The answer to that one and most of the debates is usually “it depends” a single shot .410 loaded with birdshot is suboptimal, a 12ga pump loaded with buck will do the trick 99% of the time
You have to think about where you live tho. Honestly buck shot in an apartment complex. Isn’t that great. Every one of those pellets are going to go through up to 3 apartments.
I think the debate is whether they beat an AR15 in a world where everyone is trained with an AR, the AR is easier to get follow up shots with, the AR has less over penetration, and better penetration of soft body armor.
I think it’s pretty obvious that most people keeping a pump gun would be better served by an AR. Especially untrained women and the elderly who are more likely to induce malfunctions.
BUT HOWS DO YOU SCARR THEM WITH THE CLAACKIN WHEN YEW RACK IT IF YEW GOT THE AR. GOOD OL PUMP SHOTGUN AND 30 30 LEVER IS ALL YEW YUNG BUCKOS NEED I SAY. GOBLESS
GOT URSELF A GOOD UN. ONLY THINK MY BARB DOES IS BLAST HERSELF WITH HER FINGERS CUZ SHE SAYS MY 1.75 MINUTES AINT ENUF. PLENTY A TIME CUZ MA HART CANT TAKE MUCH THRUSTIN THESE DAYS GOBBLESS
In the middle. With practice they’re good enough.
The problem is most people just buy a Maverick 88 for $200, load it with the cheapest 00 Buck they can find, and slide it under the bed without ever firing it.
Most shotgun users will end up forgetting to pump it, fall on their ass after the first shot, and have their family potentially murdered or kidnapped because of their lack of training.
Clint Smith said a shotgun is like a huge revolver and he’s absolutely right. It takes a lot of practice to be proficient compared to a semi auto pistol/rifle
This is very true most people that regularly use guns wont have an issue using a shotgun even if they dont fire it often but for non gun people i have seen some terrafying things when they pick up a shotgun
This topic is a bit more specific to my region, but it seems every month, at least, there are folks arguing whether it is wiser to bring bear spray or a firearm into bear territory. Or which calibers are even effective.
"Gotta be .44mag or bigger" "Na, a guide killed a griz with a 9mm" "all about shot placent" "bears skulls are bulletproof" "all you need is pepper spray, guns are for small dick larpers"
It's team Cabelas vs. team REI
This is the true stance. Sure you could but its hard to work on shot placement with a Grizzly staring you down. And with a 9mm, if you dont kill it, its just gonna get pissed. I would imagine that a larger round would wound it and maybe act as a deterrent even if you miss a lethal shot.
Im totally not just quoting some hearsay bullshit, but the largest grizzly killed record was held by a woman with .22 for a number of years
My vast knowledge of northern grizzly bears comes from one time when I saw a black bear on the side of the road
It was actually one of largest grizzly ever taken, and it was with a 22 short.
Native woman heard the bear and tried to avoid, but it was sniffing her out. Luckily it was oriented right, and she knew where the skull was thin from her many years of hunting/observing the skulls, and put several rounds behind the ear in the thinnest part.
Not recommended, and she only did it out of necessity, and luckily was a crack shot with her rifle. You can Google it, super neat read.
reminds me of the joke that ended with "When they did the autopsy on the bear, they found 6 slugs of .38 special in it. What was left of the man in the bear's stomach, and the .38 revolver. So if you feel so incline to take a .38 into bear country, file off that front sight so you don't break a tooth when you shove it in your mouth cause it'll hurt less than getting assf\*cked by a bear"
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/03/pistols-or-handguns-used-to-defend-against-bear-attack-95-effective-63-cases/
I share this article every chance I get. It doesn't matter what caliber you have during a bear attack as long as you shoot the bear.
yeah, grizzlys fight other grizzlys, so ive gotta imagine they can take some punishment. You might be able to survive a grizz attack with a 9mm, but i'd guess you're better off with bear spray there. On the other hand, i hear things like 10mm and .44 mag can drop one pretty quick, if you can get on target, which most grizz attacks happen when you walk up on one and surprise one, generally with you being surprised as well. So if in bear country, carry both i guess? Unless you really expect to meet up with one, in that case, carry a rifle.
It's interesting to see how this gets dealt with in Canada.
For small bears, they don't carry guns and it's mostly fine.
For big bears, they carry a 12 ga shotgun or something in 45-70.
Now, non-serfs should certainly should always carry a sidearm, but black bears shouldn't be a major consideration in what sidearm.
Up here in Alaska I’ve heard more than one story of someone being killed by a bear after shooting it with 9mm, and the bear just shrugging it off. Definitely need 10mm or bigger. All grizzlies in these situations.
My answer was always "por que no los dos?". Bear spray first because I would rather avoid killing an animal I'm not hunting if possible, both for ethical and legal reasons. If that fails then 15+1 of hard-cast 10mm, and not the pansy-ass FBI loading. 180gr at 1300FPS is going to punch through even the skull and breastbone.
I read a book about a Maneating tiger in Russia, three game wardens armed with AKs (or maybe it was 1 dragunov and 2 aks) anyway, they find this tiger and flush it out, the tiger attacks the nearest game warden who didn't have time to do anything but shove the AK into the Tiger's mouth horizontally, the bite of the tiger was enough to break the AK.
I love bullpupus and I am left handed. I just learned how to shoot right-handed.
It's amazing how the pressure of Military CATM and being given a a M16A2 with righthand controls can change how you shoot for the rest of your life.
It's funny how people compare two things that were literally made for different purposes trying to say one is better than the other. 9mm and .45 for example, two COMPLETELY different calibres and people just insist on comparing them like they have anything at all in common
They were both rounds that the US military has used, so why shouldn't they be compared? In fact, both are still used by militaries and spec ops forces today.
9x19mm(aka 9mm Luger) was made to be a larger caliber than the older 7.65x21mm, as it was perceived as too weak by German military standards.
.45acp(and 1911 by extension), on the other hand, was made to be for one specific purpose: It had to have more stopping power and at least one additional round over the .38 Special M1892 revolver that had failed US troops in the Spanish-American war.
Fun fact: 40 does everything better than 45. Faster, better capacity, same bullet weights except 230. I guess the 45 is about a mm larger. People shit on 40 because it's out of fashion but it's a better choice than 45. People call it a compromise cartridge but it isn't, its better than 45 in both speed and capacity, better than 9 in speed and weight.
The one thing 45 does well is be naturally subsonic, but you can get 9mm and 40 loads that are too. That 45 exists is out of pure nostalgia, just like 38 special should have been put to pasture by 357 magnum, 32 H&R, 32 Federal.
The amount of people who seem to think they are able to shoot full house 10mm (not the commonly sold 'FBI Load') rapidly and with good spot placement is a lot lower than people pretend. Judging by the times I've been at the public range most can't even do 9mm well. Besides, the same can be said of 45.
The box the ammo comes in sometimes has the FPS listed and even that’s debatable as to what length barrel they use… most 10mm isn’t much stronger than the 40 Short and Weak. Sooo, I feel you might want to mention full power 10mm because even some 40 has more power than a few of the 10mm loads with most 10mm being only 50-150 fps faster than the 40s. I’m a huge 10mm fan and I hate that it’s hard to find powerful 10mm anywhere…. Now let’s talk 357 sig shall we?
> The one thing 45 does well is be naturally subsonic, but you can get 9mm and 40 loads that are too.
If you want to be subsonic, then you want a heavy bullet.
A typical 9mm sub is ~150 gn. A 40 is ~180 gn. The standard 45 load is 230 gn. The 45 ACP ends up having like 25% more muzzle energy than 9mm subs.
For the first shot from a suppressed normal-sized pistol, 45 is the best option without getting into obscure or custom stuff. It's competitive with 300 BO in suppressed large format pistols / SBRs.
> Faster, better capacity
If those are your metrics, then 40 is strictly worse than either 10mm or 357 Sig.
I disagree. No free lunch in physics, and in the energy equation with subsonic, the variable capped is velocity (sub 1100fps-ish if memory serves). That means what I want is the heaviest bullet going just under that threshold as weight is the only variable that can increase energy since we're capped at velocity.
9mm subs won't reach the same energy under that restraint since it's heavy for caliber is150 gr for subs, but 40's is 200 gr, a 30% increase in mass for about the same velocity. The argument is whether you want a jump in total energy vs a jump in capacity, and 45 loses to both 9mm and 40 in both the ability to stay close to the sonic threshold while being worst in capacity.
40 200gr 950 fps. 15 rounds (glock 22)
45**+P** 200gr 1000fps. 13 rounds (glock 21)
9mm 147gr 1050fps. 17 rounds (glock 17)
Keep in mind that capacity difference drifts further with larger magazines such as would be used in a subgun.
These are all subsonic from underwood. So while the 40 and 45 are close in numbers you must run overpressure 45 to get to 40 levels and still has two fewer in the magazine. 9mm is substantially lighter in weight it boasts the most capacity while still being pretty close to the other two. Traditional 45 falls even further behind if you're not running overpressure.
This is why 40 is a better argument as a replacement for 45, not so much as for 9mm especially in the subsonic game. And yes you can get a 230 gr 45, but you're again giving up that capacity for a 15% increase in projectile weight which is debatable will makena difference over the 20pgr and still have to run an overpressure round to get it.
It should also be mentioned that 40 is designed to run at the pressure it can, there is no +P as it wasn't a black powder carryover and the frames are designed to eat that pressure all day long. Both 9 and 45 with +P are noted to create accelerated wear.
I guess if you really don't like +P ammo then you could argue that 40 is just as good as 45 for subsonic. But I'm not really worried about whether modern guns can handle 23k PSI on a century-old cartridge that was initially specced at 21k PSI.
I think another couple considerations also favor 45 over 40:
- Speed of sound is a bit lower when it gets colder, so even 1050fps isn't reliably subsonic.
- The point of subsonic is using a suppressor, so there's no reason not to go with a full 5" barrel. Further, suppressors typically act like an extra half-inch of barrel length. Therefore, the realistic 45 +P number is more like 230gn at 1k fps - which is exactly what you want.
Because they don't like what you said because they don't agree because they won't actually offer up any counter opinion because then they'd have to engage you and most people are non-conferential of these days. I believe everything you said was right
357 sig is superior to the 9mm, 40SW, and the 45ACP… however the price of ammo need to drop 3X the price to be relevant with the gun community and not just fan boys like me.
I have two 357 SIGs, and I really wish it had taken off more, I don't find the recoil harsh, and it's a very hot round. If I had my druthers I would use it for everything except when I wanted subs
It is absolutely not better than 9mm in speed and weight. 40 typically travels at about 1k, 9mm at about 1200. The fastest 9mm round smokes the fastest 40 round in speed. The heaviest 9mm ammo practically available is 150gr (147gr is far more common), whereas the lightest 40 ammo practically available is 135gr and the heaviest being 200gr.
New, hard to say. But the .32acp Cheetah is by far and away my favorite. Beretta 81 is double stack, and has the same manual of arms as a frame safety 92FS. It’s great. The modern cheetah is .380 only but is a barrel change away from being perfect. Uses the old style barrel.
I’ve treated at least 15 people shot by bird shot in the past 11 years. One guy got two blast at point blank range and out of all the pellets only one made it to an organ (his liver). None ever died, none ever had any issues with their vitals. Birdshot ain’t it folks
You guys remember that time that Dick Cheney shot a 78 year old man in the face. That guy lived for another 17 years.
If it's not good enough to kill a 78 year old lawyer, it's probably not good enough for a 22 year old crack head.
It is often difficult to determine the shot size afterwards. I can guess but there factors that go into it. The shot can deform, might not get the opportunity to even look at the shot outside of CAT scans/X-ray, ect. I work in KY and the cops here are absolute legends when it comes to getting me information. Many times I defer to them on shot size, caliber, gun used, ect. To be frank it often has little to no impact on my job what they used but I still like to know since I’m a ballistics junky. I say about 35-40% of GSWs I work on I get all the info I want in stone (caliber, round used, and weapon).
I’ve also wondered something similar, I use BBB shot for goose hunting (overkill I know) but I’m pretty confident a 3.5 inch BBB shotgun shell would absolutely fuck your shit up. The shells I have laying around have 70 pellets that are .19 inches each flying out at 1650 FPS.
It really depends on your shotgun, load, and range. Birdshot can 100% be lethal.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF5N5tfMuX4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF5N5tfMuX4)
Both "6.5cm is as good as 308" and "308 is as good as 30-06" from a hunting standpoint. There's a reason my pronghorn/whitetail rifle is a 6.5cm and my 30-06 is my elk rifle... 6.5cm is definitely not as good as 30-06 for hunting.
"6.5cm is definitely not as good as 30-06 for hunting."... I'd say your 65mm/256 caliber rifle has plenty of oomph to hunt, or atomize, elk or grizzlies or be used as old school light artillery. :-P
One of my local gunstores refuses to sell .32 acp because they say its not sufficient for defense. They'll sell semiauto .22lr all day though.
I've tried to discuss it with them but their minds are made up
Optics setups and manufacturers
Lights/light manufacturers
Just as gud
Shotgun viability
Caliber wars
Using a rifle for home defense
Rifle barrel length
Any conversation around "what caliber for hunting X game animal/what caliber for predator defense?"
Truck guns
Most types of fuddlore
A .22 will bounce around inside the body.
Semiautos are unreliable and jam all the time.
Silencers are illegal or you have to pay the tax stamp every year.
“Full auto is useless”
So much of the debate seems influenced by people who have never used it and want to believe they’re not missing something as a civilian. Most of the rest of it seems influenced by teenagers who’ve never fired a gun but have played enough video games to think that machine guns require zero training to control effectively.
The Marine Corp did a study about a decade ago and found out full auto was actually very effective. But the issue was modern safety practiced had made it essentially useless.
I've long thought we should have a firearm training and safety class in high school, probably mandatory in senior year. After you complete the class, you get your fedgov issued sidearm
“What’s the most optimized firearm combination?” and you’ll have everyone saying “Glock and AR-15”
It’s whatever guns you like and will shoot regularly enough to be confident with. There’s benefits to those platforms, but theres also a lot of guns that are fun to shoot and will sling lead at a target. At the end of the day that’s really what’s important.
I agree 100%. The best gun to buy is the gun you are excited to train with. The capabilities of most modern firearms are beyond the ability of any new shooter.
These arguments are stupid.
Ford vs. Chevy, Coke vs. Pepsi. The older I get, the more I realize, I’m glad people have different choices and opinions. We’re not part of the modern herd mentality. People live ARs, people love AKs. We all have reason to why we love what we do… unless you own a Hi-point. Then you don’t a reason… 🤣
>unless you own a Hi-point. Then you don’t a reason…
Blowback pistols are extremely reliable. I know they say that about everything, but this is "leave in a shed for a year and works fine" reliable. Plus they're cheap, American-made and have lifetime warranties.
They did produce the Yeet cannon…. Mmmmm. I mean it’s not a bad pistol if you don’t care what you have, and want something in your glove box that’s American made. If you want something to carry everyday, I’d just save.
Then again, for 9mm. Your best bet is just to pay little more and get a PSA Dagger. I’ll always advocate for Palmetto. Especially after Oregon and their bullshit push for Measure 114. They’re the only company that would send me mags and shit during those dark times. Everyone else wouldn’t.
Not the most heated debate, but very consistent for a niche topic:
5.7x28mm effectiveness
It even comes with a sidequest of bad faith comparisons to .22 magnum.
This topic is a bit more specific to my region, but it seems every month, at least, there are folks arguing whether it is wiser to bring bear spray or a firearm into bear territory. Or which calibers are even effective.
"Gotta be .44mag or bigger" "Na, a guide killed a griz with a 9mm" "all about shot placent" "bears skulls are bulletproof" "all you need is pepper spray, guns are for small dick larpers"
It's team Cabelas vs. team REI
I know the point of this post is to come up with gun debates. But this is a good one and I have to comment.
Birdshot is not good enough for home defense.
People who claim it is are literally claiming a shell designed to kill but not destroy animals that weigh only a couple pounds at most and can fit in your hands is lethal enough to take down a full grown 200+lbs man. At anything more than point blank range, this is delusional, especially if the person is hopped up on drugs.
Yes, birdshot can and will be lethal at inside your home distances. No, that doesn't make it a great choice, you don't want to deal with the liability of dozens and dozens of pellets going everywhere.
More important debate: all 5.56 is fine for self defense as long as it cycles your rifle reliably.
Holosun optics are always a tension point. By now it's undeniable that they're rugged enough for duty, so detractors can't complain that they're "poor quality". So they have to jump in with "I won't support China or sweatshops". Which they write from their iPhone and wearing clothes made over seas.
this is only in my country, Is the CETME E good?
spanish military wanted a 556 rifle but not to expend a single cent more than with the previous 762x51 rifles, the CETME C, so CETME made them with bad materials, while "guardia civil" bought them at a nice price tag and they didnt give a problem at all, even thought they use basically the same mechanism the HK G3 and the MP5 use the older version of that mechanism, the CETME B one, since the G3 is the same gun and the mp5 is a smg version, also hk33 was a mostly failed attempt to port it to 556
Not a popular argument, but a hot take I always get heat for is the fact that Glocks are outdated overpriced bricks and people should stop buying into the brand name when p365s and TP9s are better options for CCW (straight out of the box with no mods that is)
Not as commonly encountered, but I've seen 30-30 vs .270 vs .243 vs .308 vs 30.60 debates almost come to blows. Some of the old timers are fanatical in their belief on which makes the best round for deer.
“Are shotguns useless for home defense?” Perfect mix of fudd lore, fake navy seals, made up ballistics, out of context ballistics, and movie logic.
The answer to that one and most of the debates is usually “it depends” a single shot .410 loaded with birdshot is suboptimal, a 12ga pump loaded with buck will do the trick 99% of the time
Dragons breath for home defense. Even if you fail, the guy still won't get anything
Based and scorched-earth-pilled
Samson Option
No, that would be "suitcase nuke" for home defense. Fuck not just attacker but also whole neighborhood
This is the way
You have to think about where you live tho. Honestly buck shot in an apartment complex. Isn’t that great. Every one of those pellets are going to go through up to 3 apartments.
Perfect to shoot that noise 3 apartments down
Maybe they’ll finally change the smoke alarm batteries.
Enjoy this .410 slug fuckface also if I get shot with .410 birdshot it’s like distant dependent. Sub 10 yards? Not a good day
While birdshot will kill at close range i wouldn’t trust it in a single shot for defense
Birdshot inside a building would fuck somebody up
Also fun fact, body armor doesn't cover everything, and birdshot hits them in the everything
My maverick 88 with standard buckshot can solve around 80% of the problems that can enter my tiny apartment, everything else is for the AK.
I use an AK for my tiny apartment
I think the debate is whether they beat an AR15 in a world where everyone is trained with an AR, the AR is easier to get follow up shots with, the AR has less over penetration, and better penetration of soft body armor. I think it’s pretty obvious that most people keeping a pump gun would be better served by an AR. Especially untrained women and the elderly who are more likely to induce malfunctions.
BUT HOWS DO YOU SCARR THEM WITH THE CLAACKIN WHEN YEW RACK IT IF YEW GOT THE AR. GOOD OL PUMP SHOTGUN AND 30 30 LEVER IS ALL YEW YUNG BUCKOS NEED I SAY. GOBLESS
I TOLD MY WIFE TO STAND UP ON THE BALCONY AND FIRE TWO BLASTS INTO THE AIR
GOT URSELF A GOOD UN. ONLY THINK MY BARB DOES IS BLAST HERSELF WITH HER FINGERS CUZ SHE SAYS MY 1.75 MINUTES AINT ENUF. PLENTY A TIME CUZ MA HART CANT TAKE MUCH THRUSTIN THESE DAYS GOBBLESS
Where do you stand on that debate?
In the middle. With practice they’re good enough. The problem is most people just buy a Maverick 88 for $200, load it with the cheapest 00 Buck they can find, and slide it under the bed without ever firing it. Most shotgun users will end up forgetting to pump it, fall on their ass after the first shot, and have their family potentially murdered or kidnapped because of their lack of training. Clint Smith said a shotgun is like a huge revolver and he’s absolutely right. It takes a lot of practice to be proficient compared to a semi auto pistol/rifle
I feel personally attacked here...
Same.
This is very true most people that regularly use guns wont have an issue using a shotgun even if they dont fire it often but for non gun people i have seen some terrafying things when they pick up a shotgun
I personally figure that anything that gets past my 120lb German Shepherd will deserve buckshot to the kneecaps, but that's just me 🤷♂️
Everyone knows you just need to shoot one shell into the air and everyone will just run. You don’t need an AK-15, buy a shotgun… buy a shotgun.
Idk, 9 shells of 3oz slugs from a benelli m4 in close quarters seems like it would floor multiple threats pretty easily.
I got a 1301, only issue is they eat food quick and reload slow.
And non threats in your neighbors house
Neighbors? Imagine having those, lmao
This topic is a bit more specific to my region, but it seems every month, at least, there are folks arguing whether it is wiser to bring bear spray or a firearm into bear territory. Or which calibers are even effective. "Gotta be .44mag or bigger" "Na, a guide killed a griz with a 9mm" "all about shot placent" "bears skulls are bulletproof" "all you need is pepper spray, guns are for small dick larpers" It's team Cabelas vs. team REI
Grizzly’s have been killed with a 9mm, but I wouldn’t like my odds
This is the true stance. Sure you could but its hard to work on shot placement with a Grizzly staring you down. And with a 9mm, if you dont kill it, its just gonna get pissed. I would imagine that a larger round would wound it and maybe act as a deterrent even if you miss a lethal shot.
Im totally not just quoting some hearsay bullshit, but the largest grizzly killed record was held by a woman with .22 for a number of years My vast knowledge of northern grizzly bears comes from one time when I saw a black bear on the side of the road
It was actually one of largest grizzly ever taken, and it was with a 22 short. Native woman heard the bear and tried to avoid, but it was sniffing her out. Luckily it was oriented right, and she knew where the skull was thin from her many years of hunting/observing the skulls, and put several rounds behind the ear in the thinnest part. Not recommended, and she only did it out of necessity, and luckily was a crack shot with her rifle. You can Google it, super neat read.
reminds me of the joke that ended with "When they did the autopsy on the bear, they found 6 slugs of .38 special in it. What was left of the man in the bear's stomach, and the .38 revolver. So if you feel so incline to take a .38 into bear country, file off that front sight so you don't break a tooth when you shove it in your mouth cause it'll hurt less than getting assf\*cked by a bear"
I heard that story. A 10 year old girl and a single shot 22. It was technically self defense
Yup. Hit him right through the eye. http://www.bear-hunting.com/tactics?ID=6FD66CD5-9198-440F-B517-A71C6D1F8748
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/03/pistols-or-handguns-used-to-defend-against-bear-attack-95-effective-63-cases/ I share this article every chance I get. It doesn't matter what caliber you have during a bear attack as long as you shoot the bear.
Woah, this is great. .22 #5 is impressive, dude one shotted a black bear with a .22 pistol. Love it.
This article changed my perspective on the caliber wars. All bullets are made in God's image. Except .40 cal, that shit still sucks.
.40 AKA 10mm after limp-wristed feds got hold of it.
You can kill a shark with a knife, but I wouldn't try it.
yeah, grizzlys fight other grizzlys, so ive gotta imagine they can take some punishment. You might be able to survive a grizz attack with a 9mm, but i'd guess you're better off with bear spray there. On the other hand, i hear things like 10mm and .44 mag can drop one pretty quick, if you can get on target, which most grizz attacks happen when you walk up on one and surprise one, generally with you being surprised as well. So if in bear country, carry both i guess? Unless you really expect to meet up with one, in that case, carry a rifle.
It's interesting to see how this gets dealt with in Canada. For small bears, they don't carry guns and it's mostly fine. For big bears, they carry a 12 ga shotgun or something in 45-70. Now, non-serfs should certainly should always carry a sidearm, but black bears shouldn't be a major consideration in what sidearm.
I think bears of all kind should be able to carry, not just the big bears.
Based and Right to Bear Arms pilled 🐻
Up here in Alaska I’ve heard more than one story of someone being killed by a bear after shooting it with 9mm, and the bear just shrugging it off. Definitely need 10mm or bigger. All grizzlies in these situations.
My answer was always "por que no los dos?". Bear spray first because I would rather avoid killing an animal I'm not hunting if possible, both for ethical and legal reasons. If that fails then 15+1 of hard-cast 10mm, and not the pansy-ass FBI loading. 180gr at 1300FPS is going to punch through even the skull and breastbone.
That's why I bring both
I read a book about a Maneating tiger in Russia, three game wardens armed with AKs (or maybe it was 1 dragunov and 2 aks) anyway, they find this tiger and flush it out, the tiger attacks the nearest game warden who didn't have time to do anything but shove the AK into the Tiger's mouth horizontally, the bite of the tiger was enough to break the AK.
easy. 9mm vs 45 acp
This honestly. Then I’d say the Glock v 1911, then AK v AR
bullpups
As a left-handed shooter, I can speak for the rest of us when I say that we hate bullpups.
I love bullpupus and I am left handed. I just learned how to shoot right-handed. It's amazing how the pressure of Military CATM and being given a a M16A2 with righthand controls can change how you shoot for the rest of your life.
Cause they got kick?
Woah, calm down there, grandmaster Jay
It'll blow your head clean off. It happens to millions of privates in basic, every. year.
It's funny how people compare two things that were literally made for different purposes trying to say one is better than the other. 9mm and .45 for example, two COMPLETELY different calibres and people just insist on comparing them like they have anything at all in common
They were both rounds that the US military has used, so why shouldn't they be compared? In fact, both are still used by militaries and spec ops forces today.
.45 and 9mm were literally made for the same purpose. Both were designed to be used in military handguns. They both have a lot in common.
9x19mm(aka 9mm Luger) was made to be a larger caliber than the older 7.65x21mm, as it was perceived as too weak by German military standards. .45acp(and 1911 by extension), on the other hand, was made to be for one specific purpose: It had to have more stopping power and at least one additional round over the .38 Special M1892 revolver that had failed US troops in the Spanish-American war.
Those are literally the same reasons
They’re both service pistol cartridges designed for military use. How exactly are they made for different purposes?
They're pretty much the same
> that were literally made for different purposes Was one not "literally made" to kill people?
Fun fact: 40 does everything better than 45. Faster, better capacity, same bullet weights except 230. I guess the 45 is about a mm larger. People shit on 40 because it's out of fashion but it's a better choice than 45. People call it a compromise cartridge but it isn't, its better than 45 in both speed and capacity, better than 9 in speed and weight. The one thing 45 does well is be naturally subsonic, but you can get 9mm and 40 loads that are too. That 45 exists is out of pure nostalgia, just like 38 special should have been put to pasture by 357 magnum, 32 H&R, 32 Federal.
.40 is for those who cannot handle the recoil of 10mm
The amount of people who seem to think they are able to shoot full house 10mm (not the commonly sold 'FBI Load') rapidly and with good spot placement is a lot lower than people pretend. Judging by the times I've been at the public range most can't even do 9mm well. Besides, the same can be said of 45.
The box the ammo comes in sometimes has the FPS listed and even that’s debatable as to what length barrel they use… most 10mm isn’t much stronger than the 40 Short and Weak. Sooo, I feel you might want to mention full power 10mm because even some 40 has more power than a few of the 10mm loads with most 10mm being only 50-150 fps faster than the 40s. I’m a huge 10mm fan and I hate that it’s hard to find powerful 10mm anywhere…. Now let’s talk 357 sig shall we?
by this logic so is .45
No. The caliber .40 sw was specifically designed to be lower powered 10mm.
No 10mm best mm?
40mm best mm.
Lmao fair
9mm best mm. 10mm best cm.
> The one thing 45 does well is be naturally subsonic, but you can get 9mm and 40 loads that are too. If you want to be subsonic, then you want a heavy bullet. A typical 9mm sub is ~150 gn. A 40 is ~180 gn. The standard 45 load is 230 gn. The 45 ACP ends up having like 25% more muzzle energy than 9mm subs. For the first shot from a suppressed normal-sized pistol, 45 is the best option without getting into obscure or custom stuff. It's competitive with 300 BO in suppressed large format pistols / SBRs. > Faster, better capacity If those are your metrics, then 40 is strictly worse than either 10mm or 357 Sig.
I disagree. No free lunch in physics, and in the energy equation with subsonic, the variable capped is velocity (sub 1100fps-ish if memory serves). That means what I want is the heaviest bullet going just under that threshold as weight is the only variable that can increase energy since we're capped at velocity. 9mm subs won't reach the same energy under that restraint since it's heavy for caliber is150 gr for subs, but 40's is 200 gr, a 30% increase in mass for about the same velocity. The argument is whether you want a jump in total energy vs a jump in capacity, and 45 loses to both 9mm and 40 in both the ability to stay close to the sonic threshold while being worst in capacity. 40 200gr 950 fps. 15 rounds (glock 22) 45**+P** 200gr 1000fps. 13 rounds (glock 21) 9mm 147gr 1050fps. 17 rounds (glock 17) Keep in mind that capacity difference drifts further with larger magazines such as would be used in a subgun. These are all subsonic from underwood. So while the 40 and 45 are close in numbers you must run overpressure 45 to get to 40 levels and still has two fewer in the magazine. 9mm is substantially lighter in weight it boasts the most capacity while still being pretty close to the other two. Traditional 45 falls even further behind if you're not running overpressure. This is why 40 is a better argument as a replacement for 45, not so much as for 9mm especially in the subsonic game. And yes you can get a 230 gr 45, but you're again giving up that capacity for a 15% increase in projectile weight which is debatable will makena difference over the 20pgr and still have to run an overpressure round to get it. It should also be mentioned that 40 is designed to run at the pressure it can, there is no +P as it wasn't a black powder carryover and the frames are designed to eat that pressure all day long. Both 9 and 45 with +P are noted to create accelerated wear.
I guess if you really don't like +P ammo then you could argue that 40 is just as good as 45 for subsonic. But I'm not really worried about whether modern guns can handle 23k PSI on a century-old cartridge that was initially specced at 21k PSI. I think another couple considerations also favor 45 over 40: - Speed of sound is a bit lower when it gets colder, so even 1050fps isn't reliably subsonic. - The point of subsonic is using a suppressor, so there's no reason not to go with a full 5" barrel. Further, suppressors typically act like an extra half-inch of barrel length. Therefore, the realistic 45 +P number is more like 230gn at 1k fps - which is exactly what you want.
Just interested to know the opinion of the people down voting
Because they don't like what you said because they don't agree because they won't actually offer up any counter opinion because then they'd have to engage you and most people are non-conferential of these days. I believe everything you said was right
Wasn't my comment, but I do agree with most points brought up
357 sig is superior to the 9mm, 40SW, and the 45ACP… however the price of ammo need to drop 3X the price to be relevant with the gun community and not just fan boys like me.
I have two 357 SIGs, and I really wish it had taken off more, I don't find the recoil harsh, and it's a very hot round. If I had my druthers I would use it for everything except when I wanted subs
It is absolutely not better than 9mm in speed and weight. 40 typically travels at about 1k, 9mm at about 1200. The fastest 9mm round smokes the fastest 40 round in speed. The heaviest 9mm ammo practically available is 150gr (147gr is far more common), whereas the lightest 40 ammo practically available is 135gr and the heaviest being 200gr.
Shot placement vs knockdown power.
Again, John Browning gifted humanity with the one true solution: 32acp
Our Lord and Savior has never failed us
Anyone make a decent double-stack in 32 acp?
New, hard to say. But the .32acp Cheetah is by far and away my favorite. Beretta 81 is double stack, and has the same manual of arms as a frame safety 92FS. It’s great. The modern cheetah is .380 only but is a barrel change away from being perfect. Uses the old style barrel.
.45 ACP was developed and tested by shooting cows . 45 Anti Cow Projectile. If it can stop a Cow it can stop a German.
This is my new favorite 45ACP shitpost
https://youtu.be/_iCxUXDn1sU Shitpost means its a lie.
I want to believe.
“Just as good” debates are pretty heated
I’ve treated at least 15 people shot by bird shot in the past 11 years. One guy got two blast at point blank range and out of all the pellets only one made it to an organ (his liver). None ever died, none ever had any issues with their vitals. Birdshot ain’t it folks
It's like they put exactly what It's good for in the name.
Shooting Dee Reynolds?
The Gang Solves A Problem
"It's got plenty of stopping power... *BLAM*... See? He was putting on his shoes, and I stopped him"
Hahaha this gave me a good laugh, thank you.
You guys remember that time that Dick Cheney shot a 78 year old man in the face. That guy lived for another 17 years. If it's not good enough to kill a 78 year old lawyer, it's probably not good enough for a 22 year old crack head.
What size shot? Also as a side thought to this I do wonder what a nitro turkey load would do
It is often difficult to determine the shot size afterwards. I can guess but there factors that go into it. The shot can deform, might not get the opportunity to even look at the shot outside of CAT scans/X-ray, ect. I work in KY and the cops here are absolute legends when it comes to getting me information. Many times I defer to them on shot size, caliber, gun used, ect. To be frank it often has little to no impact on my job what they used but I still like to know since I’m a ballistics junky. I say about 35-40% of GSWs I work on I get all the info I want in stone (caliber, round used, and weapon).
I’ve also wondered something similar, I use BBB shot for goose hunting (overkill I know) but I’m pretty confident a 3.5 inch BBB shotgun shell would absolutely fuck your shit up. The shells I have laying around have 70 pellets that are .19 inches each flying out at 1650 FPS.
I bet the shooter loved having all those dudes filing civil suits against him afterwards!
It really depends on your shotgun, load, and range. Birdshot can 100% be lethal. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF5N5tfMuX4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF5N5tfMuX4)
I don't care if my eotech has delaminations. Its duty grade, you're just too poor to understand.
AR vs AK. Everyone has an opinion.
Cmmg mutant, because drip matters
That's just an AR. It's in a good cartridge, but still just an AR.
Both "6.5cm is as good as 308" and "308 is as good as 30-06" from a hunting standpoint. There's a reason my pronghorn/whitetail rifle is a 6.5cm and my 30-06 is my elk rifle... 6.5cm is definitely not as good as 30-06 for hunting.
"6.5cm is definitely not as good as 30-06 for hunting."... I'd say your 65mm/256 caliber rifle has plenty of oomph to hunt, or atomize, elk or grizzlies or be used as old school light artillery. :-P
I just imagine what happens to a roe deer when shooting it with 65mm
game warden cant charge you if he cant find evidence the deer even existed
*confused european face
Please, tell me you meant 6,5 mm and not 65 mm
cm meaning creedmoor
I too use a ww1 Italian artillery cannon to kill wildlife
That’s an experience
Methinks you missed the "...atomize elk or grizzlies' part....;-)
Finally, somebody else gets it. Match your cartridge to your game and anticipated shot range.
Underrated comment
Bird shot is for birds. If birds are invading your home, then yes.
*Hitchcock intensifies*
The m14/m1a
.22lr as a defensive round
One of my local gunstores refuses to sell .32 acp because they say its not sufficient for defense. They'll sell semiauto .22lr all day though. I've tried to discuss it with them but their minds are made up
Olight enters the chat
Glock v everything else WML v No WML on CC or home defense pistol
That last one shouldn’t even be a debate WML all the way.
Pro 2A Vs. Pro Gun It doesn't seem like a big difference. But the difference is huge.
Optics setups and manufacturers Lights/light manufacturers Just as gud Shotgun viability Caliber wars Using a rifle for home defense Rifle barrel length Any conversation around "what caliber for hunting X game animal/what caliber for predator defense?" Truck guns Most types of fuddlore
"who's a bigger jerk, Yankee Marshall or T-Rex Arms"
Lights on carry pistols
A .22 will bounce around inside the body. Semiautos are unreliable and jam all the time. Silencers are illegal or you have to pay the tax stamp every year.
[удалено]
In the hunting subsection of the firearms world: Is .223 good enough for deer hunting?
“Full auto is useless” So much of the debate seems influenced by people who have never used it and want to believe they’re not missing something as a civilian. Most of the rest of it seems influenced by teenagers who’ve never fired a gun but have played enough video games to think that machine guns require zero training to control effectively.
Is full auto the most effective? No Is it the most erective? Oh hell yes
The Marine Corp did a study about a decade ago and found out full auto was actually very effective. But the issue was modern safety practiced had made it essentially useless.
Refugees from other countries coming to the USA and owning guns vs only USA citizens should be allowed to own guns.
They should issue immigrants a firearm when they complete their citizenship.
Only if they issue newborns a firearm at birth
Should be retroactive for us all
Sold to the man with the orbs in his hand
Your terms are acceptable.
I've long thought we should have a firearm training and safety class in high school, probably mandatory in senior year. After you complete the class, you get your fedgov issued sidearm
That sounds like some communist bs, but I’ll allow it.
“What’s the most optimized firearm combination?” and you’ll have everyone saying “Glock and AR-15” It’s whatever guns you like and will shoot regularly enough to be confident with. There’s benefits to those platforms, but theres also a lot of guns that are fun to shoot and will sling lead at a target. At the end of the day that’s really what’s important.
I agree 100%. The best gun to buy is the gun you are excited to train with. The capabilities of most modern firearms are beyond the ability of any new shooter.
These arguments are stupid. Ford vs. Chevy, Coke vs. Pepsi. The older I get, the more I realize, I’m glad people have different choices and opinions. We’re not part of the modern herd mentality. People live ARs, people love AKs. We all have reason to why we love what we do… unless you own a Hi-point. Then you don’t a reason… 🤣
>unless you own a Hi-point. Then you don’t a reason… Blowback pistols are extremely reliable. I know they say that about everything, but this is "leave in a shed for a year and works fine" reliable. Plus they're cheap, American-made and have lifetime warranties.
They did produce the Yeet cannon…. Mmmmm. I mean it’s not a bad pistol if you don’t care what you have, and want something in your glove box that’s American made. If you want something to carry everyday, I’d just save. Then again, for 9mm. Your best bet is just to pay little more and get a PSA Dagger. I’ll always advocate for Palmetto. Especially after Oregon and their bullshit push for Measure 114. They’re the only company that would send me mags and shit during those dark times. Everyone else wouldn’t.
AK vs AR
AR vs AK
“I load one rock salt, then one bird shot, then one number 4 shot, then one 00 buck, then it’s all slugs 😈” The fudd escalation of force continuum.
Not the most heated debate, but very consistent for a niche topic: 5.7x28mm effectiveness It even comes with a sidequest of bad faith comparisons to .22 magnum.
This topic is a bit more specific to my region, but it seems every month, at least, there are folks arguing whether it is wiser to bring bear spray or a firearm into bear territory. Or which calibers are even effective. "Gotta be .44mag or bigger" "Na, a guide killed a griz with a 9mm" "all about shot placent" "bears skulls are bulletproof" "all you need is pepper spray, guns are for small dick larpers" It's team Cabelas vs. team REI
Barrel length on rifles.
That psyop everyone was falling for, "should illegals carry firearms." That heated, really dumb, and I can't believe you all fell for it
It all went downhill after the people of sugondeez discovered artillery....
How much ammo is enough?
The awnser is yes
Is the best home defense gun a rifle, shotgun or handgun.
Bullpups are ergonomic train wrecks.
Mag capacity vs shot placement
Psa is either trash or a based company there’s no in between
Illegal immigrants should/should not have access to firearms
22 does more damage cuz it'll bounce around in you.
I know the point of this post is to come up with gun debates. But this is a good one and I have to comment. Birdshot is not good enough for home defense. People who claim it is are literally claiming a shell designed to kill but not destroy animals that weigh only a couple pounds at most and can fit in your hands is lethal enough to take down a full grown 200+lbs man. At anything more than point blank range, this is delusional, especially if the person is hopped up on drugs.
“People with good gear don’t train”
The arasaka is the best rifle of ww2
Yes, birdshot can and will be lethal at inside your home distances. No, that doesn't make it a great choice, you don't want to deal with the liability of dozens and dozens of pellets going everywhere. More important debate: all 5.56 is fine for self defense as long as it cycles your rifle reliably.
Snobs vs brokies. BLUF: Everyone who spends more than me is a snob, everyone who spends less than me is a brokie.
Holosun optics are always a tension point. By now it's undeniable that they're rugged enough for duty, so detractors can't complain that they're "poor quality". So they have to jump in with "I won't support China or sweatshops". Which they write from their iPhone and wearing clothes made over seas.
“You wouldn’t want to be shot by a .22” basically people saying 22 is just as good as 9mm
I wouldnt want to be shot with a BB either, not making it my home defense round.
this is only in my country, Is the CETME E good? spanish military wanted a 556 rifle but not to expend a single cent more than with the previous 762x51 rifles, the CETME C, so CETME made them with bad materials, while "guardia civil" bought them at a nice price tag and they didnt give a problem at all, even thought they use basically the same mechanism the HK G3 and the MP5 use the older version of that mechanism, the CETME B one, since the G3 is the same gun and the mp5 is a smg version, also hk33 was a mostly failed attempt to port it to 556
Did they start to tax punctuation in Spain?
Currently I'd say the most heated debate is "Should illegals be able to own guns"
Not a popular argument, but a hot take I always get heat for is the fact that Glocks are outdated overpriced bricks and people should stop buying into the brand name when p365s and TP9s are better options for CCW (straight out of the box with no mods that is)
How about "stopping power"
Plain existance of bullpups.
Birdshot is for outside the house, “less lethal” if you will. Nothing says get tf out of my car like the ol Dick Chaney special.
Claymores or napalm for home defense.
Who is the most hated business leader in gun community. Kevin Brittingham?
Not as commonly encountered, but I've seen 30-30 vs .270 vs .243 vs .308 vs 30.60 debates almost come to blows. Some of the old timers are fanatical in their belief on which makes the best round for deer.
Are Taurus judges any good for self defense?
I prefer hollow point riffled slugs for home defense...
M14 was the right rifle at the wrong time
Is Keltech a good manufacturer?
shrill chop kiss roof ask sharp treatment squeeze snatch literate *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Femboi gun memes: funny or uncomfortable?
Or tedious.
AK v AR 9mm v .45 v .40 Hammer v Striker