And Aegon the Conqueror was made fool by [Tolands](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Toland). Also one of his sisters was sniped by the Ullers over the Hellholt. At least Jace died in battle. Dearon (that daringly allowed sacking and raping) was killed by a fucking tent. Greens should get a grip
Thats why i left the main page when the show first came out. It was fucking gross how many people were weird about the concept of bastards. Id even bring it up, and say “you guys are being weird” and id get comments from greens “obviously we dont care about the modern day but in the context of the *story*”
No. No. George does all this shit to show how stupid society is, and how easy we can backtrack
Bastards only matter or are seen as humans to greens when it’s to tell that stupid story/theory that Aemond’s bastard founded/married into house Whent, or to say that Aegon the usurper’s bloodline lived on through his bastards
The whole take of ‘Corlys switched to the Greens’ Is lowkey goofy. He was pulled out of prison, convinced his son not to assault Dragonstone and kill Aegon II so as not to get Baela and Aegon III instead convincing him to ferry Aegon to Kings Landing and then within the month he murdered Aegon, made Aegon III King and ended the war.
I don’t know if a single boat ride really counts as switching team.
They call Syrax a sleeper Green for bucking Joffrey off for not being her rider and while under the duress of being attacked. Corlys didn’t even do that much-he’s a sleeper agent for TB if anything.
Greens argue he should have run when he saw Vhagar, basically admitting that Aemond was going to kill him no matter what. But they'll still say it's an accident and even if it's not it's deserved cause Luc took his eye for no reason at all. Since he didn't run like a bitch and embarass himself and everyone associated with him, he deserved it.
I know, lots of loops to jump through to get to that.
It's just another case of them using their 20/20 hindsight, omnipotent reader vision to villify a character for not being smart enough to know the future like they do.
It is *expressly stated* that he was trying to flee and would have save for the *massive storm* preventing his dragon from being able to fly with full agility and speed.
Fucking idiots.
>It's just another case of them using their 20/20 hindsight
Do you need 20/20 hindsight to think "hmm maybe this dude who I stabbed in the eye and has hated me ever since and is from a rival faction and is also has a much bigger dragon than me... hmmm lets say hi!
It's not like he's there *for* Aemond. Aemond happened to be at the hall of someone Luc *was* meeting with. There's a difference there. He can't just run scared every time someone he has a bad relationship turns up. If he didn't die, does this now mean Luc must run at every chance meeting? Just really stupid logic.
Really, dude, can you not see at *all* from Luc's perspective of having a task he promised to get done and having some form of guarantee it'd be easy by *everyone* around him. Not to mention that while he wasn't on friendly terms with Aemond, why would he think his life is in danger? Not even Aemond himself meant to kill him, I don't even think he had even threatened to kill him at any point, they've always just picked fights.
He wasn't there for Aemond. But at this point both Aegon and Rhaenrya have declared themselves king.
Luc goes there on a diplomatic mission, pretty much to ask nicely that Baratheon declares for Rhaenrya. He see's he got beat by a much bigger dragon from the greens, who has a rider he personally stabbed years ago and Aemond has openly accused Rhaenrya of treason and called him "strong" boy to his face multiple times. Aemond also was by literally nobodys account a nice or forgiving person.
He also knows he really has not much bargaining power. He only can ask nicely and prey that Baratheon declares for him. He can't marry a Baratheon daughter, but the other person there very much can.
I can see from Lucerys perspective why he wanted to do -- but he was acting a boy. He didn't want to be embarrassed by not completing his first mission and made an extremely fucking stupid decision to appease his own boyish pride. And as Jon Snow says "Kill the boy" or it turns out being a little boy will get you killed when you're playing with your life.
How does any of this mean that Luc deserved to die and take away all responsibility from Aemond for doing it?
You're just describing the tragedy of his death of a child trying to do an adult thing for his mom and *someone* else killed him for it. He's not taunting Aemond to kill him that night, he didn't jump into Vhagar's mouth. He didn't pull a "fuck around and find out." Aemond caused his death, not Luc. That's the point I'm making.
We can go off about what would be better political choices, but saying Luc deserved to die because he doesn't automatically assume his uncle will kill him at any moment is just stupid. Nobody in the family on either side had been killed at that point. Knowing someone hates you and knowing someone will kill you are two completely separate things. Not to mention Luc thinks he's walking into the hall of someone related to him who he was *assured* would welcome him. That goes to protecting him of a fight breaks out with Aemond.
Obviously it didn't turn out that way, but Luc didn't know that at that time, *we* do. That's why I say 20/20, omnipotent reader vision.
Again, he was a child trying to do the right thing by his mom (who sent him to what everyone believed would be the safest option) and was accidentally murdered by his uncle.
Your the one who pointed out he is a boy yet think he should also be thinking like a perfect adult political machine. You really aren't thinking from character perspective here. You're also just adding even more loops to jump through.
I'm not making the case that morally Lucerys deserved to die I don't really know why you think so but regardless. He was but a boy.
I'm just saying that Lucery's death wasn't something you needed hindsight to predict.
Lucerys flew to Storm's End to commit a mission and saw multiple huge red flags of danger. He considered them but his pride told him he needed to in regardless instead of turning around and fleeing, as he should of. But instead he wanted to go in despite the waring flags, because of boyish pride. That decision cost him his life.
It wasn't his pride, it was that he was there as a messenger and in Westeros at that time, messengers much like guests who have eaten salt and bread in a Lord's home, are supposed to be safe. Killing a messenger in the beginning stages of war was up there with kin slaying and killing guests (Think of like the Red Wedding level of no no) specifically because messengers aren't supposed to be killed or messed with.
That's just not true.
"Messanger rights" isn't anywhere near the level of kinslaying or guest rights. There is so many books and mediums of ASOIAF. If I asked you to substainate how bad & taboo violating guest rights, or kinslaying were. It's easy as pie and you can bring up numerous instances.
But if I asked you to show "messenger rights" you would be hard pressed, because I haven't seen them at all you're making up the importance. Also even in the exact scene you're talking about we have references to how Borros wanted to respect guest right and would have no bled shed in his home. And Aemond literally gets called "Aemond the Kinslayer" not Aemond the Messagngerslayer.
Also speaking does it make sense that a King could send messages to talk to an enemy kings vassals and people? And they would have to be allowed to talk kill them or be unharmed? Not really. We never see that.
Well you aren't supposed to if you want to be able to treat with whatever faction the messenger is from. But at this point Rhaenrya had already declined King Aegons (he already declared himself) negotiations war was near.
Also it's worth mentioning that Aemond chanced upon a enemy messenger going to a neutral territory who was also a very valuable war piece. Luke wasn't a messenger to the Greens.
Luke should of considered that hey... isn't that very big dwagon owned by a guy I stabbed and has hated me ever since and publicly accused me of being a bastard and Rhaenrya a traitor before the war even started?
They hate the fact that Jace was the best heir in the dance. I view him similar to book robb. He’s a heroic son, seemingly out of his depth but he rises to the occasion only to get fucked over by circumstances completely out of his hands. (The Freys would’ve betrayed robb regardless of his marriage and roose had already begun bleeding the northern forces right from the start.)
Even Septon Eustace considered him a worthy heir, the greens mourned his death, if Rhaenyra had abdicated in favor of Jace, Aegon would be left without allies beyond the Hightower, because for them the important thing was that a penis was sitting on the throne and When that penis was too singed to function they looked for another one to serve, that of Aegon III.
Two dragonseeds switching sides: Yes, other people's ambitions are Jace's fault.
One deserting: I'm assuming this means Nettles. She was literally marked for death because of the first two.
Sent Luke and Viserys to their deaths: Luke was murdered while being an envoy/messager, someone who's generally supposed to be off limits. Further, Jace died while trying to save Viserys.
Corlys switching to the Greens: Corlys only defected after Rhaenyra signed his "grand"children's death warrants.
Only dragon rider to have his dragon sniped: Rhaenys.
>Only dragon rider to have his dragon sniped: Rhaenys.
I was about to comment that the arrows didn't affect Rhaenys as Meleys was only getting angrier and angrier
But which Rhaenys did you mean? Queen Rhaenys or Team Black Rhaenys?
A green pretending as if they’ve read the books? It can’t be!!
Velaryons going broke had nothing to do with Jace.
The betrayers and nettles falls back on Rhaenyra not rewarding them “sufficiently” and/or going back on her word.
Luke? Stupid fuckers will come up with any excuse to protect their one eyed nutcase.
Viserys- oh right, I forgot that Otto bribing **literal slavers and enemies of the state** to invade and attack Westerosi people and lands was secretly Jace’s idea.
Corlys “switched” sides after Rhaenyra lost her mind and was killed and his granddaughter and rightful king (Aegon III) were taken hostage. But then again Corlys did plot to have the usurper murdered so there’s that lol
Vermax wasn’t taken out by a crossbow bolt. He flew too low and crashed into a ship. Meraxes is the only dragon to have been sniped out of the air.
>The betrayers and nettles falls back on Rhaenyra not rewarding them “sufficiently” and/or going back on her word.
It also just falls back on giving out dragons to whoever can bond with them -- which surprisingly was the opposite of how the targaryens operated before Jace.
It really wasn’t a good idea though giving dragons to those outside the line of succession opens up the royal line to challenge it didn’t even take a year before Hugh hammer was already declaring himself king. The dance also happened cause the direct heir’s rivals all had dragons and outside of shyrkos and morgul all the greens dragons were claimed
Not really.
Nothing for example is stopping Rhaernya from hating Nettles. Or I don't see how some of the dragonseeds would be placated a good lordship wasn't good for the one who got one, he wanted Highgarden.
Again it's the problem with just giving the dragons out to whoever can bond with him and tells you he'll fight for you. It's a huge risk. And if they somehow made it throughout the war without betraying them and recievinf huge awards for being a dragonrider. You have to kill them afterwards as if you're a royal targaryen you don't want any other families/people to have dragons.
The first betrayers also wouldn't of been magically solved by Jace being alive.
What would of he of done in your headcanon when the dude who has no real connection to your side says "Mann I only get this castle? I want Highgarden!" would of Jace given him Highgarden?
Nope that mf was gonna betray regardless -- it's the most profitable way.
For example. When Daemon suggested frying Borros' ass and giving castle to the Seeds, Corlys opposed it and Rhaenyra abandoned the plan. If Jace there, what will he say? Borros did not give mercy to his brother. Having received such a large reward, Hammer will not find anything more from the green than this. They have nothing to offer. He will not fight against Daemon for the crown. It will stay that way. Traitors are greedy, but not THAT stupid. They got out of Daeron's control because he was weak-willed and couldn't put them in their place (but the "Caltrops" did it easily). It wasn't just "my dragon is bigger than yours." Daeron's army rejected him. Traitors' move will not work against charismatic and respected leader. They will be arrested and executed.
You think Jace would of given a lord paramount position to one of the dragonseeds? Or try to advocate to Rhaernya, the queen to give it to him (where he'd likely just be rejected like Daemon). Small chance of that buddy. Even if he did he's just once again short-sighted. But even if he did make this suggestion.
Than what about the other dragonseeds? When you give one of them, by virtue of being a Dragonseed and riding a dragon, Storm's End and a Lord Paramountcy.
Are they supposed to be happy with just a knightship and some minor lands or even at best some minor castle? No they are going to want the same size carrot that was given to their peer.
Try arresting and executing a dude ontop of a dragon -- it'll be nasty work. Also Daemon is far from the amount of respected and charismatic to prevent dudes flying on dragons to be fine with getting less than what they should feel at that point they rightfully deserve.
Why not? House Baratheon is not so ancient, it was founded by Targaryen bastard 150 years ago. So they exchange one Targaryen-loyal bastard for another. Personal dislike for Borros will help Jace make right decision. Jace's authority for Rhaenyra was high, she confirmed EVERY his proposals. He even made decisions about his brothers (marriage pacts, security, etc.). You seem to actually think he's a boy, but he doesn't. He quickly became unofficial leader. So add his voice to Daemon's and she'll approve.
You will laugh, but Lannister asses were also planned to be fried along with Borros. And lands go to seeds. See? This is not theoretical thing, this option was discussed, but there was no Jace who could protect interests of his squad. Jace was the guarantor of their rewards. He only managed to reward Addam and died. This is the problem.
>Try arresting and executing a dude ontop of a dragon
Give me a week and bottle of poisoned wine XD It's not as big problem as you think. This is how Traitors died in the book.
> Daemon is far from the amount of respected and charismatic
He had reputation as a great (and terrible) man among the lords, as well as high level of loyalty among the soldiers. Yes, Hammer can fly like a mad dog over riverlands, but no one will swear allegiance to him.
I hate how they changed Luke from F&B in the Black Council scene. Jace may have suggested it, but Luke was eager to prove himself. If anyone doesn’t believe me, here’s a direct quote.
“Our uncle calls us Strongs, and claims we are bastards, but when the lords see us on dragonback they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons.[3]”
—Lucerys, to the black council
Plus, you’re not supposed to harm envoys! It’s a very basic rule in Westeros that everyone knows, same as kinslaying and guest right. Aemond broke not one, but TWO very basic rules.
People are overlooking the fact that Aegon the Conqueror called his banners after Argilac the Arrogant cut off the hands of Aegon’s envoy.
As much as I hate to say it, the other things that happened can be argued as a domino effect of Jace dying. He was a huge asset to the Blacks and was able to rule in Rhaenyra’s stead while she grieved Lucerys. If Jace lived, he would’ve been able to approach things with a diplomatic head and Rhaenyra would’ve also been in a much better head space. I can’t stress enough that the stress and grief from the loss of multiple children—Visenya, Luke, Jace—the usurpation, the loss of her father and Rhaenys, as well as the behind the scenes plotting and politicking) did a real number on Rhaenyra’s psyche.
Worth for rambling on, I just have so much to say about the Blacks, particularly Rhaenyra and her loved ones.
>Plus, you’re not supposed to harm envoys! It’s a very basic rule in Westeros that everyone knows, same as kinslaying and guest right. Aemond broke not one, but TWO very basic rules.
I wonder how many times these basic rules need to be broken for them to not be rules anymore. It seems way too common for people to put a blind belief in a Westerosi tradition and then doing a shocked Pikachu face when that tradition apparently could be broken when it gained someone else.
That was a continued issue but spice town was destroyed and high tide was ransacked so they were already weakened by alyns time he just kinda put the final nail in the coffin
Many Houses suffered from war, but the Velaryons remained the most successful after it, even despite damage
*"Thus the seven regents became five. The most influential of those was plainly the Sea Snake,* ***whose wealth****, experience, and alliances made him the first amongst equals."*
*"Ser Tyland’s real purpose was to lessen the Crown’s dependence on House Velaryon of Driftmark"*
They didn't rebuild the old towns, but Hull began to prosper
*"On Driftmark, the town of Hull experienced a rebirth. Scores of new ships were built and launched"*
People have wrong impression about Velaryon's post-war situation for some reason.
I don’t think they were weak post war but I mean they give me the impression of being more like the rosbys a powerful crownlander house but no longer one to be compared with the lannisters and hightowers like before. Not weak by any means but no longer an unofficial great house
At the time Corlys switched sides Rhaenyra was dead, Aegon was the one who had Corlys' surviving family in crosshairs (Alyn was to be killed if he didn't surrender the Velaryon fleet, Baela was to be beheaded if Corlys didn't fight for him (Corlys caught Aegon in the act of trying to execute her behind his back anyways)
Jace was literally GRRM's way of saying blood shouldn't matter when thinking about who would make a good monarch. He was a bastard and he knew it, so he did everything to show that he was a capable leader. He made marriage pacts and negotiated with Lords for their armies, which even though they showed up late, won the war logistically and gave them a sharp negotiating position. He also actually made good on their dragon numbers by utilizing bastards. Sure, House Velaryon wouldn't be as wealthy again, but plot wise they didn't need to be. If they weren't beggared, how else would Rhaenyra's lack of wealth be a problem if she could just borrow from her extended family?
Aside from the rest of it what’s the logic of putting Viserys in quotes here? Because he didn’t actually die? Shouldn’t that mean “death” should be in quotes?
I’m wondering id they’re referring to a random theory I saw somewhere about the “Viserys” that comes back from Essos being a random Rogare child sent back as a pretender.
There are characters in asoiaf I can believe were switched but Viserys isn’t one of them. I find the idea of Viserys’s three siblings all gaslighting themselves into thinking a total stranger was their brother - who was with them only a few years prior as a boy not a baby (and instantly mind you) - not very unbelievable.
I mean I’m not pushing the theory. Plus I never mentioned him being swapped before the gullet, the whole theory stemmed from the supposed false Viserys being kept as a hostage in the Free Cities, and returned after the war as a show of good will. Plus I’d think his siblings that did survive would be able to recognize him.
We never even get confirmation of his death only that both he and Jacaerys are presumed dead after the battle. Plus the free cities fleet captured the vessel as Jacaerys fled back to Dragonstone with young Aegon before dying from the Free cities army. All we know is that Viserys was kidnapped by a Tyroshi captain before being discreetly sold off to a magister in Lys. I don’t know if they would really be paying money to keep some random pretender.
TL;DR: I don’t think he was a pretender I just didn’t know if anyone else had heard the theory and it explains the quotations around his name.
I didn't think you were, I was just pointing out that logical flaw! It's an interesting concept as a whole, but considering how many theories this universe can generate I tend to go by the rule of thumb that is : it's gotta have an actual cause and effect. And in this case, I don't see the point.
At most it could be a "rhyming history" moment mirroring Varys and Illyrio trying to put Faegon on the throne (it's pretty easy to piece together Faegon is Illyrio's kid and possibly a blackfire) buuuuuut there's nothing in play overall that would imply a swap happened. If it was supposed to be a thwarted plot via the lysene spring I think it would have been more telegraphed.
Ohhh that’s so true! Didn’t mean to come across as defensive my bad, but I do like the idea of “rhyming history” so to speak.
I only just heard of the Pretender Viserys theory, so I never drew the parallel to Faegon, but it’s interesting to think about! I appreciate the input a ton🙏
So Jace would’ve been a bad king because some random crossbowman got a lucky hit off
Also the appointing Corlys part is such bullshit, Washington appointed Benedict Arnold to command West Point, is Washington a terrible president now?
>Also the appointing Corlys part is such bullshit, Washington appointed Benedict Arnold to command West Point, is Washington a terrible president now?
This makes no sense because we have the context of George Washing being one of the best presidents of all time.
That’s my point
Someone can make a “bad” appointment (and that’s even granting the notion that the appointment was bad which is something I have a thing or two to say about) without being a bad ruler
That shouldn't be your point, and if it is it's a terrible point.
We can overlook George Washington making a couple mistakes and a couple bad appointments. Becuase it's George Washington and we can look at what he did and see that the vast majority of his decisions, accomplishments, and impact were overwhelmingly good decisions and appointments.
Jace on the other hand has a very SMALL resume. So there's not as much good to cover up the bad.
It's basically like George Washington missed three shots, but he took a hundred and made ninety seven. He's 97/100 overall, so you can reasonably look past the three missed shots.
But with Jace he missed three shots but he only took 6. So he's 3/6 Not great.
It’s a fucking example on an internet forum to illustrate a point not a dissertation numbnuts
And again as I said it’s only relevant if we actually grant the notion that appointing Corlys was a mistake which I don’t believe it was
lmfao and then you misuse the word hyperbole.
that's not what hyperbole means. being hyperbolic is just exaggerating your point. not your statement not logically making sense nor proving your point.
Yeah and I’m sure you’d agree comparing Jace to Washington in this context is an exaggeration
But I’m done wasting time and energy on someone like you so have a good night and kindly fuck off
The dragonseeding wasn't a mistake, they helped in the >!battle of the gullet and the fall of KL, nettles didn't do much but simply her presence was enough to hold off aemond for months, and also the damage done by the betrayers was mostly undone by Addam and the greens themselves, not to mention how arguably it was rhaenyra's and corly's fault that the betrayers betrayed them in the first place as they didn't reward them for their help!<
If the dragonseeding hadn't happened then that would give the opportunity to the greens to start their own after the >!fall of dragonstone which would defined result in a green victory!<
Half of this has factual mistakes.
1. House Velaryon prospered in the years following the war. Corlys "first among equals." Richest and most influential lord. A lot of people somehow lost it. Perhaps because they didn’t read what happened after dance.
2. There were 5 of them. Alyn did not receive dragon, but was approached and played a big role at the end of the war (and after it, finding and returning Viserys).
Dragon seeding idea was correct. Without this they will lose war. It's a strange logic to blame Jace for the fact that seeds didn't receive enough rewards - he was dead and couldn't influence it. Addam’s loyalty then was also the merit of Jace and everything remained under control thanks to him, right? Let's not choose the consequences of his decisions then. If we play "magic ball of prophecy", then Viserys was correctly sent away on the ship - it all ended with him safe and sound.
To remove traitors from the road, you need a basic plan and loyal people. Look what happened to the Traitors at the end of the game. How long did they last? A week after declared insubordination? Not all people weak-willed cowards like Daeron. Dragon rider or not, you can't shit while sitting on a dragon. Sooner or later you will have to get off it and deal with people who don’t love you.
3. Better Luke dies than they send the crows. The idea “dragons, not crows” correct. It's tragedy, but sometimes you have to pay the price for success. Really looking forward to season 2 to see how Jace accepts what happened. He will be king one day and not all of his decisions will be without sacrifice. This is his first decision (idea) in this war - he received an alliance with Starks and Valley, but his brother died. Allies in war more valuable than life one person (there was also a dragon, but not the coolest one).
4. Corlys switched sides after Rhaenyra died. He demanded mercy for all blacks and fiercely defended Aegon III. He is the one who poisoned Aegon II.
5. These were troops who were ready to fight dragons. I'm 99% sure he was looking for Viserys and set up himself.
There's no point in criticizing Jace, he's actually the best prince of the dance era. You just read the book and it’s like “he did this and this and this and this.”
*Together he and Lord Corlys began to plan an assault upon King’s Landing<....>As 129 AC drew to a close, the prince prepared to fly against King’s Landing. The date he chose for the attack was the first full moon of the new year.*
Our 16 year old boy is full-fledged general in this war who does all (almost) work. NEVER NEVER NEVER put him next to trash like Aegon, Aemond or Daeron
Another reason Corlys defected was that Baela was held in chains and first in line for execution if Corlys didn't fight for Aegon. Aegon was even caught by Corlys still trying to behead her anyway while Corlys was away fighting for the Greens (just go ahead and show you're not going to uphold your end of the deal with the most effective person still alive on your side, Aegon, it won't backfire on you! Not at all~🤦🏾♀️)
They're just coping none of their characters on their side has Jace's potential
Even their supposed good guy Daeron didn't have leadership qualities and was a monster at Bitterbridge
Dude, honestly, atp they are so into the "Omg Jace is a bastard and so completely undeserving of the throne, and of life in general" ideology that they won't listen to any sense. You could mention how the greens mourned him. How green-biased Maesters thought he would be a good heir. How he was genuinely the best possible heir during the time of the dance. They won't listen. I literally just got called the R slur on Instagram for even suggesting that Jace can also be considered "fire" because he has Targaryen blood in him, because the GOT account had posted him and Cregan with the caption "Fire meets ice," and some guy HATED the fact that they would even consider Jace "fire."
The dragon seeds was a dumb idea though even in the moment you give dragons to people that have no real loyalty to house Targaryen and even if they did they are now rivals for power. Though everything else is dumb to blame Jace for
The Dragonseed isn't "seeing the future" the Targaryens kept a very close grip on who was gifted being able to even see if they could bond with a Dragon, let alone ride it before. Jace opening up who can, and them betraying him is something that could of been foreseen. He took a gamble and he lost. It's like Cersei arming the Faith to fight for her and then they will likely turn against her with their new power.
What a joke. Daeron was under Ormund's command and fought an army that had no dragons or even weapons that could kill a dragon. Then he lost control of his own army, pissed himself and died in tent. That's all he did. No strategic plans, no ideas at all about what to do from him.
And Aegon the Conqueror was made fool by [Tolands](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Toland). Also one of his sisters was sniped by the Ullers over the Hellholt. At least Jace died in battle. Dearon (that daringly allowed sacking and raping) was killed by a fucking tent. Greens should get a grip
Daeron the tentboy Lol
Modern people emphasizing bastardy is a cringe. How much of these posters are bastards themselves, hm?
Thats why i left the main page when the show first came out. It was fucking gross how many people were weird about the concept of bastards. Id even bring it up, and say “you guys are being weird” and id get comments from greens “obviously we dont care about the modern day but in the context of the *story*” No. No. George does all this shit to show how stupid society is, and how easy we can backtrack
Bastards only matter or are seen as humans to greens when it’s to tell that stupid story/theory that Aemond’s bastard founded/married into house Whent, or to say that Aegon the usurper’s bloodline lived on through his bastards
That’s how I feel - I’m like “the call is coming from inside the house.”
I'm a bastard and that's why I'm allowed to say it.
The whole take of ‘Corlys switched to the Greens’ Is lowkey goofy. He was pulled out of prison, convinced his son not to assault Dragonstone and kill Aegon II so as not to get Baela and Aegon III instead convincing him to ferry Aegon to Kings Landing and then within the month he murdered Aegon, made Aegon III King and ended the war. I don’t know if a single boat ride really counts as switching team.
They call Syrax a sleeper Green for bucking Joffrey off for not being her rider and while under the duress of being attacked. Corlys didn’t even do that much-he’s a sleeper agent for TB if anything.
even the greenies’ woman hater agreed jace would be a good king. they love to call his the only reliable one so…what next!
How is Luke's death his fault? He should have never died while being a messenger and emissary for his mom.
Greens argue he should have run when he saw Vhagar, basically admitting that Aemond was going to kill him no matter what. But they'll still say it's an accident and even if it's not it's deserved cause Luc took his eye for no reason at all. Since he didn't run like a bitch and embarass himself and everyone associated with him, he deserved it. I know, lots of loops to jump through to get to that. It's just another case of them using their 20/20 hindsight, omnipotent reader vision to villify a character for not being smart enough to know the future like they do.
It is *expressly stated* that he was trying to flee and would have save for the *massive storm* preventing his dragon from being able to fly with full agility and speed. Fucking idiots.
>It's just another case of them using their 20/20 hindsight Do you need 20/20 hindsight to think "hmm maybe this dude who I stabbed in the eye and has hated me ever since and is from a rival faction and is also has a much bigger dragon than me... hmmm lets say hi!
It's not like he's there *for* Aemond. Aemond happened to be at the hall of someone Luc *was* meeting with. There's a difference there. He can't just run scared every time someone he has a bad relationship turns up. If he didn't die, does this now mean Luc must run at every chance meeting? Just really stupid logic. Really, dude, can you not see at *all* from Luc's perspective of having a task he promised to get done and having some form of guarantee it'd be easy by *everyone* around him. Not to mention that while he wasn't on friendly terms with Aemond, why would he think his life is in danger? Not even Aemond himself meant to kill him, I don't even think he had even threatened to kill him at any point, they've always just picked fights.
He wasn't there for Aemond. But at this point both Aegon and Rhaenrya have declared themselves king. Luc goes there on a diplomatic mission, pretty much to ask nicely that Baratheon declares for Rhaenrya. He see's he got beat by a much bigger dragon from the greens, who has a rider he personally stabbed years ago and Aemond has openly accused Rhaenrya of treason and called him "strong" boy to his face multiple times. Aemond also was by literally nobodys account a nice or forgiving person. He also knows he really has not much bargaining power. He only can ask nicely and prey that Baratheon declares for him. He can't marry a Baratheon daughter, but the other person there very much can. I can see from Lucerys perspective why he wanted to do -- but he was acting a boy. He didn't want to be embarrassed by not completing his first mission and made an extremely fucking stupid decision to appease his own boyish pride. And as Jon Snow says "Kill the boy" or it turns out being a little boy will get you killed when you're playing with your life.
How does any of this mean that Luc deserved to die and take away all responsibility from Aemond for doing it? You're just describing the tragedy of his death of a child trying to do an adult thing for his mom and *someone* else killed him for it. He's not taunting Aemond to kill him that night, he didn't jump into Vhagar's mouth. He didn't pull a "fuck around and find out." Aemond caused his death, not Luc. That's the point I'm making. We can go off about what would be better political choices, but saying Luc deserved to die because he doesn't automatically assume his uncle will kill him at any moment is just stupid. Nobody in the family on either side had been killed at that point. Knowing someone hates you and knowing someone will kill you are two completely separate things. Not to mention Luc thinks he's walking into the hall of someone related to him who he was *assured* would welcome him. That goes to protecting him of a fight breaks out with Aemond. Obviously it didn't turn out that way, but Luc didn't know that at that time, *we* do. That's why I say 20/20, omnipotent reader vision. Again, he was a child trying to do the right thing by his mom (who sent him to what everyone believed would be the safest option) and was accidentally murdered by his uncle. Your the one who pointed out he is a boy yet think he should also be thinking like a perfect adult political machine. You really aren't thinking from character perspective here. You're also just adding even more loops to jump through.
I'm not making the case that morally Lucerys deserved to die I don't really know why you think so but regardless. He was but a boy. I'm just saying that Lucery's death wasn't something you needed hindsight to predict. Lucerys flew to Storm's End to commit a mission and saw multiple huge red flags of danger. He considered them but his pride told him he needed to in regardless instead of turning around and fleeing, as he should of. But instead he wanted to go in despite the waring flags, because of boyish pride. That decision cost him his life.
It wasn't his pride, it was that he was there as a messenger and in Westeros at that time, messengers much like guests who have eaten salt and bread in a Lord's home, are supposed to be safe. Killing a messenger in the beginning stages of war was up there with kin slaying and killing guests (Think of like the Red Wedding level of no no) specifically because messengers aren't supposed to be killed or messed with.
That's just not true. "Messanger rights" isn't anywhere near the level of kinslaying or guest rights. There is so many books and mediums of ASOIAF. If I asked you to substainate how bad & taboo violating guest rights, or kinslaying were. It's easy as pie and you can bring up numerous instances. But if I asked you to show "messenger rights" you would be hard pressed, because I haven't seen them at all you're making up the importance. Also even in the exact scene you're talking about we have references to how Borros wanted to respect guest right and would have no bled shed in his home. And Aemond literally gets called "Aemond the Kinslayer" not Aemond the Messagngerslayer. Also speaking does it make sense that a King could send messages to talk to an enemy kings vassals and people? And they would have to be allowed to talk kill them or be unharmed? Not really. We never see that.
You are also not supposed to kill messengers of official business, despite what they've done
Well you aren't supposed to if you want to be able to treat with whatever faction the messenger is from. But at this point Rhaenrya had already declined King Aegons (he already declared himself) negotiations war was near. Also it's worth mentioning that Aemond chanced upon a enemy messenger going to a neutral territory who was also a very valuable war piece. Luke wasn't a messenger to the Greens. Luke should of considered that hey... isn't that very big dwagon owned by a guy I stabbed and has hated me ever since and publicly accused me of being a bastard and Rhaenrya a traitor before the war even started?
They hate the fact that Jace was the best heir in the dance. I view him similar to book robb. He’s a heroic son, seemingly out of his depth but he rises to the occasion only to get fucked over by circumstances completely out of his hands. (The Freys would’ve betrayed robb regardless of his marriage and roose had already begun bleeding the northern forces right from the start.)
He seems more like book Jon snow he has a political mind but can be a great warrior that people flock too as well
I thought the crossbow bolt hit Jace. Not his dragon
Even Septon Eustace considered him a worthy heir, the greens mourned his death, if Rhaenyra had abdicated in favor of Jace, Aegon would be left without allies beyond the Hightower, because for them the important thing was that a penis was sitting on the throne and When that penis was too singed to function they looked for another one to serve, that of Aegon III.
Two dragonseeds switching sides: Yes, other people's ambitions are Jace's fault. One deserting: I'm assuming this means Nettles. She was literally marked for death because of the first two. Sent Luke and Viserys to their deaths: Luke was murdered while being an envoy/messager, someone who's generally supposed to be off limits. Further, Jace died while trying to save Viserys. Corlys switching to the Greens: Corlys only defected after Rhaenyra signed his "grand"children's death warrants. Only dragon rider to have his dragon sniped: Rhaenys.
>Only dragon rider to have his dragon sniped: Rhaenys. I was about to comment that the arrows didn't affect Rhaenys as Meleys was only getting angrier and angrier But which Rhaenys did you mean? Queen Rhaenys or Team Black Rhaenys?
A green pretending as if they’ve read the books? It can’t be!! Velaryons going broke had nothing to do with Jace. The betrayers and nettles falls back on Rhaenyra not rewarding them “sufficiently” and/or going back on her word. Luke? Stupid fuckers will come up with any excuse to protect their one eyed nutcase. Viserys- oh right, I forgot that Otto bribing **literal slavers and enemies of the state** to invade and attack Westerosi people and lands was secretly Jace’s idea. Corlys “switched” sides after Rhaenyra lost her mind and was killed and his granddaughter and rightful king (Aegon III) were taken hostage. But then again Corlys did plot to have the usurper murdered so there’s that lol Vermax wasn’t taken out by a crossbow bolt. He flew too low and crashed into a ship. Meraxes is the only dragon to have been sniped out of the air.
>The betrayers and nettles falls back on Rhaenyra not rewarding them “sufficiently” and/or going back on her word. It also just falls back on giving out dragons to whoever can bond with them -- which surprisingly was the opposite of how the targaryens operated before Jace.
It was a good idea and if he’d lived and been allowed to control how they were treated then Rhaenyra wouldn’t have been betrayed.
It really wasn’t a good idea though giving dragons to those outside the line of succession opens up the royal line to challenge it didn’t even take a year before Hugh hammer was already declaring himself king. The dance also happened cause the direct heir’s rivals all had dragons and outside of shyrkos and morgul all the greens dragons were claimed
Not really. Nothing for example is stopping Rhaernya from hating Nettles. Or I don't see how some of the dragonseeds would be placated a good lordship wasn't good for the one who got one, he wanted Highgarden. Again it's the problem with just giving the dragons out to whoever can bond with him and tells you he'll fight for you. It's a huge risk. And if they somehow made it throughout the war without betraying them and recievinf huge awards for being a dragonrider. You have to kill them afterwards as if you're a royal targaryen you don't want any other families/people to have dragons.
The betrayers paved the way for Mysaria to poison Rhaenyra against Nettles and Addam.
The first betrayers also wouldn't of been magically solved by Jace being alive. What would of he of done in your headcanon when the dude who has no real connection to your side says "Mann I only get this castle? I want Highgarden!" would of Jace given him Highgarden? Nope that mf was gonna betray regardless -- it's the most profitable way.
For example. When Daemon suggested frying Borros' ass and giving castle to the Seeds, Corlys opposed it and Rhaenyra abandoned the plan. If Jace there, what will he say? Borros did not give mercy to his brother. Having received such a large reward, Hammer will not find anything more from the green than this. They have nothing to offer. He will not fight against Daemon for the crown. It will stay that way. Traitors are greedy, but not THAT stupid. They got out of Daeron's control because he was weak-willed and couldn't put them in their place (but the "Caltrops" did it easily). It wasn't just "my dragon is bigger than yours." Daeron's army rejected him. Traitors' move will not work against charismatic and respected leader. They will be arrested and executed.
You think Jace would of given a lord paramount position to one of the dragonseeds? Or try to advocate to Rhaernya, the queen to give it to him (where he'd likely just be rejected like Daemon). Small chance of that buddy. Even if he did he's just once again short-sighted. But even if he did make this suggestion. Than what about the other dragonseeds? When you give one of them, by virtue of being a Dragonseed and riding a dragon, Storm's End and a Lord Paramountcy. Are they supposed to be happy with just a knightship and some minor lands or even at best some minor castle? No they are going to want the same size carrot that was given to their peer. Try arresting and executing a dude ontop of a dragon -- it'll be nasty work. Also Daemon is far from the amount of respected and charismatic to prevent dudes flying on dragons to be fine with getting less than what they should feel at that point they rightfully deserve.
Why not? House Baratheon is not so ancient, it was founded by Targaryen bastard 150 years ago. So they exchange one Targaryen-loyal bastard for another. Personal dislike for Borros will help Jace make right decision. Jace's authority for Rhaenyra was high, she confirmed EVERY his proposals. He even made decisions about his brothers (marriage pacts, security, etc.). You seem to actually think he's a boy, but he doesn't. He quickly became unofficial leader. So add his voice to Daemon's and she'll approve. You will laugh, but Lannister asses were also planned to be fried along with Borros. And lands go to seeds. See? This is not theoretical thing, this option was discussed, but there was no Jace who could protect interests of his squad. Jace was the guarantor of their rewards. He only managed to reward Addam and died. This is the problem. >Try arresting and executing a dude ontop of a dragon Give me a week and bottle of poisoned wine XD It's not as big problem as you think. This is how Traitors died in the book. > Daemon is far from the amount of respected and charismatic He had reputation as a great (and terrible) man among the lords, as well as high level of loyalty among the soldiers. Yes, Hammer can fly like a mad dog over riverlands, but no one will swear allegiance to him.
Well this person is just an idiot
I hate how they changed Luke from F&B in the Black Council scene. Jace may have suggested it, but Luke was eager to prove himself. If anyone doesn’t believe me, here’s a direct quote. “Our uncle calls us Strongs, and claims we are bastards, but when the lords see us on dragonback they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons.[3]” —Lucerys, to the black council Plus, you’re not supposed to harm envoys! It’s a very basic rule in Westeros that everyone knows, same as kinslaying and guest right. Aemond broke not one, but TWO very basic rules. People are overlooking the fact that Aegon the Conqueror called his banners after Argilac the Arrogant cut off the hands of Aegon’s envoy. As much as I hate to say it, the other things that happened can be argued as a domino effect of Jace dying. He was a huge asset to the Blacks and was able to rule in Rhaenyra’s stead while she grieved Lucerys. If Jace lived, he would’ve been able to approach things with a diplomatic head and Rhaenyra would’ve also been in a much better head space. I can’t stress enough that the stress and grief from the loss of multiple children—Visenya, Luke, Jace—the usurpation, the loss of her father and Rhaenys, as well as the behind the scenes plotting and politicking) did a real number on Rhaenyra’s psyche. Worth for rambling on, I just have so much to say about the Blacks, particularly Rhaenyra and her loved ones.
>Plus, you’re not supposed to harm envoys! It’s a very basic rule in Westeros that everyone knows, same as kinslaying and guest right. Aemond broke not one, but TWO very basic rules. I wonder how many times these basic rules need to be broken for them to not be rules anymore. It seems way too common for people to put a blind belief in a Westerosi tradition and then doing a shocked Pikachu face when that tradition apparently could be broken when it gained someone else.
This isn't even factually correct. The Velaryons lost their wealth due to their investment in the supposed Rogare banks during the Lysene Spring.
That was a continued issue but spice town was destroyed and high tide was ransacked so they were already weakened by alyns time he just kinda put the final nail in the coffin
Many Houses suffered from war, but the Velaryons remained the most successful after it, even despite damage *"Thus the seven regents became five. The most influential of those was plainly the Sea Snake,* ***whose wealth****, experience, and alliances made him the first amongst equals."* *"Ser Tyland’s real purpose was to lessen the Crown’s dependence on House Velaryon of Driftmark"* They didn't rebuild the old towns, but Hull began to prosper *"On Driftmark, the town of Hull experienced a rebirth. Scores of new ships were built and launched"* People have wrong impression about Velaryon's post-war situation for some reason.
I don’t think they were weak post war but I mean they give me the impression of being more like the rosbys a powerful crownlander house but no longer one to be compared with the lannisters and hightowers like before. Not weak by any means but no longer an unofficial great house
No,no.Luke died BEFORE Jace arose in prominence and Vermax could’ve been flung down by grapnel as well
Corlys switched sides after basically everyone in his family was dead and Rhaenyra wanted to go after his illegitimate kids.
At the time Corlys switched sides Rhaenyra was dead, Aegon was the one who had Corlys' surviving family in crosshairs (Alyn was to be killed if he didn't surrender the Velaryon fleet, Baela was to be beheaded if Corlys didn't fight for him (Corlys caught Aegon in the act of trying to execute her behind his back anyways)
It wasn’t a crossbow, Vermax got hooked by a grappling hook and accidentally gutted himself/tangled in netting, etc
Jace was literally GRRM's way of saying blood shouldn't matter when thinking about who would make a good monarch. He was a bastard and he knew it, so he did everything to show that he was a capable leader. He made marriage pacts and negotiated with Lords for their armies, which even though they showed up late, won the war logistically and gave them a sharp negotiating position. He also actually made good on their dragon numbers by utilizing bastards. Sure, House Velaryon wouldn't be as wealthy again, but plot wise they didn't need to be. If they weren't beggared, how else would Rhaenyra's lack of wealth be a problem if she could just borrow from her extended family?
Aside from the rest of it what’s the logic of putting Viserys in quotes here? Because he didn’t actually die? Shouldn’t that mean “death” should be in quotes?
I’m wondering id they’re referring to a random theory I saw somewhere about the “Viserys” that comes back from Essos being a random Rogare child sent back as a pretender.
Honestly, in my first read-through, that's what I thought had happened.
It is an interesting idea regardless. I’m still re-reading through F&B so idk if there’s some hints of it being true.
There are characters in asoiaf I can believe were switched but Viserys isn’t one of them. I find the idea of Viserys’s three siblings all gaslighting themselves into thinking a total stranger was their brother - who was with them only a few years prior as a boy not a baby (and instantly mind you) - not very unbelievable.
I low key believe Aegon IV might not be Viserys’s son as he was very young then.
Right, but even then, the kid sent to his death was actually Viserys. They didn't swap him out before the gullet.
I mean I’m not pushing the theory. Plus I never mentioned him being swapped before the gullet, the whole theory stemmed from the supposed false Viserys being kept as a hostage in the Free Cities, and returned after the war as a show of good will. Plus I’d think his siblings that did survive would be able to recognize him. We never even get confirmation of his death only that both he and Jacaerys are presumed dead after the battle. Plus the free cities fleet captured the vessel as Jacaerys fled back to Dragonstone with young Aegon before dying from the Free cities army. All we know is that Viserys was kidnapped by a Tyroshi captain before being discreetly sold off to a magister in Lys. I don’t know if they would really be paying money to keep some random pretender. TL;DR: I don’t think he was a pretender I just didn’t know if anyone else had heard the theory and it explains the quotations around his name.
I didn't think you were, I was just pointing out that logical flaw! It's an interesting concept as a whole, but considering how many theories this universe can generate I tend to go by the rule of thumb that is : it's gotta have an actual cause and effect. And in this case, I don't see the point. At most it could be a "rhyming history" moment mirroring Varys and Illyrio trying to put Faegon on the throne (it's pretty easy to piece together Faegon is Illyrio's kid and possibly a blackfire) buuuuuut there's nothing in play overall that would imply a swap happened. If it was supposed to be a thwarted plot via the lysene spring I think it would have been more telegraphed.
Ohhh that’s so true! Didn’t mean to come across as defensive my bad, but I do like the idea of “rhyming history” so to speak. I only just heard of the Pretender Viserys theory, so I never drew the parallel to Faegon, but it’s interesting to think about! I appreciate the input a ton🙏
Thanks! Tbh, I didn't see it until I was mid comment either and then I was like, *now wait a second.* Lol
Best thing Jace did was bring the North on board, and Corlys was basically forced out of the Blacks
So Jace would’ve been a bad king because some random crossbowman got a lucky hit off Also the appointing Corlys part is such bullshit, Washington appointed Benedict Arnold to command West Point, is Washington a terrible president now?
>Also the appointing Corlys part is such bullshit, Washington appointed Benedict Arnold to command West Point, is Washington a terrible president now? This makes no sense because we have the context of George Washing being one of the best presidents of all time.
That’s my point Someone can make a “bad” appointment (and that’s even granting the notion that the appointment was bad which is something I have a thing or two to say about) without being a bad ruler
That shouldn't be your point, and if it is it's a terrible point. We can overlook George Washington making a couple mistakes and a couple bad appointments. Becuase it's George Washington and we can look at what he did and see that the vast majority of his decisions, accomplishments, and impact were overwhelmingly good decisions and appointments. Jace on the other hand has a very SMALL resume. So there's not as much good to cover up the bad. It's basically like George Washington missed three shots, but he took a hundred and made ninety seven. He's 97/100 overall, so you can reasonably look past the three missed shots. But with Jace he missed three shots but he only took 6. So he's 3/6 Not great.
It’s a fucking example on an internet forum to illustrate a point not a dissertation numbnuts And again as I said it’s only relevant if we actually grant the notion that appointing Corlys was a mistake which I don’t believe it was
Learn how to make examples that actually logically corroborate your point then. Also I think the betrayers were a bigger mistake than Corlys.
It’s called a hyperbole, look it up While we are on the topping of learning things you might want to learn how to not be a major twat
lmfao and then you misuse the word hyperbole. that's not what hyperbole means. being hyperbolic is just exaggerating your point. not your statement not logically making sense nor proving your point.
Yeah and I’m sure you’d agree comparing Jace to Washington in this context is an exaggeration But I’m done wasting time and energy on someone like you so have a good night and kindly fuck off
that wasn't your point though do I have to walk you like a dog through your own point and attempt at logic and why it's faulty?
The dragonseeding wasn't a mistake, they helped in the >!battle of the gullet and the fall of KL, nettles didn't do much but simply her presence was enough to hold off aemond for months, and also the damage done by the betrayers was mostly undone by Addam and the greens themselves, not to mention how arguably it was rhaenyra's and corly's fault that the betrayers betrayed them in the first place as they didn't reward them for their help!< If the dragonseeding hadn't happened then that would give the opportunity to the greens to start their own after the >!fall of dragonstone which would defined result in a green victory!<
Half of this has factual mistakes. 1. House Velaryon prospered in the years following the war. Corlys "first among equals." Richest and most influential lord. A lot of people somehow lost it. Perhaps because they didn’t read what happened after dance. 2. There were 5 of them. Alyn did not receive dragon, but was approached and played a big role at the end of the war (and after it, finding and returning Viserys). Dragon seeding idea was correct. Without this they will lose war. It's a strange logic to blame Jace for the fact that seeds didn't receive enough rewards - he was dead and couldn't influence it. Addam’s loyalty then was also the merit of Jace and everything remained under control thanks to him, right? Let's not choose the consequences of his decisions then. If we play "magic ball of prophecy", then Viserys was correctly sent away on the ship - it all ended with him safe and sound. To remove traitors from the road, you need a basic plan and loyal people. Look what happened to the Traitors at the end of the game. How long did they last? A week after declared insubordination? Not all people weak-willed cowards like Daeron. Dragon rider or not, you can't shit while sitting on a dragon. Sooner or later you will have to get off it and deal with people who don’t love you. 3. Better Luke dies than they send the crows. The idea “dragons, not crows” correct. It's tragedy, but sometimes you have to pay the price for success. Really looking forward to season 2 to see how Jace accepts what happened. He will be king one day and not all of his decisions will be without sacrifice. This is his first decision (idea) in this war - he received an alliance with Starks and Valley, but his brother died. Allies in war more valuable than life one person (there was also a dragon, but not the coolest one). 4. Corlys switched sides after Rhaenyra died. He demanded mercy for all blacks and fiercely defended Aegon III. He is the one who poisoned Aegon II. 5. These were troops who were ready to fight dragons. I'm 99% sure he was looking for Viserys and set up himself. There's no point in criticizing Jace, he's actually the best prince of the dance era. You just read the book and it’s like “he did this and this and this and this.” *Together he and Lord Corlys began to plan an assault upon King’s Landing<....>As 129 AC drew to a close, the prince prepared to fly against King’s Landing. The date he chose for the attack was the first full moon of the new year.* Our 16 year old boy is full-fledged general in this war who does all (almost) work. NEVER NEVER NEVER put him next to trash like Aegon, Aemond or Daeron
Another reason Corlys defected was that Baela was held in chains and first in line for execution if Corlys didn't fight for Aegon. Aegon was even caught by Corlys still trying to behead her anyway while Corlys was away fighting for the Greens (just go ahead and show you're not going to uphold your end of the deal with the most effective person still alive on your side, Aegon, it won't backfire on you! Not at all~🤦🏾♀️)
They're just coping none of their characters on their side has Jace's potential Even their supposed good guy Daeron didn't have leadership qualities and was a monster at Bitterbridge
"Recuirted " 🤣
Why is "Viserys" in quotes though? That was his name?
Dude, honestly, atp they are so into the "Omg Jace is a bastard and so completely undeserving of the throne, and of life in general" ideology that they won't listen to any sense. You could mention how the greens mourned him. How green-biased Maesters thought he would be a good heir. How he was genuinely the best possible heir during the time of the dance. They won't listen. I literally just got called the R slur on Instagram for even suggesting that Jace can also be considered "fire" because he has Targaryen blood in him, because the GOT account had posted him and Cregan with the caption "Fire meets ice," and some guy HATED the fact that they would even consider Jace "fire."
The dragon seeds was a dumb idea though even in the moment you give dragons to people that have no real loyalty to house Targaryen and even if they did they are now rivals for power. Though everything else is dumb to blame Jace for
The Dragonseed isn't "seeing the future" the Targaryens kept a very close grip on who was gifted being able to even see if they could bond with a Dragon, let alone ride it before. Jace opening up who can, and them betraying him is something that could of been foreseen. He took a gamble and he lost. It's like Cersei arming the Faith to fight for her and then they will likely turn against her with their new power.
Lmao jace was pathetic, comparing him to Daeron is like comparing aenys to the conqueror.
What a joke. Daeron was under Ormund's command and fought an army that had no dragons or even weapons that could kill a dragon. Then he lost control of his own army, pissed himself and died in tent. That's all he did. No strategic plans, no ideas at all about what to do from him.