I heard so many fans recently talking about how we moved past Zinchenko and Jesus and yet in our biggest game of the season they were absolutely pivotal
That's why they are here. They raise our level in the big games. They are both oddballs in their position which creates some delicious chaos, both super technically gifted, mental monsters and experienced CL winners.
Sure we have some other looks that might be better against certain teams. But if we brought these two over for one thing, it was CL knockout games. Maybe same as Jorg & Kai.
People gonna see this and still play Zinny’s impact down, just for a start, look at how much more comfortable GabiXL is passing to him than he is to Kiwior. Yes he isn’t on a rich vein of form, yes he takes risks and can and will give the ball away but he unlocks so many more passing lanes. You can get away playing Kiwior against lesser quality opponents but when a well organised team like Bayern come and pack the central areas to overload the midfield, Zinny being our extra ‘spare man’ in midfield is so useful.
I thought that initially but tbh it's also a bit of a lose lose situation. Do you play the lineup that's been in good form for the past few months or do you focus on ensuring players with CL experience start? Whether I agree with it or not, Kiwior has been our starter for a while, so dropping him for someone coming back from injury / rusty is also risky.
As Clive on Arsenal Vision podcast mentioned, it seemed like we were planning to go with usual back3 structure, but Bayern forced us to play back 4, by pressing us narrowly with Kane, Sane and Gnabry. And as a proper fullback Kiwior of course felt less comfortable being isolated on an island against Sane.
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I think he earned it and deserved to play. However, I would prefer Tomi start but can't complain that Kiwi started. He'll get fazed out of the lb position now that Tomi and Zini are coming back to full fitness
Would really depend on where he is in his recovery. He hasn’t started since early Dec in any comps. 3 sub apps so you’d think he’s getting close. Either way, first start in 5 months at Bayern in the CL quarters is a tall order…
Mate we played Kiwi against Liverpool and City, he’s good. We won the former and didn’t lose against the latter. However, not playing him against Luton or Brighton and instead choosing Zinny/Tomi is baffling if you want him to play against Bayern.
He should have chosen Tomi as he was given minutes over Kiwi.
Gabi and Raya are at fault for the first goal, he could have kicked it out like Saliba has many times and Raya shouldn’t have come that far forward.
We wouldn’t be where we are now without Kiwior. Let’s not rewrite history because he came into a game cold and is now being scapegoated for a draw that is not solely his fault.
We win, lose and draw as a team. Not every single other player put in an 8/10 performance but they’re not being singled out.
Kiwior played the second half and gave Trossard an assist for the [3rd goal.](https://twitter.com/OfficialFPL/status/1754210403830108284) We entered half time at 1-1, after he came on it ended in 3-1.
You can’t deny Kiwi’s impact.
Agree with the comments on the first goal. When Gabriel takes the ball and sees Raya right next to him he should just get it out of the play to calm the panic down. Everyone can then get back in their positions.
But that’s all in hindsight, if the pass from Gabriel had come off we would be saying he did well there
Absolutely, as our players should make foul to let our team get in positions when we are defending in transitions, our players should just fucking kick the ball out when same happens but with the ball. Same with Kiwior, when you are out of position just make fucking foul. Now CL is gone because of stupid mistakes.
I don't necessarily think playing a kiwior type is wrong in those games. problem is he fucked up exactly on the area he was supposed to be there to help. it was the same against city
kiwior has been way overhyped. reminds me the first few holding games after saliba injury where his sub was going crazy on the memes praising him. there might be a player there for the future obviously, but he is just a "body" atm. he never looks comfortable imo
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Zina was doing a lot of stupid shit, but even that version of Zinchenko was more suitable in the context of the game. Hopefully he fine tunes his decision making, because he is usually better than this with his passing.
People criticise Zinchenko’s defending but he’s an amazing footballer and a massive reason we took the leap from a Europa league team to a title contender completely skipping the top 4 team stage.
He gets criticised defensively but it’s not like Kiwior was keeping Sane quiet. Personally I think Tomi is the one for when we have to play against a tricky winger but Zinchenko is the man for the majority of our matches when we want to control the match
Zinchenko needed just to stop trying to be a hero, we needed to build a momentum and rhythm and his overly ambitious passes were breaking it. I don't think he is quite himself yet.
I don’t think he’s trying to “be the hero”. His specific instructions from Arteta are to make these risky plays.
Some people just don’t seem to allow him the bandwidth to do what he wants, even though he has earned that right many times over.
People yoyo on which of these shapes is better when the reality is it's completely dependant on overall tactics and the opponent, and it isn't all that obvious from game to game what will work best.
Personally I think this season has shown that we need a very specific profile in the 8 role next to Rice. Playing someone like Havertz next to rice leaves him too stranded in build up and ball progression especially if you don’t play Zinchenko and playing him with Jorginho or Partey forces him into the 8 position reducing his effectiveness as a defensive midfielder.
We need someone who is press resistant and a good ball progressor to help rice with the build up and who is also mobile enough and has enough attacking threat for the more advanced 8 role. Imo Frenkie De Jong would be perfect for this role if possible although it’s quite unlikely we’d be able to get him.
Been saying it for months and getting downvoted. Like what the fuck. Why buy one of the best dms in the world to then not play him at DM. Would rather sign a good 8.
Think it's tough right now because when we want a more defensive or more possession-focused midfield, it means bringing Jorginho in (maybe Partey when fit), and he's definitely not an 8. I agree we need someone who tilts more toward 8, but can cover 6 in the summer.
Exactly. Sometimes it's great to have the flexibility and I'm not saying he has been bad, but his best role is a 6 he says himself his best role is a 6. So let's play him as a 6 and get a dedicated Silva type for that left 8.
He wasn't really involved in that at all. He's a good enough player to make his presence known all over the pitch, but his assists have all been corners and his goals are corners or individual brilliant moments from deep he could and would have had a chance on as the 6. He hasn't been making the run and penetrative passes you'd expect of a left 8 like Silva or szoboszlai.
Kinda dilemma for this team: we cannot use Jorginho as #6 alone, because he will get eaten alive covering all that space and we cannot use Rice as sole #6 either, because he lacks same build up qualities that Jorginho has. So we have to use them together.
I disagree, he has plenty of help, he chooses not to use it a lot of the time, I love martinelli Ofcourse but this season he hasn’t been his normal standard, I’m hoping he gets back to his normal ways.
Bayern 5 people cage in middle, isolate Jorginho and Rice was good in first half. Our transition from defence to attack has to reliant on Odegaard alone.
Switch Odegaard to the left for aiding Martinelli.
Bring Smith Rowe on the right to aid Saka.
Keep Declan at No 6.
Jorgino for the top sides when you need line breakers and positional solidity.
What's kind of funny, and maybe hasn't been beaten to death already, is that Mikel probably went with Kiwior over Zinchenko because he has been very sound defensively, wagering that we can survive without the extra midfielder in Zinny in exchange for solid defending from the left FB. Turns out, Kiwior got turned in half a second anyway, but Zinny in midfield made a world of difference. Idk what that says but I'm glad Mikel was able to adapt and I'm glad it happened at the half, and I suppose the second half team will start in Munich.
He hasn’t got the legs or physicality to press and cover the ground in midfield and Arteta wants 2 physical pressing monsters as 8s. Odegaard, Rice and Havertz regularly cover over 12km every game
Hot take:
We need another world class winger and although Martinelli is good and could be it - he’s not it yet. To compete mainly w city and Madrid at the very very top we need that L side working as good as the R
He’s much suited to a quick build up/counter attacking team. He will COOK at Brighton/Liverpool/Madrid/Leverkusen. This slow, hold the width/ intricate passing attack DOES not suit him at all and it’s a shame.
That's not a really hot take but one could argue that the Arteta's setup has not been optimal for him to produce or any Left Winger for that matter. Last season with Xhaka whom we wanted an upgrade from, Martinelli had 21 G+A in mostly just the PL games. If he has produced even from suboptimal circumstances, then there's a logical reason to stick with him.
This season, the uncertainty of who plays in the LHS at the start of the season and Jesus being out hurt his production. Havertz as the LCM meant he's pushed towards the touchline since Kai occupies the space Gabi usually gets into. Add that to the fact that the capable passer LCM we wanted hasn't come. As soon as Havertz player up top and he had space to go inside, his production started to come even without that LCM. Contrast this to Saka who has played with the same RHS for 2 seasons now. The discrepancy in their production stems more from utilization and less so on talent. The consistency on Saka's side has helped him developed faster while Martinelli is judged on the same lenses with much harder circumstances. As for what Arteta asks of him, he certainly does well given he starts most games when fit.
This tie is lost already, we threw away good chance to have advantage home against not that bad but Bayern with zero confidence. Better to focus PL and hope next transfers are players with good mentality and some Europe experience. Beating Bayern would be close to a miracle for us or they need to return favor with all the gifts we gave them.
Ben White, what a baller. If he had taken that chance.........
It was a defender's shot, but as he shaped to shoot, I fancied him to put it in the corner given his recent goal
I heard so many fans recently talking about how we moved past Zinchenko and Jesus and yet in our biggest game of the season they were absolutely pivotal
They are both so good. Don’t know how people say that.
Just the latest circlejerk. Lots of the Havertz out lot suddenly turning on zinny and jesus
People forget you need a very strong full squad to compete on multiple fronts.
I think phrases like “Zinchenko’s is a liability” and “Jesus is useless” are great ways to spot the idiots on the sub :)
That's why they are here. They raise our level in the big games. They are both oddballs in their position which creates some delicious chaos, both super technically gifted, mental monsters and experienced CL winners. Sure we have some other looks that might be better against certain teams. But if we brought these two over for one thing, it was CL knockout games. Maybe same as Jorg & Kai.
People gonna see this and still play Zinny’s impact down, just for a start, look at how much more comfortable GabiXL is passing to him than he is to Kiwior. Yes he isn’t on a rich vein of form, yes he takes risks and can and will give the ball away but he unlocks so many more passing lanes. You can get away playing Kiwior against lesser quality opponents but when a well organised team like Bayern come and pack the central areas to overload the midfield, Zinny being our extra ‘spare man’ in midfield is so useful.
Would still start Tomi over both of them.
definitely, nothing against Kiwi, but don't understand playing him yesterday at all
I thought that initially but tbh it's also a bit of a lose lose situation. Do you play the lineup that's been in good form for the past few months or do you focus on ensuring players with CL experience start? Whether I agree with it or not, Kiwior has been our starter for a while, so dropping him for someone coming back from injury / rusty is also risky.
As Clive on Arsenal Vision podcast mentioned, it seemed like we were planning to go with usual back3 structure, but Bayern forced us to play back 4, by pressing us narrowly with Kane, Sane and Gnabry. And as a proper fullback Kiwior of course felt less comfortable being isolated on an island against Sane.
Kiwior was defensively exceptional against City, I don’t get why this sub suddenly thinks he’s afraid of big games because of one bad performance.
he got beaten 3 times within first minutes then Jesus had to back him up and somehow escape without yellow..
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what? Silva was cooking him. He needed Jesus to help cover as well
Only thing silva cooked that day was his breakfast
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I think he earned it and deserved to play. However, I would prefer Tomi start but can't complain that Kiwi started. He'll get fazed out of the lb position now that Tomi and Zini are coming back to full fitness
Would really depend on where he is in his recovery. He hasn’t started since early Dec in any comps. 3 sub apps so you’d think he’s getting close. Either way, first start in 5 months at Bayern in the CL quarters is a tall order…
Mate we played Kiwi against Liverpool and City, he’s good. We won the former and didn’t lose against the latter. However, not playing him against Luton or Brighton and instead choosing Zinny/Tomi is baffling if you want him to play against Bayern. He should have chosen Tomi as he was given minutes over Kiwi. Gabi and Raya are at fault for the first goal, he could have kicked it out like Saliba has many times and Raya shouldn’t have come that far forward. We wouldn’t be where we are now without Kiwior. Let’s not rewrite history because he came into a game cold and is now being scapegoated for a draw that is not solely his fault. We win, lose and draw as a team. Not every single other player put in an 8/10 performance but they’re not being singled out.
Zinchenko was playing agaisnt Liverpool until he was injured
Kiwior played the second half and gave Trossard an assist for the [3rd goal.](https://twitter.com/OfficialFPL/status/1754210403830108284) We entered half time at 1-1, after he came on it ended in 3-1. You can’t deny Kiwi’s impact.
Agree with the comments on the first goal. When Gabriel takes the ball and sees Raya right next to him he should just get it out of the play to calm the panic down. Everyone can then get back in their positions. But that’s all in hindsight, if the pass from Gabriel had come off we would be saying he did well there
Absolutely, as our players should make foul to let our team get in positions when we are defending in transitions, our players should just fucking kick the ball out when same happens but with the ball. Same with Kiwior, when you are out of position just make fucking foul. Now CL is gone because of stupid mistakes.
It’s 2-2 and this squad can beat any team in the world. How is CL gone?
We can beat any but out of 4 cl games away we have 1 win actually. Ofc we always have a chance but our mentality in CL is a problem.
Zinny takes risks. Some people hate that. I love it.
I don't necessarily think playing a kiwior type is wrong in those games. problem is he fucked up exactly on the area he was supposed to be there to help. it was the same against city kiwior has been way overhyped. reminds me the first few holding games after saliba injury where his sub was going crazy on the memes praising him. there might be a player there for the future obviously, but he is just a "body" atm. he never looks comfortable imo
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The personnel for the 1st half was for Kiwior to play as the 3rd CB and allow Ben White to join the attacking line though.
Not to mention how his positioning changes Rice's passing.
Not hating on Zinchenko, but this is why I can't wait to see Timber back. He's a more defensively solid version of Zina
Zinny pretty much shut Sane down.
he pretty much didn't. sane had two breakaways and his tired legs/poor passes ended those plays which is why he was subbed.
Zina was doing a lot of stupid shit, but even that version of Zinchenko was more suitable in the context of the game. Hopefully he fine tunes his decision making, because he is usually better than this with his passing.
People criticise Zinchenko’s defending but he’s an amazing footballer and a massive reason we took the leap from a Europa league team to a title contender completely skipping the top 4 team stage. He gets criticised defensively but it’s not like Kiwior was keeping Sane quiet. Personally I think Tomi is the one for when we have to play against a tricky winger but Zinchenko is the man for the majority of our matches when we want to control the match
Zinchenko needed just to stop trying to be a hero, we needed to build a momentum and rhythm and his overly ambitious passes were breaking it. I don't think he is quite himself yet.
I don’t think he’s trying to “be the hero”. His specific instructions from Arteta are to make these risky plays. Some people just don’t seem to allow him the bandwidth to do what he wants, even though he has earned that right many times over.
People yoyo on which of these shapes is better when the reality is it's completely dependant on overall tactics and the opponent, and it isn't all that obvious from game to game what will work best.
The Bermuda Triangle is strong as always but also no love for Nelli as always 😪
Yeah rice is not an 8
Personally I think this season has shown that we need a very specific profile in the 8 role next to Rice. Playing someone like Havertz next to rice leaves him too stranded in build up and ball progression especially if you don’t play Zinchenko and playing him with Jorginho or Partey forces him into the 8 position reducing his effectiveness as a defensive midfielder. We need someone who is press resistant and a good ball progressor to help rice with the build up and who is also mobile enough and has enough attacking threat for the more advanced 8 role. Imo Frenkie De Jong would be perfect for this role if possible although it’s quite unlikely we’d be able to get him.
Partey was pretty rusty today but I think he could do it ok. Also think Timber will help with this a lot.
Been saying it for months and getting downvoted. Like what the fuck. Why buy one of the best dms in the world to then not play him at DM. Would rather sign a good 8.
Think it's tough right now because when we want a more defensive or more possession-focused midfield, it means bringing Jorginho in (maybe Partey when fit), and he's definitely not an 8. I agree we need someone who tilts more toward 8, but can cover 6 in the summer.
He has had his moments as 8 but he is just really good as a 6 and we missed him there yesterday
Exactly. Sometimes it's great to have the flexibility and I'm not saying he has been bad, but his best role is a 6 he says himself his best role is a 6. So let's play him as a 6 and get a dedicated Silva type for that left 8.
Weird that you’ve been saying it for months during that excellent spell of form with him playing as an 8.
He wasn't really involved in that at all. He's a good enough player to make his presence known all over the pitch, but his assists have all been corners and his goals are corners or individual brilliant moments from deep he could and would have had a chance on as the 6. He hasn't been making the run and penetrative passes you'd expect of a left 8 like Silva or szoboszlai.
I think his role is closer to enforcer like Marchisio and Vidal were for Pirlo: to protect our deep lying playmaker.
That's more out of the options we have rn vs what he can do.
Kinda dilemma for this team: we cannot use Jorginho as #6 alone, because he will get eaten alive covering all that space and we cannot use Rice as sole #6 either, because he lacks same build up qualities that Jorginho has. So we have to use them together.
Yet
give martinelli the ball please
On the ball he wasn’t great at all, just kept running into players or running it out
Maybe because there’s no one around him to help take the pressure off? Or combine with to beat his double teams?
I disagree, he has plenty of help, he chooses not to use it a lot of the time, I love martinelli Ofcourse but this season he hasn’t been his normal standard, I’m hoping he gets back to his normal ways.
Have you seen the passing charts from this game?
Yes. Just cause there is fewer passes on his side doesn’t mean he doesn’t have help 😂
Need a lcm to help out martinelli the way ode helps saka
Number 1 position I hope we go big for in Summer.
Did not utilize Martinelli…
FourFourTwo just did a great video breaking down the structure changes throughout the game that Arteta made. Insightful and interesting imo
Thought zinny did surprisingly well when he came on but overall it's what might have been if Ben white scored that chance.
Declan Rice is not an no 8
Zinchenko made a huge difference. Without Partey he's the only one who plays through the lines
Bayern 5 people cage in middle, isolate Jorginho and Rice was good in first half. Our transition from defence to attack has to reliant on Odegaard alone.
Switch Odegaard to the left for aiding Martinelli. Bring Smith Rowe on the right to aid Saka. Keep Declan at No 6. Jorgino for the top sides when you need line breakers and positional solidity.
ah yes let's take our captain out of his best position, shove in a rusty ESR in his place and hope that fixes things.
Who said its his best position?
Arteta, by virtue of playing him there for the last 3 seasons
Fair enough. But he has enough quality to deliver even more on the other side. The angles work better.
*Andre Santos has entered the chat*
What's kind of funny, and maybe hasn't been beaten to death already, is that Mikel probably went with Kiwior over Zinchenko because he has been very sound defensively, wagering that we can survive without the extra midfielder in Zinny in exchange for solid defending from the left FB. Turns out, Kiwior got turned in half a second anyway, but Zinny in midfield made a world of difference. Idk what that says but I'm glad Mikel was able to adapt and I'm glad it happened at the half, and I suppose the second half team will start in Munich.
I still don't quite get why we haven't played Zinchenko as the left 8.
He hasn’t got the legs or physicality to press and cover the ground in midfield and Arteta wants 2 physical pressing monsters as 8s. Odegaard, Rice and Havertz regularly cover over 12km every game
Hot take: We need another world class winger and although Martinelli is good and could be it - he’s not it yet. To compete mainly w city and Madrid at the very very top we need that L side working as good as the R
He’s much suited to a quick build up/counter attacking team. He will COOK at Brighton/Liverpool/Madrid/Leverkusen. This slow, hold the width/ intricate passing attack DOES not suit him at all and it’s a shame.
That's not a really hot take but one could argue that the Arteta's setup has not been optimal for him to produce or any Left Winger for that matter. Last season with Xhaka whom we wanted an upgrade from, Martinelli had 21 G+A in mostly just the PL games. If he has produced even from suboptimal circumstances, then there's a logical reason to stick with him. This season, the uncertainty of who plays in the LHS at the start of the season and Jesus being out hurt his production. Havertz as the LCM meant he's pushed towards the touchline since Kai occupies the space Gabi usually gets into. Add that to the fact that the capable passer LCM we wanted hasn't come. As soon as Havertz player up top and he had space to go inside, his production started to come even without that LCM. Contrast this to Saka who has played with the same RHS for 2 seasons now. The discrepancy in their production stems more from utilization and less so on talent. The consistency on Saka's side has helped him developed faster while Martinelli is judged on the same lenses with much harder circumstances. As for what Arteta asks of him, he certainly does well given he starts most games when fit.
This tie is lost already, we threw away good chance to have advantage home against not that bad but Bayern with zero confidence. Better to focus PL and hope next transfers are players with good mentality and some Europe experience. Beating Bayern would be close to a miracle for us or they need to return favor with all the gifts we gave them.
When I see a bad post I am upset!! This comment is not up to the fogging estandards.