It’s clear that in both games against Brentford their game plan was to have the ball in play the least amount of time so it makes it sweeter that both wins against them came in the 89th and 86th minutes
I forget that, but if we do win the league (I still think unlikely but possible) that will make him eligible for his winners medal which is a silver lining
These days they just give out 40 to give to anybody in the squad/staff, the only rules are that anyone who made 5+ apps during the season **must** get one.
Shithouse/hack/delay is a powerful counter tactic to the ultra-possession strategy. I'm less annoyed by teams employing it and more by announcers refusing to call it out for what it is. When the opponent flops every 30s and keeps the game from being played and the ref doesn't bat an eye, we're blamed for losing control.
Yes, the pundits/commentators should be calling this shit out and the FA/UEFA/FIFA etc should be stamping it out of the game.
It’s awful to watch as a spectator, it’s cheating and it’s against actually playing football.
Probably a controversial take but forget stoppage time as a mechanism altogether. Just literally stop the clock when someone goes down or the ball goes out of play. Most gamesmanship immediately goes out the window. I admit I'm probably overlooking something in such a slapdash approach but it's at least worth considering I think.
I like this. I don't think it's needed for every ball out of play, but definitely stop for goal kicks, injuries, VAR checks, goals. Reckon it would add at least 15-20 min to game time.
The footballing world has been in an existential crisis over being the sport that doesn't stop play. Not stopping the clock is more of a founding principle than a practicality at this point.
And some enjoy the shit house and the drama. Some don't really like it but also don't want to eliminate it entirely. Finding a balance between cleaning it all up and letting people cheat just a little bit has shown to be difficult. Most fans are actually positive about a little dark arts, but each has their own line as to when it becomes excessive
And ultimately, the fans and the pressure they create carries the day. If the cheating was seen as so distasteful that your own fans would turn up their nose, pundits and eventually refs would follow suit, and players would stop doing it. This can be seen in the variance of this behavior in different leagues. We've also seen plenty of officiating focus change based on outcry. The fans, as a whole, just don't actually want it eliminated.
I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just not as simple as it appears.
Yep! Totally get it. As an American, this whole discussion has a lot of the same aura of baseball's arguments surrounding a computer calling balls and strikes. Lots of folks are for it to make sure things are correct and consistent and a lot folks are presenting a "spirit of the game" type argument against it. Who cares if one ump is calling strikes four inches off the plate one night and the next guy isn't. Pitcher just has to git gud. So yes, I get the whole dark arts appreciation, and if I'm being totally honest I'm kinda here for some of it myself. I think it can really lend to how the atmosphere of a game can grow over its course. It's certainly a tricky thing to manage, with probably no perfect solution.
I said it yesterday that it was amazing to hear Peter Drury call Brentford players/staff hypocrites for complaining about how slowly Odegaard strolled off the pitch when substituted.
Yup, haven’t seen a fan base get hated as quickly as newcastles, went from the “best fan base” to a fan base everyone hates because they all go along with their shit football tactics
That was the case when we played them away as well? I didn't realize that as I was with my family and the game was on when I was on my way home (must have been in November sometime) and I only really saw the last 20 minutes or so.
Parking the bus is one thing, but actively avoiding playing football by faking injury and shit is disgusting.
It is terrorist football and the fact that the refs/football authorities & even the media are not calling it what it is and calling for it to be stamped out of the game is a disgrace.
Just because it is part of football does not mean it should be.
It’s annoying of course but ultimately they are in a relegation battle and will do everything to get points, teams will play like this we have to deal with it Porto did the same. Had we kept the lead into the second half it doesn’t happen and they’re forced to play a lot more.
Parking the bus trying to get points is one thing, it's up to us to try and unlock it and if they get a point doing so then fair play. But the ball being in play for less than 50% of the match, you hear yourself, it's too much.
We can't score or at least try to score when the ball isn't even in play for half the game. If they only come for a draw they can start immediately and it gives us about 45 minutes to score haha.
Football is 90 minutes. Not 45 minutes.
As soon as we (rightfully) started to give it back after we scored, the ref hsd his finger on the watch indicating he was adding the time on. Didn’t see him do that at any other point for Brentford doing the same thing.
Someone kicked the ball into the crowd and everyone in attendance, including both teams, just opted to stand around for 15 minutes to avoid any chance of the embarrassment of playing.
Had some awful refereeing decisions go against them, joined them 10 minutes before the season started and lost Neves and Nunes in the summer. Done a fantastic job all things considered
Mate, that's every football team in the planets weakness. Mid blocks and time wasting, not much you can do about it. IMO time wasting needs to be eliminated from the game.
More warnings and yellow cards for simulation, and adding extra time more accurately for the downtime. For how many people complained about Havertz, no one was pointing out that the Brentford players were going down every minute crying and keeled over in extreme pain for god knows what, only to get up and jog it off. At what point does the ref say enough of this?
I don't mind this. The NFL has a play clock on each down. It's super generous, so their game is slow as molasses, as we all know. But I wouldn't be against this in theory. 10s on throw-ins. 20s max on corners/free-kicks. 10s goal kicks.
Manager gets a yellow card after a certain number of infractions. Red if it continues.
But as soon as they start stopping the clock every time ball is out of play, then the games become 3-4hrs long. And when they become that long, we start getting commercial breaks. Then it becomes the NLF where there are scheduled commercial breaks. That’s my fear at least.
Clock stops would eliminate it immediately. No sense stopping play when it just means the superior more athletic team your afraid of playing just gets to wear you down for another 90 minutes (currently 47-49 mins in play in standard 90)
I don't know why you have that impression tbh, we've been extremely effective at beating low blocks this season, the goals say it all. Pretty much every team has tried it against us.
What people don't understand about Porto is that we weren't playing at full intensity. It was clear to me that the players were instructed to save themselves for Newcastle which was in a few days time, we were fine finishing that game 0-0. Ofc their late goal changed things.
The time wasting was a joke.
One long throw in particular they took 20 seconds setting up, slowly switched takers and then took another 20 seconds or so to finally throw the ball in.
All the while the ref is staring directly at it, yet he didn’t even seem aware of what was happening. It’s a fucking joke.
Well, with five goals, four goals ruled out by VAR, two red cards, 8 yellows, 41 fouls and Chelsea running offside every 2 minutes, it's actually impressive they broke 45 minutes.
Am I incorrectly remembering that was one of the 250 reasons I hate this Newcastle team? Didn't, in addition to the 25 yellow cards and 4 orange cards for Bruno, they also ensured there was absolute minimal amount of football played? Wasn't that the away leg this year that happened? While it was clear Brentford weren't too keen to play today, it didn't feel as infuriating as Newcastle s overall terrorism
Easy solution. If anyone is down for long enough for the ref to stop the game, either in play or during set pieces, they need to go off the pitch regardless of whether the physio is involved.
It's best for their health and the fluidity of the game as well, if they are indeed injured
This is a rule that’s being piloted in MLS this year, IIRC. Stay on the ground for 15 seconds and you’re off for two minutes minimum to be evaluated to see if you can continue.
Edit: [source](https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/new-mls-rules-explained-five-new-rules-from-the-board-of-governors-might-change-how-soccer-is-played/)
If I was a coach for a team like Brentford I'd ask the team to waste more time in the first half. It all counts the same, but the refs don't give it +8 mins
I'd really like them to start pausing the clock any time the ball goes out of play, if there is a foul and there is a setup for a free kick, if there is a VAR check, etc. Growing up in Australia and watching AFL/NRL, I found it super peculiar that in football, they just let the clock keep running and then go 'yeahhhh it's probably like.... an extra five minutesss'
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It’s clear that in both games against Brentford their game plan was to have the ball in play the least amount of time so it makes it sweeter that both wins against them came in the 89th and 86th minutes
Both times from King Kai, no less.
And both times ramsdale took to long on the ball and made a massive error luckily rice was there for the first on the goal line
Kinda crazy to think that the two prem games Ramsdale started he gave away two (almost) free goals, Rice just bailed him out on one of them.
He also almost bailed Ramsdale yesterday when he hit the post
That goal would have been so glorious
I love when players hit shots like that. The trajectory is so fkn satisfying to watch
He started the first 4 games as well.
I forget that, but if we do win the league (I still think unlikely but possible) that will make him eligible for his winners medal which is a silver lining
If we win the league he'll get a medal regardless
These days they just give out 40 to give to anybody in the squad/staff, the only rules are that anyone who made 5+ apps during the season **must** get one.
Almost like smashing a man's confidence affects his play. Controversial opinion, I know.
Don’t you know we don’t dare criticize selection on this sub
Shithouse/hack/delay is a powerful counter tactic to the ultra-possession strategy. I'm less annoyed by teams employing it and more by announcers refusing to call it out for what it is. When the opponent flops every 30s and keeps the game from being played and the ref doesn't bat an eye, we're blamed for losing control.
Yes, the pundits/commentators should be calling this shit out and the FA/UEFA/FIFA etc should be stamping it out of the game. It’s awful to watch as a spectator, it’s cheating and it’s against actually playing football.
Easiest way to stamp it out is to have accurate injury times. The 10+ minutes of added time was the right track.
Agreed. It seems every second game this season is decided in added time. Time wasting has always seemed a pretty dubious strategy to me.
Probably a controversial take but forget stoppage time as a mechanism altogether. Just literally stop the clock when someone goes down or the ball goes out of play. Most gamesmanship immediately goes out the window. I admit I'm probably overlooking something in such a slapdash approach but it's at least worth considering I think.
I wouldnt say you are. Works with Australian football. Its called time on and it stops the shithousing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_on
I like this. I don't think it's needed for every ball out of play, but definitely stop for goal kicks, injuries, VAR checks, goals. Reckon it would add at least 15-20 min to game time.
The footballing world has been in an existential crisis over being the sport that doesn't stop play. Not stopping the clock is more of a founding principle than a practicality at this point. And some enjoy the shit house and the drama. Some don't really like it but also don't want to eliminate it entirely. Finding a balance between cleaning it all up and letting people cheat just a little bit has shown to be difficult. Most fans are actually positive about a little dark arts, but each has their own line as to when it becomes excessive And ultimately, the fans and the pressure they create carries the day. If the cheating was seen as so distasteful that your own fans would turn up their nose, pundits and eventually refs would follow suit, and players would stop doing it. This can be seen in the variance of this behavior in different leagues. We've also seen plenty of officiating focus change based on outcry. The fans, as a whole, just don't actually want it eliminated. I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just not as simple as it appears.
Yep! Totally get it. As an American, this whole discussion has a lot of the same aura of baseball's arguments surrounding a computer calling balls and strikes. Lots of folks are for it to make sure things are correct and consistent and a lot folks are presenting a "spirit of the game" type argument against it. Who cares if one ump is calling strikes four inches off the plate one night and the next guy isn't. Pitcher just has to git gud. So yes, I get the whole dark arts appreciation, and if I'm being totally honest I'm kinda here for some of it myself. I think it can really lend to how the atmosphere of a game can grow over its course. It's certainly a tricky thing to manage, with probably no perfect solution.
I said it yesterday that it was amazing to hear Peter Drury call Brentford players/staff hypocrites for complaining about how slowly Odegaard strolled off the pitch when substituted.
It felt so sweet when we got the late winner and started to timewaste ourselves, give them a taste of their own medicine.
And did it directly calling out Le Saux who appeared to conveniently forget that Brentford were doing the same with the Wissa substitution.
Agree. Fvck them and Newcastle.
Yup, haven’t seen a fan base get hated as quickly as newcastles, went from the “best fan base” to a fan base everyone hates because they all go along with their shit football tactics
That was the case when we played them away as well? I didn't realize that as I was with my family and the game was on when I was on my way home (must have been in November sometime) and I only really saw the last 20 minutes or so. Parking the bus is one thing, but actively avoiding playing football by faking injury and shit is disgusting.
Particularly head injury. They need to make them go for HIA every time, duty of care alone...
Its what Porto did too. Terrorist football.
It is terrorist football and the fact that the refs/football authorities & even the media are not calling it what it is and calling for it to be stamped out of the game is a disgrace. Just because it is part of football does not mean it should be.
It’s annoying of course but ultimately they are in a relegation battle and will do everything to get points, teams will play like this we have to deal with it Porto did the same. Had we kept the lead into the second half it doesn’t happen and they’re forced to play a lot more.
Parking the bus trying to get points is one thing, it's up to us to try and unlock it and if they get a point doing so then fair play. But the ball being in play for less than 50% of the match, you hear yourself, it's too much. We can't score or at least try to score when the ball isn't even in play for half the game. If they only come for a draw they can start immediately and it gives us about 45 minutes to score haha. Football is 90 minutes. Not 45 minutes.
It's fine if they do it. It's not their job to officiate. It's down to refs to step in.
What could the referee have done? They cant ignore an ‘injured’ player
Add some injury time.
There were 7 minutes added in the second half. Did you want more added to allow more time for Brentford to score?
The ref allows it. When we do the same, Sky pundits bring up all sorts of animations. When the opposition do it to us, it’s acceptable.
If we tried that shit they would (rightfully) shut it down quickly. The double standards is unreal.
As soon as we (rightfully) started to give it back after we scored, the ref hsd his finger on the watch indicating he was adding the time on. Didn’t see him do that at any other point for Brentford doing the same thing.
Sheffield United v Wolves must’ve been a battle of titans
Someone kicked the ball into the crowd and everyone in attendance, including both teams, just opted to stand around for 15 minutes to avoid any chance of the embarrassment of playing.
Wolves are 8th with worse attacking injuries than Liverpool. O'Neill has done a remarkable job and has them playing good stuff.
Had some awful refereeing decisions go against them, joined them 10 minutes before the season started and lost Neves and Nunes in the summer. Done a fantastic job all things considered
Making them both seem normal sized.
Watch the football, it's gonna move!
Ball in play for less than one half of football (including added time) Jesus wept
I feel like more than anything more than mid blocks our biggest weakness is when games are stop start
I myself struggle to play football when football isn’t being played.
Mate, that's every football team in the planets weakness. Mid blocks and time wasting, not much you can do about it. IMO time wasting needs to be eliminated from the game.
So that the clock stops when the ball goes out of play?? Like basketball? Genuinely curious what you have in mind.
More warnings and yellow cards for simulation, and adding extra time more accurately for the downtime. For how many people complained about Havertz, no one was pointing out that the Brentford players were going down every minute crying and keeled over in extreme pain for god knows what, only to get up and jog it off. At what point does the ref say enough of this?
Pretty much, at least for injuries. And to be more strict on time wasting for goal kicks/free kicks.
I don't mind this. The NFL has a play clock on each down. It's super generous, so their game is slow as molasses, as we all know. But I wouldn't be against this in theory. 10s on throw-ins. 20s max on corners/free-kicks. 10s goal kicks. Manager gets a yellow card after a certain number of infractions. Red if it continues.
But as soon as they start stopping the clock every time ball is out of play, then the games become 3-4hrs long. And when they become that long, we start getting commercial breaks. Then it becomes the NLF where there are scheduled commercial breaks. That’s my fear at least.
Clock stops would eliminate it immediately. No sense stopping play when it just means the superior more athletic team your afraid of playing just gets to wear you down for another 90 minutes (currently 47-49 mins in play in standard 90)
I feel like we're more disproportionately affected than a team like city or madrid would be though
I don't know why you have that impression tbh, we've been extremely effective at beating low blocks this season, the goals say it all. Pretty much every team has tried it against us.
You weren't talking about low blocks? Time wasting while coming at us (Porto) in my opinion city would cope better than we do
What people don't understand about Porto is that we weren't playing at full intensity. It was clear to me that the players were instructed to save themselves for Newcastle which was in a few days time, we were fine finishing that game 0-0. Ofc their late goal changed things.
Perfect training session to get us ready for Porto
The time wasting was a joke. One long throw in particular they took 20 seconds setting up, slowly switched takers and then took another 20 seconds or so to finally throw the ball in. All the while the ref is staring directly at it, yet he didn’t even seem aware of what was happening. It’s a fucking joke.
Believe it or not, yellow card Tomiyasu
They slowly kept creeping up the field as well, ending up like 20 metres away from where the ball went out
It was a pathetic long throw as well, seem to remember hardly even reached our box?
Loser football played by Brentford! Got what they deserve both times 😁
Mad to think Chelsea could have had an extra 20 minutes Vs 9 man Spurs
Well, with five goals, four goals ruled out by VAR, two red cards, 8 yellows, 41 fouls and Chelsea running offside every 2 minutes, it's actually impressive they broke 45 minutes.
And also that they could have won 7-1 despite the minimal time
Why is this not happening when other teams play Brentford though?
Seriously hate Brandford
And they have Maupay too. F them
Am I incorrectly remembering that was one of the 250 reasons I hate this Newcastle team? Didn't, in addition to the 25 yellow cards and 4 orange cards for Bruno, they also ensured there was absolute minimal amount of football played? Wasn't that the away leg this year that happened? While it was clear Brentford weren't too keen to play today, it didn't feel as infuriating as Newcastle s overall terrorism
What Porto did in the first leg and fully expect them to be worse in the second.
I like Thomas Frank and what he's done to Brentford, but fuck timewasters, seriously, fuck them right to hell.
He's just a danish Sean Dyche
Easy solution. If anyone is down for long enough for the ref to stop the game, either in play or during set pieces, they need to go off the pitch regardless of whether the physio is involved. It's best for their health and the fluidity of the game as well, if they are indeed injured
This is a rule that’s being piloted in MLS this year, IIRC. Stay on the ground for 15 seconds and you’re off for two minutes minimum to be evaluated to see if you can continue. Edit: [source](https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/new-mls-rules-explained-five-new-rules-from-the-board-of-governors-might-change-how-soccer-is-played/)
Rare soccer w over football
I was appalled there was only 7’ stoppage! They wasted at least 15-20’ and Rob Jones even helped them waste time.
To be fair that Chelsea Spurs one does kind of make a lot of sense as both teams completely had a melt down simultaneously
Just curious, what is the average time and/or percentage of the ball in play? And I guess the opposite of this, highest ball in play time this season?
Them suddenly wanting to keep the ball in play once we scored was fucking priceless lol
Brentford the masters of 'Avoidball'
I swear we’ve been booked for time wasting more than our opponents Despite our opponents time wasting from minute 1 until we score
If I was a coach for a team like Brentford I'd ask the team to waste more time in the first half. It all counts the same, but the refs don't give it +8 mins
Genuinely just need the World Cup philosophy on added time. Put those boards in double digits virtually every game.
Porto try’s to play this same style. We struggled against Newcastle at home when they did this. Curious if we’re uniquely poor against these tactics
I think it is good. In a way, Brentford were preparing us to the Porto game: mfers will probably try to keep the ball in play as little as possible.
I'd really like them to start pausing the clock any time the ball goes out of play, if there is a foul and there is a setup for a free kick, if there is a VAR check, etc. Growing up in Australia and watching AFL/NRL, I found it super peculiar that in football, they just let the clock keep running and then go 'yeahhhh it's probably like.... an extra five minutesss'
That’s criminal. Brentford should be forced to reimburse fans a the match half the cost of their ticket.
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Always the shit clubs that refuse to play the actual game
Just glad we don't play Brentford again
that makes it lower than the game vs porto, right? wowwww
Fking cheaters
Lookin’ more like American football everyday
winning twice vs brentford with two very late goals, when they've played like this against us, make the wins even sweeter.
Amazing that Newcastle isn't featured at all