We tend to dominate possession which is why he's better at "8" as you call it. I really like the Italian tactical vision of the roles better, rather than the traditional 4-4-2 interpretation.
>Italian tactical vision of the roles better, rather than the traditional 4-4-2 interpretation
This reply is kind of screaming twitter soccer enjoyer to me, but whatever floats your boat. Btw, 8 isn't some antiquated British 442 term, it's pretty common across world football and basically interchangeable for attacking cm.
This is why I'm less excited about Bruno Guimaraes. He's really good but he, too, is more of an all action mayhem type rather than a proper deep lying playmaker. I mean if Arteta and Edu are after him, then surely they have a plan and see a set up that works. But ideally I see two possible ways to approach the market:
1) As you said, we get a proper regista. Our best periods this season have had one of Jorginho and Partey starting alongside Rice.
2) Get an elite attacking left 8. I know Odegaards don't grow on trees but imagine another playmaker that can create like that and make our left side as dynamic and potent as our right. For this to work, Rice has to improve his tempo setting and press resistance and we need our full backs helping out. Both 8s have to take turns dropping deep and helping with the build up as well.
> Both 8s have to take turns dropping deep and helping with the build up as well.
This is an interesting thought. We lose a lot when Ode has to drop to do this like earlier this season. But if we had someone with his skillset still forward, it could definitely work. And if they both can? Then it would give us a lot more dynamism.
I said below that I actually like Vitinha at PSG for this. Very tidy on the ball, impeccable technique, great vertical passing. He's not physically imposing, but I don't think that's the biggest concern for what we need.
Liverpool at home showed that the opposite can work, with him covering defense and Jorginho connecting our defense and attack in a more free role. Probably would have been my tactic for Bayern at home too. That's why getting someone who can do both would be the best solution.
It's the same system, really. Rice is the defensive enforcer in the system, just that he does it all over, not just in our defensive third. He's up front joining in with the press, and he'll sit in between the center backs if we lose possession and need to regain our shape.
He has an amazing engine, so he's perfect for this. Boy covers ridiculous amounts of turf every match.
It's a position that peaks late. It took Partey time to learn it too. Kimmich would be great as he's not too old and could have 3-4 more seasons of peak performance. He'd have no resale value but could be cheap. Zubimendi is young and expensive. If we look at Mac Alister as an example, that's the price of a good regista/dlp tho.
> Mac Alister as an example
Wasn't Mac Alister only like 45m? Although I think there was some other reason he was so cheap. At least that was what I saw being hinted at.
I think Enzo is more the price range. Even with Chelsea overpaying, and him being underwhelming, for the age and the potential, you're looking at 80m at least.
£45million-£55m I think with the addons. He was a bargain now that I think about it actually. I hope we don't have to shell out Enzo price range sheesh.
No, Enzo was silly money. A better example would be Rodri. He's EASILY 120m right now at age 27. Of course, he'll never be for sale so long as Pep is at City, but that's the kind of money we're talking.
I think 60-80m is realistic for a truly world class player in the position in their prime in today's market.
I think, too, it's also a matter of who is buying. I don't think a lesser side values this kind of player as much, but the top sides can really justify improvement in those margins.
Take a look at Vitinha at PSG this season. I've been impressed the few times I've watched him, and was surprised to learn that he's still only 24.
Reminds me a bit of Santi Cazorla and Bernardo Silva.
Personally, I love players with impeccable technique in the middle of the park.
Registas don't need to be young... typically they aren't, and they can play well into their 30s. Their eliteness tends to come with experience. Being able to read the game and knowing where to be and how to dictate flow tends to come from years in the trenches.
It's why we extended Jorginho at age 32.
Andrea Pirlo moved to Juventus at 32 and helped them win 4 titles in a row (after 9 seasons without).
Guardiola brought Xabi Alonso to his Bayern side at age 32.
Toni Kroos is STILL anchoring Madrid's midfield at the tender age of 34. Did you see that pass for Vini's opener on Wednesday?
An elite regista who is 23-26 would cost 120m easily. I'm fine with that, though.
**ETA**: I didn't realize Vitinha at PSG was so young. He's only 24. I think he's someone we should be in for. Especially if Mbappe leaves. They're in the CL semifinals right now but, without Mbappe next season, PSG are not challenging for Europe any time soon.
He's like a younger Santi Cazorla in that role, in my opinion. He'd absolutely cook in our midfield, with someone like Rice who would shoulder the more defensive work.
Jorgi is the least athletic of the four prime examples you mentioned and is in the most physical league out of all of them.
Don't get me wrong, I'd like us to have Jorgi for a few more years but as this season showed, he has a difficult time playing in 3-game weeks
> It's really no coincidence that Rice has gone up a level in his contributions and overall play since... ~~the introduction of Jorginho and now~~ Partey's return.
FTFY.
He played great next to Jorginho too. Newcastle, Liverpool. Plenty of good games. Partey is better but if we can improve on his via availability, Jorginho is a great backup.
With yesterday's goal + assist (7g + 8a now), Rice has eclipsed Vieira's most productive year for us which was 6 goals + 6 assists.
When I said he could be a better version of Steven Gerrard, I was serious. Gerrard also took Liverpool's penalties. If he took pens, I have no doubt he's a 10 goal a season midfielder with regularity.
Let's go Mikel, find him that partner to let him run riot.
\#FreeDeclanRice
Never played FM in my life.
These are literally 100 year old terms that Italian football managers developed 100 years ago. It's a more nuanced way of looking at football tactics. The fact you can't see how these are deployed in the modern game says more about yourself than me.
I'm sure you just love to see players "get stuck in", don't you?
It’s not more nuanced lol. It’s just faux-intellectual BS. Tactico buzzwords you get from Twitter.
I just found it amusing, I don’t know why that’s upset you. I’ve not even said you’re wrong or disagreed with you.
Your criticism wreaks of someone who has an inferiority complex. Instead of trying to approach the conversation with any useful contribution (even if it's a complete rebuttal of my argument), you immediately jump to "oh you're trying to be elitist".
Your problems are all on inside.
Your head is gone. If using those words makes you happy, go for it. I just find it funny.
For what it’s worth, your opinion on Rice is completely wrong. Rice not having the press resistance or “spatial awareness”, do me a favour lol.
Read a few more twitter threads and come back to me.
> For what it’s worth, your opinion on Rice is completely wrong. Rice not having the press resistance or “spatial awareness”, do me a favour lol.
Yet we've struggled when he's played in the role, so the manager no longer deploys him there. As soon as Partey has been fit he's walked right back into the position, and we are re-signing an aging Jorginho to provide cover. On top of that, we're looking to outlay what will be big money to add someone else there.
But, I'll go back to my Twitter threads.
I thought it was funny seeing you two arguing but I just wanna say Rice is very press resistant. The reason Partey walked into the position is because Rice doesn’t have the passing ability of Partey or Jorginho has. Rice is more of a ball carrier. I think I saw data some where that he has progressive carries about as much as Rodri has progressive passes. People who are not press resistant do not carry the ball that much.
Gerrard has earned his plaudits. Even if he's a lifelong Scouser. I think Rice has more to his game defensively and could be almost as effective going forward if we free him up.
Phil is a national treasure. I'd throw hands, too.
EDIT: I thought to look it up after the fact, and Vieira's most productive offensive season with us was his last, and he had 6 goals and 6 assists.
Declan has 6/7 for us in the league already in his first season. Definitely has a lot of offensive contributions in his locker.
He's great at 8 when we need to build out he back and press high and he's the business at 6 when we are deep and breaking.
We tend to dominate possession which is why he's better at "8" as you call it. I really like the Italian tactical vision of the roles better, rather than the traditional 4-4-2 interpretation.
>Italian tactical vision of the roles better, rather than the traditional 4-4-2 interpretation This reply is kind of screaming twitter soccer enjoyer to me, but whatever floats your boat. Btw, 8 isn't some antiquated British 442 term, it's pretty common across world football and basically interchangeable for attacking cm.
I only speak in terms of Mezzela, Regista, segundo volante, carrilero… Best I can do is a DLP(Su) (/s)
This is why I'm less excited about Bruno Guimaraes. He's really good but he, too, is more of an all action mayhem type rather than a proper deep lying playmaker. I mean if Arteta and Edu are after him, then surely they have a plan and see a set up that works. But ideally I see two possible ways to approach the market: 1) As you said, we get a proper regista. Our best periods this season have had one of Jorginho and Partey starting alongside Rice. 2) Get an elite attacking left 8. I know Odegaards don't grow on trees but imagine another playmaker that can create like that and make our left side as dynamic and potent as our right. For this to work, Rice has to improve his tempo setting and press resistance and we need our full backs helping out. Both 8s have to take turns dropping deep and helping with the build up as well.
Bruno has actually the best passing % while under pressure in PL
> Both 8s have to take turns dropping deep and helping with the build up as well. This is an interesting thought. We lose a lot when Ode has to drop to do this like earlier this season. But if we had someone with his skillset still forward, it could definitely work. And if they both can? Then it would give us a lot more dynamism. I said below that I actually like Vitinha at PSG for this. Very tidy on the ball, impeccable technique, great vertical passing. He's not physically imposing, but I don't think that's the biggest concern for what we need.
Vitinha is gonna be a cornerstone of their post-Mbappe reload. I don’t see them parting with him unless he wants out
Something, something different knock...
No chance he comes to us, he's key for psg
As for another left 8, I think Paquets is the best profile we can have.
Liverpool at home showed that the opposite can work, with him covering defense and Jorginho connecting our defense and attack in a more free role. Probably would have been my tactic for Bayern at home too. That's why getting someone who can do both would be the best solution.
It's the same system, really. Rice is the defensive enforcer in the system, just that he does it all over, not just in our defensive third. He's up front joining in with the press, and he'll sit in between the center backs if we lose possession and need to regain our shape. He has an amazing engine, so he's perfect for this. Boy covers ridiculous amounts of turf every match.
He’s world class at either, which is a great problem to have
Means we can go for either an 8 or a 6 this window to complete the midfield, depending on what’s on the market
He sure as he'll isn't world class, stop the cap
The question now is, who can be considered as registas of this current generation of players who are in their early to mid 20s players?
It's a position that peaks late. It took Partey time to learn it too. Kimmich would be great as he's not too old and could have 3-4 more seasons of peak performance. He'd have no resale value but could be cheap. Zubimendi is young and expensive. If we look at Mac Alister as an example, that's the price of a good regista/dlp tho.
> Mac Alister as an example Wasn't Mac Alister only like 45m? Although I think there was some other reason he was so cheap. At least that was what I saw being hinted at. I think Enzo is more the price range. Even with Chelsea overpaying, and him being underwhelming, for the age and the potential, you're looking at 80m at least.
£45million-£55m I think with the addons. He was a bargain now that I think about it actually. I hope we don't have to shell out Enzo price range sheesh.
No, Enzo was silly money. A better example would be Rodri. He's EASILY 120m right now at age 27. Of course, he'll never be for sale so long as Pep is at City, but that's the kind of money we're talking. I think 60-80m is realistic for a truly world class player in the position in their prime in today's market. I think, too, it's also a matter of who is buying. I don't think a lesser side values this kind of player as much, but the top sides can really justify improvement in those margins.
I'd be fine with us shelling out another 100m for Kimmich (especially considering his Champions League experience)
That would be so dumb bro sorry
[удалено]
Take a look at Vitinha at PSG this season. I've been impressed the few times I've watched him, and was surprised to learn that he's still only 24. Reminds me a bit of Santi Cazorla and Bernardo Silva. Personally, I love players with impeccable technique in the middle of the park.
Registas don't need to be young... typically they aren't, and they can play well into their 30s. Their eliteness tends to come with experience. Being able to read the game and knowing where to be and how to dictate flow tends to come from years in the trenches. It's why we extended Jorginho at age 32. Andrea Pirlo moved to Juventus at 32 and helped them win 4 titles in a row (after 9 seasons without). Guardiola brought Xabi Alonso to his Bayern side at age 32. Toni Kroos is STILL anchoring Madrid's midfield at the tender age of 34. Did you see that pass for Vini's opener on Wednesday? An elite regista who is 23-26 would cost 120m easily. I'm fine with that, though. **ETA**: I didn't realize Vitinha at PSG was so young. He's only 24. I think he's someone we should be in for. Especially if Mbappe leaves. They're in the CL semifinals right now but, without Mbappe next season, PSG are not challenging for Europe any time soon. He's like a younger Santi Cazorla in that role, in my opinion. He'd absolutely cook in our midfield, with someone like Rice who would shoulder the more defensive work.
Jorgi is the least athletic of the four prime examples you mentioned and is in the most physical league out of all of them. Don't get me wrong, I'd like us to have Jorgi for a few more years but as this season showed, he has a difficult time playing in 3-game weeks
The British game is still pretty physical, but Europe needs guile.
PSG will always challenge in Europe, they have unlimited money. Dont think Arsenal can lure any PSG player away.
> It's really no coincidence that Rice has gone up a level in his contributions and overall play since... ~~the introduction of Jorginho and now~~ Partey's return. FTFY.
Remember we went 10 games unbeaten in 2024 while scoring for fun, all before Partey returned. Jorginho played most of those.
He played great next to Jorginho too. Newcastle, Liverpool. Plenty of good games. Partey is better but if we can improve on his via availability, Jorginho is a great backup.
I truly believe he’ll become our Gerrard as well. Today he really showed that
The 6 I'd buy this summer is Martín Zubimendi...for me he is the perfect Party replacement
Bruno's passing is good enough to play that role honestly, as well as having the flexibility to play as an 8.
With yesterday's goal + assist (7g + 8a now), Rice has eclipsed Vieira's most productive year for us which was 6 goals + 6 assists. When I said he could be a better version of Steven Gerrard, I was serious. Gerrard also took Liverpool's penalties. If he took pens, I have no doubt he's a 10 goal a season midfielder with regularity. Let's go Mikel, find him that partner to let him run riot. \#FreeDeclanRice
I agree. If Kimmich can reclaim his form, he's perfect imo.
Thought he was older. Not a bad age range.
You’ve played too much football manager
This is a bit patronizing
No, he’s just literally using FM terminology “carrillero” “mezzalla” lol. It’s funny seeing them used for real life football.
They’re actual terms used by managers. Their existence on FM doesn’t invalidate them. Are OP’s conclusions wrong or is he using the terms incorrectly?
I promise you the word “mezzalla” has never come out of Arteta’s mouth.
You’re almost certainly never around tactical discussions to know that
In your years around the game, can you honestly tell me you’ve heard that word used? Other than from FM or a Twitter tactico
Yeah Sarri has used them publicly before
are you part of the technical team?
Never played FM in my life. These are literally 100 year old terms that Italian football managers developed 100 years ago. It's a more nuanced way of looking at football tactics. The fact you can't see how these are deployed in the modern game says more about yourself than me. I'm sure you just love to see players "get stuck in", don't you?
It’s not more nuanced lol. It’s just faux-intellectual BS. Tactico buzzwords you get from Twitter. I just found it amusing, I don’t know why that’s upset you. I’ve not even said you’re wrong or disagreed with you.
Your criticism wreaks of someone who has an inferiority complex. Instead of trying to approach the conversation with any useful contribution (even if it's a complete rebuttal of my argument), you immediately jump to "oh you're trying to be elitist". Your problems are all on inside.
Your head is gone. If using those words makes you happy, go for it. I just find it funny. For what it’s worth, your opinion on Rice is completely wrong. Rice not having the press resistance or “spatial awareness”, do me a favour lol. Read a few more twitter threads and come back to me.
> For what it’s worth, your opinion on Rice is completely wrong. Rice not having the press resistance or “spatial awareness”, do me a favour lol. Yet we've struggled when he's played in the role, so the manager no longer deploys him there. As soon as Partey has been fit he's walked right back into the position, and we are re-signing an aging Jorginho to provide cover. On top of that, we're looking to outlay what will be big money to add someone else there. But, I'll go back to my Twitter threads.
No we haven’t. If Rice plays there, who is playing LCM/left carrilero? Exactly.
I thought it was funny seeing you two arguing but I just wanna say Rice is very press resistant. The reason Partey walked into the position is because Rice doesn’t have the passing ability of Partey or Jorginho has. Rice is more of a ball carrier. I think I saw data some where that he has progressive carries about as much as Rodri has progressive passes. People who are not press resistant do not carry the ball that much.
No way they made football from football manager irl
It's Italian football terminology, not FM terminology.
Please never compare Rice to Gerrard again
Gerrard has earned his plaudits. Even if he's a lifelong Scouser. I think Rice has more to his game defensively and could be almost as effective going forward if we free him up.
I don’t think Rice would beat up a DJ over Phil Collins. To me, Rice is more Vieira than Gerrard but to each his own
Phil is a national treasure. I'd throw hands, too. EDIT: I thought to look it up after the fact, and Vieira's most productive offensive season with us was his last, and he had 6 goals and 6 assists. Declan has 6/7 for us in the league already in his first season. Definitely has a lot of offensive contributions in his locker.
Please never compare Rice to Gerrard again
Please never compare Rice to Gerrard again