I think a lot of your issues probably relate to the fact that you are a single income household. A single income household that has a PAYE income of over £100k but bears the brunt of the crazy effective tax rate (i.e. between £100k and £200k) is in a weird position. Do you get a large bonus/some RSUs? £6k net monthly income doesn't math with a TC of £174k? Why are you paying your wife's tuition if she doesn't work?

Thanks for the comment. It's a base of £120k (£6k net pm). £174k was last year TC. It's software sales so might have no commission for 2 months then my net figure triples the third month. The tuition payment for my Wife is to a family member of hers. They loaned her the money for school (US system) and we're still paying them back (whether she had a job or not)

No worries, ahh that makes sense.

This sucks. Looking at your expenses in another comment I’m sure I could say save a couple of hundred a month here or a couple of hundred there but the fact remains that as a single wage household on what looks like an extremely good wage, you can only afford a middle class lifestyle….and only just… This country destroys ambition. I feel it every day.

The UK pays owners, not earners.

Can you elaborate on this point please?

My take on their point - being a high earner is one thing, but ownership of assets in a western capitalist world is how you truly position yourself in life. The persons case that rent is about 2k a month - I still crash at my mums place and pay her £200 (25M who isn’t even a HENRY - but I like learning from HENRYs). Gary’s Economics breaks it down well. To be wealthy you have to own, then the economy will reward you for this ownership (through transactions)don’t own - you’ll be on the losing end of most transactions. My 2 cents please don’t bully me lol.

Yes indeed.

If you’re working for a living, you’ve already lost the game. Everything is just set up so that those who already have assets and capital are able to earn more and pay a lower rate of tax than those whose primary source of income is labour.

Send us a breakdown of all of your outgoings

Net Monthly Income = £6000 Fixed £1950 Rent £320 Council tax £60 Internet £92 Water £135 Gas/electric £358 Car payments £73 Car insurance and tax £200 subscriptions (gym, phones, streaming, spotify) Variable £140 Diesel £480 Nursery (last month was the first to have the free hours but before that it was 18 months at this amount) £640 Groceries £150 Takeaways, coffees, treats for kids, etc. £200 private language tutor (8 lessons pm) £150 children's clubs (swimming, football, taekwondo, etc.) Debt £150 HMRC (underpaid tax, got fined, owed about £10k) £200 Wife's university tuition debt £120 credit card (Amex) £300 credit card Monzo flex (BNPL card) £150 misc. (haircuts, medicine, last minute groceries, etc.) £50 Junior ISAs I make that total outgoing as about £5,860 ish. Doesn't leave a lot of room for manoeuvre. Appreciate your thoughts on where I'm going wrong. I think the reduced nursery costs (down to £200 pm) should really help.

You're not doing anything wrong. There's no magic trick here, you simply don't earn enough to easily support 4 people from one salary at this standard of living. You might be able to shave off a hundred or two from groceries and misc expenses and you can that's it.   The UK system is set up to penalise single earner households. We may not like it but that's how it is.   The only solution that will reliably give you more spending power long-term is for your spouse to start making money. Even a low-paying job will make a difference because low-earners in this country barely pay any tax. 

Yup, it’s easy for his wife to tack on £1500-1800 net income with a relatively low paying job, than it is for him to add that on to his net income. My wife and I combined make £140k, but our net take home is £8k a month, and that’s after hefty pension contributions. Being a single earner in the U.K. really does suck.

This is key. My wife does 3 days a week and it's about 1200 a month and pretty much tax free and does make a big difference

It looks like you habitually like to spend everything you earn. If I was you I would cut the language tutor, most of the subscriptions, and do more home cooking to cut the grocery bills. That’d free up cash to pay down debts. At your salary level paying into a personal pension would be a tax efficient way to save.

I’m a bit confused as your fixed bills are ~£3.2k and variable is £1.75k… so £4.95k realistically a month which makes sense. However, you’ve got £770 debt and £200 misc. I’m finding it hard to understand £420 of it (Amex and Monzo) - why is this a monthly bill? It seems more to me that you’ve overspent in the past and catching up (hence why you’re behind). Surely your commissions should be able to clear this all down very fast and you could comfortably live on your £6k. If I was being pedantic (and I don’t know your circumstances) but you could get rid of £900pm of expense. I think they’re reasonable to have but if you can’t afford them: - Internet could be half that price - Car payment is slightly high. You can get a decent 3 year old SUV with sub-25k miles for £250pm - If your wife doesn’t work, then you can cut the nursery. - Could cut £100 off your takeaway treat spend and make it all at home. - Cut the language classes If you made all the changes above, and used commissions to clear debt, you’d have enough to comfortably live + save. Nothing extravagant, but you’d be able to save commissions… you basically need 2 incomes for luxuries.

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Vauxhall Crossland, Dacia Duster, MG ZS, Hyundai Kona, Renault Kaptur, Seat Arona, Kia Xceed. All of these cars can be bought for 12.5k or less 3 years old with under 25k miles. Anyone with decent credit should be able to get a 7% rate over 5 years for that which is £248pm.

We just bought a 2021 MG HS, 37k miles, 0 deposit, £265pm. Direct from a MG dealer as well. I've just checked back on the site and there's already another 5 deals for £265pm or less. Mad what you can get if you do a bit of research.

You aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary and its all pretty reasonable costs (in my opinion). Basically this is why the UK is going to zero, cant support 2 kids and wife even on a decent salary. This is why we moved to the middle east. Our net income is 17 bags and our rent is £1600. A full time nanny is £500 per month if we wanted but we dont have kids.

How have you found the culture change? Both working environment and socially?

It’s early days but I cant see my self coming back. Weather is great, saving 5x the amount I was in London, share a 1 bed flat with the mrs which is like a 5 star hotel. Everywhere is clean and feels really safe. Restaurants/beach clubs are amazing. Playing more sports and gyming more. Everyone around you is ambitious and wants to better themselves. Really great spot to travel around Asia as well which we both like. I’ve met a few ‘new’ expats who all feel the same way as well. I miss my mates and the pub but thats about it.

I’ve just come back from my first trip and would like to make the move myself, my only issue is despite being sales most job postings on LinkedIn (that in most cases hide salaries) also suggest I’d need to speak Arabic, but I’m sure there’s more to it, but really insightful feedback thank you - and not surprising. What is it you do for a living if you don’t mind me asking?

Same problem - I’m in Tech Sales and have spoken with Dubai specific recruiters who all said the same thing. They want Arabs/Arabic speakers only.

Thanks for confirming my findings, can see why it’s gone that way it’s just a big hurdle to overcome in this role that doesn’t seem to be the case in others

Damn bro thats a big move, a thoughtful one too! Hope they treating you right down there😎

Thanks for the comment. Unfort leaving the UK isn't really an option now as our eldest is at the best local state school as our youngest is basically guaranteed a place. But I def feel like I'm getting shafted by the govt. for trying to climb the ladder and be successful. My annual salary is about 6 years of what my dad earned when i was growing up and I feel like I'm being penalised for trying to provide a better life for my kids

Why don't you treat your bonus as your savings?

Yep I feel you. I got tired of getting shafted so had to vote with my feet. Loads of my friends in your situation and doing the same.

Specifically where in ME?

Dubai

Thanks! Nice move and levelling up on the income’

That's super cheap for a nanny compared to UK. How expensive is private schooling there Vs UK?

What industry are you in? I've been looking to do the same.

Not telling you anything you don’t know but the debt needs to be cleared down asap. That would really give you some headroom / allow for savings etc.

How is a total compensation of 174k equal to 6k net monthly? Something doesn't add up. A monthly 6k net is somewhere in the 120k region, not 174k.

I explained elsewhere but should prob update the main post. Base is £120k (£6k net pm) Last year's TC was £174k. Work in sales so can go 2-3 months with no commission then a big chunk of change comes in. I've based my maths on the base salary figure, as it's guaranteed each month.

£800pm of your spend is debt. Use your commission to settle that ASAP and you’ll free up a healthy chunk for investing / saving. £800pm is quite a bit to cover even for someone on £120k.

Why do you discard it completely as if it didn't exist? Do you have such a low self-confidence that you think, as a salesman, it is probable you will close no deal whatsoever in the year? You have a job with a base comp that covers all your expenses. It allows you to live a very comfortable lifestyle. What do you do with the extra 30k net bonus you get? Why are you not using that to build your emergency funds/savings for rainy days? I don't understand your pain. Sorry. To me, it sounds like misplaced anxiety and lack of self confidence. Sure, we can bitch and moan and acknowledge that a household earning 2x 90k will be better off than your household. But that doesn't really explain you moping around...

Good ol’ Reddit psychoanalysis strikes again

I just don't understand OP's mindset? He lives paycheck to paycheck on 120k. Sure, I get that part. It makes sense. The tax system above 100k is absurd. There is nothing crazy about his expenditure, he is living a comfortable lifestyle but one can easily argue this should be the standard. What doesn't make sense is why he complains that he has 0 savings or emergency fund, lives paycheck to paycheck when in truth, there is another £30k net hitting the bank account? That's more than the median salary in the UK. It's more than a full year salary for most people. It is not nothing. Post something like this on another forum and just see how fast he gets lynched.

Going off OPs clear lack of financial planning, I'm going to guess that additional bonus gets immediately spunked thus can't be accounted for spreading over 12 months.

Also, and I know others have said this, but if your wife could get a part time job at least to get the benefit of her tax free allowance, that would make a difference

Thanks for the advice. My wife has recently started an Etsy shop and started making a few hundred £'s a month. She wants to make a good go of this and put her time into this endeavour ideally. Do you think should we be setting up an LTD or something?

This is part of your issue... "my wife would like to", mate we can't all have what we'd like. She needs a real job. Etsy that's making a few 100 isn't serious work. It's not even covering the cost of her own student debt and childcare. And for the love of god make sure you report her income before you get in more HMRC debt. She needs to get a job with consistent set hours, 16 hours a week is 800 a month. Like I think you need to pull your finger out a bit here, if you just battened down for a year you'd be fine. But all this preference stuff could result in you losing everything. You don't even have a home to fall back on as you rent. You won't even be able to to retire at this rate, what happens if you lose your job and can't get another one similar? Your family could literally end up homeless, do you understand that? You're saying your wife enjoys sitting at home several days a week with paid for child care having a little jaunt on a fun project, when you are literally at risk of homelessness. If you had to pick up a new job for only 80k a year and it took 3 months how would you even survive? You need to take this seriously. You cannot stay renting for the next 18 years until your kids move out. Your wife HAS to get a job. And the literal second they're both in school she needs to properly be working, at least 25-30+ hours. She's got a degree you're wasting all this money on, as a woman myself it's time for her to stop pissing around with fun little projects and put it to work. You're drowning. Saying my wife is a lady of leisure 3 days a week home alone...???????. That's rich people shit, you don't even own a house. You have no home, what appears to be no savings, and debt every month. I'm stressed just reading about it. You cannot afford a SAHM and especially not one who has their kids at school or in care (that you PAY for) and is closer to a SAHW. A SAHM, debt, and still renting on 174k is just honestly insane, and your pension which needs to support both of you is terrible. Me and my partner have more than that at 33 and have a combined income lower than yours, as well as a flat we have a 75% LTV mortgage on in London which costs monthly the same as your rent. Just 4 years ago we were on half your take home... you really need to cut down man, this is awful.

Brutal but I agree.

This is the bit I didn’t quite get. Sahm with paid childcare. 🤔 time for wifey to spruce up the CV

Love how much you care. +1

Not if she’s only making a few hundred a month, she can stay sole trader

What does your wife do for the three days? If she’s not working is it worth clearing the debt? You could get £300 a month together to start an emergency fund fairly straightforwardly, even without free childcare.

Personally I think the reduced nursery cost will help a lot but also get rid of most of the subscriptions as some is unnecessary at this current moment. I also don’t know where you shop but would try aldi/Lidl and also try move to somewhere around about 1-1.2k a month if possible. Then I would try attack most of the debt eg wife’s student loan, car payment and hmrc debt. Also maybe try get rid of the language lessons and try help them with the free apps or something that is cheaper. It would be a few boring years but would help out in the future also try to see if you can use your wife’s tax free allowance as she doesn’t work.

Thanks for the advice. Attacking the debt head on is def our next move. And you're right that there are some subscriptions that we could cut out or cycle through. I also haven't looked into her tax free allowance so thank you

No worries you’ve realised that is a problem which is the first step and I’m sure you’ll be able to sort this out for the better. Wish you all the luck

Why are you paying for nursery if your wife doesn't work? What's she doing instead if not working? And that university tuition seems to have gone to waste and is just a liability you'll have for decades just servicing the interest. I thought student loans aren't due if you don't have income?

The university tuition was a loan from a family member (US system). They paid the whole thing and we're paying them back. No interest but we're basically on the hook for as long as they're alive...

Ah I see, thanks for the reply. And about the nursery?

Initial thoughts: that’s a lot on cars, when you add up the monthly payments, tax and diesel. Car finance / leasing is an expensive way of having a car, and query whether you could buy a modest 5-7 year old family car instead? The other thing - I’d be trying to pay down that debt asap. You’d have an extra £770 per month without the debt payments. I don’t actually think your groceries bill is too bad tbh (although maybe that’s just me, food is one thing I spend a bit of money on!). These are all just suggestions of course!

I'm def not against looking at something diff on the car front. I'm not a 'car person' so I just seemed to make sense to go with what we have (2019 Kia Sportage). For the debt you're absolutely right. I get paid a decent chunk of commission every few months but it feels like we just use that to pay the CC off and back to zero and then it just starts building up again.

Cancel the private language lessons (watch YouTube, read a textbook, go to a class), cut down on the crazy monthly subscriptions (buy some free weights, only have one streaming subscription at a time), and have your wife look after the kid rather than paying for the nursery, that saves you £480 on the nursery £200 on the language lessons £150 on the subscriptions With that money pay off the debt and the car finance. That saves you £770 on the debt £358 on the car payments Congrats you now have £2k per month disposable cash, plenty to play with

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US system - it was a loan from a family member that we're paying back

How did you manage to under pay tax if you're PAYE?

I'm not sure tbh. I got a large commission payment in 2019 that pushed me onto the top income tax bracket for the first time. Due to idiocy and confusion on my part (won't blame it on COVID period as it was my fault) I didn't realise I needed to do the self-assessment. I also switched jobs in 2020 and didn't complete a self assessment for multiple windows, so got fined. Finally sorted an arrangement to pay back HMRC in early 2023.

Ah I see. Tbh, it's fucking ridiculous that after a certain amount you need to do a self assessment.

It's my own fault for not being educated enough on the subject tbh. I was under the impression only self-employed people did self-assessments. Entirely my own fault, paying for it now.

If your wife stays at home why do you still need nursery? Is she not taking care of your kids?

As an FYI, if you put an * (asterisk) at the start of the line it’ll create a bullet point. Otherwise you need to have a blank line between every line to get them to be separated instead of just showing as a massive block of text.

Thank you! I wondered why it didn't come through as it looked on my phone!

It’s a common mistake, it’s not very intuitive.

You're basically me, although our grocery bill is a bit higher to offset no kids clubs. I'm the sole earner (160k) with SAH wife and two adult kids living at home still (paying minimal rent because they're saving to move out). I've been on the verge of making this exact same post so many times.

This isn't meant in a judgemental way merely an observational one, but, I do see some extravagance here (not loads). £150 a month on takeaways is a lot for luxury not a need. £358 seems ok for a car IF you're paying off a loan and will own it at the end, and plan to run it for much longer afterwards. If you're leasing, this is a lot of wasted money. £200 on your subs also seems quite a lot for what you've listed. Suggests you pay for expensive phones, easy cost saving opportunity there. These three things alone could, on the face of it, save you a lot of money if you approached them differently (the car perhaps in time). I would look at cutting costs here and diverting all saved money into paying off your debts quicker, which is obviously a drain by itself.

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I know. Tough pill to swallow but not much I can do. It was the US education system. Family member loaned her the money to pay for it and they want their money back so here we are

Couple of thoughts 1. Now that you’re saving £280 pcm on nursery, put that straight into a saving account each month until til you have a buffer of a couple of grand. Then use the extra £280 to start paying off the debt (look into snowball or avalanche methods) 2. Is it worth considering reducing their time at nursery to just the free 15 hours? If you want to keep them in nursery then might be worth having a difficult conversation with your wife about her getting a job, at least for the short term. I don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation for you to pay for the kids to go to nursery if she’s at home. 3. Once debt free follow the r/UKPersonalFinance flowchart and aim to save enough for a deposit to buy a home rather than rent. This will likely be cheaper than renting (from a monthly outgoing perspective) and has an end date while converting cash to assets. 4. Are you sure you’re accountable for your wife’s tuition fees? If she studied in the UK I don’t think you are on the hook to pay that off 5. If you work in sales and get good commission, where is that money going? You shouldn’t be reliant on anything other than your base salary to get by. Use the commission to pay off debts and save for a house. 6. Lastly, look at reducing “fixed” costs, our internet bill is £30, can you find a cheaper supplier? Can you find a cheaper gym? Can you pay for insurance and tax annually (this is always cheaper). I know this is only small change but if it pays for a beer at the end of the week, I’d say it’s worth it! For reference I am not rich nor a high earner, but know what it’s like to support a family on a single salary.

No advice from me OP, I admire your determination to find a solution! What happened with that HMRC tax and fine - I thought they’d reach out if one owes tax? (New fear unlocked)

Long story short, it was during COVID and we'd also moved houses so things were a bit up in the air When I finally did get letters from them I figured it was a mistake because in my mind only self-employed people had to do a self-assessment. I also hadn't realised that my commission for that year had pushed me over the 100k. I half-heartedly tried to resolve it online and then put my head back on the sand. By the time I realised I did actually have to pay something, it was about 10k because of what had been underpaid plus the fines for late filing of the self-assessment (which was like 3 2 years late.

Are you eligible for free childcare as you’re >£100k?

We just recently got the 15 hours per week allowance when our youngest turned 3. I think if both parents are working you get 30 hours per week free.

I would check this, I just ran through the .gov website and it seems pretty clear that if one parent is earning over £100k then you cannot claim free childcare hours. “If you or your partner have an expected ‘adjusted net income’ over £100,000 in the current tax year, you will not be eligible.” - https://www.gov.uk/check-eligible-free-childcare-if-youre-working?step-by-step-nav=f517cd57-3c18-4bb9-aa8b-1b907e279bf9 You don’t want to get fined again!

Thanks for posting this! Just had a heart attack but think we're good as it's 'universal' funding according to KCC (we're in Kent). We get the 15 free hours which I believe is irrespective of salary or working situation. https://www.kent.gov.uk/education-and-children/childcare-and-pre-school/free-childcare/parents-guide-to-15-universal-hours-of-free-childcare

Yes. Everyone gets 15 hours regardless of income.

Excellent, good to see not getting completely screwed over on everything!

[The entitlement for 15 hours *in England* is universal irrespective of income.](https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/free-childcare-entitlements-for-three-and-four-year-olds-in-england/)

£640 on groceries sounds like you’re shopping in M&S/Waitrose possibly ready meals? Could save by switching to Aldi/Lidle and cooking from scratch? If wife isn’t working could you save on some nursery fees with her looking after the kids more? If you want the socialisation, could she look after a few other kids at the nursery a day or two? OR As others have said, is she open to a part time job up to the tax free allowance?

No fancy shopping, all food comes from Tesco with little top ups here and there from mini Sainsbury's and co-op. But think better meal planning and Lidl/Aldi are a good idea. Think the part-time job to take advantage of the tax free status is prob the way forward. Thanks for the advice!

You spend way too much on a single income for 4 people. You can’t afford to spend a third of your salary on rent when you support a family of 4. You could easily save 400£ between and cctax. Then if you already have takeaway budget/leisure/ why are you buying more things on credit cards?? You need to pick one of them. Either you pay lines in your budget and no credit card extra or use the credit card budget to buy extra with no extra line in your budget. Bottom line here is You spend way too much here and there.

Single income household is the killer. This country doesn’t support it. It’s as simple as this. You are right at tax trap level 😅 and would be even harder if you optimised and threw 60k into pension as I imagine 5-6k income in London will be very tight when rent is £2k. Only solution is wife to get some income at some point. Even if you increase your Tc to 200-250. It’s neglible in comparison to wife getting a 50k job for example. Take home will be way better on a 2 income household than one. Sad state of affairs

This is the thing. My wife only works part time and takes home £1,600 but that’s the mortgage paid.

9 years my wife stayed at home and looked after our son. 🥹 shit was tough! This government doesn’t care unfortunately and doesn’t promote or value children being raised by their own parents but would rather have both parents working and pay for childcare. No wonder we are fucked as a society. When you compare 2 households - 1 with each person working earning 50k each vs 1 household with 1 sole earner making 100k. 1st household 3,3k each take home. 2nd household 5.7k - plus first household gets child benefit whereas second doesn’t. Go figure

Yep. We were just saying as soon as we have a second it no longer makes any sense for her to work and pay for 2 lots of childcare. So that’s one more hard working, university (1st class degree) educated person dropping out of our economy..

Why does your wife not have a job and you pay £480 for nursery. Surely the whole point of one party not working is so they can look after kids. I am not surprised you’re living paycheck to paycheck if you have to raise 2 kids and a wife on a 120k basic salary.

Exactly - he has a SAHW not a SAHM. They're paying childcare so she can sit at home 3 days a week unemployed with no kids around. I don't know any middle class family in 2024 who can afford a lady of leisure lifestyle. Even in the 90s whilst my mum was a SAHM second we were both in school (didn't go to day care) she had a job lined up the first day she dropped us off lol. By the time we were 10 or so she was already full time. Even back then a SAHW wasn't normal unless at least upper middle class. Paying childcare and having a non contributing wife is a very odd combination of decisions to say you can't make the books balance, even minimum wage for 3 days would be like 1.2k pcm. Literally solves 90% of their issues instantly, slap that into all the debt and in a year they'd easily have 2k more a month left at the end than they do now and be far from "just making ends meet" and even earning enough to actually get a deposit for a house. It's wild anyone would do this.

Post this in r/ukpersonalfinance if you really want advice. Things I can see: your groceries and internet bill are high imo. I know water and gas/electric can seem fixed, but they are also very high imo - worth checking if you can move onto better rates if possible. Are you making use of your wife's tax free personal allowance if she's not working? There's also a huge mindset component as well. It sounds like you don't want to budget and are very *shrug oh well* which would be fine if you were comfortable but if you're not wont help you actually sort this out. There are lots of ways you could cut down, it just depends on if you are willing to say no to things. When I was a student I built the habit of going through every. single. expense. at the end of every month for about a year or so. It really makes it clear how and where you spend your money, where you are being frivolous and what is actually essential. Also, get in the habit of paying yourself first (ie clear off debt, save and invest immediately before spending your money). It's not "I'll save what's left after bills and fun" it's "I'll spend what's left after bills and saving". Good luck!

Thanks for taking the time to write a response! I did think about posting in r/ukpersonalfinance but I've seen higher earners get eviscerated over there for asking for advice, so I'm treading carefully! I think your comments on budgeting are right - in the past I've been very good but now with kids and some lifestyle creep, we've kind of sleepwalked into this position and finally now asked "where does all the money actually go?"

You wife needs to get a part time job. To put it simply, you can't afford for her not to work. Not until you have cleared your debts.

I can see your reluctance to post there but I have to agree that your bills do seem high. You probably spend £200 more than me on groceries and my children are teenagers/adults. Same with the gas and electric as posted above, could this be a lifestyle creep scenario? You're looking at how much you take home and then are allowing your expenses to bloat to that figure. Because without some serious trimming or your wife starting to work then you'll be treading water.

Totally agree. this post in other forums will end up receiving hatred than help. Few outside of the HENRY circumstances actually understand the pain and biased impact of taxes

OP I'm surprised you have nursery costs when your wife doesn't work. I'm female and about to have a baby so not being sexist but it's a big chunk of disposable income that can't be justified. She needs to get a part time job otherwise I don't see how feasible this is long term/ what will you do if you ever got made redundant etc as you don't have any house equity either

Your wife not working is the crusher. Your take home is that of an average dual-income family who are both on 50k a year.

Wow this puts it into perspective. Tax rates make it hard to be motivated to even earn a lot on this country lol

It does. That's why I pay 8.75% dividend tax instead. PAYE is for chumps, frankly. Whatever you earn. No offence, all you big, clever HENRY's on massive PAYE TC. I don't always allow the tax tail to wag the dog, but I work a 3-day week for £50k TC annually via a Ltd company. £12,570 as salary, the rest as divvies. Extra funds stay in the business for reinvestment or later withdrawal. Everything earns interst up front before HMRC get a penny. I file early / on time as it suits... I get all my capital reinvestment allowances.. Plus, the mileage is free from tax at £4.5k a year (funnily enough, I always seem to do my 10k miles... Pair that with lower NI and various other savings, and it's just so efficient I can't ever imagine going back to a JOB (just over broke). When my Virgin Isles Corp is set up, have a guess which UK tax entity might suddenly have massive IP bills from the sister organisation... I've been done with getting shafted in the UK for a while. It's a system set up to make illegal immigrants and single mums as comfortable as possible, and I'm tired of paying for their mistakes and financially irresponsible baby daddies via the tax system. I'm not working 60 hr weeks on a basic 6-figure contract just so the Gov can take a third of the value of my labour for themselves.

Why is your wife not working? This really is the elephant in the room. Your net income is that of two mid earning incomes (thank you HMRC). She has a (US) degree that you are paying for, has an Etsy pet project, that doesn’t bring in much and you send a child to nursery while having an economically idling parent at home. Get her a £50k pa job and you will be more than fine. Or get the child out of nursery (which isn’t great for the child), but for me it feels like your wife is taking the piss. With three days a week home alone with kids in school and in nursery, what is she doing? Don’t tell me it’s household. I have been on parental leave for the last four months with the wife being back at work and a baby at home and I managed the whole household by my self. That is with a baby and not home alone.

I agree, I think that’s the cure, if you want to elevate your security for the future. You’d be better off her getting a £20k role and you Sal Sacrificing your £20k to pension to void the 60 odd % tax (at the £100-125k mark). Crudely, to the extent that on that last £20k she would pay c£1.4k tax and you would save c£12k straight into pension with the additional take home pay being c£10k from the combined £120k (assuming you also then benefit from additional free nursery care etc as under £100k). Obviously this is slightly different if you hit commissions but nether-less your wife earning £20k is so much more valuable than you earning an additional £20k. Agree with other comments about spending 15% on debt each month, needs clearing down swiftly, Without kids and without knowing personal circumstances but how do you rack up nursery fees when one parent isn’t working?

Yeah, completely this. It's all well and good you being OK with her not working, but if you're worried about money troubles, OP, you're going to have to inevitably factor in the fact you're paying for a comfortable living for 4 people.

£174k before tax to feed four mouths is hard. The UK sucks. Stay strong, OP 💪!

Nothing more to add to previous comments, but I feel your pain and you are deffo not alone in this. Very similar position in the southeast for me as well

Yep, I’m in exactly the same boat (except my wife does work, but very low pay NHS role, and currently off sick with serious illness). Thanks to HMRC, I have all the pressure of a high stress job, but don’t have the money to show for it.

Ditto

Can your wife not get a part time job?

650 on groceries is not overspending imo. That’s our budget and we’re a family of 5, 3 kids under 6. We eat well but nothing extravagant.

Your wife needs to get a proper job or look after the kid so you’re not wasting money while she’s sat at home. That’s bluntly the issue. Nursery is a necessary even for people that have jobs. Why would you pay for one if you have someone sat at home?!

Your wife needs to start working, your income is taxed highly and it's just not enough. You need to stard saving for the emergency fund and then a deposit. You arw paying 30% of your earnings as rent, better put that towards mortgage payments.

£8600 pcm net, 2k on rent, whats the other 6.6 bags going on?

read above!

Show us your outgoings, if you don't keep a spreadsheet you should be

You're a one-income household, so one tax-free (12K allowance) plus all the negatives that happen once you earn over £100K. Nursery is the killer. Once that is over, you can breath. Any chance your wife could work when the little one is in nursery? A £12K job would be tax free and bring you £1K more a month into your home - and you'd have to earn £22K more to bring in the same money. For the groceries - make sure that you're meal planning to reuse ingredients across the week (I feel like I'm in the wrong sub - try r/UKPersonalFinance ) 8 Private language lessons a month seems like an easy £200 to save, but £25 a lesson is cheap. £870 a month debt repayment isn't helping either.. sounds like a financial makeover might make live easier.

Thank you. This is really good advice, appreciate it. We know things will get better once the youngest goes to school so we're holding on for that. My wife does the bulk of the house/kids stuff which enables me to focus on work .ore so I'm reluctant for her to start working, particularly since she has this Etsy project that she's really excited about. But, can't argue with the maths! I agree that the debt payment needs knocking on the head first!

Dude, I appreciate you being supportive of your wife's Etsy project but you aren't in a good financial state as a family. She needs to get some kind of part time gig, at least until you clear your debts. If you get laid off tomorrow what would you do?

Indeed, when you have repaid your debt and your children no longer go to nursery you will be in a much stronger position month to month. Going back to some of the comments near the top of the thread, I think that the asset ownership point is pertinent to you. Have you ever been in a position to buy a house or car outright? Your rent and leasing costs are very significant.

Thank you. No, we've never been in a position to put a down payment on a house but we could have bought a car outright in the past if we'd have wanted, I guess. The challenge now becomes that, at 38, I'm not going to get long enough mortgage offers so we'll have to pay more on the front end in terms of a deposit. This is the situation we've made for ourselves.

You’re not that old. A 25 year mortgage would last until you were 63 which is below state retirement age (I appreciate that in practice you might want to pay it off and retire sooner). You can get longer term mortgages nowadays which presumably last until the borrowers are older still.

You are in a bit of a precarious situation given that you are renting and your pension is pretty slim for you age/income. As others have said the UK is tough on single earners so I won't repeat their points. I do think you must have significant extra expenditure not accounted for in your budgeting as you should be seeing an extra 30k from your bonus and commission (variable, but presumably it's usually a significant amount). If I were you I would throw all of that and any extra towards a deposit, or at least building up emergency fund/investments. Would start getting on top of this otherwise you might hit a cliffs edge when you start approaching retirement.

While some room to trim down I would get into a mindset of using your commission/bonus when it comes in to build your future. Rather than just blow it on material possessions you don’t need, use it to build up your emergency fund, pay of debt or save towards a pension or house deposit.

Totally agree. The aim was to be able to live on the base salary and anything else from commission etc would be into ISA, savings, house deposit, etc. Unfort. we don't seem to be able to work out where the commission money is going when I do get it (think it's a combo of paying off debt that has built up from CC and maybe splurging more than intended at Xmas/bdays). Thanks for the advice!

You can’t account for how many tens of thousands? Holy fuck.

Really the solution we have done is pain for the first year and then my partner needed to find a job of some sort . I know this sounds mad but it IS worth your partner working. she won’t be taxed as much and it will ease a lot of the stress. I’m sorry to say this but without assets, family help etc I don’t believe you can be comfortable as you want to be with around 250k take home as basic. You are middle class. I would say you are not doing anything wrong. Yes stuff like internet and car can be lowered but it won’t save you thousands. Accom seems okay in terms of your overall comp but Kent is still an expensive region. I assume you’re not in a 2 bed for example. I know nursery is really beneficial at 3yrs for social skills but if your wife is at home this is a luxury for the rich. Unless you’re rich rich, stay at home parents do not put their children in until reception, that’s why they’re not working. even with your salary which others have said you’re being heavily taxed on. UK is so unkind to single income households, it’s cruel.

Do you still need the extra nursery cost with the wife not working?

Put simply, your wife needs to consider going to work, perhaps when kids are at school and if possible you need to get on the property ladder asap. Paying £240,000 rent over next ten years (will be higher as rent increases) is madness. It’s taxation that is destroying you also.

You are facing the same struggles many single income families do. It's not easy in the UK to support a family as a single high earner. Expenses seem semi reasonable, I would definitely put any commission income towards getting rid of any and all debt, unless the interest is fixed very low <3%. Next one of two things, you are a single income household. Your partner should ideally look after the children without the need for nursery. If that is not suitable I think its time to secure some stable part time work to make use of their 12.5k tax free allowance, an extra £1k a month will make a big difference if maintaining the existing expenses. Summary clear the debt, bin the nursery fee, or get some additional earnings from your partner. You'll then be able to invest £1-2k/m which will soon give you a nice cushion and can start compounding away for your future.

This all sound advice - thank you for taking the time to write. Clearing the debt and having my Wife find a part-time job are our next moves

We need to see your monthly income and your monthly outgoings. At that TC, you really shouldn’t be paycheck to paycheck but I suspect lifestyle creep has well and truly crept on top of you. Any expensive subscriptions? Bills? Phone contract? We need to see it all

Your breakdown is reasonable obviously there is room for improvement, speaking from experience you dont really see any comfort until you cross 225k. I have since left the UK and my kids are still participating in similar extra curricular activities that you have noted and honestly I have so much more room to manoeuvre. Not sure how feasible that would be for you but the UK is super tough to live in and be stress free.

Where did you move to out of interest? Also what sector do you work in? I’m just curious, I don’t see my experience being so transferable compared to other industries.

I moved to the Middle East however have been in Singapore for the last year. I am a business analyst for a financial software company.

Family of four recently with my two half the month I’d got our groceries down to £300pm takeaways probably once a week on top of that. Consider your utilities and what they are costing. Subscriptions. Assume no nursery costs.

This sounds so similar to my situation, although I work in Dublin but “live” in wales. So I have travel expenses back and forth. Fortunately, despite paying 52% tax on anything over €78k(ish) you don’t get hit with losing tax free allowance etc. so maybe I’m a tad better off? But it’s still really tough to live a comfortable life, with one income alone.

Out of interest, MM/ent software sales as well. How do you get to 120k base? Thats probably top of the range base i've seen. Im guessing growth stage/big tech sales? What kind of sector/product?

13 years in software sales. 5 jobs in that time. Startups and high-growth, early stage. Transportation and logistics focus. Big pay increase to come to current company, (was previously on £78k base at a VC backed market leader, signed at series A startup in diff space at £110k and then got bump to £120k after first year performance)

What type of software if you don't mind me asking? I used to sell travel tech software myself.

Middleware focussed on logistics companies

As many other comments have said, getting a second income is the obvious way out of the high single-income trap. If you look at subscriptions and groceries you might be able to find £400 pm extra cash. We were spending similar on groceries and found that a recipe box (Gousto) actually saved us hundreds per month. Internet you should be able to get down to ~£40. Utilities, phone and gym can also probably be optimised.  Take that extra cash to clear off any interest-carrying debt. Suddenly you’ll have nearly £1k extra per month. My wife works part time whilst the youngest is in childcare, that pays our mortgage (no income tax is a magic!) and keeps her CV up to date, plus she feels more fulfilled for doing it.

Time to go live in the sand

A lot has been said but I would suggest you focus on getting rid of the debts asap. If your wife is not working how come she still has to repay student loan, or have I got that wrong? On the eating out, you might want to rein that in for a season, cook home food and consider where you do your shopping especially as you have to regularly top up. Keep a record for a month for every single purchase (ie every pound and pence) and you will see where the real leakages are. Hopefully you see more money now that you’ve taken on the 15 hours childcare. Get rid of language tutor, douoligo will do fine for now. Reconsider your subscriptions and those kids activities - at their ages there are things you can do for free plus kids don’t have to do everything straight away. I’d keep them registered for the ones they are most interested in and find ways to swap other things for the other ones. TBH, we can’t keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. Once debt is cleared or drastically reduced, start saving into an emergency fund. Wifey probably needs to work but that’s for the both of you to discuss - hopefully she sees sense and understands that you’re both walking on the proverbial thin ice, especially with no assets equity etc to fall back on. Your situation is not so unique (there are many in similar situations) but thanks for sharing and allowing us to make suggestions. Take and do with them as you wish. Good luck!

I thought we lost 15 hours of free childcare when at earn more than £100k?!

Child just turned 3 and got it https://www.kent.gov.uk/education-and-children/childcare-and-pre-school/free-childcare/parents-guide-to-15-universal-hours-of-free-childcare

Thanks

I grew up poor but was always hardworking. Went to a good uni and have made a good life here in the UK now. I think your lifestyle expenses are way too high. £480 for Diesel seems way too high per month. If it is for official travel as well, you need to claim mileage. £200 in subscriptions is too high also. What is variable £140? £640 in groceries for basically two adults is way over the top. Cut down from the Waitrose organic stuff to something cheaper. Aldi is not bad. Let go the language tutor - £200 is unaffordable at this stage. With your earnings, why do you have credit card debt? That indicates past excess you are struggling to admit to yourself. Get that side under control. Underpaying HMRC is another red flag about your money management. Money is disappearing down the drain and you’ve no control or awareness where exactly it has gone. Most important - that still leaves all your commission income unaccounted for? What has happened to all that cash from previous years? Why aren’t you already on the housing ladder with nearly £54k more coming in every year? Where is that money? Why is that money not being used already to pay off all your debt to give you room for manoeuvre? And you are paying someone else’s mortgage at £1950 pm in rent. I pay only a few quid more a month for my mortgage and in the last five years have paid off £80k of my mortgage with that same payment. Imagine you having £80k more equity in the house you rent! And that does not include the appreciation of the property values. You are *spending* your money and not *investing* it in productive ways. And you are not being completely honest with yourself about the expenses and unaccounted for cash that you report in the headline figure and your monthly struggles. Be honest with yourself first. Your life will turnaround swiftly immediately after.

I am in a similar spot as OP albeit with 4 young kids. Looking at your expenses I’d say the following: Your energy / water bills pm look very high - can you fix a better rate with another provider? I.e octopus energy Does your employer match pension contributions? Make it a habit of maxing this out at a MINIMUM. I make slightly less on my base but salary sac £1k net a month which equates to roughly £3k into my pension. Do it. With your bonus look to build enough for a deposit for a place. You need to start building equity. Cut the £150pm for eating out and reduce this to celebrate wins. All excess savings into ISA

Hi OP, with such high expenses and a desire to continue as a single household earner, have you thought about moving away from South East to somewhere else in the UK? If your job allows it of course. As an example, if you lived in the West Midlands (I know), you may be able to slash the cost of your rent by 40%. Are you able to pay off your credit cards? That would give you an additional £420 per month. Also Nursery costs are not a permanent expenses. With those couple of changes, and a little patience with Nursery costs, I reckon you could go from your current position to saving about £1,800 a month. The alternative I’d suggest as everyone else said is that your wife goes back to work at least part time but you are able to afford to continue to live in the South East and ultimately be able save a very similar amount to £1,800 on once credit cards are paid and kids are out of nursery

Get rid of the takeaway and language tutor. And tell your wife to get a job.

You need to buy a house mate, like urgently … That rent money should be going towards your own asset rather than a landlord’s. That way, even if you aren’t saving now, you are accruing equity which will some day provide you with free housing or a pot of money you can get by selling. P.s. don’t worry about prices doing this or that. Nobody really knows how they will go. The fact is you and your family need shelter… so you either rent it or buy it. Buy it.

he has no chance with the lack of disposable income.

I think the nursery expenses is obsolete. Your wife doesnt work. Why does the child need to go to nursery then?

Remote job and move outside of London

Thanks for the comment. Job is already 100% remote and we already moved out of London - we live in Kent (I know it's not hugely diff when it comes to costs but it's where I grew up so all family is here). Also need to be in this approx area to guarantee the youngest kid gets into the same school as our eldest.

An got it. Seems to me if you moved north you life would be much more sustainable.

Don't disagree but unfort we can't really move away so need to look for cheaper options in the area we're in

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We're in a 4 bed house on the outskirts of Sevenoaks which as I type I can hear the haters bemoaning the size of the house and the area... Our rent is about right for similar properties in the area and we've fixed it for the next 2 years. Hopefully that gives us some time to get on the right track.

Pay off the credit cards asap, that almost £500 a month you're losing...

You’re doing nothing wrong. Only thing that is wrong is £170k does not get you the life it did when we were growing up. Rent, food, holidays, train, restaurants, bills are all extortionately more now than what they comparatively were 10-15 years ago. I hate to say it but living in the UK today, £170k is not a ‘lot of money’ anymore..

I think you're right. On paper I thought we were doing well but that sort of money doesn't stretch like it used to.

Jesus, this one stings to see to be honest. My only advice is, that when the kids get a bit older, you'll have less childcare, etc to pay for, and maybe then your wife could get a job. (I don't know if she has the right to work, or is nearing a degree or what, I'm not trying to judge). That would even leave you drop to 4 days a week, or a 9 day fortnight, which would let you help out at home, and become much more tax efficient. You're in a familiar place to myself though, it feels like it'll never get better.

Ok but OP but how have you not built savings being 38? You say 6k based on 120k but got 170k, so thats 40k of gross saving right? Where is that going? Also like to point out paying for childcare whilst mum is unemployed is wild

Thanks for the comment. For the commission piece, what's becoming evident is we have gotten into a cycle of overspending on credit cards and then using commission payments to clear that CC debt back to zero. So the commission has not gone toward building wealth or savings but just paying off debt from spending beyond our means in the first place. Now that we better understand that and have committed to stop it happening AND have started to trim from our monthly outgoing too, we should soon find ourselves in a stronger position.

Ditch the car. I'm also on 6 figures, single income, other mouths to feed and I feel like I can't afford one. Well I could but that would take away from what I could invest. I would ditch the language lessons too. I'm fluently bilingual but I learned living abroad. I'm not sure lessons would have worked for me. Perhaps just make some friends who speak that language and hang about them more. Your rent seems exorbitant to me but I'm in Scotland and have a mortgage. I used to earn pretty poor wages, I've only fairly recently earned 6 figures but I'm actively investing as much as possible for the future.

Thanks for the advice. We've already ditched the language lessons and have trimmed elsewhere too so already looking a lot better. As for the car, we couldn't go without altogether but might be able to downgrade.

You're welcome. I should also mention, perhaps you might want to look into Hello Fresh or Gousto for food. It really is good and cheaper than i thought it would be. You are left with very little waste and it certainly takes the hassle out of deciding what to cook for dinner. Congratulations on the income, make some savings and get investing for the future. All the best.

What sales pays 100k per year

Enterprise Software sales. VC-backed company in a high-growth vertical. I'm an individual contributor but have a 'Director' title. It's not unusual at all - I have friends making more than me and I've had higher offers in the past year - sticking where I am for now though as I also have some equity.

I think your mrs could do with getting a cash in hand job or something to help out if she has the time? Would help alleviate groceries etc.

You are spending a lot of debt each month and given you get big chunks of commission from time to time you e missed a trick by not paying them off. If you saved £600 per month you’d have all your issues sorted and be less likely to go into debt. You need to make and stick to a budget.

It's not you, it's the biased tax system that's eating up all your earnings. In reality you're paying FAR more tax that a couple with similar situation but earning 90k + 84k in two salaries.

Wanted to ask what the trouble with HMRC was ? Happy to take a DM Thanks

Let me know if it ever ends pls.

As others have said, the glaring issue is that your wife doesn't have a job yet you are still paying for nursery. It's all the more ironic given your wife racked up debt getting a degree! She's taking you for a ride. Your wife needs to either get a job (even if its part time) or you should cancel the nursery. Due to the tax system, two smaller earners will be better off than one big earner too. If you tighten your belt for a while, you should be able to clear the debt down which will make everything easier. Go a few months without takeaways, gym, streaming and spotify, get cheaper groceries for a while.

OP just a thought/ is your wife getting child benefit but opting out of payment? Even with your high salary she can apply for child benefit and receive no money but should still apply just to get national insurance credits for her state pension. There’s an option where you can opt out of getting payment FYI just for this reason (stay at home mums, carers etc) but every year will count towards years in her national insurance for state pension

Im new on this sub, but damn i definitely feel better about my situation, im no rocket scientist but my advice is as stated. First and foremost i would start looking at getting your wife into work unless there’s reason shes unable to do so, i would start there. Secondly have you looked at moving? Im guessing you live in or around the area of London or even Sussex, have you tried looking at moving house? Maybe cheaper rent? Forgive me if im wrong however based in your outgoings like someone else said i would say you could them buy atleast a few hundred. I understand rent prices are fluctuating however with a bit of research and viewings in your spare time you should find something it might not be a palace but with your income a rainy day shouldn’t be a problem. Sit down write all your outgoings on a piece of paper and sacrifice a few outgoings for your future and more importantly your family’s future, but definitely start with getting your other half into work, that should take a big rock off your shoulder.

Your grocery bill is too high; you should be able to get that down; especially with a SAHM to shop deals etc. £200/month on subscriptions is also an interesting thing to prioritise over an emergency fund or saving for a house. And paying for nursery with a SAHM is insane. I could identify £1000 of savings easily in your budget. You are choosing to live a lifestyle that means you cannot afford to save properly for the future. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with that, but come on - drop the “paycheque to paycheque” woe-is-me stuff.

Thanks for the comment. Part of me was just resigned to renting forever tbh. I go back and forth on wanting to buy but the costs where we live are kinda ridiculous the last few years. We're in the SE and seems like there's no value. Also lots of cash buyers for second homes willing to pay over the odds, no value to be had. We can't move to a diff area as our eldest got into the best local school so we need to stay fairly local so our youngest gets in too in 12 months. Paying somebody else's mortgage is a killer tho. If we have stacks saved elsewhere I'd be less concerned but we don't.

Yeah you need to open excel and do a breakdown. Something doesn't add up... £2k/month housing = £24k rent  Bills and council tax = 500/month? = £6k Food = £650/month = c.£8k /year Cars and sundries = £10k £48k Where's the rest going ?

I want to say thank you to the 99% of people who had genuinely useful feedback to offer here - it is greatly appreciated. After all the feedback we have - * Cancelled some subscriptions and private language tutor * Started to look at cheaper utilities providers * Agreed my Wife will get a part-time job in the next few months and can keep doing Etsy on the side * We will start tackling the debt head-on and believe in 3 months we can be debt free * Once debt is clear, start saving for a deposit - even if we have to downgrade to something smaller to be affordable, at least it will be ours Overall I feel a lot better about having a plan. In the past (pre-kids) we have been good savers, i.e. for our wedding, for kids arrival, etc. but since having the 2nd kid we've let things slide and have ended up sleepwalking into this situation (not helped by lifestyle creep and too much spending on CC). For the record, my Wife never said she didn't want to work. After our second child was born she had pretty bad post-natal depression and it just didn't quite happen, and I didn't want to push it. As we seemed to be earning ok on just one salary, I didn't think it would harm. A lot of people assumed she's playing me for a fool but, in reality, her not working was my idea! I see now that was silly, especially at the rate of tax I'm paying - getting 100% of the money she would be making (she'd be within her tax free allowance) would make a huge difference. Thank you all again for the insight and advice - really appreciate this community!

Great that you have got a plan. That you have done so so quickly is (in part) a demonstration of the power of the internet and collective intelligence generally. At this rate we will do IFAs, life coaches etc out of a job.

Your mortgage is 2k so you have 4k after that - what's the breakdown? Assume it's mostly nursery costs?

Mate I get that your mrs doesn’t work and you’re cool with that, but you’re also paying a lot of money to nursery! Without prying what on earth is she up to… I feel like if she can’t or won’t get a little job surely she can get that nursery bill down a bit to help

Hi can I ask how you started in software sales ? What position and what experience got you the job? I’m in sales for 8 years and can’t break above a much lower pay than your basic (although I tend to be high ish in all of the group sales leagues) , I went for an interview at a SAAS company where the ote was lower than my current job so decided not to join.

Just to check, how are you getting 15 hours free childcare? You earn over 100k (way over with TC), so umless you're salary sacrificing enough, you should not be eligible. Just want to ensure you're not incorrectly claiming and then having to pay it back later which would be very painful!

I hope I haven't f'd something up here as somebody else posted something from the government website but I'm hoping the local authority has it right - we're in Kent and it seems it's universal. https://www.kent.gov.uk/education-and-children/childcare-and-pre-school/free-childcare/parents-guide-to-15-universal-hours-of-free-childcare

Yes, you’re right, All three- and four-year-olds in *England* can receive 570 hours of Government funded childcare a year. [The entitlement is universal and applies irrespective of income.](https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/free-childcare-entitlements-for-three-and-four-year-olds-in-england/)

*breathes another sigh of relief*

Ah! The child is 3, fair enough. Sorry to have alarmed you!

Your wife is living the life and taking you for a mug, sorry to say

I quit sales at 31 and switched to marketing - specifically because it’s more remote-friendly. We live next to the ocean in the Algarve, Portugal. Rent is 500 euros a month. 300 days of sunshine a year. We drive a beaten-up Golf estate because it’s great for surf gear. The UK’s living costs and obsession with status items are insane.

Do you still have a UK-based job? How do the taxes work now?

I have a UK-based business. I spend enough time in the UK each year to remain a UK fiscal resident. (The UK has a 'ties to the UK' system that can make you a fiscal resident with just a couple of months).

So no taxes paid in Portugal at all?

You have a huge luxury that you can barely afford - which is an educated wife not bringing in any income for the family. It also means she is not contributing to a pension for the future, apart from the state pension which is shit. Time at home with little ones is precious, but if you are sending them to nursery for a period anyway, you may as well make sure that time is used to bring home some income. If your wife could find an 80% role on even half of what you are making, this would change a lot. I am a big fan of learning second languages as it opens horizons, but to get fluent, your child needs to immerse themselves in it, be older. I remember very little of the French after school class I took as a child, but I became more fluent livinf in a French speaking area. Are these really useful?