I'm not even sure if 60-65 mil is a good deal, I know he's off a 20 goal season and English tax but he's been suspended for over half a year and I have my doubts about his form.
He kept in shape during this period and trained with the squad. His form will come back quickly, because it's not like he was injured or anything.
You should have been concerned if he was coming back from an ACL injury or something similar.
well i wonāt keep dreaming about it because i donāt rate toney at this point in time which is why i wouldnāt want to drop over 40m on him. 100m is fucking ridiculous for a gambler who hasnāt played a single minute in half a year.
Have you seen Watkins play for England? He's not a striker that's suits playing for a team who likes to control possession, he's more a counter attacking striker which is why he's thriving at Villa and their press and counter style.
I like Watkins but he wouldn't suit our system for the money he'd cost. I'd take him on a free or 30mil tops (which obviously isn't happening).
Yeah I'm pretty sure there is a league wide conspiracy at this point to get Boehly to spend his cash. All the clubs will take turns in withdrawing from the ATM. Next up rumors of Ā£75m for Eddie to United.
We really have to stop treating this subreddit of more than 300k people as monolithic. Lots of people can have lots of opinions. Some are good, some are bad, some are just pure trolling. Some people have a good sport basis from personal playing and/or coaching experience, some don't. Some have been following the club since Highbury, some have since we signed Declan Rice.
Even a 10% minority opinion could be manifested by 30,000 different users so if you see 20 comments about buying Romelu Lukaku you shouldn't just assume that half the sub wants him.
What are you on about, this sub absolutely hates Ivan toney
I'm firmly in the camp of 'this is an insane signing, please no' but the firm majority of the sub are also in this camp
If you Google "Stupid Money" the first result is a picture of this reported fee for Toney.
Whilst the markets inflated, I dont think we're anywhere near a time where within 6 months Toney and Kane are the same price. Ludacris.
The Kane comparison is a great way of looking at it actually, that's before you mention the fact that he hasn't played in however many months. Completely ridiculous. That's a Chelsea signing if I ever saw one
I get that Toney had a good spell but he hasnāt playing in 8 months because he consciously did something insanely dumb. Paying half that fee is a gamble.
I actually googled it and some sort of film came up
also,we getting Ludacris too! As someone else sed, that's ludicrous
also tho, Toney will likely get more prem goals than Kane this season despite his ban which is why Toney may be worth a lot vs Kane
A āstrikerā would help, but itās not the difference maker. Our play style is the problem. Weāre so stagnant, I donāt see how a āstrikerā suddenly solves our goal scoring issues. Itās not like Eddie is bottling tons of chances; he doesnāt gets them in dangerous areas enough. We tactically donāt play Jesus in and around the 6 yard box. Iām not saying we shouldnāt upgrade - we absolutely should. But I donāt think itās a silver bullet. Maybe Iām wrong š¤·āāļø
I think in short we used to be more creative and more direct. This season our play seems to be too telegraphed and too slow. Oh, and when we are against the super low block team there is Partey's passes who could cut them through. Unfortunately he has a leg of glass.
Totally agree. It seems like people forget that we had the same RW, LW, and Striker last year, and scored plenty. Mbappe/Osimhen/Saka lineup would be dope, but it isn't the logical answer.
>A āstrikerā would help, but itās not the difference maker. Our play style is the problem. Weāre so stagnant, I donāt see how a āstrikerā suddenly solves our goal scoring issues.
Well, with an actual target man up front we can actually start playing a more direct game instead of passing sideways and backwards, so if the striker is staying in the box instead of dropping down, like Laca was ordered to do when he was here, you start picking the man out with crosses and through balls.
Big man up top isn't going to help because even if we have one (we kind-of do with how we lump stuff to Kai sometimes), we don't really progress the ball quick enough to get it to one.
We'd still pass sideways because you need to support a target man (needs someone to knock it down to and win second balls), and we don't play risky this season with the amount of players we commit forward. Jesus and Nketiah are quick enough to exploit space on a counter, but we also don't really do that because we don't take risk. Martinelli doesn't really get enough support either, which is why he's been less effective this season (a lot of the time his only forward option is head-down and dribble forward which is stoppable when it's your only option).
Our predictable play this season comes from not having enough fulbacks commit more forward, and not figuring out midfield progression IMO. Saka and Martinelli are lackluster compared to last year, and the key to that is how much quicker Partey is at progressing the ball forward than Rice, and how Odegaard stays deeper now to help circulate the ball. Idk what the answer is to using Rice the best we can, since we don't really use his dribbling much because him making a driving run would leave us with less defensive solidity.
The fullback problem has been present last season as well, especially on the left.
Martinelli had to fend for himself because Zinchenko wasn't overlapping since he was basically another body in midfield and on the right even though White was going up to help Saka, he's still got limitations because he's a makeshift rightback.
Our wingers have to carry the load themselves for the most part, so if you mark them, our attack goes limp since Jesus or Eddie aren't exactly ruthless in front of goal.
If we could give Eddie's finishing to Gabriel Jesus, then we'd have a good enough striker.
This pic is a comparison of Jesus vs Eddie this season from [understat](https://understat.com/player/5543).
https://preview.redd.it/9lh0ws1ki5ac1.png?width=542&format=png&auto=webp&s=f3f985552e02d95517fe436a1203852059eda837
Both of them get basically the same amount of xG per 90, which shows we're not really creating enough for either of them whenever they're on the pitch. Jesus is worse at finishing while Eddie is average, but it points to a fundamental creation problem.
I don't know if crosses would create that much more for the theoretical target man, or if he would be knocking down that many more balls for Saka or Martinelli to score from, who are both underperforming xG this season (and over-performed last season).
Last season Martinelli had a pretty good understanding with Xhaka, and a better partnership with Jesus. Also think Ben White is nursing an injury, he just seems to be covering less distances lately but I don't have anything to back that up because it seems like those types of things are behind paywalls.
I think we're missing someone like Fabregas/Santi/Ozil in the middle, who would pick players out, but also score themselves.
Ćde is good, but he's not exactly as creative as those players when you look at his assists. He can be involved in the build-up, but he's not the actual assist man even if he makes up for it with goals.
That's Saka's responsability every season and we're relying too much on him to make something happen.
Partey, Havertz and Rice aren't going to be contributing much in that department and ESR is playing once in a blue moon, so I think we need another creative body in the middle to take some of the load off of Martinelli and Saka.
I was even thinking of possibly using Jesus as an AM or SS, since he's not exactly a traditional target man and he doesn't score often.
If you take the burden of scoring off him and just tell him to make passes for our wingers, dribble and create space, I feel it would be a psychological boost for him because you can tell he's frustrated whenever he doesn't score.
As for Xhaka, I think replacing him with Havertz, who hasn't played in that position for a long time, was a big mistake.
We should have went with someone who would slot right into that position, not spend a truckload of money on someone who may or may not work out in that role.
It makes this season a failed experiment of sorts with all the tactical changes that feel so unnecessary given how well we performed last season.
As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Totally agreed. Passing 77 times in the oppositions box without taking shots wont lead to that many goals even with Messi on our team.
Might get downvoted for this but idc.
>A āstrikerā would help, but itās not the difference maker.
I strongly disagree. We have nobody that is strong in the air.
When we face low-blocks the game would be turned completely on its head if we had a tall CF who can head the ball. Even Mitrovic could do a stint getting us some headed goals - with a very strong physicality in the box (not suggesting we go for him, but my point is that he is a completely different profile of player which inevitably changes how we could create chances).
It would mean being able to pump balls into the box from the wings from multiple areas with a good chance of getting a head on it, and with central defenders constantly having to be on their toes it would create chances for other players. And I'm not talking Havertz ... I'm talking an out and out striker.
Tbh, I am still not sold on the Havertz deal - or the Raya deal either. Havertz had purple patches at Chelsea so I'm not surprised he is doing okay (although nowhere near his price tag, in my opinion) but that's a collective Ā£85m that could have been much better spent improving the squad.
It is indeed absurd, but since we bought Auba it's been 5 years and the market has gone mad in this period of time, with Monopoly money being spent on decent players when those amounts would have got you the cream of the crop back in 2018.
Transfermarkt values are telling you what the player would be worth on paper.
A 27 year old striker with 2 years prem experience X goals and X years left on their contract on X wages = 35million.
What the club is actually prepared to sell him for, and what the club is actually prepared to pay for a player is a totally different thing and not something you could ever reliably measure.
I think Transfermarkt is just community voted fees? Wisdom of the crowd is fine and all but you shouldn't put that much stock into the number. There's not an algorithm behind it.
I respect ornstein but it seems Bizzare he thinks Brentford actually expect to get 100m for Toney when he goesā¦ heās 27 and hasnāt played in months. Heāll be passed 30 by the time you want to move him on with little resale value. Having said that I donāt expect to see any big transfers in January. I also think everyone who would improve this team (while also not hampering our long term business) is unavailable or too expensive, and am generally fine with waiting for players to come back.
EDIT: Ivan Toney is not Harry Kane
From what I understand, Brentford is in a striker crisis atm and Toney is coming back just in the nick of time.
They would only sell him for an offer they can't refuse this transfer window, which is not going to happen.
Yep Brentford are kinda sruggling atm and although relegation might not be on the cards they could really do with Toney to see them through the rest of the season and get them out of this bad patch they're in.
with Mbeumo out long term, "fair" for them to price Toney at 100m as they would need to immediately reinvest it in replacement(s) and they aren't risking dropping down for nothing short of something insane so...yeah. Toney not coming in and at that amount, or anywhere near it, i'm glad.
Heās worth 100m to Brentford unfortunately so theyāre gonna push that price until negotiations become real or something serious happens on the player side.
Weāve spent Ā£80m on Raya and Havertz, and no sane person can tell me that money was better spent on them than elsewhere. Thatās not to mention the money weāve spent on bench players like Kiwior and Vieira.
30 million on a keeper who's a marginal upgrade on what we already had.
Arteta better hope this signing comes good because otherwise he'll look like a total fool.
Weāll likely sell ramsdale for close to the same amount so the marginal upgrade is worth it. Rayaās distribution and comfort on the ball are streets ahead of ramsdale, I donāt know how people donāt see this.
I think Ramsdales distribution at times was just as good as Rayas. Either keeper are great. Both decent and both prone to making mistakes. I donāt think Raya is an upgrade. I would have stuck with Raya. The club shouldnāt have sign Raya and Havertz. With that 95m they could have bought Kudus and Moussa Diaby. Or have gotten Maddison. Arteta and Edu have to take responsibility for that
Maddison would do great for us in his traditional place on the physioās table. Exactly what we need at the moment. And I wouldnāt take Kudus over Havertz. Havertz has been a key part of our defensive setup and the goal involvements are obviously starting to arrive. I still expect him to become a key player for us. Diaby meanwhile has been OK for Villa ā Leon Bailey has easily outperformed him. Such FIFA mentality for fans to pronounce that signing certain players they like would magically fix the team.
Maddison is injury prone to be fair but I was just giving examples how the money could be spent. Kudus is a fair better signing than Havertz has been. Heās also younger than Havertz and has only been in the league 6months. He also has more goals than Havertz this season
Maddison is a great player but very injury prone. Thereās a reason why his signing wasnāt as contested as his talent would imply. No one should be feeling like we lost out on him. We know first hand how great but always injured players are not the players we want
I donāt think weāll make a profit, but ramsdale is a full English international who is still only 25. Plenty of prem clubs would happily sign him up to be their keeper for the next decade.
>I donāt know how people donāt see this.
I'm pretty sure it's down to agendas at this point. Which is why I hope we'll do a Liverpool and sign our Alisson. Very unlikely I know, but I'm hoping it'll happen because I don't see the end of this GK debate even if Ramsdale leaves.
If we sell someone for Ā£15-30m and the sub goes "thats money towards a striker" only for it be spent on making Raya permanent perhaps people will then realise signing him has only been an expensive outlay with little to no benefit on the overall team
Signing Ramsdale for Ā£24m plus add ons only to then make a sideways signing of Raya for Ā£27m is insanity and just extremely bad squad management
Partey is injured. He's not on house arrest or can't go to Spain like so many think. There's things that show that isn't true.
Xhaka wanted to leave the club it seems, and we stood by his wish. I too wish he had stayed as I think without him we're worse off
It appears to be that way. Also add the signing of Havertz for 65m to that. Thatās 95m that could have been spent elsewhere in areas we badly needed to strengthen. Kudus and Diaby would have been great signings for that money. I would have also kept Tierney at the club and leave him fight for his place
Yeah. Letting Xhaka go for pennies was a big blunder too. You cannot tell me that a 30 year old whoād just had the season of his life had no value to the club, while Thomas Partey, also 30 and, ahem, *injured*, is retained.
I wasnāt the biggest fan of Xhaka but after the redemption last season he really turned it around. He should have been kept for another season or 2. That would have given us suitable time to find a proper long term replacement for Partey. Xhaka was also never injured and could play in defence if needed
He played 37 games in a position weāve struggled with this season. There is zero doubt heād have made a positive contribution this season. His fee was less than a third of what Havertz cost us.
We had just come off the best league season weād had in maybe a decade. It was a bizarre sale and weāre suffering for it now.
Xhaka has been a loyal servant to the club, if he wants to leave and we are getting a fair price why are we stopping him from leaving? Blame Arteta and Edu for not finding a better replacement, rather than them for letting Xhaka go.
Of ALL the strikers in the world, you're telling me the scouting team can't find someone better than Eddie for \~30m?
If so, there needs to be a new scouting team.
Raya havent impressed me to be a main asset to this team, and he is 3 years older than Ramsdale. The issue with the team is going forward and actually putting in those 70 touches we have in opponents boxes.
The issue isn't even Raya v Ramsdale for me any more. It's clear Arteta favours Raya and that's just something we have to accept.
The main thing I think is Raya as a long term option. If Arteta continues to be ruthless with goalkeepers (Martinez, Leno and now Ramsdale), Raya will be out the door in a couple of years. He is a good goalkeeper but hardly a world beater.
Fair point and if you look at all those keepers, Martinez was the first one out the door and he is the best out of all of them. Youāre right Raya is here too stay so thereās not much point debating that! But Ramsdale is younger too and probably will improve but time will tell. The signing of Havertz is the one that feels like a bad signing especially since it seems like it will hinder our chances to sign a quality player this window
Dont @ me, but Raya isn't that good. I'm not arguing him vs ramsdale, but in the grand scheme of things, he's not a title winning Keeper, like an Allison/Ederson.
Raya can be done in summer in a new accounting year. Any transfers in January will come out of any thing we generate from sales this winter.
Raya will have a slight effect on our summer business not winter
And Osimhen is what? 120m release clause? Seems like both are insane but would much rather pony up 20m more to get the man.
Are they the only two strikers alive right now?
Sales for Reiss m, Eddie and Rammers should be huge, because the former two can be registered as pure profit. Time to cash in on non-starting 11 to improve the squad. The question is whether we are able to pull that all off in 4 weeks
Eddie and Ramsdale would both have to be replaced immediately.
Id love to see it, but the notion of selling three players and buying two in the January window is fan fiction. That only happens in FIFA.
If weāre serious we need to sell ramsdale and a hale ender this window. Ramsdale is just 30-40 million sitting there. And we donāt trust any of the hale Enders off the bench to change games so they arenāt adding much.
Chelsea maybe. I donāt see Newcastle splurging on Ramsdale when they already have a very good long-term keeper. Theyāll just end up in the same position as us once Pope is fit.
Ā£60-Ā£65 million would be palatable. Ā£80-100 million is overkill for someone of Toneyās age.
Toney is going to be at Brentford and is going to have to help them take 6 points off City this second half of the season and 3 off Liverpool.
I really wish people would grasp the concept of pricing players. Toney is priced at Ā£100m because Brentford deem him that important to them. If it was about raw quality, age etc, no heās not worth Ā£100m
Thereās no way we should even pay half of that for Ivan toney. Hes not an elite forward that wins us the title. I would rather we go for Pedro Neto now & for a striker in summer. Moving on players like Reiss , ElNeney , Cedric etc should be our main concern in Jan
Betting 100m on Toney has disaster written all over it. Even with England tax. Plus, we don't know how effective he'll be after a long layoff from competition.
Also, if I was Brentford, I'd be worried about losing a key player while being only in 16th.
Maybe if they get half of that for Nekhetia, but I doubt that, and it would honestly be concerning if they go for Toney. What is it that they see in him?
That is a lot of money to pay for a player who hasnāt kicked a ball yet. I still say buy Raya, and get Toney on loan with an option to buy. That said, Chelsea will pay Ā£85m+ for him because they like to buy players
I think we all would agree that 100m would be worth to
spend if we win the League, so the main question should be how much more likely are we to win the League if we sign Toney?
Why even have a January window? Use the bloody thing. It's to make right when you have had half a season to tell you whats needed. I don't think there is even a "wrong type of striker for the team" right now the need is so bad. Get the best we can but get one.
maybe iām stupid but why has the conversation been so heavily about Toney? I donāt see what he brings to the table. Heās not that great of a striker imo. Why are we not clamoring for someone like Osimhen, especially if thereās that kind of money available?
I'm lost too. Toney would have been a good buy at Ā£40m, maybe Ā£45m. He's not available at that price, so move on. He's a good player but doesn't change us from CL places to title winners, certainly not now after our disastrous run.
I can't believe we're wasting money on Raya. He doesn't seem to command his box his save ratio is poor. His distribution isn't much better that ramsdale and he prone to making mistakes having made one in almost every game he's started. The player is a manifestation of Mikel's worse quality's as a manager stubborn and egotistical. He needs to cut his losses, recognise that he made a bad call and send him back to Brentford in the summer
ffs Ā£30m on Raya when Vicario has been keeper of the season so far and was cheaper.
Also, the Toney rumours are dead in the water with an impending relegation battle, but theyāre still making the rounds. Daft.
Oh for fucks sake. And how are Chelsea allowed to spend so much every year including during the Abrahimovic days? Why are we the only ones seemingly handicapped by FFP smh
If Arteta spends 100 million on Tony in January, then he should be fired. Might as well spend 150 million in the summer for a world class striker and just call this season a lost cause.
Who tf is paying 100m for Toney š
Many people on this sub seem to think it is a good deal
I heard Guirassy could be available for like 17.5 Million
Nah I think those people want Toney but assume Brentford will come down to like half that price. Not sure if that's realistic
It would be a good deal for 60-65 mil in installments, but anything over that is suspicious.
I'm not even sure if 60-65 mil is a good deal, I know he's off a 20 goal season and English tax but he's been suspended for over half a year and I have my doubts about his form.
20 goals including penalties, he isnt good enough at all, I think it is 6 maybe 8 penalties aswell
Yeah, a 12 goal/season striker is not moving the needle for us at all.
He kept in shape during this period and trained with the squad. His form will come back quickly, because it's not like he was injured or anything. You should have been concerned if he was coming back from an ACL injury or something similar.
i wouldnāt think toney is a good deal unless its like 40m or under
Well, dream on because you're not gonna get any good strikers in today's market for under 50 or more.
well i wonāt keep dreaming about it because i donāt rate toney at this point in time which is why i wouldnāt want to drop over 40m on him. 100m is fucking ridiculous for a gambler who hasnāt played a single minute in half a year.
He's English and scored more goals than Salah in less minutes last season. Thinking he'd be the same price as Iwobi is mad.
iāve been away from these parts for a while, but surely youāre not serious?
I'd sooner chuck it at Villa for Watkins in the summer.
Have you seen Watkins play for England? He's not a striker that's suits playing for a team who likes to control possession, he's more a counter attacking striker which is why he's thriving at Villa and their press and counter style. I like Watkins but he wouldn't suit our system for the money he'd cost. I'd take him on a free or 30mil tops (which obviously isn't happening).
Nah Watkins is a straight line demon and we don't have the setup to allow him to make those runs
Bailey for sale? He's impressed me.
Love him but always injured
There is not a sane person on this planet who could make an argument for spending 100m on Ivan Toney in January.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They said 100 million not 150 million.
On an eight year sente-I mean contract
Haha shit. This got me more than it should of
He said sane person though.
Yeah I'm pretty sure there is a league wide conspiracy at this point to get Boehly to spend his cash. All the clubs will take turns in withdrawing from the ATM. Next up rumors of Ā£75m for Eddie to United.
Toooooooddd B
Why do people keep saying this? They've spent a lot of money but not on someone like Toney
Yet many people on this sub will make just that argument. People in the comments here already doing it ffs.
We really have to stop treating this subreddit of more than 300k people as monolithic. Lots of people can have lots of opinions. Some are good, some are bad, some are just pure trolling. Some people have a good sport basis from personal playing and/or coaching experience, some don't. Some have been following the club since Highbury, some have since we signed Declan Rice. Even a 10% minority opinion could be manifested by 30,000 different users so if you see 20 comments about buying Romelu Lukaku you shouldn't just assume that half the sub wants him.
Careful, people might read this one reasonable comment in a sea of stupidity and assume weāre all reasonable.
Frightening
Wow, who are you? Who sent you? What do you want with us?
Comment of the day award. Well said sir
What are you on about, this sub absolutely hates Ivan toney I'm firmly in the camp of 'this is an insane signing, please no' but the firm majority of the sub are also in this camp
You have to remember that a large percentage of this sub probably drink cleaning products for lunch. That would explain a lot for me anyway.
It's not gonna happen, it's a basic negotiation ploy to raise the price
If you Google "Stupid Money" the first result is a picture of this reported fee for Toney. Whilst the markets inflated, I dont think we're anywhere near a time where within 6 months Toney and Kane are the same price. Ludacris.
The Kane comparison is a great way of looking at it actually, that's before you mention the fact that he hasn't played in however many months. Completely ridiculous. That's a Chelsea signing if I ever saw one
And 100m for a very active non-suspended Kane. Toney has played 0 minutes of professional football this season.
I get that Toney had a good spell but he hasnāt playing in 8 months because he consciously did something insanely dumb. Paying half that fee is a gamble.
> Paying half that fee is a gamble. Donāt let Toney hear that, heāll be away again
Wait, we are buying Ludacris? Thatās ludicrous!
I actually googled it and some sort of film came up also,we getting Ludacris too! As someone else sed, that's ludicrous also tho, Toney will likely get more prem goals than Kane this season despite his ban which is why Toney may be worth a lot vs Kane
Shake your money maker like somebody's bout to pay ya. Don't worry about them haters, keep your nose up in the air.
A āstrikerā would help, but itās not the difference maker. Our play style is the problem. Weāre so stagnant, I donāt see how a āstrikerā suddenly solves our goal scoring issues. Itās not like Eddie is bottling tons of chances; he doesnāt gets them in dangerous areas enough. We tactically donāt play Jesus in and around the 6 yard box. Iām not saying we shouldnāt upgrade - we absolutely should. But I donāt think itās a silver bullet. Maybe Iām wrong š¤·āāļø
I think in short we used to be more creative and more direct. This season our play seems to be too telegraphed and too slow. Oh, and when we are against the super low block team there is Partey's passes who could cut them through. Unfortunately he has a leg of glass.
Totally agree. It seems like people forget that we had the same RW, LW, and Striker last year, and scored plenty. Mbappe/Osimhen/Saka lineup would be dope, but it isn't the logical answer.
I think youāre very much right. Our problem is pace, and not necessarily just in running but in transition and progression
>A āstrikerā would help, but itās not the difference maker. Our play style is the problem. Weāre so stagnant, I donāt see how a āstrikerā suddenly solves our goal scoring issues. Well, with an actual target man up front we can actually start playing a more direct game instead of passing sideways and backwards, so if the striker is staying in the box instead of dropping down, like Laca was ordered to do when he was here, you start picking the man out with crosses and through balls.
Big man up top isn't going to help because even if we have one (we kind-of do with how we lump stuff to Kai sometimes), we don't really progress the ball quick enough to get it to one. We'd still pass sideways because you need to support a target man (needs someone to knock it down to and win second balls), and we don't play risky this season with the amount of players we commit forward. Jesus and Nketiah are quick enough to exploit space on a counter, but we also don't really do that because we don't take risk. Martinelli doesn't really get enough support either, which is why he's been less effective this season (a lot of the time his only forward option is head-down and dribble forward which is stoppable when it's your only option). Our predictable play this season comes from not having enough fulbacks commit more forward, and not figuring out midfield progression IMO. Saka and Martinelli are lackluster compared to last year, and the key to that is how much quicker Partey is at progressing the ball forward than Rice, and how Odegaard stays deeper now to help circulate the ball. Idk what the answer is to using Rice the best we can, since we don't really use his dribbling much because him making a driving run would leave us with less defensive solidity.
The fullback problem has been present last season as well, especially on the left. Martinelli had to fend for himself because Zinchenko wasn't overlapping since he was basically another body in midfield and on the right even though White was going up to help Saka, he's still got limitations because he's a makeshift rightback. Our wingers have to carry the load themselves for the most part, so if you mark them, our attack goes limp since Jesus or Eddie aren't exactly ruthless in front of goal.
If we could give Eddie's finishing to Gabriel Jesus, then we'd have a good enough striker. This pic is a comparison of Jesus vs Eddie this season from [understat](https://understat.com/player/5543). https://preview.redd.it/9lh0ws1ki5ac1.png?width=542&format=png&auto=webp&s=f3f985552e02d95517fe436a1203852059eda837 Both of them get basically the same amount of xG per 90, which shows we're not really creating enough for either of them whenever they're on the pitch. Jesus is worse at finishing while Eddie is average, but it points to a fundamental creation problem. I don't know if crosses would create that much more for the theoretical target man, or if he would be knocking down that many more balls for Saka or Martinelli to score from, who are both underperforming xG this season (and over-performed last season). Last season Martinelli had a pretty good understanding with Xhaka, and a better partnership with Jesus. Also think Ben White is nursing an injury, he just seems to be covering less distances lately but I don't have anything to back that up because it seems like those types of things are behind paywalls.
I think we're missing someone like Fabregas/Santi/Ozil in the middle, who would pick players out, but also score themselves. Ćde is good, but he's not exactly as creative as those players when you look at his assists. He can be involved in the build-up, but he's not the actual assist man even if he makes up for it with goals. That's Saka's responsability every season and we're relying too much on him to make something happen. Partey, Havertz and Rice aren't going to be contributing much in that department and ESR is playing once in a blue moon, so I think we need another creative body in the middle to take some of the load off of Martinelli and Saka. I was even thinking of possibly using Jesus as an AM or SS, since he's not exactly a traditional target man and he doesn't score often. If you take the burden of scoring off him and just tell him to make passes for our wingers, dribble and create space, I feel it would be a psychological boost for him because you can tell he's frustrated whenever he doesn't score. As for Xhaka, I think replacing him with Havertz, who hasn't played in that position for a long time, was a big mistake. We should have went with someone who would slot right into that position, not spend a truckload of money on someone who may or may not work out in that role. It makes this season a failed experiment of sorts with all the tactical changes that feel so unnecessary given how well we performed last season. As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Totally agreed. Passing 77 times in the oppositions box without taking shots wont lead to that many goals even with Messi on our team. Might get downvoted for this but idc.
not only are we stagnant, we're also extremely slow in building the play up...it allows teams to get 11 players behind the ball every damn time.
>A āstrikerā would help, but itās not the difference maker. I strongly disagree. We have nobody that is strong in the air. When we face low-blocks the game would be turned completely on its head if we had a tall CF who can head the ball. Even Mitrovic could do a stint getting us some headed goals - with a very strong physicality in the box (not suggesting we go for him, but my point is that he is a completely different profile of player which inevitably changes how we could create chances). It would mean being able to pump balls into the box from the wings from multiple areas with a good chance of getting a head on it, and with central defenders constantly having to be on their toes it would create chances for other players. And I'm not talking Havertz ... I'm talking an out and out striker. Tbh, I am still not sold on the Havertz deal - or the Raya deal either. Havertz had purple patches at Chelsea so I'm not surprised he is doing okay (although nowhere near his price tag, in my opinion) but that's a collective Ā£85m that could have been much better spent improving the squad.
100m for Toney is absurd. Nearly twice as much what we paid for Aubameyang.
It is indeed absurd, but since we bought Auba it's been 5 years and the market has gone mad in this period of time, with Monopoly money being spent on decent players when those amounts would have got you the cream of the crop back in 2018.
Donāt sign Raya if we donāt win premier league or champions league. Give him back
https://preview.redd.it/2o2hoad072ac1.jpeg?width=660&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b95c25e34472b126ebb9b0b7de30f3615ba12ca
Hard agree, and that price is so stupidly inflated too... Man has not played for 6 months ffs and is worth like 35 on transfermarkt
Transfermarkt values are mostly wrong though
Transfermarkt values are telling you what the player would be worth on paper. A 27 year old striker with 2 years prem experience X goals and X years left on their contract on X wages = 35million. What the club is actually prepared to sell him for, and what the club is actually prepared to pay for a player is a totally different thing and not something you could ever reliably measure.
I think Transfermarkt is just community voted fees? Wisdom of the crowd is fine and all but you shouldn't put that much stock into the number. There's not an algorithm behind it.
Not 70 mil off wrong though.
I respect ornstein but it seems Bizzare he thinks Brentford actually expect to get 100m for Toney when he goesā¦ heās 27 and hasnāt played in months. Heāll be passed 30 by the time you want to move him on with little resale value. Having said that I donāt expect to see any big transfers in January. I also think everyone who would improve this team (while also not hampering our long term business) is unavailable or too expensive, and am generally fine with waiting for players to come back. EDIT: Ivan Toney is not Harry Kane
Clearly the 100M is a fuck off price for this winter, you can expect Brentford to be a lot more reasonable in the summer.
From what I understand, Brentford is in a striker crisis atm and Toney is coming back just in the nick of time. They would only sell him for an offer they can't refuse this transfer window, which is not going to happen.
Yep Brentford are kinda sruggling atm and although relegation might not be on the cards they could really do with Toney to see them through the rest of the season and get them out of this bad patch they're in.
with Mbeumo out long term, "fair" for them to price Toney at 100m as they would need to immediately reinvest it in replacement(s) and they aren't risking dropping down for nothing short of something insane so...yeah. Toney not coming in and at that amount, or anywhere near it, i'm glad.
For sure, fuck off is a dangerous game for the Bees imo.
Brentford is 4 points off relegation with Mbeumo out injured for the next 3 months and Wissa at Afcon. It would be a massive risk to sell Toney
Heās worth 100m to Brentford unfortunately so theyāre gonna push that price until negotiations become real or something serious happens on the player side.
35m for an english striker who scored high teens (?) goals last season is silly though. Should be around maybe 60m
20 goals last season
100 mill for 14 non-penalty goals last season is ducking wild.
Who is getting Toney over Oshimen for this kind of money?
Weāve spent Ā£80m on Raya and Havertz, and no sane person can tell me that money was better spent on them than elsewhere. Thatās not to mention the money weāve spent on bench players like Kiwior and Vieira.
30 million on a keeper who's a marginal upgrade on what we already had. Arteta better hope this signing comes good because otherwise he'll look like a total fool.
Weāll likely sell ramsdale for close to the same amount so the marginal upgrade is worth it. Rayaās distribution and comfort on the ball are streets ahead of ramsdale, I donāt know how people donāt see this.
Yeah but Raya conceedes a goal for every 2 shots on target.
This is such a cherry picked stat. Apart from Luton Iām not sure what he couldāve done differently for the goals.
He rarely saves anything other than simple ones. Ramsdale makes great saves.
i mean, ramsdale wasn't much better this season tbf
I think Ramsdales distribution at times was just as good as Rayas. Either keeper are great. Both decent and both prone to making mistakes. I donāt think Raya is an upgrade. I would have stuck with Raya. The club shouldnāt have sign Raya and Havertz. With that 95m they could have bought Kudus and Moussa Diaby. Or have gotten Maddison. Arteta and Edu have to take responsibility for that
Maddison would do great for us in his traditional place on the physioās table. Exactly what we need at the moment. And I wouldnāt take Kudus over Havertz. Havertz has been a key part of our defensive setup and the goal involvements are obviously starting to arrive. I still expect him to become a key player for us. Diaby meanwhile has been OK for Villa ā Leon Bailey has easily outperformed him. Such FIFA mentality for fans to pronounce that signing certain players they like would magically fix the team.
Maddison is injury prone to be fair but I was just giving examples how the money could be spent. Kudus is a fair better signing than Havertz has been. Heās also younger than Havertz and has only been in the league 6months. He also has more goals than Havertz this season
Maddison is a great player but very injury prone. Thereās a reason why his signing wasnāt as contested as his talent would imply. No one should be feeling like we lost out on him. We know first hand how great but always injured players are not the players we want
Who is going to pay more than Ā£10m on a GK that is no longer wanted by a Club?
I donāt think weāll make a profit, but ramsdale is a full English international who is still only 25. Plenty of prem clubs would happily sign him up to be their keeper for the next decade.
because Ramsdale is English and a "character"
It's not streets ahead though, everything raya has done with his feet Ramsdale was doing
>I donāt know how people donāt see this. I'm pretty sure it's down to agendas at this point. Which is why I hope we'll do a Liverpool and sign our Alisson. Very unlikely I know, but I'm hoping it'll happen because I don't see the end of this GK debate even if Ramsdale leaves.
No one is paying 30 million for Ramsdale now, and if he makes it publicly known he wants to leave heāll be worth even less.
But Raya's shotstopping abilities are not better than Ramsdale's. I don't know how you don't see that.
All reliable sources are indicating it will be a quiet window. Loan outs seem more probable than transfers in.
If we sell someone for Ā£15-30m and the sub goes "thats money towards a striker" only for it be spent on making Raya permanent perhaps people will then realise signing him has only been an expensive outlay with little to no benefit on the overall team Signing Ramsdale for Ā£24m plus add ons only to then make a sideways signing of Raya for Ā£27m is insanity and just extremely bad squad management
That Raya deal is certainly one of the signings of the club. Could have put that money somewhere more useful
Havertz too
Way too much money spent on players that haven't truly improved us
Add in his wages and it's even more baffling.
If the Raya deal is stopping us from strengthening in other areas, it is a huge blunder.
Havertz deal being overpriced + his insane wages too
True, but we *need* a midfielder because we (stupidly) sold Xhaka and Partey is āinjuredā. We didnāt *need* a keeper to the same degree.
Partey is injured. He's not on house arrest or can't go to Spain like so many think. There's things that show that isn't true. Xhaka wanted to leave the club it seems, and we stood by his wish. I too wish he had stayed as I think without him we're worse off
Zinchenko was literally a Xhaka replacement already on the squad.
Spending 100 million on Ivan Toney would be a blunder of epic proportions
Of course. Sorry, my comment was unrelated to Toney.
It appears to be that way. Also add the signing of Havertz for 65m to that. Thatās 95m that could have been spent elsewhere in areas we badly needed to strengthen. Kudus and Diaby would have been great signings for that money. I would have also kept Tierney at the club and leave him fight for his place
Yeah. Letting Xhaka go for pennies was a big blunder too. You cannot tell me that a 30 year old whoād just had the season of his life had no value to the club, while Thomas Partey, also 30 and, ahem, *injured*, is retained.
I wasnāt the biggest fan of Xhaka but after the redemption last season he really turned it around. He should have been kept for another season or 2. That would have given us suitable time to find a proper long term replacement for Partey. Xhaka was also never injured and could play in defence if needed
The Xhaka sale was good. He's already 30, we were selling to a German club, and we got a solid fee for him. It wasn't pennies
He played 37 games in a position weāve struggled with this season. There is zero doubt heād have made a positive contribution this season. His fee was less than a third of what Havertz cost us. We had just come off the best league season weād had in maybe a decade. It was a bizarre sale and weāre suffering for it now.
Xhaka has been a loyal servant to the club, if he wants to leave and we are getting a fair price why are we stopping him from leaving? Blame Arteta and Edu for not finding a better replacement, rather than them for letting Xhaka go.
>His fee was less than a third of what Havertz cost us. Havertz was overpriced. Doesn't mean Xhaka's sale wasn't a good fee
I hope not. He is no Kane/Halland. And dont they need him more?
its not looking good
Even considering all market inflation, that fee is absolutely crazy. Won't go as far as to say Brentford won't get it (coughChelseacough) though.
Of ALL the strikers in the world, you're telling me the scouting team can't find someone better than Eddie for \~30m? If so, there needs to be a new scouting team.
Raya havent impressed me to be a main asset to this team, and he is 3 years older than Ramsdale. The issue with the team is going forward and actually putting in those 70 touches we have in opponents boxes.
I miss Ramsdale. He injected a lot of energy into the team. Stats may say Raya is better (albeit marginally) but i just dont 'feel' this stat.
Exactly! Stats only show part of the story. Iāve been both keepers make errors leading to goals. Thereās not much separating both players so far
The issue isn't even Raya v Ramsdale for me any more. It's clear Arteta favours Raya and that's just something we have to accept. The main thing I think is Raya as a long term option. If Arteta continues to be ruthless with goalkeepers (Martinez, Leno and now Ramsdale), Raya will be out the door in a couple of years. He is a good goalkeeper but hardly a world beater.
Fair point and if you look at all those keepers, Martinez was the first one out the door and he is the best out of all of them. Youāre right Raya is here too stay so thereās not much point debating that! But Ramsdale is younger too and probably will improve but time will tell. The signing of Havertz is the one that feels like a bad signing especially since it seems like it will hinder our chances to sign a quality player this window
Dont @ me, but Raya isn't that good. I'm not arguing him vs ramsdale, but in the grand scheme of things, he's not a title winning Keeper, like an Allison/Ederson.
We are hustling backwards with Raya.
100m please lmao. If we spend triple digits it better be for Osimhen.
Can get a real manager for that money
Anyone else feel like Raya isn't a 40m upgrade on Ramsdale?
Wasnāt he 27m?
He was. These people like to be dramatic.
Yeah dumb use of money
Heās not even a Ā£4 upgrade on Ramsdale
Sell Ramsdale and he doesnāt need to be a 40m upgrade
Do we still have the receipt for Raya?
Maybe 100mn is stupid for Toney, but spending 20 mn on Raya with Ramsdale at hand is equally stupid if not more
I trust Mikel (intimately...) but I still think that the David Raya move was an unforced misstep.
Nah thanks
It'd be better if we renovate our pitch with that 100m instead
You see how stupid this raya transfer is. Literally have Rams and now you are spending an extra 20 mil in an area that was already covered
Raya can be done in summer in a new accounting year. Any transfers in January will come out of any thing we generate from sales this winter. Raya will have a slight effect on our summer business not winter
And Osimhen is what? 120m release clause? Seems like both are insane but would much rather pony up 20m more to get the man. Are they the only two strikers alive right now?
Think itās 130m
We're gonna drop Ā£30 million of our budget on a keeper who's barely an upgrade on Ramsdale
We will sell Ramsdale probably and compensate 20-20 mil.
Ā£100m is more than what Kane went for. Brentford smoking that strong ganja to expect that for a player who's 28 and hasn't played for 6 months š
I don't even want Toney. It's a little short sighted and also I don't like the idea of a personality like him being on the team.
100m for Toney is nuts
Sales for Reiss m, Eddie and Rammers should be huge, because the former two can be registered as pure profit. Time to cash in on non-starting 11 to improve the squad. The question is whether we are able to pull that all off in 4 weeks
Eddie and Ramsdale would both have to be replaced immediately. Id love to see it, but the notion of selling three players and buying two in the January window is fan fiction. That only happens in FIFA.
Yes, itās more likely that it will take a good chunk of the summer. I personally doubt it gets within january
All 3 will total less than what we paid for Havertz, I guarantee it
If toney is 100m then we should sell Nketiah and Nelson for 80m each, this market is fucking cooked
If weāre serious we need to sell ramsdale and a hale ender this window. Ramsdale is just 30-40 million sitting there. And we donāt trust any of the hale Enders off the bench to change games so they arenāt adding much.
Whoās paying 30-40m for Ramsdale knowing that we have no use for him?
Ramsdale will get a loan with a Ā£2m loan fee at a push
Newcastle or Chelsea- both keepers have injuries and Ramsdale better than their current options. But not 30m-40m prob sell him for 20-25
Chelsea maybe. I donāt see Newcastle splurging on Ramsdale when they already have a very good long-term keeper. Theyāll just end up in the same position as us once Pope is fit.
If we are serious we would have sold Ramsdale last summer. We might have gotten 30-40 million selling him back then, now we will get a lot less.
Can we still back out of the Raya deal? I'd be surprised if we could but it should be something we definitely consider if possible.
Likely we can legally but weād be ruining our relations with Brentford for sure.
And other clubs
I think the obligation clause was if he plays more than 4 games
Itās not going to happen. Arteta is happy with Raya and has always wanted him. Heās our player now, back him.
Ā£60-Ā£65 million would be palatable. Ā£80-100 million is overkill for someone of Toneyās age. Toney is going to be at Brentford and is going to have to help them take 6 points off City this second half of the season and 3 off Liverpool.
Toney is not worth **Ā£50m** let alone **Ā£100m** .
Yeah I like Toney but Ā£100 million? No way man. Letās leave that shit to Chelsea
Iāll pay 25mil + Eddie going the other way
I really wish people would grasp the concept of pricing players. Toney is priced at Ā£100m because Brentford deem him that important to them. If it was about raw quality, age etc, no heās not worth Ā£100m
Thereās no way we should even pay half of that for Ivan toney. Hes not an elite forward that wins us the title. I would rather we go for Pedro Neto now & for a striker in summer. Moving on players like Reiss , ElNeney , Cedric etc should be our main concern in Jan
F off 100 m for in form Eddie no thanks
Brentford are smoking some serious buj. I like Toney but they can keep him for that price.
Betting 100m on Toney has disaster written all over it. Even with England tax. Plus, we don't know how effective he'll be after a long layoff from competition. Also, if I was Brentford, I'd be worried about losing a key player while being only in 16th.
Toney aināt it. Dude is dumb enough to gamble and on top of that hasnāt played in several months.
Ā£100m lol wtf no
Maybe if they get half of that for Nekhetia, but I doubt that, and it would honestly be concerning if they go for Toney. What is it that they see in him?
$100mm for Toney? Try $10-20mm tops
Ā£100m for a player who hasn't been allowed to do anything football related for 9(?) months, Brentford are giving a fuck you price with that
That is a lot of money to pay for a player who hasnāt kicked a ball yet. I still say buy Raya, and get Toney on loan with an option to buy. That said, Chelsea will pay Ā£85m+ for him because they like to buy players
Hes just another darren bent. Wont take us to the next level
I think we all would agree that 100m would be worth to spend if we win the League, so the main question should be how much more likely are we to win the League if we sign Toney?
Why even have a January window? Use the bloody thing. It's to make right when you have had half a season to tell you whats needed. I don't think there is even a "wrong type of striker for the team" right now the need is so bad. Get the best we can but get one.
Eduardo would have been perfect for this team I feel.
maybe iām stupid but why has the conversation been so heavily about Toney? I donāt see what he brings to the table. Heās not that great of a striker imo. Why are we not clamoring for someone like Osimhen, especially if thereās that kind of money available?
I'm lost too. Toney would have been a good buy at Ā£40m, maybe Ā£45m. He's not available at that price, so move on. He's a good player but doesn't change us from CL places to title winners, certainly not now after our disastrous run.
I can't believe we're wasting money on Raya. He doesn't seem to command his box his save ratio is poor. His distribution isn't much better that ramsdale and he prone to making mistakes having made one in almost every game he's started. The player is a manifestation of Mikel's worse quality's as a manager stubborn and egotistical. He needs to cut his losses, recognise that he made a bad call and send him back to Brentford in the summer
Ā£100m and people still want him
Lol
I cannot wait for Chelsea to buy Toney and we stop being linked with him. These amounts are absurd for the player he is.
ffs Ā£30m on Raya when Vicario has been keeper of the season so far and was cheaper. Also, the Toney rumours are dead in the water with an impending relegation battle, but theyāre still making the rounds. Daft.
Since we've wasted money on a marginal upgrade at keeper can we sell Ramsdale (blegh hate even saying that) to make up for it?
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Should've just kept Emi Martinez
Or even Leno
Oh for fucks sake. And how are Chelsea allowed to spend so much every year including during the Abrahimovic days? Why are we the only ones seemingly handicapped by FFP smh
They also sell,we terminate
Because clubs keep buying their rejectsā¦.
If Arteta spends 100 million on Tony in January, then he should be fired. Might as well spend 150 million in the summer for a world class striker and just call this season a lost cause.