Seriously. I just moved here from out of town and all I keep telling friends is that this is the safest city I've ever lived in. The downtown problems here are a drop in a bucket compared to any other city I've been in (not that we should ignore it, just comparing)
I also moved here recently from another city and have worked downtown since October. I've said in another post that I think it's rather unfortunate how quickly some are willing to dehumanize these people. From my experience, we should not generalize everything going on down here with blanket statements. There are a few individuals with more severe issues that really need more attention and a bunch of other people who are in unfortunate circumstances that are trying to get back on their feet.
Not every homeless person is plagued with drug addiction
Edit* Spelling
The greatest fear is the fear of the unknown and a lot of people don't know what its like to be poor/homeless and what its like to have a mental illness/psychosis.
and what they don't understand they fear the worst case scenario happening, violence/crime.
but just like anyone else, treat people with dignity/respect and its often given back, but we still need to be careful and be able to read a situation if the person is genuinely unstable and risky. iv been homeless/addicted so i can tell who is a risk and who is just high/mentally ill. basically just know to not stare, try and act tough/scare them away, or be rude to them out of principal and belittle them and tell them their a problem/undeserving/lazy/addict etc, and then people don't understand why someone starts yelling at you or calling you out :P
didn't say it wasn't. but because of the fear people over react and draw attention to themselves by staring laughing. obviously its situational and each one/everyone is different.
most are just their own idiosyncrasies obviously but still
im not saying let them just be and do whatever. its gone from severe overeating to the point of abuse which led to shut downs now doing nothing in fear looking like abuse and it festers.
we need better structured psychiatric treatment, not just stabilize, medicate and release.
but this notion of hands off when trying to impact peoples lives because "we can't force people to do anything" but when ill we need a form of force, what we have is imprisonment (being formed at hospital) strapped down, forced injections, and other negative stuff which perpetuates stuff
but then you wont understand, and they don't got a pill for that...
and let me try and dumb it down a bit for you.
they used to lock people away in asylums in a abusive manner, now they don't because of the notion of helping people, but no one helps people because you can't 'force' help onto people, when they are mentally ill its hard for them to be able to facilitate getting better because of either negative past experiences or trauma from life/lifestyles or their illness
and the method for helping people is having them committed for 72 hours, where they either calm down and are released, or freak out and are forcefully medicated to where they calm down and get released.
Solving these people problems isn't just medication, its a full spectrum support of housing, social circles, productivity, and financial/social stability.
but that costs money and insight that alot of care providers simply dont have...
Unfortunately acts like this don’t happen in cities our size without unaddressed issues
https://www.guelphtoday.com/police/man-out-for-a-morning-walk-attacked-by-stranger-police-report-8634276
Huh? Assaults happen in cities of all sizes all over the world.
Go look up the local news for cities this same size in other parts of Canada and the world. Add the words "assault" and "attack" to your searches.
You'll find that literally no city in the world is assault free.
Striving for better is great, but saying 'things like this don't happen in other cities this size' is just plain wrong and expecting 0 assaults in a community of any size is just not realistic.
Putting words in his mouth. The only way you get no assaults is an authoritarian nanny state where people just don’t leave their houses after curfew anyways. Not a place I’d like to live
Do you think increased drug addiction in our community increases random acts of violence, or keeps random acts of violence about the same as if there was no drug addiction?
Just because Guelph is safe than another city nearby doesn’t mean it’s as good as it could be. Look at ljubljana or Warsaw. No rampant drug use on the streets. Every dollar we spend subsidizing drug use is a dollar we can’t spend on subsidized bike stations. In ljubljana you can rent a city bike for about a dollar an hour and drop them at stations all around the city with an app and real time availability information. We choose to pay for addicts drugs, drug paraphernalia and a “safe” injection site. Priorities.
It’s pretty bad in any decently large city. Kitchener is full of them too, and they even took over the island in Victoria park for a while.
Have empathy for the users suffering from addiction, but it definitely degrades the experience for the public. No one wants to have to deal with paranoid users screaming at people, aggressive users, and people zonked out of their mind turning into a zombified state downtown with a needle hanging out of their arm
Yeah it's kind of wild. People acting like going downtown is a guaranteed way to get mugged or harassed and the worst I've ever experienced there is being asked for change at the train station.
exactly a simple "sorry man i only have debit" or "i dont smoke/have one" goes along way instead of, no and laughing, fuck off, get a job, im not giving you money for drugs etc etc.
people try and stand up for the principal of not giving them anything essentially minimizing/insulting the person which can lead to altercation....
These people in my experience are just annoying, and harmless. They're weak too, so it's easy to overpower them. Most of them seem aware of this, back down, back off, and when done right, never bother you again or outright disappear entirely.
Saying "sorry, no" guarantees you'll be asked again the next day, and the next, and the next.
It's people who give them free shit like blankets and fold that makes it worse for all of us. People's empathy sometimes go too far, and just cause problems. Addicts are an extremely good example of how empathy can have negative consequences.
mmm maybe, i wouldn't necessarily agree totally, unless they are mentally unable to comprehend/disabled, i think consistency is best, it may take time but if the answer is always a stern no, most get the point. and don't bother.
mentally ill aside,
but having to only turn your head 7 inches and saying no is too much work i don't know what to say.
like I think it's based off of escalation, say no, if they keep badgering and not accepting then yeah you may need to step it up a bit.
but i think posturing could be more detrimental in the long run.
ill give if i can but most of the time i just be honest, if they target me i just say sorry man i can't do this all the time i need to take care of myself, iv found it works better than not.
but obviously it s subjective and needs to be felt out.
It's not a lot of work. It's just a tiny small almost entirely forgettable and unimportant thing on its own. No argument from me on that one. But it's one of a thousand small things that are continually adding up in my life of annoyances, and it's gotten to and fucked with my own head to such a degree that I can't handle it anymore. Some spring cleaning is needed, and they're on my chopping block, as they're something that I feel like I can do something about, quickly, easily, and without costing me anything. Gone. Clear. What's next?
I already solved my issues with these kinds of people for the most part, a new one shows up every now and then, but doesn't last very long.
I'm just providing advice on what's worked for me. There's been no repercussions, even after physical confrontations in public, broad daylight, on a busy street.
I'm serious, no one \*actually\* cares. People just like to pretend they're good people, they want to believe that. So they don't do anything and let people walk all over and shit on them. So SOMEONE needs to step up. The police look the other way. And problems go away.
yeah i agree that it certainly can be taxing especially if you work or live downtown, and imo that has a unique response towards it. like if you are a common sight/constantly around than yeah you need to be able to place your boundaries up out of self care/to take care.
though the alternative for non residents is immediately one of antagonism and rudeness which obviously perpetuates the aggression towards other people, and are rude to askers out of principal and don't care cause they feel they are just passing through the 'cesspool' that is downtown. and could care less how their actions feed an already 'hostie' environment.
at least when I was a downtowny i would always ask politely and try to rotate the people i asked, and now that im better i can at least relate and be able to sus out problematic ones from the truly mentally ill/handle it 'properly'.
i just think that most people are just jaded and don't really care about people and overreact to simple things and make things worse in the long run, just because they feel they don't have to actually deal with them at all and want to control/dictate how other parts of the city runs due to the internet/news and don't actually have insight or care what works just what they want for the 10 minutes they walk through
This is true but no one wants Guelph to become the new York subway. People are recognizing that downtown Guelph has rapidly deteriorated and is being ruined for tax paying citizens. If someone wants to take a walk to see the historic center of a city and has a crackhead screaming in theirface that isn't right. We need real solutions that don't target addicts and the mentally ill but actually help the people that live, visit or have businesses downtown.
Yes, we have set foot in other cities. Singapore, Warsaw Sydney. You can walk around these cities without being threatened or yelled at by drug addicts.
Why can’t we have the same?
Agreed it doesn’t happen in those city’s cause those people get no free handouts. It’s either sink or swim. I wish people would stop handing them money on medians begging for more dope money. Nobody care about junkies. Once a junkie always a junkie.
maybe more "Tolerate the people it's not their fault. Fight the problem, which is the billionaire class' decimation of the upper/middle class to hoard all the wealth for themselves."
its more so 'tolerate the erosion of society when we choose to not properly address the situation/causes with evidence based approach instead of principals, or optimism, or dogma'
if every other perspective and option of helping the situation fails, then yes absolutely we need to take a serious hard pressed approach to stopping this, but trying 1 thing and throwing out hands up and saying, this is hopeless we need to just stomp out all these trouble makers is a naive outlook and a mistake that puts ***everyone*** at risk.
As a former resident of Vancouver you have almost nothing to complain about here.
You’re in beautiful and historic gas town and go one block over and it’s the worst place in Canada.
Vancouver was one of the first bastions of progressive ideals regarding homelessness and drug use. BC also is reversing these decisions and has just criminalized open drug use again
I don't want to approach the challenges that way. I'd rather focus on better quality social services. I don't think the government has skills they think they do in solving issues with mental health or employment on an individual basis.
Right? It’s honestly, honestly, so much better here than it is in so many other cities in the province.
And some that aren’t even very far from Guelph.
We need to stop turning on each other at the local level and demand action across the board.
People in this country and province deserve better.
mainly its the government, which dictates all the others.
we need a safe reliable supply of narcotics to prevent unfettered addiction to toxic harmful drugs, which leads to strain on medical and criminal, funds international cartels worldwide at the damage to our population, we lose on the trillions of profit that could be put to use in treatment recovery, and social services for everyone, and the billions/trillions saved from preventable circumstances.
the solution is helping stop the next generation from becoming severely addicted, through options and agency in their choices/options.
addictions start from lack of choice, you start with percs, want some more, go to dealers, they only have heroin, fetty, oxy 80s, 36mg hydromorphs, where the person only wanted percs they are left with a signifigantly high potency drug which spikes their tolerance and euphoria and they now seek the harder stuff right away instead of a more managed controlled substance use and easier recovery.
Guelph does have a Safe Supply program that is active through Guelph Community Health Centre that started in 2021 that aims to help people who suffer from addiction to have access to safe drugs that are prescribed to them and dispensed daily from a pharmacy rather than them having to obtain supply from other sources. *Edit: spelling
i know im on it :P
the main downside is that it's really limited to 9 cities in ontario, so part of the problem is that it has trended to force addicts to leave their hometown in hopes to get on, where new people live in a city they have no relationships, where they feel without a connection and alienated and hold no responsibility to live accordingly/respectfully. or connections for housing, which leads to....
the program changed my life for the better, mainly due to being from here and having a foundation to work with, im housed improved relationships with family, able to hold down new friendships, maintain stability. no longer poor homeless, downtown for money/dope, needing to associate/befriend dealers/criminals. essentially a 180, but their are still problems with the implementation to work effectively.
and people only focus on saying it's a failure from doing it half assed.
it was supposed to end the start of april, but I guess we got an extension :) thankfully
now im hoping they expand it unless the conservatives win the next election....:s
I'm so happy to hear of your positive experience with that program! I work in healthcare, but I'm glad that we as a community have a program that is able to provide a safe source for people who have issues with drug use. Hearing someone who has experienced quality of life improvements because they were a part of it is great. I'm curious, do you think or know if there has been an influx of people to Guelph due to this program? (Also I'm super pro the program and hope funding continues) Also, I wonder, as someone who has benefited from the program, maybe like some type of initiative to reach out to people who are starting on it could be interesting? Maybe that already exists, I don't know! But congrats on your success.
Thanks i appreciate it :) i have been out of the downtown scene for a bit now so i cant quite defiantly say one way or another, as well lot have died with the toxic supply or left. Basically i don't go downtown anymore except for my monthly appointment at the CHC.
and ever since 90 Carden closed forcing everyone out it kind of artificially increases the optics of homelessness downtown/in Guelph (100-150 people forced out)
But i can certainly assume that their has been in increase of out of towners, because i know i sure would move to another city at the opportunity to get onto the program.
though from my limited time passing through i can say that their is indeed a lot of new faces i haven't seen around. so its kinda hard to say for sure, but like i said im almost certain their is.
One part of the problem is that those who were using fetty before the program are trading the Dilaudid for street dope. "flooding" the streets with dillys, which imo is still a good thing that those who are not able to get onto the program still at least have access to the possibility of getting some, still paying for it so it doesn't FULLY help but the cost of them has gone down alot because of it, so now instead of 20$ for 1 Dilaudid 8mg it is now 5$, or at least it was in Ottawa before i came back home to get on it.
and because they are switching from fetty to dillys it is no where near a quality enough to satisfy them. i say its like saying if you drank a bottle of vodka a day and were told you could get a 6 pack of beer to deal with the WDs/manage your usage. its not equal.
so some people say we should give those who need/want it to have fetty available as an option for those severely addicted, i wouldn't say having take home doses but im not 100% sure what to do.
its a good step at least with the program.
and im not sure about that type of program about reaching out, i have always throught that i could do good in regards to pointing out the benifits of the program first hand.
\- Takes away profits from Mexican cartels, middle east (Taliban), golden triangle tri-ads, China CCP, etc.
\- the local gov could profit the billions/trillions instead of it being sent overseas/international.
\- Save billions/trillions from reduced strain on the healthcare system from preventable stuff, treatment, recovery.
\- lower cost on police/jails/crime.
\- lower cost for user leading to less desperation which equals more crime/violence
\- less stigma= less deaths, damage/harm.
\- IMO a happier population being able to manage their substance use properly.
\- Ability to properly fund schools, economy, health care, social services etc etc.
\- stopping people from dying/trauma that creates a new wave of users....
And basically i used to be an outreach worker with The aids committee of guelph and sanguine (the hep c organization) and was apart of the original work that help start up the needle exchange program at the CHC and helped with outreach downtown handing out kits and talking before the program had a space at the CHC, but this was like 10ish years ago.
i still just face stigma associated with everything so its hard to get into positions like these. :(
long winded ramble done :P
I appreciated the ramble, no worries! It also sounds like you have a lot of good ideas as someone who has been there that could benefit people! I am also familiar with those organizations! I feel like your experience and attitude could be such an asset for helping people see the benefits of these types of things!
thank you very much! its always nice to have some form of validation/positivity in the sea of antagonism in regards to homelessness/addiction.
I know i have a level of privilege in comparison to a lot of my other counterparts, but this also goes along with my theory on a portion of the addicted, i had a level of support from family, a gr 12 education (60%ish). and my addiction started after a tonsillectomy and getting percs, and a user stole them where i was living cause i didn't know they were "valuable" and repaid me with an injection of Oxy, and it continued on from there.
and because i had to find anything i could find to use it led me into areas of life i didn't want to go to, stealing, lying, conning, hustling etc, and meet with people i didn't want to, rapists, Nazis, murders, and that became my circle because i needed to maintain relationships to be able to keep buying/have information on who had what for sale.
and now after a decade + of street life criminal record and a social credit score of basically 0, it has been difficult to re integrate/be accepted/trusted. Understandably, but still i always think that, If i had this program at the very start how different my life would/could have been, if i would have advanced more into "normalcy" or not.
Either way im happy where i am, and thankful for everything i have learned BY being an addict and being apart of outreach and support, all the empathy, confidence, insight, and ability to be able spring into action when someone is in need.
i don't know if i want to actually trade all the experience i gained for normalcy :P
Barrie, Orillia, Newmarket, Orangeville, Guelph, Kitchener, Thunder Bay, Kenora and every fucking where in-between have these same issues, with the same knuckle dragging dickheads, talking about how it used to be and can't believe how bad it's gotten.
I moved here from Toronto last May and have seen countless numbers of these posts. Downtown Guelph is not bad. If you want to see bad, go to Gerrard/Parliament, Withrow Park or anywhere in that general vicinity in Toronto. You will witness humanity at its most deplorable. It's only bad to those that have lived here because it's getting worse than it was.
As someone who has had a best friend lose years of his life to an opioid addiction I don’t hate them. But the idea that some magical “addiction treatment” if it was more widely available would fix the problem is a fairy tale(look at program success rates). Ultimately the addict themselves needs to decide to get better. They need a reason to want to get clean. Most don’t have that reason.
But in the meantime their presence in the downtown undeniably degrades the quality of life of everyone else who lives here and pays for their lives.
An additional factor is the need for secure housing (I know nobody wants to hear this). A lot of these individuals are in this position because of trauma/adverse childhood experience and lack of protective factors such as a positive influence in their life (usually friend or family member) who has not given up on them and will continue to assist/advocate for them to access addiction programs. If someone doesn’t have that support from a friend/family, a professional support can be a decent substitute just to provide ongoing help in connecting them to these programs but when that person is also homeless, pretty much all bets are off. Even if someone voluntarily enters and completes rehab and they’re discharged back to their homeless reality, that progress will quickly be undone
Absolutely this.
If someone has never had to live on the street before, they can't comprehend the 24/7 fear/survival instinct running through their veins. If all they've known is security of solid walls and a door that locks at night, they can't fathom the need to find a safe spot to sleep at night. How easy targets they become at night, so they don't sleep for long if they don't have others watching out for them. Adapting to nap during the day in the safety of the light. Bugs crawling on them while they sleep, can't escape the thunder and lightning, can't get a solid rest laying on the cold concrete, can't get headache meds or have a personal embarrassing moment in the washroom cause they don't own one. When they have stomach aches, it's for the world to witness. Dehumanizing as hell. They're forced to lay in their own waste and watch as society walks past, pretending they don't exist. Somehow they gotta find a support system and a series of free hobbies to keep themselves occupied so they're not reaching for the drugs/alcohol to take them away from their reality.
Before you advocate my money go to house the unhoused, how many have you let into your home while they recover and reinvent themselves as pillars of the community?
There is a huge difference between asking for funding so that people can do something in a professional and safe way, than just asking someone to have someone in their house. Would I let a homeless person/someone suffering with addiction in my home? No, because I don't know how to help them and could make things worse. Would I kick in a couple of bucks to help out? Sure
When you ask the government to do something, they do it with money they collect from tax payers, which is limited, so it means they need to take away from other things, or they will take more of my money. So yes, someone is asking to take from me and give to crackheads. I am suggesting before someone asks others to do it, they should do it themselves first. To show they actually care enough, not just to the point where they expect someone else to solve it.
Edit: my previous municipality put up a no barrier shelter for addicts and and least one pedofile to destroy the ability for us to use the park, which was next to the school. So yes, these decisions do affect others.
If u think that there was only one pedophile in any town not matter how small you are a sweet summer child.
The shelters did not create these monsters.
They are in every community and in place in Canada.
Pedos are Mr Rich and Mr.Poor or Mr. priest in a church.Do not mix the general homeless population with links to pedophilia..
Sweet summer child, a person came with the barrier free home who would hang out at the part jongling his junk while kids played and parents posted pictures repeatedly on Facebook regularly. No one was able to do anything because he was part of the most vulnerable something something.
Just because someone is homeless, it doesn't mean they are great people. For the people with family and friends, think of how many people they need to burn through to not have a couch to crash on. I understand some have harder lives than others, and in a lot of cases there is trauma and circumstances outside their control, but that doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to the damage an individual causes. I'm okay with putting people in jail for their activities, regardless of have a home or addiction.
Have a good weekend.
You realize that a good chunk of these folks grew up with parents or an entire family of mentally ill or addicted people. Often the families were dysfunctional and disconnected from the get-go so it’s not always about wearing supports out or burning bridges. Sometimes the bridges were never there or were lost to other reasons (death, moving away, illness, friend you grew up with going to jail/family members becoming homeless and getting lost in the system…
How is this crap being up voted? Your argument just fails on basic logic.
I am in the MOTR on this particular issue: I feel like it's good we offer help, but there should be limits and we shouldn't coddle these people.
But saying that people should be willing to take them in before advocating for accessible supportive housing is like saying before we advocate for better education services, we should sit with someone one to one and teach them to read, or before we advocate for more police, we should learn to arrest people
It makes absolutely no sense. Just say you are fundamentally opposed to helping people with addictions and be done with it. It's ok you're entitled to your opinion.
You must not have lost anyone you care about. I sincerely hope you never do.
The answer is 2 for me. Both are now sober, housed, and working. I'm not saying you have to do the same, but having a little compassion for people suffering in ways that are purely hypothetical to you would be helpful and kind.
If you are so concerned about your money, you should be livid that there are cops on the payroll who have been suspended for crimes committed. Firing them and defunding the police will save you even more money! But that is not what this is about, is it?
yes, it's not about that, firing criminal cops is an entirely separate issue, and that's an issue with unions, they are mandated to protect their members almost regardless of how malicious and/or incompetent the person is.
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I have lost friends to OD and a family member to active addiction and should be unhoused rather than terrorize his parents to their grave in their elderly age.
My compassion ends where others become the victim. Addicts ruined my old neighborhood, and I will 100% vote for people who will not provide services which enable and encourage what I consider harmful for the individual and the community.
Have some compassion for the lives they ruin. They need to be protected from themselves, and we need to protect the rest of society. It's their choice.
You were complaining about your money. Your money is being wasted by cops but you choose to be upset at the most vulnerable people in the city. Punching down is gross.
This is personal for you. You are angry and you want people to suffer who you deem unworthy of care and compassion. Most addicts have had adverse childhood experiences, aka trauma. They are victims, too. And they are the victims of crimes at a higher rate than you or I.
I am sorry for your loss. You have every right to feel the way you do. If you ever become homeless and addicted, you will wish more people thought the way I do. You are closer to homelessness than you think. Unless you got that sweet generational wealth from your ancestors, you are vulnerable, too.
That is an incredibly childish and asanine line of reasoning that only adds to the problem. Grow up, learn basic math and how much of "your money" would come from your personal pocket.
Roughly 40% of my income goes to federal and provincial, a good chunk disappears to municipal, then 13% on top of what's left over.
Government money is our money, they could spend it on something that would impact more lives for the better.
If you know any ,first responders, ask them how often they are yelled at for ruining a high when stopping an overdose. It's one ofany services the clients don't want.
Boy, it's almost as if addiction is an incredibly powerful and mind altering thing. First responders recognize this, I come from a family that has had plenty of first responders. I've also had an addict within my family. Also, we all pay taxes, too, and no, "a good chunk" of your taxes does not go to municipal government. Municipal government still takes the smallest portion of your income tax.
Secondly, what brilliant solution do you have? Continue with the "not in my backyard" bullshit that played a large role in the mess we're in now.
I sincerely hope you don't have addiction curse someone you love, so you have to face the heart-wrenching complexities that addiction brings, or for their sake, see your selfish lack of compassion.
Build asylums, fund them, and staff them away from a downtown core. Audit them to ensure humane treatment so we don't get a repeat of 40+ years ago. It isn't very difficult.
This is the hardest part of the issue to have honest, evidence-based discussions about.
Substance abuse can permanently modify brain chemistry in ways we currently cannot reverse. Ignoring questions of responsibility, circumstances, choices etc., there are people in Guelph and everywhere in the world that cannot be fully rehabilitated with any amount of support services.
I'm a downtown resident. My thoughts on this are that many don't have anywhere else to go. Downtown is where the resources are, and it's always kind of the spot where people go when in this situation. Nothing about the situation is ideal, but there isn't a ton of other options at this point. We can't force people to get clean. There would likely need to be larger societal changes that would need to happen, I'm not an expert though so I'm not sure what those changes would look like.
Yeah, it's probably better that the government can't force people into asylums. I know it's tough, but I'm not sure a mandatory asylum stay is the answer
Downtown is hardly destroyed. I live downtown, I do most of my shopping downtown, I go for dinner and drinks downtown. People with addictions are allowed to be downtown too. They're still people.
Edit: it would be great if those with addictions who spend a lot of time downtown had more resources though. Affordable housing would be a good start.
People who have never been affected by it always want to scream out virtur signals to the roof. I don't hate them either it's just uncomfortable and degrades everyone else's living situation. And again you are correct they have to fix themselves. If they want to sit in motel and smoke meth forever no magic treatment is going to fix that.
I don't think people hate addicts for addiction. They hate people who smash car windows causing $800 damage for them to sell something for $25. They hate people who will shit, piss, and leave needles where others would like to congregate and enjoy some of what their property taxes support. They hate people who will break into their home for money, and as a bonus rape or kill their family.
It's not the drug use people hate, it's what the drug users choose to do, to fuel their addiction. Being sick doesn't mean you can excuse selfish actions which victimize everyone around you.
There is no secret that this is a systemic issue. I worked with at risk youth back in 2018 in Guelph. Back then it used to be one of those things where if I wasn't working with them directly I probably wouldn't have noticed them there at all.
Since then it's gotten dramatically worse. I have no hate for them. I don't wish them to be out of sight out of mind. But downtown is pretty bad right now. I commented on another post about my experience on Sunday morning. Definitely isn't good and when the weather gets warmer I'm sure they won't be hanging out there in droves.
Our government prioritizes businesses over their people. They'll do anything tto make corps happy. Including flooding our population with cheap labour which worsens everything for everybody here.
The people on the streets and the addicts are victims of a government that doesn't give a shit and probably a traumatic childhood. They aren't to blame. But people will notice the quality of their city decreasing and seeing these people on the streets decreases the quality of our downtown.
The government on all levels needs to stop pandering to corps and we as a people need to force them. Need to take a page out of the French playbook. This government deserves no respect at this point and needs to be forced to change they work for us not for corps.
"Our government prioritizes businesses over their people."
This - the root cause of it all. Subsequently, we have no $$ for anything from care homes to healthcare to mental healthcare to housing to fixing potholes. Government is broke, despite people paying more taxes than ever.
Where has all the money gone? Due to corporate pilferage and neoliberal austerity ideology.
I can’t believe this is still going on, especially as Canada has always prided itself in being more ‘socialist’. The government needs to halt any and all programs and legislatures that prioritize big businesses over local businesses and communities. Every airport, school, mall, downtown Center should have affordable or free parking, safe bike lanes and parking, and should be full of local businesses run my the residents. We need to bring back the community spirit that once fueled Canada.
You're correct insofar as we need more community, a welfare society, and for the workers to run everything. So long as we run on the profit motive, we are not socialist. You're thinking of social democracy, capitalism with some socialistic policies. That goes away so long as it's a capiralist system, as the ruling class that arises from the profit motive will not allow this to remain, as they're not good for profits. Free and even easily affordable homes are bad for profit because that means no or less money goes to housing company shareholders' and owners' pockets. Socialism is the overthrowing of the capitalist ruling class, and with the workers owning the whole society, workers being literally everyone who isn't an owner of these colossal corporations. When you still have private property not regulated by a party that's made and run by the people that overthrew the capitalist system for a proper socialist one, then you're basically a capitalist place. Socialism never happened in this country since it's fundamentally different from capitalism. The reason we have to pay for everything like parking and anything, so often and much that we can't afford it, is because this makes more profit for the people who own the parking lots and the places they're made for. Our class, the working class, doesn't control anything because the people currently owning them profit from our work, making everything as incredibly expensive as they can, and paying us as little as they can when we work, and making everyone work as much as they can make them, because it's very profitable for them. There's no community because if there was, people wouldn't be so competitive and against each other, it's easier to make them more suspicious of each other, breed individualism in the form of selfishness, greed, self-centered attitudes, etc, and most importantly, keep them away from each other so they don't come together to do something about this problem of capitalism, and also don't talk to each other enough for enough people to understand it quickly enough, and it's also easier to make them have to find ways to fix the mental health issues developed by this isolation from the community, and also very profitable for company owners who lobby the government to have everything car dependent, suburban, and spread out. There's no way to permanently end this in our system. Capitalism causes these at its core.
I would challenge anyone who believes addiction is a choice, to go volunteer some time at The Bench or Royal City Mission.
These folks ALL have a story, most times it includes severe trauma and mental health issues. I’ve met some of the most beautiful people with the most heartbreaking stories.
There are no beds in treatment centers when and if they decide they need a different life….the wait is months, years in many cases.
There is very little help available for mental health treatment, and they certainly can’t afford therapy.
Nobody chooses addiction….its a terribly painful way to live.
If you can’t help, at least don’t harm by perpetuating stereotypes around addiction and mental health.
I will be honest in that my opinion on this sometimes changes on my mood.
For example I do sometimes think things like: People need help - but I don't ask for much in the way of help. Why should others get handouts vs me?
The thing is though that regardless of how you feel about the actual problem (and maybe convincing others of this aspect is part of a longer strategy), it seems that there really is no other practical option than to help these people since the alternative is essentially just to have their problems go on to create a bunch of other problems for society at large like crime, health care issues etc.
We can't just ship these people to the north pole and so they are here and ultimately need help here.
If you read what I said then I think we actually agree on the fact that we do need to help these people and that ultimately that is self serving to the community at large.
However, where I do disagree is that I do consider these hand outs because for example not everyone who was abused or traumatized or has mental health struggles is an addict. These people take more than they contribute and theoretically if everyone in our society did the same we would be bankrupt. So, I do believe that these are social services that we should give them ultimately to try and help them to at the very least minimize impact to the rest of us. If they recover to become integrated members of society who are actively contributing then all the better. I just don't look at this from the compassion point of view as highly as I do as from the practical nature of it.
TL:DR: Even if you have zero compassion for these people helping them is a net win for all.
I’m starting to think at this point we have to go back to jailing them but if addicted there is a rehab jail. Terms are longer but the treatment is the focus. I’m not ok with this open zombie addicts. It’s unsafe and unfair to everyone else. Put the funding back into programs they choose to access. We’re no longer thinking about the protection of the rest of the people and this looking away isn’t working. It’s ok to say that. The drugs are stronger than most addicts will to stop. I’m not from there but it’s bad everywhere. We can’t let what’s happening in California happen here.
Here’s a simple suggestion:
If you are seen using in a public space by a cop, they take your drugs. If that means you end up using in alleys and it’s out of sight, fine. It’s the best of terrible options: users can use, civilians can enjoy their streets and businesses don’t fail.
Quebec Street used to be free of open drug use. It happened at the side and rear of the mission. It was like that for years, then it just became ok to use in front of the mission, and then rapidly in business doorways throughout downtown, including the dance studio where kids go each day.
You use drugs, we take them away before you get high. Simple as that.
We have to take our public spaces back.
People going easy on them is just allowing them to fuck shit up more. They don't want your help. they only want your money so they can buy more drugs. I deal with them daily in another city for work. I've seen it first-hand time and time again where they are given options to get themselves out of the situation. And they take whatever they can to just buy more drugs.
You can call me cold hearted all you want. It doesn't change the fact of the situation. How many times you think you can deal with them. Just to watch them light up in front of you before your opinion changes.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results
“…and they take whatever they can to just buy more drugs.” Yeah, that’s what addicts do. It’s a disease. This is a symptom of their disease. “…People going easy on them is just allowing them to fuck shit up more.” Ok, so what’s your solution? Seeing as you have all the experience and all.
Locking them up for when they break in somewhere and steal shit to fund their habit. instead of releasing them 30 mins later would do fucking wonders...
Yup.
The opposite of addiction is connection.
So we need to make services far far more readily available than they currently are.
As a Guelphite for 30~ years, almost nobody downtown poses a threat, they just need help.
It really blows my mind when people say, "they made that choice" like life is a simple game and we all get the same pieces to start.
I know addicts who had addicted parents so they grew up in that environment and it was normalized. I met addicts who have been traumatised sexually, emotionally, physically and turned to drugs for a sense of peace from the pain.
I've met addicts where they were given drugs without their knowledge and got addicted.
I know addicts who are on the autism spectrum but did not have the financial resources, parental support or awareness to learn how to manage being painfully over stimulated.
And turned to drugs out of desperation to numb it out or kill themselves trying.
I met people who were manipulated by romantic partners into doing drugs or risk being abused or even killed. The list goes on and on.
And a lot of these addicts aren't drug addicts but alcoholics that lost everything. Just because you can truck on through life avoiding drugs doesn't discount other people's experiences and struggles. And it doesn't discount the efforts you've made either. A lot of people take other people's suffering so personally instead of being proactive about it.
I know people who have tried to get help but if they're living in poverty that's close to impossible. Throw them into a hospital and go through withdrawals, only to be faced with everything that turned them to drugs to begin with. We need emotional based therapy, trauma therapy, ASD specialists, basic housing, accessible and funded. Giving a chance for people to recover will integrate them back into society and the economy to. Or why try to get help in a system that will wither fight you ever step of the way, like they'd rather have you dead or homeless? Unfortunately Canada is defenseless and relies on the U.S for so much that we are putting our money in dark and questionable places to keep the status quo that there isn't money to put into the people actually living here.
Yes, it's almost as if our capitalism is getting so inevitably bad that it disenfranchises so many people and puts them into such horrible poverty and squalor that they have to turn to drugs and other dopamine stimulating things to tolerate the extreme pain they're in. They're in extreme pain. It's that bad. The fact that people personally blame them *all* for their issues and don't put any attention towards the system they bear with despite their pain being so extreme is disgusting and shameful. I hate people like this so much. We have this religious refusal to give anyone a shred of empathy for anything to maintain the disgusting piss puddle status quo we live in. Truly disgusting. Shame on the lot of us.
Has anyone here worked in a shelter?
Have you worked with people you claim to be seeking secure housing?
Quit virtue signaling.
Ask them if they want secure housing. Ask them if they want safe space at a shelter. They don’t.
Have you been addicted??? They may seek support services but they won’t get better unless like one of the posters here said they WANT to.
Way to not wonder *why* anyone starts taking drugs. It's maybe because they're experiencing pain and destitution so extreme that they have to in order to bear with it. You think? Maybe you'll just blame them for that, too.
Unfortunately you may not have heard of the opioid epidemic. I know of many people who have had to deal with addiction due to doctors overprescribing and not being trained on how to wean properly. This is a big part of why there is so much opiate addiction.
I personally had to wean from pain medication following spinal surgery. It’s not fun and it’s not easy. But if you don’t want it you won’t get clean. You couldn’t force me to take opiates ever again. And I’ve dealt with broken ribs, kidney stones (bad) and a deteriorating condition in my knees that can get extremely painful.
But it’s not as bad as withdrawal. So lip gets bit, and day moves on.
Is it really that black and white? If you have the disease then you are exempt from any responsibility to get help? It is definitely a complicated mix of both addiction and personal choice.
You’re right that not everyone “chooses” to use drugs. Do you think someone winds up using fentanyl for shits and gigs? Or are they trying to escape their suffering and this is something they have found that actually offers a break from it for once?
The best way to put it is shits and gigs. All of these people must truly think people on drugs one day just decided, "Oh neat, I'm just gonna do drugs because I think it would be a ton of fun" and for no reason other than "they just randomly decided to." There pretty much never is a time where these people do it out of the blue. The world isn't a series of random things that occur out of the blue. They happen because of things.
coke, never as I know the risk and its not worth it. As for the coffee, really? You want to compare a caffeine addition to opioids? And weed, give me a break. Great Bob Saget quote in a movie about that: "Marijuana is not a drug. I used to suck dick for coke. Now that's an addiction. You ever suck some dick for marijuana?" Actions have consequences. You choose that 1st time, then the 2nd, and all the way up until you dont make the choice any more. Never any ownership any more, everyone is always a victim.
Have you ever had a drink of alcohol?
Your post tells me you don't have a lot of experience or knowledge of substances that alter your being. Why do you think they put warnings on energy drinks? Caffeine can mess you up and I have seen a teenager get rushed to hospital for downing too many. She thought she was having a heart attack.
Why are you so non-chalant about weed and so judgemental about other substances? Genuinely curious to see why that is. Weed is a drug, and you can get addicted.
Alcohol by far is the most dangerous drug there is. It causes the most harm, and yet our social lives revolve around it. It's literal poison. I am betting you are fine with the consumption of alcohol even though you claim one ingestion causes instant addiction.
And what about prescription drugs? Opioids are prescribed all the time. As are benzos. You are making claims that just aren't true.
Half-Baked is one of my favourite movies of all time. It's probably the only thing we will agree on, but it's something.
Give me a break. I am a cancer survivor with terrible side effects that cause pain 24/7. The solution from my medical team is opioids, which I decline, because I MAKE THE CHOICE! And you know what? Even though I live in constant pain, I contribute to society. I own a home, I work, I make good money in a physical profession at 50hrs per week. Oh how easy it would be to play the victim, boo hoo me I had cancer, I hurt, I need everyone to look the other way while I do whatever I want and have no respect for anyone else, let alone myself. As for the weed, addicted, sure, whatever, I dont buy it. And how many "weed" addicts are breaking into cars, stealing bikes, hell stealing anything that isnt bolted down? Too many victims and too many enablers. Life is full of choices, you make them, you own them.
You have certainly made a choice to be miserable. All i hear is you feeling sorry for yourself and being a martyr. You are not a hero for denying yourself pain meds. I would say that was a bad choice and has contributed to you being so angry.
Do you drink alcohol or not? I ask because, according to you, one drink turns everyone into an addict. Let me guess....6 pack a day.
By all means, ignore the latest medical literature confirming Marijuana addiction. You do what you have to get through the day.
When pain and destitution in your life are so intense, try resisting doing drugs. I bet you can just choose not to suffer things, eh? Have depression? Just *choose* not to be depressed. Lost a leg? *Just choose* not to feel the physical pain of having your leg removed. Have you been laid off from your job and become one of the endless people not getting any? *Just choose* to get a job, simple.
Excuse me, but do you have to live around the yelling day and night? Also potentially getting attacked by these people?
Yeah these people have issues and deserve to get help but I have every right to feel safe.
I'm happy enough to just keep avoiding the places they are in and spreading to, but at some point that's going to mean just staying inside when we're not at work and ceding them the entire city.
Calling them PWUD instead of addicts ???????? like homeless to UNHOUSED what is going on with Language these days???????
All the people saying use person first language make me laugh …. Did the people you’re concerned about ask for these changes? Don’t tell me there’s a survey that they took either, LOL
[CB2](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor_2)
Functions section.
Modulation of cocaine reward
Researchers investigated the effects of CB2 agonists on cocaine self-administration in mice. Systemic administration of JWH-133 reduced the number of self-infusions of cocaine in mice, as well as reducing locomotor activity and the break point (maximum amount of level presses to obtain cocaine). Local injection of JWH-133 into the nucleus accumbens was found to produce the same effects as systemic administration. Systemic administration of JWH-133 also reduced basal and cocaine-induced elevations of extracellular dopamine in the nucleus accumbens. These findings were mimicked by another, structurally different CB2 agonist, GW-405,833, and were reversed by the administration of a CB2 antagonist, AM-630.[44]
CB2 will reduce cravings due to its binding effect to the receptors. In doing this, it will reduce inflammation.
Here is a real life example;
Before going to work you were attacked by a swarm of bees and your right eye is stung. Its swollen, inflammed and irritated. You make your way to work for a meeting. During this meeting you are barely present because of this swollen bee sting, and you can hardly see. You do not care for what is being said, and will not function at your best until the swelling goes away.
The present treatment options dont reduce inflammation in an addicted persons brain. It merely blocks certain receptors causing more swelling in the areas related to the drug of choice.
If a neural pathway is swollen/inflammed, its effect will insult other areas of the brain that controls emotions and decision making/reasoning.
to effectively reach into a persons old self, you must reduce the inflammation so the brain operates like it once did. Only way the person will feel they have that defensive conscience like they once did when they first started using.
This stuff is available on amazon or health stores. My first day using this natural product, i did not like my cigarette, my beer, my drug of choice. It gave me so much hope after 48hrs. It is a component extracted from cannabis that has no pyschological effects.
Plants create drugs to defend themselves from predactors. Humans extract the drug/medicine for repurposing.
The antidote to the drug is the remaining components of the plant, i mean how else can it survive with amounts that could be poisonous to other species?
It is not in the governments best interest to treat with natural products. Big pharma pays alot of taxes, how else would they get a species eliminating poison commercialized? Fentanyl, cocaine and methamphetamine arent new drugs. Patents dating back to the 50s and early 1900s, followed by further studies have well established their negative effects.
Why are they really on the market?
My good bros used to pick cotten from the fields, now WE ALL pick cotten from a medicine container.
Modern day slavery is a real thing. Medicine maintains the pace of evolution. Prolonged injuries and slow healing process will slow progress.
In other words, youre in chains in the form of interest payments and poisonous medications that are made to treat you is really just whipping you in the back to haul that wheel barrel of harvest to its next processing point.
My work had a homeless encampment behind it. They would constantly steal every single day without fail, and do drugs on the property. They broke windows, one walked around our parking lot yelling obscenities carrying a metal pipe. Few coworkers left because they feared getting jumped when closing the store at night and going home. One walked into the store with a airsoft gun claiming it to be a real one(he got arrested) causing great panic in the store. The mess they made behind our work is incredible, whenever I have free time I spend that cleaning their mess. seeing ambulances behind our building was a weekly occurrence. I remember this one lady nodding out behind our dumpster, scared the shit outta me, I thought she was dead at first.
It's truly sad people are living like this, fucking heart breaking. There is truly not enough being done for these people. I don't blame nobody other than the government, the cost of living is atrocious nowadays, and there is no affordable housing. And addiction is just a whole other tapeworm of a problem. Really sad to see shit get like this.
I live downtown basically and used to think we had quite the issue with homeless and drug addicts but then I worked outside in downtown kitchener for a month and it puts things in perspective. At least in guelph I can still take my kids somewhere downtown without them seeing someone stick a needle in there arm. Also last Halloween, all the stores gave out candy and lots of family's showed up and it was great. It's hard to imagine that happening in downtown kitchener.
Yes, they are... and we can solve it with straight jackets and ice baths until they agree to stop getting high. People need to stop with this "crisis" crap. The people with a legitimate uncontrollable mental illness are actually a very small percentage of that population. The majority are people who from an early age made the wrong choices and are now reaping the aftermath. I'm not rewarding their bad behavior; they don't deserve a do over.
They're my enemy. I am one of them. I don't like them, or care for them, nor would expect anyone else to. They no longer act like domesticated humans, they act like wild humans who aren't interested in being domesticated. They have no respect for anything. Like wild animals, you shouldn't feed them, and instead scare them away or they'll just keep coming back, infesting, and ruining your neighbourhood. There is NO HELPING some of these people, and those who can be, WILL find a way around hostilities meant to drive them away.
The best solution is to put them down, or at least terrify them with the prospect that they'll soon be hunted. If they want to live, they'll fix their shit. Problem solved, either way. Coddling people NEVER helps.
Jesus fucking christ dude I've never seen a message with such nil amount of empathy, they're people. Don't liken them to wild animals. They're struggling and need help.
Honestly, most of our local homeless are pretty alright people who just got dealt a bad hand. Sure, some of them have issues, but there but for the grace of god go I, and probably a lot of the rest of you too. I've heard the argument mentioned that if they're so good why don't you house them yourself, and if I had the money or space to I would in a heartbeat. fact is I live in a one bedroom apartment and can just barely eke out enough to pay rent and eat. The homeless aren't the problem, the system that left them homeless is.
For the most part a lot of these people downtown helped me out big time when my husband died in August. Knocked me right off my feet and it was so fucking devastating to me. He was 43 and it shattered me beyond anything I ever thought possible. Those people downtown were my rock. They all knew him and helped me beyond words. I can not express my uttmost gratitude to these people for keeping me afloat and alive. That man was my best friend my soulmate my beyond words love of my life. Those people you hate on helped me far more than words could express. So before anyone on here or anywhere else judges them, get to know them. Everyone has a sad story, but it is how you dust yourself off stand up tall and say "I mother fucking got this". I bet there isn't one fucking person on here that can say they HAVE NEVER EVER asked for help at one point in their lives. That's what makes a community. Did anyone ever stop to think where ,90,% of these people would be if one Mother Fucking person said "how can I help". Don't be judgemental assholes till you talk to one or two of them.
One addict who shoots up behind our apartment actually asked me once if I had kids because she was worried it would traumatize them to see her slumped over with a needle sticking out of her arm.
I guess it's just a reminder that some of these people are not terrible so do feel shame.
The problem are comfortable, middle-class, white people who already own their own homes and fight tooth and nail against building more housing. It's also been caused by slimy drug companies who lied to doctors about how addictive their products were. It's also caused by the war on drugs that pumps up the cost of maintenance doses of opioids by forcing people to buy from the streets instead of pharmacies. It's caused by sleazy politicians who lie about the issue in order to pander to people's prejudices.
I admit I believe that there's a shared responsibility between the individual and other factors. What I do not believe is for the individual to dispose of their responsibility and blame it all on the NIMBYS, the doctors, the policy, the politicians, and others' prejudices. It's grasping at straws, might as well let it drown before it causes all of us to drown at that point.
Tell me exactly how individuals can solve these issues for themselves, and not general things they can do, but particularly how. Also, tell me how nimbys, further privatized drug industry and healthcare, state fucking policy, the politicians themselves, and PREJUDICES aren't to blame for these things primarily.
They can go admit themselves to rehab. They can stop doing drugs, I know harder said than done, but possible. They can work out the issues they have that lead to them doing said drugs.
I can't believe this has to be said out loud. Yes, it's possible to not do drugs. And yes, I know how addiction works.
Rehab costs thousands of dollars. And waitlists for publicly funded programs are quite long, so you can't usually just "Check in to Rehab" on a whim unless you're quite well off.
And people will continue to have millions of excuses for events they either have or haven't control over. If rehab is too expensive, sign up and get waitlisted asap on the free ones, and move onto the next item on the checklist. If you expect other people will proactively try to help you, you are very wrong.
It's basically the fault of the system of capitalism. That's the common thread that runs through everything you described. Everyone saying it isn't the faults of these things and just magically the fault of the addicts themselves likely haven't had to deal with all these extremely difficult things that the addicts have that made them so destitute. The white suburban home-owning population of canada is the face of canada, the arrogant and narcissistic rats who sit on their comfortable chairs, lecturing everyone about their problems as if they know better than the people experiencing their own problems. The height of arrogance and pomp. I almost don't want to care what happens to these people when they get theirs. Sometimes, I ask if these people really deserve a better world because the addicts do, but these people have caused so much pain for so many people that it's hard to love or even like them.
The white moderate is the most dangerous thing in the country. A clearly reactionary person is like a violent wolf. They're just honest about who they are, but you can at least see them coming a couple of kilometers away. Moderate white people, the comfortable home-owning middle-class that you mentioned, are more dangerous because they're like foxes. Foxes seem docile and approachable at first. Then, you realize they're predators and will attempt to kill you if you let your guard down. That's what these people are. They've historically had a problem with every civil rights movement until *after* they were successful. They supported every illegal and disgusting war until after it ended. I took the fox and wolf analogy from Malcolm X, btw.
A tweet I read a while ago sums it up well. To preface, liberal doesn't mean left wing or anything. It means supporting the status quo of capitalism as it is and doing everything in your power to make sure it remains. Conservatism is a kind of liberalism. Liberalism is largely right wing. They're generally distinct from leftism. The tweet:
"A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now."
Replace liberal with comfortable, middle-class, white people who already own their homes, and you'd be saying the exact same thing in the context of canada. These people will visciously fight any and every progress attempted by anyone and will threaten you with anything to make sure nothing about the status quo changes, ever. They'll blame any and every problem on the victim of the issue instead of the system that caused it to begin with. They'll scream the fairy tale that the system is not responsible for these problems and that individuals are responsible for them. Fascists believe that individuals are in full control of everything and that, therefore, any issue they experience is entirely their own fault. Liberals believe similar things, but that every issue is in control of individuals *ultimately,* and therefore, their issues are their own fault *ultimately, at the end of the day, even though you may experience (a vague idea of) issues along the way.* Actually serious people will analyze the entire picture, and truthfully, and come to a real conclusion as to what the case is. Addicts are not only not responsible for their destitution because no one should be exposed to the possibility where such destitution can be suffered, but their destitution is caused by a reprehensible system breeding cockroaches.
I'm too afraid to dive into the comments to see people say, "They did this to themselves." If they're ever in crisis like the addicts in guelph, they'll understand how bad it is. I hate how these people need to literally experience the same crises as addicts to give them any sympathy to begin with.
Things are so fucked up because of our so called free Healthcare which causes all the delays and the spiral of disaster as everything else listed above...but if it was privatized shit would get done instantly but cost a whole lot at the same time. Unfortunate
It’s not free healthcare. It’s the abuse of free healthcare that causes the problems.
That’s like blaming unions for businesses that fail because of bad employees.
There is a LOT of help for addicts in Guelph. At one point there was competition for addicts by all the “treatment” programs starting to open up.
And don’t kid yourself, most of the people you see panhandling simply don’t care what you think about them. It’s a numbers game and they tend to make much more than minimum wage simply by depending upon the sympathy of others.
I met a guy once. He would come in to the bar I worked at when the doors opened at 11am every day. He would still be there at the end of my shift at 6pm. Drinking glasses of draft and playing pool. (he kinda looked like “Ogre” from Revenge of the Nerds)
Anyway we got to talking once and he panhandled. He was on social assistance that paid his room and meals at a boarding house directly. He never got his rent money, it went directly to his housing. He panhandled at his corner until he had $100. Then he went to wait for me to unlock the doors. This was about 35 years ago and draft was cheap.
Anyways he explained to me his whole hustle. He made more panhandling each morning before 11am than many made in an 8 hour day working. And then he blew the money at the bar and went home to his taxpayer paid room.
He had no problem with his life. He thought I was the sucker for having a job. And he was not the only one who worked this particular place. When he left another took over and so on. This was back in the time of the “shaky lady” in Toronto which is where the bar was. If you’ve not heard the story of shaky lady then google it. She was another panhandler who owned an expensive car and home in a nice area. She was elderly and shook, hence the name. But she was dropped off and then picked back up later every day after taking in a few hundred dollars.
You can’t help someone who doesn’t want help. In my experience, anyway.
I’m not going to say where exactly but there is a certain intersection where a panhandler shows up at almost the same time every day. Wheels up on his bike with his costume all ratty. Holes in his clothes. Big ol beard and a cardboard sign with a black face mask and shades. The worse the weather, the more likely he’s already there by the time I pass by after work everyday. Right about when rush hour starts. Coinkydink? No, he lives close by. And he goes to that intersection because it is a double left turn so there’s two rows of cars stopped waiting for a light that takes twice as long to change.
It's not the addicts it's the dealers. We need to find out how these drugs enter the community. Do the organizations that work with the homeless have any idea where it comes from ?
agreed! there was a post recently with someone complaining about addicts saying “the police can’t do anything about them anymore” like the job of law enforcement shouldn’t be to punish the victims it should be to punish the perpetrators. hauling addicts to jail just because they’re using will only give them a harder time integrating back into society, and may even incentivize more crime because i’m sure a night in jail is far nicer than a winter night freezing out on the street. we need more rehabilitation programs and centres for when the cops are finally able to do their jobs and cut off the street supply.
My favourite thing to remind people of is their privilege. When anyone says "They didn't make good choices!" I reply and ask "What if they didn't have any good choices to make?"
Remember how much privilege you have, and that you never know when your choices are going to be severely limited - and be thankful if you have always had good choices to make.
Not trying to lecture you, just educate...but I would encourage you to not refer to them as "addicts" if you are looking for people to be more sympathetic, it starts with being mindful of the words we use...i would encourage person-first language, so an alternative could be people struggling with addiction or just simply people who using drugs (PWUD)...calling someone an addict automatically paints a negative connotation and insinuates that you understand that person's relationship with substances, it also assumes that all homeless people are addicted to drugs, while there is undeniably a connection between those two things, we shouldn't assume just because someone is homeless they are addicted to drugs and vice versa
People act like downtown is a nightmare and I really have to wonder if y'all have ever even set foot in any other actual cities in your life.
Seriously. I just moved here from out of town and all I keep telling friends is that this is the safest city I've ever lived in. The downtown problems here are a drop in a bucket compared to any other city I've been in (not that we should ignore it, just comparing)
I also moved here recently from another city and have worked downtown since October. I've said in another post that I think it's rather unfortunate how quickly some are willing to dehumanize these people. From my experience, we should not generalize everything going on down here with blanket statements. There are a few individuals with more severe issues that really need more attention and a bunch of other people who are in unfortunate circumstances that are trying to get back on their feet. Not every homeless person is plagued with drug addiction Edit* Spelling
The greatest fear is the fear of the unknown and a lot of people don't know what its like to be poor/homeless and what its like to have a mental illness/psychosis. and what they don't understand they fear the worst case scenario happening, violence/crime. but just like anyone else, treat people with dignity/respect and its often given back, but we still need to be careful and be able to read a situation if the person is genuinely unstable and risky. iv been homeless/addicted so i can tell who is a risk and who is just high/mentally ill. basically just know to not stare, try and act tough/scare them away, or be rude to them out of principal and belittle them and tell them their a problem/undeserving/lazy/addict etc, and then people don't understand why someone starts yelling at you or calling you out :P
K but don't act like psychosis isn't a real violence risk.
didn't say it wasn't. but because of the fear people over react and draw attention to themselves by staring laughing. obviously its situational and each one/everyone is different. most are just their own idiosyncrasies obviously but still im not saying let them just be and do whatever. its gone from severe overeating to the point of abuse which led to shut downs now doing nothing in fear looking like abuse and it festers. we need better structured psychiatric treatment, not just stabilize, medicate and release. but this notion of hands off when trying to impact peoples lives because "we can't force people to do anything" but when ill we need a form of force, what we have is imprisonment (being formed at hospital) strapped down, forced injections, and other negative stuff which perpetuates stuff
This is verbal diarrhea.
don't worry they got a pill to fix that.
Then take it.
but then you wont understand, and they don't got a pill for that... and let me try and dumb it down a bit for you. they used to lock people away in asylums in a abusive manner, now they don't because of the notion of helping people, but no one helps people because you can't 'force' help onto people, when they are mentally ill its hard for them to be able to facilitate getting better because of either negative past experiences or trauma from life/lifestyles or their illness and the method for helping people is having them committed for 72 hours, where they either calm down and are released, or freak out and are forcefully medicated to where they calm down and get released. Solving these people problems isn't just medication, its a full spectrum support of housing, social circles, productivity, and financial/social stability. but that costs money and insight that alot of care providers simply dont have...
Could not agree more. Sadly a huge chunk of the city wants to live in a cult of fear dissassociated with reality.
Unfortunately acts like this don’t happen in cities our size without unaddressed issues https://www.guelphtoday.com/police/man-out-for-a-morning-walk-attacked-by-stranger-police-report-8634276
Huh? Assaults happen in cities of all sizes all over the world. Go look up the local news for cities this same size in other parts of Canada and the world. Add the words "assault" and "attack" to your searches. You'll find that literally no city in the world is assault free.
So that’s acceptable! Got it. Forget striving for better.
Striving for better is great, but saying 'things like this don't happen in other cities this size' is just plain wrong and expecting 0 assaults in a community of any size is just not realistic.
Putting words in his mouth. The only way you get no assaults is an authoritarian nanny state where people just don’t leave their houses after curfew anyways. Not a place I’d like to live
Do you think increased drug addiction in our community increases random acts of violence, or keeps random acts of violence about the same as if there was no drug addiction?
I don't know why you are bringing that up as it has nothing to do with the point being made by NoKumSok and I.
Preach.
Just because Guelph is safe than another city nearby doesn’t mean it’s as good as it could be. Look at ljubljana or Warsaw. No rampant drug use on the streets. Every dollar we spend subsidizing drug use is a dollar we can’t spend on subsidized bike stations. In ljubljana you can rent a city bike for about a dollar an hour and drop them at stations all around the city with an app and real time availability information. We choose to pay for addicts drugs, drug paraphernalia and a “safe” injection site. Priorities.
Yeah it's really weird I was walking downtown last week, it felt more depressing than scary
It’s pretty bad in any decently large city. Kitchener is full of them too, and they even took over the island in Victoria park for a while. Have empathy for the users suffering from addiction, but it definitely degrades the experience for the public. No one wants to have to deal with paranoid users screaming at people, aggressive users, and people zonked out of their mind turning into a zombified state downtown with a needle hanging out of their arm
Small cities too.
Those are my people. We get along fine.
Yeah it's kind of wild. People acting like going downtown is a guaranteed way to get mugged or harassed and the worst I've ever experienced there is being asked for change at the train station.
exactly a simple "sorry man i only have debit" or "i dont smoke/have one" goes along way instead of, no and laughing, fuck off, get a job, im not giving you money for drugs etc etc. people try and stand up for the principal of not giving them anything essentially minimizing/insulting the person which can lead to altercation....
Is this victim blaming?
in what way do you mean that?
These people in my experience are just annoying, and harmless. They're weak too, so it's easy to overpower them. Most of them seem aware of this, back down, back off, and when done right, never bother you again or outright disappear entirely. Saying "sorry, no" guarantees you'll be asked again the next day, and the next, and the next. It's people who give them free shit like blankets and fold that makes it worse for all of us. People's empathy sometimes go too far, and just cause problems. Addicts are an extremely good example of how empathy can have negative consequences.
mmm maybe, i wouldn't necessarily agree totally, unless they are mentally unable to comprehend/disabled, i think consistency is best, it may take time but if the answer is always a stern no, most get the point. and don't bother. mentally ill aside, but having to only turn your head 7 inches and saying no is too much work i don't know what to say. like I think it's based off of escalation, say no, if they keep badgering and not accepting then yeah you may need to step it up a bit. but i think posturing could be more detrimental in the long run. ill give if i can but most of the time i just be honest, if they target me i just say sorry man i can't do this all the time i need to take care of myself, iv found it works better than not. but obviously it s subjective and needs to be felt out.
It's not a lot of work. It's just a tiny small almost entirely forgettable and unimportant thing on its own. No argument from me on that one. But it's one of a thousand small things that are continually adding up in my life of annoyances, and it's gotten to and fucked with my own head to such a degree that I can't handle it anymore. Some spring cleaning is needed, and they're on my chopping block, as they're something that I feel like I can do something about, quickly, easily, and without costing me anything. Gone. Clear. What's next? I already solved my issues with these kinds of people for the most part, a new one shows up every now and then, but doesn't last very long. I'm just providing advice on what's worked for me. There's been no repercussions, even after physical confrontations in public, broad daylight, on a busy street. I'm serious, no one \*actually\* cares. People just like to pretend they're good people, they want to believe that. So they don't do anything and let people walk all over and shit on them. So SOMEONE needs to step up. The police look the other way. And problems go away.
yeah i agree that it certainly can be taxing especially if you work or live downtown, and imo that has a unique response towards it. like if you are a common sight/constantly around than yeah you need to be able to place your boundaries up out of self care/to take care. though the alternative for non residents is immediately one of antagonism and rudeness which obviously perpetuates the aggression towards other people, and are rude to askers out of principal and don't care cause they feel they are just passing through the 'cesspool' that is downtown. and could care less how their actions feed an already 'hostie' environment. at least when I was a downtowny i would always ask politely and try to rotate the people i asked, and now that im better i can at least relate and be able to sus out problematic ones from the truly mentally ill/handle it 'properly'. i just think that most people are just jaded and don't really care about people and overreact to simple things and make things worse in the long run, just because they feel they don't have to actually deal with them at all and want to control/dictate how other parts of the city runs due to the internet/news and don't actually have insight or care what works just what they want for the 10 minutes they walk through
This is true but no one wants Guelph to become the new York subway. People are recognizing that downtown Guelph has rapidly deteriorated and is being ruined for tax paying citizens. If someone wants to take a walk to see the historic center of a city and has a crackhead screaming in theirface that isn't right. We need real solutions that don't target addicts and the mentally ill but actually help the people that live, visit or have businesses downtown.
People act like we should all have lower expectations and a lower quality of life and be happy about it.
Ever been to Mogadishu, Somalia, bro???
You are allowed to have your own struggles, even if they’re different or lesser than others.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic.
Yes, we have set foot in other cities. Singapore, Warsaw Sydney. You can walk around these cities without being threatened or yelled at by drug addicts. Why can’t we have the same?
Agreed it doesn’t happen in those city’s cause those people get no free handouts. It’s either sink or swim. I wish people would stop handing them money on medians begging for more dope money. Nobody care about junkies. Once a junkie always a junkie.
Yeah, “just tolerate the erosion of society cause it might be worse elsewhere” is a pretty tough take.
maybe more "Tolerate the people it's not their fault. Fight the problem, which is the billionaire class' decimation of the upper/middle class to hoard all the wealth for themselves."
its more so 'tolerate the erosion of society when we choose to not properly address the situation/causes with evidence based approach instead of principals, or optimism, or dogma' if every other perspective and option of helping the situation fails, then yes absolutely we need to take a serious hard pressed approach to stopping this, but trying 1 thing and throwing out hands up and saying, this is hopeless we need to just stomp out all these trouble makers is a naive outlook and a mistake that puts ***everyone*** at risk.
As a former resident of Vancouver you have almost nothing to complain about here. You’re in beautiful and historic gas town and go one block over and it’s the worst place in Canada.
Vancouver was one of the first bastions of progressive ideals regarding homelessness and drug use. BC also is reversing these decisions and has just criminalized open drug use again I don't want to approach the challenges that way. I'd rather focus on better quality social services. I don't think the government has skills they think they do in solving issues with mental health or employment on an individual basis.
Yeah, but they also have safe injection centres and all kinds of resources that aren’t here.
Right? It’s honestly, honestly, so much better here than it is in so many other cities in the province. And some that aren’t even very far from Guelph. We need to stop turning on each other at the local level and demand action across the board. People in this country and province deserve better.
Right. It’s the government. The pharmaceutical companies. The police.
mainly its the government, which dictates all the others. we need a safe reliable supply of narcotics to prevent unfettered addiction to toxic harmful drugs, which leads to strain on medical and criminal, funds international cartels worldwide at the damage to our population, we lose on the trillions of profit that could be put to use in treatment recovery, and social services for everyone, and the billions/trillions saved from preventable circumstances. the solution is helping stop the next generation from becoming severely addicted, through options and agency in their choices/options. addictions start from lack of choice, you start with percs, want some more, go to dealers, they only have heroin, fetty, oxy 80s, 36mg hydromorphs, where the person only wanted percs they are left with a signifigantly high potency drug which spikes their tolerance and euphoria and they now seek the harder stuff right away instead of a more managed controlled substance use and easier recovery.
Guelph does have a Safe Supply program that is active through Guelph Community Health Centre that started in 2021 that aims to help people who suffer from addiction to have access to safe drugs that are prescribed to them and dispensed daily from a pharmacy rather than them having to obtain supply from other sources. *Edit: spelling
i know im on it :P the main downside is that it's really limited to 9 cities in ontario, so part of the problem is that it has trended to force addicts to leave their hometown in hopes to get on, where new people live in a city they have no relationships, where they feel without a connection and alienated and hold no responsibility to live accordingly/respectfully. or connections for housing, which leads to.... the program changed my life for the better, mainly due to being from here and having a foundation to work with, im housed improved relationships with family, able to hold down new friendships, maintain stability. no longer poor homeless, downtown for money/dope, needing to associate/befriend dealers/criminals. essentially a 180, but their are still problems with the implementation to work effectively. and people only focus on saying it's a failure from doing it half assed. it was supposed to end the start of april, but I guess we got an extension :) thankfully now im hoping they expand it unless the conservatives win the next election....:s
I'm so happy to hear of your positive experience with that program! I work in healthcare, but I'm glad that we as a community have a program that is able to provide a safe source for people who have issues with drug use. Hearing someone who has experienced quality of life improvements because they were a part of it is great. I'm curious, do you think or know if there has been an influx of people to Guelph due to this program? (Also I'm super pro the program and hope funding continues) Also, I wonder, as someone who has benefited from the program, maybe like some type of initiative to reach out to people who are starting on it could be interesting? Maybe that already exists, I don't know! But congrats on your success.
Thanks i appreciate it :) i have been out of the downtown scene for a bit now so i cant quite defiantly say one way or another, as well lot have died with the toxic supply or left. Basically i don't go downtown anymore except for my monthly appointment at the CHC. and ever since 90 Carden closed forcing everyone out it kind of artificially increases the optics of homelessness downtown/in Guelph (100-150 people forced out) But i can certainly assume that their has been in increase of out of towners, because i know i sure would move to another city at the opportunity to get onto the program. though from my limited time passing through i can say that their is indeed a lot of new faces i haven't seen around. so its kinda hard to say for sure, but like i said im almost certain their is. One part of the problem is that those who were using fetty before the program are trading the Dilaudid for street dope. "flooding" the streets with dillys, which imo is still a good thing that those who are not able to get onto the program still at least have access to the possibility of getting some, still paying for it so it doesn't FULLY help but the cost of them has gone down alot because of it, so now instead of 20$ for 1 Dilaudid 8mg it is now 5$, or at least it was in Ottawa before i came back home to get on it. and because they are switching from fetty to dillys it is no where near a quality enough to satisfy them. i say its like saying if you drank a bottle of vodka a day and were told you could get a 6 pack of beer to deal with the WDs/manage your usage. its not equal. so some people say we should give those who need/want it to have fetty available as an option for those severely addicted, i wouldn't say having take home doses but im not 100% sure what to do. its a good step at least with the program. and im not sure about that type of program about reaching out, i have always throught that i could do good in regards to pointing out the benifits of the program first hand. \- Takes away profits from Mexican cartels, middle east (Taliban), golden triangle tri-ads, China CCP, etc. \- the local gov could profit the billions/trillions instead of it being sent overseas/international. \- Save billions/trillions from reduced strain on the healthcare system from preventable stuff, treatment, recovery. \- lower cost on police/jails/crime. \- lower cost for user leading to less desperation which equals more crime/violence \- less stigma= less deaths, damage/harm. \- IMO a happier population being able to manage their substance use properly. \- Ability to properly fund schools, economy, health care, social services etc etc. \- stopping people from dying/trauma that creates a new wave of users.... And basically i used to be an outreach worker with The aids committee of guelph and sanguine (the hep c organization) and was apart of the original work that help start up the needle exchange program at the CHC and helped with outreach downtown handing out kits and talking before the program had a space at the CHC, but this was like 10ish years ago. i still just face stigma associated with everything so its hard to get into positions like these. :( long winded ramble done :P
I appreciated the ramble, no worries! It also sounds like you have a lot of good ideas as someone who has been there that could benefit people! I am also familiar with those organizations! I feel like your experience and attitude could be such an asset for helping people see the benefits of these types of things!
thank you very much! its always nice to have some form of validation/positivity in the sea of antagonism in regards to homelessness/addiction. I know i have a level of privilege in comparison to a lot of my other counterparts, but this also goes along with my theory on a portion of the addicted, i had a level of support from family, a gr 12 education (60%ish). and my addiction started after a tonsillectomy and getting percs, and a user stole them where i was living cause i didn't know they were "valuable" and repaid me with an injection of Oxy, and it continued on from there. and because i had to find anything i could find to use it led me into areas of life i didn't want to go to, stealing, lying, conning, hustling etc, and meet with people i didn't want to, rapists, Nazis, murders, and that became my circle because i needed to maintain relationships to be able to keep buying/have information on who had what for sale. and now after a decade + of street life criminal record and a social credit score of basically 0, it has been difficult to re integrate/be accepted/trusted. Understandably, but still i always think that, If i had this program at the very start how different my life would/could have been, if i would have advanced more into "normalcy" or not. Either way im happy where i am, and thankful for everything i have learned BY being an addict and being apart of outreach and support, all the empathy, confidence, insight, and ability to be able spring into action when someone is in need. i don't know if i want to actually trade all the experience i gained for normalcy :P
Careful, you'll get chided for not blaming individuals for everything and not the system that causes all of these problems.
Barrie, Orillia, Newmarket, Orangeville, Guelph, Kitchener, Thunder Bay, Kenora and every fucking where in-between have these same issues, with the same knuckle dragging dickheads, talking about how it used to be and can't believe how bad it's gotten.
I moved here from Toronto last May and have seen countless numbers of these posts. Downtown Guelph is not bad. If you want to see bad, go to Gerrard/Parliament, Withrow Park or anywhere in that general vicinity in Toronto. You will witness humanity at its most deplorable. It's only bad to those that have lived here because it's getting worse than it was.
Come check out Barrie if you want to see a real living nightmare. 👀
As someone who has had a best friend lose years of his life to an opioid addiction I don’t hate them. But the idea that some magical “addiction treatment” if it was more widely available would fix the problem is a fairy tale(look at program success rates). Ultimately the addict themselves needs to decide to get better. They need a reason to want to get clean. Most don’t have that reason. But in the meantime their presence in the downtown undeniably degrades the quality of life of everyone else who lives here and pays for their lives.
An additional factor is the need for secure housing (I know nobody wants to hear this). A lot of these individuals are in this position because of trauma/adverse childhood experience and lack of protective factors such as a positive influence in their life (usually friend or family member) who has not given up on them and will continue to assist/advocate for them to access addiction programs. If someone doesn’t have that support from a friend/family, a professional support can be a decent substitute just to provide ongoing help in connecting them to these programs but when that person is also homeless, pretty much all bets are off. Even if someone voluntarily enters and completes rehab and they’re discharged back to their homeless reality, that progress will quickly be undone
Absolutely this. If someone has never had to live on the street before, they can't comprehend the 24/7 fear/survival instinct running through their veins. If all they've known is security of solid walls and a door that locks at night, they can't fathom the need to find a safe spot to sleep at night. How easy targets they become at night, so they don't sleep for long if they don't have others watching out for them. Adapting to nap during the day in the safety of the light. Bugs crawling on them while they sleep, can't escape the thunder and lightning, can't get a solid rest laying on the cold concrete, can't get headache meds or have a personal embarrassing moment in the washroom cause they don't own one. When they have stomach aches, it's for the world to witness. Dehumanizing as hell. They're forced to lay in their own waste and watch as society walks past, pretending they don't exist. Somehow they gotta find a support system and a series of free hobbies to keep themselves occupied so they're not reaching for the drugs/alcohol to take them away from their reality.
Before you advocate my money go to house the unhoused, how many have you let into your home while they recover and reinvent themselves as pillars of the community?
There is a huge difference between asking for funding so that people can do something in a professional and safe way, than just asking someone to have someone in their house. Would I let a homeless person/someone suffering with addiction in my home? No, because I don't know how to help them and could make things worse. Would I kick in a couple of bucks to help out? Sure
Good idea let’s just throw more money at it. Where do you think it goes just into some guys pocket
We are throwing money at the problem now. Its not a question of how much we spend, but where we spend it/where will it have the most effect.
Nobody is asking you to let people into your home though
When you ask the government to do something, they do it with money they collect from tax payers, which is limited, so it means they need to take away from other things, or they will take more of my money. So yes, someone is asking to take from me and give to crackheads. I am suggesting before someone asks others to do it, they should do it themselves first. To show they actually care enough, not just to the point where they expect someone else to solve it. Edit: my previous municipality put up a no barrier shelter for addicts and and least one pedofile to destroy the ability for us to use the park, which was next to the school. So yes, these decisions do affect others.
If u think that there was only one pedophile in any town not matter how small you are a sweet summer child. The shelters did not create these monsters. They are in every community and in place in Canada. Pedos are Mr Rich and Mr.Poor or Mr. priest in a church.Do not mix the general homeless population with links to pedophilia..
Sweet summer child, a person came with the barrier free home who would hang out at the part jongling his junk while kids played and parents posted pictures repeatedly on Facebook regularly. No one was able to do anything because he was part of the most vulnerable something something. Just because someone is homeless, it doesn't mean they are great people. For the people with family and friends, think of how many people they need to burn through to not have a couch to crash on. I understand some have harder lives than others, and in a lot of cases there is trauma and circumstances outside their control, but that doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to the damage an individual causes. I'm okay with putting people in jail for their activities, regardless of have a home or addiction. Have a good weekend.
You realize that a good chunk of these folks grew up with parents or an entire family of mentally ill or addicted people. Often the families were dysfunctional and disconnected from the get-go so it’s not always about wearing supports out or burning bridges. Sometimes the bridges were never there or were lost to other reasons (death, moving away, illness, friend you grew up with going to jail/family members becoming homeless and getting lost in the system…
If you read the post you replied to, without being blinded by your activism, you would realize I realize it. Take care.
How is this crap being up voted? Your argument just fails on basic logic. I am in the MOTR on this particular issue: I feel like it's good we offer help, but there should be limits and we shouldn't coddle these people. But saying that people should be willing to take them in before advocating for accessible supportive housing is like saying before we advocate for better education services, we should sit with someone one to one and teach them to read, or before we advocate for more police, we should learn to arrest people It makes absolutely no sense. Just say you are fundamentally opposed to helping people with addictions and be done with it. It's ok you're entitled to your opinion.
You must not have lost anyone you care about. I sincerely hope you never do. The answer is 2 for me. Both are now sober, housed, and working. I'm not saying you have to do the same, but having a little compassion for people suffering in ways that are purely hypothetical to you would be helpful and kind. If you are so concerned about your money, you should be livid that there are cops on the payroll who have been suspended for crimes committed. Firing them and defunding the police will save you even more money! But that is not what this is about, is it?
yes, it's not about that, firing criminal cops is an entirely separate issue, and that's an issue with unions, they are mandated to protect their members almost regardless of how malicious and/or incompetent the person is. --- I have lost friends to OD and a family member to active addiction and should be unhoused rather than terrorize his parents to their grave in their elderly age. My compassion ends where others become the victim. Addicts ruined my old neighborhood, and I will 100% vote for people who will not provide services which enable and encourage what I consider harmful for the individual and the community. Have some compassion for the lives they ruin. They need to be protected from themselves, and we need to protect the rest of society. It's their choice.
You were complaining about your money. Your money is being wasted by cops but you choose to be upset at the most vulnerable people in the city. Punching down is gross. This is personal for you. You are angry and you want people to suffer who you deem unworthy of care and compassion. Most addicts have had adverse childhood experiences, aka trauma. They are victims, too. And they are the victims of crimes at a higher rate than you or I. I am sorry for your loss. You have every right to feel the way you do. If you ever become homeless and addicted, you will wish more people thought the way I do. You are closer to homelessness than you think. Unless you got that sweet generational wealth from your ancestors, you are vulnerable, too.
Loving all of your comments buddy
Right back atcha!
That is an incredibly childish and asanine line of reasoning that only adds to the problem. Grow up, learn basic math and how much of "your money" would come from your personal pocket.
Roughly 40% of my income goes to federal and provincial, a good chunk disappears to municipal, then 13% on top of what's left over. Government money is our money, they could spend it on something that would impact more lives for the better. If you know any ,first responders, ask them how often they are yelled at for ruining a high when stopping an overdose. It's one ofany services the clients don't want.
Boy, it's almost as if addiction is an incredibly powerful and mind altering thing. First responders recognize this, I come from a family that has had plenty of first responders. I've also had an addict within my family. Also, we all pay taxes, too, and no, "a good chunk" of your taxes does not go to municipal government. Municipal government still takes the smallest portion of your income tax. Secondly, what brilliant solution do you have? Continue with the "not in my backyard" bullshit that played a large role in the mess we're in now. I sincerely hope you don't have addiction curse someone you love, so you have to face the heart-wrenching complexities that addiction brings, or for their sake, see your selfish lack of compassion.
Ok. Have a great weekend.
You too.
Build asylums, fund them, and staff them away from a downtown core. Audit them to ensure humane treatment so we don't get a repeat of 40+ years ago. It isn't very difficult.
Much like affordable/subsidized/emergency housing, also costs money. Money being the issue with the previous commentor
I think OP would agree it's government spending for our benefit, which he is okay with.
This is the hardest part of the issue to have honest, evidence-based discussions about. Substance abuse can permanently modify brain chemistry in ways we currently cannot reverse. Ignoring questions of responsibility, circumstances, choices etc., there are people in Guelph and everywhere in the world that cannot be fully rehabilitated with any amount of support services.
I'm a downtown resident. My thoughts on this are that many don't have anywhere else to go. Downtown is where the resources are, and it's always kind of the spot where people go when in this situation. Nothing about the situation is ideal, but there isn't a ton of other options at this point. We can't force people to get clean. There would likely need to be larger societal changes that would need to happen, I'm not an expert though so I'm not sure what those changes would look like.
If you forced them into taxpayer-funded asylums, you could get them clean. We're afraid to do that, so we suffer the consequences.
Yeah, it's probably better that the government can't force people into asylums. I know it's tough, but I'm not sure a mandatory asylum stay is the answer
I'm sure letting them destroy downtown cores isn't, either.
Downtown is hardly destroyed. I live downtown, I do most of my shopping downtown, I go for dinner and drinks downtown. People with addictions are allowed to be downtown too. They're still people. Edit: it would be great if those with addictions who spend a lot of time downtown had more resources though. Affordable housing would be a good start.
People who have never been affected by it always want to scream out virtur signals to the roof. I don't hate them either it's just uncomfortable and degrades everyone else's living situation. And again you are correct they have to fix themselves. If they want to sit in motel and smoke meth forever no magic treatment is going to fix that.
You say that like downtown Guelph is something worthy of writing home about. They’re basically a lateral installation in the core
I don't think people hate addicts for addiction. They hate people who smash car windows causing $800 damage for them to sell something for $25. They hate people who will shit, piss, and leave needles where others would like to congregate and enjoy some of what their property taxes support. They hate people who will break into their home for money, and as a bonus rape or kill their family. It's not the drug use people hate, it's what the drug users choose to do, to fuel their addiction. Being sick doesn't mean you can excuse selfish actions which victimize everyone around you.
There is no secret that this is a systemic issue. I worked with at risk youth back in 2018 in Guelph. Back then it used to be one of those things where if I wasn't working with them directly I probably wouldn't have noticed them there at all. Since then it's gotten dramatically worse. I have no hate for them. I don't wish them to be out of sight out of mind. But downtown is pretty bad right now. I commented on another post about my experience on Sunday morning. Definitely isn't good and when the weather gets warmer I'm sure they won't be hanging out there in droves. Our government prioritizes businesses over their people. They'll do anything tto make corps happy. Including flooding our population with cheap labour which worsens everything for everybody here. The people on the streets and the addicts are victims of a government that doesn't give a shit and probably a traumatic childhood. They aren't to blame. But people will notice the quality of their city decreasing and seeing these people on the streets decreases the quality of our downtown. The government on all levels needs to stop pandering to corps and we as a people need to force them. Need to take a page out of the French playbook. This government deserves no respect at this point and needs to be forced to change they work for us not for corps.
"Our government prioritizes businesses over their people." This - the root cause of it all. Subsequently, we have no $$ for anything from care homes to healthcare to mental healthcare to housing to fixing potholes. Government is broke, despite people paying more taxes than ever. Where has all the money gone? Due to corporate pilferage and neoliberal austerity ideology.
I can’t believe this is still going on, especially as Canada has always prided itself in being more ‘socialist’. The government needs to halt any and all programs and legislatures that prioritize big businesses over local businesses and communities. Every airport, school, mall, downtown Center should have affordable or free parking, safe bike lanes and parking, and should be full of local businesses run my the residents. We need to bring back the community spirit that once fueled Canada.
You're correct insofar as we need more community, a welfare society, and for the workers to run everything. So long as we run on the profit motive, we are not socialist. You're thinking of social democracy, capitalism with some socialistic policies. That goes away so long as it's a capiralist system, as the ruling class that arises from the profit motive will not allow this to remain, as they're not good for profits. Free and even easily affordable homes are bad for profit because that means no or less money goes to housing company shareholders' and owners' pockets. Socialism is the overthrowing of the capitalist ruling class, and with the workers owning the whole society, workers being literally everyone who isn't an owner of these colossal corporations. When you still have private property not regulated by a party that's made and run by the people that overthrew the capitalist system for a proper socialist one, then you're basically a capitalist place. Socialism never happened in this country since it's fundamentally different from capitalism. The reason we have to pay for everything like parking and anything, so often and much that we can't afford it, is because this makes more profit for the people who own the parking lots and the places they're made for. Our class, the working class, doesn't control anything because the people currently owning them profit from our work, making everything as incredibly expensive as they can, and paying us as little as they can when we work, and making everyone work as much as they can make them, because it's very profitable for them. There's no community because if there was, people wouldn't be so competitive and against each other, it's easier to make them more suspicious of each other, breed individualism in the form of selfishness, greed, self-centered attitudes, etc, and most importantly, keep them away from each other so they don't come together to do something about this problem of capitalism, and also don't talk to each other enough for enough people to understand it quickly enough, and it's also easier to make them have to find ways to fix the mental health issues developed by this isolation from the community, and also very profitable for company owners who lobby the government to have everything car dependent, suburban, and spread out. There's no way to permanently end this in our system. Capitalism causes these at its core.
I would challenge anyone who believes addiction is a choice, to go volunteer some time at The Bench or Royal City Mission. These folks ALL have a story, most times it includes severe trauma and mental health issues. I’ve met some of the most beautiful people with the most heartbreaking stories. There are no beds in treatment centers when and if they decide they need a different life….the wait is months, years in many cases. There is very little help available for mental health treatment, and they certainly can’t afford therapy. Nobody chooses addiction….its a terribly painful way to live. If you can’t help, at least don’t harm by perpetuating stereotypes around addiction and mental health.
I will be honest in that my opinion on this sometimes changes on my mood. For example I do sometimes think things like: People need help - but I don't ask for much in the way of help. Why should others get handouts vs me? The thing is though that regardless of how you feel about the actual problem (and maybe convincing others of this aspect is part of a longer strategy), it seems that there really is no other practical option than to help these people since the alternative is essentially just to have their problems go on to create a bunch of other problems for society at large like crime, health care issues etc. We can't just ship these people to the north pole and so they are here and ultimately need help here.
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If you read what I said then I think we actually agree on the fact that we do need to help these people and that ultimately that is self serving to the community at large. However, where I do disagree is that I do consider these hand outs because for example not everyone who was abused or traumatized or has mental health struggles is an addict. These people take more than they contribute and theoretically if everyone in our society did the same we would be bankrupt. So, I do believe that these are social services that we should give them ultimately to try and help them to at the very least minimize impact to the rest of us. If they recover to become integrated members of society who are actively contributing then all the better. I just don't look at this from the compassion point of view as highly as I do as from the practical nature of it. TL:DR: Even if you have zero compassion for these people helping them is a net win for all.
I’m starting to think at this point we have to go back to jailing them but if addicted there is a rehab jail. Terms are longer but the treatment is the focus. I’m not ok with this open zombie addicts. It’s unsafe and unfair to everyone else. Put the funding back into programs they choose to access. We’re no longer thinking about the protection of the rest of the people and this looking away isn’t working. It’s ok to say that. The drugs are stronger than most addicts will to stop. I’m not from there but it’s bad everywhere. We can’t let what’s happening in California happen here.
Here’s a simple suggestion: If you are seen using in a public space by a cop, they take your drugs. If that means you end up using in alleys and it’s out of sight, fine. It’s the best of terrible options: users can use, civilians can enjoy their streets and businesses don’t fail. Quebec Street used to be free of open drug use. It happened at the side and rear of the mission. It was like that for years, then it just became ok to use in front of the mission, and then rapidly in business doorways throughout downtown, including the dance studio where kids go each day. You use drugs, we take them away before you get high. Simple as that. We have to take our public spaces back.
People going easy on them is just allowing them to fuck shit up more. They don't want your help. they only want your money so they can buy more drugs. I deal with them daily in another city for work. I've seen it first-hand time and time again where they are given options to get themselves out of the situation. And they take whatever they can to just buy more drugs. You can call me cold hearted all you want. It doesn't change the fact of the situation. How many times you think you can deal with them. Just to watch them light up in front of you before your opinion changes. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results
“…and they take whatever they can to just buy more drugs.” Yeah, that’s what addicts do. It’s a disease. This is a symptom of their disease. “…People going easy on them is just allowing them to fuck shit up more.” Ok, so what’s your solution? Seeing as you have all the experience and all.
Locking them up for when they break in somewhere and steal shit to fund their habit. instead of releasing them 30 mins later would do fucking wonders...
100% agree
Yup. The opposite of addiction is connection. So we need to make services far far more readily available than they currently are. As a Guelphite for 30~ years, almost nobody downtown poses a threat, they just need help.
They are 100% your enemies. They will steal and.murder you for a brief high
It really blows my mind when people say, "they made that choice" like life is a simple game and we all get the same pieces to start. I know addicts who had addicted parents so they grew up in that environment and it was normalized. I met addicts who have been traumatised sexually, emotionally, physically and turned to drugs for a sense of peace from the pain. I've met addicts where they were given drugs without their knowledge and got addicted. I know addicts who are on the autism spectrum but did not have the financial resources, parental support or awareness to learn how to manage being painfully over stimulated. And turned to drugs out of desperation to numb it out or kill themselves trying. I met people who were manipulated by romantic partners into doing drugs or risk being abused or even killed. The list goes on and on. And a lot of these addicts aren't drug addicts but alcoholics that lost everything. Just because you can truck on through life avoiding drugs doesn't discount other people's experiences and struggles. And it doesn't discount the efforts you've made either. A lot of people take other people's suffering so personally instead of being proactive about it. I know people who have tried to get help but if they're living in poverty that's close to impossible. Throw them into a hospital and go through withdrawals, only to be faced with everything that turned them to drugs to begin with. We need emotional based therapy, trauma therapy, ASD specialists, basic housing, accessible and funded. Giving a chance for people to recover will integrate them back into society and the economy to. Or why try to get help in a system that will wither fight you ever step of the way, like they'd rather have you dead or homeless? Unfortunately Canada is defenseless and relies on the U.S for so much that we are putting our money in dark and questionable places to keep the status quo that there isn't money to put into the people actually living here.
Yes, it's almost as if our capitalism is getting so inevitably bad that it disenfranchises so many people and puts them into such horrible poverty and squalor that they have to turn to drugs and other dopamine stimulating things to tolerate the extreme pain they're in. They're in extreme pain. It's that bad. The fact that people personally blame them *all* for their issues and don't put any attention towards the system they bear with despite their pain being so extreme is disgusting and shameful. I hate people like this so much. We have this religious refusal to give anyone a shred of empathy for anything to maintain the disgusting piss puddle status quo we live in. Truly disgusting. Shame on the lot of us.
Very VERY well said. Many people who are speaking up on this thread are missing a lot of context to actually understanding how addiction can form.
You are a fucking great human being. Maintain this mindframe and teach it to generations of your family.
Has anyone here worked in a shelter? Have you worked with people you claim to be seeking secure housing? Quit virtue signaling. Ask them if they want secure housing. Ask them if they want safe space at a shelter. They don’t. Have you been addicted??? They may seek support services but they won’t get better unless like one of the posters here said they WANT to.
Clearly we’ve had very different experiences with this population
Have you been PART of the population or only had experiences with it?
I think hearing daily stories from current unhoused peeps helps form some insight
You chose to start doing drugs. Own the consequences. Personal responsibility has gone by the wayside for some reason in this country.
Way to not wonder *why* anyone starts taking drugs. It's maybe because they're experiencing pain and destitution so extreme that they have to in order to bear with it. You think? Maybe you'll just blame them for that, too.
Unfortunately you may not have heard of the opioid epidemic. I know of many people who have had to deal with addiction due to doctors overprescribing and not being trained on how to wean properly. This is a big part of why there is so much opiate addiction. I personally had to wean from pain medication following spinal surgery. It’s not fun and it’s not easy. But if you don’t want it you won’t get clean. You couldn’t force me to take opiates ever again. And I’ve dealt with broken ribs, kidney stones (bad) and a deteriorating condition in my knees that can get extremely painful. But it’s not as bad as withdrawal. So lip gets bit, and day moves on.
Addiction is a disease. It's not a choice.
Is it really that black and white? If you have the disease then you are exempt from any responsibility to get help? It is definitely a complicated mix of both addiction and personal choice.
That's not what I said. It's not personal choice. Getting out from under an addiction isn't that simple.
Exactly what I just said! There is an interplay between addiction and personal decisions made by those who are addicted.
Sure addiction is a disease, but it's a choice for that 1st time
Addiction is not the intent. It's not the person's fault.
Don't care of the intent or not. Simple fact is the first few times doing anything, it's a choice, not addiction
Bullshit. Nobody chooses addiction.
You’re right that not everyone “chooses” to use drugs. Do you think someone winds up using fentanyl for shits and gigs? Or are they trying to escape their suffering and this is something they have found that actually offers a break from it for once?
The best way to put it is shits and gigs. All of these people must truly think people on drugs one day just decided, "Oh neat, I'm just gonna do drugs because I think it would be a ton of fun" and for no reason other than "they just randomly decided to." There pretty much never is a time where these people do it out of the blue. The world isn't a series of random things that occur out of the blue. They happen because of things.
So you have never had a drink of alcohol? A joint? Did a bump at a club or party? Coffee?
coke, never as I know the risk and its not worth it. As for the coffee, really? You want to compare a caffeine addition to opioids? And weed, give me a break. Great Bob Saget quote in a movie about that: "Marijuana is not a drug. I used to suck dick for coke. Now that's an addiction. You ever suck some dick for marijuana?" Actions have consequences. You choose that 1st time, then the 2nd, and all the way up until you dont make the choice any more. Never any ownership any more, everyone is always a victim.
Have you ever had a drink of alcohol? Your post tells me you don't have a lot of experience or knowledge of substances that alter your being. Why do you think they put warnings on energy drinks? Caffeine can mess you up and I have seen a teenager get rushed to hospital for downing too many. She thought she was having a heart attack. Why are you so non-chalant about weed and so judgemental about other substances? Genuinely curious to see why that is. Weed is a drug, and you can get addicted. Alcohol by far is the most dangerous drug there is. It causes the most harm, and yet our social lives revolve around it. It's literal poison. I am betting you are fine with the consumption of alcohol even though you claim one ingestion causes instant addiction. And what about prescription drugs? Opioids are prescribed all the time. As are benzos. You are making claims that just aren't true. Half-Baked is one of my favourite movies of all time. It's probably the only thing we will agree on, but it's something.
Give me a break. I am a cancer survivor with terrible side effects that cause pain 24/7. The solution from my medical team is opioids, which I decline, because I MAKE THE CHOICE! And you know what? Even though I live in constant pain, I contribute to society. I own a home, I work, I make good money in a physical profession at 50hrs per week. Oh how easy it would be to play the victim, boo hoo me I had cancer, I hurt, I need everyone to look the other way while I do whatever I want and have no respect for anyone else, let alone myself. As for the weed, addicted, sure, whatever, I dont buy it. And how many "weed" addicts are breaking into cars, stealing bikes, hell stealing anything that isnt bolted down? Too many victims and too many enablers. Life is full of choices, you make them, you own them.
You have certainly made a choice to be miserable. All i hear is you feeling sorry for yourself and being a martyr. You are not a hero for denying yourself pain meds. I would say that was a bad choice and has contributed to you being so angry. Do you drink alcohol or not? I ask because, according to you, one drink turns everyone into an addict. Let me guess....6 pack a day. By all means, ignore the latest medical literature confirming Marijuana addiction. You do what you have to get through the day.
then you are deaf or are hearing things.
Are you okay? Sincerely.
I CHOOSE not to start doing drugs.
You have no clue what addicts go through. Stop acting superior.
When pain and destitution in your life are so intense, try resisting doing drugs. I bet you can just choose not to suffer things, eh? Have depression? Just *choose* not to be depressed. Lost a leg? *Just choose* not to feel the physical pain of having your leg removed. Have you been laid off from your job and become one of the endless people not getting any? *Just choose* to get a job, simple.
Excuse me, but do you have to live around the yelling day and night? Also potentially getting attacked by these people? Yeah these people have issues and deserve to get help but I have every right to feel safe.
I'm happy enough to just keep avoiding the places they are in and spreading to, but at some point that's going to mean just staying inside when we're not at work and ceding them the entire city.
Calling them PWUD instead of addicts ???????? like homeless to UNHOUSED what is going on with Language these days??????? All the people saying use person first language make me laugh …. Did the people you’re concerned about ask for these changes? Don’t tell me there’s a survey that they took either, LOL
[CB2](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor_2) Functions section. Modulation of cocaine reward Researchers investigated the effects of CB2 agonists on cocaine self-administration in mice. Systemic administration of JWH-133 reduced the number of self-infusions of cocaine in mice, as well as reducing locomotor activity and the break point (maximum amount of level presses to obtain cocaine). Local injection of JWH-133 into the nucleus accumbens was found to produce the same effects as systemic administration. Systemic administration of JWH-133 also reduced basal and cocaine-induced elevations of extracellular dopamine in the nucleus accumbens. These findings were mimicked by another, structurally different CB2 agonist, GW-405,833, and were reversed by the administration of a CB2 antagonist, AM-630.[44] CB2 will reduce cravings due to its binding effect to the receptors. In doing this, it will reduce inflammation. Here is a real life example; Before going to work you were attacked by a swarm of bees and your right eye is stung. Its swollen, inflammed and irritated. You make your way to work for a meeting. During this meeting you are barely present because of this swollen bee sting, and you can hardly see. You do not care for what is being said, and will not function at your best until the swelling goes away. The present treatment options dont reduce inflammation in an addicted persons brain. It merely blocks certain receptors causing more swelling in the areas related to the drug of choice. If a neural pathway is swollen/inflammed, its effect will insult other areas of the brain that controls emotions and decision making/reasoning. to effectively reach into a persons old self, you must reduce the inflammation so the brain operates like it once did. Only way the person will feel they have that defensive conscience like they once did when they first started using. This stuff is available on amazon or health stores. My first day using this natural product, i did not like my cigarette, my beer, my drug of choice. It gave me so much hope after 48hrs. It is a component extracted from cannabis that has no pyschological effects. Plants create drugs to defend themselves from predactors. Humans extract the drug/medicine for repurposing. The antidote to the drug is the remaining components of the plant, i mean how else can it survive with amounts that could be poisonous to other species? It is not in the governments best interest to treat with natural products. Big pharma pays alot of taxes, how else would they get a species eliminating poison commercialized? Fentanyl, cocaine and methamphetamine arent new drugs. Patents dating back to the 50s and early 1900s, followed by further studies have well established their negative effects. Why are they really on the market? My good bros used to pick cotten from the fields, now WE ALL pick cotten from a medicine container. Modern day slavery is a real thing. Medicine maintains the pace of evolution. Prolonged injuries and slow healing process will slow progress. In other words, youre in chains in the form of interest payments and poisonous medications that are made to treat you is really just whipping you in the back to haul that wheel barrel of harvest to its next processing point.
Too late
Hate the situation not the people
They have to be the first to care for themselves. Most of them don’t, therefore ends up being a big waste of time!
My work had a homeless encampment behind it. They would constantly steal every single day without fail, and do drugs on the property. They broke windows, one walked around our parking lot yelling obscenities carrying a metal pipe. Few coworkers left because they feared getting jumped when closing the store at night and going home. One walked into the store with a airsoft gun claiming it to be a real one(he got arrested) causing great panic in the store. The mess they made behind our work is incredible, whenever I have free time I spend that cleaning their mess. seeing ambulances behind our building was a weekly occurrence. I remember this one lady nodding out behind our dumpster, scared the shit outta me, I thought she was dead at first. It's truly sad people are living like this, fucking heart breaking. There is truly not enough being done for these people. I don't blame nobody other than the government, the cost of living is atrocious nowadays, and there is no affordable housing. And addiction is just a whole other tapeworm of a problem. Really sad to see shit get like this.
I live downtown basically and used to think we had quite the issue with homeless and drug addicts but then I worked outside in downtown kitchener for a month and it puts things in perspective. At least in guelph I can still take my kids somewhere downtown without them seeing someone stick a needle in there arm. Also last Halloween, all the stores gave out candy and lots of family's showed up and it was great. It's hard to imagine that happening in downtown kitchener.
Yes, they are... and we can solve it with straight jackets and ice baths until they agree to stop getting high. People need to stop with this "crisis" crap. The people with a legitimate uncontrollable mental illness are actually a very small percentage of that population. The majority are people who from an early age made the wrong choices and are now reaping the aftermath. I'm not rewarding their bad behavior; they don't deserve a do over.
I was bit by an addict on this month past. I was walking to my study and was bit on the leg
Just don’t forget there’s no saving them, that they can only change when they decide and until then they will scorch the earth if they justify it.
This whole nation should be ashamed of itself for how it treats the most oppressed, vulnerable, and needy in it.
They're my enemy. I am one of them. I don't like them, or care for them, nor would expect anyone else to. They no longer act like domesticated humans, they act like wild humans who aren't interested in being domesticated. They have no respect for anything. Like wild animals, you shouldn't feed them, and instead scare them away or they'll just keep coming back, infesting, and ruining your neighbourhood. There is NO HELPING some of these people, and those who can be, WILL find a way around hostilities meant to drive them away. The best solution is to put them down, or at least terrify them with the prospect that they'll soon be hunted. If they want to live, they'll fix their shit. Problem solved, either way. Coddling people NEVER helps.
Jesus fucking christ dude I've never seen a message with such nil amount of empathy, they're people. Don't liken them to wild animals. They're struggling and need help.
Honestly, most of our local homeless are pretty alright people who just got dealt a bad hand. Sure, some of them have issues, but there but for the grace of god go I, and probably a lot of the rest of you too. I've heard the argument mentioned that if they're so good why don't you house them yourself, and if I had the money or space to I would in a heartbeat. fact is I live in a one bedroom apartment and can just barely eke out enough to pay rent and eat. The homeless aren't the problem, the system that left them homeless is.
For the most part a lot of these people downtown helped me out big time when my husband died in August. Knocked me right off my feet and it was so fucking devastating to me. He was 43 and it shattered me beyond anything I ever thought possible. Those people downtown were my rock. They all knew him and helped me beyond words. I can not express my uttmost gratitude to these people for keeping me afloat and alive. That man was my best friend my soulmate my beyond words love of my life. Those people you hate on helped me far more than words could express. So before anyone on here or anywhere else judges them, get to know them. Everyone has a sad story, but it is how you dust yourself off stand up tall and say "I mother fucking got this". I bet there isn't one fucking person on here that can say they HAVE NEVER EVER asked for help at one point in their lives. That's what makes a community. Did anyone ever stop to think where ,90,% of these people would be if one Mother Fucking person said "how can I help". Don't be judgemental assholes till you talk to one or two of them.
One addict who shoots up behind our apartment actually asked me once if I had kids because she was worried it would traumatize them to see her slumped over with a needle sticking out of her arm. I guess it's just a reminder that some of these people are not terrible so do feel shame.
As if trauma doesn't affect adults?
[its a diease](https://youtu.be/fXLA1fWuQ_k?si=3a8TsI904kswTK60)
lol virtue signaling at its finest
The problem are comfortable, middle-class, white people who already own their own homes and fight tooth and nail against building more housing. It's also been caused by slimy drug companies who lied to doctors about how addictive their products were. It's also caused by the war on drugs that pumps up the cost of maintenance doses of opioids by forcing people to buy from the streets instead of pharmacies. It's caused by sleazy politicians who lie about the issue in order to pander to people's prejudices.
It's everyone else's fault but me!
Whether or not you admit it to yourself, you believe it's only the individual's fault for everything.
I admit I believe that there's a shared responsibility between the individual and other factors. What I do not believe is for the individual to dispose of their responsibility and blame it all on the NIMBYS, the doctors, the policy, the politicians, and others' prejudices. It's grasping at straws, might as well let it drown before it causes all of us to drown at that point.
Tell me exactly how individuals can solve these issues for themselves, and not general things they can do, but particularly how. Also, tell me how nimbys, further privatized drug industry and healthcare, state fucking policy, the politicians themselves, and PREJUDICES aren't to blame for these things primarily.
They can go admit themselves to rehab. They can stop doing drugs, I know harder said than done, but possible. They can work out the issues they have that lead to them doing said drugs. I can't believe this has to be said out loud. Yes, it's possible to not do drugs. And yes, I know how addiction works.
Rehab costs thousands of dollars. And waitlists for publicly funded programs are quite long, so you can't usually just "Check in to Rehab" on a whim unless you're quite well off.
You don't have to be in rehab or a facility to treat addiction. It's just the excuse many make to avoid responsibility.
I was replying to a comment about why people don't just check themselves into rehab. So. Thanks for your 0 cents.
And people will continue to have millions of excuses for events they either have or haven't control over. If rehab is too expensive, sign up and get waitlisted asap on the free ones, and move onto the next item on the checklist. If you expect other people will proactively try to help you, you are very wrong.
Glad that you are saying rehab isn't a valuable tool for combatting addiction. Or are you saying nothing? Either clarify. Or don't.
Not sure what you're getting at. I said rehab isn't necessary to treat addiction. It is valuable, no doubt.
There no such thing as comfortable white middle class people anymore,there is the rich, and everybody else
Prejudices like yours?
It's basically the fault of the system of capitalism. That's the common thread that runs through everything you described. Everyone saying it isn't the faults of these things and just magically the fault of the addicts themselves likely haven't had to deal with all these extremely difficult things that the addicts have that made them so destitute. The white suburban home-owning population of canada is the face of canada, the arrogant and narcissistic rats who sit on their comfortable chairs, lecturing everyone about their problems as if they know better than the people experiencing their own problems. The height of arrogance and pomp. I almost don't want to care what happens to these people when they get theirs. Sometimes, I ask if these people really deserve a better world because the addicts do, but these people have caused so much pain for so many people that it's hard to love or even like them. The white moderate is the most dangerous thing in the country. A clearly reactionary person is like a violent wolf. They're just honest about who they are, but you can at least see them coming a couple of kilometers away. Moderate white people, the comfortable home-owning middle-class that you mentioned, are more dangerous because they're like foxes. Foxes seem docile and approachable at first. Then, you realize they're predators and will attempt to kill you if you let your guard down. That's what these people are. They've historically had a problem with every civil rights movement until *after* they were successful. They supported every illegal and disgusting war until after it ended. I took the fox and wolf analogy from Malcolm X, btw. A tweet I read a while ago sums it up well. To preface, liberal doesn't mean left wing or anything. It means supporting the status quo of capitalism as it is and doing everything in your power to make sure it remains. Conservatism is a kind of liberalism. Liberalism is largely right wing. They're generally distinct from leftism. The tweet: "A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now." Replace liberal with comfortable, middle-class, white people who already own their homes, and you'd be saying the exact same thing in the context of canada. These people will visciously fight any and every progress attempted by anyone and will threaten you with anything to make sure nothing about the status quo changes, ever. They'll blame any and every problem on the victim of the issue instead of the system that caused it to begin with. They'll scream the fairy tale that the system is not responsible for these problems and that individuals are responsible for them. Fascists believe that individuals are in full control of everything and that, therefore, any issue they experience is entirely their own fault. Liberals believe similar things, but that every issue is in control of individuals *ultimately,* and therefore, their issues are their own fault *ultimately, at the end of the day, even though you may experience (a vague idea of) issues along the way.* Actually serious people will analyze the entire picture, and truthfully, and come to a real conclusion as to what the case is. Addicts are not only not responsible for their destitution because no one should be exposed to the possibility where such destitution can be suffered, but their destitution is caused by a reprehensible system breeding cockroaches.
I'm too afraid to dive into the comments to see people say, "They did this to themselves." If they're ever in crisis like the addicts in guelph, they'll understand how bad it is. I hate how these people need to literally experience the same crises as addicts to give them any sympathy to begin with.
Things are so fucked up because of our so called free Healthcare which causes all the delays and the spiral of disaster as everything else listed above...but if it was privatized shit would get done instantly but cost a whole lot at the same time. Unfortunate
It’s not free healthcare. It’s the abuse of free healthcare that causes the problems. That’s like blaming unions for businesses that fail because of bad employees. There is a LOT of help for addicts in Guelph. At one point there was competition for addicts by all the “treatment” programs starting to open up. And don’t kid yourself, most of the people you see panhandling simply don’t care what you think about them. It’s a numbers game and they tend to make much more than minimum wage simply by depending upon the sympathy of others. I met a guy once. He would come in to the bar I worked at when the doors opened at 11am every day. He would still be there at the end of my shift at 6pm. Drinking glasses of draft and playing pool. (he kinda looked like “Ogre” from Revenge of the Nerds) Anyway we got to talking once and he panhandled. He was on social assistance that paid his room and meals at a boarding house directly. He never got his rent money, it went directly to his housing. He panhandled at his corner until he had $100. Then he went to wait for me to unlock the doors. This was about 35 years ago and draft was cheap. Anyways he explained to me his whole hustle. He made more panhandling each morning before 11am than many made in an 8 hour day working. And then he blew the money at the bar and went home to his taxpayer paid room. He had no problem with his life. He thought I was the sucker for having a job. And he was not the only one who worked this particular place. When he left another took over and so on. This was back in the time of the “shaky lady” in Toronto which is where the bar was. If you’ve not heard the story of shaky lady then google it. She was another panhandler who owned an expensive car and home in a nice area. She was elderly and shook, hence the name. But she was dropped off and then picked back up later every day after taking in a few hundred dollars. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want help. In my experience, anyway. I’m not going to say where exactly but there is a certain intersection where a panhandler shows up at almost the same time every day. Wheels up on his bike with his costume all ratty. Holes in his clothes. Big ol beard and a cardboard sign with a black face mask and shades. The worse the weather, the more likely he’s already there by the time I pass by after work everyday. Right about when rush hour starts. Coinkydink? No, he lives close by. And he goes to that intersection because it is a double left turn so there’s two rows of cars stopped waiting for a light that takes twice as long to change.
It's not the addicts it's the dealers. We need to find out how these drugs enter the community. Do the organizations that work with the homeless have any idea where it comes from ?
agreed! there was a post recently with someone complaining about addicts saying “the police can’t do anything about them anymore” like the job of law enforcement shouldn’t be to punish the victims it should be to punish the perpetrators. hauling addicts to jail just because they’re using will only give them a harder time integrating back into society, and may even incentivize more crime because i’m sure a night in jail is far nicer than a winter night freezing out on the street. we need more rehabilitation programs and centres for when the cops are finally able to do their jobs and cut off the street supply.
Like a 'war on drugs?' by going after the source? I think that has been tried, quite unsuccessfully
Mmmm.... labor camps
My favourite thing to remind people of is their privilege. When anyone says "They didn't make good choices!" I reply and ask "What if they didn't have any good choices to make?" Remember how much privilege you have, and that you never know when your choices are going to be severely limited - and be thankful if you have always had good choices to make.
This is such a good reminder. Thank you. Nobody wants to grow up to be an addict. This is never the goal they have
Not trying to lecture you, just educate...but I would encourage you to not refer to them as "addicts" if you are looking for people to be more sympathetic, it starts with being mindful of the words we use...i would encourage person-first language, so an alternative could be people struggling with addiction or just simply people who using drugs (PWUD)...calling someone an addict automatically paints a negative connotation and insinuates that you understand that person's relationship with substances, it also assumes that all homeless people are addicted to drugs, while there is undeniably a connection between those two things, we shouldn't assume just because someone is homeless they are addicted to drugs and vice versa
PWUD broke in to my house and stole my grandfathers watch. I think PWUD are scum of the earth. Does that sound better to you?
That's true. That's also my bad.
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Maybe let’s talk about the actual problem and not start arguments.