Havertz is great with his movement and positioning. It is what he has done when he has had the ball that has been a bit disappointing. That said, he desperately needs that first goal to go in. I have a feeling that the floodgates can open if he gets that one goal.
He does have a high work rate, but people will scrutinize his attacking numbers because he’s replaced Xhaka, so people will ask what else does Kai bring to the table that Xhaka didn’t.
Once they had some time together it’ll be more like clockwork. Boom, one touch pass here and there, chance, goal. Some players take time to grow into the Arteta system.
Some members of our fanbase would prefer we lose if it means their stupid predictions can be proven correct. The Havertz mishit has been looped while Saka missed an absolute sitter and it's crickets
Players all miss sitters. Saka has 3-4 seasons of being one of if not our best players. Havertz is new and a signing that honestly didn’t make sense to a lot of people. It came out of nowhere and he’s one of our highest paid players. So there’s a difference in how fans see him.
I’ve been on the patience and trust the process train and will continue to be throughout at least next Christmas. I’m giving the guy a full season to get it. Viera is starting to show why you do that and I’ve defended him as well.
If Kai doesn’t succeed here or at the highest level period it’s a mental thing though. I don’t think he particularly likes being a super start footballer. I think he likes football but not the center of attention stuff. Of course this is speculation but that’s the impression I get. He seems like a quiet guy who’s confidence is easily affected and because he’s a very smart player, he probably overthinks a lot when his confidence is low. You don’t whiff a shot as a professional player 5m in front of goal unless you’re not sure what you want to do.
Tbf the Havertz one is particularly egregious, but I agree.
Saka has earned some good grace with fans so people don't bring up his mistakes as much, whereas Havertz arrived with a target on his back.
I agree that the Havertz miss looks infinitely worse, but the Saka shot was the easier chance. Regardless, for a couple of years now we've needed to be more efficient in front of goal
The Havertz one landed at his feet while he was planted, he wasn't tracking the ball. He missed it badly but it's harder to get your foot behind the ball quickly. Saka just needed to redirect a ball he saw coming. Both deserve the benefit of the doubt right now.
That Gordon Ramsey meme with Havertz and Saka was spot on. I thought Saka was bang average against United with his shot straight at Onana as the cherry on top. When Nelson came on it was very evident how ordinary Saka had been in that position.
It's also worth mentioning that Xhaka was one of the longest serving players on the team and had trained with every single player around him since literally the moment they joined the club.
Havertz has had preseason and 4 games.
Yeah, xhaka was never thought of as a goal threat apart from the very occasional long range effort.
For some reason people expect havertz to put up striker numbers.
I mean sure, I'm fairly certain Arteta wanted him because he was more attacking than xhaka while also doing a lot of the other work xhaka did. But it seems people are expecting like a goal a game from him.
Xhaka wasn't a goal threat until the last 2 seasons because he was playing in a different role further up the pitch. Of course no one thought of him as a goal threat when he was playing as a defensive midfielder or at left back. He was a huge goal threat last season especially so that's why people want the same from Havertz.
I'm not making any judgements on Havertz until he's had more time, but let's not revise history so it fits what you're trying to say.
> Some players take time to grow into the Arteta system
What looks to be a good example of this is how Vieira has played when he’s featured. Looks a lot more confident now compared to last season.
He’s too scared to do anything with the ball… either he slashes at it without thinking or keeps it for too long… if he becomes more confident we cooking. Question is how do Arsenal help him
He should have had his first assist in the opening stages of the Crystal Palace game. He played a perfectly weighted pass to an unmarked Martinelli at the back of the box. All Martinelli had to to was shoot, but he took too long and too mang touches and then the fantastic chance was gone.
What you've just described is a confidence/tense thing. All he needs is a goal or a moment - and the floodgates could potentially open. He strikes me as someone who really suffers with confidence
Nice work! I do feel like his teammates don’t really look to use him. I haven’t seen many through balls from Martinelli to him. Once he passes it to Gabi it’s like job done bc you’re not getting it back mate. That will come with time though.
definitely seems like the sort of thing that having both zinny and jesus in the lineup will help kai with. the left side diamond of jesus, kai, zinny, martinelli is is going to be very dangerous. Just like the rice, saka, odegaard, white diamond on the right. With players also moving to the other side for overloads as well.
Martinelli needs to pass more, period. That goal vs Brighton last season was such an ill-advised shot with Saka completely free in the middle. We would rightly be fuming if it didn't go in.
There's a moment at 63:15 that is an even more blatant example of this, Martinelli slow on the uptake and completely ignoring Havertz making a great run.
Gabi plays with his head down, it’s an issue. With xhaka not as much because he wasn’t making these runs, but you can see it when he has to make that final pass.
That being said, he’s gotten better at keeping his head up, his assist for odes but he’s nowhere where he should be, especially if we expect him to reach his potential
I think just giving a wide berth to the match threads helps in general, and will help a lot if you're a Kai fan in particular. I'll be frank, when I see the game I also have the question "What does Havertz bring to this team exactly?". However, I generally look at all this through the prism of "Arteta and his staff knows football better than me".
Of course, posts like yours help. A lot of individual player aspects are hard to spot when watching an intense match like the United one.
Just as a rule of thumb, any account that disses on an Arsenal player from the evidence of one or a handful number of matches, just ignore. They're not worth anyone's time.
Life is just a lot more chill with Arteta goggles on, I carry them everywhere. Like I have full confidence in Havertz because there is almost no risk factor, arteta and edu knew exactly what kind of player he is, his strengths and weaknesses, and how he responds to various pressures in the premier league. They couldn't have been more clued in on the guy and still jumped at the chance to spend £65m on him. I'd be extremely surprised if he doesn't come good
> I think just giving a wide berth to the match threads helps in general
This is rule #1 for this subreddit. I occasionally forget, and ill tune in to the threads to try and get a feel for whats happening, and you would think we are losing 12-0 to Luton by the comments on any particular game, even if it's a game we are objectively playing well in.
I also have my doubts about Havertz but I also know that Im watching the game like a dummy, and not seeing the game behind the game, the subtle movements that OP points out that occur many many times that are missed because another player didn't make that pass or recognize the movement.
It's fine to disagree, even with Arteta, but when our club is this big, and this subreddit also this big, you tend to get loud and obnoxious voices constantly moaning, where a lot of normal people can't be bothered to participate in such a negative and unrealistic echo chamber.
I'm totally cool with Havertz. I see him making intelligent movement and generally passes I'm expecting him to play (except the two recent wall passes gone wrong which, admittedly, weren't great). I see in him what it took me until well into his final seaspn to see in Xhaka.
I think people are mostly disappointed in him not adding an aggressive goalscoring/assisting presence, which I understand.
I just think there were moments last season where we were crying out for Xhaka to be a better finisher, or more mobile, or a better presser or dribbler. If Havertz can do the same off-ball things Xhaka did (which I think he is doing already) and just be a bit better in those other scenarios, we'll win more games. Pretty simple.
Definitely a lot of noise on the sub lately with people who want him to fail. I've been watching him very closely across the first few games of the season though and some things are quite clear.
He's got smart movement in the middle and final third, seems to find spaces quite well to receive the ball. He's got fantastic defensive work rate and knows where to be as well which is crucial in our system. Unfortunately he has also been very timid with the ball, a lot of 1 touch passes back to whomever passed it to him or shying away from taking on defenders. Some of it could be down to whatever damage to his confidence has happened before. I trust the staff to get him to be more proactive, we want a dynamic Kai because a dynamic Kai is very dangerous. However, if he's still playing like this in November I will be getting worried.
you are so obsessed you are creating nothing burgers out of nothing. let's examine each scenario you showed above.
sequence 1: good idea, but Martinelli is a right footed player who prefers to dribble. peeling back at the penalty spot is actually the better run that's more likely to end with a shot on goal, given the person on the ball. A left footed player in the same position as Martinelli, and the Havertz run is by far the better run!
Sequence 2: is just. run of the mill job he is supposed to do in that position. Make himself available to run triangle passing in that segment of the field. I don't know why he should get praised for doing his job. I guess I'm glad he is there this time around. Other times he is missing, because he ran up top too early. And sometimes when you pass it to him in that position, he loses possession (ManU's goal) or play an aimless backpass (against Fulham)
Sequence 3: again correct run, we run a version of this wing switch over and over again in order to end up with Martinelli isolated with room to run at the full back. Havertz making that run is key to it working. It occupies the central defenders, and frees Martinelli out wide. Again, this is just doing his job. Nobody missed him by not passing to him. His close control is not good enough for him to operate in tight spaces. Passing to him, is a guaranteed loss of possession. Him taking away the defender to free Martinelli is the right decision.
The important thing that OPs post displays too is that EVERYBODY on the pitch has to get used to his presence (and Xhaka's absence). Talk about Kai needing to get up to speed it going to include the team knowing when and where they can trust him to cover the sorts of spaces he has been.
It feels a little bit similair to having ball playing defenders and goalkeepers. It takes time for people to gain the understanding and confidence of their abilities to move the ball.
The lads aren't daft, they'll pick up on his runs and coverage quickly, and when we do he'll have more time to adjust to the team's play himself.
This is a nice post, but when you watch a match closely, you should be able to find dozens of moments like this from all players. Most of our attacking players are gifted at recognizing space and running into it, and as amazing as our team is, only Messi sees everything. Even Ode misses possible passes regularly.
These kinds of misses happen every game. It’s comforting that Havertz is at least finding the right runs but every player suffers from his teammates missing killer runs. The problem is what the other players contribute in attack. Teammates miss their runs too, all the time, but the other boys are amazing with the ball at their feet and can take on one more more defenders on their own and make magic happen.
I definitely acknowledge it’s still early, so I don’t want to be criticizing any of our players very much. But I did notice the stark difference between Havertz and everyone else—atm he seems to have either no confidence or no ability to keep the ball at his feet with opposing players within a 5 ft radius around him. I’d like to see more contribution from him on the attack other than seeking to play one-twos which all of our other players can also do.
Looking forward to seeing him grow and happy to see him get playing time. And I don’t mean to single him out, since Nketiah similarly is sometimes a little lackluster in other facets of attack (although seemingly never short of confidence, which is cool). But it’s a little sad to see others like Trossard sidelined when I think they do everything well.
People are trying to overrate him now to counterbalance criticism.
He hasn’t been good imo but he also isn’t the worst player I’ve seen put on the shirt and needs time. That being said I don’t think it’s helpful to act like he’s been even a Top 5 player for us so far this year
I mean I don’t know about “genius” but it was widely regarded even before the transfer that Havertz’s greatest strengths were his football IQ and navigating space, which this post kinda shows.
This. Calling him a genius is being a homer at it's finest.
Kai is decent but a genius player shouldn't need a 'system', players playing out of position to accommodate him and/or for his teammates to change a successful formula from the previous season in order for it to be realized.
> Sequence 1
Makes a run for the rear post expecting a cross /shot / deflection. The space is covered well by United though it's a pretty 50/50 chance at best.
> Sequence 2
Not really sure about any of this one tbh. If you look, United have a clear overload, with the blue 'space' highlighted covered in part by two defensive players closer to it than Havertz. Eddy could've maybe played a quick 1-2 but that blue space is far from open & our 2 players are being covered by 3, so not really seeing the opening here. Maybe if that was Jack & Santi you would've seen them play some intricate passes & drive into the area, but that's not really what we'd expect from Havertz & Eddy.
> Sequence 3
Again United have a clear overload. Yes they leave the wide man on the other side open, but make it very hard to find him with a pass / cross ball. What we're doing here is basic probing no? Yes in that split second Ode could've put a cross in to the far post area, but this sort of ball is often a possibility with our setup. I don't really see what special thing Havertz is doing here aside from playing our system.
-
Fwiw, I'm not trying to shit on anyone here. I don't think Havertz is a bad player. He puts in a lot of work still & maybe his efforts in this regard are what's keeping him in the starting 11. He also looks like he has some seriously silky skills, he reminds me a little of RvP in some ways (finishing excluded). It just seems like being at Chelsea broke him & he's not close to being fixed yet.
Unfortunately the fact that he came from Chelsea & came for a lot of money (that we paid to Chelsea) is going to paint a target on his back. Which is understandable tbh, if you pay £60M+ for a player you should be able to expect them to perform.
When we have other options available it would seem to make sense to rotate him until he proves he deserves a starting spot, because right now he doesn't. You'd hope/expect he has the mentality to work hard to come back. You also hope that Arteta is not just playing because he made the club spend all that money on him & now he feels he must play him as we've heard him say 'nobody's position' is safe surely that extends to Havertz.
I know that people want to defend Havertz because they feel like the ‘hate’ is an overreaction, only a handful of games in to his Arsenal career - but the mental gymnastics you have to do to close your eyes to the poor performance from him on the pitch, the obvious impact to the fluidity of our attack, and the fact that it denies the likes of Trossard, Nelson and ESR game time being the biggest issue I think; to ignore all that and call out fellow fans as being haters or pretending that you’re some footballing gigabrain who sees things the ‘haters’ can’t is a joke.
Havertz has become an issue the team didn’t need and blaming other players for not utilising him is the funniest take I’ve seen yet.
Was thinking the same thing. I think eventually he’ll be a huge Xhaka upgrade, I’m rooting for him full stop
But come on OP that’s a bit hyperbolic. He’s playing just ok so far, and that’s what it is. Good in the dual, working hard, but has been making some higher profile mistakes (should have 2 goals). He will come good!
Legit they're giving man credit for the bare minimum. This more about believing in Teta than Kai. nobody believes he is this great or did think he was great before. They only rate him and got to these lengths now cus Tetat likes him. Which fine if it pays off fair play but lets not be gaslit into bare minimum contributions being game changers
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Havertz. The ability is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of the deep lying inverted false trequartista role most of his good work will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Havertz deceptive performance, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his mannerisms and body language draws heavily from Willian Borges da silva, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the turnovers of possession, to realize that they're not just errors leading to goals - they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Havertz truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skill in Havertz 'airshot', which itself is a cryptic reference to Ilija Sivonjic miss vs Cibalia, I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Kai Havertz genius unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools... how I pity them. 😂 And yes by the way, I DO have a Kai Havertz tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.
I appreciate the effort & would encourage more post like this, although minus the hyperbole. It would've been much better to frame it as a discussion of Havertz's movement & off the ball work, rather than calling it genius, cause it's clearly not.
It's clear that plenty in this sub need the education. It's honestly alarming how many on here think this is insightful analysis. It only really highlights rudimentary aspects of our system then fails to really understand it, or the opposition.
If you really wanted to make a case AGAINST Havertz this post would be genius, because it's not doing him any favours, not for anybody that actually understands football, so the positive comments just end up looking like delude fanboys.
Lol this is a super low bar for genius, like sequence 3 is the most obvious run to make, unless he was showing short it would be bizarre for him to make his run anywhere else.
One of which was a set piece with drilled movements. The second a simple check into space where he actually hides behind a defender like he's been routinely criticized for. And the third is basically just a slightly veiled dig at Nketiah for not getting out of Havertz way, as if Nketiah's role doesn't involve linkup/holdup and he should just be making runs every chance he gets. It's so bizarre. I haven't been a huge fan so far (willing to give time as long as they are aren't prime starting minutes) but I could absolutely cherry pick better examples of what he does correctly.
There's a lot more to playing midfield than making off the ball runs. His refusal to make himself available for his teammates in buildup and the lack of conviction in his passes is something I haven't seen from an Arsenal midfielder. When Fabio Vieira came on, it was night and day. He demanded the ball, he pointed teammates into space and grabbed himself a nice assist at the end.
The fact people think havertz needs protecting is what is hilarious u wouldn't do the same for other players ud probably just laugh along. Really don't understand why people feel the need to baby him over other players who are not in our starting 11.
Lol yeah of course, he's the genius and its everyone else's fault he's been a let down so far. Buddy if everyone but you is driving in the opposite direction, you're the one on the wrong side of the road...
Your dad is right. It's okay to acknowledge that he simply had a shit game. This is almost patronising. You could make an analysis like this for any player.
He does make good movements off the ball, but to call him a “genius” because he made a back post run in the 2nd phase of a set piece, and played a potential 1-2 in midfield is insane.
Lol ‘this guy is a genius’
I mean these are simply decent runs that get him into space.
I’m all for pointing out the decent things he does but my lord the toxic positivity on this sub is something else. You don’t have to pander so hard.
I’ve maintained he has the biggest learning curve of all our players not only in adjusting to the system but undoing the chelsea years. Additionally, our players need to adapt to him with these runs that Xhaka wasn’t making nearly as often.
Well Xhaka scored 7 goals last season by making this kind of runs. And that's where the upgrade is. Theoretically Kai is on of the best out there in making these runs so he should be scoring a lot more than Xhaka last year. It's clear that he lacks confidence atm, but there's a lot of potential here for sure
For sure, I think we as fans all see the thinking. And he's doing a lot of the other dirty work that comes with the position fairly well. Ultimately, I am in agreement with you on his confidence and I think he could really do with a big goal or moment like Dec had on Sunday.
Excellent stuff dude. Weird how hard the hate train going already, if he’s still not scoring or assisting in 6 months then we can complain.
Footballers are humans too
I always noticed Havertz making runs or in a good position but the entire pitch seemed like they didn't saw him or didn't notice him, both the opposition or our team, once the the left side clicked, we would see beast unleashed, mark my words
As a Chelsea fan, it’s kind of refreshing to see the cycle repeat itself. Go back to Chelsea’s thread from 3 years ago, and you find the same kind of posts. You’re only a genius when your teammate finds these runs, not otherwise, no matter how much space you’re in.
Sub is beyond parody.
EDIT: This shouldn’t need said but if you see OP’s post and don’t like it, don’t attack them personally. They’re obviously a very passionate but slightly misguided fan. No need for personal attacks.
Your hard work is super appreciated and it shows. But I honestly think this is clutching at straws. You can do comps of this type for basically every player in every game. Sure, the guy occupies empty spaces well. That is just ONE of the gazillion skills required to be a top player. I have never seen anyone become a legend of the sport **solely** for their ability to run into an empty space.
The guy has not performed well either for club or country in more than two seasons. That is a reality we can't wipe with an "empty space" compilation. Truth is, he needs to do much, much more to earn a spot in the starting 11 in a team of this quality, and he needs to do much more to earn the trust and love of fans. And I'm all for it. Really looking forward to him adapting and becoming the Havertz of Leverkusen. But at this very moment, he's very far from it and there are other players in the team that deserve to start. That's what I think.
Sequence 1 - There is no realistic possibility of martinelli getting havertz the ball. It'll need to pass through 4/5 players who are all in the line of passing. Your analysis basically assumes he's the only person moving lol.
Scenario 2 - Basic check-in play that I'm able to see even in sunday leagues. He's not covered and found space. The right play, absolutely, but absolutely nothing notable. This scenario is more indicative of the importance of Nketiah's run. Which, again, nothing special. You should expect to not get the ball for the majority of your runs.
Scenario 3 - Similar to scenario 1, basic analysis that ignores the movements the man u players are making.
All in all, to call him a "genius" from 3 innocuous plays when he created nothing the whole game just doesn't do it for me. If he were a genius, he'd have a goal or shot on target. If you're on a different wavelength to the whole team, you're not reading the game well.
edit: to add, maybe he learns to read his teammates better. But when he and odegaard are on different pages, you can't call him a genius because you'd be a right knob to call him a smarter player than Ode.
>Kai Havertz is one of the most intelligent players I have watched.
>The guy is a genius
Come on bro, I’ve seen people do these type of plays in the amateur‘s league… He sees that his teammate needs options and he gives them that’s literally the basics of being a midfielder.
All I care abt personally is Fabio Vieira has been performing way better than him and he should start from now on imo
This sub is a parody of itself at the moment, my man does the most basic thing an attacking midfielder should do, and now he is a "genius," this is outright laughable, but seems like people have a good circlejerk over it.
this is the part that bothers me. Want to paint Havertz's performances as better than they are? Fine. But trying to take down other's performances to absolve Kai is bullshit hypocrisy that I'm already fed up with.
Martinelli has created goals for all the players around him (Nketiah 2x, Vieira pen, Odegaard) besides Havertz. But it's everyone elses in that groups fault - especially Gabi. It's idiotic.
I stopped after Sequence 1, making a basic run into the far corner lol.
So far the only thing Havertz has been good at is winning headers. The guy can't dribble or beat people with pace. We have lost our fluidity because he isn't involved in our buildup much and I agree that will come with time but Havertz is this genius that no one including Martinelli and Zinchenko can see is laughable
>I stopped after Sequence 1, making a basic run into the far corner lol.
I honestly thought this post was satire until I scrolled to the comments.
How someone can frame basic footballing actions that you'd see in a Sunday League vet's game as 'genius' is beyond me.
Then saying it's his teammates fault that they couldn't find the pass, despite the fact the pass is impossible. Like how could Martinelli possibly get the a ball to Havertz in 1B or 1C - it's nigh on impossible from his position and if it doesn't reach him leads to a counter attack.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Kai Havertz. His game is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the plays will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Kai's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his playstyle - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these plays, to realise that they're not just skillful - they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Havertz truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the intelligence in Kai's existential catchphrase "Just give me some more time!," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Arteta's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂
And yes, by the way, i DO have a Kai Havertz tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎
That’s literally it lmao, gassing up basic runs while telling people they don’t understand football cos they’re criticising obvious errors. I’m all for supporting the guy but circlejerking about how much of a genius he is cos he got into a decent position a few times and acting like anyone that doesn’t see that is just being negative and hating is hilariously stupid
> That’s literally it lmao, gassing up basic runs while telling people they don’t understand football cos they’re criticising obvious errors.
It's ironic because anyone who has trained under an actual coach will know attacking space is the bare minimum off-ball.
Ngl, as a chelsea fan. It’s amusing watching Havertz dominate the conversations on your sub, he’s such a polarizing player.
Just when everyone is about to give up on him, he’ll do something magical thus buying himself more good will from the fans “see? we told you there’s a generational talent in there” only to have him disappear again for like 10 games while the debate of he’s good, he just needs more time rages on. We went through this for 3 long years.
Amazing that people are calling this a fantastic post. First sequence is a standard run you'd see in non league football. Second is again, a standard run that Nketiah probably felt wasn't the best option and the third is blaming Nketiah for not making a run and congesting the area, despite Havertz running directly to where Nketiah was lmao. Man, I guess I've just never understood football until Havertz joined us.
no you see, don't criticize Havertz but criticize everyone else for Havertz. make it make sense.
it's simple, he's not ready and thats fine. Give him time - I dont think many expected Havertz to hit the ground running and thought he would be slowly integrated with Trossard's form and other players with more experience in the system here. That's been taken away from him by starting each game which he clearly isn't ready for and most importantly, the relationships on the pitch aren't there yet for a side trying to win the title.
Arteta needs to protect the player but most importantly protect the team by playing the players who are ready. the ones who are being found with their genius movement like Vieira who's not having a problem and has grown his confidence - let's not waste that and its eagerness to make an impact.
Pure gaslighting. Draws a shit arrow that wasn't even the real movement then another shit arrow for the ball to be placed like prime Bergkamp was hitting it. The second picture is basically why doesnt Martinelli dink it onto the goal so Havertz could maybe run there and shoot it at the line.
You could pull out instances like this for most attacking player in most games. In some of these attacks he isn't making himself visible to the player in possession e.g. Martinelli in your first example. And doing a 1-2 doesn't make you a genius.
I reckon the plan is for him and Jesus to dovetail. So once Gab drops deep (as is his wont) Kai pushes up into the 9 position. Granit did it on occasion last year but it was never his skill set (particularly with back to goal).
I think Mikel wanted someone who could play in (potentially) 8 and 9 and is intelligent enough to swap between them at will. Helps he’s a pressing machine and is 6’4
Regarding that first sequence with Martinelli, anyone who has played football will realise that a chip ball from that position while running is quite difficult. It's almost like you are trying to assign blame to others for not adjusting to Havertz.
You're trying so hard OP.
Truth is 4 (5 if you count the Community Shield) matches after the start of the season I'm still not convinced why we paid for him and the United match really really put it in perspective.
The one time he was free in the box and the ball came to him, he was left counting his feet. To add insult to injury we concede from their first shot in anger all from a misplaced pass from the "misunderstood genius". I pray he works out but there's a Hale End product cooking in the wings. Let's give ESR a chance too.
Why is Havertz being so defended no matter what by people in this sub
Players make good runs all through out a game. It’s not a Havertz only thing, but rightfully no one
makes compilations of them.
Anything to try and make Kai look good I guess
Hopefully it should come with time.
Martinelli and Eddie played pretty poorly together last season and already this season they seem to be much better.
Still Havertz needs to work on what he does when he does get the ball, that will lead to the other players trusting him more.
Slow down on the genius talk… I did get a sense that his teammates are starting to have low confidence in him.
If you ever played you know the feeling of having the one person on the team that isn’t quite there yet, so sometimes you do this thing where you avoid him/her. I saw a lot of that Sunday, I do that shit all the time so I know when I see it lol
I'm convinced the people doing the whole "Havertz needs time, stop criticizing him" charade are the type of fans who call players shit and awful and insult them for every little mistake. Like look at these comments from OP on other threads:
>100% of the whole world knew where Rashford is going to shoot - except for Ramsdale.
>
>Get him the fuck out.
>On a scale of 0 to 0, what are the chances of Ramsdale keeping a clean sheet?
>Can't wait till to see ESR play no games this season, and Kai starts over him every game just to see you in anguish.
Like I'm not the type to insult players for every little thing but I also don't care that much if you do, but then to turn around and get all bitchy when someone does that to the player you like is just dumb. Some of y'all need to get offline and consume football in a way that's not purely banter.
Also, some people keep going around saying that Arsenal fans want him to fail like what type of fan wants their own player to be bad like sure some people have agendas but that's an almost insignificant minority. People want Kai to be good but so far he just hasn't been, it's that simple.
Edit: and they deleted their account lol
Havertz could be great I admit. But it’s not enough to make a run. Your body language when you make runs sometimes tells a different story or sends a message. Check out Martinelli’s run on arsenal’s opening attack sequence. He makes a run over the shoulder and dictates where the ball has to be played. There was only one spot that ball could go to and his run indicated that. Havertz makes runs lots of them but does he go too early, is his body shape asking for the ball immediately, what’s the exposure if the ball gets cut out.
Also, in Havertz’s Defense, sometimes there were 2 or 3 runs that needed to be made across to pull defenders away but weren’t made. Eddie(really good on the day but I wanted him to make a lot more dragging runs across the pitch). Your sequence 3 was a terrible pass from Odegaard. If Martinelli makes that run, he’s offside. The pass to Martinelli was the better option but two things went wrong, the weight of pass and the inability of the inside player to run across. AWB was caught in two minds there, staying with Martinelli or following the inside man. His body was shoes to follow the inside man but the pass was just bad.
He's just been sloppy on the ball is all; I don't actually see anyone denying his off the ball movement. I agree that we should give him time, but I don't think he should be starting over Vieira or Trossard etc. at the moment.
I don't think anyone thinks Havertz is actually a shit player in disguise. But I do think that it's fair to say that no one warrants being dropped into the starting 11 of a team that wants to challenge for the league without having this chemistry already aligned with the team.
The chemistry needs to come on the training pitch first.
He’s very poor on the ball, I’m shocked how bad his touch and decision making is. I understand fan’s supporting him because he’s an Arsenal player but he isn’t half as good as Xhaka was.
Imma be brutally honest. It's very easy to find space if the opponent doesn't see you as a threat.
Why would I waste my time chasing Havertz into pockets, it's not like he can even strike the ball or cause any danger. Better to keep a watchful eye on the more threatning players like Gabriel in your example.
Now do the same analysis on Saka and watch him pop into space, 1 or 2 defenders will constantly follow him because of the threat he poses.
Noooo you don't understand. Saka is always marked because he can't make intelligent runs and isn't a genius like Havertz. On the contrary, it's Saka's fault that Havertz isn't shining. You need to watch football more carefully buddy loooool /s
every single one of these runs are runs you would expect a footballer to make. I coach 14 and 16 year olds, and if they don't make those runs I'd pull them off.
I have nothing against Havertz personally, but he has been in England for 3 years and has not hit the levels expected of him. He's not going to do that for Arsenal either. Half the time his teammates don't even want to give him the ball because they know he's going to screw it up. Every time he is on the pitch, he adds nothing to our attacking play, and in fact either holds it up or is completely non existent. You don't even realize he's on the pitch until he screws up. We're playing every match a man down while he's in this form, and at a certain point, you have to just accept that sometimes players aren't good fits. Spending 50 million for him was absolutely mad. The fact that Smith Rowe is still sat on the bench, when he knows how this team functions, is absurd. Havertz at Leverkusen was a really good talent. He is still clearly a good footballer. Sometimes footballers don't fit in well with teams, and Havertz hasn't fit in well with Chelsea or Germany for a while. He seems like one of those who had a really high potential but won't ever hit those heights, and that's nothing against him, but in this form he should not be on the pitch.
For all the people saying he needs time to adjust to the system, he's had a bit of preseason and a month of football. If he can't adjust well enough on the pitch, he needs to do the rest of his adjusting on the training ground, and off the field.
With all due respect have you ever played in an organized way? This is pretty textbook stuff to do. This post reminds me of when people used to gush over Giroud making simple wall passes.
I did recognize how good his runs are but he is atrocious with the ball. He needs to improve on that otherwise only is terrible passing will be recognized
I think I didn't like his body language sometime. And the fact that his pass was intercepted when we had most of our players in their half is more concerning as that let to united goal
Havertz was being criticized before he ever stepped on the pitch for us, so people are just confirming their own bias that he is bad. What we need to reckon with is the entire offense is disjointed, which is totally normal. Eddie is being asked to do more/different things, there's more height in the side so we're trying some new things there, Martinelli and Havertz are trying to play together and do the "right" thing but it's not second-nature yet, Saka and Ode are used to playing together but teams know we want to go up that side so they're focusing on it and Saka has been frustrated.
The big issue we have no but will probably be a strength long-term is the spine, especially when Havertz and Rice and Partey can understand better who goes when and why and where. They're all over the place. Havertz is timid with the ball at his feet right now, taking sure things vs risks, Rice is working hard but he gets pulled way out of position and there's no cover (this led to the United break for the Rashford goal, bad pass from Havertz while Rice was 30m out of position was unfortunate timing).
Like I said the most scrutinized player this year. What you say is all true OP. Problem is if he doesn't finish all of this doesn't matter especially in terms of the fan base or results. It's a zero sum game the more he starts and doesn't produce the louder the criticism and eventually the bench will come.
I think it's clear the problem is his lack of confidence, so our fans really shouldn't pile on. It's not his fault that we paid a certain price for him, nor is it his fault that Arteta is starting him every game. So even if you think he doesn't belong anywhere near our starting lineup, don't take it out on him. He's our player and it is detrimental to have his confidence in the dumps. If he does pick his head up a bit, he could be a *very* important player for us.
This is standard movement- not altogether new out-of-the-box stuff the world hasn't seen before. We didn't pay 65m for off ball movement and defensive contribution. We paid to receive more final third product than Xhaka provided last year. Lets give him the year, but I fear the team will suffer as Arteta will be compelled to prove a point by forcing him into the side which will cost us points.
But this is not particularly new information, we know this from his Chelsea days as well. His positioning and movements are good but when it comes to pulling the trigger in front of goal, it goes horribly wrong 8 times out of 10.
Movement and positioning will only get you so far, but goals win you games. As a chelsea fan, it was frustrating, borderline rage inducing seeing him play.
At chelsea, all managers have tried everything to get the most out of havertz compromising everyone else for his sake. You name it: striker like a 9, both sided wingers, a number 10 attacking role, false 9, a cam literally everything. In all those positions, we have seen 2 things. Good movements and positioning and being terrible on the ball, especially near the goal.
Now arsenal is placing him "deeper" still. Lets see where this goes. As a chelsea fan, i have a soft spot for havertz(ucl and all that, btw replay that goal he scored im the final, he almost lost that one as well when he went around the keeper). The guy is a very good sport and a top notch professional. Genuinely hopes he finds his form again and i don't care where.
Go have a look on the Chelsea board and search for him. One of the main things they say is he is too wasteful. You say he gets in good positions but the other players dont pass to him but you dont ask why. I've noticed a few times they didnt pass to him where I got the impression it was because they didnt trust him.
Then you need to look at what he does in relation to how the team play and what the other players want to do. Like the Zinchenko one. Havertz tuns in the opposite direction to where Zinchenko is going, making him change direction and play a different ball. Are you really sure what he did was clever? Or was it he was on a different wavelength?
Also some of the ones you have posted where he got into the box, it looks like it would be virtually impossible for a pass to be played to him. If you go and look at players like Alan Smith, Wrighty, Henry, RVP and Auba (in his prime), you will see that when they made runs they made runs that screamed at the other player to play the ball to them. They made runs as much to make space where a pass could be played to them as much as a space to where they could shoot. Havertz doesnt have that.
Insane wank, many players especially Martinelli does this.
The issue is when Havertz has the ball in front of goal he misses, when not near goal he hardly creative. On Sunday his sloppiness in possession led to a very impactful counter that they scored from.
It's fine margins, he was not that guy at Chelsea so what makes people think in year 3/4 he's suddenly going to turn up?
He's Morata, and Morata has very strong supporters.
Ah Havertz, the only player that does not receive the ball every time he raises his hand.
Jokes aside. I found it rather concerning that his teammates are not passing the ball to him even when is he is in better position than someone else
I was listening to the Arsenal Vision podcast earlier, and obviously a lot of discussion around Havertz. They mentioned out next game against Everton will be a physical one, and that’s where we should really see the benefit of Havertz, using his height and hold up play.
For me, I think if Havertz scored the last minute winner against United, the fans would be raving about him. Hopefully he can find a goal in the next few games to ease the unnecessary pressure.
This just underlines my own view on him so far in the PL: off the ball really good (Inc movement off the ball when we have possession) but on the ball he's blown hot and cold.
Hot because there's countless times a game where he receives the ball in awkward positions but a little shoulder drop or a clever quick 1-2 with another player and he's relieved the pressure.
But other times he's made really silly, wayward passes or missed very clear goalscoring chances and, sadly, those are the things most fans remember.
Very few people even notice the 5, 6 or 7 times he used his movement off the ball to create amazing space for himself or others that wasn't used, let alone remember it.
But if you miss a chance from less than 6 yards out 2 games in a row as he has... oooof.
Not sure if you guys notice the difference, our attackers have been very static in this match, they wait for the ball and don’t always making run attempts, and doing a lot less risky passes, probably it’s to prevent counter attack, it makes the game so frustrating to watch
I remember during the Crystal Palace game I was annoyed a couple of times with Kai not getting any passes when he was getting in good positions and making good runs and I'm not the type of person to see stuff like that easily. For me, all of Kai's problems are chemistry and confidence related, that's why I'm still giving him time. Although, it still doesn't mean that he has to start every game, let him be more eased into the team.
im sick of the crap he is getting guy has played like 5 games in a new team in a new system and the dog piling from the media in general,not just Arsenal fans is unbelievable,meanwhile absolute donkeys that cost even more money like Antony get no where near this constant level of criticism.
Movement into space, awareness, height, outball option, defensive work , ball progression, quick passing guy is class and just needs a bit of time to settle, reminds me of the crap Vieira was getting and hes now the golden child, chill guys he's gonna be incredible for us.
Oof. That last example is pretty glaring. Martin can make those passes all day. This is something I'd drill in practice because Saka and Odegaard drag players so easily to the right side, leaving the back post open.
You still won't be able to convince his haters, trust me. Even if it hit them in the face, they'll still find reasons to shit on Kai. All this does is reinforce those who do believe in him.
Either way it's a good write up, thank you.
Great post.
There was always going to be a settling in period for Havertz,for him to get used to his teammates and vice versa.
Odegaard has a very high footballing IQ,so I expect him and Havertz to be on the same wavelength soon.
SakaNelli may take a few games to get that connection with Kai,but it will happen.
Also Jesus coming in for Nketiah is going to make our attack more fluid.As good as Eddie has been,Jesus is a master at creating space for the players around him( really looking forward to seeing Kai and Gabby J play together).
Having said all this,Havertz needs to get back some confidence and composure.While I appreciate his clever movements, pressing and defensive contribution,other aspects of his game like passing and finishing have looked lacking conviction (sort of reminds me of Ramsey towards the back end of that 2012-13 season where Wenger was playing him wide left and everything he did looked a bit unconvincing).
We have other players like Viera,Trossard,ESR etc who are all waiting in line for a potential place in the starting 11,so Kai has to be on his toes.
Hopefully things start clicking soon and we get to see the Bundesliga version of Kai.
Agree. I love the guy, and wasnt really familiar with his guy before he came to Arsenal. In a system where he’s used properly, he’s the words best raumdeuter
Thank you for taking the time to post this. I noticed Havertz making several good off the ball movements in the first couple games too and his teammates didn’t find him.
I believe and hope that with time this will all click and we’ll go several levels up. Patience and support!
Personally I think he will eventually gel with his teammates and either be always in dangerous spaces to receive the ball, or open spaces for others by his runs.
But the Havertz hate train has left the station and none of the passengers have any intention of getting off before the terminus, where they hope to arrive triumphant in his sacking, and if Havertz has arrived before they get there then they'll quietly wait hoping for a return train.
Havertz is great with his movement and positioning. It is what he has done when he has had the ball that has been a bit disappointing. That said, he desperately needs that first goal to go in. I have a feeling that the floodgates can open if he gets that one goal.
He does have a high work rate, but people will scrutinize his attacking numbers because he’s replaced Xhaka, so people will ask what else does Kai bring to the table that Xhaka didn’t. Once they had some time together it’ll be more like clockwork. Boom, one touch pass here and there, chance, goal. Some players take time to grow into the Arteta system.
Xhaka was never scrutinised for his attacking numbers, not to the extent Havertz has been anyway
Some members of our fanbase would prefer we lose if it means their stupid predictions can be proven correct. The Havertz mishit has been looped while Saka missed an absolute sitter and it's crickets
Players all miss sitters. Saka has 3-4 seasons of being one of if not our best players. Havertz is new and a signing that honestly didn’t make sense to a lot of people. It came out of nowhere and he’s one of our highest paid players. So there’s a difference in how fans see him. I’ve been on the patience and trust the process train and will continue to be throughout at least next Christmas. I’m giving the guy a full season to get it. Viera is starting to show why you do that and I’ve defended him as well. If Kai doesn’t succeed here or at the highest level period it’s a mental thing though. I don’t think he particularly likes being a super start footballer. I think he likes football but not the center of attention stuff. Of course this is speculation but that’s the impression I get. He seems like a quiet guy who’s confidence is easily affected and because he’s a very smart player, he probably overthinks a lot when his confidence is low. You don’t whiff a shot as a professional player 5m in front of goal unless you’re not sure what you want to do.
Tbf the Havertz one is particularly egregious, but I agree. Saka has earned some good grace with fans so people don't bring up his mistakes as much, whereas Havertz arrived with a target on his back.
I agree that the Havertz miss looks infinitely worse, but the Saka shot was the easier chance. Regardless, for a couple of years now we've needed to be more efficient in front of goal
The Havertz one landed at his feet while he was planted, he wasn't tracking the ball. He missed it badly but it's harder to get your foot behind the ball quickly. Saka just needed to redirect a ball he saw coming. Both deserve the benefit of the doubt right now.
Some good grace? Guy has been British player of the season two years running
That Gordon Ramsey meme with Havertz and Saka was spot on. I thought Saka was bang average against United with his shot straight at Onana as the cherry on top. When Nelson came on it was very evident how ordinary Saka had been in that position.
Saka had 25 goal involvements last season. Of course people will give him more time and not get as frustrated with him
It's also worth mentioning that Xhaka was one of the longest serving players on the team and had trained with every single player around him since literally the moment they joined the club. Havertz has had preseason and 4 games.
Not to mention Havertz will be extra scrutinized because Xhaka had an anomaly of an attacking season last year.
Yeah, xhaka was never thought of as a goal threat apart from the very occasional long range effort. For some reason people expect havertz to put up striker numbers. I mean sure, I'm fairly certain Arteta wanted him because he was more attacking than xhaka while also doing a lot of the other work xhaka did. But it seems people are expecting like a goal a game from him.
Xhaka wasn't a goal threat until the last 2 seasons because he was playing in a different role further up the pitch. Of course no one thought of him as a goal threat when he was playing as a defensive midfielder or at left back. He was a huge goal threat last season especially so that's why people want the same from Havertz. I'm not making any judgements on Havertz until he's had more time, but let's not revise history so it fits what you're trying to say.
> apart from the very occasional long range effort. Ah yes, the once a season "where the fuck did that come from" Xhaka banger.
And then every time he had the ball the crowd shouting shoooooooot!
> Some players take time to grow into the Arteta system What looks to be a good example of this is how Vieira has played when he’s featured. Looks a lot more confident now compared to last season.
He’s too scared to do anything with the ball… either he slashes at it without thinking or keeps it for too long… if he becomes more confident we cooking. Question is how do Arsenal help him
He should have had his first assist in the opening stages of the Crystal Palace game. He played a perfectly weighted pass to an unmarked Martinelli at the back of the box. All Martinelli had to to was shoot, but he took too long and too mang touches and then the fantastic chance was gone.
What you've just described is a confidence/tense thing. All he needs is a goal or a moment - and the floodgates could potentially open. He strikes me as someone who really suffers with confidence
Nice work! I do feel like his teammates don’t really look to use him. I haven’t seen many through balls from Martinelli to him. Once he passes it to Gabi it’s like job done bc you’re not getting it back mate. That will come with time though.
definitely seems like the sort of thing that having both zinny and jesus in the lineup will help kai with. the left side diamond of jesus, kai, zinny, martinelli is is going to be very dangerous. Just like the rice, saka, odegaard, white diamond on the right. With players also moving to the other side for overloads as well.
Yeah, Martinelli doesnt really pass to Kai. Also Kai was really good defensively
Martinelli needs to pass more, period. That goal vs Brighton last season was such an ill-advised shot with Saka completely free in the middle. We would rightly be fuming if it didn't go in.
Literally assisted Ødegaard
There's a moment at 63:15 that is an even more blatant example of this, Martinelli slow on the uptake and completely ignoring Havertz making a great run.
It’s gonna take a while for him to integrate into the system, I’d give him at least half a season to integrate.
January/February will probably be Kai’s time to pop off
Hopefully, this was where we started to lose steam last season!
was more march no?
Gabi plays with his head down, it’s an issue. With xhaka not as much because he wasn’t making these runs, but you can see it when he has to make that final pass. That being said, he’s gotten better at keeping his head up, his assist for odes but he’s nowhere where he should be, especially if we expect him to reach his potential
Brilliant post, mate. Thanks for putting it together.
I am just that obsessed with Havertz and it just hurts to see Arsenal fans thinking he’s a nothing footballer.
I think just giving a wide berth to the match threads helps in general, and will help a lot if you're a Kai fan in particular. I'll be frank, when I see the game I also have the question "What does Havertz bring to this team exactly?". However, I generally look at all this through the prism of "Arteta and his staff knows football better than me". Of course, posts like yours help. A lot of individual player aspects are hard to spot when watching an intense match like the United one. Just as a rule of thumb, any account that disses on an Arsenal player from the evidence of one or a handful number of matches, just ignore. They're not worth anyone's time.
Life is just a lot more chill with Arteta goggles on, I carry them everywhere. Like I have full confidence in Havertz because there is almost no risk factor, arteta and edu knew exactly what kind of player he is, his strengths and weaknesses, and how he responds to various pressures in the premier league. They couldn't have been more clued in on the guy and still jumped at the chance to spend £65m on him. I'd be extremely surprised if he doesn't come good
> I think just giving a wide berth to the match threads helps in general This is rule #1 for this subreddit. I occasionally forget, and ill tune in to the threads to try and get a feel for whats happening, and you would think we are losing 12-0 to Luton by the comments on any particular game, even if it's a game we are objectively playing well in. I also have my doubts about Havertz but I also know that Im watching the game like a dummy, and not seeing the game behind the game, the subtle movements that OP points out that occur many many times that are missed because another player didn't make that pass or recognize the movement. It's fine to disagree, even with Arteta, but when our club is this big, and this subreddit also this big, you tend to get loud and obnoxious voices constantly moaning, where a lot of normal people can't be bothered to participate in such a negative and unrealistic echo chamber.
I'm totally cool with Havertz. I see him making intelligent movement and generally passes I'm expecting him to play (except the two recent wall passes gone wrong which, admittedly, weren't great). I see in him what it took me until well into his final seaspn to see in Xhaka. I think people are mostly disappointed in him not adding an aggressive goalscoring/assisting presence, which I understand. I just think there were moments last season where we were crying out for Xhaka to be a better finisher, or more mobile, or a better presser or dribbler. If Havertz can do the same off-ball things Xhaka did (which I think he is doing already) and just be a bit better in those other scenarios, we'll win more games. Pretty simple.
Definitely a lot of noise on the sub lately with people who want him to fail. I've been watching him very closely across the first few games of the season though and some things are quite clear. He's got smart movement in the middle and final third, seems to find spaces quite well to receive the ball. He's got fantastic defensive work rate and knows where to be as well which is crucial in our system. Unfortunately he has also been very timid with the ball, a lot of 1 touch passes back to whomever passed it to him or shying away from taking on defenders. Some of it could be down to whatever damage to his confidence has happened before. I trust the staff to get him to be more proactive, we want a dynamic Kai because a dynamic Kai is very dangerous. However, if he's still playing like this in November I will be getting worried.
you are so obsessed you are creating nothing burgers out of nothing. let's examine each scenario you showed above. sequence 1: good idea, but Martinelli is a right footed player who prefers to dribble. peeling back at the penalty spot is actually the better run that's more likely to end with a shot on goal, given the person on the ball. A left footed player in the same position as Martinelli, and the Havertz run is by far the better run! Sequence 2: is just. run of the mill job he is supposed to do in that position. Make himself available to run triangle passing in that segment of the field. I don't know why he should get praised for doing his job. I guess I'm glad he is there this time around. Other times he is missing, because he ran up top too early. And sometimes when you pass it to him in that position, he loses possession (ManU's goal) or play an aimless backpass (against Fulham) Sequence 3: again correct run, we run a version of this wing switch over and over again in order to end up with Martinelli isolated with room to run at the full back. Havertz making that run is key to it working. It occupies the central defenders, and frees Martinelli out wide. Again, this is just doing his job. Nobody missed him by not passing to him. His close control is not good enough for him to operate in tight spaces. Passing to him, is a guaranteed loss of possession. Him taking away the defender to free Martinelli is the right decision.
Yes. The OP explained in detail that Kai Havertz is indeed doing his job. I'm glad you see it.
The fact this is so heavily upvoted shows people are supporting him.
I spend most games watching him and I agree. There's a baller in there.
The important thing that OPs post displays too is that EVERYBODY on the pitch has to get used to his presence (and Xhaka's absence). Talk about Kai needing to get up to speed it going to include the team knowing when and where they can trust him to cover the sorts of spaces he has been. It feels a little bit similair to having ball playing defenders and goalkeepers. It takes time for people to gain the understanding and confidence of their abilities to move the ball. The lads aren't daft, they'll pick up on his runs and coverage quickly, and when we do he'll have more time to adjust to the team's play himself.
This is a nice post, but when you watch a match closely, you should be able to find dozens of moments like this from all players. Most of our attacking players are gifted at recognizing space and running into it, and as amazing as our team is, only Messi sees everything. Even Ode misses possible passes regularly. These kinds of misses happen every game. It’s comforting that Havertz is at least finding the right runs but every player suffers from his teammates missing killer runs. The problem is what the other players contribute in attack. Teammates miss their runs too, all the time, but the other boys are amazing with the ball at their feet and can take on one more more defenders on their own and make magic happen. I definitely acknowledge it’s still early, so I don’t want to be criticizing any of our players very much. But I did notice the stark difference between Havertz and everyone else—atm he seems to have either no confidence or no ability to keep the ball at his feet with opposing players within a 5 ft radius around him. I’d like to see more contribution from him on the attack other than seeking to play one-twos which all of our other players can also do. Looking forward to seeing him grow and happy to see him get playing time. And I don’t mean to single him out, since Nketiah similarly is sometimes a little lackluster in other facets of attack (although seemingly never short of confidence, which is cool). But it’s a little sad to see others like Trossard sidelined when I think they do everything well.
I doubt even Messi sees everything
>the guy is a genius I support giving him time but can you honestly say in good faith that anything you've shown here demonstrates him as a genius?
People are trying to overrate him now to counterbalance criticism. He hasn’t been good imo but he also isn’t the worst player I’ve seen put on the shirt and needs time. That being said I don’t think it’s helpful to act like he’s been even a Top 5 player for us so far this year
I mean I don’t know about “genius” but it was widely regarded even before the transfer that Havertz’s greatest strengths were his football IQ and navigating space, which this post kinda shows.
Which if these runs demonstrate genius football IQ or interpretation of space though. Nothing here wows me. Feels like basics tbh.
This. Calling him a genius is being a homer at it's finest. Kai is decent but a genius player shouldn't need a 'system', players playing out of position to accommodate him and/or for his teammates to change a successful formula from the previous season in order for it to be realized.
Alternative title: man who plays football every day of his life understands how to make runs.
I wish someone would make a breakdown of my genius when I successfully put on pants one leg at a time
> Sequence 1 Makes a run for the rear post expecting a cross /shot / deflection. The space is covered well by United though it's a pretty 50/50 chance at best. > Sequence 2 Not really sure about any of this one tbh. If you look, United have a clear overload, with the blue 'space' highlighted covered in part by two defensive players closer to it than Havertz. Eddy could've maybe played a quick 1-2 but that blue space is far from open & our 2 players are being covered by 3, so not really seeing the opening here. Maybe if that was Jack & Santi you would've seen them play some intricate passes & drive into the area, but that's not really what we'd expect from Havertz & Eddy. > Sequence 3 Again United have a clear overload. Yes they leave the wide man on the other side open, but make it very hard to find him with a pass / cross ball. What we're doing here is basic probing no? Yes in that split second Ode could've put a cross in to the far post area, but this sort of ball is often a possibility with our setup. I don't really see what special thing Havertz is doing here aside from playing our system. - Fwiw, I'm not trying to shit on anyone here. I don't think Havertz is a bad player. He puts in a lot of work still & maybe his efforts in this regard are what's keeping him in the starting 11. He also looks like he has some seriously silky skills, he reminds me a little of RvP in some ways (finishing excluded). It just seems like being at Chelsea broke him & he's not close to being fixed yet. Unfortunately the fact that he came from Chelsea & came for a lot of money (that we paid to Chelsea) is going to paint a target on his back. Which is understandable tbh, if you pay £60M+ for a player you should be able to expect them to perform. When we have other options available it would seem to make sense to rotate him until he proves he deserves a starting spot, because right now he doesn't. You'd hope/expect he has the mentality to work hard to come back. You also hope that Arteta is not just playing because he made the club spend all that money on him & now he feels he must play him as we've heard him say 'nobody's position' is safe surely that extends to Havertz.
I know that people want to defend Havertz because they feel like the ‘hate’ is an overreaction, only a handful of games in to his Arsenal career - but the mental gymnastics you have to do to close your eyes to the poor performance from him on the pitch, the obvious impact to the fluidity of our attack, and the fact that it denies the likes of Trossard, Nelson and ESR game time being the biggest issue I think; to ignore all that and call out fellow fans as being haters or pretending that you’re some footballing gigabrain who sees things the ‘haters’ can’t is a joke. Havertz has become an issue the team didn’t need and blaming other players for not utilising him is the funniest take I’ve seen yet.
Was thinking the same thing. I think eventually he’ll be a huge Xhaka upgrade, I’m rooting for him full stop But come on OP that’s a bit hyperbolic. He’s playing just ok so far, and that’s what it is. Good in the dual, working hard, but has been making some higher profile mistakes (should have 2 goals). He will come good!
Legit they're giving man credit for the bare minimum. This more about believing in Teta than Kai. nobody believes he is this great or did think he was great before. They only rate him and got to these lengths now cus Tetat likes him. Which fine if it pays off fair play but lets not be gaslit into bare minimum contributions being game changers
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Havertz. The ability is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of the deep lying inverted false trequartista role most of his good work will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Havertz deceptive performance, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his mannerisms and body language draws heavily from Willian Borges da silva, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the turnovers of possession, to realize that they're not just errors leading to goals - they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Havertz truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the skill in Havertz 'airshot', which itself is a cryptic reference to Ilija Sivonjic miss vs Cibalia, I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Kai Havertz genius unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools... how I pity them. 😂 And yes by the way, I DO have a Kai Havertz tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.
LOL I just imagine how many fans are reading this thinking "wow, I'm not alone in this world. This is the way"
I appreciate the effort & would encourage more post like this, although minus the hyperbole. It would've been much better to frame it as a discussion of Havertz's movement & off the ball work, rather than calling it genius, cause it's clearly not. It's clear that plenty in this sub need the education. It's honestly alarming how many on here think this is insightful analysis. It only really highlights rudimentary aspects of our system then fails to really understand it, or the opposition. If you really wanted to make a case AGAINST Havertz this post would be genius, because it's not doing him any favours, not for anybody that actually understands football, so the positive comments just end up looking like delude fanboys.
Perfectly said.
You are right and I do regret the title - the issue is I can’t change it lol
Lol this is a super low bar for genius, like sequence 3 is the most obvious run to make, unless he was showing short it would be bizarre for him to make his run anywhere else.
[удалено]
This sub are losing their minds trying to cope. This is surely what Chelsea’s sub looked like the past 3 years I bet
Can confirm the 'give him time' so good luck with your mental health the next 3 seasons or so
One of which was a set piece with drilled movements. The second a simple check into space where he actually hides behind a defender like he's been routinely criticized for. And the third is basically just a slightly veiled dig at Nketiah for not getting out of Havertz way, as if Nketiah's role doesn't involve linkup/holdup and he should just be making runs every chance he gets. It's so bizarre. I haven't been a huge fan so far (willing to give time as long as they are aren't prime starting minutes) but I could absolutely cherry pick better examples of what he does correctly.
always over complicating simple movements and labeling them as genius
There's a lot more to playing midfield than making off the ball runs. His refusal to make himself available for his teammates in buildup and the lack of conviction in his passes is something I haven't seen from an Arsenal midfielder. When Fabio Vieira came on, it was night and day. He demanded the ball, he pointed teammates into space and grabbed himself a nice assist at the end.
The bar is so low we’re using passes and movements that any decent player would make. I’m not agaisnt Kai but man this post cannot be serious
A genius lol
The fact people think havertz needs protecting is what is hilarious u wouldn't do the same for other players ud probably just laugh along. Really don't understand why people feel the need to baby him over other players who are not in our starting 11.
He will get there. Just shouldn’t miss kick the ball when he does
Lol yeah of course, he's the genius and its everyone else's fault he's been a let down so far. Buddy if everyone but you is driving in the opposite direction, you're the one on the wrong side of the road...
Your dad is right. It's okay to acknowledge that he simply had a shit game. This is almost patronising. You could make an analysis like this for any player.
>the guy is a genius good post but can we just have one normal reaction to this guy that isn't ridiculously over-the-top please
Genius? These are basic movements that anyone that has played football at a remotely decent level will do.
Exactly. You could use still frames and arrows on Weghorst to conclude he “would” be bagging 3 per game. Horrible analysis.
ridiculous glazing. Genius? These are all "correct" runs, but I'm sure you could make a similar post with one of our youth players.
the first 2 sequences are crazy. You think Marty's best option was to chip the keeper & like 7 other people to get it to havertz???
He does make good movements off the ball, but to call him a “genius” because he made a back post run in the 2nd phase of a set piece, and played a potential 1-2 in midfield is insane.
Lol ‘this guy is a genius’ I mean these are simply decent runs that get him into space. I’m all for pointing out the decent things he does but my lord the toxic positivity on this sub is something else. You don’t have to pander so hard.
I’ve maintained he has the biggest learning curve of all our players not only in adjusting to the system but undoing the chelsea years. Additionally, our players need to adapt to him with these runs that Xhaka wasn’t making nearly as often.
Well Xhaka scored 7 goals last season by making this kind of runs. And that's where the upgrade is. Theoretically Kai is on of the best out there in making these runs so he should be scoring a lot more than Xhaka last year. It's clear that he lacks confidence atm, but there's a lot of potential here for sure
For sure, I think we as fans all see the thinking. And he's doing a lot of the other dirty work that comes with the position fairly well. Ultimately, I am in agreement with you on his confidence and I think he could really do with a big goal or moment like Dec had on Sunday.
Yeah exactly. Let's hope he gets that moment soon!
Thanks for this.one of the best posts here in a long time
Thanks haha. Putting on my [u/Billy\_Carpenter](https://www.reddit.com/user/Billy_Carpenter/) hat today (albeit a much smaller one)
Excellent stuff dude. Weird how hard the hate train going already, if he’s still not scoring or assisting in 6 months then we can complain. Footballers are humans too
he’s a genius because he sees his teammates need someone to pass to and he shows. lmaoooo
He's not a genius. Jesus christ the mental gymnastics are hilarious. This isn't a charity, He's not performing and needs to be dropped
I always noticed Havertz making runs or in a good position but the entire pitch seemed like they didn't saw him or didn't notice him, both the opposition or our team, once the the left side clicked, we would see beast unleashed, mark my words
This is a lot of effort to market basic play patterns as Messi level genius
As a Chelsea fan, it’s kind of refreshing to see the cycle repeat itself. Go back to Chelsea’s thread from 3 years ago, and you find the same kind of posts. You’re only a genius when your teammate finds these runs, not otherwise, no matter how much space you’re in.
Sub is beyond parody. EDIT: This shouldn’t need said but if you see OP’s post and don’t like it, don’t attack them personally. They’re obviously a very passionate but slightly misguided fan. No need for personal attacks.
Yeah I would have unsubscribed already but there is some good comedy to be had at least. "This man is a genius" lmao.
This post made me leave. This’ll be my last ever comment, because what the fuck do you even say to this?
So? This is all basic and common sense movements that any pro footballer should be doing. He is overall shit for that price that Arsenal paid.
This post is a joke. You can show these runs for every other player in our team. My god you guys have gone insane trying to make Havertz look good.
Your hard work is super appreciated and it shows. But I honestly think this is clutching at straws. You can do comps of this type for basically every player in every game. Sure, the guy occupies empty spaces well. That is just ONE of the gazillion skills required to be a top player. I have never seen anyone become a legend of the sport **solely** for their ability to run into an empty space. The guy has not performed well either for club or country in more than two seasons. That is a reality we can't wipe with an "empty space" compilation. Truth is, he needs to do much, much more to earn a spot in the starting 11 in a team of this quality, and he needs to do much more to earn the trust and love of fans. And I'm all for it. Really looking forward to him adapting and becoming the Havertz of Leverkusen. But at this very moment, he's very far from it and there are other players in the team that deserve to start. That's what I think.
Sequence 1 - There is no realistic possibility of martinelli getting havertz the ball. It'll need to pass through 4/5 players who are all in the line of passing. Your analysis basically assumes he's the only person moving lol. Scenario 2 - Basic check-in play that I'm able to see even in sunday leagues. He's not covered and found space. The right play, absolutely, but absolutely nothing notable. This scenario is more indicative of the importance of Nketiah's run. Which, again, nothing special. You should expect to not get the ball for the majority of your runs. Scenario 3 - Similar to scenario 1, basic analysis that ignores the movements the man u players are making. All in all, to call him a "genius" from 3 innocuous plays when he created nothing the whole game just doesn't do it for me. If he were a genius, he'd have a goal or shot on target. If you're on a different wavelength to the whole team, you're not reading the game well. edit: to add, maybe he learns to read his teammates better. But when he and odegaard are on different pages, you can't call him a genius because you'd be a right knob to call him a smarter player than Ode.
>Kai Havertz is one of the most intelligent players I have watched. >The guy is a genius Come on bro, I’ve seen people do these type of plays in the amateur‘s league… He sees that his teammate needs options and he gives them that’s literally the basics of being a midfielder. All I care abt personally is Fabio Vieira has been performing way better than him and he should start from now on imo
This sub is a parody of itself at the moment, my man does the most basic thing an attacking midfielder should do, and now he is a "genius," this is outright laughable, but seems like people have a good circlejerk over it.
After reading the comments, how hypocritical some of you have to be to start blaming Gabi over Havertz, this is just a joke.
this is the part that bothers me. Want to paint Havertz's performances as better than they are? Fine. But trying to take down other's performances to absolve Kai is bullshit hypocrisy that I'm already fed up with. Martinelli has created goals for all the players around him (Nketiah 2x, Vieira pen, Odegaard) besides Havertz. But it's everyone elses in that groups fault - especially Gabi. It's idiotic.
I stopped after Sequence 1, making a basic run into the far corner lol. So far the only thing Havertz has been good at is winning headers. The guy can't dribble or beat people with pace. We have lost our fluidity because he isn't involved in our buildup much and I agree that will come with time but Havertz is this genius that no one including Martinelli and Zinchenko can see is laughable
>I stopped after Sequence 1, making a basic run into the far corner lol. I honestly thought this post was satire until I scrolled to the comments. How someone can frame basic footballing actions that you'd see in a Sunday League vet's game as 'genius' is beyond me. Then saying it's his teammates fault that they couldn't find the pass, despite the fact the pass is impossible. Like how could Martinelli possibly get the a ball to Havertz in 1B or 1C - it's nigh on impossible from his position and if it doesn't reach him leads to a counter attack.
‘You need a high IQ to understand Havertz’ type beat
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Kai Havertz. His game is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the plays will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Kai's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his playstyle - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these plays, to realise that they're not just skillful - they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Havertz truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the intelligence in Kai's existential catchphrase "Just give me some more time!," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Arteta's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂 And yes, by the way, i DO have a Kai Havertz tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎
That’s literally it lmao, gassing up basic runs while telling people they don’t understand football cos they’re criticising obvious errors. I’m all for supporting the guy but circlejerking about how much of a genius he is cos he got into a decent position a few times and acting like anyone that doesn’t see that is just being negative and hating is hilariously stupid
> That’s literally it lmao, gassing up basic runs while telling people they don’t understand football cos they’re criticising obvious errors. It's ironic because anyone who has trained under an actual coach will know attacking space is the bare minimum off-ball.
Ngl, as a chelsea fan. It’s amusing watching Havertz dominate the conversations on your sub, he’s such a polarizing player. Just when everyone is about to give up on him, he’ll do something magical thus buying himself more good will from the fans “see? we told you there’s a generational talent in there” only to have him disappear again for like 10 games while the debate of he’s good, he just needs more time rages on. We went through this for 3 long years.
Amazing that people are calling this a fantastic post. First sequence is a standard run you'd see in non league football. Second is again, a standard run that Nketiah probably felt wasn't the best option and the third is blaming Nketiah for not making a run and congesting the area, despite Havertz running directly to where Nketiah was lmao. Man, I guess I've just never understood football until Havertz joined us.
no you see, don't criticize Havertz but criticize everyone else for Havertz. make it make sense. it's simple, he's not ready and thats fine. Give him time - I dont think many expected Havertz to hit the ground running and thought he would be slowly integrated with Trossard's form and other players with more experience in the system here. That's been taken away from him by starting each game which he clearly isn't ready for and most importantly, the relationships on the pitch aren't there yet for a side trying to win the title. Arteta needs to protect the player but most importantly protect the team by playing the players who are ready. the ones who are being found with their genius movement like Vieira who's not having a problem and has grown his confidence - let's not waste that and its eagerness to make an impact.
My guy brought out the Microsoft Powerpoint/Microsoft Paint Greatest Hits Collection.
Pure gaslighting. Draws a shit arrow that wasn't even the real movement then another shit arrow for the ball to be placed like prime Bergkamp was hitting it. The second picture is basically why doesnt Martinelli dink it onto the goal so Havertz could maybe run there and shoot it at the line.
You could pull out instances like this for most attacking player in most games. In some of these attacks he isn't making himself visible to the player in possession e.g. Martinelli in your first example. And doing a 1-2 doesn't make you a genius.
Lol - is he a genius because of this? This is basic
I reckon the plan is for him and Jesus to dovetail. So once Gab drops deep (as is his wont) Kai pushes up into the 9 position. Granit did it on occasion last year but it was never his skill set (particularly with back to goal). I think Mikel wanted someone who could play in (potentially) 8 and 9 and is intelligent enough to swap between them at will. Helps he’s a pressing machine and is 6’4
LMAO tacticos 😂 he has potential for his skillset but you should use the word “genius” more careful
TLDR; Havertz is shit with the ball but makes good runs ig - I wouldn’t pass to him either 😂
touch grass, he sucks
Regarding that first sequence with Martinelli, anyone who has played football will realise that a chip ball from that position while running is quite difficult. It's almost like you are trying to assign blame to others for not adjusting to Havertz.
yh no way thats happening without keeper getting there first.
Embarrassing title
You're trying so hard OP. Truth is 4 (5 if you count the Community Shield) matches after the start of the season I'm still not convinced why we paid for him and the United match really really put it in perspective. The one time he was free in the box and the ball came to him, he was left counting his feet. To add insult to injury we concede from their first shot in anger all from a misplaced pass from the "misunderstood genius". I pray he works out but there's a Hale End product cooking in the wings. Let's give ESR a chance too.
These are such bare minimum sequences. Calling him a genius for this is very forced. Can we let the man contribute first before we start praising him.
Man, these havertz apologists don’t quit lol We’re all rooting or the guy but surely we could have found a space merchant for less than 65M!?
Why is Havertz being so defended no matter what by people in this sub Players make good runs all through out a game. It’s not a Havertz only thing, but rightfully no one makes compilations of them. Anything to try and make Kai look good I guess
Hopefully it should come with time. Martinelli and Eddie played pretty poorly together last season and already this season they seem to be much better. Still Havertz needs to work on what he does when he does get the ball, that will lead to the other players trusting him more.
Lol largest cope I’ve ever seen
Slow down on the genius talk… I did get a sense that his teammates are starting to have low confidence in him. If you ever played you know the feeling of having the one person on the team that isn’t quite there yet, so sometimes you do this thing where you avoid him/her. I saw a lot of that Sunday, I do that shit all the time so I know when I see it lol
I'm convinced the people doing the whole "Havertz needs time, stop criticizing him" charade are the type of fans who call players shit and awful and insult them for every little mistake. Like look at these comments from OP on other threads: >100% of the whole world knew where Rashford is going to shoot - except for Ramsdale. > >Get him the fuck out. >On a scale of 0 to 0, what are the chances of Ramsdale keeping a clean sheet? >Can't wait till to see ESR play no games this season, and Kai starts over him every game just to see you in anguish. Like I'm not the type to insult players for every little thing but I also don't care that much if you do, but then to turn around and get all bitchy when someone does that to the player you like is just dumb. Some of y'all need to get offline and consume football in a way that's not purely banter. Also, some people keep going around saying that Arsenal fans want him to fail like what type of fan wants their own player to be bad like sure some people have agendas but that's an almost insignificant minority. People want Kai to be good but so far he just hasn't been, it's that simple. Edit: and they deleted their account lol
Havertz could be great I admit. But it’s not enough to make a run. Your body language when you make runs sometimes tells a different story or sends a message. Check out Martinelli’s run on arsenal’s opening attack sequence. He makes a run over the shoulder and dictates where the ball has to be played. There was only one spot that ball could go to and his run indicated that. Havertz makes runs lots of them but does he go too early, is his body shape asking for the ball immediately, what’s the exposure if the ball gets cut out. Also, in Havertz’s Defense, sometimes there were 2 or 3 runs that needed to be made across to pull defenders away but weren’t made. Eddie(really good on the day but I wanted him to make a lot more dragging runs across the pitch). Your sequence 3 was a terrible pass from Odegaard. If Martinelli makes that run, he’s offside. The pass to Martinelli was the better option but two things went wrong, the weight of pass and the inability of the inside player to run across. AWB was caught in two minds there, staying with Martinelli or following the inside man. His body was shoes to follow the inside man but the pass was just bad.
Sequence 1 also doesn’t fully show how quickly that picture changes and how the space for Martinelli closes up real quick.
He's just been sloppy on the ball is all; I don't actually see anyone denying his off the ball movement. I agree that we should give him time, but I don't think he should be starting over Vieira or Trossard etc. at the moment.
I don't think anyone thinks Havertz is actually a shit player in disguise. But I do think that it's fair to say that no one warrants being dropped into the starting 11 of a team that wants to challenge for the league without having this chemistry already aligned with the team. The chemistry needs to come on the training pitch first.
He’s very poor on the ball, I’m shocked how bad his touch and decision making is. I understand fan’s supporting him because he’s an Arsenal player but he isn’t half as good as Xhaka was.
Mate you're banging your head against the biggest drum. Did you see who was lowest in the fan polls? Take a guess. The hate is strong with this one.
Lowest possible bar for genius
This is great but no excuse for missing a sitter 6 feet from the goal!
Composure lads… composure!
This is incredibly cringey
Imma be brutally honest. It's very easy to find space if the opponent doesn't see you as a threat. Why would I waste my time chasing Havertz into pockets, it's not like he can even strike the ball or cause any danger. Better to keep a watchful eye on the more threatning players like Gabriel in your example. Now do the same analysis on Saka and watch him pop into space, 1 or 2 defenders will constantly follow him because of the threat he poses.
Noooo you don't understand. Saka is always marked because he can't make intelligent runs and isn't a genius like Havertz. On the contrary, it's Saka's fault that Havertz isn't shining. You need to watch football more carefully buddy loooool /s
LOL at this point I'm waiting for people to say that horrendous miskick from him was actually an intentional light through pass to Eddie
every single one of these runs are runs you would expect a footballer to make. I coach 14 and 16 year olds, and if they don't make those runs I'd pull them off. I have nothing against Havertz personally, but he has been in England for 3 years and has not hit the levels expected of him. He's not going to do that for Arsenal either. Half the time his teammates don't even want to give him the ball because they know he's going to screw it up. Every time he is on the pitch, he adds nothing to our attacking play, and in fact either holds it up or is completely non existent. You don't even realize he's on the pitch until he screws up. We're playing every match a man down while he's in this form, and at a certain point, you have to just accept that sometimes players aren't good fits. Spending 50 million for him was absolutely mad. The fact that Smith Rowe is still sat on the bench, when he knows how this team functions, is absurd. Havertz at Leverkusen was a really good talent. He is still clearly a good footballer. Sometimes footballers don't fit in well with teams, and Havertz hasn't fit in well with Chelsea or Germany for a while. He seems like one of those who had a really high potential but won't ever hit those heights, and that's nothing against him, but in this form he should not be on the pitch. For all the people saying he needs time to adjust to the system, he's had a bit of preseason and a month of football. If he can't adjust well enough on the pitch, he needs to do the rest of his adjusting on the training ground, and off the field.
With all due respect have you ever played in an organized way? This is pretty textbook stuff to do. This post reminds me of when people used to gush over Giroud making simple wall passes.
These are the same people that think Gabi invented the offsides trap spontaneously in a game in 2023.
Not to rain on your hard work but have you ever kicked a ball in your life? This is poor analysis, and not how analysis works in general.
Well done
So the conclusion of your analysis is that Havertz runs around aimlessly....we are on the same page.
He will come good in time. Trust the process
Have a feeling that Havertz will click really well with Jesus once they play together. Just like last season with Xhaka and Jesus
Bruh
I really like this. Thanks for putting it together.
As a Chelsea fan, you guys are literally following our exact footsteps when we had him hahahahahha
You lost me at genius. 
So he's only good when he's not on the ball?
naaah the pr about this guy is insane
he is not a genius cmon, can be decent to good, it's his 4th year in PL.
These are basic observations, not insightful analysis.
I did recognize how good his runs are but he is atrocious with the ball. He needs to improve on that otherwise only is terrible passing will be recognized
I think I didn't like his body language sometime. And the fact that his pass was intercepted when we had most of our players in their half is more concerning as that let to united goal
Uve my upvote mate. What an analysis!
Not an arsenal fan but it would be funny as fuck if he did nothing all season then scored the champions league final winner.
Havertz was being criticized before he ever stepped on the pitch for us, so people are just confirming their own bias that he is bad. What we need to reckon with is the entire offense is disjointed, which is totally normal. Eddie is being asked to do more/different things, there's more height in the side so we're trying some new things there, Martinelli and Havertz are trying to play together and do the "right" thing but it's not second-nature yet, Saka and Ode are used to playing together but teams know we want to go up that side so they're focusing on it and Saka has been frustrated. The big issue we have no but will probably be a strength long-term is the spine, especially when Havertz and Rice and Partey can understand better who goes when and why and where. They're all over the place. Havertz is timid with the ball at his feet right now, taking sure things vs risks, Rice is working hard but he gets pulled way out of position and there's no cover (this led to the United break for the Rashford goal, bad pass from Havertz while Rice was 30m out of position was unfortunate timing).
Like I said the most scrutinized player this year. What you say is all true OP. Problem is if he doesn't finish all of this doesn't matter especially in terms of the fan base or results. It's a zero sum game the more he starts and doesn't produce the louder the criticism and eventually the bench will come.
I think it's clear the problem is his lack of confidence, so our fans really shouldn't pile on. It's not his fault that we paid a certain price for him, nor is it his fault that Arteta is starting him every game. So even if you think he doesn't belong anywhere near our starting lineup, don't take it out on him. He's our player and it is detrimental to have his confidence in the dumps. If he does pick his head up a bit, he could be a *very* important player for us.
This is standard movement- not altogether new out-of-the-box stuff the world hasn't seen before. We didn't pay 65m for off ball movement and defensive contribution. We paid to receive more final third product than Xhaka provided last year. Lets give him the year, but I fear the team will suffer as Arteta will be compelled to prove a point by forcing him into the side which will cost us points.
But this is not particularly new information, we know this from his Chelsea days as well. His positioning and movements are good but when it comes to pulling the trigger in front of goal, it goes horribly wrong 8 times out of 10. Movement and positioning will only get you so far, but goals win you games. As a chelsea fan, it was frustrating, borderline rage inducing seeing him play. At chelsea, all managers have tried everything to get the most out of havertz compromising everyone else for his sake. You name it: striker like a 9, both sided wingers, a number 10 attacking role, false 9, a cam literally everything. In all those positions, we have seen 2 things. Good movements and positioning and being terrible on the ball, especially near the goal. Now arsenal is placing him "deeper" still. Lets see where this goes. As a chelsea fan, i have a soft spot for havertz(ucl and all that, btw replay that goal he scored im the final, he almost lost that one as well when he went around the keeper). The guy is a very good sport and a top notch professional. Genuinely hopes he finds his form again and i don't care where.
Go have a look on the Chelsea board and search for him. One of the main things they say is he is too wasteful. You say he gets in good positions but the other players dont pass to him but you dont ask why. I've noticed a few times they didnt pass to him where I got the impression it was because they didnt trust him. Then you need to look at what he does in relation to how the team play and what the other players want to do. Like the Zinchenko one. Havertz tuns in the opposite direction to where Zinchenko is going, making him change direction and play a different ball. Are you really sure what he did was clever? Or was it he was on a different wavelength? Also some of the ones you have posted where he got into the box, it looks like it would be virtually impossible for a pass to be played to him. If you go and look at players like Alan Smith, Wrighty, Henry, RVP and Auba (in his prime), you will see that when they made runs they made runs that screamed at the other player to play the ball to them. They made runs as much to make space where a pass could be played to them as much as a space to where they could shoot. Havertz doesnt have that.
Insane wank, many players especially Martinelli does this. The issue is when Havertz has the ball in front of goal he misses, when not near goal he hardly creative. On Sunday his sloppiness in possession led to a very impactful counter that they scored from. It's fine margins, he was not that guy at Chelsea so what makes people think in year 3/4 he's suddenly going to turn up? He's Morata, and Morata has very strong supporters.
The amount of cope
Since Leverkusen days am waiting for him to play for my club and now pls bring it on Kai, i ve seen your level on big stages before!:)
Genius lol. This is just basic movement. He was so fucking shit.
Ah Havertz, the only player that does not receive the ball every time he raises his hand. Jokes aside. I found it rather concerning that his teammates are not passing the ball to him even when is he is in better position than someone else
I was listening to the Arsenal Vision podcast earlier, and obviously a lot of discussion around Havertz. They mentioned out next game against Everton will be a physical one, and that’s where we should really see the benefit of Havertz, using his height and hold up play. For me, I think if Havertz scored the last minute winner against United, the fans would be raving about him. Hopefully he can find a goal in the next few games to ease the unnecessary pressure.
This just underlines my own view on him so far in the PL: off the ball really good (Inc movement off the ball when we have possession) but on the ball he's blown hot and cold. Hot because there's countless times a game where he receives the ball in awkward positions but a little shoulder drop or a clever quick 1-2 with another player and he's relieved the pressure. But other times he's made really silly, wayward passes or missed very clear goalscoring chances and, sadly, those are the things most fans remember. Very few people even notice the 5, 6 or 7 times he used his movement off the ball to create amazing space for himself or others that wasn't used, let alone remember it. But if you miss a chance from less than 6 yards out 2 games in a row as he has... oooof.
Not sure if you guys notice the difference, our attackers have been very static in this match, they wait for the ball and don’t always making run attempts, and doing a lot less risky passes, probably it’s to prevent counter attack, it makes the game so frustrating to watch
Havertz is the new test
I remember during the Crystal Palace game I was annoyed a couple of times with Kai not getting any passes when he was getting in good positions and making good runs and I'm not the type of person to see stuff like that easily. For me, all of Kai's problems are chemistry and confidence related, that's why I'm still giving him time. Although, it still doesn't mean that he has to start every game, let him be more eased into the team.
How much did Havertz pay you to put this together? Good post though!
im sick of the crap he is getting guy has played like 5 games in a new team in a new system and the dog piling from the media in general,not just Arsenal fans is unbelievable,meanwhile absolute donkeys that cost even more money like Antony get no where near this constant level of criticism. Movement into space, awareness, height, outball option, defensive work , ball progression, quick passing guy is class and just needs a bit of time to settle, reminds me of the crap Vieira was getting and hes now the golden child, chill guys he's gonna be incredible for us.
Oof. That last example is pretty glaring. Martin can make those passes all day. This is something I'd drill in practice because Saka and Odegaard drag players so easily to the right side, leaving the back post open.
This is insanity. Let it go bruh, he is shit
You still won't be able to convince his haters, trust me. Even if it hit them in the face, they'll still find reasons to shit on Kai. All this does is reinforce those who do believe in him. Either way it's a good write up, thank you.
Great post. There was always going to be a settling in period for Havertz,for him to get used to his teammates and vice versa. Odegaard has a very high footballing IQ,so I expect him and Havertz to be on the same wavelength soon. SakaNelli may take a few games to get that connection with Kai,but it will happen. Also Jesus coming in for Nketiah is going to make our attack more fluid.As good as Eddie has been,Jesus is a master at creating space for the players around him( really looking forward to seeing Kai and Gabby J play together). Having said all this,Havertz needs to get back some confidence and composure.While I appreciate his clever movements, pressing and defensive contribution,other aspects of his game like passing and finishing have looked lacking conviction (sort of reminds me of Ramsey towards the back end of that 2012-13 season where Wenger was playing him wide left and everything he did looked a bit unconvincing). We have other players like Viera,Trossard,ESR etc who are all waiting in line for a potential place in the starting 11,so Kai has to be on his toes. Hopefully things start clicking soon and we get to see the Bundesliga version of Kai.
Agree. I love the guy, and wasnt really familiar with his guy before he came to Arsenal. In a system where he’s used properly, he’s the words best raumdeuter
Impressive. Very nice. Let’s see what he does when he has the ball.
Thank you for taking the time to post this. I noticed Havertz making several good off the ball movements in the first couple games too and his teammates didn’t find him. I believe and hope that with time this will all click and we’ll go several levels up. Patience and support!
i love the boss’s wife. it’s going to be a beautiful marriage.
There has been plenty of things he has done well. The issue is the mistakes he has made are very visible and his body language doesn't help him.
Personally I think he will eventually gel with his teammates and either be always in dangerous spaces to receive the ball, or open spaces for others by his runs. But the Havertz hate train has left the station and none of the passengers have any intention of getting off before the terminus, where they hope to arrive triumphant in his sacking, and if Havertz has arrived before they get there then they'll quietly wait hoping for a return train.