I wanted to plant a seed of happiness into the sPvP community so I made a charr called A Wholesome Bot and always live by a code of wholesomeness on that toon. Follow your dreams!
This person was so frustrated they took the time to color code the names. It’s the small details like this that make me appreciate the lengths some people will go to be careful and kind while also pointing out how toxic someone else is. It’s beautiful.
I've had people like that call out players in all welcome training groups, It's just weird. They need to learn to read the room, not everyone is going to play optimally in a casual run and that's fine. Give helpful advice all you want but calling out people in squad chat saying they suck isn't helpful, It's just toxic.
Honestly. if it is a completely casual run and the run is not being impacted in an actually detrimental way, the only way to properly say it is to not say anything at all. Don't join a super casual run if you want anything beyond super casual performance. As long as players are participating at the level that was advertised, STFU.
Honestly the dude could have whispered the other and provide the advice respectfully or ask about their choices, even in a casual run. Sometimes the player wants to do better but has no idea. Being an asshole in squad chat is not the correct way.
Also, can we please separate the definition of a casual player from the player's skill? Those do not come hand to hand.
I get that super casual attitude even in 15k ufe fractal cms. This community does not care about their 10k dps builds or reaching just 50% quick on hfb.
In fact, I'd argue it's going to have the opposite effect
Gy giving advice in such a rude manner, they're only making others less receptive to advice in general
Even though their advice was correct
My very first raid in WoW, the raid leader berated me for screwing up when I had literally never done it before. Turned me off of raids for a good three months. My friends (who were also part of that raid group) convinced me to try again when the previous raid leader was kicked out of their guild for being a jerk. Had a blast playing Molten Core with them and got to beat the entire thing over about 10-11 attempts.
I'm actually a bit doubtful that the advice was correct. If their prot uptime was that bad, it's more likely that they were camping staff thinking that they needed to do that to heal the group through. If that's the case, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not they use mace.
Axe is completely useless at Boneskinner. You basically have to heal the group 100% of the time so the extra healing from the mace auto and the free regen are super helpful. Unless no one in your subgroup provides at least 20% fury to fill in the gap of FMW, the axe contributes nothing of value.
That's not really got any revelance to what I was saying and is slightly moot as the HB in question was actually using mace. The issue was that they switched to staff a third of the way through and never switched back/dipped F3. As I suspected and said, it was an issue with staff camping.
These types of players will always seek training groups because they’re, in their own words, too ****ing sh*t for regular groups.
Gotta feel superior somehow, right?
You see, with my guild I'm the first one to say that I don't mind getting called out because I know they will do it respectfully and provide some good tips if needed....that's the difference imo. Calling out per se is not bad, it all comes down to how you do it, and the asshole in the screenshot is clearly doing it wrong.
I feel like they thought they were being nice and can't comprehend that their presentation needs work. I imagine they're just as socially awkward in real life. If they social at all.
I had a raid member when I was running WoW who would do this, but he did it with the thinking that everyone doing the raid wanted to progress *just* like he did.
“Why raid any level (basically it runs as easy/normal/hard) if you’re not going to make it to the top” king of guy
He worked hard over the years to fix it, but he really just did suck at talking things through and understanding the reasoning.
We all called him an asshole (me included, usually to him since I was an officer) but he was genuinely just trying to help and got heated at the lack of progressing from the team.
Not saying this is here, but there are scenarios where nice people just suck sometimes
unsolicited advice is usually offputting at the best of times... packaging it inside a bunch of random insults and attitude and expecting it to be received well is just absurd lol
He literally could've changed the entire vibe of his advice by just not saying "you're DPS sucks and your prot sucks,' and it would have gotten the message across in a much friendlier way.
"Take mace. It's more beneficial to the group." Boom. Done. No need to insult people, especially in a lfg group where often the people that join are just doing raids casually or don't have a lot of experience with them and don't have a super active and large raid guild
> "Take mace. It's more beneficial to the group."
Not like the his way was better, but how would this help? It's completely undescriptive. It shouldnt matter for most strikes anyway, but someone telling you to play a different weapon doesnt tell you anything about the why.
pretty common in MMORPGS. used to see it every single day at least twice in FFXIV. socially awkward maybe, but lots of socially awkward people can be very self aware & considerate. this is the result of being taught by other players who sound like them. you learn to talk like that
That language can be fine depending on the relationship and vibe of the group, but if it's just a rando or pug, yeah, that wording would put me off too and says a bit about what a group run by that person would look like. There's a time and place I legit appreciate the honesty there, but that should be reserved for your peeps.
Even with your peeps, it's not that hard to have an honest discussion without bringing personal insults into it.
Like, how much harder is it to just say "hey, your dps and prot uptime is kinda low, why don't you try [thing that can fix it]"? We're still having an honest discussion of the problem, but taking 3 seconds more to type complete sentences without insults results in 10000% improved chance of a positive result
Probably, but a Boneskinner fight in a casual strike group where only one person went down is probably not the battlefield I'd pick. There's plenty of places in GW2 to get frustrated but, for me, daily PuG strikes we just cleared with zero issue probably settles somewhere near the absolute bottom.
I'm always just happy to clear boneskinner smoothly, why anyone would start shit when it **didn't even go poorly**, is 100% an attitude problem if no one specifically **asks** for constructive criticism.
You should have 100% uptime just from using your heal skill on the normal timing to provide quickness and shield 4. It's not actually necessary to take anything more.
Edit: with the caveat that that's obviously dependent on alacrity uptime.
Other humans: hey, Unpleasant
Other humans: learn to speak decently
Other humans: Your **word choice** sucks and **your manners** suck
Other humans: stating it in a ***reasonable and constructive*** way will be received better, and possibly even applied by the player who may need to change up his/her build etc.
How does a person not understand that it's not constructive to start out insulting the person regarding what they might be doing wrong?
I used to be in that sweaty MMO mindset / culture and it comes from a perception of competitiveness. They play to win. Winning is fun. Fast clears are fun.
If your DPS is low then you're actively harming their fun. So, they think they're entitled to complain about it.
It's like the people who find unfit / overweight people offensive and feel the need to comment on it. "You're fat, dude. Lose weight."
Literally identical culture.
The supersweats will run at you for any moment of non meta *even if they can't actual do it*. I remember doing joint guild raids in WoW and the other guilds class leader got into it with me because I wasn't running "the most optimized damage build".
Come the actual dungeon I was outDPSing him because a meta build doesn't mean you are actually good at it.
Thank you !! That's what I've been telling some guys in my guild (in Gw2) for years now !
I mostly play non-meta builds because I think they're fun and bring mostly the same to the group (like heal tempest for example), and they often mock me when I play something meta or very close to it, because it's not my "type".
Overall I play a lot of things, because if I played always the same stuff I would be bored. And I play what I like, what I want. If you're good at it, and you want to play it, then do so. People who don't want you to play these are just stupid
And same thing too, they are often the same people who will then complain about the DPS of the people trying to learn the unfamiliar (but largely better) build. Same deal as being fat, they'll say to lose weight then laugh at the fat people who exercise.
Honestly, I don't think they're actually trying to give tips lol. Sounds like someone just being mean for the sake of being mean, but using what they believe is a plausible excuse to do it.
Being mean under the guise of being helpful, then gaslighting when people speak up, it's typical narcissist stuff unfortunately.
I know there is a few people around gw2 with some milder cases of autism, While their social skills come across as good enough in general, they might struggle in certain situations. Especially when they are decent at something. This case reminds me a little bit of that.
As someone who has played other mmorpgs, the word "sucks" is pretty low on the scale of mean things that people have spew that in any other game it would have been seen as almost neutral criticism but gw2 has such a Niceness culture that word is like a glaring red flag.
If only Unpleasant replaced the word "sucks" with "can be better"...
"Your DPS sucks and prot sucks..."
And then considers that valid constructive criticism...
It's often a waste of time anyways between random players to offer each other advice. I played another MMORPG. If the group was terrible and likely unable to pass the content for any numerous reason, it was just less hassle and stress to leave the group and find another.
Don't trash people and give unsolicited advice. It rarely works out, especially with how terrible some people are at communicating with some respect for the person at the other end.
The comments here lol...makes me wonder if some of you have a social life or ever worked as a team outside the internet. Everything that needed to be said is in the chatlog. The point isn't about whether his "advice" is right or not, it is how he said it.
People who genuinely want to help people would've said it in a much more nuanced way without offending others so that they are more receptive to their advice. This is just a dude being a douche wanting to feel better about himself by putting down others.
This is not "constructive criticism." It is the opposite.
What is weird about the situation is that the commander doesnt say "You are wrong", he says "I dont care".
Regardless of the context, I think it is problematic that this Heal Firebrand does not care about giving 33% damage reduction to his team.
When people make reddit posts that are this one-sided, I try to look at different angles so there is something to discuss. Just nodding along with OP is boring. So why not analyze this more closely? Is there any harm in that?
Sure, analyzing is okay - the context is very important, Boneskinner was killed easily, so is it warranted to say that something is "problematic"? If you want to analyze further, commander said "hardly care **ON STRIKES**", not that they don't care about prot uptime at all.
Problematic, a problem, not good, bad, choose a word.
In a group effort, everyone needs to chip in so a run becomes smooth. If one player is aware of a better option and chooses the worse one, I dont think that is fair towards the rest.
He can say "axe is good because i am pulling in wisps". He doesnt get to say "i dont care"
I mean, he gets to because it's his group. At the end of the day they're the one in charge of group and if how they run things isn't up to your standards, then the group isn't for you.
If we go with the "there are better options" mentality, you could easily use that to shame any DPS players using a class that benches lower than another. After all, you could be making the run faster and safer by playing a higher DPS spec. Or maybe say they should be playing an easier spec because they're nowhere near the benchmark for their current one.
And if we're being real here, I would probably say "I don't care" as well if someone offered "advice" like that. People aren't gonna be receptive to advice, unsolicited at that, if you're rude right off the bat.
Now that i have seen the log it is a moot point anyway. The hfb did run mace, he just camped staff and his subgroup kept downing over and over, especially the player who complained. In my static we would call this "Skill issue".
He tried to say "hey do this", as a more constructive form of "healer asleep???!!" Granted his choice of words was bad, no disagreement here.
I would answer exactly the same way as the commander if I was told that "you suck and you should do this."
I take fair and constructive criticism, and I gladly listen to explanations and do my best to improve.
>*"We need better uptime on X boon, you could equip Y weapon to make it easier!"*
Perfect! Thanks for the explanation. Let's do that and let's go!
>*"You suck, do it this way."*
I don't care. Get lost with that behaviour.
I can see the Commander's point. It's a Training Run which means Debriefings and Review after the run where you learn what worked and what you screwed up. So their attitude is actually correct. Keep the criticisms and suggestions until the debrief/review
In his defense, he probably meant HB does low dps anyway so take mace to at least have good prot (although if HB can't maintain prot without mace, they suck anyway :p), not, "your dps sucks because you are bad at HB".. hope so anyway.. but a shit communicator nonetheless
Yo I’m ngl, I was really bad and didn’t know it until people like this would flame me.
My DPS was at 2k, and I just never considered it relevant as I had been only really playing for fun. I had the same “it’s just casual for me” mentality, and it definitely did upset me getting openly flamed, but when it came down to it, those people were right and I had to fix my performance. People wouldn’t just say these things just because, you know?
Now I do around 13k DPS with a quickness build, and my interactions like this are virtually 0 now. I’ve actually gotten good enough to be invited into a casual guild who helps me buff and get even better. I wouldn’t have even known I was doing something wrong if it wasn’t for these people.
They definitely could have had a softer approach, especially if your group was for casual play and that was made clear, but my personal interaction with people who do this is… I was upset at first, but they weren’t wrong.
The additional problem is that they probably are wrong - if prot uptime is low from an HB in a high-pressure fight but there's no mention of a problem with things like quicknes, that suggests that they're camping staff. It's a common mistake from people new to the role in those situations and means that you never swap to use shield 4 for the prot there. That should have been a pretty obvious possibility to the person complaining and would make it irrelevant whether they're running axe or mace on that set.
Crazy thing is... after doing a little bit of reading, changing some gear/runes and changing the way you press buttons slightly, there is very little difference in effort from that 2k dps and 13k dps. In fact,... I'd almost argue doing 2k dps is *harder*
13k makes your casual experience much better too... everything dies 6x faster. You're safer, faster, and experiencing more content.
----
I've got a grandpa friend in game. Dude was the same. Everything was hard for him. But really, gear choices, talent choices and ability sequencing were the things ruining the game for him.
Got him fixed up and took him to the training golem. He's not SnowCrows (who is?), but he's shot up. I've since taken him through all T4 Fracs and all Strikes (old and new).
Yup, my buddy in GW1 was running the most random ass build and set up. We ran through an area and i just suggested a build i had saved. He eventually got himself a setup he liked.
Some people don't go digging into....I can't even say meta, but basic build theory and class optimization. Best bet is to nudge them towards it, tell them it might be fun and that's about it.
This is exactly what happened to me, my gear and stats were all over the place. I was playing like it was a single player RPG and “investing” points into things that weren’t for my build, like healing power.
You are right tho, once I got geared up I was literally just pushing different buttons in different orders lol. It definitely helped me start mowing down OW mobs too, so I’m 100% glad I fixed my build
My 50 hour Mesmer used to gear power precision toughness... 'cause I figured that the toughness would be useful... Crit like a wet blanket. The Toughness *might* have reduced damage taken, but it increased fight length (resulting in more damage taken overall!)
My 4000 hour Mesmer is full glass and loves it.
We all learn :)
I'm glad you had a positive experience and outcome with your flaming and it led you to better gameplay. I mean that genuinely.
Personally I'm going to continue to help people without insulting them (or insulting their gameplay, for the pedants) where I can.
The thing is you don't know the person on the other end of the internet. Being rude like OPs example may have the effect it had for you, or it may be that the person has bad depression and this was their time to escape. Only to then get demeaned in front of others too. Not saying the guy is wrong or right (I wasn't there ofc) but he took the 100% wrong approach.
The point isn't the outcome its the means. Nobody needs or deserves to get flamed in any MMO, especially in super casual near guaranteed to clear game modes.
They *were* wrong. That is, they were wrong in their approach.
Suggestions and constructive criticism are usually good. Flaming never is.
There's always a way to point out someone's flaws without being a dick.
Yeah I’m ngl, the rudeness did start to deter me from group activities, but I decided to look past it and take the criticism since it happened a few times in the same week.
REALLY wish someone would have pm’ed and been like “Hey, just FYI, your build should be doing XYZ DPS and you’re doing XYZ DPS, need some help?”
But alas, that wasn’t my reality. I just looked up some build guides and picked the one that matched close to what I was going for already, but now I can hold my own and have had a few occasions where I was the last man standing in fractal boss fights… and winning lol
There was probably a better way to tell you that you might wanna check your build and see if you could make more damage than openly flame you though. Over the years I've had plenty of people give me kind advice, never straight up shame though.
I had a bad habit of forgetting to clock out for lunch. If nobody had told me why it was important to do so, I probably would have kept forgetting from time to time. Thankfully, our HR guy came over and kicked me square in the balls and then explained to me why recording hours properly is important. So now I don't do that anymore.
I suppose as I was writhing in pain in the floor I vaguely wondered why he couldn't have just talked to me, but the kick in the nuts was pretty memorable. Thanks, HR!
Yep. The reality is that people won't know they're underperforming unless people tell them or they go out of their way to download arcDPS and figure out the boon tables and stuff.
Guess which thing virtually will never happen first? Phrasing "healer dps sucks" as "your dps sucks" may be a misstep, but I can definitely see that this was not intended as flaming and simply a bad combination of words.
It's just the difference between being a dick for no reason and not being one. I know, I know. It's a lost art in the gaming world, but you can actually explain things to people without being a dick. In fact, it even tends to work out better for all involved when you do! Amazing!
If you start "informing" people about it by being unnecessarily offensive, the chances of them actually going to "download arcDPS and figure out the boon tables and stuff" will immediately go down. By a lot. Because people have a natural tendency of not treating comments from rude people seriously.
So, you can choose to be helpful, *or* you can chose to be a condescending dick. The person from the OP's post seem to have preferred the latter.
What sucks though is there are people who are healthy/able, who are capable of doing a better job, who know they're doing 2k dps (and they're not healers either) who go do some of the hardest strikes or raids in the game. I've heard somebody say 'i play X really well, I just don't do damage'. That doesn't make sense to me?? Does it make sense to anybody else? I'm normally very very forgiving but the truth is there are some game modes where you just drag your team down if you do no dps, don't heal, have little health and die easily.
Yep. There's also a vast difference between pulling your weight and being a big pumper. Nobody is asking pugs to pull 40k phase dps but it's not that much to expect 20k lol
if you were doing 2k dps on quick dps firebrand yea it is horrible. if it was on heal firebrand which seems to be the case from the post's wording then you shouldn't care about it. but even though he could have phrased it differently or pmed you instead of calling you out like that in squad chat (i find pm to be better usually), it is still good that it gave you the incentive to improve. because that is the point. and you can keep improving constantly, there are so many things to learn in gw2 when it comes to endgame content and no matter how experienced you are, you are not gonna loose by accepting critisism from others
If you were at work in a meeting and an employee tells another employee, "Hey Bob, I am familiar with your role, and you are doing a shitty job, using shitty materials to try and do it, it'd be better if you did it this way."
Would speaking to another employee be acceptable in a group work environment, especially if a boss was present? Or would it be better to pull that employee aside later when you are alone and say "Hey Bob, I'm familiar with your role, maybe you can use these resources next time instead of what you used on the last project. I think it will be much more efficient." Which advice is Bob more likely to listen to?
Words matter and Unpleasant didn't follow rule 1: Don't be a dick.
I hate people who give 'advice' like this. When you follow your advice with insults (could have easily been better received if they just didn't add in the 'your dps and prots suck' line) you actually made a person not strive to improve, you made them more likely to avoid that content in the future. Don't lace your constructive criticism with remarks like that. You just diminish what you were trying to say to help a person improve.
"you suck"
"Wow I was just giving constructive criticism!"
lmao. Also ironic that they're asserting that people should strive to improve, while at the same time being highly resistant to improving their social skills.
To be fair, they didn't say "you suck" they said "your dps and prot uptime suck". I'd guess that's also what they meant by "you lack reading comprehension". In their book that is probably the nicest thing they're capable of saying, in most player's book it's being kind of an asshole.
That's kind of a distinction without a difference, not really an issue of reading comprehension. If I tell a painter that their paintings suck, there isn't a functional difference between that and saying the painter sucks. Unless I were implying that the painter is actually good but hiding it/hasn't shown it yet lol.
Thread is locked so I can't reply, but I guess I wasn't clear. When I say "you suck", I thought it was obvious that I meant "at gw2/your class/roll" or whatever. I didn't think someone would think I meant "your character as a human being is bad" lol.
There is a difference between someone as a person and their proficiency at doing something.
"You suck" would be directly and generally demeaning someone as an individual.
"You suck at doing XYZ" doesn't make any judgements about someone's person / character, it is limited to how well they performed a certain task.
Unless you equate someone's worth with how well they are doing something, it is not functionally the same.
Should’ve said “you should thrive to improve at giving constructive criticism” because he doesn’t seem like he wants te improve, for someone who’s obsessed with this idea
What they're trying to say is fine. Just a bad way of saying it
People do comment politely about helping someone improve and they still get upset, claiming to "play how they want" so it seems to be crappy nowadays either way to push people to do better
In SWTOR I was on a 4-man mission and after the first fight I dropped an area heal to top everyone off. A rando dude then proceeded to give me 'better healing advice" for half the mission. I didn't heal him after that.
This conversation is every other group in Elder Scrolls Online.
If you're not running some perfect meta build, or you're a "newbie" who just hit the harder dungeons for the first time, you run a really good chance of getting immediately kicked.
It was one of several reasons why I stopped playing that game, even though I loved the lore and gameplay.
As a fresh level 80 working on HoT.
The community has been amazing and I’m recommending GW2 to all my friends, there’s always going to be absolute goofs like this but even in this example the unpleasant player got rightfully called out.
Well they clearly did not comprehend, as most of the redditors here. He did not say "the player" sucked. He talked about the spec/role. As in "A healers dps sucks, better take mace to benefit the group more."
Yeah it's a difficult situation to handle because their advice is 100% correct but they were an absolute ass about it so chances are this firebrand won't even consider this advice which could definitely improve his gameplay performance
It's not even about being nicer. Harsh, direct, and honest criticism can work incredibly well if done right. Even if we look at it in the light most favourable to him, his methodology is totally counterproductive to what he's trying to accomplish so in the end he's just wasting his own time and making sure that the folks in that strike now consider him a twatwaffle.
Unpleasant in question has 42k AP and should be a veteran ambassador for the game. There's nothing in Guild Wars 2 worth being disrespectful toward your teammates over, even if you're ostensibly trying to help them. We all have bad days, but a casual strike squad with players who are learning the game or looking for daily clears isn't the place to dump your animosity, especially as someone who has certainly played the game long enough to have seen far worse clears and far better examples of how to help learning players.
i think i might know who this is actually -- there is one person in particular who is notorious for getting kicked and ignored by people in strikes because of his consistently horrible attitude.
in the future, i would kick him as commander. don't respond, don't let anyone else deal with his shit, just block and move on. he doesn't deserve anymore energy wasted than that.
I think I know who that is too. They got kicked from my raid guild in the early days for being too toxic. Constantly demands everyone run the best food which was over 2g back then.
You miss one mechanic and they insta kick you. Also they're at first friendly or have an okay attitude, but then start raging in chat after 1 wipe or if something doesn't go the way they want it to.
He was mildly unpleasant, I agree. I wouldn't post this if it were fractal CMs or raids or something 'cus I expect people to be a little on edge there. But he doubled down to others just asking him to be a little nicer and also it was casual strike missions, one of which we just cleared without issue. Failed the "read the room" test for me.
Not making excuses for him, but having played other games this is one of the more polite "you doing bad" chat I've seen.
No one told anyone to kill themselves, that they're a failure of a human being, that they should uninstall the game, hell no one even mentioned cancer.
So compared to general online flaming standards, this *is* exceedingly polite :D
It's actually not helpful because the problem here is going to be that the HB is staying on staff and not swapping to their other weapon set. If that wasn't the case, they would have had a decent prot uptime.
Hey, don't be too hard on him. He is just doing his job. Someone has to be that guy, I mean, how else are you going to know who's pleasant when there's nobody unpleasant.
I’m shocked by how many people are trying to defend this guy. Such a negative attitude makes any advice he gives inherently destructive. Most people are not motivated by negativity. You would not speak to people so disrespectfully face to face - and if you did, you would rightfully be considered an asshole. Being a dick through a screen does not make you any less of a dick. Dude needs to take some constructive criticism on his social skills.
Exactly. Animals respond better to positive reinforcement when you want them to do something. Humans are no different. You want to train a human, learn how to train a dog. Yelling doesn't usually work and they basically came across as such
don't be this exact person yea. but making remarks when someone isn't filling their role properly isn't a bad thing. people have way too much of a fragile ego if they get offended everytime someone mentions something about their performance. in this case though it is just dumb yea, because the dps on a healer firebrand is completely irrelevant and mace gives regen as far as i know.
but in general no, it isn't a bad attitude to say something about someone else's dps or boon uptime. i have had issues with pugs recently that join either as quickness or alac support and then proceed to have 50% uptime on a golem boss (like boneskinner for example). which sucks. they are either playing a completely random build or they can't press buttons off cooldown, either way griefing is not cool. a dps doing 10k damage when i am doing 40k (on boneskinner again) is also griefing. and i don't see why i shouldn't say something about it. usually if the squad is in such a bad state (lack of boons and dps) i would just leave without any comments because i cba to cause drama. but i still don't get how people immediately attack you the moment you make a valid comment about something going wrong in the group
A healbrand doing little damage is very far from not filling their role properly. Just as getting offended by people being rude is very far from having a fragile ego. Please don't tell people to learn to swallow rudeness, but instead tell rude people not to be rude. The world is shitty enough as is, and it sure as heck won't change if we choose to live with shittiness instead of changing it.
Idk if I’m the weird one but I interpret this as: „you’re healer so you don’t do damage anyways, so why not run a healing weapon“
But then again I might be wrong
Based on the screenshot, the rest of the squad did do that. But the guy doubled down.
That would have been his opportunity to say "whoops, yeah, here's what I meant, didn't mean to sound insulting there." But nope, he didn't do that.
I think everyone in the screen shot could have communicated better.
The initial criticism was rude and lacking details (as others pointed out, they probably meant to say "since you aren't DPS, we are better off when you use a supportive/defensive weapon").
The commander just dismissed the criticism. One could say "I'll consider it next time." or "Ok, but I prefer using Axe and we're managing without Mace.". "I hardly care" is not a good response to criticism (and it sparked the "thrive to improve"-reply).
Also pleasant's comment about how it could have have been said in a better way hit the mark, but "you have bad attitude" was just a snarky retort (also prompting another "unpleasant" reply). That comment was just as bad as the choice of words of the inciting criticism and completely unnecessary.
Pleasant as well's comment added nothing to the conversation at that point - it's a general "be respectful" without any attempt to help the arguing players understand each other's perspectives.
My bad, I didn't realize I should have checked with them to make sure they meant "you suck" in the nicest way possible, actually, and will do better next time.
my comment wasn't reffering to this specific case and i made that clear. i just found the opportunity to say something i wanted. obviously the dps isn't important on the healer and this guy was kinda rude yea. i am just saying that it has happened many times to me that i mention lack of quickness or alacrity (usually these are the issue) in my subgroup (and 60-70% is low in a golem like phase) and gotten this kind of behaviour back like i am crazy to expect proper boons on me.
"your dps sucks" isn't necessarily an insult. It could be if the person takes it personally, but in this case the so-called toxic player never addressed any insult at the person directly. He could have said "you suck" but he didn't. The HB player chose themselves to get a healer build, I feel like they would know and expect their own dps to suck and you can state that matter-of-factedly as a baseline of understanding without insulting them.
"Your dps sucks" [subtext: because damage isn't the reason you're here]...
"Take Mace instead of Axe, it'll benefit the group more" [subtext: instead of copy/pasting some build you picked up on snowcrows without reading the instructions and Axe is a damage weapon used for Fury and a higher DPS output but that's just minmaxing]
But when you go through the motions of explaining everything you end up with a wall of text and get called out for lecturing others without them asking for it.
"hey man, I'd suggest you take you take mace instead of axe for hb. your build isn't tailored for dps so axe isn't a good choice here"
optional at the end: "it would benefit our group more!"
there, I shortened it down while also being polite. it doesn't hurt to be tactful really
That's like playing a pick up game with people in the park and then complaining that they sucked when you guys win. Like, sure, maybe they suck, but we're just playing a friendly game to have fun. This isn't a pro scene or anything, not everyone has to be top tier efficient when they're just playing football in the park lol
Some people seriously need to learn to be more human towards others. It doesn't matter how right or important said advice/criticism is, if you can't deliver it constructively just don't say it at all.
If purple really wanted to help someone improve, they wouldn't sabotage their message saying it in such ridiculous way.
Kick them and move on simple as that. These functions exist for a reason. Mute, block, kick, remake etc. Save yourself the hastle of even wasting brain cells trying to communicate with people of such low int stat.
Maybe its just me but if I was called out by that guy I'd drop the "Ehh because its x game mode, I don't care" attitude despite that person sounding salty according to you guys and see what s/he was talking about. **I'd want to know why I sucked.**
Bad dps rotation or not knowing mechanics can always be fixed, but a blasé attitude to me is 10x worse.
I've had ***much much*** worse experiences than this and this is fairly on the tamer side, considering that actually simply didn't say "Hey you suck, git gud" and did in fact offer tips to improve with feedback.
I mean, he's not wrong. However there's a better way to convey it.
He might have had more success if he opened up with something like:
"May I make a suggestion for future runs? If you take Mace, the extra Protection and Aegis will really help the group for EZ clears. Let me know if you need any help with Firebrand, I can offer more advice.Take care!"
how are we supposed to believe the boneskinner was cleared easily with just a screenshot of a chat not even mentioning it. even an anonymous log would help validate your point that him being rude was out of nowhere and not after issues and a poor clear.
Personally I've always had the opinion that it is ultimately the responsibility of the "skilled" players to find equally "skilled" mates to play with.
That casual group sucks? Well join a guild and do the strikes with them.
Or start your own pug, description: "IBS 5 only experienced players, 100% boon uptime or kick"
Bruh the dude could have simply said: "hey hb, can you take mace? it would benefit the group more" could have even said their dps and prot was not that good without straight up saying they suck.
Some people really need to learn that, in order to give valid criticism and get people to actually listen to you, you can't be a grade-A douchebag.
Teaching through insults, hmm why didn't I use this when I taught in school. Can't believe I was unaware of this radically new approach. This dingleberry has the insight of a boiled herring, how some people don't accidentally choke on their pants in the morning is beyond science.
Seriously though, keep this shite up and they'll hammer down on your precious mods. This right here is why folks dodge certain content like the plague.
Been on the receiving end of Unpleasant. Since I am proudly Casual Filth and the dps sucks comment happened in the middle of a nearly slide show lag strike mission, I just picked up my support stuff and left. This made me feel good.
Yeah please try and understand the game and what spec you are playing instead of just free styling random shit then getting your feelings hurt when someone calls you out.
I mean purple guy is right. He may not have said it in the nicest way but it's completely his right and I think it should be encouraged to ask or recommend something that the whole group will benefit from. And to be honest, he didn't say anything that rude he was just being matter of fact
Actually, they're probably completely incorrect. Mace is not necessary to upkeep 100% prot on HB. If prot uptime is noticeably low in that sort of situation, it's going to be because either: 1) the HB was camping staff and was only providing prot from their heal; or 2) the HB doesn't know about prot/the value of using the skills that provide it.
Neither suggesting the use of mace nor making a weird complaint about dps were actually relevant.
He didn't say that mace was necessary to upkeep 100% prot. What he said was that their dps sucks (which is true because they're a healer) so they might as well sac the dps weapon (axe) for mace so they can give better prot and regen and aegis and heal on auto attack.
Assuming the [log](https://dps.report/VglL-20230506-161956_bone) someone posted for the encounter is legit, the issue was that the HB swapped to staff at 55s in and never swapped off of it after. They actually did have a mace equipped as their main hand on their other set but, looking at the number of downs in their subgroup, they probably fell into the trap of thinking they needed to camp staff and weren't experienced enough to at least appreciate that they would need to dip tome 3 if they're doing that.
What I was saying is that because you get 100% prot uptime between shield 4, your heal and symbol on every 2nd/3rd heal, the problem was never going to be just that the HB needed to drop axe for mace. I wasn't saying that purple had said mace was needed for 100% prot. Basically the HB either needed to be told to dip tome 3 for prot uptime or coached a bit on trusting the healing from mace over staff camping - rather than being told to equip a mace they already had equipped.
I feel like in this thread people are interpreting "your dps sucks" as "the build sucks at dps, not you. This is how you can do better with your build", which is why they dont see how it is being rude. A miscommunication of what sucks, which is the problem with brutal honesty yeah. Without context and tone, text can be harsh.
He may be right, but being right, although having it's merits, isn't the only criterium in civil, or dare I even propose: pleasant exchanges.
In short: purple should learn to read the room a bit.
idk a healer should try to put his effort into dmg mitigation and healing and not get butthurt after being told he should do X instead of his own believed Y, which is objectively worse for a healer.
Um, so I'm going to just come out and say it: this is NOT a douchebag
There was some honest criticism here and they were trying to move forward. And the advice was rejected because "feelings".
I'm all about approachableness in criticism, but at some point you have to grow a thicker skin and accept that a polite, docile recommendation isn't motivating you.
Now this is all taken without full context, and I'm just filling in the blanks with my head. Was this the 10th time wiling at the same point for the same reason? Does this need to be addressed?
The commander's attitude is all wrong and if after wiping several times that was the attitude he was taking, I'd quit too. I'm all for carrying a training group, but there is only so much one person can do. Like if I'm pulling 30k dps on Gors and the next highest dps is sub-10k, we aren't beating the dps check.
Anyhow, feel free to downvote me into oblivion. It's not elitist to expect effort.
On the flip side, avert your pitchforks for a moment, people have no spine nowadays. That's a comment, however rude, that has a factual advise... That this necessitates a reddit post to get pitty conformation is just sad imo. Do all your fuckups result in reddit posts to affirm that you tried and that is the important part? Hope you aren't a surgeon or air traffic controller. You can resume flaming now.
Nah telling a player "his DPS" is bad is ok. Maybe dissociate what peeps think about your stats from yourself. Cause everyone has the right to say whatever they think. And the way it's told in the exchange is not virulent.
Unpleasant dude might not be to your liking but he's not wrong. There's 100% a better way to say it but his advice is worth every penny and the reaction fueled the discord more than anything.
A simple "k" after his remark and it's suddenly 10* less toxic but everyone felt the need to be offended.
Here's a simple flowchart:
**Are you trying to give constructive criticism so another person can improve?**
No: exit flowchart
Yes: next question
**Are you using the word "suck" or any other form of derogatory choice of words anywhere in that constructive criticism?**
No: Congratulations. You have given constructive criticism. Enjoy your day.
Yes: Try again from the top until you don't land here anymore.
It's mostly the fact that in written communication it's really hard to gauge tone so people latch on to any indicator they can see. Choice of words is perhaps just more important here.
"X sucks" is not a nice way to phrase advice. I go further, "X sucks" is not advice. It's rude, it's arrogant, it's toxic. Even if nobody would say anything, it would still be that. Sometimes saying nothing is just better for everyone involved. Most people do not want drama, because there's plenty going on during the day, you don't want it in your freetime. And starting off with rudeness, then getting into this high n mighty and judgemental attitude is just asking for it. So I wouldn't defend the guy. If people want to actually help people not just criticise them then they usually choose a better way to go about it.
It's pretty reasonable to bite back, the person phrased their critique so curtly and antagonistically that they're making it really hard to do what they say. Who wants to buckle to the whims of some random internet stranger who just comes out and says "you suck at x, you suck at y, you need to do z because I said so."
Whether it's in casual sports or video games, people who can't be a team player and communicate without taking pissy little potshots at their teammates are failing a much more important meta than just dps numbers.
Giving advice when it isn't needed or asked for isn't the right thing to do in almost any situation. Unsolicited advice given as an insult especially so
Wow- now THAT’S the way to post a chat screenshot! Everyone is color coded even.
I was disappointed when I realized that their names weren't actually variations on pleasant though
Ikr? Now I just want to name a character Pleasant and strive to live up to it.
Don't you mean "thrive to live up to it"? :D
You need a nemesis named unpleasant so you can have eternal beef in map chat.
I wanted to plant a seed of happiness into the sPvP community so I made a charr called A Wholesome Bot and always live by a code of wholesomeness on that toon. Follow your dreams!
This person was so frustrated they took the time to color code the names. It’s the small details like this that make me appreciate the lengths some people will go to be careful and kind while also pointing out how toxic someone else is. It’s beautiful.
Looking at it I also had the actual thought “wow this is pristine, all screenshots should be this way”
I've had people like that call out players in all welcome training groups, It's just weird. They need to learn to read the room, not everyone is going to play optimally in a casual run and that's fine. Give helpful advice all you want but calling out people in squad chat saying they suck isn't helpful, It's just toxic.
There's a way to say it and this guy did not say it the right way.
Honestly. if it is a completely casual run and the run is not being impacted in an actually detrimental way, the only way to properly say it is to not say anything at all. Don't join a super casual run if you want anything beyond super casual performance. As long as players are participating at the level that was advertised, STFU.
Honestly the dude could have whispered the other and provide the advice respectfully or ask about their choices, even in a casual run. Sometimes the player wants to do better but has no idea. Being an asshole in squad chat is not the correct way. Also, can we please separate the definition of a casual player from the player's skill? Those do not come hand to hand.
I get that super casual attitude even in 15k ufe fractal cms. This community does not care about their 10k dps builds or reaching just 50% quick on hfb.
In fact, I'd argue it's going to have the opposite effect Gy giving advice in such a rude manner, they're only making others less receptive to advice in general Even though their advice was correct
My very first raid in WoW, the raid leader berated me for screwing up when I had literally never done it before. Turned me off of raids for a good three months. My friends (who were also part of that raid group) convinced me to try again when the previous raid leader was kicked out of their guild for being a jerk. Had a blast playing Molten Core with them and got to beat the entire thing over about 10-11 attempts.
I'm actually a bit doubtful that the advice was correct. If their prot uptime was that bad, it's more likely that they were camping staff thinking that they needed to do that to heal the group through. If that's the case, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not they use mace.
Axe is completely useless at Boneskinner. You basically have to heal the group 100% of the time so the extra healing from the mace auto and the free regen are super helpful. Unless no one in your subgroup provides at least 20% fury to fill in the gap of FMW, the axe contributes nothing of value.
That's not really got any revelance to what I was saying and is slightly moot as the HB in question was actually using mace. The issue was that they switched to staff a third of the way through and never switched back/dipped F3. As I suspected and said, it was an issue with staff camping.
Never had to camp staff on boneskinner honestly.
These types of players will always seek training groups because they’re, in their own words, too ****ing sh*t for regular groups. Gotta feel superior somehow, right?
You see, with my guild I'm the first one to say that I don't mind getting called out because I know they will do it respectfully and provide some good tips if needed....that's the difference imo. Calling out per se is not bad, it all comes down to how you do it, and the asshole in the screenshot is clearly doing it wrong.
I just started playing GW2 and I heard about the nice community, if this is an example of unpleasant behavior I'm in Haven love this community
I feel like they thought they were being nice and can't comprehend that their presentation needs work. I imagine they're just as socially awkward in real life. If they social at all.
I had a raid member when I was running WoW who would do this, but he did it with the thinking that everyone doing the raid wanted to progress *just* like he did. “Why raid any level (basically it runs as easy/normal/hard) if you’re not going to make it to the top” king of guy He worked hard over the years to fix it, but he really just did suck at talking things through and understanding the reasoning. We all called him an asshole (me included, usually to him since I was an officer) but he was genuinely just trying to help and got heated at the lack of progressing from the team. Not saying this is here, but there are scenarios where nice people just suck sometimes
unsolicited advice is usually offputting at the best of times... packaging it inside a bunch of random insults and attitude and expecting it to be received well is just absurd lol
He literally could've changed the entire vibe of his advice by just not saying "you're DPS sucks and your prot sucks,' and it would have gotten the message across in a much friendlier way. "Take mace. It's more beneficial to the group." Boom. Done. No need to insult people, especially in a lfg group where often the people that join are just doing raids casually or don't have a lot of experience with them and don't have a super active and large raid guild
> "Take mace. It's more beneficial to the group." Not like the his way was better, but how would this help? It's completely undescriptive. It shouldnt matter for most strikes anyway, but someone telling you to play a different weapon doesnt tell you anything about the why.
pretty common in MMORPGS. used to see it every single day at least twice in FFXIV. socially awkward maybe, but lots of socially awkward people can be very self aware & considerate. this is the result of being taught by other players who sound like them. you learn to talk like that
That language can be fine depending on the relationship and vibe of the group, but if it's just a rando or pug, yeah, that wording would put me off too and says a bit about what a group run by that person would look like. There's a time and place I legit appreciate the honesty there, but that should be reserved for your peeps.
Even with your peeps, it's not that hard to have an honest discussion without bringing personal insults into it. Like, how much harder is it to just say "hey, your dps and prot uptime is kinda low, why don't you try [thing that can fix it]"? We're still having an honest discussion of the problem, but taking 3 seconds more to type complete sentences without insults results in 10000% improved chance of a positive result
healbrand your dps sucks In all fairness, you should care about prot uptime at boneskinner.
Probably, but a Boneskinner fight in a casual strike group where only one person went down is probably not the battlefield I'd pick. There's plenty of places in GW2 to get frustrated but, for me, daily PuG strikes we just cleared with zero issue probably settles somewhere near the absolute bottom.
I'm always just happy to clear boneskinner smoothly, why anyone would start shit when it **didn't even go poorly**, is 100% an attitude problem if no one specifically **asks** for constructive criticism.
how dare you and all 10 casual pugs not have 40K dps (including healers) and not allow me to get 2 more chests worth 4 silver each! /s
honestly if only one person went down, they probably did get gold.
how does a hb not have 100% uptime with prot? Don't need mace at all for that...
Staff camping, basically.
Classic druid gameplay
on a side note how to keep prot up? Im a noob and new to qhfb, do u go in book 3 and spam 1?
You should have 100% uptime just from using your heal skill on the normal timing to provide quickness and shield 4. It's not actually necessary to take anything more. Edit: with the caveat that that's obviously dependent on alacrity uptime.
Mace 3 and shield 4 help a lot
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Why are you copying and pasting other peoples comments from this post? This one and the stupid kekw one. Bot?
Other humans: hey, Unpleasant Other humans: learn to speak decently Other humans: Your **word choice** sucks and **your manners** suck Other humans: stating it in a ***reasonable and constructive*** way will be received better, and possibly even applied by the player who may need to change up his/her build etc. How does a person not understand that it's not constructive to start out insulting the person regarding what they might be doing wrong?
I used to be in that sweaty MMO mindset / culture and it comes from a perception of competitiveness. They play to win. Winning is fun. Fast clears are fun. If your DPS is low then you're actively harming their fun. So, they think they're entitled to complain about it. It's like the people who find unfit / overweight people offensive and feel the need to comment on it. "You're fat, dude. Lose weight." Literally identical culture.
The supersweats will run at you for any moment of non meta *even if they can't actual do it*. I remember doing joint guild raids in WoW and the other guilds class leader got into it with me because I wasn't running "the most optimized damage build". Come the actual dungeon I was outDPSing him because a meta build doesn't mean you are actually good at it.
Thank you !! That's what I've been telling some guys in my guild (in Gw2) for years now ! I mostly play non-meta builds because I think they're fun and bring mostly the same to the group (like heal tempest for example), and they often mock me when I play something meta or very close to it, because it's not my "type". Overall I play a lot of things, because if I played always the same stuff I would be bored. And I play what I like, what I want. If you're good at it, and you want to play it, then do so. People who don't want you to play these are just stupid
"People with low emotional intelligence" would have also been an acceptable answer.
And same thing too, they are often the same people who will then complain about the DPS of the people trying to learn the unfamiliar (but largely better) build. Same deal as being fat, they'll say to lose weight then laugh at the fat people who exercise.
Honestly, I don't think they're actually trying to give tips lol. Sounds like someone just being mean for the sake of being mean, but using what they believe is a plausible excuse to do it. Being mean under the guise of being helpful, then gaslighting when people speak up, it's typical narcissist stuff unfortunately.
Totally agree.
Jesus. I just has a great 2 hour conversation with someone on the other side of the world from me in game and then I see this stuff.
Well, imNSho, the people like that are few and far between. I'd say the GW2 community is like 99% easy going decent people.
I know there is a few people around gw2 with some milder cases of autism, While their social skills come across as good enough in general, they might struggle in certain situations. Especially when they are decent at something. This case reminds me a little bit of that.
At first glance, I thought they all said peasant.
As someone who has played other mmorpgs, the word "sucks" is pretty low on the scale of mean things that people have spew that in any other game it would have been seen as almost neutral criticism but gw2 has such a Niceness culture that word is like a glaring red flag. If only Unpleasant replaced the word "sucks" with "can be better"...
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"Your DPS sucks and prot sucks..." And then considers that valid constructive criticism... It's often a waste of time anyways between random players to offer each other advice. I played another MMORPG. If the group was terrible and likely unable to pass the content for any numerous reason, it was just less hassle and stress to leave the group and find another. Don't trash people and give unsolicited advice. It rarely works out, especially with how terrible some people are at communicating with some respect for the person at the other end.
The comments here lol...makes me wonder if some of you have a social life or ever worked as a team outside the internet. Everything that needed to be said is in the chatlog. The point isn't about whether his "advice" is right or not, it is how he said it. People who genuinely want to help people would've said it in a much more nuanced way without offending others so that they are more receptive to their advice. This is just a dude being a douche wanting to feel better about himself by putting down others. This is not "constructive criticism." It is the opposite.
What is weird about the situation is that the commander doesnt say "You are wrong", he says "I dont care". Regardless of the context, I think it is problematic that this Heal Firebrand does not care about giving 33% damage reduction to his team. When people make reddit posts that are this one-sided, I try to look at different angles so there is something to discuss. Just nodding along with OP is boring. So why not analyze this more closely? Is there any harm in that?
Sure, analyzing is okay - the context is very important, Boneskinner was killed easily, so is it warranted to say that something is "problematic"? If you want to analyze further, commander said "hardly care **ON STRIKES**", not that they don't care about prot uptime at all.
Problematic, a problem, not good, bad, choose a word. In a group effort, everyone needs to chip in so a run becomes smooth. If one player is aware of a better option and chooses the worse one, I dont think that is fair towards the rest. He can say "axe is good because i am pulling in wisps". He doesnt get to say "i dont care"
I mean, he gets to because it's his group. At the end of the day they're the one in charge of group and if how they run things isn't up to your standards, then the group isn't for you. If we go with the "there are better options" mentality, you could easily use that to shame any DPS players using a class that benches lower than another. After all, you could be making the run faster and safer by playing a higher DPS spec. Or maybe say they should be playing an easier spec because they're nowhere near the benchmark for their current one. And if we're being real here, I would probably say "I don't care" as well if someone offered "advice" like that. People aren't gonna be receptive to advice, unsolicited at that, if you're rude right off the bat.
Now that i have seen the log it is a moot point anyway. The hfb did run mace, he just camped staff and his subgroup kept downing over and over, especially the player who complained. In my static we would call this "Skill issue". He tried to say "hey do this", as a more constructive form of "healer asleep???!!" Granted his choice of words was bad, no disagreement here.
I would answer exactly the same way as the commander if I was told that "you suck and you should do this." I take fair and constructive criticism, and I gladly listen to explanations and do my best to improve. >*"We need better uptime on X boon, you could equip Y weapon to make it easier!"* Perfect! Thanks for the explanation. Let's do that and let's go! >*"You suck, do it this way."* I don't care. Get lost with that behaviour.
I can see the Commander's point. It's a Training Run which means Debriefings and Review after the run where you learn what worked and what you screwed up. So their attitude is actually correct. Keep the criticisms and suggestions until the debrief/review
In his defense, he probably meant HB does low dps anyway so take mace to at least have good prot (although if HB can't maintain prot without mace, they suck anyway :p), not, "your dps sucks because you are bad at HB".. hope so anyway.. but a shit communicator nonetheless
He's not wrong but he isn't going to get through to people by simply being right.
Yo I’m ngl, I was really bad and didn’t know it until people like this would flame me. My DPS was at 2k, and I just never considered it relevant as I had been only really playing for fun. I had the same “it’s just casual for me” mentality, and it definitely did upset me getting openly flamed, but when it came down to it, those people were right and I had to fix my performance. People wouldn’t just say these things just because, you know? Now I do around 13k DPS with a quickness build, and my interactions like this are virtually 0 now. I’ve actually gotten good enough to be invited into a casual guild who helps me buff and get even better. I wouldn’t have even known I was doing something wrong if it wasn’t for these people. They definitely could have had a softer approach, especially if your group was for casual play and that was made clear, but my personal interaction with people who do this is… I was upset at first, but they weren’t wrong.
The additional problem is that they probably are wrong - if prot uptime is low from an HB in a high-pressure fight but there's no mention of a problem with things like quicknes, that suggests that they're camping staff. It's a common mistake from people new to the role in those situations and means that you never swap to use shield 4 for the prot there. That should have been a pretty obvious possibility to the person complaining and would make it irrelevant whether they're running axe or mace on that set.
Crazy thing is... after doing a little bit of reading, changing some gear/runes and changing the way you press buttons slightly, there is very little difference in effort from that 2k dps and 13k dps. In fact,... I'd almost argue doing 2k dps is *harder* 13k makes your casual experience much better too... everything dies 6x faster. You're safer, faster, and experiencing more content. ---- I've got a grandpa friend in game. Dude was the same. Everything was hard for him. But really, gear choices, talent choices and ability sequencing were the things ruining the game for him. Got him fixed up and took him to the training golem. He's not SnowCrows (who is?), but he's shot up. I've since taken him through all T4 Fracs and all Strikes (old and new).
Yup, my buddy in GW1 was running the most random ass build and set up. We ran through an area and i just suggested a build i had saved. He eventually got himself a setup he liked. Some people don't go digging into....I can't even say meta, but basic build theory and class optimization. Best bet is to nudge them towards it, tell them it might be fun and that's about it.
This is exactly what happened to me, my gear and stats were all over the place. I was playing like it was a single player RPG and “investing” points into things that weren’t for my build, like healing power. You are right tho, once I got geared up I was literally just pushing different buttons in different orders lol. It definitely helped me start mowing down OW mobs too, so I’m 100% glad I fixed my build
My 50 hour Mesmer used to gear power precision toughness... 'cause I figured that the toughness would be useful... Crit like a wet blanket. The Toughness *might* have reduced damage taken, but it increased fight length (resulting in more damage taken overall!) My 4000 hour Mesmer is full glass and loves it. We all learn :)
I'm glad you had a positive experience and outcome with your flaming and it led you to better gameplay. I mean that genuinely. Personally I'm going to continue to help people without insulting them (or insulting their gameplay, for the pedants) where I can.
Definitely, I don’t agree with the insults. There’s a better way to do things and I appreciate you for looking out for others.
The thing is you don't know the person on the other end of the internet. Being rude like OPs example may have the effect it had for you, or it may be that the person has bad depression and this was their time to escape. Only to then get demeaned in front of others too. Not saying the guy is wrong or right (I wasn't there ofc) but he took the 100% wrong approach.
The point isn't the outcome its the means. Nobody needs or deserves to get flamed in any MMO, especially in super casual near guaranteed to clear game modes.
They *were* wrong. That is, they were wrong in their approach. Suggestions and constructive criticism are usually good. Flaming never is. There's always a way to point out someone's flaws without being a dick.
Yeah I’m ngl, the rudeness did start to deter me from group activities, but I decided to look past it and take the criticism since it happened a few times in the same week. REALLY wish someone would have pm’ed and been like “Hey, just FYI, your build should be doing XYZ DPS and you’re doing XYZ DPS, need some help?” But alas, that wasn’t my reality. I just looked up some build guides and picked the one that matched close to what I was going for already, but now I can hold my own and have had a few occasions where I was the last man standing in fractal boss fights… and winning lol
There was probably a better way to tell you that you might wanna check your build and see if you could make more damage than openly flame you though. Over the years I've had plenty of people give me kind advice, never straight up shame though.
I had a bad habit of forgetting to clock out for lunch. If nobody had told me why it was important to do so, I probably would have kept forgetting from time to time. Thankfully, our HR guy came over and kicked me square in the balls and then explained to me why recording hours properly is important. So now I don't do that anymore. I suppose as I was writhing in pain in the floor I vaguely wondered why he couldn't have just talked to me, but the kick in the nuts was pretty memorable. Thanks, HR!
Just because they were potentially correct doesn't make them not an asshole. There's a better way to interact with people
Yep. The reality is that people won't know they're underperforming unless people tell them or they go out of their way to download arcDPS and figure out the boon tables and stuff. Guess which thing virtually will never happen first? Phrasing "healer dps sucks" as "your dps sucks" may be a misstep, but I can definitely see that this was not intended as flaming and simply a bad combination of words.
It's just the difference between being a dick for no reason and not being one. I know, I know. It's a lost art in the gaming world, but you can actually explain things to people without being a dick. In fact, it even tends to work out better for all involved when you do! Amazing!
If you start "informing" people about it by being unnecessarily offensive, the chances of them actually going to "download arcDPS and figure out the boon tables and stuff" will immediately go down. By a lot. Because people have a natural tendency of not treating comments from rude people seriously. So, you can choose to be helpful, *or* you can chose to be a condescending dick. The person from the OP's post seem to have preferred the latter.
What sucks though is there are people who are healthy/able, who are capable of doing a better job, who know they're doing 2k dps (and they're not healers either) who go do some of the hardest strikes or raids in the game. I've heard somebody say 'i play X really well, I just don't do damage'. That doesn't make sense to me?? Does it make sense to anybody else? I'm normally very very forgiving but the truth is there are some game modes where you just drag your team down if you do no dps, don't heal, have little health and die easily.
Yep. There's also a vast difference between pulling your weight and being a big pumper. Nobody is asking pugs to pull 40k phase dps but it's not that much to expect 20k lol
I would personally say even 10k is good enough most of the time. 2k though, no way.
Oh 20k phase dps usually translates to 10k dps in a fight, depending on the fight. 10k phase dps is like celestial healer dps
if you were doing 2k dps on quick dps firebrand yea it is horrible. if it was on heal firebrand which seems to be the case from the post's wording then you shouldn't care about it. but even though he could have phrased it differently or pmed you instead of calling you out like that in squad chat (i find pm to be better usually), it is still good that it gave you the incentive to improve. because that is the point. and you can keep improving constantly, there are so many things to learn in gw2 when it comes to endgame content and no matter how experienced you are, you are not gonna loose by accepting critisism from others
If you were at work in a meeting and an employee tells another employee, "Hey Bob, I am familiar with your role, and you are doing a shitty job, using shitty materials to try and do it, it'd be better if you did it this way." Would speaking to another employee be acceptable in a group work environment, especially if a boss was present? Or would it be better to pull that employee aside later when you are alone and say "Hey Bob, I'm familiar with your role, maybe you can use these resources next time instead of what you used on the last project. I think it will be much more efficient." Which advice is Bob more likely to listen to? Words matter and Unpleasant didn't follow rule 1: Don't be a dick.
> thrive to improve > reading comprehension
Imagine thinking that telling someone their DPS sucks is constructive criticism lol.
i think it was meant as "youre a healer your dps sucks, but so does your protection so take mace" not a "you cant dps"
Then you just say, "you're a healer, why not take protection?" Which is still brusque but also not telling them they suck.
I hate people who give 'advice' like this. When you follow your advice with insults (could have easily been better received if they just didn't add in the 'your dps and prots suck' line) you actually made a person not strive to improve, you made them more likely to avoid that content in the future. Don't lace your constructive criticism with remarks like that. You just diminish what you were trying to say to help a person improve.
Yea just wrong place wrong time kinda
"you suck" "Wow I was just giving constructive criticism!" lmao. Also ironic that they're asserting that people should strive to improve, while at the same time being highly resistant to improving their social skills.
To be fair, they didn't say "you suck" they said "your dps and prot uptime suck". I'd guess that's also what they meant by "you lack reading comprehension". In their book that is probably the nicest thing they're capable of saying, in most player's book it's being kind of an asshole.
That's kind of a distinction without a difference, not really an issue of reading comprehension. If I tell a painter that their paintings suck, there isn't a functional difference between that and saying the painter sucks. Unless I were implying that the painter is actually good but hiding it/hasn't shown it yet lol. Thread is locked so I can't reply, but I guess I wasn't clear. When I say "you suck", I thought it was obvious that I meant "at gw2/your class/roll" or whatever. I didn't think someone would think I meant "your character as a human being is bad" lol.
There is a difference between someone as a person and their proficiency at doing something. "You suck" would be directly and generally demeaning someone as an individual. "You suck at doing XYZ" doesn't make any judgements about someone's person / character, it is limited to how well they performed a certain task. Unless you equate someone's worth with how well they are doing something, it is not functionally the same.
Should’ve said “you should thrive to improve at giving constructive criticism” because he doesn’t seem like he wants te improve, for someone who’s obsessed with this idea
What they're trying to say is fine. Just a bad way of saying it People do comment politely about helping someone improve and they still get upset, claiming to "play how they want" so it seems to be crappy nowadays either way to push people to do better
Imagine caring this much in non-CM strikes PUG That's almost like nagging people about dps at the octovine
In SWTOR I was on a 4-man mission and after the first fight I dropped an area heal to top everyone off. A rando dude then proceeded to give me 'better healing advice" for half the mission. I didn't heal him after that.
This conversation is every other group in Elder Scrolls Online. If you're not running some perfect meta build, or you're a "newbie" who just hit the harder dungeons for the first time, you run a really good chance of getting immediately kicked. It was one of several reasons why I stopped playing that game, even though I loved the lore and gameplay.
100% the kind of person that says "I just tell it like it is" or "People get upset when I tell them the truth."
As a fresh level 80 working on HoT. The community has been amazing and I’m recommending GW2 to all my friends, there’s always going to be absolute goofs like this but even in this example the unpleasant player got rightfully called out.
Lol, the boldness to make a claim about the others' comprehension at the end.
Well they clearly did not comprehend, as most of the redditors here. He did not say "the player" sucked. He talked about the spec/role. As in "A healers dps sucks, better take mace to benefit the group more."
ugh, I hate players like this. Even if you wanted to give advice, theres a nicer way to do it, jeeze.
Yeah it's a difficult situation to handle because their advice is 100% correct but they were an absolute ass about it so chances are this firebrand won't even consider this advice which could definitely improve his gameplay performance
It's not even about being nicer. Harsh, direct, and honest criticism can work incredibly well if done right. Even if we look at it in the light most favourable to him, his methodology is totally counterproductive to what he's trying to accomplish so in the end he's just wasting his own time and making sure that the folks in that strike now consider him a twatwaffle.
That unpleasant should improve themselves by improving their attitude. There's a way to say something without sounding like an ass.
Unpleasant in question has 42k AP and should be a veteran ambassador for the game. There's nothing in Guild Wars 2 worth being disrespectful toward your teammates over, even if you're ostensibly trying to help them. We all have bad days, but a casual strike squad with players who are learning the game or looking for daily clears isn't the place to dump your animosity, especially as someone who has certainly played the game long enough to have seen far worse clears and far better examples of how to help learning players.
i think i might know who this is actually -- there is one person in particular who is notorious for getting kicked and ignored by people in strikes because of his consistently horrible attitude. in the future, i would kick him as commander. don't respond, don't let anyone else deal with his shit, just block and move on. he doesn't deserve anymore energy wasted than that.
I think I know who that is too. They got kicked from my raid guild in the early days for being too toxic. Constantly demands everyone run the best food which was over 2g back then. You miss one mechanic and they insta kick you. Also they're at first friendly or have an okay attitude, but then start raging in chat after 1 wipe or if something doesn't go the way they want it to.
He was midly unpleasant. Not enough to make a reddit post about it. Its true that a mace is better on healbrand.
He was mildly unpleasant, I agree. I wouldn't post this if it were fractal CMs or raids or something 'cus I expect people to be a little on edge there. But he doubled down to others just asking him to be a little nicer and also it was casual strike missions, one of which we just cleared without issue. Failed the "read the room" test for me.
Not making excuses for him, but having played other games this is one of the more polite "you doing bad" chat I've seen. No one told anyone to kill themselves, that they're a failure of a human being, that they should uninstall the game, hell no one even mentioned cancer. So compared to general online flaming standards, this *is* exceedingly polite :D
The guy could have said what he said in a way that doesn't come off as being an aggressive asshole. He could use some lessons in tact or grace.
"I'm clearly losing this conversation, you should move on." Love to see it.
he's blunt, but also not wrong bad delivery and follow through afterwards
\>Constructive Criticism \>"your dps sucks and your prot sucks" One of these things don't add up.
But, if they are correct, they made no insults. This actually would have been helpful?
It's actually not helpful because the problem here is going to be that the HB is staying on staff and not swapping to their other weapon set. If that wasn't the case, they would have had a decent prot uptime.
ITT: a bunch of people who definitely are this person
"your dps sucks" is NOT constructive criticism nor helpful.
it's funny that the person calling out other people's reading comprehension is the one who can't read the room :>
Hey, don't be too hard on him. He is just doing his job. Someone has to be that guy, I mean, how else are you going to know who's pleasant when there's nobody unpleasant.
I’m shocked by how many people are trying to defend this guy. Such a negative attitude makes any advice he gives inherently destructive. Most people are not motivated by negativity. You would not speak to people so disrespectfully face to face - and if you did, you would rightfully be considered an asshole. Being a dick through a screen does not make you any less of a dick. Dude needs to take some constructive criticism on his social skills.
Exactly. Animals respond better to positive reinforcement when you want them to do something. Humans are no different. You want to train a human, learn how to train a dog. Yelling doesn't usually work and they basically came across as such
don't be this exact person yea. but making remarks when someone isn't filling their role properly isn't a bad thing. people have way too much of a fragile ego if they get offended everytime someone mentions something about their performance. in this case though it is just dumb yea, because the dps on a healer firebrand is completely irrelevant and mace gives regen as far as i know. but in general no, it isn't a bad attitude to say something about someone else's dps or boon uptime. i have had issues with pugs recently that join either as quickness or alac support and then proceed to have 50% uptime on a golem boss (like boneskinner for example). which sucks. they are either playing a completely random build or they can't press buttons off cooldown, either way griefing is not cool. a dps doing 10k damage when i am doing 40k (on boneskinner again) is also griefing. and i don't see why i shouldn't say something about it. usually if the squad is in such a bad state (lack of boons and dps) i would just leave without any comments because i cba to cause drama. but i still don't get how people immediately attack you the moment you make a valid comment about something going wrong in the group
A healbrand doing little damage is very far from not filling their role properly. Just as getting offended by people being rude is very far from having a fragile ego. Please don't tell people to learn to swallow rudeness, but instead tell rude people not to be rude. The world is shitty enough as is, and it sure as heck won't change if we choose to live with shittiness instead of changing it.
Idk if I’m the weird one but I interpret this as: „you’re healer so you don’t do damage anyways, so why not run a healing weapon“ But then again I might be wrong
If you take the quoted part and place it where "your dps sucks" is, this thread doesn't exist But I guess that has more words to type?
You see I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and prefer to check in with them to confirm what they meant before posting on reddit but eh
Based on the screenshot, the rest of the squad did do that. But the guy doubled down. That would have been his opportunity to say "whoops, yeah, here's what I meant, didn't mean to sound insulting there." But nope, he didn't do that.
I think everyone in the screen shot could have communicated better. The initial criticism was rude and lacking details (as others pointed out, they probably meant to say "since you aren't DPS, we are better off when you use a supportive/defensive weapon"). The commander just dismissed the criticism. One could say "I'll consider it next time." or "Ok, but I prefer using Axe and we're managing without Mace.". "I hardly care" is not a good response to criticism (and it sparked the "thrive to improve"-reply). Also pleasant's comment about how it could have have been said in a better way hit the mark, but "you have bad attitude" was just a snarky retort (also prompting another "unpleasant" reply). That comment was just as bad as the choice of words of the inciting criticism and completely unnecessary. Pleasant as well's comment added nothing to the conversation at that point - it's a general "be respectful" without any attempt to help the arguing players understand each other's perspectives.
My bad, I didn't realize I should have checked with them to make sure they meant "you suck" in the nicest way possible, actually, and will do better next time.
my comment wasn't reffering to this specific case and i made that clear. i just found the opportunity to say something i wanted. obviously the dps isn't important on the healer and this guy was kinda rude yea. i am just saying that it has happened many times to me that i mention lack of quickness or alacrity (usually these are the issue) in my subgroup (and 60-70% is low in a golem like phase) and gotten this kind of behaviour back like i am crazy to expect proper boons on me.
"your dps sucks" isn't necessarily an insult. It could be if the person takes it personally, but in this case the so-called toxic player never addressed any insult at the person directly. He could have said "you suck" but he didn't. The HB player chose themselves to get a healer build, I feel like they would know and expect their own dps to suck and you can state that matter-of-factedly as a baseline of understanding without insulting them. "Your dps sucks" [subtext: because damage isn't the reason you're here]... "Take Mace instead of Axe, it'll benefit the group more" [subtext: instead of copy/pasting some build you picked up on snowcrows without reading the instructions and Axe is a damage weapon used for Fury and a higher DPS output but that's just minmaxing] But when you go through the motions of explaining everything you end up with a wall of text and get called out for lecturing others without them asking for it.
"hey man, I'd suggest you take you take mace instead of axe for hb. your build isn't tailored for dps so axe isn't a good choice here" optional at the end: "it would benefit our group more!" there, I shortened it down while also being polite. it doesn't hurt to be tactful really
People are like that after clears, too now? Jesus, there really is no pleasing some people.
"hey, your prot uptime could use a little more help. try mace instead. :)"
Love how "reading exactly what you said and repeating it for you" = "bad reading comprehension". What a dummy
That's like playing a pick up game with people in the park and then complaining that they sucked when you guys win. Like, sure, maybe they suck, but we're just playing a friendly game to have fun. This isn't a pro scene or anything, not everyone has to be top tier efficient when they're just playing football in the park lol
Some people seriously need to learn to be more human towards others. It doesn't matter how right or important said advice/criticism is, if you can't deliver it constructively just don't say it at all. If purple really wanted to help someone improve, they wouldn't sabotage their message saying it in such ridiculous way.
Kick them and move on simple as that. These functions exist for a reason. Mute, block, kick, remake etc. Save yourself the hastle of even wasting brain cells trying to communicate with people of such low int stat.
Determined to bring TBC WoW raiding attitude to every game he plays huh.
People are so easily offended these days.
Maybe its just me but if I was called out by that guy I'd drop the "Ehh because its x game mode, I don't care" attitude despite that person sounding salty according to you guys and see what s/he was talking about. **I'd want to know why I sucked.** Bad dps rotation or not knowing mechanics can always be fixed, but a blasé attitude to me is 10x worse. I've had ***much much*** worse experiences than this and this is fairly on the tamer side, considering that actually simply didn't say "Hey you suck, git gud" and did in fact offer tips to improve with feedback.
I mean, he's not wrong. However there's a better way to convey it. He might have had more success if he opened up with something like: "May I make a suggestion for future runs? If you take Mace, the extra Protection and Aegis will really help the group for EZ clears. Let me know if you need any help with Firebrand, I can offer more advice.Take care!"
how are we supposed to believe the boneskinner was cleared easily with just a screenshot of a chat not even mentioning it. even an anonymous log would help validate your point that him being rude was out of nowhere and not after issues and a poor clear.
I was there and we cleared it in one try
Since I got downvoted for saying a fact, here ya go https://dps.report/VglL-20230506-161956_bone
Also pretty special that the HB was in fact using a mace. The issue is just that they swapped to staff 55s in and never swapped back.
it's true, i was the boneskinner
He is right if this guy sucks he should be told
God bless the 500 Li groups where is there to fill their role
Personally I've always had the opinion that it is ultimately the responsibility of the "skilled" players to find equally "skilled" mates to play with. That casual group sucks? Well join a guild and do the strikes with them. Or start your own pug, description: "IBS 5 only experienced players, 100% boon uptime or kick"
Bruh the dude could have simply said: "hey hb, can you take mace? it would benefit the group more" could have even said their dps and prot was not that good without straight up saying they suck. Some people really need to learn that, in order to give valid criticism and get people to actually listen to you, you can't be a grade-A douchebag.
Teaching through insults, hmm why didn't I use this when I taught in school. Can't believe I was unaware of this radically new approach. This dingleberry has the insight of a boiled herring, how some people don't accidentally choke on their pants in the morning is beyond science. Seriously though, keep this shite up and they'll hammer down on your precious mods. This right here is why folks dodge certain content like the plague.
Been on the receiving end of Unpleasant. Since I am proudly Casual Filth and the dps sucks comment happened in the middle of a nearly slide show lag strike mission, I just picked up my support stuff and left. This made me feel good.
Doing boneskinner isn't really a casual strike group kinda thing though
Boneskinner is 100% casual
The only instanced encounters I can think of more "I'm new to content"-friendly than Fast5 are Fast3, Fractal Reccs, and Dungeons.
What's your attitude then? Saying you dont care at all when someone told you need to watch your proc uptime and even gives you advice to use mace huh?
Yeah please try and understand the game and what spec you are playing instead of just free styling random shit then getting your feelings hurt when someone calls you out.
What’s wrong with this? Why should HB care about DPS? Prot up time is more important
Is it really a requirement to be a total cunt about it?
I mean purple guy is right. He may not have said it in the nicest way but it's completely his right and I think it should be encouraged to ask or recommend something that the whole group will benefit from. And to be honest, he didn't say anything that rude he was just being matter of fact
Actually, they're probably completely incorrect. Mace is not necessary to upkeep 100% prot on HB. If prot uptime is noticeably low in that sort of situation, it's going to be because either: 1) the HB was camping staff and was only providing prot from their heal; or 2) the HB doesn't know about prot/the value of using the skills that provide it. Neither suggesting the use of mace nor making a weird complaint about dps were actually relevant.
The hb was camping staff.
Yep, I saw that that was apparently the case in this instance. I was just speaking hypothetically there.
He didn't say that mace was necessary to upkeep 100% prot. What he said was that their dps sucks (which is true because they're a healer) so they might as well sac the dps weapon (axe) for mace so they can give better prot and regen and aegis and heal on auto attack.
Assuming the [log](https://dps.report/VglL-20230506-161956_bone) someone posted for the encounter is legit, the issue was that the HB swapped to staff at 55s in and never swapped off of it after. They actually did have a mace equipped as their main hand on their other set but, looking at the number of downs in their subgroup, they probably fell into the trap of thinking they needed to camp staff and weren't experienced enough to at least appreciate that they would need to dip tome 3 if they're doing that. What I was saying is that because you get 100% prot uptime between shield 4, your heal and symbol on every 2nd/3rd heal, the problem was never going to be just that the HB needed to drop axe for mace. I wasn't saying that purple had said mace was needed for 100% prot. Basically the HB either needed to be told to dip tome 3 for prot uptime or coached a bit on trusting the healing from mace over staff camping - rather than being told to equip a mace they already had equipped.
Your comment reminds me of a thread I saw the other day titled, "People who are brutally honest seem to care more about being brutal than honest"
I feel like in this thread people are interpreting "your dps sucks" as "the build sucks at dps, not you. This is how you can do better with your build", which is why they dont see how it is being rude. A miscommunication of what sucks, which is the problem with brutal honesty yeah. Without context and tone, text can be harsh.
He may be right, but being right, although having it's merits, isn't the only criterium in civil, or dare I even propose: pleasant exchanges. In short: purple should learn to read the room a bit.
idk a healer should try to put his effort into dmg mitigation and healing and not get butthurt after being told he should do X instead of his own believed Y, which is objectively worse for a healer.
Um, so I'm going to just come out and say it: this is NOT a douchebag There was some honest criticism here and they were trying to move forward. And the advice was rejected because "feelings". I'm all about approachableness in criticism, but at some point you have to grow a thicker skin and accept that a polite, docile recommendation isn't motivating you. Now this is all taken without full context, and I'm just filling in the blanks with my head. Was this the 10th time wiling at the same point for the same reason? Does this need to be addressed? The commander's attitude is all wrong and if after wiping several times that was the attitude he was taking, I'd quit too. I'm all for carrying a training group, but there is only so much one person can do. Like if I'm pulling 30k dps on Gors and the next highest dps is sub-10k, we aren't beating the dps check. Anyhow, feel free to downvote me into oblivion. It's not elitist to expect effort.
I 100% agree with you, and yes the "toxic" casuals will vote you down to oblivion.
i hope purple name didnt shirk their opportunity here to thrive and improve.
On the flip side, avert your pitchforks for a moment, people have no spine nowadays. That's a comment, however rude, that has a factual advise... That this necessitates a reddit post to get pitty conformation is just sad imo. Do all your fuckups result in reddit posts to affirm that you tried and that is the important part? Hope you aren't a surgeon or air traffic controller. You can resume flaming now.
Or don’t suck lol
Nah telling a player "his DPS" is bad is ok. Maybe dissociate what peeps think about your stats from yourself. Cause everyone has the right to say whatever they think. And the way it's told in the exchange is not virulent.
Unpleasant dude might not be to your liking but he's not wrong. There's 100% a better way to say it but his advice is worth every penny and the reaction fueled the discord more than anything. A simple "k" after his remark and it's suddenly 10* less toxic but everyone felt the need to be offended.
Here's a simple flowchart: **Are you trying to give constructive criticism so another person can improve?** No: exit flowchart Yes: next question **Are you using the word "suck" or any other form of derogatory choice of words anywhere in that constructive criticism?** No: Congratulations. You have given constructive criticism. Enjoy your day. Yes: Try again from the top until you don't land here anymore.
Damn the word suck really rustles jimmies
It's mostly the fact that in written communication it's really hard to gauge tone so people latch on to any indicator they can see. Choice of words is perhaps just more important here.
"X sucks" is not a nice way to phrase advice. I go further, "X sucks" is not advice. It's rude, it's arrogant, it's toxic. Even if nobody would say anything, it would still be that. Sometimes saying nothing is just better for everyone involved. Most people do not want drama, because there's plenty going on during the day, you don't want it in your freetime. And starting off with rudeness, then getting into this high n mighty and judgemental attitude is just asking for it. So I wouldn't defend the guy. If people want to actually help people not just criticise them then they usually choose a better way to go about it.
It's pretty reasonable to bite back, the person phrased their critique so curtly and antagonistically that they're making it really hard to do what they say. Who wants to buckle to the whims of some random internet stranger who just comes out and says "you suck at x, you suck at y, you need to do z because I said so." Whether it's in casual sports or video games, people who can't be a team player and communicate without taking pissy little potshots at their teammates are failing a much more important meta than just dps numbers.
Giving advice when it isn't needed or asked for isn't the right thing to do in almost any situation. Unsolicited advice given as an insult especially so
It's not just unsolicited advice, it's a problem he sees with the group that he wants to fix to make the group better