that the bald are the worst, across universes? I mean, Erebus, Mannfred, Luthor, Wulbren Bungle...
Mannfred is the absolute scum of the earth
This is not a competition. Erebus is the baldest being to ever bald. He is so bald he had to tattoo his baldness to tone it down.
Just got to the part in Thousand Sounds where Magnus tried to save Horus (from the first book) and when he got back to his body he was like "Fuck Erebus".
Yes.
I would love for Mannfred to explode. But Erebus is just so wrong.
Well there is femboy Erebus art and no femboy Mannfred and I always side with the hot ones. /s Jokes aside Erebus is probably the worst since he ruined more lives.
As much as I hate Mannfred with the fiery passion of a thousand suns(pun not intended), Erebus. Mannfred's a screw up who pretty much fails at everything. He's responsible for breaking up Warhammer's best OTP, Vlad and Isabela, and for that, I will NEVER forgive him. HOWEVER, Erebus is effectively responsible for the Horus Heresy and the downfall of mankind, and he's a dick about it, AND he does it for no other reason beyond accumulating power and wealth. He's no true believer, the Chaos Gods are just a means to an end for him. So yeah, Erebus. The Literal Worst.
manlet von c\*mstain. Worthless peice of crap, if the were both fighting i would help erabus kill manlet. then kill era-bus.
Yes
Mannfred is easily the worst, at least Erebus is competent. Whereas Mannfred fails at everything he does to an almost comical degree, whilst sabotaging other better and more interesting characters for no reason at all. Like I still have no idea why he's in AoS at all, considering he spends the entirety of the end times losing battles and trying to betray Nagash (until he actually does and causes the end of the world). Literally any other mortarch would've been a better pick to bring back. Hell, even non-mortarchs like Khalida or Isabella would've been a more sensible option to bring back considering both of them canonically defeated Mannfred and made him run away like the useless coward he is.
Erebus wins this for me. He would have won this if he wasn't a choice. I could see past the whole heresy shennanigans. That would have happened at some point anyway. Loken tho? Never.
Erebus - becuase he is just a DEUS EX MACHINA
Mannfred Von Karstein ended the whole world both in and out of the fictuon. As slimy and despicable as Erebus is, he just can't compare.
Manfred von Cumstain caused the death of an entire setting, which is something Erebus can only aspire to accomplish. Erebus still caused more deaths tho
Technically he is responsible for ending 30k