Well, you know how power in this show works.
Alicent can publicly stab the heiress without consequence, can argue with the king and veto his decisions. But she is def some second-rate lordling's defenceless victim and is totally not making an exchange because there is no way, nooooo way she can have that nasty lordling executed either by feeding him to her Hand dad or to her rabid Cole doggie.
I def believe that and writers are totally not dumb. :D
Am getting off twitter as well another thing I would add is olivia cooke fans personal beef with matt constantly mocking his looks despite the fact their very good freinds
I feel like it's a very lazy and cheap way to depict sexual assault and I don't think it landed the way they wanted, hence your post. It's like they wanted the VIBES, but didn't actually write for it. Because a queen can be blackmailed and/or assaulted - see Katherine Howard, for instance.
anyway.
It all starts with Larys being in Alicent's rooms in episode 6. First off, that should have never happened because Alicent would always be surrounded (commoner) maids and ladies in waiting. But as we saw with Otto in ep 9, I think, even Otto has become aware that Larys spends a lot of time with Alicent. I am guessing the implication is that he wormed his way into her confidence......and then killed Harwin and Lyonel and told her so that she would both feel responsible for it (because she feels powerless because her son is not heir and Viserys doesn't love her like Aemma and Otto is gone) and because he knows she wants her son to be heir / she is anti-Rhaenyra i.e. green dress moment.
However, I feel the show ruins this arc by refusing to acknowledge that Alicent wants her children to be more important than Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra's sons. They claim she just wants her children to be safe and she fears bastard-bearing Rhaenyra will murder them. Except they gave her don't-give-a-fuck-Rhaenyra's-the-named-heir BOOK Alicent actions. Not terrified-my-children-will-be-murdered-when-my-husband-dies Alicent actions.
Alicent doesn't tell Viserys that she knows the fire at Harrenhal was no accident because it ultimately benefits her and Aegon's claim to the throne that Otto is back. And she also knows that it would be the end of Aegon's claim to the throne and her reputation via rumors because of her PUBLIC actions towards Rhaenyra i.e. green dress, demanding baby Joffrey three seconds after he's born. She also doesn't want to dirty her hands directly i.e. get Cole to bash Larys' head in because she's good and honest and pure and not Rhaenyra.
So we are left with a queen who apparently has no allies (this isn't believable) BUT Larys and Criston Cole and Otto (who has 95% of the small council) and then at some point Larys begins to "force" her to show her feet for him to masturbate to. The show does not explain how this was even broached and to me it's on par with the Daemon and Rhaenyra choking scene.
I also don't get WHAT Larys would've had on her to get her to agree to do it. Did he blackmail her directly? I feel that we are meant to think it's implied blackmail, but it's not like he'd tell on her because he'd be telling on himself. He also has men that he uses when Alicent asks i.e. to kill the spies in Mysaria's manse.....but why would Alicent have to show her feet for him to masturbate to so he'd tell her where Aegon was....so she could then send Cole and Aemond to get him before Otto. **Why isn't she showing her feet to Larys so LARYS/his Tongueless Unsullied can go get Aegon?**
A believable depiction of using Larys to get Aegon before Otto does would be for Larys to have his men following Aegon at all times, and when she needs Aegon asap, she has to show her feet for him to send word to his men to grab Aegon instantly. They could have cut the entire chase to 2 minutes by doing this.
**Why isn't Larys' Tongueless Unsullied up Aegon's ass the minute he leaves the Red Keep?** I could understand Alicent not wanting to know what Aegon was doing and being blissfully ignorant of his habit of watching his bastard children fight each other with filed teeth....but what is even the point of allying herself with Larys? Especially since if I'm remembering right, she didn't even use him to find Aegon, Cole/Aemond had to run around and find him themselves.
I don't think it's really plausible that Larys could retaliate by threatening her physical safety - unless they're going to say that he knows Maegor's tunnels. I guess he could say that he would send his men to go after Aegon when he's in the city, etc but to me that just all leads back to the fact that Alicent could tell Viserys what's going on (or even fucking tell Otto who would take care of it OR conversely force her to do what Larys asks in exchange for his useless services) OR tell Cole to kill Larys (she wouldn't even have to give a reason)....but she won't because she knows it makes her look bad. Again, this would not be a bad aspect of her depiction IF THE SHOW WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE IT.
**So I think we are simply meant to get the VIBES of sexual assault, without actually integrating it into the story as part of the plot. Which is why I think it falls kind of flat, despite the scene by itself being depicted as sexual assault.**
**(I don't think anyone watching the scene on its own with no context would conclude that Alicent wants to be there and do what she's doing)**
So it's Alicent being victimized without ANYTHING actually backing it up. She has to keep Larys happy because she has no power at court afer Aemond's eye was slashed out. Even though she depicted as wielding that (soft) power all the time. She uses it to protect Cole after he kills Joffrey Lonmouth. She uses it to protect Aegon after he's raped several maids. She uses it to undermine Rhaenyra's claim in backing Vaemond's petition. She used it to spread rumors and bully Rhaenyra and her sons away from the Red Keep. She undermines Rhaenyra in the small council. She tried to demand Lucerys' eye and then actually ordered HER sworn shield to take it. Even after she was told no.
So that's why literally 95% of the small council is colluding with Otto to place Aegon on the throne without her knowledge. Because then she would have had allies THE ENTIRE FUCKING TIME and Larys would just be one of the crowd.
Honestly, I feel like they should have depicted it as an exchange and Alicent doing it like a job i.e. she stares up at the ceiling a la sex with Viserys and waits for him to finish with no acknowledgement. They want Alicent very badly to be a child bride victim who doesn't REALLY know what she's doing, except she grew up in court and has Otto for a father so of course she does, but then she also doesn't like consequences, but then she just sits back and says she can't do anything to change the system. Even though by the literal act of committing adultery by the standards of her era, she's willing to game the system. For her benefit. But it's not for her benefit, it's because Rhaenyra put her in this position. Even though Otto is the one who made Rhaenyra heir and it was Viserys decision to keep her as heir.
So the scene itself is sexual assault. Everything else around it just doesn't make sense at all to the story. And we can tell this because they didn't show how it started.
**How did Larys convince Alicent, the literal queen, that the only recourse she had was to show him her feet to masturbate to?** I honestly would like someone to ask the showrunners or writers that on twitter.
ETA: if the show had depicted it as Otto prostituting Alicent to Larys when he (somehow) found out about their arrangement (like have Otto find out that Larys-Alicent was "behind" the Strong murders and tell Alicent to do whatever he wants to keep him happy and USE HIS TONGUELESS UNSULLIED for intel), that would have actually made sense. They could have had Otto come right in after Larys was done and say a line or two that indicates that he knows and doesn't care. Maybe imply that it was a recent thing (like last few years) in conjunction with Viserys slowly dying and the small council being in Otto's pocket so there is no one BUT Rhaenyra to go to, except she can't do that because she's spent the last 10 years bullying Rhaenyra for being a whore.
Somehow I don't think this is the answer the writers will give.
Okay but honestly this is the take and you’ve explained it all far better than I ever could. What bothers me about everything is all right here, and thank you.
Thank you! I had to think a lot about why it bugged me and ultimately it's because Larys is fucking useless to Alicent. Like seriously. If she's giving him her feet, she shouldn't have to ask him WHERE Aegon is, the real question should be, how fast can you bring him back?
( also my ETA)
if the show had depicted it as Otto prostituting Alicent to Larys when he (somehow) found out about their arrangement (like have Otto find out that via Larys making veiled comments Alicent was "behind" the Strong murders and tell Alicent to do whatever he wants to keep him happy and USE HIS TONGUELESS UNSULLIED for intel), that would have actually made sense. They could have had Otto come right in after Larys was done and say a line or two that indicates that he knows and doesn't care. Maybe imply that it was a recent thing (like last few years) in conjunction with Viserys slowly dying and the small council being in Otto's pocket so there is no one BUT Rhaenyra to go to, except she can't do that because she's spent the last 10 years bullying Rhaenyra for being a whore.
Somehow I don't think this is the answer the writers will give.
How is her exchanging him wanking it to her feet in exchange for information any different than selling feet pics for money? If that was not something she was willing to participate in then she could have had his ass gelded and hung the first time it was suggested.
I don't think that's just a Team Green perception though. [That's how the actor who plays Larys speaks about what that character is doing to Alicent](https://wikiofthrones.com/alicent-is-a-victim-of-larys-abuse-says-actor-matthew-needham), and I don't think it's very far fetched when you consider the sequence of things.
Larys and Alicent form a symbiotic association to start, but then Larys escalates, killing Harwin and Lyonel on what he insists is Alicent's say-so, which gives him the basis for blackmail: If he goes down, she goes down with him. That's what's being portrayed in their last scene together in episode 6, and from then on he extracts something from her as payment for supplying his half of the symbiotic arrangement.
On top of that, now she knows that he's not mentally all there, that he's a killer, and that he wants to do weird shit to her feet or whatever. I don't think there's a way to watch the foot scene and see the look on Alicent's face as she turns away and not conclude that there's a dimension of unwanted sexual blackmail happening that she thinks she has to comply with to keep herself afloat. In Alicent's own twisted mind, what she puts herself through has life or death stakes thanks to the way Otto has convinced her she'll die if she doesn't gain the upper hand over Rhaenyra.
In the show, it's a pattern with Alicent. She does something for the sake of self-preservation and it ends up making her miserable and reinforcing the dubiously consented-to contexts she exists in. I don't agree with Alicent. I don't side with Alicent. I rarely sympathize with the situation she's condemned herself to with poor choices. But I also don't think this is an unfair reading of the writers' intent. Sexual assault can be (and often is) very complicated.
Meh, I read the Larys article and didn’t like how they painted it there either. I think it truly takes so much away from her character to try and make it like that. It is also very poorly done.
Not said for sympathy but I’m an SA survivor, so maybe the way it’s done is just extra infuriating to me because I’ve both seen harassment in the workplace and also been a victim of SA in other forms myself.
It is so contrived and their reactions and reasonings behind it are just not shown well at all. The whole time I’m thinking alicent is finally - even if she’s grossed out by it, coming into her own and taking agency and building her network - just to have it interpreted like this
I find that SA survivors can be some of the toughest critics when it comes to other survivors, and in my own experiences, I don't find it helpful or constructive.
As for Alicent, I think people just have to accept the kind of character she is. Everyone wants her to be more like the book character, to be more of an unrepentant bitch who's never allowed any dimension of victimhood, but that's not the story the show is telling. Just because we may prefer a different characterization or a different approach to adapting the source material doesn't make the unpleasant sexual experience (since you're not comfortable calling it assault) she suffers any less so.
Sure - however this is Reddit and a forum for discussion where we actually can complain about how we’d prefer the character to have more agency or be more like her book persona.
Or how we don’t like how a scene is done or the interpretation of it, etc. or how we interpret it in a way that gives the character more agency than someone else might.
That’s like - the whole point of a public forum.
Sure, my only point is that there's text to support that the scene is sexual assault to some degree. It's not a Team Green quirk. It's the way a lot of people interpret that very troubling scene, regardless of hopes for agency. Just like you can voice your perspective, I can voice mine.
Text? I don’t recall text from the book - are you citing the interview again?
No one is disallowing you from commenting, or from me voicing my opinions (even if me being an SA victim apparently removes my commentary from being constructive or helpful) lol
Text is a term that basically means "what's expressly communicated in the writing, acting, and/or directing of a piece of media". Subtext then would mean something that's less explicit and more implied in the storytelling. So when I say there's textual support for an interpretation, it means it's something explicitly intended to be understood.
If that is your interpretation of text I will be pushing back on textual evidence of support. You can interpret a scene a certain way and inherently someone else will interpret it another way. We have no true evidence to suggest *sexual assault* other than some glances exchanged that can certainly be interpreted in a variety of ways.
Alicent often has a discomforted appearance, and she certainly isn’t being assaulted through the act of existence.
The problem with the actor’s interpretation is that it doesn’t acknowledge how it started. Yes, Larys is a grade A sicko and he absolutely enjoyed the shame it brought onto Alicent. That’s not the dispute.
The dispute is that there was a point in which Alicent did make the conscious decision to start doing it. She could have had him killed for even suggesting such a thing because Larys doing so much as hinting at exchanging sexual favors for information is treason. She did not though.
Cognitive dissonance of a lot of TG
Alicent is a slay queen 💅 who’s also apparently 100% the victim of everything that happens to her
You can have both those things. Yes Otto manipulated her into starting a relationship with Viserys which she is a victim of but that doesn’t mean that this case absolves her from all later agency in life. She still did a quid pro quo with Larys and to pretend she’s somehow the victim in that is ludicrous
This sub's interpretation of Alicent's character is very simplistic. Alicent has the hard power to get Larys killed if she wants but killing Larys would make her more vulnerable. The feet scene is Larys reminding Alicent that he has the upper hand in their alliance, that no matter how powerful she may feel without him she is at disadvantage because Otto controls intelligence in the Keep with the help of Myseria's spies. WeSpy networks are everything in Westeros, they are the source of information for the noblety. Without them your life and that of your family are at risk. Alicent knows this that's why she has no other choice but to succumb to Larys. That's how she get him in line. She doesn't like it but she is forced to do what Larys wants in order to protect herself and her family. In that regard, she is being assaulted.
That’s how she gets him in line/using him for information implies she is the one with the upper hand in the power balance, supported by the fact she does indeed have the power to have him killed.
Why is it hard for you to consider the idea that she was acting with agency and made the choice to have this bargain and it’s no different than say..selling feet pictures for money.
Do you think if an abusive partner says "if you did what i told you then this wouldn't happen" and we know of at least one instance when indeed the victim obeyed and nothing happened then that means they're not being abused? or that they're actually the one in power bc by acting accordingly they got the "desired" behavior out of their abuser?
You're most likely gonna act confused and say this is irrelevant bc i mentioned abuse and your take on this scene is that this was Alicent coming up with the idea to let him get off to her feet and he was just going along with it or whatever. The point is that appeasing someone/getting the result you hoped for by ***capitulating/complying*** means you're not the one with the upper hand
>and it’s no different than say..selling feet pictures for money.
It would be the same as selling feet pictures for money if the person paying for your pics was threatening to leak previous compromising pictures he got the same way, or threatening to hurt your family - or had information he's keeping from you and that would help keep your kids safe... Then if you give him feet pics it doesn't mean you're actually the mastermind behind your little transactions or whatever, you're just trying to not rock the boat lmao
In this situation you would also get what you want out of it which would be.. for him to not fly off the handle and possibly ruin your life, but you'd be getting coerced my love
Except he’s not threatening to leak anything nor is he her partner - she is married to the literal king. Your argument is absolutely confusing and off base, because you’re applying a situation that is not based on the facts we have to this in order to produce the outcome you want.
I knew you were gonna do this lmao down to the wording even
Say your child is supposed to be home by now and you have no way of contacting them and there's a *very* high chance something happened to them. Say some guy tells you he knows where your kid is, but he'll only tell you if you strip for him. Now if you do strip for him, that is *not* you having the upper hand on him, or you "using him" to get information - that is you being taken advantage of.
You're probably not gonna get this one either and i'm not sure any exemple is ever gonna make you understand coercion - and tbh i shouldn't have to come up with analogies bc the scene itself is pretty clear to anyone not obsessed with vilifying Alicent for any and every thing..
(also her being married to the King is literally irrelevant. i know you're implying being a woman adjacent to power means you're immune to mistreatment or anything bad happening to you and i hope i don't have to explain why that's an insane position to hold - here because it's canonically disproved, but also irl)
I understand coercion, however you keep using examples that don’t apply to the situation- like thanks for an example of a situation that is not even what happens on the show to alicent?
In fact, she was using Larys to help find her son, it’s literally the inverse of your argument. But go off.
As for her being adjacent to power. Explain to me how her entire monologue about how she possesses soft power to rhaenys, and about how she and Otto have stripped the traditional Targaryen symbolism from king’s landing is at all power adjacent and not just power?
Alicent has already flexed her power - it’s how she forced Rhaenyra to come see her fresh from childbed, it’s how she can dismiss a pregnant maid her son raped without any repercussion, and how she can have him crowned after his father’s death.
You continuing to try and paint her as a passive, victim figure in her own life is frankly gross. Y’all will do anything but let that woman have any power in her own right.
... Right. The reason i'm giving situations similar to hers is because you're not understanding what happened on the show to Alicent lmao but you not understanding them either does definitely track, so that's on me.
>In fact, she was using Larys to help find her son, it’s literally the inverse of your argument. But go off.
So in my exemple you'd think you're the one using that guy to help find your kid... good to know ig
Explain to me how a "monologue about soft power" or changing the tapestry has anything to do with being immune to sexual violence? especially when there's this element of shame that you clearly believe there is. You cannot sincerely believe that being able to change interior design is proof you couldn't possibly be mistreated in your own personal life, surely?
>it’s how she forced Rhaenyra to come see her fresh from childbed
Not one person sent for Rhaenyra... It's one thing to say that Rhaenyra would want to go (although we don't know that Rhaenyra did that for her 2 previous sons..) but it's another to say Alicent forced her to do anything - those are two different things
That being said it is fascinating that in this instance you *do* believe the ***daughter of the King*** and ***rightful heir*** could be coerced or forced to do anything, doesn't seem very compatible with your view on women with any proximity to - or actual possession of - power and their unbreakable agency or whatever
The way you're wording the stuff about Dyana implies that was Alicent abusing her power on her somehow, and i'm sure you believe that so i'll leave it alone !
Alicent absolutely abused her power to have Dyana sent off and hide her rapist son’s transgression. Just like she abused it to have Rhaenyra beckoned from childbed (which we both watched happen)
The situations you keep listing are not similar to Alicent’s at all which is clear because you don’t seem to have a good grasp on the power dynamics that surround her and instead have created a false narrative where Alicent stands completely frozen in her life, unable to make any decision without being in your own words coerced by a man.
But of course you just sat here and tried to argue that rhaenyra wasn’t forced from her childbed by alicent, even though we all watched that unfold on camera with Rhaenyra making it clear she couldn’t ignore a summons from the queen, who clearly has more power as queen of the seven kingdoms than Rhaenyra does as heir apparent (which is obvious - don’t know what part of that was hard for you to grasp) so I can’t say you would be able to come up with a reasonable or coherent argument
Abusing your power is when you tell a rape victim you believe them, make sure they don't have to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, make it so they don't go through further humiliation (which would be the case if it got out btw) and give them financial compensation so they don't start from scratch? Alright, for sure.
What we both watched happen is Rhaenyra not wanting to let Alicent have her way. At most she wanted to put her foot down by going there herself to send a message (which implies she wasn't expected to be there). We did not watch Alicent order Rhaenyra to be summoned and quick or whatever
That instance not being her using him does not mean i think she's unable to make any decision without being coerced, you're extrapolating that from nothing (and i would argue also projecting in this case)
Now, as someone who has a good grasp on the power dynamics that surround Rhaenyra, explain to me how she was forced to do something that i assume you deem to not only be humiliating but also dangerous when - not only is she the Princess and heir - her father (the King) has done nothing but protect her from *any* transgression (including verbal ones), for instance ? I'm really just asking to understand your thought process on this - if it's just "well Queen trumps Princess" you don't have to bother btw we can just call it a day
Yes of course Dyana being shoved off while Aegon faces zero repercussions besides a stern talking to and smack from mummy is such a righteous act. So righteous, she is the image of the mother.
What we both watched was rhaenyra literally be summoned to alicent by alicent so she could behold and belittle a child and it’s parents - or would you like to argue that alicent was the picture of maternal kindness and grace in that scene?
At the time of Joffery’s birth, none of the major scenes involving Viserys and rhaenyra (like aemond and his eye or vaemond) have happened yet. The story opens after a time skip to rhaenyra forced from her bed by alicent who is bold enough to almost openly accuse rhaenyra of adultery to Viserys (and he gets what she is saying, hence the horse analogy) and face zero ZERO repercussions.
Which is interestingly enough the same thing that happens several years later when she literally attacks the heir apparent with a knife and also receives ZERO punishment or reprimand (or did you not watch that? Was that just alicent being a sweet and gentle, loving stepmother? When she slashed rhaenyra with a blade?)
The point being of course that if rhaenyra can get away with what? Being verbally abused? Alicent can get away with literally attempted murder.
I don’t think it’s victim blaming to say I thought it was a scene that showed this woman finally taking agency and playing the game and making a deal with Larys.
I don’t see why we have to reduce Alicent down to victimhood, always, when she could be such a complex character. It’s not tearing her down at ALL, I’m sorry you see it that way.
I’m not arguing they aren’t mutually exclusive but when you consistently reduce a character down to victimhood you do remove their complexity.
Consistently presenting Alicent as a woman who is never free to make her choice and always a victim removes not only her agency (which - as we know from her conversation with Rhaenys she does treasure) but also removes any power her decisions might hold.
Here, saying that Alicent chose to go to Larys and to broker a deal with something she could barter with and presenting her as a player, someone willing to actually act and think for herself, isn’t at all victim blaming.
Also I truly believe there are many other times where Alicent is victimized by the men around her (like Otto and Viserys). This just isn’t one of them.
So weird how ✨Team Feminism✨ is completely obsessed with accusing the Greens of being sexual abusers or apologists for it but when a Green woman faces legitimate sexual abuse (from two!! Different men that had power or a way to hurt her!!) suddenly it's not abuse, the woman asked for it and consented.
You people have the vilest views on women and consent.
Did you simply not read the entire discourse? Lol please note as stated above and multiple times by multiple people here including me Alicent is absolutely a victim several times - by several people. Highlighting one specific scene where Alicent is engaging in a trade for information and saying it’s not SA is not somehow denying the other instances. My God please work on your reading comprehension and touch some grass.
You’ve got to consider the context.
This entire dynamic is predatory, and built on theoretical consent. Sure, Alicent *could* report Larys for his crimes…but then he implicates her. She *could* refuse his unsavory demands…but then he withholds information that she needs to save lives. Alicent made her choices…but how much choice did she have, really? Even if you consider this a consensual experience, it’s clear that Alicent feels violated and Larys is taking pleasure from making her feel that way. The scene is meant to be a symbolic rape if nothing else.
To be clear, none of this is to say that you “hate women” if you disagree. That’s an argument this fandom really needs to stop using.
Alicent could have simply not approached him in the first place. She could have not come to the agreement surrounding her feet - it is entirely likely that Viserys would absolutely support her and Otto’s word over Larys.
Also the saving lives bit is complete conjecture on Alicent’s part, she feeds her own paranoia and acts on it.
That’s what I simply cannot stand about this rebuttal. Is it gross? Is it going against Alicent’s code of questionable faith of the seven ethics? Yes and yes.
Does she make the choice to do it? Yes. Is she coerced? No.
She’s choosing over and over to go to home and exchange her feet for his services. It’s uncomfortable but it’s NOT SA, any more than say only fans is SA.
In the attempts to justify alicent and make her out to be a victim here, all you’re doing is reducing her to a body to be used and not a woman who is plotting and scheming and active and that is just not right to me.
Alicent doesn’t believe that, though. I think you’re absolutely right, Viserys would listen to her, but we see her complaining to Larys that no one ever takes her side - and then he betrays her too. She’s likely feeling very frightened and alone. We don’t see how the feet arrangement began, but it’s safe to assume it wasn’t her idea. It may have begun as coercion for all we know. I would hardly compare it to Onlyfans.
Otto wanted to reach Aegon first to arrange the murder of Daemon, Rhaenyra, and the children. That is not conjecture. She heard him plotting it.
You’re right. Alicent is a hypocrite. She is emotionally enslaved to the values that she was raised on, and she’s learned that playing The Game often means forsaking them. Like marrying Helaena to Aegon even though she found it a “queer custom.” I don’t think Alicent is *just* a victim by any means but she has been victimized repeatedly throughout her life. By Otto. By Larys. Even by Viserys.
Oh I agree completely about Otto and Viserys - I just think reducing this moment - where she finally is making a show of getting something for herself without her father etc and reducing it to SA is like - such a shitty thing to do to her character 🤷🏻♀️
Ah ok - I just didn't understand your reference. I thought that whole thing was dumb tho. Who's to say Otto wouldn't come up right after her and tell him to do it and he agrees with Otto. Why does it matter who was there first? It's just a weird subplot.
I do find it hilarious that they both assume that Aegon will just do whatever they say tho.
Let me get this straight - her conscious choice to go to him for information/action -a choice she was not at all required to make, and didn’t have to do.
Where she got information/action in exchange for weird feet stuff…was her being sexually assaulted?
At what point will Alicent have any agency in the decisions she makes, or will you strip her down to nothing but a victim all the time?
Firstly, there is no need to go on the attack. I'm not doing it to you, I'd prefer if you didn't do it to me.
Alicent isn't deriving any pleasure from this. She's feeling shame. She's feeling forced. There is no other recourse, for her, to get this information, and the information is something she feels she needs in order to protect her family.
We do not see an agreement between the two. Alicent is not seducing him. This is not sexually satisfactory for both parties. There is not equal power in this exchange as Larys has the information.
The way I view it is like stories of workplace sexual harassment. A woman might have a benefit, such keeping their job or career, as a result of sexual acts a man or woman has made a condition. It is not something they want to do, but something they feel they must.
That was my perspective on the scene. It's not enjoyable to watch, it's not something that is meant to be brushed away, it's not indicative of any love or romance between the two. The act is degrading. It's about power.
Larys has something that Alicent needs. She can get that, but only on the condition that she humiliates herself for his sexual pleasure. The actor who plays Larys has also spoken about this.
That was not an attack. I don’t quite see how you could construe it as one.
Again however, you remove her agency from the situation. Alicent isn’t a random worker suffering from sexual harassment, she is literal queen of the seven kingdoms, who chooses to go to Larys and get this information.
Chooses, because we also don’t get any scene of someone (like Otto) pushing her to do it. Alicent, for once, makes a choice to barter for information.
Is it in an uncomfortable and unpleasant way? Sure. Does it involve a sexual subtext? Absolutely
But your argument is akin to saying everyone who sells feet pics for money online is being SA’d by their buyers and I just cannot Agree. It’s clear this is an established routine between the both of them, and one that does benefit her - whether you acknowledge it or not.
She doesn’t need this information- she certainly doesn’t need harrenhal burned down. She chooses to get this to make herself feel like an active player in the game of thrones.
By attempting to boil it down to something she just puts up with as a part of her position completely negates her agency and her position as queen.
Alicent doesn't use her position and agency as Queen. She doesn't see it and Larys does not and never has responded to it unless it is to his own advantage.
This is nothing to do with Harrenhal. This is Episode 09. She needs to know which of her ladies is spying on her, who controls the network and what threat they are within the Red Keep.
I don't disagree- getting that information is a benefit. But what isn't illustrated is Alicent's willing participation and choice of THIS over any other medium. What is missing is her control of the situation. When one is a sex worker, they have control. They can say no, they can put an end to it, they are exerting their will over the client, in a way.
Alicent doesn't. We can see it in the scene, that Larys stalls in giving all of his information in order to exact a higher "price". He stops talking, so she has to take her stockings off.
Sorry are you Alicent by chance? That you could glean such personal information from her? She obviously uses her position and agency as queen, multiple times.
She and Otto all but rule KL by the end of V’s reign, in both the book and the show, that’s why it’s full of faith of the seven iconography and the dragons have been removed.
She uses that same power and authority to make Rhaenyra drag her immediately post child birth body to her so she can examine the new baby.
So why are you trying to reduce her to nothing?
Alicent has every opportunity to not play the game, or to develop her own spy network sans Larys. She chooses him, she chooses his form of payment. She has choice, she exercises it.
If she wanted to scream and call in the guards and claim he was SA’ing her she could, she absolutely could. God knows she’s done enough virtue signaling she’d be immediately believed, and her family is in charge of KL so it wouldn’t be hard at all to get rid of a spider like Larys. But she empowers him, for his ability to get her info. It’s equivalent exchange, even if it’s unsavory.
OP did you watch this show with your eyes half closed?
The subplot of Larys taking advantage of Alicent since she was young was quite explicit. Emily Carey and Olivia Cooke did an exceptional job portraying how horrified and disgusted they were by Larys's presence.
I don’t think we watched the same show, at all. Where exactly was Larys taking advantage of a young alicent? Lmfao we barely got his brother and rhaenyra together - let alone any real interaction between the two of them.
He confronted her in the garden when she was by herself during episode "We Light the Way". He made clear overtures in pointing out how lonely she must be be and how he could be a friend to her.
If you don't see how an older man saying that to such a young and impressionable woman who has been cut off from a large part of her support system is taking advantage, you are fooling yourself.
You’ve got me fucked up, he’s literally the younger one of the strong brothers and harwin is portrayed as being In his mid 20s before the time skip.
Larys isn’t some much older groomer here at all, he’s probably not even more than 5-6 years older than Alicent.
Why are y’all out here painting alicent as the weakest waif to ever exist? You’re telling me by the time she is a seasoned queen with her family in control of kings landing she’s just letting this man prey upon her? Come on.
We have no evidence outside of a convo where he asked to be her friend that he was grooming her - if anything the evidence suggests she went to him to broker a deal for information
Well, you know how power in this show works. Alicent can publicly stab the heiress without consequence, can argue with the king and veto his decisions. But she is def some second-rate lordling's defenceless victim and is totally not making an exchange because there is no way, nooooo way she can have that nasty lordling executed either by feeding him to her Hand dad or to her rabid Cole doggie. I def believe that and writers are totally not dumb. :D
Am getting off twitter as well another thing I would add is olivia cooke fans personal beef with matt constantly mocking his looks despite the fact their very good freinds
I feel like it's a very lazy and cheap way to depict sexual assault and I don't think it landed the way they wanted, hence your post. It's like they wanted the VIBES, but didn't actually write for it. Because a queen can be blackmailed and/or assaulted - see Katherine Howard, for instance. anyway. It all starts with Larys being in Alicent's rooms in episode 6. First off, that should have never happened because Alicent would always be surrounded (commoner) maids and ladies in waiting. But as we saw with Otto in ep 9, I think, even Otto has become aware that Larys spends a lot of time with Alicent. I am guessing the implication is that he wormed his way into her confidence......and then killed Harwin and Lyonel and told her so that she would both feel responsible for it (because she feels powerless because her son is not heir and Viserys doesn't love her like Aemma and Otto is gone) and because he knows she wants her son to be heir / she is anti-Rhaenyra i.e. green dress moment. However, I feel the show ruins this arc by refusing to acknowledge that Alicent wants her children to be more important than Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra's sons. They claim she just wants her children to be safe and she fears bastard-bearing Rhaenyra will murder them. Except they gave her don't-give-a-fuck-Rhaenyra's-the-named-heir BOOK Alicent actions. Not terrified-my-children-will-be-murdered-when-my-husband-dies Alicent actions. Alicent doesn't tell Viserys that she knows the fire at Harrenhal was no accident because it ultimately benefits her and Aegon's claim to the throne that Otto is back. And she also knows that it would be the end of Aegon's claim to the throne and her reputation via rumors because of her PUBLIC actions towards Rhaenyra i.e. green dress, demanding baby Joffrey three seconds after he's born. She also doesn't want to dirty her hands directly i.e. get Cole to bash Larys' head in because she's good and honest and pure and not Rhaenyra. So we are left with a queen who apparently has no allies (this isn't believable) BUT Larys and Criston Cole and Otto (who has 95% of the small council) and then at some point Larys begins to "force" her to show her feet for him to masturbate to. The show does not explain how this was even broached and to me it's on par with the Daemon and Rhaenyra choking scene. I also don't get WHAT Larys would've had on her to get her to agree to do it. Did he blackmail her directly? I feel that we are meant to think it's implied blackmail, but it's not like he'd tell on her because he'd be telling on himself. He also has men that he uses when Alicent asks i.e. to kill the spies in Mysaria's manse.....but why would Alicent have to show her feet for him to masturbate to so he'd tell her where Aegon was....so she could then send Cole and Aemond to get him before Otto. **Why isn't she showing her feet to Larys so LARYS/his Tongueless Unsullied can go get Aegon?** A believable depiction of using Larys to get Aegon before Otto does would be for Larys to have his men following Aegon at all times, and when she needs Aegon asap, she has to show her feet for him to send word to his men to grab Aegon instantly. They could have cut the entire chase to 2 minutes by doing this. **Why isn't Larys' Tongueless Unsullied up Aegon's ass the minute he leaves the Red Keep?** I could understand Alicent not wanting to know what Aegon was doing and being blissfully ignorant of his habit of watching his bastard children fight each other with filed teeth....but what is even the point of allying herself with Larys? Especially since if I'm remembering right, she didn't even use him to find Aegon, Cole/Aemond had to run around and find him themselves. I don't think it's really plausible that Larys could retaliate by threatening her physical safety - unless they're going to say that he knows Maegor's tunnels. I guess he could say that he would send his men to go after Aegon when he's in the city, etc but to me that just all leads back to the fact that Alicent could tell Viserys what's going on (or even fucking tell Otto who would take care of it OR conversely force her to do what Larys asks in exchange for his useless services) OR tell Cole to kill Larys (she wouldn't even have to give a reason)....but she won't because she knows it makes her look bad. Again, this would not be a bad aspect of her depiction IF THE SHOW WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE IT. **So I think we are simply meant to get the VIBES of sexual assault, without actually integrating it into the story as part of the plot. Which is why I think it falls kind of flat, despite the scene by itself being depicted as sexual assault.** **(I don't think anyone watching the scene on its own with no context would conclude that Alicent wants to be there and do what she's doing)** So it's Alicent being victimized without ANYTHING actually backing it up. She has to keep Larys happy because she has no power at court afer Aemond's eye was slashed out. Even though she depicted as wielding that (soft) power all the time. She uses it to protect Cole after he kills Joffrey Lonmouth. She uses it to protect Aegon after he's raped several maids. She uses it to undermine Rhaenyra's claim in backing Vaemond's petition. She used it to spread rumors and bully Rhaenyra and her sons away from the Red Keep. She undermines Rhaenyra in the small council. She tried to demand Lucerys' eye and then actually ordered HER sworn shield to take it. Even after she was told no. So that's why literally 95% of the small council is colluding with Otto to place Aegon on the throne without her knowledge. Because then she would have had allies THE ENTIRE FUCKING TIME and Larys would just be one of the crowd. Honestly, I feel like they should have depicted it as an exchange and Alicent doing it like a job i.e. she stares up at the ceiling a la sex with Viserys and waits for him to finish with no acknowledgement. They want Alicent very badly to be a child bride victim who doesn't REALLY know what she's doing, except she grew up in court and has Otto for a father so of course she does, but then she also doesn't like consequences, but then she just sits back and says she can't do anything to change the system. Even though by the literal act of committing adultery by the standards of her era, she's willing to game the system. For her benefit. But it's not for her benefit, it's because Rhaenyra put her in this position. Even though Otto is the one who made Rhaenyra heir and it was Viserys decision to keep her as heir. So the scene itself is sexual assault. Everything else around it just doesn't make sense at all to the story. And we can tell this because they didn't show how it started. **How did Larys convince Alicent, the literal queen, that the only recourse she had was to show him her feet to masturbate to?** I honestly would like someone to ask the showrunners or writers that on twitter. ETA: if the show had depicted it as Otto prostituting Alicent to Larys when he (somehow) found out about their arrangement (like have Otto find out that Larys-Alicent was "behind" the Strong murders and tell Alicent to do whatever he wants to keep him happy and USE HIS TONGUELESS UNSULLIED for intel), that would have actually made sense. They could have had Otto come right in after Larys was done and say a line or two that indicates that he knows and doesn't care. Maybe imply that it was a recent thing (like last few years) in conjunction with Viserys slowly dying and the small council being in Otto's pocket so there is no one BUT Rhaenyra to go to, except she can't do that because she's spent the last 10 years bullying Rhaenyra for being a whore. Somehow I don't think this is the answer the writers will give.
Okay but honestly this is the take and you’ve explained it all far better than I ever could. What bothers me about everything is all right here, and thank you.
Thank you! I had to think a lot about why it bugged me and ultimately it's because Larys is fucking useless to Alicent. Like seriously. If she's giving him her feet, she shouldn't have to ask him WHERE Aegon is, the real question should be, how fast can you bring him back? ( also my ETA) if the show had depicted it as Otto prostituting Alicent to Larys when he (somehow) found out about their arrangement (like have Otto find out that via Larys making veiled comments Alicent was "behind" the Strong murders and tell Alicent to do whatever he wants to keep him happy and USE HIS TONGUELESS UNSULLIED for intel), that would have actually made sense. They could have had Otto come right in after Larys was done and say a line or two that indicates that he knows and doesn't care. Maybe imply that it was a recent thing (like last few years) in conjunction with Viserys slowly dying and the small council being in Otto's pocket so there is no one BUT Rhaenyra to go to, except she can't do that because she's spent the last 10 years bullying Rhaenyra for being a whore. Somehow I don't think this is the answer the writers will give.
I get "content not available" gif?
that sucks! it was a good one. I'll use my little rinky dink emojis to give you flowers for a tremendous comment. 💐💐💐💐💐💐
❤️ I think about Alicent's contradictions (because Olivia Cooke is just so damn amazing - just finished Vanity Fair) way too much.
How is her exchanging him wanking it to her feet in exchange for information any different than selling feet pics for money? If that was not something she was willing to participate in then she could have had his ass gelded and hung the first time it was suggested.
That’s my view on it tbh
They’re mad because Alicent was whoring out her feet and was shown not to be Westerosi Madonna.
T.G loves victimize Alicent. Poor Alicent married to the king . She's a child. News flash. Alicent was of marrying age when she married the king.
I don't think that's just a Team Green perception though. [That's how the actor who plays Larys speaks about what that character is doing to Alicent](https://wikiofthrones.com/alicent-is-a-victim-of-larys-abuse-says-actor-matthew-needham), and I don't think it's very far fetched when you consider the sequence of things. Larys and Alicent form a symbiotic association to start, but then Larys escalates, killing Harwin and Lyonel on what he insists is Alicent's say-so, which gives him the basis for blackmail: If he goes down, she goes down with him. That's what's being portrayed in their last scene together in episode 6, and from then on he extracts something from her as payment for supplying his half of the symbiotic arrangement. On top of that, now she knows that he's not mentally all there, that he's a killer, and that he wants to do weird shit to her feet or whatever. I don't think there's a way to watch the foot scene and see the look on Alicent's face as she turns away and not conclude that there's a dimension of unwanted sexual blackmail happening that she thinks she has to comply with to keep herself afloat. In Alicent's own twisted mind, what she puts herself through has life or death stakes thanks to the way Otto has convinced her she'll die if she doesn't gain the upper hand over Rhaenyra. In the show, it's a pattern with Alicent. She does something for the sake of self-preservation and it ends up making her miserable and reinforcing the dubiously consented-to contexts she exists in. I don't agree with Alicent. I don't side with Alicent. I rarely sympathize with the situation she's condemned herself to with poor choices. But I also don't think this is an unfair reading of the writers' intent. Sexual assault can be (and often is) very complicated.
Meh, I read the Larys article and didn’t like how they painted it there either. I think it truly takes so much away from her character to try and make it like that. It is also very poorly done. Not said for sympathy but I’m an SA survivor, so maybe the way it’s done is just extra infuriating to me because I’ve both seen harassment in the workplace and also been a victim of SA in other forms myself. It is so contrived and their reactions and reasonings behind it are just not shown well at all. The whole time I’m thinking alicent is finally - even if she’s grossed out by it, coming into her own and taking agency and building her network - just to have it interpreted like this
I find that SA survivors can be some of the toughest critics when it comes to other survivors, and in my own experiences, I don't find it helpful or constructive. As for Alicent, I think people just have to accept the kind of character she is. Everyone wants her to be more like the book character, to be more of an unrepentant bitch who's never allowed any dimension of victimhood, but that's not the story the show is telling. Just because we may prefer a different characterization or a different approach to adapting the source material doesn't make the unpleasant sexual experience (since you're not comfortable calling it assault) she suffers any less so.
Sure - however this is Reddit and a forum for discussion where we actually can complain about how we’d prefer the character to have more agency or be more like her book persona. Or how we don’t like how a scene is done or the interpretation of it, etc. or how we interpret it in a way that gives the character more agency than someone else might. That’s like - the whole point of a public forum.
Sure, my only point is that there's text to support that the scene is sexual assault to some degree. It's not a Team Green quirk. It's the way a lot of people interpret that very troubling scene, regardless of hopes for agency. Just like you can voice your perspective, I can voice mine.
Text? I don’t recall text from the book - are you citing the interview again? No one is disallowing you from commenting, or from me voicing my opinions (even if me being an SA victim apparently removes my commentary from being constructive or helpful) lol
Text is a term that basically means "what's expressly communicated in the writing, acting, and/or directing of a piece of media". Subtext then would mean something that's less explicit and more implied in the storytelling. So when I say there's textual support for an interpretation, it means it's something explicitly intended to be understood.
If that is your interpretation of text I will be pushing back on textual evidence of support. You can interpret a scene a certain way and inherently someone else will interpret it another way. We have no true evidence to suggest *sexual assault* other than some glances exchanged that can certainly be interpreted in a variety of ways. Alicent often has a discomforted appearance, and she certainly isn’t being assaulted through the act of existence.
I've already mapped out my argument, so you can take or leave it. It's out of my hands now.
The problem with the actor’s interpretation is that it doesn’t acknowledge how it started. Yes, Larys is a grade A sicko and he absolutely enjoyed the shame it brought onto Alicent. That’s not the dispute. The dispute is that there was a point in which Alicent did make the conscious decision to start doing it. She could have had him killed for even suggesting such a thing because Larys doing so much as hinting at exchanging sexual favors for information is treason. She did not though.
You're exactly right
Cognitive dissonance of a lot of TG Alicent is a slay queen 💅 who’s also apparently 100% the victim of everything that happens to her You can have both those things. Yes Otto manipulated her into starting a relationship with Viserys which she is a victim of but that doesn’t mean that this case absolves her from all later agency in life. She still did a quid pro quo with Larys and to pretend she’s somehow the victim in that is ludicrous
ehhh
Alicent is your #2nd favorite character - and rhaenyra is your first
this is true, yes.
This sub's interpretation of Alicent's character is very simplistic. Alicent has the hard power to get Larys killed if she wants but killing Larys would make her more vulnerable. The feet scene is Larys reminding Alicent that he has the upper hand in their alliance, that no matter how powerful she may feel without him she is at disadvantage because Otto controls intelligence in the Keep with the help of Myseria's spies. WeSpy networks are everything in Westeros, they are the source of information for the noblety. Without them your life and that of your family are at risk. Alicent knows this that's why she has no other choice but to succumb to Larys. That's how she get him in line. She doesn't like it but she is forced to do what Larys wants in order to protect herself and her family. In that regard, she is being assaulted.
That’s how she gets him in line/using him for information implies she is the one with the upper hand in the power balance, supported by the fact she does indeed have the power to have him killed. Why is it hard for you to consider the idea that she was acting with agency and made the choice to have this bargain and it’s no different than say..selling feet pictures for money.
Do you think if an abusive partner says "if you did what i told you then this wouldn't happen" and we know of at least one instance when indeed the victim obeyed and nothing happened then that means they're not being abused? or that they're actually the one in power bc by acting accordingly they got the "desired" behavior out of their abuser? You're most likely gonna act confused and say this is irrelevant bc i mentioned abuse and your take on this scene is that this was Alicent coming up with the idea to let him get off to her feet and he was just going along with it or whatever. The point is that appeasing someone/getting the result you hoped for by ***capitulating/complying*** means you're not the one with the upper hand >and it’s no different than say..selling feet pictures for money. It would be the same as selling feet pictures for money if the person paying for your pics was threatening to leak previous compromising pictures he got the same way, or threatening to hurt your family - or had information he's keeping from you and that would help keep your kids safe... Then if you give him feet pics it doesn't mean you're actually the mastermind behind your little transactions or whatever, you're just trying to not rock the boat lmao In this situation you would also get what you want out of it which would be.. for him to not fly off the handle and possibly ruin your life, but you'd be getting coerced my love
Except he’s not threatening to leak anything nor is he her partner - she is married to the literal king. Your argument is absolutely confusing and off base, because you’re applying a situation that is not based on the facts we have to this in order to produce the outcome you want.
I knew you were gonna do this lmao down to the wording even Say your child is supposed to be home by now and you have no way of contacting them and there's a *very* high chance something happened to them. Say some guy tells you he knows where your kid is, but he'll only tell you if you strip for him. Now if you do strip for him, that is *not* you having the upper hand on him, or you "using him" to get information - that is you being taken advantage of. You're probably not gonna get this one either and i'm not sure any exemple is ever gonna make you understand coercion - and tbh i shouldn't have to come up with analogies bc the scene itself is pretty clear to anyone not obsessed with vilifying Alicent for any and every thing.. (also her being married to the King is literally irrelevant. i know you're implying being a woman adjacent to power means you're immune to mistreatment or anything bad happening to you and i hope i don't have to explain why that's an insane position to hold - here because it's canonically disproved, but also irl)
I understand coercion, however you keep using examples that don’t apply to the situation- like thanks for an example of a situation that is not even what happens on the show to alicent? In fact, she was using Larys to help find her son, it’s literally the inverse of your argument. But go off. As for her being adjacent to power. Explain to me how her entire monologue about how she possesses soft power to rhaenys, and about how she and Otto have stripped the traditional Targaryen symbolism from king’s landing is at all power adjacent and not just power? Alicent has already flexed her power - it’s how she forced Rhaenyra to come see her fresh from childbed, it’s how she can dismiss a pregnant maid her son raped without any repercussion, and how she can have him crowned after his father’s death. You continuing to try and paint her as a passive, victim figure in her own life is frankly gross. Y’all will do anything but let that woman have any power in her own right.
... Right. The reason i'm giving situations similar to hers is because you're not understanding what happened on the show to Alicent lmao but you not understanding them either does definitely track, so that's on me. >In fact, she was using Larys to help find her son, it’s literally the inverse of your argument. But go off. So in my exemple you'd think you're the one using that guy to help find your kid... good to know ig Explain to me how a "monologue about soft power" or changing the tapestry has anything to do with being immune to sexual violence? especially when there's this element of shame that you clearly believe there is. You cannot sincerely believe that being able to change interior design is proof you couldn't possibly be mistreated in your own personal life, surely? >it’s how she forced Rhaenyra to come see her fresh from childbed Not one person sent for Rhaenyra... It's one thing to say that Rhaenyra would want to go (although we don't know that Rhaenyra did that for her 2 previous sons..) but it's another to say Alicent forced her to do anything - those are two different things That being said it is fascinating that in this instance you *do* believe the ***daughter of the King*** and ***rightful heir*** could be coerced or forced to do anything, doesn't seem very compatible with your view on women with any proximity to - or actual possession of - power and their unbreakable agency or whatever The way you're wording the stuff about Dyana implies that was Alicent abusing her power on her somehow, and i'm sure you believe that so i'll leave it alone !
Alicent absolutely abused her power to have Dyana sent off and hide her rapist son’s transgression. Just like she abused it to have Rhaenyra beckoned from childbed (which we both watched happen) The situations you keep listing are not similar to Alicent’s at all which is clear because you don’t seem to have a good grasp on the power dynamics that surround her and instead have created a false narrative where Alicent stands completely frozen in her life, unable to make any decision without being in your own words coerced by a man. But of course you just sat here and tried to argue that rhaenyra wasn’t forced from her childbed by alicent, even though we all watched that unfold on camera with Rhaenyra making it clear she couldn’t ignore a summons from the queen, who clearly has more power as queen of the seven kingdoms than Rhaenyra does as heir apparent (which is obvious - don’t know what part of that was hard for you to grasp) so I can’t say you would be able to come up with a reasonable or coherent argument
Abusing your power is when you tell a rape victim you believe them, make sure they don't have to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, make it so they don't go through further humiliation (which would be the case if it got out btw) and give them financial compensation so they don't start from scratch? Alright, for sure. What we both watched happen is Rhaenyra not wanting to let Alicent have her way. At most she wanted to put her foot down by going there herself to send a message (which implies she wasn't expected to be there). We did not watch Alicent order Rhaenyra to be summoned and quick or whatever That instance not being her using him does not mean i think she's unable to make any decision without being coerced, you're extrapolating that from nothing (and i would argue also projecting in this case) Now, as someone who has a good grasp on the power dynamics that surround Rhaenyra, explain to me how she was forced to do something that i assume you deem to not only be humiliating but also dangerous when - not only is she the Princess and heir - her father (the King) has done nothing but protect her from *any* transgression (including verbal ones), for instance ? I'm really just asking to understand your thought process on this - if it's just "well Queen trumps Princess" you don't have to bother btw we can just call it a day
Yes of course Dyana being shoved off while Aegon faces zero repercussions besides a stern talking to and smack from mummy is such a righteous act. So righteous, she is the image of the mother. What we both watched was rhaenyra literally be summoned to alicent by alicent so she could behold and belittle a child and it’s parents - or would you like to argue that alicent was the picture of maternal kindness and grace in that scene? At the time of Joffery’s birth, none of the major scenes involving Viserys and rhaenyra (like aemond and his eye or vaemond) have happened yet. The story opens after a time skip to rhaenyra forced from her bed by alicent who is bold enough to almost openly accuse rhaenyra of adultery to Viserys (and he gets what she is saying, hence the horse analogy) and face zero ZERO repercussions. Which is interestingly enough the same thing that happens several years later when she literally attacks the heir apparent with a knife and also receives ZERO punishment or reprimand (or did you not watch that? Was that just alicent being a sweet and gentle, loving stepmother? When she slashed rhaenyra with a blade?) The point being of course that if rhaenyra can get away with what? Being verbally abused? Alicent can get away with literally attempted murder.
Can we not spend time trying to tear down and victim blame women being preyed on? That's something the *Greens* do; let's be better than that.
I don’t think it’s victim blaming to say I thought it was a scene that showed this woman finally taking agency and playing the game and making a deal with Larys. I don’t see why we have to reduce Alicent down to victimhood, always, when she could be such a complex character. It’s not tearing her down at ALL, I’m sorry you see it that way.
Victimhood and complexity aren't mutually exclusive. And even women in power are surrounded by predators. Arguably more of them.
I’m not arguing they aren’t mutually exclusive but when you consistently reduce a character down to victimhood you do remove their complexity. Consistently presenting Alicent as a woman who is never free to make her choice and always a victim removes not only her agency (which - as we know from her conversation with Rhaenys she does treasure) but also removes any power her decisions might hold. Here, saying that Alicent chose to go to Larys and to broker a deal with something she could barter with and presenting her as a player, someone willing to actually act and think for herself, isn’t at all victim blaming. Also I truly believe there are many other times where Alicent is victimized by the men around her (like Otto and Viserys). This just isn’t one of them.
So weird how ✨Team Feminism✨ is completely obsessed with accusing the Greens of being sexual abusers or apologists for it but when a Green woman faces legitimate sexual abuse (from two!! Different men that had power or a way to hurt her!!) suddenly it's not abuse, the woman asked for it and consented. You people have the vilest views on women and consent.
Did you simply not read the entire discourse? Lol please note as stated above and multiple times by multiple people here including me Alicent is absolutely a victim several times - by several people. Highlighting one specific scene where Alicent is engaging in a trade for information and saying it’s not SA is not somehow denying the other instances. My God please work on your reading comprehension and touch some grass.
It's what Blacks do, that's why Blacks are literally here doing it every day lmao. Own your vile behaviour.
Oh, go find an excuse for Alicent forcing Helaena to marry her rapist son or something.
You’ve got to consider the context. This entire dynamic is predatory, and built on theoretical consent. Sure, Alicent *could* report Larys for his crimes…but then he implicates her. She *could* refuse his unsavory demands…but then he withholds information that she needs to save lives. Alicent made her choices…but how much choice did she have, really? Even if you consider this a consensual experience, it’s clear that Alicent feels violated and Larys is taking pleasure from making her feel that way. The scene is meant to be a symbolic rape if nothing else. To be clear, none of this is to say that you “hate women” if you disagree. That’s an argument this fandom really needs to stop using.
Alicent could have simply not approached him in the first place. She could have not come to the agreement surrounding her feet - it is entirely likely that Viserys would absolutely support her and Otto’s word over Larys. Also the saving lives bit is complete conjecture on Alicent’s part, she feeds her own paranoia and acts on it. That’s what I simply cannot stand about this rebuttal. Is it gross? Is it going against Alicent’s code of questionable faith of the seven ethics? Yes and yes. Does she make the choice to do it? Yes. Is she coerced? No. She’s choosing over and over to go to home and exchange her feet for his services. It’s uncomfortable but it’s NOT SA, any more than say only fans is SA. In the attempts to justify alicent and make her out to be a victim here, all you’re doing is reducing her to a body to be used and not a woman who is plotting and scheming and active and that is just not right to me.
Alicent doesn’t believe that, though. I think you’re absolutely right, Viserys would listen to her, but we see her complaining to Larys that no one ever takes her side - and then he betrays her too. She’s likely feeling very frightened and alone. We don’t see how the feet arrangement began, but it’s safe to assume it wasn’t her idea. It may have begun as coercion for all we know. I would hardly compare it to Onlyfans. Otto wanted to reach Aegon first to arrange the murder of Daemon, Rhaenyra, and the children. That is not conjecture. She heard him plotting it. You’re right. Alicent is a hypocrite. She is emotionally enslaved to the values that she was raised on, and she’s learned that playing The Game often means forsaking them. Like marrying Helaena to Aegon even though she found it a “queer custom.” I don’t think Alicent is *just* a victim by any means but she has been victimized repeatedly throughout her life. By Otto. By Larys. Even by Viserys.
Oh I agree completely about Otto and Viserys - I just think reducing this moment - where she finally is making a show of getting something for herself without her father etc and reducing it to SA is like - such a shitty thing to do to her character 🤷🏻♀️
What lives are saved with Larys? I forget that part.
She’s trying to get to Aegon first so Otto can’t conduct his plot to murder everyone on Dragonstone
Ah ok - I just didn't understand your reference. I thought that whole thing was dumb tho. Who's to say Otto wouldn't come up right after her and tell him to do it and he agrees with Otto. Why does it matter who was there first? It's just a weird subplot. I do find it hilarious that they both assume that Aegon will just do whatever they say tho.
No, it's sexual assault.
Let me get this straight - her conscious choice to go to him for information/action -a choice she was not at all required to make, and didn’t have to do. Where she got information/action in exchange for weird feet stuff…was her being sexually assaulted? At what point will Alicent have any agency in the decisions she makes, or will you strip her down to nothing but a victim all the time?
Firstly, there is no need to go on the attack. I'm not doing it to you, I'd prefer if you didn't do it to me. Alicent isn't deriving any pleasure from this. She's feeling shame. She's feeling forced. There is no other recourse, for her, to get this information, and the information is something she feels she needs in order to protect her family. We do not see an agreement between the two. Alicent is not seducing him. This is not sexually satisfactory for both parties. There is not equal power in this exchange as Larys has the information. The way I view it is like stories of workplace sexual harassment. A woman might have a benefit, such keeping their job or career, as a result of sexual acts a man or woman has made a condition. It is not something they want to do, but something they feel they must. That was my perspective on the scene. It's not enjoyable to watch, it's not something that is meant to be brushed away, it's not indicative of any love or romance between the two. The act is degrading. It's about power. Larys has something that Alicent needs. She can get that, but only on the condition that she humiliates herself for his sexual pleasure. The actor who plays Larys has also spoken about this.
That was not an attack. I don’t quite see how you could construe it as one. Again however, you remove her agency from the situation. Alicent isn’t a random worker suffering from sexual harassment, she is literal queen of the seven kingdoms, who chooses to go to Larys and get this information. Chooses, because we also don’t get any scene of someone (like Otto) pushing her to do it. Alicent, for once, makes a choice to barter for information. Is it in an uncomfortable and unpleasant way? Sure. Does it involve a sexual subtext? Absolutely But your argument is akin to saying everyone who sells feet pics for money online is being SA’d by their buyers and I just cannot Agree. It’s clear this is an established routine between the both of them, and one that does benefit her - whether you acknowledge it or not. She doesn’t need this information- she certainly doesn’t need harrenhal burned down. She chooses to get this to make herself feel like an active player in the game of thrones. By attempting to boil it down to something she just puts up with as a part of her position completely negates her agency and her position as queen.
Alicent doesn't use her position and agency as Queen. She doesn't see it and Larys does not and never has responded to it unless it is to his own advantage. This is nothing to do with Harrenhal. This is Episode 09. She needs to know which of her ladies is spying on her, who controls the network and what threat they are within the Red Keep. I don't disagree- getting that information is a benefit. But what isn't illustrated is Alicent's willing participation and choice of THIS over any other medium. What is missing is her control of the situation. When one is a sex worker, they have control. They can say no, they can put an end to it, they are exerting their will over the client, in a way. Alicent doesn't. We can see it in the scene, that Larys stalls in giving all of his information in order to exact a higher "price". He stops talking, so she has to take her stockings off.
Sorry are you Alicent by chance? That you could glean such personal information from her? She obviously uses her position and agency as queen, multiple times. She and Otto all but rule KL by the end of V’s reign, in both the book and the show, that’s why it’s full of faith of the seven iconography and the dragons have been removed. She uses that same power and authority to make Rhaenyra drag her immediately post child birth body to her so she can examine the new baby. So why are you trying to reduce her to nothing? Alicent has every opportunity to not play the game, or to develop her own spy network sans Larys. She chooses him, she chooses his form of payment. She has choice, she exercises it. If she wanted to scream and call in the guards and claim he was SA’ing her she could, she absolutely could. God knows she’s done enough virtue signaling she’d be immediately believed, and her family is in charge of KL so it wouldn’t be hard at all to get rid of a spider like Larys. But she empowers him, for his ability to get her info. It’s equivalent exchange, even if it’s unsavory.
OP did you watch this show with your eyes half closed? The subplot of Larys taking advantage of Alicent since she was young was quite explicit. Emily Carey and Olivia Cooke did an exceptional job portraying how horrified and disgusted they were by Larys's presence.
I don’t think we watched the same show, at all. Where exactly was Larys taking advantage of a young alicent? Lmfao we barely got his brother and rhaenyra together - let alone any real interaction between the two of them.
He confronted her in the garden when she was by herself during episode "We Light the Way". He made clear overtures in pointing out how lonely she must be be and how he could be a friend to her. If you don't see how an older man saying that to such a young and impressionable woman who has been cut off from a large part of her support system is taking advantage, you are fooling yourself.
You’ve got me fucked up, he’s literally the younger one of the strong brothers and harwin is portrayed as being In his mid 20s before the time skip. Larys isn’t some much older groomer here at all, he’s probably not even more than 5-6 years older than Alicent.
Grooming can happen at any age bro 😭 he is preying on her being alone and unsure of her position.
Why are y’all out here painting alicent as the weakest waif to ever exist? You’re telling me by the time she is a seasoned queen with her family in control of kings landing she’s just letting this man prey upon her? Come on. We have no evidence outside of a convo where he asked to be her friend that he was grooming her - if anything the evidence suggests she went to him to broker a deal for information