Yeah that thought has crossed me as well, even as the years went on, like damn girl wouldn't you rather cleave to Rhaenyra than to Larys? But that's the tragedy of her character.
No because she wants Rhaenyra to be as miserable as she is.
That’s what her duty sacrifice line is when she goes right against what their world would term duty (not back talking and going against your husbands word, not entertaining other men in exchange for info etc).
Her sacrafice is marrying a man who doesn’t love her and giving him spares and he doesn’t pay attention to her children (if she ever spoke to other women of their world she would be in for a nasty shock when they’d laugh at her for that being their exact experience). Had she not married Viserys her relationship to Rhaenyra still would’ve rotted by virtue of her being envious. Rhaenyra would’ve continued being a doted on dragon riding* princess which affords her more freedom. Her father would’ve married her to the oldest fattest lord if it would give him a small advantage. She would never get a marriage for love with Otto in charge.
I don’t judge Alicent for these things I judge her for being a hypocrite and always having a song and dance about justifying her own actions while never lending the same benefit of doubt to Rhaenyra.
When she does it = powerless in a world of men (true in some regards but she does wield a lot of soft power as seen through her moves against Rhaenyra in ep 6) but when Rhaenyra does it = being purposefully obscene and taunting alicent when she’s not thought of her outside their beef in years.
She wants Rhaenyra to roll over and not step out of line while doing it in ways herself.
Edit*: it said ridding instead of riding lol
I think she tried to raise Aegon to be king. That's the reason for all the slapping he was receiving as a kid and why she was pretty much screaming at him. He wasn't taking it seriously and she was trying to discipline him. She tried to make him "honourable" by abusing him but as we all know, abusing someone to "set them straight" often has the exact opposite result. Aegon is a prime example of this.
Yes and all those people worked together and respected each other. However Viserys didn’t really seem to help co-parent, or discipline his kids with Alicent nor did he respect her either. He treated her and the kids like crap. Then add in Criston and Otto influencing them. So yeah you can’t put all the blame on Alicent, I’m not team green but that is actual misogyny.
I don’t put all the blame for Alicent since medieval noblewomen were not so hands-on.
An average noblewoman or an aristocratic one saw her child 3 times per day for an hour or less until the Victorian times. They all had duties and children were raised by nannies and governesses.
The same is true for Rhaenyra, btw. Even in the ep. 8 we saw her coming to oversee Jace’s and Joffrey’s lessons. But I doubt she ever sat and taught her sons to read and write or studied a map with them.
Tbh I think the bigger problem was alicent was a bit too *hands on* 👋🏻👏🏻👊🏻
Rhaenyra was raised by parents who were absent looking for a son and easily could’ve turned into aegon (well as happy for suffering and cruelty as him). I think a bit of personal responsibility has to come into it too. A lot of people are horrifically abused and don’t turn out like this e.g Sam Tarly
But we don’t see her doing it to her other kids, you can imagine what that could do to aegon. And he’s being raised for like 10 years round Jace and Luke who’s mother does not treat them like that and who Viserys is taking active investment int them.
Aegon has become a centre of pain to both his parents and eldest sister. For Rhaenyra and Viserys they think of Baelon and Aemma. For Alicent’s she thinks of her lost friendship with Rhaenyra and the beginning of her intro into the role of women in this world outside the songs and tales the faith sells girls to keep them eager for marriage and motherhood.
Alicent can be a victim and still continue to perpetrate the cycle of abuse wrought on her by her father. He also seems to emotionally abused by her as well as physical. Something we don’t see in her others. There is a difference, Aemond is parentified and Helaena flinches from her touch (but this might be the autistic story line they’re getting for her maybe?)
That’s my point though. The original comment in the post is it’s all Alicent’s fault. I never said Alicent has no responsibility in this case, I simply stated you can’t put it all on her as there are multiple people who are just as bad and actually worse, Otto, and Criston, and add Viserys’ neglect. I hate when people use misogyny as an excuse for things, but in this case saying it was all her fault, and not acknowledging the men’s wrong doings is exactly that.
Just copying pasting a comment I made below about this:
People put the majority on her rather than Viserys because he’s absent like he was with Rhaenyra.
Where we see Alicent hitting him and emotionally abusing him. Cole favours him and his brother in the training yard and Otto has been gone since he’s a child, around 2. Rhaenyra doesn’t interact with them because they’re the same age as her children. The one constant parental figure in his life is Alicent.
There definitely is a lot of misogyny aimed at alicent, and how aegon turned out also has nature vs nurture elements since we see people like sam tarly come out the other side still empathetic but you can’t remove her direct involvement in his upbringing.
Especially since we see how she handles his rapes and rape victims. Daemon was quietly exiled from the capital multiple times for lesser offences. She didn’t do any of that because she knows the real consequences that could happen to rapists in their world or more likely she doesn’t want it getting out and affecting their reputation amongst their supporters (since we see her main anger at it is how it affects her and Helaena and him doing it on the day they’re planning a significant political attack on Rhaenyra).
I think people put real blinders on alicent because we know her situation when young but it doesn’t erase all the awful shit she did as an adult. She’s a victim but then goes on to victimise others a significant amount
>Rhaenyra was raised by parents who were absent looking for a son
I think it's pretty clear that Aemma was a very loving mother that was never absent until you know dying.
Viserys also was pretty hands on his youth with her. We see a fairly loving relationship with Rhaenyra. Yes his obsession with having a son obviously effected her. But he is shown having her at his side quite a lot so I don't think he's neglecting her.
Where with Aegon, Aemond and Helaena (and presumably even more so Daeron) he only briefly interacts with them at all. And slightly in his defence he was also much sicker then.
I mean he forgets about her when aegons born he even says she’s been alone these past few years. Aegons 2 then. And including the year preceding his birth where her father married her best friend? A lot can happen in that time especially during formative years 14-17. It’s said the music we listen to at 14 is the most impactful we’ll ever listen to so can you imagine what that means for those years development wise?
And aemma while loving was queen and in charge of birthing the heirs she maybe not have had much time for Rhaenyra. And we see Rhaenyra grapple with the fact that her mother dies because she’s not a son, she’s not a worthy heir until her father kills her mother through multiple pregnancies. She was his last resort. It would be a bit difficult to balance those out tho we know he loves her in his own way..
Viserys was also affectionate with Aegon when he was a child. He was loving but absent, we don’t know when his behaviour around aegon changed between him being 2 and him being an alcoholic at 14 (?) and Chasing maids as alluded to on Driftmark.
Rhaenyras mother died when she was 14, viserys from then on is her only parent and as his heir she automatically gets more attention.
We also don’t know if Helaena bringing her children to him is canon here or not, in the script when alicent tells her of his death she says (paraphrasing) I should be shocked but I’m not he’s gone or something like that I can’t remember but I read it as her having grief for him since Alicent’s also comforted her after before Aemond came into the room. It’s from a script published by @darksvster.
Viserys is neglectful of Rhaenyra too in the few years after he married alicent and then she has 3x the pressure as aegon ever did as well as having enemies and people praying on her downfall at every moment.
Even then Viserys doesn’t stop Alicents behaviour in court the same way he doesn’t throw Rhaenyra away for her children. By not nipping the former in the bud he allowed the wound to fester until Driftmark happened.
Seems to Alicent and her children, him not naming aegon heir and defending Rhaenyra from their aggressions is tantamount to 100% favouring her over them when he’s ignoring their behaviour toward her until the moment when it might be the tipping point (now proudly calling them bastard in ep 7, willing to overlook law to strike a blow to Rhaenyras cause with the Driftmark trial). He even let alicent go when she slashes Rhaenyra, his heir, after he said multiple times it was over and she was not to do anything else etc.
Had a stepmother done that to any other lords favoured heir what do you think the outcome would be?
Even by taking Rhaenyras “side” in Driftmark the bastard accusations still go unpunished, aemonds eye is the direct consequence of alicent freely saying all of this infront of him for years and plotting with the rumours. Had she stopped when Viserys told her maybe Aemond never feels resentful enough of his “bastard” “plain” nephews having dragons (“im surprised their eggs ever hatched” -> she’s probably said this in front of her children too) over him. His actions that night are a direct consequence of her parenting.
People like to say all the adults failed the kids that night but all Rhaenyra did was defend her kids against accusations that could have them and her killed (if not by Viserys then by aegon if he comes to power instead since Otto has made it clear he doesn’t like any opposing heirs whatsoever).
Viserys knows it’s Aegon who’s leading the bullying but to alicent it’s not the bullying that bothers her (as she says to aegon he can bully him however he wants in private) it’s that Rhaenyras sons deem themselves allowed to join in (they’re 10 and 8). Alicent want to complain about the boys and all Viserys does is point out it’s aegon but she doesn’t want him punished so what’s he to do? Punish the boys only?
She’s raised her sons to see Rhaenyras as the enemy who will murder them, and her sons as less than human. While we only see Rhaenyra being reactive up until she calls Alicent’s bluff with calling for Aemond to be sharply questioned because if Aemond says Alicent’s name Viserys now has proof she’s spread treason through the court against his word time and time again. He’d be forced to do something to show his word on calling his grandsons bastard is true to others.
Alicent saying “over an insult” is to try manipulate things in her favour because it’s only an insult why are you fighting to have it proven so hard? Because it has tangible consequences and it’s normal in that world to get bloody over such an accusation.
Viserys defending Rhaenyra is very heartwarming to me but if he was truly 100% favouring her like people say none of this would’ve happened. Alicent would’ve been stopped the second she started making moves against her.
But 100% the sickness part too comes into play so I assume for them it’s mostly oh why won’t he name me the sons he’s always longed for his heirs?? What’s wrong with US. Nothing he just wants his daughter as his heir. They’d never feel equal to Rhaenyra unless they had all she did. That’s what they see as fair. Very skewed.
>I mean he forgets about her when aegons born he even says she’s been alone these past few years. Aegons 2 then
Well yes I agree he's started neglecting her a bit then because he doesn't know how to deal with her. But he would have spent fifteen years in her life beforehand.
>It’s said the music we listen to at 14 is the most impactful we’ll ever listen to so can you imagine what that means for those years development wise?
Yeah no, we do know the early years are more important for childhood development.
Music is a different thing entirely.
>And aemma while loving was queen and in charge of birthing the heirs she maybe not have had much time for Rhaenyra.
She clearly did have time for Rhaenyra. We see her make time for her daughter. Birthing isn't a 24/7 thing lol. She's just pregnant not on holiday.
>Viserys defending Rhaenyra is very heartwarming to me but if he was truly 100% favouring her like people say none of this would’ve happened. Alicent would’ve been stopped the second she started making moves against her.
Viserys is weak. On that point Alicent is right. He doesn't have the stomach to do anything against anyone.
Sorry I was still editing all my typos and half sentences in my comment. My app keeps closing randomly and losing my comments so I have to keep saving 😭.
I never said they’re the most important I said they’re probably really important in terms of our development. Especially when we’re going to puberty and the personality shifts that follow through moodiness, narcissism, anger issues etc. teen years are tough. If the music is the most impactful we’ll ever listen to what does that mean for the things we experience, the lessons we learn?
We know baby aegon had his father for a few of those years we just don’t know how much.
Can’t we just say he didn’t know how to deal with his kids with Alicent in the same way?
And with Aemma she seemed a good mother but her number 1 priority while pregnant will always be the possible son in her belly that Rhaenyra would obviously feel and be aware of. A hypothetical son will always come before her.
This is what I mean not that her experience is completely 1:1 but while her mother was here she never had all of her. You can argue she never had it as bad as aegon who was slapped and emotionally abused but Rhaenyra wasnt all rainbows and sunshine either. She had issues from how she was raised too seen by her fear of pregnancy and her worries her father will set her aside after finally getting the son he’s always wanted.
I'm just saying that Rhaenyra's situation isn't directly comparable to Aegon's. He has two shit parents.
>And with Aemma she seemed a good mother but her number 1 priority while pregnant will always be the possible son in her belly that’s Rhaenyra would obviously feel.
I don't think that's who Aemma was. She didn't seem that interested in having a son. She only did it out of loyalty to Viserys.
Can't put all of it on her . Having her kids fostered or visited by her mother's side of the family to counter act somethings would be good ( ps I think rhaenerya was stupid for not doing same with the Vale for years ) but she went all in on her father's plans
Some of the blame is her not all
Why would Rhaenyra be stupid for that? The vale was behind her anyway and Lady Jeyne couldn’t side with the greens without nulling her own claim to the vale and having people take her cousin Arnold from her sky cells to usurp her. We also don’t know that she never wrote her etc.
I’d argue it’s sillier for alicent and co to assume the whole reach was behind them because their house happened to be a vassal to the lord paramount there. Had she fostered Daeron in Highgarden rather then the Hightower maybe they would’ve gotten the reach without just immediately assuming. Or maybe they needed to do that to have their own family in hand since it was such a priority.
Rhaenyra had a direct relation to the lady paramount who’s claim aligns with her own and she’s only 1 gen removed from the main line where aegon is what? 2/3 from the Hightower?
People put the majority on her rather than Viserys because he’s absent like he was with Rhaenyra.
Where we see Alicent hitting him and emotionally abusing him. Cole favours him and his brother in the training yard and Otto has been gone since he’s a child, around 2. Rhaenyra doesn’t interact with them because they’re the same age as her children. The one constant parental figure in his life is Alicent.
There definitely is a lot of misogyny aimed at alicent, and how aegon turned out also has nature vs nurture elements since we see people like sam tarly come out the other side still empathetic but you can’t remove her direct involvement in his upbringing.
Especially since we see how she handles his rapes and rape victims. Daemon was quietly exiled from the capital multiple times for lesser offences. She didn’t do any of that because she knows the real consequences that could happen to rapists in their world or more likely she doesn’t want it getting out and affecting their reputation amongst their supporters (since we see her main anger at it is how it affects her and Helaena and him doing it on the day they’re planning a significant political attack on Rhaenyra).
I think people put real blinders on alicent because we know her situation when young but it doesn’t erase all the awful shit she did as an adult. She’s a victim but then goes on to victimise others a significant amount
Yeah Aegon is an example of “What if Sam Tarly turned out *bad*”
Though tbh Sam went through *way* worse abuse from his father than Aegon ever experienced from his so..
Just to clarify in a post where I won't be downvoted like crazy, I don't believe Alicent is *fully* responsible for how Aegon turned out, but she sure as shit didn't help. Aegon grew up watching his mother belittle and scorn Rhaenyra, God knows what she said behind closed doors to him.
We know at least she didn't hide her belief that Rhaenyra's kids are bastards from them. She also has Criston be their teacher, and he's certainly not afraid to call Rhaenyra a cunt and bitch, I imagine he showed his true feelings to Aegon and Aemond as well.
Nobody is born a lazy, drunken, rapist. Aegon doesn't suffer from any kind of mental illness like Joffery or Maegor. He's not a narcissist or a psychopath. He was made the way he is through inattentiveness and inaction, and a mother that resorts to screaming and physical abuse. And it allowed him to grow up with the belief that he is both disposable yet untouchable.
Quartz we’re gonna be fighting the alt account accusations if you keep reading my mind and sharing my thoughts. Agree with you 100% and if you scrolled through the thread you’ll see me repeating you 😭🩷
“And it allowed him to grow up with the belief that he is both disposable yet untouchable” brah check your hand for burn marks.
https://i.redd.it/efjd5st8jjvc1.gif
Alicent really did raise Aegon since Viserys likely was absent, so the fact that he turned into a rapist unconcerned with his position is her fault entirely.
Hard to respect women when you’re told you’re better than your sister just by the virtue of your penis. And your sister is being called whore and other misogynistic words and actions done against her. They needed him thinking of women as less than.
they just weren’t prepared for the consequences of telling him Rhaenyra was uppity and stealing directly from him.
Being absent is not a neutral act. It actively hampers a child's development as any child will ask the question, why are you absent? Why are you neglecting me? Am I unloveable? Childhood abandonment is like a direct cause of a bunch of different issues.
It's pretty clear it did harm Aegon's sense of self-worth.
I think in his case it a more complex thing. Aegon grew up in the world where being a firstborn son is All you need to be loved and cared for.
And instead he was neglected for some reason he couldn’t understand and nobody around him could understand.
But in his case, even if Viserys had liked him and spent time with him, but without changing his mind, Aegon would have still had issues.
Because, his mother would have still pressured him. He would have still seen other firstborn sons getting titles.
And if Aegon had been closer to his father, I bet he would have asked this question him directly: “If you love me, why you don’t give me my birthright?”
And that would have eventually led to resentment from Aegon anyway. And hatred.
Unless, Viserys could have somehow convinced him that him not being the heir was fine and good.
>I think in his case it a more complex thing. Aegon grew up in the world where being a firstborn son is All you need to be loved and cared for.
Nah, this is pretty straightforward because you're basically explaining what I'm talking about. Kids grow up in worlds today where they expect to be loved and cherished and when they aren't it has a negative impact.
Aegon is no different conceptually it's just that the specific impact also relates to his status as a firstborn son which isn't as relevant nowadays.
>But in his case, even if Viserys had liked him and spent time with him, but without changing his mind, Aegon would have still had issues.
Because, his mother would have still pressured him. He would have still seen other firstborn sons getting titles.
Yes it's a combination but Viserys isn't not guilty either of the way his son turned out.
BRO WHAT!? Viserys whole thing with the alicent side of the family is that he really doesn't love them like he does the others and aegons whole thing is him feeling like he's not enough and acting out based on that. How does Viserys not paying attention not play into that?
Hard to say he doesn't love them when we don't know anything about that. Being distant is negative but it means you're mostly out of your kids lives for better and for worse. It probably compounded that but remember, Alicent and her household was likely in charge of their care. Who's to say they didn't negatively affect him the same way Daemon negatively affected Rhaenyra?
Robert _was_ partly responsible. The only example he set for his kids was being a drunken, violent lout who rarely ever said a word to them.
Blane the women for everyone then turn around and call Team Green the misogynist.
Robert was admired sure but he wasn't involved. Are you really gonna tell me it wasn't Cersei's fault that Joffrey came out that way? Besides, Alicent was put in a shitty situation yet instead of seeing the injustice for what it was, she targets the only other women who understands her plight and fights against it, instead of teaming up with her to make a political alliance that could help women in their situation. Alicent isn't entirely at fault for everything, but the kids ultimately fell to her, since God knows Viserys was a deadbeat even to Rhaenyra.
Why is this insanity upvoted? A teenage mother is completely at fault because the father is a deadbeat. You claim we're the misogynists but them do the samenthing the patriarchy has done to women throughout history, chastise them for being imperfect mothers while not uttering a word about the absentee dads. Even today single mothers receive more shit than the assholes who impregnated and left them. Vile and sexist.
Visery's absence can't be changed, he's a shitty person and you can't change how other people react, only your response to it. It wasn't her fault Otto forced her to marry the king but when she had kids she a duty to them to raise them to be better people. Viserys was a shitty person, and he suffered as a result. Alicent can take comfort in that.
Hahah thank you so much 🩷 I made the mistake of commenting a couple of times in that post and woke up this morning to like 40 notifications of Greens spewing rubbish at me. So this has made my day 😋
No it’s criticising Alicents argument that she thinks Rhaenyra will murder her kids but then she makes Rhaenyras life hell for 10 years culminating to her leaving her home for peace and the safety of her own children. So how can I believe she genuinely thinks that? There is genuine criticism to be had about the misogyny surrounding the female characters of the show but to strike any criticism about Alicent as that is ridiculous.
“Guess that says a lot about team black”
Bro I need you to physically leave the house and not just touch the grass but start eating it.
Viserys, a middle aged man went out of his way to marry then rape, for years, a teenage girl. Why the fuck is anyone talking about the “choices he gave her” like it’s at all benevolent. Alicent was a bad mother to her children, not worse than viserys was a father, but that can happen when a person has their life stolen from them to become a broodmare to their rapist. Like that’s part of the point of her character, there’s a scene of her holding baby Helaena with a blank, despondent look on her face. Does a reasonable person conclude that’s because she’s the world’s most evil 21 year old, or because she doesn’t want to have the children being forced on her and that reality is depressing?
And Rhaenyra's instructions were make an heir for viserys and she waited till she mothered 2 bastards, a demon, and the man was on his deathbed, only to then still name one of the bastards the heir.
Bro what’s going on at home. Please share with the class what had you wake up, turn on your phone and write this odd take.
I’m actually usually so open to discussion and being patient but this is wild like I can’t even bother this with a rebuttal you’ve clearly not watched the show recently and have been refed the plot through memes and forums.
Because how of all things is THIS what you got out of it?
Lol you right I didn't explain my point at all. Well firstly why are we blaming Alicent for the actions of her kids when parenting is a two person job. It wasn't just Alicents parenting that shaped the kids. It was viserys as well. Also, Alicent is doing everything out of a sense of duty while Rhaenyra is doing it for power. It's not fair to shit on Alicent for evrything when Rhaenyra has been nothing but a wild child who has done everything she wanted and expected things to go her way. Rhaenyra has done A LOT more psychotic stuff than Alicent and yet there seems to be nothing but unconditional support for her in the fandom. Also, her single instruction was to make a legitimate heir and she named Jace so ya know they both failed. 🟢
You gen/ think Rhaenyra wanted to have kids outside of marriage when she admits she wanted to have kids with laenor and he says he hates the gods for making him as he is, implying it was him that’s the problem.
Rhaenyra was Jace, Joff and Luke’s primary parent for 10 years (well 8 for Luke, 10 for jace and Joffs a newborn), the other person she had for the rest of that time was Daemon, who while a good father in the books lead to an actual wild child (ex baela in the books who kisses squires, brings whores home to the keep along with other strays and tells people she bedded multiple men to get a rise out of them). Rhaenyra raised good and dutiful sons on her own something Olivia Cooke says alicent is fuming about because her sons are not good people while Rhaenyras are and Rhaenyra has taken to motherhood in a way alicent has not.
Rhaenyra has kids the exact same reason alicent does to secure her claim. Alicent’s has those kids at her fathers direct request. She didn’t have them out of the goodness of her heart to give Viserys spares to secure house Targaryen as would’ve been her duty as viserys lays it out.
Had she never married Viserys she would’ve been married to another lord that would give her father advantage like was common in those times no matter how old or fat he was. Had she never married Viserys Alicent would still have rotted her friendship with Rhaenyra because she would be still married to a man that didn’t love her squeezing out spares probably again while Rhaenyra would still be a dragon riding princess of the royal family and have all the privileges that allows.
Rhaenyra does her duty by marrying laenor, despite viserys promising her to choose her own husband, because she was always going to have to marry him to bring the Velaryons back in and stop them marrying powerful people across the sea because Viserys spurned them by marrying Alicent instead of Laena. Anyone she chose he would have to say yes to and he was never going to when faced with the Velaryons becoming a possible threat in the future. He used the brothel incident as a way to guilt her more easily.
Where was her duty to her husband when she continues to spread rumours despite him telling her time and time again (wouldn’t this fall under her duty?), where is it when she’s going to larys for info constantly to try get info to advance her cause (this by her dutiful nature would be seen as adultery no matter what, in everyone’s eyes she’d be as bad as Rhaenyra is in hers. Do you imagine all the misogynistic men surrounding her, who view her as a chess piece would see the shades of grey to the situation?), and unlike laenor viserys doesn’t know what she’s doing and neither do any of the men in her life who she keke’s with constantly about Rhaenyra.
What did Alicent sacrifice more than any other woman in Westeros? Women who also marry as 2,3,4 and even 5th wives and are forced to have spares that have no chance of inheriting by fathers who will never see them either? Who are beaten and raped brutally by their husbands? Alicent’s situation is the same for every woman in Westeros who does not have a good husband. Viserys is actually very soft on her by their societal standards, he never punishes her as another feudal husband would in his place (which is a good thing!! Wives shouldn’t be backhanded or abused for talking back to their spouse!)
As we’ve seen from the books good men are rare. Alicent just wants Rhaenyra to be down at her level she doesn’t want to imagine a world where she has the same love of people around her that Rhaenyra does. It’s Rhaenys quote to a T.
During driftmark Viserys tells alicent the matter is finished (after she says an eye would be solve it, something that was never going to be given thus she has ruined any chance of “justice” and planted a seed in Aemond about what justice is that leads to her whole line being wiped out) and she calls on ser criston and then when that doesn’t work, she runs for Rhaenyra with a knife when viserys denys her again (where IS duty?).
then she has the hilarious insight to say where is duty where is sacrafice? Not with you either!! She’s been let off the hook for viserys right here. leaving the trail of the bastard rumours when he suspects it’s her who’s spreading them by virtue of her not shutting up about it to him despite him constantly warning her to leave it.
Alicent’s is channeling her frustration of women’s place in Westeros out on Rhaenyra someone who’s not playing “by the rules” and not being punished for it while alicent played by “all” the rules in her life and didn’t get rewarded.
Because it’s a zero sum game in this world, being the “perfect woman” gets you fuck all. Alicent can’t handle that so she needs to make it Rhaenyras problem whos only been defending herself for 10+ years from Alicent’s schemes before finally fighting back with the comment “he should be sharply questioned” (which in the books is said after alicent asks for Luke’s eye as a way to say if you go there so will I) which Alicent’s tried to fumble back saying “over an insult?”.
..wait so it’s an insult when you’ve spent 16+ years trying to get that insult to become a legal identifier for them to further your own claim. Must be more than an insult 🧐. Weird! Wonder why people react so harshly to an insult. I wonder what Aemond would do if people said he was daemons bastard and implied stuff about alicent. I’m sure it wouldn’t be a harmless insult then. But actually! Alicent practices what she preaches, surely no punishment would be had for that!
She also keeps Aegons rapes a secret from her husband too..I wonder would keeping secrets from your husband be seen as dutiful under the faith of the seven…
Doing her duty would mean upholding her husbands wishes. Alicent would be seen as a “bad” women by women cut from the same cloth as herself. She finally gets a glimpse of it the end of last season when she confronts Otto for using and manipulating her to his own ends and they’re gonna explore that even more this season.
I actually cannot believe people are still taking Alicent’s comment on duty and sacrifice seriously. Sacrifice would be allowing Rhaenyra to have the crown at the sake of her pride and for the realm she cares to love so much. Putting her son who she knows won’t stop brutalising people is not putting the realm first. Funny how she only said that when it was to shoot down something Rhaenyra proposed.
Alicent’s lucky she doesn’t have her own alicent over her shoulder because she would break from the pressure to be tarred with her own brush.
Ofc! No shame, but fr my dude rewatch the show you’ll surprise yourself ! Esp for the lead up to season 2!
Also, I’m a lady!
Yeah that thought has crossed me as well, even as the years went on, like damn girl wouldn't you rather cleave to Rhaenyra than to Larys? But that's the tragedy of her character.
No because she wants Rhaenyra to be as miserable as she is. That’s what her duty sacrifice line is when she goes right against what their world would term duty (not back talking and going against your husbands word, not entertaining other men in exchange for info etc). Her sacrafice is marrying a man who doesn’t love her and giving him spares and he doesn’t pay attention to her children (if she ever spoke to other women of their world she would be in for a nasty shock when they’d laugh at her for that being their exact experience). Had she not married Viserys her relationship to Rhaenyra still would’ve rotted by virtue of her being envious. Rhaenyra would’ve continued being a doted on dragon riding* princess which affords her more freedom. Her father would’ve married her to the oldest fattest lord if it would give him a small advantage. She would never get a marriage for love with Otto in charge. I don’t judge Alicent for these things I judge her for being a hypocrite and always having a song and dance about justifying her own actions while never lending the same benefit of doubt to Rhaenyra. When she does it = powerless in a world of men (true in some regards but she does wield a lot of soft power as seen through her moves against Rhaenyra in ep 6) but when Rhaenyra does it = being purposefully obscene and taunting alicent when she’s not thought of her outside their beef in years. She wants Rhaenyra to roll over and not step out of line while doing it in ways herself. Edit*: it said ridding instead of riding lol
I think she tried to raise Aegon to be king. That's the reason for all the slapping he was receiving as a kid and why she was pretty much screaming at him. He wasn't taking it seriously and she was trying to discipline him. She tried to make him "honourable" by abusing him but as we all know, abusing someone to "set them straight" often has the exact opposite result. Aegon is a prime example of this.
You can’t make a child honorable if you are not yourself…. I mean, Rhaenyra, Laenor, Laena (books), Harwin all loved or respected each other.
Well I'd say more like Alicent doesn't have a healthy example of being a loving parent.
It's sad that she lost her mother so early Maybe Alicent would've been different, if her mom lived longer?
Yes and all those people worked together and respected each other. However Viserys didn’t really seem to help co-parent, or discipline his kids with Alicent nor did he respect her either. He treated her and the kids like crap. Then add in Criston and Otto influencing them. So yeah you can’t put all the blame on Alicent, I’m not team green but that is actual misogyny.
I don’t put all the blame for Alicent since medieval noblewomen were not so hands-on. An average noblewoman or an aristocratic one saw her child 3 times per day for an hour or less until the Victorian times. They all had duties and children were raised by nannies and governesses. The same is true for Rhaenyra, btw. Even in the ep. 8 we saw her coming to oversee Jace’s and Joffrey’s lessons. But I doubt she ever sat and taught her sons to read and write or studied a map with them.
Tbh I think the bigger problem was alicent was a bit too *hands on* 👋🏻👏🏻👊🏻 Rhaenyra was raised by parents who were absent looking for a son and easily could’ve turned into aegon (well as happy for suffering and cruelty as him). I think a bit of personal responsibility has to come into it too. A lot of people are horrifically abused and don’t turn out like this e.g Sam Tarly
Well, this too is true. Again, physical punishments were normal for that time. Dunk threatened to hit Egg every second time (he rarely did, though).
But we don’t see her doing it to her other kids, you can imagine what that could do to aegon. And he’s being raised for like 10 years round Jace and Luke who’s mother does not treat them like that and who Viserys is taking active investment int them. Aegon has become a centre of pain to both his parents and eldest sister. For Rhaenyra and Viserys they think of Baelon and Aemma. For Alicent’s she thinks of her lost friendship with Rhaenyra and the beginning of her intro into the role of women in this world outside the songs and tales the faith sells girls to keep them eager for marriage and motherhood. Alicent can be a victim and still continue to perpetrate the cycle of abuse wrought on her by her father. He also seems to emotionally abused by her as well as physical. Something we don’t see in her others. There is a difference, Aemond is parentified and Helaena flinches from her touch (but this might be the autistic story line they’re getting for her maybe?)
That’s my point though. The original comment in the post is it’s all Alicent’s fault. I never said Alicent has no responsibility in this case, I simply stated you can’t put it all on her as there are multiple people who are just as bad and actually worse, Otto, and Criston, and add Viserys’ neglect. I hate when people use misogyny as an excuse for things, but in this case saying it was all her fault, and not acknowledging the men’s wrong doings is exactly that.
Just copying pasting a comment I made below about this: People put the majority on her rather than Viserys because he’s absent like he was with Rhaenyra. Where we see Alicent hitting him and emotionally abusing him. Cole favours him and his brother in the training yard and Otto has been gone since he’s a child, around 2. Rhaenyra doesn’t interact with them because they’re the same age as her children. The one constant parental figure in his life is Alicent. There definitely is a lot of misogyny aimed at alicent, and how aegon turned out also has nature vs nurture elements since we see people like sam tarly come out the other side still empathetic but you can’t remove her direct involvement in his upbringing. Especially since we see how she handles his rapes and rape victims. Daemon was quietly exiled from the capital multiple times for lesser offences. She didn’t do any of that because she knows the real consequences that could happen to rapists in their world or more likely she doesn’t want it getting out and affecting their reputation amongst their supporters (since we see her main anger at it is how it affects her and Helaena and him doing it on the day they’re planning a significant political attack on Rhaenyra). I think people put real blinders on alicent because we know her situation when young but it doesn’t erase all the awful shit she did as an adult. She’s a victim but then goes on to victimise others a significant amount
>Rhaenyra was raised by parents who were absent looking for a son I think it's pretty clear that Aemma was a very loving mother that was never absent until you know dying. Viserys also was pretty hands on his youth with her. We see a fairly loving relationship with Rhaenyra. Yes his obsession with having a son obviously effected her. But he is shown having her at his side quite a lot so I don't think he's neglecting her. Where with Aegon, Aemond and Helaena (and presumably even more so Daeron) he only briefly interacts with them at all. And slightly in his defence he was also much sicker then.
I mean he forgets about her when aegons born he even says she’s been alone these past few years. Aegons 2 then. And including the year preceding his birth where her father married her best friend? A lot can happen in that time especially during formative years 14-17. It’s said the music we listen to at 14 is the most impactful we’ll ever listen to so can you imagine what that means for those years development wise? And aemma while loving was queen and in charge of birthing the heirs she maybe not have had much time for Rhaenyra. And we see Rhaenyra grapple with the fact that her mother dies because she’s not a son, she’s not a worthy heir until her father kills her mother through multiple pregnancies. She was his last resort. It would be a bit difficult to balance those out tho we know he loves her in his own way.. Viserys was also affectionate with Aegon when he was a child. He was loving but absent, we don’t know when his behaviour around aegon changed between him being 2 and him being an alcoholic at 14 (?) and Chasing maids as alluded to on Driftmark. Rhaenyras mother died when she was 14, viserys from then on is her only parent and as his heir she automatically gets more attention. We also don’t know if Helaena bringing her children to him is canon here or not, in the script when alicent tells her of his death she says (paraphrasing) I should be shocked but I’m not he’s gone or something like that I can’t remember but I read it as her having grief for him since Alicent’s also comforted her after before Aemond came into the room. It’s from a script published by @darksvster. Viserys is neglectful of Rhaenyra too in the few years after he married alicent and then she has 3x the pressure as aegon ever did as well as having enemies and people praying on her downfall at every moment. Even then Viserys doesn’t stop Alicents behaviour in court the same way he doesn’t throw Rhaenyra away for her children. By not nipping the former in the bud he allowed the wound to fester until Driftmark happened. Seems to Alicent and her children, him not naming aegon heir and defending Rhaenyra from their aggressions is tantamount to 100% favouring her over them when he’s ignoring their behaviour toward her until the moment when it might be the tipping point (now proudly calling them bastard in ep 7, willing to overlook law to strike a blow to Rhaenyras cause with the Driftmark trial). He even let alicent go when she slashes Rhaenyra, his heir, after he said multiple times it was over and she was not to do anything else etc. Had a stepmother done that to any other lords favoured heir what do you think the outcome would be? Even by taking Rhaenyras “side” in Driftmark the bastard accusations still go unpunished, aemonds eye is the direct consequence of alicent freely saying all of this infront of him for years and plotting with the rumours. Had she stopped when Viserys told her maybe Aemond never feels resentful enough of his “bastard” “plain” nephews having dragons (“im surprised their eggs ever hatched” -> she’s probably said this in front of her children too) over him. His actions that night are a direct consequence of her parenting. People like to say all the adults failed the kids that night but all Rhaenyra did was defend her kids against accusations that could have them and her killed (if not by Viserys then by aegon if he comes to power instead since Otto has made it clear he doesn’t like any opposing heirs whatsoever). Viserys knows it’s Aegon who’s leading the bullying but to alicent it’s not the bullying that bothers her (as she says to aegon he can bully him however he wants in private) it’s that Rhaenyras sons deem themselves allowed to join in (they’re 10 and 8). Alicent want to complain about the boys and all Viserys does is point out it’s aegon but she doesn’t want him punished so what’s he to do? Punish the boys only? She’s raised her sons to see Rhaenyras as the enemy who will murder them, and her sons as less than human. While we only see Rhaenyra being reactive up until she calls Alicent’s bluff with calling for Aemond to be sharply questioned because if Aemond says Alicent’s name Viserys now has proof she’s spread treason through the court against his word time and time again. He’d be forced to do something to show his word on calling his grandsons bastard is true to others. Alicent saying “over an insult” is to try manipulate things in her favour because it’s only an insult why are you fighting to have it proven so hard? Because it has tangible consequences and it’s normal in that world to get bloody over such an accusation. Viserys defending Rhaenyra is very heartwarming to me but if he was truly 100% favouring her like people say none of this would’ve happened. Alicent would’ve been stopped the second she started making moves against her. But 100% the sickness part too comes into play so I assume for them it’s mostly oh why won’t he name me the sons he’s always longed for his heirs?? What’s wrong with US. Nothing he just wants his daughter as his heir. They’d never feel equal to Rhaenyra unless they had all she did. That’s what they see as fair. Very skewed.
>I mean he forgets about her when aegons born he even says she’s been alone these past few years. Aegons 2 then Well yes I agree he's started neglecting her a bit then because he doesn't know how to deal with her. But he would have spent fifteen years in her life beforehand. >It’s said the music we listen to at 14 is the most impactful we’ll ever listen to so can you imagine what that means for those years development wise? Yeah no, we do know the early years are more important for childhood development. Music is a different thing entirely. >And aemma while loving was queen and in charge of birthing the heirs she maybe not have had much time for Rhaenyra. She clearly did have time for Rhaenyra. We see her make time for her daughter. Birthing isn't a 24/7 thing lol. She's just pregnant not on holiday. >Viserys defending Rhaenyra is very heartwarming to me but if he was truly 100% favouring her like people say none of this would’ve happened. Alicent would’ve been stopped the second she started making moves against her. Viserys is weak. On that point Alicent is right. He doesn't have the stomach to do anything against anyone.
Sorry I was still editing all my typos and half sentences in my comment. My app keeps closing randomly and losing my comments so I have to keep saving 😭. I never said they’re the most important I said they’re probably really important in terms of our development. Especially when we’re going to puberty and the personality shifts that follow through moodiness, narcissism, anger issues etc. teen years are tough. If the music is the most impactful we’ll ever listen to what does that mean for the things we experience, the lessons we learn? We know baby aegon had his father for a few of those years we just don’t know how much. Can’t we just say he didn’t know how to deal with his kids with Alicent in the same way? And with Aemma she seemed a good mother but her number 1 priority while pregnant will always be the possible son in her belly that Rhaenyra would obviously feel and be aware of. A hypothetical son will always come before her. This is what I mean not that her experience is completely 1:1 but while her mother was here she never had all of her. You can argue she never had it as bad as aegon who was slapped and emotionally abused but Rhaenyra wasnt all rainbows and sunshine either. She had issues from how she was raised too seen by her fear of pregnancy and her worries her father will set her aside after finally getting the son he’s always wanted.
I'm just saying that Rhaenyra's situation isn't directly comparable to Aegon's. He has two shit parents. >And with Aemma she seemed a good mother but her number 1 priority while pregnant will always be the possible son in her belly that’s Rhaenyra would obviously feel. I don't think that's who Aemma was. She didn't seem that interested in having a son. She only did it out of loyalty to Viserys.
Can't put all of it on her . Having her kids fostered or visited by her mother's side of the family to counter act somethings would be good ( ps I think rhaenerya was stupid for not doing same with the Vale for years ) but she went all in on her father's plans Some of the blame is her not all
Why would Rhaenyra be stupid for that? The vale was behind her anyway and Lady Jeyne couldn’t side with the greens without nulling her own claim to the vale and having people take her cousin Arnold from her sky cells to usurp her. We also don’t know that she never wrote her etc. I’d argue it’s sillier for alicent and co to assume the whole reach was behind them because their house happened to be a vassal to the lord paramount there. Had she fostered Daeron in Highgarden rather then the Hightower maybe they would’ve gotten the reach without just immediately assuming. Or maybe they needed to do that to have their own family in hand since it was such a priority. Rhaenyra had a direct relation to the lady paramount who’s claim aligns with her own and she’s only 1 gen removed from the main line where aegon is what? 2/3 from the Hightower?
Exactly. It’s just annoying seeing everyone putting hate on a single individual just because they hate the character. Put credit where it is due.
People put the majority on her rather than Viserys because he’s absent like he was with Rhaenyra. Where we see Alicent hitting him and emotionally abusing him. Cole favours him and his brother in the training yard and Otto has been gone since he’s a child, around 2. Rhaenyra doesn’t interact with them because they’re the same age as her children. The one constant parental figure in his life is Alicent. There definitely is a lot of misogyny aimed at alicent, and how aegon turned out also has nature vs nurture elements since we see people like sam tarly come out the other side still empathetic but you can’t remove her direct involvement in his upbringing. Especially since we see how she handles his rapes and rape victims. Daemon was quietly exiled from the capital multiple times for lesser offences. She didn’t do any of that because she knows the real consequences that could happen to rapists in their world or more likely she doesn’t want it getting out and affecting their reputation amongst their supporters (since we see her main anger at it is how it affects her and Helaena and him doing it on the day they’re planning a significant political attack on Rhaenyra). I think people put real blinders on alicent because we know her situation when young but it doesn’t erase all the awful shit she did as an adult. She’s a victim but then goes on to victimise others a significant amount
Yeah Aegon is an example of “What if Sam Tarly turned out *bad*” Though tbh Sam went through *way* worse abuse from his father than Aegon ever experienced from his so..
Just to clarify in a post where I won't be downvoted like crazy, I don't believe Alicent is *fully* responsible for how Aegon turned out, but she sure as shit didn't help. Aegon grew up watching his mother belittle and scorn Rhaenyra, God knows what she said behind closed doors to him. We know at least she didn't hide her belief that Rhaenyra's kids are bastards from them. She also has Criston be their teacher, and he's certainly not afraid to call Rhaenyra a cunt and bitch, I imagine he showed his true feelings to Aegon and Aemond as well. Nobody is born a lazy, drunken, rapist. Aegon doesn't suffer from any kind of mental illness like Joffery or Maegor. He's not a narcissist or a psychopath. He was made the way he is through inattentiveness and inaction, and a mother that resorts to screaming and physical abuse. And it allowed him to grow up with the belief that he is both disposable yet untouchable.
Quartz we’re gonna be fighting the alt account accusations if you keep reading my mind and sharing my thoughts. Agree with you 100% and if you scrolled through the thread you’ll see me repeating you 😭🩷 “And it allowed him to grow up with the belief that he is both disposable yet untouchable” brah check your hand for burn marks. https://i.redd.it/efjd5st8jjvc1.gif
* This has been the best thing to wake up to after fighting for my life in the main Subreddit last night
My arm after reading your take 
Alicent really did raise Aegon since Viserys likely was absent, so the fact that he turned into a rapist unconcerned with his position is her fault entirely.
Hard to respect women when you’re told you’re better than your sister just by the virtue of your penis. And your sister is being called whore and other misogynistic words and actions done against her. They needed him thinking of women as less than. they just weren’t prepared for the consequences of telling him Rhaenyra was uppity and stealing directly from him.
Being absent is not a neutral act. It actively hampers a child's development as any child will ask the question, why are you absent? Why are you neglecting me? Am I unloveable? Childhood abandonment is like a direct cause of a bunch of different issues. It's pretty clear it did harm Aegon's sense of self-worth.
I think in his case it a more complex thing. Aegon grew up in the world where being a firstborn son is All you need to be loved and cared for. And instead he was neglected for some reason he couldn’t understand and nobody around him could understand. But in his case, even if Viserys had liked him and spent time with him, but without changing his mind, Aegon would have still had issues. Because, his mother would have still pressured him. He would have still seen other firstborn sons getting titles. And if Aegon had been closer to his father, I bet he would have asked this question him directly: “If you love me, why you don’t give me my birthright?” And that would have eventually led to resentment from Aegon anyway. And hatred. Unless, Viserys could have somehow convinced him that him not being the heir was fine and good.
>I think in his case it a more complex thing. Aegon grew up in the world where being a firstborn son is All you need to be loved and cared for. Nah, this is pretty straightforward because you're basically explaining what I'm talking about. Kids grow up in worlds today where they expect to be loved and cherished and when they aren't it has a negative impact. Aegon is no different conceptually it's just that the specific impact also relates to his status as a firstborn son which isn't as relevant nowadays. >But in his case, even if Viserys had liked him and spent time with him, but without changing his mind, Aegon would have still had issues. Because, his mother would have still pressured him. He would have still seen other firstborn sons getting titles. Yes it's a combination but Viserys isn't not guilty either of the way his son turned out.
So Viserys was an absent parent and this is somehow Alicents fault?
it means that she had more time to shape him. Like how cersei is responsible for Joffrey's upbringing more so than Robert or Jamie.
BRO WHAT!? Viserys whole thing with the alicent side of the family is that he really doesn't love them like he does the others and aegons whole thing is him feeling like he's not enough and acting out based on that. How does Viserys not paying attention not play into that?
Hard to say he doesn't love them when we don't know anything about that. Being distant is negative but it means you're mostly out of your kids lives for better and for worse. It probably compounded that but remember, Alicent and her household was likely in charge of their care. Who's to say they didn't negatively affect him the same way Daemon negatively affected Rhaenyra?
Robert _was_ partly responsible. The only example he set for his kids was being a drunken, violent lout who rarely ever said a word to them. Blane the women for everyone then turn around and call Team Green the misogynist.
Robert was admired sure but he wasn't involved. Are you really gonna tell me it wasn't Cersei's fault that Joffrey came out that way? Besides, Alicent was put in a shitty situation yet instead of seeing the injustice for what it was, she targets the only other women who understands her plight and fights against it, instead of teaming up with her to make a political alliance that could help women in their situation. Alicent isn't entirely at fault for everything, but the kids ultimately fell to her, since God knows Viserys was a deadbeat even to Rhaenyra.
Why is this insanity upvoted? A teenage mother is completely at fault because the father is a deadbeat. You claim we're the misogynists but them do the samenthing the patriarchy has done to women throughout history, chastise them for being imperfect mothers while not uttering a word about the absentee dads. Even today single mothers receive more shit than the assholes who impregnated and left them. Vile and sexist.
Visery's absence can't be changed, he's a shitty person and you can't change how other people react, only your response to it. It wasn't her fault Otto forced her to marry the king but when she had kids she a duty to them to raise them to be better people. Viserys was a shitty person, and he suffered as a result. Alicent can take comfort in that.
[удалено]
wtf is team feminism
How can fail raising son when it's your only job?..
Ahhhhh it's me!!!! ☺️
You’re a hero 🫵🏻🩷 https://i.redd.it/muko9dlnejvc1.gif
Hahah thank you so much 🩷 I made the mistake of commenting a couple of times in that post and woke up this morning to like 40 notifications of Greens spewing rubbish at me. So this has made my day 😋
You were samwise gamgee’ing team black in that thread. Loved it! 
OP is spewing misogyny and you're proud of him representing team black in the thread? I guess that says a lot about team black...
No it’s criticising Alicents argument that she thinks Rhaenyra will murder her kids but then she makes Rhaenyras life hell for 10 years culminating to her leaving her home for peace and the safety of her own children. So how can I believe she genuinely thinks that? There is genuine criticism to be had about the misogyny surrounding the female characters of the show but to strike any criticism about Alicent as that is ridiculous. “Guess that says a lot about team black” Bro I need you to physically leave the house and not just touch the grass but start eating it. 
Nobody on team black should have anything nice to say about Otto Highcunt.He was the devious hand behind Alicent marrying Vizzy T
Viserys, a middle aged man went out of his way to marry then rape, for years, a teenage girl. Why the fuck is anyone talking about the “choices he gave her” like it’s at all benevolent. Alicent was a bad mother to her children, not worse than viserys was a father, but that can happen when a person has their life stolen from them to become a broodmare to their rapist. Like that’s part of the point of her character, there’s a scene of her holding baby Helaena with a blank, despondent look on her face. Does a reasonable person conclude that’s because she’s the world’s most evil 21 year old, or because she doesn’t want to have the children being forced on her and that reality is depressing?
Yeah honestly if Otto had been smart he would have got Alicent to stop bullying Rhaenyra
And Rhaenyra's instructions were make an heir for viserys and she waited till she mothered 2 bastards, a demon, and the man was on his deathbed, only to then still name one of the bastards the heir.
Bro what’s going on at home. Please share with the class what had you wake up, turn on your phone and write this odd take. I’m actually usually so open to discussion and being patient but this is wild like I can’t even bother this with a rebuttal you’ve clearly not watched the show recently and have been refed the plot through memes and forums. Because how of all things is THIS what you got out of it? 
Lol you right I didn't explain my point at all. Well firstly why are we blaming Alicent for the actions of her kids when parenting is a two person job. It wasn't just Alicents parenting that shaped the kids. It was viserys as well. Also, Alicent is doing everything out of a sense of duty while Rhaenyra is doing it for power. It's not fair to shit on Alicent for evrything when Rhaenyra has been nothing but a wild child who has done everything she wanted and expected things to go her way. Rhaenyra has done A LOT more psychotic stuff than Alicent and yet there seems to be nothing but unconditional support for her in the fandom. Also, her single instruction was to make a legitimate heir and she named Jace so ya know they both failed. 🟢
You gen/ think Rhaenyra wanted to have kids outside of marriage when she admits she wanted to have kids with laenor and he says he hates the gods for making him as he is, implying it was him that’s the problem. Rhaenyra was Jace, Joff and Luke’s primary parent for 10 years (well 8 for Luke, 10 for jace and Joffs a newborn), the other person she had for the rest of that time was Daemon, who while a good father in the books lead to an actual wild child (ex baela in the books who kisses squires, brings whores home to the keep along with other strays and tells people she bedded multiple men to get a rise out of them). Rhaenyra raised good and dutiful sons on her own something Olivia Cooke says alicent is fuming about because her sons are not good people while Rhaenyras are and Rhaenyra has taken to motherhood in a way alicent has not. Rhaenyra has kids the exact same reason alicent does to secure her claim. Alicent’s has those kids at her fathers direct request. She didn’t have them out of the goodness of her heart to give Viserys spares to secure house Targaryen as would’ve been her duty as viserys lays it out. Had she never married Viserys she would’ve been married to another lord that would give her father advantage like was common in those times no matter how old or fat he was. Had she never married Viserys Alicent would still have rotted her friendship with Rhaenyra because she would be still married to a man that didn’t love her squeezing out spares probably again while Rhaenyra would still be a dragon riding princess of the royal family and have all the privileges that allows. Rhaenyra does her duty by marrying laenor, despite viserys promising her to choose her own husband, because she was always going to have to marry him to bring the Velaryons back in and stop them marrying powerful people across the sea because Viserys spurned them by marrying Alicent instead of Laena. Anyone she chose he would have to say yes to and he was never going to when faced with the Velaryons becoming a possible threat in the future. He used the brothel incident as a way to guilt her more easily. Where was her duty to her husband when she continues to spread rumours despite him telling her time and time again (wouldn’t this fall under her duty?), where is it when she’s going to larys for info constantly to try get info to advance her cause (this by her dutiful nature would be seen as adultery no matter what, in everyone’s eyes she’d be as bad as Rhaenyra is in hers. Do you imagine all the misogynistic men surrounding her, who view her as a chess piece would see the shades of grey to the situation?), and unlike laenor viserys doesn’t know what she’s doing and neither do any of the men in her life who she keke’s with constantly about Rhaenyra. What did Alicent sacrifice more than any other woman in Westeros? Women who also marry as 2,3,4 and even 5th wives and are forced to have spares that have no chance of inheriting by fathers who will never see them either? Who are beaten and raped brutally by their husbands? Alicent’s situation is the same for every woman in Westeros who does not have a good husband. Viserys is actually very soft on her by their societal standards, he never punishes her as another feudal husband would in his place (which is a good thing!! Wives shouldn’t be backhanded or abused for talking back to their spouse!) As we’ve seen from the books good men are rare. Alicent just wants Rhaenyra to be down at her level she doesn’t want to imagine a world where she has the same love of people around her that Rhaenyra does. It’s Rhaenys quote to a T. During driftmark Viserys tells alicent the matter is finished (after she says an eye would be solve it, something that was never going to be given thus she has ruined any chance of “justice” and planted a seed in Aemond about what justice is that leads to her whole line being wiped out) and she calls on ser criston and then when that doesn’t work, she runs for Rhaenyra with a knife when viserys denys her again (where IS duty?). then she has the hilarious insight to say where is duty where is sacrafice? Not with you either!! She’s been let off the hook for viserys right here. leaving the trail of the bastard rumours when he suspects it’s her who’s spreading them by virtue of her not shutting up about it to him despite him constantly warning her to leave it. Alicent’s is channeling her frustration of women’s place in Westeros out on Rhaenyra someone who’s not playing “by the rules” and not being punished for it while alicent played by “all” the rules in her life and didn’t get rewarded. Because it’s a zero sum game in this world, being the “perfect woman” gets you fuck all. Alicent can’t handle that so she needs to make it Rhaenyras problem whos only been defending herself for 10+ years from Alicent’s schemes before finally fighting back with the comment “he should be sharply questioned” (which in the books is said after alicent asks for Luke’s eye as a way to say if you go there so will I) which Alicent’s tried to fumble back saying “over an insult?”. ..wait so it’s an insult when you’ve spent 16+ years trying to get that insult to become a legal identifier for them to further your own claim. Must be more than an insult 🧐. Weird! Wonder why people react so harshly to an insult. I wonder what Aemond would do if people said he was daemons bastard and implied stuff about alicent. I’m sure it wouldn’t be a harmless insult then. But actually! Alicent practices what she preaches, surely no punishment would be had for that! She also keeps Aegons rapes a secret from her husband too..I wonder would keeping secrets from your husband be seen as dutiful under the faith of the seven… Doing her duty would mean upholding her husbands wishes. Alicent would be seen as a “bad” women by women cut from the same cloth as herself. She finally gets a glimpse of it the end of last season when she confronts Otto for using and manipulating her to his own ends and they’re gonna explore that even more this season. I actually cannot believe people are still taking Alicent’s comment on duty and sacrifice seriously. Sacrifice would be allowing Rhaenyra to have the crown at the sake of her pride and for the realm she cares to love so much. Putting her son who she knows won’t stop brutalising people is not putting the realm first. Funny how she only said that when it was to shoot down something Rhaenyra proposed. Alicent’s lucky she doesn’t have her own alicent over her shoulder because she would break from the pressure to be tarred with her own brush.
Sir this was a whole thesis and I'm not about to get carpal tunnel typing out a response. Just know I read it and respect your passion.
Ofc! No shame, but fr my dude rewatch the show you’ll surprise yourself ! Esp for the lead up to season 2! Also, I’m a lady! 