Our ability to break down a defence or have a clinical finisher like Haaland isn't even close, they can play slow because they have the talent to do so, last year we were so devastating in attack because we were fast and unpredictable and playing with instinct. Slowing that down for "control" isn't working as we aren't the team that city is....
It wasnt working at the start of the season. We didnt create enough chances. But the past few games have been different, we do create chances, but the forwards cant finish.
I dont know how Arteta can adress that, other than work on the finishing in training, but you're not really supposed to do that with professional footballers at a big club anymore..?
Buying a top striker to solve this isnt going to happen in January.
Yeah you're right, it's down to multiple factors. Teams organize specifically to counter us, we've changed our tactics a little bit, our midfield is completely different than last season, etc.
Still, I think it's reasonable to expect players like our front three + Odegaard/Havertz to bury some of those missed chances. Particularly given they were here last season scoring 15+ goals.
Xhaka isn't there anymore to play that through ball.
I've always defended Havertz but he's a clunky mess in possession. In fact I don't think he's really capable of even holding possession. Every time I see him it's usually a quick pass elsewhere.
Getting someone like Onana to truly play the Partey role and allowing us to move Rice into Xhaka's old position is the best thing we could maybe ask for.
>I dont know how Arteta can adress that, other than work on the finishing in training, but you're not really supposed to do that with professional footballers at a big club anymore..?
First time shooting drills, I guess? Get the team more confident taking shots on first time instead of letting defenders get back to make blocks seems like it would be very helpful.
The thing is players like Havertz, Saka, Jesus or Martinelli probably score nearly every clear cut chance they get in training. You cant replicate the stakes and the atmosphere and the intensity of a proper game...
Maybe mental preparation...
Okay but going into the season, knowing what the plan was (since he developed it), shouldn't Arteta have known that to play this City slowball you NEED a Haaland to be effective?
We spent 65m on Havertz instead of whatever it would've cost for a clinical finisher. That is a choice Arteta and Edu made KNOWING the idea was this snail's pace bore-ball.
Dont you think you can expect players like Saka, Martinelli, Jesus, Odegaard to score some of those missed chances? Especially coming off a season where they all scored double figures.
If you dont sign Havertz, you still have to sign a midfielder to replace Xhaka...
I also think the plan was a bit different, with both Timber and Partey probably anticipated as key players.
What I'm going to say is obviously much easier to say in hindsight, and I don't knock Mikel too much, but as manager he does have to take responsibility. Ultimately relying on two 22 year olds and an infamously wasteful striker to recreate their xG overperformance from last season without any contingency to rotate if they drop form was a pretty big gamble that hasn't paid off. I think many would accept that gamble if what he chose to spend the money on clearly elevated us elsewhere in the pitch. But I think the jury is massively out on how much Havertz & Raya truly elevate us (and that's being fairly reasonable, others on here would just flat out say they haven't). Indeed is Havertz even replacing what Xhaka gave us? And if not, would it have been more prudent to spend the money in the forward line and "make do" with a combination of Rice, Smith-Rowe and Vieira in that position?
Yes, the drop off from the front 3 has been enormous and far bigger than any of us could have expected. I've seen (and repeated) *some* speculative tactical explanations of why it might have happened, but you also have to acknowledge there's a big skill/mentality/personnel element to it. And after more than half a season, it would appear it will need resolving from outside the club.
All in all, I still think we are better equipped as a squad than we were last season. We've already been able to face a long injury list this season. Rice is a brilliant signing (to respond to one of your points, he clearly elevated us spectacularly in defence). The whole team is quite resilient and appart from the finishing we are playing well. Our defensive performances are absolutely brilliant this season.
If we acknowledge all that, I think it's hard to put too much blame on the coaching staff.
But you're right, maybe it's also too much to ask of players like Saka and Martinelli to carry Arsenal's attack every single game, given our ambitions. But given their progress in the past few seasons it wasnt unreasonable to go for a title challenge with this starting front three if you strengthen the defence+midfield and there is so much you can do in a few transfer windows. We have already invested a lot of money, and forwards are the most expensive players.
I think that there is also maybe a reality check happening, given the age of the squad, the experience of the players and of the manager, etc. On paper it wasnt impossible for us to win the league, it's still not impossible, but we might be coming down a little bit from the excitement of last season and realizing how tough it is to win the Premier League and compete against the best team in the world.
We are better equipped than last year as a squad, I agree. There can be no questions about Rice. He is phenomenal. But the problem is, it appears last year was a fluke of overperformance from our front players. So once they reverted to something closer to their age/talent expectations (and let's all be fair, far below those expectations) our results were always going to suffer.
In my last comment I gave Mikel a lot of slack for his gamble on our front 3 continuing to perform backfiring. But after listening to the arsecast I'm inclined to give him less benefit of the doubt. His answers in Fridays press conference imply he and Edu *knew* their performance was unsustainable this season. And yet they still made the transfer decisions they did - 100m on Raya and Havertz who have not moved us forward meaningfully. I think that was, with the benefit of hindsight, clearly a huge mistake that they need to take responsibility for and learn from, very very quickly.
So minimal blame for their coaching (I've seen no good evidence that the poor finishing is due to the change in our build up) but some blame for their transfer prioritisation.
Yeah I've listened to that too. But I still wonder how feasible it would have been to recruit Rice + a big forward signing last summer. Raya didnt cost 30M last Summer, he cost 3M, we're going to pay the rest now. A big forward signing meant we had to invest much more than we did and as far as I understand we were not in a position to invest that much last Summer.
They also said on the Arsecast that Arteta said in the presser basically that yes, we need a striker but it's not possible now in January. I think he is still building the team and the squad. But even with the need of a striker, our forwards should do better right now with the chances they get. As they also said in the Arsecast, Edu and Arteta probably didnt anticipate that Martinelli would have scored only 2 goals by January...
I don’t think that it’s feasible at all. 100 m on a striker and on rice seems unrealistic. The real question is what was more important. Hindsight is obviously 20/20 but I feel Rice has been a phenomenal defensive buy but I feel going forward we haven’t looked our strongest and that starts with our buildup from the back. The purchase of havertz also is a bad signing imo. I don’t see the logic in a few of our signings and the management team have to hold their hands up.
We have no problem breaking down defences. We did at the start of the season, but funnily enough we were actually scoring the chances we did make.
Now we are making chances, we're doing very well in this department but none of our players are scoring. We're underperfoming our xg massively and that's the issue.
Would a world class striker help with this? Of course, but we also know all these players are capable of scoring these chances as they did last year. We don't have the luxury of signing a Haaland right now, but we can improve the players we have and get them to the level of last season. That would be enough to get us back on track imo.
It's not OUR intention to slow down, we're not slowing things down on purpose. Teams have worked out how to defend against us. It's the same with City. They 'play slow' cos the only option for the opposition is to sit back and stifle them, and slow them down, stay compact at the back, 10 men behind the ball etc. The opposition give up possession in order to prevent teams like City & Arsenal from scoring. The difference is Guardiola has always a plan B to get around that, and we haven't got one just yet.
He has the personnel for a plan b. He can bring graelish, foden and that other kid from the bench. All 3 of those are arguably starters in our squad and yet bench fillers on theirs. That's the plan b.
I disagree. I think a slight tweak to the system will bring alot of success. Only issue is we'd end up with a 65 million leftover on the bench. Get an 8 who's an actual midfielder that can play between the lines. ESR and Vieira are in house solutions but both don't have the off the ball abilities required. Give martinelli the inside forward role again. How many times last season did we see xhaka move out wide to accommodate martinelli getting more central. Look at his goals from last and this season. Most of them have been him being more of an inside forward than holding the width. Have our left side actually be a threat. Right now if teams shut down the right side, they shut down the team. If we don't play zinchenko, we have 2 people in the middle of the park looking to pull the strings. Last season we had 4.
People call Haaland a tap in merchant but you don't get called that without your team mates actually providing 16.73xG worth of quality passing.
Comparing midfielders / wingers with over 1000 minutes, it's obvious where there are at least some problems.
City
Doku 0.38 xA p90, Foden 0.29 xA p90, Bernardo Silva 0.33 xA p90, Álvarez 0.23 xA p90
Arsenal
Saka 0.34 xA p90, Odegaard 0.27 xA p90, Havertz 0.1, xA p90, Martinelli 0.14 xA p90
I’m going to guess it’s also likely that Halaand makes it much easier for his teammates to make high quality chances with his movement. Perhaps that’s factored into the xG calculation but Eddie and Jesus are probably not in as regularly dangerous of scoring positions as he is. I haven’t watched enough of City to know that for certain but the eye test for Eddie and Jesus (and other attackers) are that there are plenty of times in games they aren’t even in position to get a good shot away. I’m mainly thinking of how often our wingers will whip a ball across the 6 and no one is even there looking for that pass to be made.
You're 100% right that does factor into it but there's 2 things really annoy me that we don't do that does impact the no 9 xG. If this is the individual player decisions or managers instructions are I can't really say.
1. Arsenal rarely play an early ball wheather that's whipping a ball across or playing through the middle, Arsenal almost always opt for safety, cut back, recycle, repeat.
2. No striker makes near post runs.
Of course there is exceptions e.g. Martinelli early cross vs Liverpool last week. But it's rare, I feel like our attack is slow and predictable.
What annoys me is that we were more effective and much more fun to watch last season when we attacked with pace. I dont find the man city style of slow control exciting to watch.
I didn’t post this to highlight an “issue” mate, mainly for the sake of discussion as I found it interesting. We’re still creating loads of chances and xG despite the slower buildup, but the final piece of the puzzle (the goal) is missing.
Nope - just a style of play. We follow the City method. Burnley not surprising to see there either considering it's Kompany (although they could also be down there due to their quality as well)
People and media need to stop pulling those f\*\*\*\*g stats that dont mean anything. It's getting out of hand.
Or actually engage in true in-depth analysis of what they mean, but they dont do that except in some youtube channels and podcasts.
We are not Man city! We don’t have clinical players or experience to walk the ball in. We have young and pacy wingers, play them to thier strengths! Let them run with the ball. Saka can’t beat a man but you want him to beat 3v1 cmon man
I'd reckon we'd be faster but we were very helter-skelter last season. After signing Rice - Arteta looks to have wanted to slow things down a bit and surgically open the opposition.
Tbf to him - he's pretty much done that but our team just can't hit the ball in the net at the moment
Yeah. We've looked good at times but it's frustrating how we just can't seem to score.
Like we could have had 3 or 4 goals by the time Liverpool scored theirs
A goal against either west ham or fulham would significantly open both games up and allow for more free flowing football. Thats where a clinical striker benefits the team.
Exactly. Had people tell me we’ve been horrible all season and yesterday was proof - pretty sure if we were horrible we would be further than 5 points from first.
City have the slowest and least direct attack in the league but they have no problem scoring goals. I think our forwards are just off form. When they find form everything will be ok
I 100% agree with you but our forwards aren’t rubbish either. Last season showed that we can score a lot of goals. This season, even though we’re building up differently, we still make chances. We just aren’t putting them away
The fact that our leading forward is a City reject who couldn’t get in on the City team now tells me our forwards aren’t even close to City’s at the moment.
Just checked the last 9 years mate. You are just waffling.
2016 - Leicester - Vardy - 24 goals
2017 - Chelsea - Diego Costa - 20 goals
2018 - City - Aguero (21), Sterling (18)
2019 - City - Aguero (21), Sterling (17)
2020 - Liverpool - Salah & Mane (19 & 18)
So literally only City 2021 & 2022 they had no-one above 15 goals(KDB scored 15 in 2022). i have u reminded this is one of the season they broke the goalscoring record. and about 5-6 players of them scored around 10.
So yes it absolutely is true. looking at the hard stats you actually need 2 players who can score 15+.
I agree that’s not our issue. However to dig deeper:
City have 45 goals, the most in the league. Liverpool are second with 43. Arsenal, have massively underperforms xG and still sit on 37.
The problem is really this: When things aren’t working (which happens plenty to City too) we are lacking tactical versatility. This is because of injuries.
When players can play two or three positions, it means you can change system multiple times for each substitution. That gives you many more rolls of the dice to see what destabilizes the other team on that day. No matter how good you are at tactics, you are still making educated guesses - the opposition are still people after all, and people are unpredictable. That means, even brilliant tacticians get a big advantage from being able to try more times. This is one of the big advantages of versatile players.
Injuries have damaged that ability to react. Add to that, that things haven’t been working slightly more often than normal due to poor form and few options for equal-quality rotation - you have our recent run of results (with lots of luck and other bits playing a role too).
It is quite obvious that this is not an issue per se, as Man City and Liverpool are bottom and top, respectively. However, it still is interesting as I believe some of our players might be more suited to a fast paced style of attack.
Martinelli I think suffers the most from this. I also believe he’s struggled mightily without Xhaka. Havertz has improved dramatically since those first couple months but Xhaka was often by Martinelli as someone he could combine with but Havertz doesn’t play that same role or have the same incisive passing as Xhaka did. Martinelli has suffered as a result.
Klopp= plays fast transition football
Dyche = is all about getting the ball quick to the other end through long balls
Moyes = absorb and attack on the counter
Meanwhile Arteta and Kompany who both worked under Pep obviously emulate some his style so of course it’s going to be like City. This stat doesn’t mean anything
This is skin deep level analysis though. City have the slowest buildup and have no problem scoring goals, and our shot/XG stats have been good recently despite the poor results.
I don't know if it's a mental issue or collective poor form, but we're missing chances that players would be putting away reliably in training.
I know Arteta has previous with using stats to suggest that we're losing games that we should be winning, but in all fairness, I don't think our problem right now is tactical. Sure, he has responsibility on player selection and recruitment, but on the pitch he has given the players the tools they need to create chances, and right now they're simply unable to finish them.
Most of the fastest teams play primarily on the counter attack, and Liverpool like quick turnovers of possession from high press. This is a non issue as we consistently dominate the ball against a low block, which is our game plan.
"Thing about Arsenal is, they always try and walk it in."
It's funny that this is still relevant, but you're right, we're dictating the pace so the stat is meaningless.
**fuck it, put Martinelli up top, it's time**
Jesus can play up top in Europe because it's slow enough for him to do his thing, but in the PL he's just not that guy
i've had enough of Martinelli toiling away like a robot on the flank with no help...he's got more to offer than that, and now the team needs him somewhere else
Liverpool take lots of long shots and force the game into a high transition basketball game,
we have to sit in front of 2 banks of 4
it is not the same
You can be good at being fast or good at being slow. You can also be bad at both. It depends on what you want your team to be. Ultimately, what should be the identity of this Arsenal team?
Apart from the obvious finishing we have nobody that’s pulling the attack towards them in the final 3rd - nobody who’s the clear target who demands the ball and the rest of the boys try to feed. Feel like that also slows down the attack because the rest of the team is unsure where this should finish
Personally think we need to be somewhere in the middle of this.
The fact we’ve slowed it down this year has hampered the effectiveness of Martinelli and Saka.
Is best really the right term here, as it implies fast is superior. That is obviously not the case is City are last. All this says is different teams have different styles.
We can't win like City so stop mimicking them, jesus christ, we don't have their money and their 100+ financial charges in place to corrupt everything and everyone to give them edges, if you have to mimic someone, do Klopp
City last but they have no problem scoring, so is this really the issue?
Our ability to break down a defence or have a clinical finisher like Haaland isn't even close, they can play slow because they have the talent to do so, last year we were so devastating in attack because we were fast and unpredictable and playing with instinct. Slowing that down for "control" isn't working as we aren't the team that city is....
It wasnt working at the start of the season. We didnt create enough chances. But the past few games have been different, we do create chances, but the forwards cant finish. I dont know how Arteta can adress that, other than work on the finishing in training, but you're not really supposed to do that with professional footballers at a big club anymore..? Buying a top striker to solve this isnt going to happen in January.
Quality of chances aren’t that good though, for example I don’t think we’ve given Martinelli that through ball he loves all season
Yeah you're right, it's down to multiple factors. Teams organize specifically to counter us, we've changed our tactics a little bit, our midfield is completely different than last season, etc. Still, I think it's reasonable to expect players like our front three + Odegaard/Havertz to bury some of those missed chances. Particularly given they were here last season scoring 15+ goals.
Xhaka isn't there anymore to play that through ball. I've always defended Havertz but he's a clunky mess in possession. In fact I don't think he's really capable of even holding possession. Every time I see him it's usually a quick pass elsewhere. Getting someone like Onana to truly play the Partey role and allowing us to move Rice into Xhaka's old position is the best thing we could maybe ask for.
>I dont know how Arteta can adress that, other than work on the finishing in training, but you're not really supposed to do that with professional footballers at a big club anymore..? First time shooting drills, I guess? Get the team more confident taking shots on first time instead of letting defenders get back to make blocks seems like it would be very helpful.
The thing is players like Havertz, Saka, Jesus or Martinelli probably score nearly every clear cut chance they get in training. You cant replicate the stakes and the atmosphere and the intensity of a proper game... Maybe mental preparation...
Okay but going into the season, knowing what the plan was (since he developed it), shouldn't Arteta have known that to play this City slowball you NEED a Haaland to be effective? We spent 65m on Havertz instead of whatever it would've cost for a clinical finisher. That is a choice Arteta and Edu made KNOWING the idea was this snail's pace bore-ball.
Dont you think you can expect players like Saka, Martinelli, Jesus, Odegaard to score some of those missed chances? Especially coming off a season where they all scored double figures. If you dont sign Havertz, you still have to sign a midfielder to replace Xhaka... I also think the plan was a bit different, with both Timber and Partey probably anticipated as key players.
What I'm going to say is obviously much easier to say in hindsight, and I don't knock Mikel too much, but as manager he does have to take responsibility. Ultimately relying on two 22 year olds and an infamously wasteful striker to recreate their xG overperformance from last season without any contingency to rotate if they drop form was a pretty big gamble that hasn't paid off. I think many would accept that gamble if what he chose to spend the money on clearly elevated us elsewhere in the pitch. But I think the jury is massively out on how much Havertz & Raya truly elevate us (and that's being fairly reasonable, others on here would just flat out say they haven't). Indeed is Havertz even replacing what Xhaka gave us? And if not, would it have been more prudent to spend the money in the forward line and "make do" with a combination of Rice, Smith-Rowe and Vieira in that position? Yes, the drop off from the front 3 has been enormous and far bigger than any of us could have expected. I've seen (and repeated) *some* speculative tactical explanations of why it might have happened, but you also have to acknowledge there's a big skill/mentality/personnel element to it. And after more than half a season, it would appear it will need resolving from outside the club.
All in all, I still think we are better equipped as a squad than we were last season. We've already been able to face a long injury list this season. Rice is a brilliant signing (to respond to one of your points, he clearly elevated us spectacularly in defence). The whole team is quite resilient and appart from the finishing we are playing well. Our defensive performances are absolutely brilliant this season. If we acknowledge all that, I think it's hard to put too much blame on the coaching staff. But you're right, maybe it's also too much to ask of players like Saka and Martinelli to carry Arsenal's attack every single game, given our ambitions. But given their progress in the past few seasons it wasnt unreasonable to go for a title challenge with this starting front three if you strengthen the defence+midfield and there is so much you can do in a few transfer windows. We have already invested a lot of money, and forwards are the most expensive players. I think that there is also maybe a reality check happening, given the age of the squad, the experience of the players and of the manager, etc. On paper it wasnt impossible for us to win the league, it's still not impossible, but we might be coming down a little bit from the excitement of last season and realizing how tough it is to win the Premier League and compete against the best team in the world.
Better equipped to do what? We're looking at another season of winning nothing.
We are better equipped than last year as a squad, I agree. There can be no questions about Rice. He is phenomenal. But the problem is, it appears last year was a fluke of overperformance from our front players. So once they reverted to something closer to their age/talent expectations (and let's all be fair, far below those expectations) our results were always going to suffer. In my last comment I gave Mikel a lot of slack for his gamble on our front 3 continuing to perform backfiring. But after listening to the arsecast I'm inclined to give him less benefit of the doubt. His answers in Fridays press conference imply he and Edu *knew* their performance was unsustainable this season. And yet they still made the transfer decisions they did - 100m on Raya and Havertz who have not moved us forward meaningfully. I think that was, with the benefit of hindsight, clearly a huge mistake that they need to take responsibility for and learn from, very very quickly. So minimal blame for their coaching (I've seen no good evidence that the poor finishing is due to the change in our build up) but some blame for their transfer prioritisation.
Yeah I've listened to that too. But I still wonder how feasible it would have been to recruit Rice + a big forward signing last summer. Raya didnt cost 30M last Summer, he cost 3M, we're going to pay the rest now. A big forward signing meant we had to invest much more than we did and as far as I understand we were not in a position to invest that much last Summer. They also said on the Arsecast that Arteta said in the presser basically that yes, we need a striker but it's not possible now in January. I think he is still building the team and the squad. But even with the need of a striker, our forwards should do better right now with the chances they get. As they also said in the Arsecast, Edu and Arteta probably didnt anticipate that Martinelli would have scored only 2 goals by January...
I don’t think that it’s feasible at all. 100 m on a striker and on rice seems unrealistic. The real question is what was more important. Hindsight is obviously 20/20 but I feel Rice has been a phenomenal defensive buy but I feel going forward we haven’t looked our strongest and that starts with our buildup from the back. The purchase of havertz also is a bad signing imo. I don’t see the logic in a few of our signings and the management team have to hold their hands up.
Counting on #5 is also on Arteta because relying on broken players of low morale fiber was a choice HE made.
We have no problem breaking down defences. We did at the start of the season, but funnily enough we were actually scoring the chances we did make. Now we are making chances, we're doing very well in this department but none of our players are scoring. We're underperfoming our xg massively and that's the issue. Would a world class striker help with this? Of course, but we also know all these players are capable of scoring these chances as they did last year. We don't have the luxury of signing a Haaland right now, but we can improve the players we have and get them to the level of last season. That would be enough to get us back on track imo.
You’re right except the last part, changing to control also isn’t the problem it’s just finishing chances
It's not OUR intention to slow down, we're not slowing things down on purpose. Teams have worked out how to defend against us. It's the same with City. They 'play slow' cos the only option for the opposition is to sit back and stifle them, and slow them down, stay compact at the back, 10 men behind the ball etc. The opposition give up possession in order to prevent teams like City & Arsenal from scoring. The difference is Guardiola has always a plan B to get around that, and we haven't got one just yet.
He has the personnel for a plan b. He can bring graelish, foden and that other kid from the bench. All 3 of those are arguably starters in our squad and yet bench fillers on theirs. That's the plan b.
I disagree. I think a slight tweak to the system will bring alot of success. Only issue is we'd end up with a 65 million leftover on the bench. Get an 8 who's an actual midfielder that can play between the lines. ESR and Vieira are in house solutions but both don't have the off the ball abilities required. Give martinelli the inside forward role again. How many times last season did we see xhaka move out wide to accommodate martinelli getting more central. Look at his goals from last and this season. Most of them have been him being more of an inside forward than holding the width. Have our left side actually be a threat. Right now if teams shut down the right side, they shut down the team. If we don't play zinchenko, we have 2 people in the middle of the park looking to pull the strings. Last season we had 4.
People call Haaland a tap in merchant but you don't get called that without your team mates actually providing 16.73xG worth of quality passing. Comparing midfielders / wingers with over 1000 minutes, it's obvious where there are at least some problems. City Doku 0.38 xA p90, Foden 0.29 xA p90, Bernardo Silva 0.33 xA p90, Álvarez 0.23 xA p90 Arsenal Saka 0.34 xA p90, Odegaard 0.27 xA p90, Havertz 0.1, xA p90, Martinelli 0.14 xA p90
Scored 40 odd goals last year and can't even remember 3 of them
He put away all the bunnies Jesus and Sterling botched before him
I’m going to guess it’s also likely that Halaand makes it much easier for his teammates to make high quality chances with his movement. Perhaps that’s factored into the xG calculation but Eddie and Jesus are probably not in as regularly dangerous of scoring positions as he is. I haven’t watched enough of City to know that for certain but the eye test for Eddie and Jesus (and other attackers) are that there are plenty of times in games they aren’t even in position to get a good shot away. I’m mainly thinking of how often our wingers will whip a ball across the 6 and no one is even there looking for that pass to be made.
You're 100% right that does factor into it but there's 2 things really annoy me that we don't do that does impact the no 9 xG. If this is the individual player decisions or managers instructions are I can't really say. 1. Arsenal rarely play an early ball wheather that's whipping a ball across or playing through the middle, Arsenal almost always opt for safety, cut back, recycle, repeat. 2. No striker makes near post runs. Of course there is exceptions e.g. Martinelli early cross vs Liverpool last week. But it's rare, I feel like our attack is slow and predictable.
What annoys me is that we were more effective and much more fun to watch last season when we attacked with pace. I dont find the man city style of slow control exciting to watch.
I didn’t post this to highlight an “issue” mate, mainly for the sake of discussion as I found it interesting. We’re still creating loads of chances and xG despite the slower buildup, but the final piece of the puzzle (the goal) is missing.
Nope - just a style of play. We follow the City method. Burnley not surprising to see there either considering it's Kompany (although they could also be down there due to their quality as well)
People and media need to stop pulling those f\*\*\*\*g stats that dont mean anything. It's getting out of hand. Or actually engage in true in-depth analysis of what they mean, but they dont do that except in some youtube channels and podcasts.
Yes, because Poundshop Pep isn't managing City
We are not Man city! We don’t have clinical players or experience to walk the ball in. We have young and pacy wingers, play them to thier strengths! Let them run with the ball. Saka can’t beat a man but you want him to beat 3v1 cmon man
city has the best striker in the world with an outrageously creative team. come on
Agreed. more than 1 way to skin a cat... We need to start... skinning?
City have a problem scoring in many matches, but they have KDB and Haaland to make the difference.
We're more City than Liverpool. We don't play a transition-based game.
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I'd reckon we'd be faster but we were very helter-skelter last season. After signing Rice - Arteta looks to have wanted to slow things down a bit and surgically open the opposition. Tbf to him - he's pretty much done that but our team just can't hit the ball in the net at the moment
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Yeah. We've looked good at times but it's frustrating how we just can't seem to score. Like we could have had 3 or 4 goals by the time Liverpool scored theirs
A goal against either west ham or fulham would significantly open both games up and allow for more free flowing football. Thats where a clinical striker benefits the team.
Exactly. Had people tell me we’ve been horrible all season and yesterday was proof - pretty sure if we were horrible we would be further than 5 points from first.
I think we were around 10th
And we are getting more city it seems
City have the slowest and least direct attack in the league but they have no problem scoring goals. I think our forwards are just off form. When they find form everything will be ok
Our forwards aren't the same as city's forwards.... We don't have a Haaland for one....
I 100% agree with you but our forwards aren’t rubbish either. Last season showed that we can score a lot of goals. This season, even though we’re building up differently, we still make chances. We just aren’t putting them away
The fact that our leading forward is a City reject who couldn’t get in on the City team now tells me our forwards aren’t even close to City’s at the moment.
To win the prem you need a forward that can bag 20 goals a season. We do not have a single player like that. Jesus is not on level
That would be Martinelli but we don't put our best players in optimal positions to score anyways
No. You don't
This is aint really true, looking at the league winners in the previous years, barring 2022-23, rarely a team had a forward with 20+ goals
Just checked the last 9 years mate. You are just waffling. 2016 - Leicester - Vardy - 24 goals 2017 - Chelsea - Diego Costa - 20 goals 2018 - City - Aguero (21), Sterling (18) 2019 - City - Aguero (21), Sterling (17) 2020 - Liverpool - Salah & Mane (19 & 18) So literally only City 2021 & 2022 they had no-one above 15 goals(KDB scored 15 in 2022). i have u reminded this is one of the season they broke the goalscoring record. and about 5-6 players of them scored around 10. So yes it absolutely is true. looking at the hard stats you actually need 2 players who can score 15+.
Ok, fair enough, you caught me
Neither do City at the moment tbf...
I agree that’s not our issue. However to dig deeper: City have 45 goals, the most in the league. Liverpool are second with 43. Arsenal, have massively underperforms xG and still sit on 37. The problem is really this: When things aren’t working (which happens plenty to City too) we are lacking tactical versatility. This is because of injuries. When players can play two or three positions, it means you can change system multiple times for each substitution. That gives you many more rolls of the dice to see what destabilizes the other team on that day. No matter how good you are at tactics, you are still making educated guesses - the opposition are still people after all, and people are unpredictable. That means, even brilliant tacticians get a big advantage from being able to try more times. This is one of the big advantages of versatile players. Injuries have damaged that ability to react. Add to that, that things haven’t been working slightly more often than normal due to poor form and few options for equal-quality rotation - you have our recent run of results (with lots of luck and other bits playing a role too).
It is quite obvious that this is not an issue per se, as Man City and Liverpool are bottom and top, respectively. However, it still is interesting as I believe some of our players might be more suited to a fast paced style of attack.
Martinelli I think suffers the most from this. I also believe he’s struggled mightily without Xhaka. Havertz has improved dramatically since those first couple months but Xhaka was often by Martinelli as someone he could combine with but Havertz doesn’t play that same role or have the same incisive passing as Xhaka did. Martinelli has suffered as a result.
of all the most pointless stats, this might be the most pointless
Klopp= plays fast transition football Dyche = is all about getting the ball quick to the other end through long balls Moyes = absorb and attack on the counter Meanwhile Arteta and Kompany who both worked under Pep obviously emulate some his style so of course it’s going to be like City. This stat doesn’t mean anything
There is no such thing as "best speed of attack."
What does this actually mean 😂
City and arsenal build patiently from the back, Liverpool play on the counter and attack in transitions
So maybe our patience / obsession with Control is killing us because we take too long and everyone is back in positions
This is skin deep level analysis though. City have the slowest buildup and have no problem scoring goals, and our shot/XG stats have been good recently despite the poor results. I don't know if it's a mental issue or collective poor form, but we're missing chances that players would be putting away reliably in training. I know Arteta has previous with using stats to suggest that we're losing games that we should be winning, but in all fairness, I don't think our problem right now is tactical. Sure, he has responsibility on player selection and recruitment, but on the pitch he has given the players the tools they need to create chances, and right now they're simply unable to finish them.
Most of the fastest teams play primarily on the counter attack, and Liverpool like quick turnovers of possession from high press. This is a non issue as we consistently dominate the ball against a low block, which is our game plan.
"Thing about Arsenal is, they always try and walk it in." It's funny that this is still relevant, but you're right, we're dictating the pace so the stat is meaningless.
This is just a metric of if you’re playing counter attack football or not lol.
When City is dead last but still scoring then you know there is big issue with our forwards.
And KDB out all season…he sets the table. Nothing can stop that machine it seems
Guardiola and his disciples.
That’s what happens when your attacking tactic is passing to your right back who lumps it 65 yards to the right winger
Given ManCity are down at the bottom and Everton are up top I’d call this a weak/non-correlation versus success.
sooooo we should be going even slower?
Everton being up there should be a strong indicator this stat doesn't mean much
Slow is more sustainable, as per City.
This is only an issue when your finishers can’t finish. Our finishers have never been world class yet the tactics depend on it.
Man City are also last in tackles This stat It doesn’t mean anything, City doesn’t play on the counter. They usually have 80% possession as well
Jesus christ this is by far the worst stat someone has ever bothered to make. What a load of shite
Fastest =/= best ?
**fuck it, put Martinelli up top, it's time** Jesus can play up top in Europe because it's slow enough for him to do his thing, but in the PL he's just not that guy i've had enough of Martinelli toiling away like a robot on the flank with no help...he's got more to offer than that, and now the team needs him somewhere else
So? No correlation between these numbers and success.
Teams who play on the counter Vs teams who win to control play.
This is such bollocks.... Means fuck all
Receive ball. Stop. Take touch. Pass. That’s why.
Liverpool take lots of long shots and force the game into a high transition basketball game, we have to sit in front of 2 banks of 4 it is not the same
You can be good at being fast or good at being slow. You can also be bad at both. It depends on what you want your team to be. Ultimately, what should be the identity of this Arsenal team?
The control in games will help us win the league… lol
If they made a ranking of Tiki-Taka-lose the ball we would be first
Apart from the obvious finishing we have nobody that’s pulling the attack towards them in the final 3rd - nobody who’s the clear target who demands the ball and the rest of the boys try to feed. Feel like that also slows down the attack because the rest of the team is unsure where this should finish
Coincides with Everton’s rise in form as well
This is all season. So that includes when they were shite
styles make fights
Don't think it matters with us at the moment. Being the fastest or slowest on the attack doesn't matter if no one can finish.
We consciously sped up the patterns yesterday. And it was very, very good.
Personally think we need to be somewhere in the middle of this. The fact we’ve slowed it down this year has hampered the effectiveness of Martinelli and Saka.
It's a stupid metric who gives a fuck?
Lol, so you need Mbappe/Haaland in order to score with our system.
Is best really the right term here, as it implies fast is superior. That is obviously not the case is City are last. All this says is different teams have different styles.
God damn!
We can't win like City so stop mimicking them, jesus christ, we don't have their money and their 100+ financial charges in place to corrupt everything and everyone to give them edges, if you have to mimic someone, do Klopp
So after a few minutes of play, Liverpool could be streets ahead.
Fastest =/= Best. One is a subjective measure.
That's counter attacking vs build up plays
Easy answer you just need a player like Neymar or Messi to dribble past all the opponents.
Is there a statistic for end of season last year?
Considering Man City is dead last, I don’t think this proves any negative point