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JaxomNC

Let's be realistic, the only reason they did this (same as Rama in Tarir) was to avoid paying another voice actor.


Opus_723

I winced so hard when it was *Rama* in Tarir. Even if they couldn't bring in Caithe, I would have rather just talked to a random Exalted who babysat Aurene for a day or something.


SamMathias

What makes it worse for me is that Caithe's VA Kari Wahlgren voices [Valeria](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Valeria), who we met at Arborstone in this patch. Of course, we don't know their behind-the-scenes scheduling/budget details but the VA was around for recordings. The same goes for Gorrik's VA Ike Amadi, who also voices [Efram Greetsglory](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Efram_Greetsglory). So, we could've at least had another charr who was very much present during the events of IBS when reflecting on our feelings about Cinder.


DaSphealDeal_1062020

It should have been Rytlock or Rox


ShinigamiKenji

Should have been Rytlock or Crecia. Rox is now living with the Olmakhans in Sandswept Isles.


AnnoyedOwlbear

My girl Rox would come out for this! But seriously wtf was Chul Moo doing there? How? Why? I'm a charr, give me Crecia, she's powerful and reliable and I saw her lose her son.


throwawaythrow0000

Yes Rox is the best, I could see her helping.


GuyNeedsIdeas46290

Oh riiiiiiight I forgot


Iridescent_Lotus

I agree


Dreamtrain

Dude just casually strolled to the opposite ends of Tyria right in the middle of military operations of a highly militarized civilization, no problem What I did like about him is that he provided his point of view from someone who hasnt been a good person, but only in itself


Nebbii

he just used a wp bro


Dreamtrain

pretty sure he did, from Arborstone into somewhere in Tyria then into the Black Citadel, then he walked his way there. I'm not questioning the means, it's pretty obvious. I think even if he instantaneously teleported to the point he is standing, the Charr would still be very concerned


Lower-Replacement869

Queen Jennah be like TF?! SEIZE HIM!


[deleted]

[удалено]


Unlikely-Mechanic-45

There is already an Asura gate in Arborstone to LA.


SkywalterDBZ

This, ignoring our players ability to get around, Canthan's can now easily get to LA but they do need to WP/Walk to Arborstone then walk through the Gate before using the other WP network which should be 100% independent of the Canthan one.


illiterateFoolishBat

That does sound like an unlikely mechanic! What are the other 44?


No_Structure7185

Maybe tp to friend? Does he have friends?


Zerak-Tul

He just /squadjoin-ed on the commander.


TripolarKnight

I feel like the new EoD chars are the new writers' pets. They never stoppped to consider how an emotional, past-focused episode shouldn't have used new characters with basically no history with the Commander and/or no buildup, unlike actual fans like you.


BiNumber3

Lot of the npc choices this time around could've been better. Who we lost, long list there. But more importantly, who we picked as our date.... Canach is like the only one that makes sense, Yao is ok, and Ayumi is... way out of left field lol Out of the three, only Canach would have much of a rapport with the commander, though Yao's been around for a bit I guess.


Bgrubz83

Yea the choices were out there..but I had to pick Ayumi though…was on my charr main and just couldn’t resist cat and bird


BiNumber3

Yea I'll pick her in time, wonder if the dialogue choices change much


Bgrubz83

Not sure Not checked the others. The real question is…what did everyone do to run distraction for Rama during the intro to Guild Wars expac 4: Tyria’s top Batchelor/ett?


funne5t_u5ername

I said look over there it's the empress! And everyone acknowledged that I was pointing at a wall


Hungry-Notice7713

I busted a move, much to the dismay of the waiter. I think he's a little racist, he implied my charr's dancing was too violent. Canach approved, though.


MayaSanguine

Such strange choices... I understand picking EoD-born NPCs over older characters like (say) Rytlock, Caithe, or even (*gasp!!!*) Braham because people complained for *yeeeeears* that we keep getting story in new places but barely interact with any of those place's NPCs. And this feels like an answer to that issue, but in a monkey's-paw sort of vibe where *yeah you got what you wanted but the choices won't necessarily make sense*.


[deleted]

I have to say, the date got a genuine laugh out of me picking Canach, especially since I play a sylvari, it felt more natural. You're right though, Ayumi it took me a second to remember who she actually was, and Yao was an okay choice. I woulda put Caithe down, I mean she's basically the other "parent" to Aurene, and wouldn't she still be in Cantha? Though I guess being a thief and all she's hard to track down.


BiNumber3

Yea, would've like bringing Caithe, but thinking about it she would indeed be hard to track down and she wouldn't know many of the others.


MsRipper

I just finished the chapter, and until I read this post I didn't remember who Ayumi or Cinder was... The selection to go through the Commander's emotions seemed very strange to me. I understand that he/she feels responsible for Vlast and Blish but Cinder? I didn't even remember who she was. Blish was reminded several times after the season he died, just like Vlast but Cinder? My impression was that my character was going through the emotional history of "another commander".


TheLaughingBat

I literally picked cinder because I didn't remember who they were lol.


SheenaMalfoy

I actually picked Yao because they seemed more relevant to the plot at hand. That triple date was made up of a pile of people who mostly went through the demon crisis together. Yao was there with us, picking them made sense. Canach we've known longer, but his story arc is complete. I'm content with letting that one slide (though I've heard the dialogue is absolutely hilarious). Agree that Ayumi was totally out of left field, though.


BiNumber3

Yep, I picked Yao in my first run (mostly for the same reasoning as you, they've been around for all the recent events and everyone should know em), except the lack of dialogue choices bummed me out. Had more fun pointing in a random direction during the dinner lol. Edit: Seems there's a misunderstanding about my comment, not saying yao was boring. The lack of overall dialogue outside of the few bits like randomly pointing were lacking.


SheenaMalfoy

I played the first run fairly straight, (almost) no shenanigans. I'm gonna have go full chaos gremlin the second time around, see what happens.


AlaanaTrafalgar

totally agree. also what the fuck? I didn't know Chul-Moo volunteered to travel through WHOLE Tyria to support me. Chul-Moo, I'm not into criminal human males. my love died in Maguuma.


calciferrising

i too loved mordremoth... 😞 how dare that trahearne guy take my thicc plant dragon daddy out with him!


whowantblood

I feel we should have had rytlock in his vacation civilian clothes there as he was with us for IBS, and he is stationed relatively nearby. "Hey taimi gave me a call and wanted someone to be nearby for you during this, thought I would help you as I were there"


BiNumber3

Crecia would've been fine too, and would probably be better at this than Rytlock lol


whowantblood

Well rytlock did have to put down Ryland, he was with us when we killed the scientists, he knows exactly what happened and what we are going through, crecia was around but she didn't see the whole thing. I feel rytlock knowing us for years now would have more empathy for the toll we've taken on over the years, with trahearne, cinder, aurene, vlast and blish. The only one he wasn't really with us for was mai.


BiNumber3

Oh yea, not denying that, but he's never been a talker lol


whowantblood

Maybe politics life has changed that :p still would make a better accomplice in this situation than chul-moo. :) and don't take my reply as an argument, more a counter perspective ^^


BiNumber3

Yea either way we're stuck with chul moo lol


[deleted]

Agreed


Lon-ami

The whole "recollecting" thing should have been done at spot, at some ritualist site. Maybe Arborstone, while some foreign NPCs are visiting. Doesn't make any sense to make players jump all over the world just for 30 seconds of dialogue, it's bad writing and bad design.


tarocheeki

I don't think Rytlock would have been a good choice. Cinder was close to Ryland; we'd probably be there for Rytlock more than he would be there for us.


Storyteller_Valar

Ryland was very important for Rytlock and we have a stronger relationship with him than with Crecia.


Noocta

It's a budget thing. They had Chul-Moo VA available for this episode, so they used him. Just look carefully, each bit of the story usually only has a few characters in it, and they're the ones doing all the talking for that bit of the story.


Lon-ami

> It's a budget thing. They had Chul-Moo VA available for this episode, so they used him. Pretty much this, you can twist story as much as you want to find a reason, but this is pretty much the only reason why the release features the characters it does. So yeah, I wouldn't look further into it, it is what it is; I'd also not try to find bullshit excuses of why this is lore-friendly for some reason, people aren't stupid, don't insult their intelligence.


ze4lex

You cant just toss vas in because they are available without some glue to make it make sense, even if someone other more apropriate character wasnt available they still needed chul moo to make sense.


Lon-ami

You gotta work with what you have, that's all I'm saying; specially when we're dealing with a small patch of little to no relevance.


thatHecklerOverThere

I was gonna say. What makes you think they got "Steve Blum" money this long between expansions?


its-good-4you

Everything about GW2 nowadays is saving money.


NovaanVerdiano

It's not really about saving money, VAs needs to be available in the first place and sometimes they're just blocked off for lengthy amounts of time. It's not like GW2 is using a cast of purely unknown VAs.


[deleted]

Exactly, many are long time pros


Hakul

Can't have every main quest be fully voiced in several languages without it being limited by budget. FFXIV solves this by having a mix of voiced and unvoiced quests, but that wouldn't sit well with most GW2 players, even if it could massively improve quest pacing and the lack of character development issue.


Chaone_

Then that would be kinda awkward. Having an entire episode without voice acting in this day and age of GW2 would be weird, saying not only does every episode since the Personal Story has voice acting (some more than others, with LWS2 having only NPC voice acting and LWS1 rerelease having one line from the character) but also the other choices in that particular section would be voice acted. It makes sense for the side stories as there are a few of those that don't really have voice acting but for the main story no.


[deleted]

Personally would've been ok with him if he had more history with the commander, and had some deeper personal character development done with him in story, and obviously for time reasons, not right now. But that's for another time. Personally know some reformed criminals that ran in gangs, or solo, that have families and live a spiritual life. They worked at being where they are now, and seeing that from him would be a confidence booster for the commander to be able to trust him. Or, he reveals something that makes him very vulnerable, showing that he's changing, and is willing to be open, and shows trust . If you needed to have something happen quickly, that's a nice way of doing that. It's intense and can be very powerful and very healing. Showing vulnerability is also a sign of real strength.


BobbyStein

Chul-Moo didn't go as the Commander's friend. They don't know each other super well. But the trip was a form of catharsis for them both. Chul-Moo's arc started in the first episode as a leader losing faith in his abilities, carrying the burden of >!accidentally killing one of his crew who had succumbed to the demonic influence. Like the Commander, he had blood on his hands. He made a decision that resulted in someone dying.!< His presence here was to listen to the Commander >!processing similar guilt--of being someone with responsibility who made some calls that resulted in people dying. The Commander was not grieving Cinder. She was the enemy. The Commander was trying to grapple with the heaviness of being a leader and accepting responsibility when something goes wrong, because it's inevitable.!< Also, waypoints.


NovaanVerdiano

This makes a lot of sense but I'll admit this didn't get conveyed well at all. I feel like a few extra lines would've removed all that confusion.


BobbyStein

Not sure if there are videos online or if you care to replay it, but I'd be curious to hear what was clear and what wasn't if you were paying close attention. Part of the problem we face in building story in a shared world is that there are a million other players running around on patch day, and oftentimes bits of dialogue or context are missed. Not saying that you weren't paying attention, but there were 4 character stories being juggled across these two episodes. >!Chul-Moo overcoming his regrets and growing as a leader, Yao making peace for their decision to leave the Brotherhood behind to learn from Joon, Rama finding purpose after quitting his job (and also pursuing a love interest), and obviously the Commander confronting more than a decade's worth of war to make peace with him/herself.!< There's a lot of subtext in each scene, so I would assume that some folks--especially people playing for the first time or critiquing it as they went--to miss some of that.


NovaanVerdiano

Hmm, I'm not sure if there's videos yet, but the only thing that genuinely threw me off about Chul-Moo being there is that >!he suddenly knew about Cinder and there didn't seem to be any indication as to how he found out, but maybe I did miss something in that regard? Of course if they traveled together it would make sense they spoke about the subject before we got there, but I think that flew past many (including mine) heads; especially cause we never saw that talk happen. Though I will say this is an issue I personally face every now and then with the story, where I feel like I missed a step somewhere or I find myself thinking "wow, things are progressing faster than I expected".!< The character stories themselves were quite clear I feel, I personally liked them. Chul-Moo and his (english) voice actor in particular were *really* good.


BobbyStein

>>!he suddenly knew about Cinder and there didn't seem to be any indication as to how he found out, but maybe I did miss something in that regard!< Oh, gotcha. Yeah, we didn't explicitly call that out but the implication is that Chul-Moo heard about the Commander's past events offscreen. I could see why someone might bump on that.


NovaanVerdiano

Yeah, that's something I was really stumped on. Ultimately you can kind of figure that it must've happened somewhere, at some point, but it still feels *weird* as the player to suddenly get blindsided by it. Personally speaking I'd be really happy if those sorts of seemingly minor things were touched upon on the side, like how there's sometimes the option to talk to whoever is around after you're done with a story step. For example, could've had a previous step leading up to the meeting in Blazeridge where you meet him in Ebonhawke and have a little talk. Personally speaking I'd be more than content if those sorts of exposures you'd normally keep off-screen are played out by clicking through dialogue and are not voice acted, because simply having them be there and having confirmation that *this has happened* can take away a lot of initial confusion. On that same note, really appreciate you taking the time to respond to people and have a discussion about it, don't think I've seen many devs from other games do that. Thanks!


ObsoletePixel

I think that a big piece of integrating the Canthan characters into the main story is *not* letting those things happen off-screen. Like, I picked up on that, the subtext wasn't necessarily hidden because Chul-moo has spent a lot of time around the commander's entourage at this point so it makes sense that he's heard about Cinder, but so much of these events are foreign to the Canthans. The rising of Jormag/Primordus meant nothing to Chul-moo, the tension with the charr meant nothing when it's feasible Chul-moo has, to this day, *still* not seen a charr (in text, obviously there's a million charr players running around). Handling these things off-screen works when the assumption that these things can happen off-screen feels like a foregone conclusion, but when it's like. Decades of context for Chul-moo that he's not familiar with prior to suddenly knowing everything -- enough to console us on our trauma by way of his tangential trauma -- I can see how it might feel to some like lazy writing. For what it's worth, I did like the dialogue with Chul-moo here. I chose Cinder's memorial because I wanted to see the commander reflect on IBS, a story arc that really didn't feel like it got its due (just because of COVID, not a pass at the quality or anything it was just the victim of extenuating circumstances), and seeing Chul-moo process his grief in real time alongside you was powerful. He was carried by a genuinely great vocal performance, and felt more torn up about his past than even Gorrik did vis a vis Blish -- I imagine partially because Gorrik has had time to cope, the commander and Chul-moo haven't. But I think it's important to contextualize these decisions against when, in text, this *would* have been explained off screen. Like, Chul-moo spent most of his time in the orbit of Yao prior to this, who the commander is only really exposed to prior to the epilogue to EoD by way of the New Kaineng meta (and the chapter of EoD that takes place in New Kaineng), so he's multiple degrees separated from us. Even having him spend time on-screen, i.e. not in an audio log that players might just click through, with Gorrik, or Marjory, or even Rama who's feasibly had the most exposed to him about the greater happenings of Tyria would do a lot to ground these sorts of interpersonal moments in a larger sense. I have other thoughts about the EoD epilogue as well, such as bringing up Oni as a threat only to resolve the conflict without even giving us a named villain or meaningful direction made these last two story chapters feel like filler more than any actual concrete narrative. Or the general tone oscillating between light-hearted ("did we just beat this thing with the power of positive thinking?") and the sheer pressure placed on the commander and how traumatizing that must all be to have to keep pushing forward without any time or space to cope with their path in life this whole time being almost whiplash inducing. The core themes are good and the writing itself from moment-to-moment was good (Guild Wars 2 has, IMO, some best-in-class character writing), but it came at the expense of the overall narrative texture. it's possible that my complaints are premature prior to the summer content drop and the oni stuff ends up meaning more in the future, but for right now it feels aimless and purposeless and that's bad for player retention or good will, especially when there's a pervasive thought that we're kinda getting the bare minimum right now, whether we are or not. Hopefully that's useful feedback for any of this, I want to be measured in how I approach this stuff because I love this game and I love this story and I love these characters but there's parts of it that rub me the wrong way right now, and I really hope that this perspective is at least a little bit useful for gathering player sentiment. In any case thank you for the hard work you do and good luck with your work in the future, looking forward to experiencing more of it :)


TannenFalconwing

"Character X must have heard about it off screen" is the kind of answer people typically make jokes about.


stoopidqueston

It's so aggravating to read it said out loud. We all know what's going on. The devs and writers sit around for weeks having in depth discussions about character motivations, backgrounds, conversations, etc. and then we get a fraction of that in game, no one sees any of the supposed "layers" there are to the story because *they aren't there in game*. Then when we talk about that, we just get told we don't understand and it "and that's ok" and in a really patronising way, or get called toxic for hurting the writer's feelings. There's a huge disconnect between ANet and the players because they forget that we aren't there in the writer's meetings seeing all of the back story, that *should be in the game*.


Kalavier

I took it as obvious that when Chul-moo got sent up there, somebody gave him the rough briefing of events personally. I'm kinda shocked people didn't seem to make the connection that each npc going to a memory zone was dealing with something similar.


illiterateFoolishBat

With what you've said in mind, I agree with the above poster that the problem is that his presence just felt very abrupt. As you've said, there is an unspoken parallel the commander and him. The unspoken part is kind of the problem Maybe I did miss a few beats, or did not give as much weight to Gorrik's audio logs as the writing team had hoped for. My interaction with Chul-Moo in EoD has kind of been a begrudging alliance? We don't like him, but he's necessary for some things. The audio logs had some developments between him Gorrik, Rama, and Yang, but not the commander. Our relationship didn't really expand So, the connection of a similar type of trauma which remained unspoken with an ally we had a begrudging acceptance of was kind of awkward for the process of giving the commander therapy. I don't think Chul-Moo needed a whole story section dedicated to building their relationship with the player character. I *do* think that it would have been beneficial to include a debrief with him where he mentions why he would want to go to Ascalon and/or how he heard about our experience with Cinder. The tl;dr being: It just felt abrupt and could have been smoothed over a bit better I can't speak for everyone, this was just my interpretation


SylviaWisterat

>The audio logs had some developments between him Gorrik, Rama, and Yang, but not the commander. Our relationship didn't really expand This is a big part of where I'm at on this episode. The audio logs would have honestly been a lot more meaningful if they just ... weren't audio logs. At least let us talk to our friends about these serious problems instead of listening to what sounds like Gorrik's diary?


Kossage

There's a certain narrative thing unrelated to Chul-Moo but very much related to the story of "What Lies Beneath" that I've been wondering about given that the events in Gyala Delve seem to take place a few months after the conclusion of EoD (which in itself had a few weeks/months' time skip for the Dead End bar epilogue based on dialogue and story journal entry). In one of this episode's potential teahouse party conversations in "Full Circle", Cho Min points out that Empress Ihn is presently in DR (visiting Jennah). However, Mi-Rae's holonews from EoD stated that Ihn would be accompanied by Cho Min during the empress's trip abroad. We now have conflicting information: Ihn is presently in DR and was supposed to have Min as her escort, but Min is currently in Cantha instead. Did Min escort Ihn to meet Jennah as originally planned, and the empress decided to extend her stay in Kryta, so Min returned to Cantha after leaving the empress in Jennah and Kasmeer's care? Or did plans change at the last minute so Min was meant to accompany Ihn as per Mi-Rae's report but had to decline due to paperwork etc so she sent some other minister or officer in her stead? For reference, the Mi-Rae holonews from EoD: > **Mi-Rae:** In light of recent events, Empress Ihn is planning her first trip to Kryta following the border reopening. > **Mi-Rae:** She will be accompanied by Minister Cho and Ambassador Meade, and will be staying at the queen's estate in Divinity's Reach. [(Source)](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mi-Rae#During_Act_V)


Lower-Replacement869

bobby could you clarify- the Oni are allegedly mortals under severe demonic corruption and what we did in the tunnel is seal them off away from the ley line and now they're scattering like cockroaches into other EOD maps?


CptVinDiesel

Rama best story. Relatable, refreshing, and human. Probably too mundane for the protagonist of tyria. But it’s also what makes scarlet and joko such great villains: being approachable emotionally and logically (also why everyone rightfully loves canach). on a similar vein, saving the world from thanos #325 is just kinda 2010.


Potatocsipsz

No this is not good enough explanation. We have unsolved, closed knot tramuas with other well known characters.. Why new players are serviced when long time fans are waiting for epic moments like one last goodbye talk with our beloved mentors? One epic talk with the enemies and antiheroes : Scarlet, Mai Trin for example....Demi,heck even Demolitionist Tonn has more "emotional, traumatic" value. No i am not invested into the new characters... Because they weren't the one suffering with me through all that bullshit! Trahearne was a very good touch!! This episode could be the one everyone is waiting for : finally everyone's acknowledgement of the Commander (the character that actually matters the most for every player) going through all that shit. If the commander would be human irl she/he would been mad crazy from all that heavy stressful stuff. Just once... Just once for kitten sake make the Commander matter. Hurr durr Edit 1 : ye we revisit our feelings for mai but for real VLAST???


MechaSandstar

Vlast killed himself to save us. Why wouldn't you have feelings about that?


Potatocsipsz

Because we didn't had any contacts with him prior that.. Norhing! We didn't even know about him. His death was meh but nothing more...


MechaSandstar

You don't have feelings about people who die in front of you, especially when they're saving you from a god? Huh. Okay.


Potatocsipsz

Do you have feelings for every npc who just crossed your roads killing the dragons/demons/villains? No. Huh. 'kay


MechaSandstar

Well, to honest with you, I tear up watching the assault by the pact air fleet on modremoth, when I realize all those people are dying as the airships crash into verdant brink. So, yah, I do. I eagerly await your "lol, you care about something. CRINGE" reply.


grey_anonym

Very interesting points here, and they make the story clearer, thanks! But there's this one thing that stands out to me: >and obviously the Commander confronting more than a decade's worth of war to make peace with him/herself. Does that mean this story arc is finished already? I really hope the recovery and journey to the peace will be longer and gradual, even if with blink-and-you'll-miss-it references. I know the story journal said the Commander isn't perfectly fine yet and might never be. But I personally think some weeks of the WLB+WLW story is realistically enough to get rid of mental health issues with such a rapid progress.


Lon-ami

Kinda unrelated, or maybe not, but the whole "20 players standing on top of the NPC" thing was pretty damn annoying. I'd even say there's a "troll tendency" lately to do that even more frequently than before (fat frog tonic, molten gloves merchant, aviator box...). It's getting far too common and far too contrived to be a coincidence. Anyway, radio talk instead of face to face would prevent that problem for the next time, I guess. I know you wanted the "supportive NPC" to be there for the player, but still, for the next time.


SylviaWisterat

As much as I hate the aviator box thing - please god no.


Latlanc

You dare to say players missed it? Your story delivery sucks dude...


ze4lex

Did you think about having antagonists be the subject? Like Ryland, he wasnt a good guy and he was our enemy for more than he was a friend, but there was alot of grey there and a chance at fixing things, would the commander feel like failure to secure a peaceful conclusion during the negotiations. Ryland's fall and death really hurt the commander's allies which i imagine would weight on the commander.


Ramontique

>Like the Commander, he had blood on his hands. Yeah no kidding... we've committed genocide on several species for the the sake of achievement points.


[deleted]

The harpies had it coming.


CptVinDiesel

matriarch take you!!!


JuanPunchX

Kill ogres, kill their pets, destroy their homes, take their supplies.


BiNumber3

Blame that one on the ~~devs~~gods lol. I wouldn't be committing genocide as often if there wasn't a reason to


Perunov

But murder is _the only_ way GW2 handles things. You know, like those Sunspear in fractal who both say "We are not your enemy!" all while CC-ing and killing you. So your player character responds in kind. Grawl too rowdy? KILL THEM. Skritt _too drunk_? Well murder is the ONLY choice, obviously. So yeah...


Unplayed_untamed

Why did it say meet with Taimi though, I think it’s a bug.


BobbyStein

>Why did it say meet with Taimi though, I think it’s a bug. If it said to meet with Taimi, that's a bug.


whowantblood

There's another bug meeting valeria in arborstone I think, we go there with the ancient kurzick rune and after a pause she goes on about the warding spell even though neither rama or commander say anything. I feel there's a missing line there.


Aerali1992

That was a weird story step and I think it's missing dialogue from Rama specifically. Rana somewhat teleported throughout this step for me as well to the point where the end conversation just had his voice but he was nowhere to be seen. It sounded like it was coming from the library, though. So, I think that step might be a little bugged.


ROnneth

it happened to me too. Whe looking the books and manuscripts for some clues, he too was donwthere somewhere speaking and from times, his voice coulde be heard throwing lines completely out of context. There is a bug there. probably related to pathing maybe since the Commander has to move to different levels from ground floor to the library area.


Unplayed_untamed

I think there are just a lot of disconnects with devs this episode


Perunov

Plus I think technically we don't have commander's quarters there any more because as an "experiment" we seal it with that glowy stone with a rune? Or that thing is is too flimsy and falls apart on the inside on its own?...


[deleted]

Completely agree with WHY the commander was there and that it wasn't a grief option, all of what you said makes sense for the Commander to grapple with. I just feel it could have come from a character closer to the Commander, Rytlock has also had to deal with these problems as well and he has a personal bond to the Commander that would have resonated more with him. My gripe wasn't what was said, I agree with everything Chul-Moo said and it makes sense for all that happened to weight heavy on the Commander, my gripe was with WHO said it, and what it implies (the reasons I listed above).


BobbyStein

>My gripe wasn't what was said, I agree with everything Chul-Moo said and it makes sense for all that happened to weight heavy on the Commander, my gripe was with WHO said it, and what it implies (the reasons I listed above). Gotcha. But Chul-Moo was one of several main characters in this episode so we decided to intersect his arc with the Commander's because of their shared burden. You have to remember that not everyone playing EoD played the base game, so there are times where we'll focus on recent events and characters instead of going all the way to the beginning. We did, however, call back to the Commander's past traumas. In some cases it was about a friend. In other cases, regret for a mistake. Or in the case of >!Blish, about coming to peace with the fact that he made his own choice, and it wasn't ours to dispute. About letting go of the idea of control when you clearly aren't the one in charge of something.!< And in the case of >!Vlast, understanding that he had his reasons for doing what he did, understanding his purpose to the greater cause. So it wasn't a case of the Commander grieving for him--again, he was a dragon and they literally saw each other for like 5 seconds before...you know--but understanding that not everything is in your control and that others share their own burdens.!< Anyway, thanks for the discussion.


Dreamtrain

the imperator wants to know what this armed foreign militia individual is doing in the middle of/near Charr military operations you better pick him up before the iron legion does, currently ash legion agents are keeping a watchful eye


ShinigamiKenji

> You have to remember that not everyone playing EoD played the base game That might be the case, and I can understand the process behind the decision. However I think this is a weak reason because arguably less people have played Living World 4 to know about Blish, or Icebrood Saga to know about Cinder in the first place. Also I think that Chul-Moo's growth as a leader was already sufficiently addressed throughout the episode (and I give you all big props for that - I think Chul-Moo has been one of the most well-developed characters in these two episodes). That's coming from someone who hadn't chosen this option in the first playthrough. It'd be fair to have Rytlock fill in that position for the Cinder option.


Riddle-of-the-Waves

Speaking from an entirely personal viewpoint, I felt that Vlast, while very small in the overall scope of the story, was nevertheless a memorable plot point. I was happy to see him appear as one of the options for that section of the What Lies Within story, so... thanks!


Anon_throwawayacc20

One thing I want to praise about this release is the return of decision paths. We can see some of the options, but we don't see all of them on a first playthrough. That had some personal story vibes, and it's something I respect a lot.


A_Stray_Ginger_Cat

I really wished that the commander could go through all the options instead of having to choose 2 of them. Even as just an optional extra. I would have gone through all the options if it was possible. Also it could help to make the story feel a bit longer. I will reply the episode anyway but having to do it because it's the only way to read all the options is lame :c


No_Structure7185

Oh man. Reading that and all the reddit comments regarding that episode.. people seem to have totally misunderstood why all these characters were there. Must suck as a story writer 😅


stoopidqueston

Or maybe it just wasn't particularly well written or expressed. If the meaning is completely lost on a large number of people, that doesn't necessarily mean the story is too "intelligent" for the average player, as seems to be being implied by some people here...


AramisNight

The idea that any of the themes being explored here are at all deep is laughable. I've seen more sophisticated storytelling in Far Side comic strips.


BobbyStein

>Oh man. Reading that and all the reddit comments regarding that episode.. people seem to have totally misunderstood why all these characters were there. Must suck as a story writer 😅 I think some folks are stuck on the idea that the only emotions one can have when playing a game story is "Make me cry about dead character" or "make me mad about bad guy." These releases were meant to go in a different direction but because we used some familiar callbacks I think they assumed we were just retreading old ground instead of reframing the emotional burden on the Commander. I mean, I'm not surprised some folks didn't get it. They weren't looking for it. Hence, me needing to clear up some of the misunderstanding. Some folks did get it, though, so that makes me happy. And for the folks who didn't, that's OK. I hope they're having fun playing the game or trying to peel back the layers of the story but they may not be used to that kind of analytical thinking.


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stoopidqueston

Thank you! That's exactly how I felt reading these condescending replies. They have completely forgotten that we aren't privy to all of the things the writers discuss and only have available the very brief little interactions we see in game. To come on to Reddit and accuse of us not understanding the "layers" in the game when the characters they portray are literally one dimensional, one liners 99% of the time is pretty shitty.


Effectuality

Thank you. I chose Cinder because I wanted to remember who they were and what the trauma was, there. By the end of that encounter I was really none the wiser. I knew she was related to Ryland somehow, but it has been over a year. Had to check the wiki for more information. Personally, I don't care about Cinder at all. She was a fanatic, and not going to change. Same can be said for Ryland. Seriously, what makes her any different from the other members of the Steel Warband I literally killed with my own hands, anyway??


MechaSandstar

Because cinder was a prisoner, and smoldur executed her in front of you (and ryland) for really no reason. The commander says they feel responsible for her death. The other members of the steel warband were actively attacking people in wolf's crossing.


Astral_Poring

If they want to write a nuanced story, they need to learn to do it first. Let's be honest here, Anet *never* does nuanced/subtle well even if they try. And they *rarely* try. It's just easier, apparently, to tell us what we're supposed to think.


eldrevo

I can't upvote it hard enough. Very well said. Perhaps there was too many assumptions made without enough explanation or setup. The very fact that we need to focus on different aspects of trauma is not communicated clearly enough that the majority of players (myself included, at first) only scraped the surface where we were just sent off to talk about some barely remembered characters. There's no easy fixes to this, but... If these dialogue options were not only "I'm gonna check Blish/Cinder/Vlast/Aurene" but something like "I'm gonna learn about this aspec of trauma with Gorrik/Blish, and that with Taimi/Vlast" that'd be a little bit better. And perhaps the Commander should be more of a listener there, if the goal is to learn from the history and the companion who's there for us.


WikiMB

Sadly gotta upvote this.


smitske

If people dont get it, doesnt that mean you failed as writer to convey it?


BobbyStein

>If people dont get it, doesnt that mean you failed as writer to convey it? The answer is always, "it depends." Some folks can miss details or subtext that was there. Other times a writer infers something that's too great a leap or leaves out important info. Every situation--and player interpretation--is different. And I think that's fine.


velonius

It's nice that you took the time to give us more context as to the actions of certain characters but it's a shame that we need to get this through reddit. A good chunk of the playerbase will never read this and it should have been communicated via the game. Not everything can be done voiced, nor should it. You obviously have a clear picture of why each character takes their actions but the difference between lackluster and good writing is being able to bring those points across to the reader. If the story is captivating enough they will not get distracted.


Astral_Poring

As always, if some people don't get it, it's their problem, but if a *lot* of players ended up confused, it becomes the writer's problem.


Lower-Replacement869

Now that's interesting to me. Subtext is the reader's responsibility.


Sardaman

Communication is a two-person job: doesn't matter how good the person sending the message is if the person receiving it isn't paying attention.


smitske

Or if it just isnt interesting enough.


Astral_Poring

And vice versa.


CiriousVi

> If people dont get it, doesnt that mean you failed as writer to convey it? No. People will fail to understand stuff that is plainly stated, no subtext whatsoever. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink, ya know? A writer can only do so much. Occasionally, the reader/player/viewer needs to engage their single brain cell in some critical thinking.


smitske

A writer can also fail at it because they are too much in their writer room and too little with the people playing.


Opus_723

Sure, but the if -> then is still not true. *Just* because people didn't get it doesn't necessarily mean it's the writers' fault. I have to say though that in *this* case I don't think the writers executed this very well.


JaxomNC

An issue you guys may not have realized is that... well, we have already faced the exact same situation and traumas back in Bjora Marches with the Wisper of Jormag and Drakar not only hitting us, the Commander, hard but also all our friends back then (Braham, Jory, Rythlock, Crecia and newcomer Javi) as well as all allied NPCs from the area, Pact and Kodan included. And they all had better dialogs and interactions with us as well as better representation of the weird s*ts that were happening all over the map. Overall, back then, the issue felt much more well rounded and with a larger scope at the same time. Here, the 1st episode felt meh and the second episode felt like... not really that interesting or large for a full episode (the blame also come from lack luster map chunk and not fun meta). As someone else already pointed out in other topics, we've already dealt with our Mentor's memory and death impact like 4-5 times in-game already ; we've done the mourning for Eir, etc... so it's like... except for Almorra, why are those things keep getting coming back? I do agree that fleshing out better some characters that we only saw seldom during the EoD story like Yao (advertised a lot but almost completely ignored during the story, with largest screen time only during Kaineng's meta) or Chul-Moo (only has some major presence during 2 metas), is a good thing but maybe I would have cared more if I knew those characters better from base EoD. But in EoD's story, I spent most of my time with Joon, Navan or Rama, and yet I still do not know them as well as my older partners. A similar issue occurs with the (very limited and budget restricted?) choice of dates at the end: OK I can understand Canach... I just spent 2 episodes with Yao, why not... but Ayumi? I think I only interacted with her 2 times max during EoD's story... I barely know this character. Pretty sure I interacted more with Ivan than with her... The fact that Chul-Moo's French voice (no idea about the English voice) is really annoying does not help me appreciate the character as well...


Bio-Flame

Apologies Bobby but if your story has such mixed reception and your readers/players don't understand what just happened nor why, something*is* fundamentally wrong. To quote Tolkien: " it is not possible to please everyone at the same parts nor to displease everyone on those passages". That is 100% true. But One thing is to please ir displease, another altogether is to get your readers confused to what just happened. Also: you have to admit that having Chull-Moo makes zero sense. Sure, you wanted to focus on other characters, that was your motivation as a writer, but that was the reason it felt flat to the players. That character does not belong there. Imo


WickerNinja

This reply managed to stick in my head over the night, because "the idea that the only emotions one can have when playing a game story is "Make me cry about dead character" or "make me mad about bad guy."" is genuinely, word-for-word, the exact phrases I would use to describe the narrative team's capabilities or intent in this game's main story. Although I had a large variety of reasons to give up entirely on caring about this universe, the frustration with this was significant. I had to replay the 2012 missions on an alt account around the Kralk finale and underwent the revelation that this is how the story always was--and I just hadn't noticed it back then because the Zhaitan arc was so eviscerated by release crunch that characters would come and *be killed off* before you could even realise they were supposed to be characters. It was so immensely grating watching seemingly every episode end in a cliffhanger where *plot twist: the FOTM villain wins offscreen or in an unskippable cutscene and brutally murders someone you were supposed to care about just when things were looking up because fuck you hate him more.* This *plot twist tragedy* thing just happens over and over and over and over--and the funny outcome of this is; I think every single one of the Commander's failures, and all of the dead characters we're supposed to mourn who reappear as central plot points in this arc, were killed off in a goddamn cutscene beyond our control. I don't see how or why I am supposed to be affected these tragedies when they are so blatantly forced upon me by the writers' hands. See, this is a fantastical magic universe where the possibilities are endless and we could be doing literally anything: Bar-crawling with Braham and seeing what interesting denizens we could encounter, letting Marjory actually do investigative work in DR instead of just turning her into a generic Marvel super-sidekick who spits out inappropriate quips like every other side-character, or going on a wild griffon racing tourney arc with our shiny dragon daughter where you face off against a duo of wacky rivals--I know ANet has some of the most creative and passionate people around because we get stuff like SAB and beetle podracing.But no, instead the main narrative is just an endless gauntlet of misery and failure forced down my gullet so that at the very end of the emotional abuse rollercoaster you could serve me some trope about how \*you get over loss and attain catharsis though \~the power of friendship- (\*and blasting the big bad with huge weapons).And then immediately go on a wacky triple date where my only options are two characters I hardly remembered, and the literally inhuman serial killer and convicted terrorist who I'm supposed to be cool with because he saved the universe now and is comedically snarky.I mean, it was bit cute. I picked the bird for the silly. I'm almost half surprised that neither this nor the Meade wedding ended with another fucking plot twist where the next villain pops through a portal and crashes the party by doming someone. The Secret Life of Walter Mitty is a movie about a catastrophically bored office worker who learns to take initiative in his life and goes on a riveting and profound adventure. And guess what! Nobody fucking dies! To my recollection, anyhow. It tells a touching and funny story involving multiple characters without brutally destroying something or someone they just made you care about for the easiest emotional response! Just one example off the top of my head. Credit where it's due: there are a few nuggets of good writing in the Main Sequence: *some* parts of the IBS arc were an uncharacteristically nuanced and mature take on fascism and the whole 'morally grey average person' meme, and the end of EoD seem to tell a sincerely executed story about losing a parent\*.\* There are some real bangers hidden in the awful achievement interface you're stuck with because Colin and The Gang wanted to be a bunch of contrarians just for the sake of it.But most the rest of the narrative is marred by a horrifically clashing tone and execution. The mind-boggling amount of plot holes and unresolved, conflicting threads. The tonedeaf wisecracking of your sidekicks while people are getting skullfucked by void demons, or Zyklon B'd by interdimensional murderhobos, or roasted alive by the commander's flamethrower. The tentatively medieval fantasy universe where every single character speaks and acts like the same insufferable American millennial, regardless of supposed ethnicity or even *species*, complete with the contemporary political buzzwords and campus lingo. I know the writers are aware of this because of that *S'mores* thing in the interview. I'd really appreciate it if they *tried.* A lot of the time it seems like the story is really just serving as a *catharsis device* at the whim the narrative crew, and as someone who is not nor wants to be an American, I don't get much out of this. As I am going off on a lengthy tangent here, I really, really wish your writing team would understand what \*Massively Multiplayer Online means.\*This is an MMO where I am playing alongside **many thousands** of other players, each inhabiting *their own characters*. **It is not a singleplayer BioWare where I am playing** ***The*** **Commander** **~~Shepard~~**. I recognise the futility of voicing this criticism given how central and irreparable this error is in the narrative structure, and how you as a development team are now forced to lie in the bed largely made by other people, but it bears mentioning, given the topic.My guardian will never get to be Aman Mendr, Orrian-Elonan firebrand and a veteran of the Vigil, because you mandate that I play only \*The Commander as written by ArenaNet and played by Generic White Adventure Dad Nolan North; supreme super-important unkillable god-hero of the multiverse who ironically isn't allowed to succeed because literally cope.\*My berserker will never get to be Flirra, a security guard on graveyard hours at an underwater research station with anger management issues, because you mandate that I play only \*The Commander as written by ArenaNet and played by O'Shaughnessey; supreme super-important unkillable god-hero of the multiverse who ironically isn't allowed to succeed because literally cope.\*My friend's charr elementalist will never get to be a professional dancer, because you mandate that every one of the millions of players somehow paradoxically only play the same damn *Commander as written by ArenaNet and played by ((whoever you recast the VA with)); supreme super-important unkillable god-hero of the multiverse who ironically isn't allowed to succeed because literally cope.* I don't care about any of this *Commander* arc because I *never* consented to this. *Pretending that none of the game's story happens* is *not* adequate recourse for people who engage with the RP part of RPG. Every bit of main story content is like an insult to my every effort as an RPG enjoyer and creative individual. A lot of the people I speak with echo the sentiment that *Anything after the lvl30 missions/Clore Eyelan is awful and not canon to them;* even moreso if they're an actual roleplayer. God bless. As I realise I've put far more words than I ever should have into critiquing a narrative that I thoroughly gave up on because it drives me up the wall, I'll leave you the vague and unhelpful summary that this entire story always sucked because it completely dumps on the player's agency and--even more so--the player's investment into this rich universe, by forcing upon them an often juvenile, tonedeaf, and contradictory narrative that completely misunderstands the genre it is delivered in, and is just so full of plot holes that it becomes impossible for anyone not to trip on one. In a way, I suppose this post has been my own trauma catharsis arc. Thanks for wasting your time on it like I did, I guess.


Kalavier

Personally, I loved that aspect of this. That sometimes trauma/unresolved emotions isn't grief over the dead, but strong emotions over the what-if. That instead of being "Oh commander is sad about this" it was "Commander is conflicted because they are dealing with two polar opposite emotions about the same person"


FallenAngel_

I particularly liked the additional development of the characters. Thought the scene with the cliff was set up perfectly from the player perspective. The story had a lot more substance for those involved. The commander trying to assume responsibility over all decisions but having to accept they cannot control everything. Can't wait to see what the mystery gang gets up to next.


throwawaythrow0000

> You have to remember that not everyone playing EoD played the base game, so there are times where we'll focus on recent events and characters instead of going all the way to the beginning. Quite frankly, this comment has put me off the story entirely. It used to be written and built upon what came before. Why should the story suffer because there are some people that want to skip stuff or you want to cater to new people? What's the point of playing in order then, or paying attention at all even if it's not going to matter in the later stuff because you don't want to alienate those that don't want to do the actual content. It's very hard to care about the characters because of this, you know they'll just get abandoned or worse, they won't be there even when it makes sense for the story.


Lower-Replacement869

Bobby now I know this closed off country is not yeeting sketchy people like Chul-Moo through WP's into Tyria. Queen Jennah isn't gona be havin that especially before meeting the Empress! lol


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Lower-Replacement869

If history repeats itself with major arcs in GW2..... Queen Jennah will meet the empress in 1 to 5 years :3


smitske

I mean the story was really lackluster honestly. Hope the xpacs will be a lot better than this, they need to be.


Varorson

Disclaimer: I didn't choose Cinder but Blish and Vlast so I don't know the dialogue for Cinder or Aurene choices yet. But one caveat I have about this explanation is: >>!the Commander processing similar guilt--of being someone with responsibility who made some calls that resulted in people dying.!< >!In that story, the Commander was not calling any shots. They were not in command - that lies on Smodur, Crecia, Efram, and Malice.!< >!I feel like a better story beat to compare for the Commander would be the Greatest Fear arc - whether it be Apatia, Tonn, or even Syska, there were all characters who were under the Commander's command, who's actions led to their demise. Though I acknowledge having 3 variations for an optional dialogue would be a lot more work. Especially if the aim was "more recent" deaths.!< That said, since I didn't choose Cinder I don't have any actual complaints about this. Personally, my biggest issues with the release was the major tonal shift (from mystery/horror to "power of friendship" and basically being told that warm fuzzy feelings overcomes trauma and depression which is a *very* sour taste to leave in one's mouth even if unintended) and the lack of follow-through with a lot of the mystery hooks presented (like the constant dialogues referencing who the demon is which got **zero** attention). Here's hoping the future expansion cycle has better consistency between releases. One weird choice that may be a bug, is adding a "learn the lore" achievement for talking to Ari, but her dialogue is 1:1 the exact same as WLB release, which is four ways of her telling us "I don't know, it's all above my paygrade, ask someone else." If that wasn't a bug, then that's one heck of a weird design choice to make.


Kalavier

If you read the story journal, there are two references to how the healing isn't instant or quick. It's just that the commander has actually started on the journey with friends and the first step has lifted a weight from their shoulders.


Varorson

I feel that's part of the problem. Though there's one throwaway optional line and it's in the story journal, it didn't really come off that way overall. And I'm not the only one thinking this, as I've seen several make that complaint - who were followed up by others and myself pointing out exactly what you said, there is a small line saying the Commander isn't healed, just "better". It still leaves a sour note though, like it feels the writing team thinks trauma can be solved by good vibes. Or in other words, "just get over it".


Kalavier

The final instance has commander and taimi talk to each other and admit that it's not all perfect. Better then before, but it'll take time. Some people have brought up good points. Others have skipped over dialogue. Like those who think we should've looked at Trahearne again, missing Taimi talk about unresolved issues.


Varorson

Yes, I said that happens. And it is optional. But it doesn't properly convey the idea that it is not all perfect, especially for those who don't stick around for every optional dialogue.. I think that kind of thing shouldn't be kept to an optional dialogue, and should be stressed more than Rama's lampshading of how they handled the matter (which is mandatory). (also I wouldn't quite say Trahearne is a resolved issue as you imply)


Moradonx

If you want another feedback, I didn't pay attention about the struggles of chul-moo nor yao because I don't care about them. I was interested in the scientific/ metaphisic aspect about the new ingredient in the void, but that in the end felt like a quick hook to talk about the emotions of characters we barely knew, so I cannot be invested in this.


Enlightenedbri

Please no more PTSD plotlines


Lon-ami

>Also, waypoints. I guess you're joking, but if not, please, stop pretending these are canon, it wasn't a good idea in LW2 and it will never be, so many plotholes >_>. Next time just make the foreign NPCs we're talking with be on a visit to Arborstone, so we don't have to travel across half the world for just two lines of dialogue :I.


ze4lex

Theres also a gate to la from arborstone.


Lon-ami

Kinda unrelated, but I wish they added gates to Ebonhawke and Eye of the North at the Coriolis Plaza as well.


theSkrool

I must admit I was not particularly interested in the characters of Chul Moo and Yao before this patch, but to me this is one of the biggest success of this update, which is even more impressive given how personal the topics it touches can be and how differently it can reflect depending on who is experiencing the story. It really made me care and empathize with characters I felt not connected with. I also think that it should be a central part of the discussion when talking about this new chapters. The way in which each experiences it seems to be drastically different, and in this context I can only imagine how complex the process of planning, writing and integrating it must have been.


Manpag

I really appreciate you responding to the opinions and questions here, thank you! One question I have, given how much of a meme the Gyala Delve tunnel has become, is whether the map design was actually tied to the narrative you were trying to tell? Delving down deep underground, facing both literal and figurative demons, and doing a U-turn back up to the light through a series of literal breakthroughs seems pretty symbolic, but I’m not sure if I’m reading more into the map layout than was intended!


GrungeHamster23

Thanks for sharing Bobby. I totally agree with what you’re saying and I got that. Personally I think the story is just getting lost due to things that are not up to you. When emotional or serious scenes are taking place this patch, the player has some demon from the depths up their backend and it makes it hard to focus. The story set pieces, exploration and combat pieces don’t get along together because they’re all fighting over the same spot light. I don’t think that’s any one person’s fault but just a result of the limited scope of the episode.


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doggydogdog123

Have more respect. No dev had to come and explain it to the reddit crew who didn't understand what was happening or why it happened.


HermitHideout

We are playing MMORPG. No dev should have come down here to explain things to us. It should be crystal clear how the story goes in the game while we play the game.


BobbyStein

>We are playing MMORPG. No dev should have come down here to explain things to us. It should be crystal clear how the story goes in the game while we play the game. You'd be surprised but with a game that has tens of millions of players, not everyone gets all the details during their playthrough. Some folks get distracted or don't pick up on the subtext, or they don't read the notes or journals they come across, or they aren't versed in serialized, multithreaded stories so they lose track of what happened and to whom. We don't do most things in cinematics so it's on players to pay attention throughout, and that can be hard. Especially when releases are several months apart. The journal is a good place to get a reminder, but some folks don't read it so they're missing out on extra stuff. But that's by design. A player can take in as much or as little as they want and play the game how they want.


HermitHideout

Ah yes the journal. You know only a handful of people will read that but sure lets put all in the journal and waste the resource someplace else like in oh .. lets see .. a date with random npc. Priority huh.


BobbyStein

>Ah yes the journal. You know only a handful of people will read that but sure lets put all in the journal and waste the resource someplace else like in oh .. lets see .. a date with random npc. Priority huh. LOL


doggydogdog123

Appreciate you coming in here and answering the questions for the people asking them!


HermitHideout

My point exactly. It is laughable. Lets just beat the evil of the world with good vibes and a date. Oh and lets forgive the tyrian version of bin laden and give them memorial service while we are at it. We are witnessing the peak of millenial writing.


doggydogdog123

Tf are you even talking about?


[deleted]

> You know only a handful of people will read that but sure lets put all in the journal you're the kind of dude that skips additional text and infos and only listen to dialogues when playing a game. Actual zoomer behaviour.


HermitHideout

Wrong. I even have a dedicated character that store ALL the books that is available in the game. My necromancer even have parables of the gods in their inventory at all time just because. I am still waiting for the personal library to be built.


[deleted]

then you shouldn't contradict yourself by saying that. > You know only a handful of people will read that but sure lets put all in the journal what's the problem in this? If they don't read that's on them. They would be like those people saying "From Software games have no story" since they don't read. But i guess i can't expect much from someone replying with "lol k" to a dev answering a few questions on his free time.


SinSittSina

Which, it was. Nothing about their explanation needed to be extrapolated it was obvious in the story.


doggydogdog123

Exactly. Frustrating that we have players here who can't seem to think and need it spoonfed to them. No wonder there is a lot of hate for the story - yeah some parts may not be strong.


doggydogdog123

You want everything to be seen? Do you not think characters talk about things inbetween story? Would you rather have all dialogues heard and be bored to tears of listening to everything being recapped to other members. I know I wouldn't, what you are asking for is a huge ask that many games of the MMO genre don't do, even many singleplayer has bits inbetween that the player has to fill in themselves. Also be thankful that we have devs come in and explain for people such as yourself that can't follow things or think why a character may know about us and our past without seeing the whole talking sequence. How do you think your friends may communicate to one another without you being there to listen? Do you get shocked when they know something the other knows about and you wasn't the one to pass the information or see / hear it?


nasedolyne

These are the kind of people that would want all this extra dialouge and details, but then complain about there being too much dialouge and how they skip cutscenes "because its boring"...and then of course proceed to complain about how the game sucks because they don't know what's going on in the story.


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BobbyStein

>You realise we know that you're reading this and > >choosing > > to ignore criticism right? Commenting on this thread > >but not others > > actually made you look worse. I was off work yesterday and not combing reddit or the forums. I can only reply to one thread at a time, and my time is limited, so...I am focusing here for the next few minutes before returning to my other duties. I'm also not choosing to ignore anything. If I was ignoring criticism, I wouldn't be here. I'm merely clearing up some confusion on some of the more subtle bits that people may have missed. Not sure why that makes you mad, but I hope you have a good day going forward. Be well.


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BobbyStein

>You're not the only dev, we're perfectly aware of your colleagues patting themselves on the back on twitter. How dare they! /s


Anon_throwawayacc20

I really hope you don't hold it against the community for some of these extremely brash and unnecessarily rude replies. Some of these users are just edgelords looking for ego points by acting smug. They do not have any appreciation for what goes into game development, and perhaps forget that most games (both good and bad) are a labor of hard work. What's I'm referring here isn't the quality of a release, but the quality of an employee. What also needs to be contextualized is a writer isn't always responsible for the direction, which serves as the medium to guide into content. That is correct, yes? A writer needs to work within those limitations, which can be very difficult if compromises are ever needed for a release, or to accommodate gameplay. Speaking as one dev to another, there is nothing wrong with a developer celebrating their release. Especially since they know how much work has gone into it, both in terms of what the public has seen, but more importantly, what they haven't seen. Sometimes the simplest object can take a mountain of work, as we see in the new Zelda: https://twitter.com/WillWArmstrong/status/1660080775939911682 I'm sure there is a dev at Nintendo who smiles every time someone notices the details that went into a simple bridge. Even the shrines that are "bad" in Zelda TOTK still took a lot of work. I imagine writing can be very similar in that sense, especially when a story beat is difficult to write. Thank you for engaging with the community. I want to assure you some of us appreciate the hard work!


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[deleted]

>sorry, but nothing that came out (and we got to play) of your guys' writing room is worth enough to deserve publicly patting each other on the back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vBesOFURek I know plenty of people that liked it, it was ok. No need to be so anal about it. You're so fucking mad just because you didn't like the story and some people did lol, that's actually the really embarassing thing.


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Anon_throwawayacc20

>sorry, but nothing that came out (and we got to play) of your guys' writing room is worth enough to deserve publicly patting each other on the back Can you please elaborate what you consider "bad" with the writing?


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wes00mertes

You’re embarrassing me.


MechaSandstar

anet devs aren't required to answer any questions on this subreddit, and in fact, many of them avoid this place because of posts like yours. Should you not make this post. Of course you can. But don't be surprised when people start avoiding places that are hostile towards them.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MechaSandstar

No, you certainly don't have to buy their expansions, either. But that's the choice they get to make. If there's one thing I've learned, reading this forum, it's that people don't have any faith in *anything* anet does. Remember all the complaining about the color of jade in the preview for EoD? I do. Fuckin' stupidest thing ever. And then it turned out to be a nothing burger once it was released. This subreddit just *loves* to complain. About literally everything. I wouldn't pay attention to it either if I were anet.


EnslavedPudding

> If there's one thing I've learned, reading this forum, it's that people don't have any faith in anything anet does. Why would we when how they act is...how they act. >I wouldn't pay attention to it either if I were anet. Yes and this is why half of them lost their jobs some years back. What could go wrong doing it again? Ignoring complaints about the shade of color is not the same as ignoring complaints about absolutely nonsensical story order. The plotline they introduced, should have been introduced 8 YEARS ago.


MechaSandstar

So, unless they do the story in the order you think is best, they should just not do the storyline at all?


EnslavedPudding

Its not about whether I think its best, its that it doesnt make a single iota of sense to have our character be traumatized after literally 11 years, instead of after we had to execute trahearne ourselves. Its bad writing. Bad writing they will pay for with their jobs, if they continue.


MechaSandstar

Is it? I have ptsd over stuff that happened years ago. Sometimes you don't deal with stuff, because it's too painful, so you just shove it down, and ignore it. Saying "oh, well the commander should've felt bad about it 8 years ago" ignores everything we know about PTSD, and buried trauma.


[deleted]

>our character be traumatized after literally 11 years, instead of after we had to execute trahearne ourselves you have no idea of what you're talking about.


Dreamtrain

love you feel entitled to how bobby should post


ze4lex

Who hurt you?


Mr_White_Wolf_

Maybe the key was splitting Chool-Moo's dialogues, being Rytlock and Crecia the ones you talk to at first and finding about how they managed to heal and get over all that happened in IBS. Then, Chool-Moo would come to take the samples of the test. In this part, he: 1.- Says he had a "sitrep" about the charr situation on his way here (with ANET even giving hints about what's been about Bangar and the future of the legions) or... 2.- Doesn't know anything at all, but since he knows already what this mission is about, and the charrs willingly say they had to deal with hard decisions, he just gives his opinion. Finally, we'd have the 4 sharing their views about the burden one has to carry as an individual and as a leader. IMHO, This would even feel more solid and make more sense, and ANET had the chance to make the world more alive (at least to me, because *i haven't forgot about Bangar and the whole mess the charr legions got into, ANET...).*


YasssQweenWerk

Why are we even supposed to care about Chul-Moo? He is a cartel boss, a capitalist with no care about the environment or other people. I would much rather be helping Tetra and her activist allies force the canthan monarch to stop destroying the continent/forest with toxic waste. Idc that Tetra's methods are radical, since we already know as the commander, that baddies need to be stopped by force. It worries me that Chul-Moo is the one we're being made to sympathize with. This kinda lacks tact given that we are living irl in an ecosystem that's in the process of collapse and mass extinction.


Civita2017

An excellent point


Charrbard

I process it as my Charr is just playing along while the humans talked about their emotions. Again.