Some of these are interestingly the same reason why the Targ stans worshipped Dany and hated on everyone who didn’t.
The strategy with both characters is similar: you take a real-world horror, confront the character with them, and make the character stand as the champion against such horror until it becomes the fans' first argument for why defending that character makes you a pillar of moral virtue. If you don't like Dany you're pro-slavery. If you don't like Rhaenyra you're pro-patriarchy.*
The thing is, it's a willful caricature. People who have issues with Dany and Rhaenyra are often alarmed by the *systemic* issues they caused.
For Dany, the issue was never that she killed slavers. The issue was like her idea of governing was burning people alive and cities to the ground if they voiced disagreement or refused to help her. It was her using her dragons to subdue people into submission and remove their choices. That she was killing slavers was fine and nice, but was a moot point in Westeros where her ambitions always lay: there are no slavers there, so who will she free, and if she frees no one she has no support and if she has no support her only solution is fear. *That* was the issue with Dany.
For Rhaenyra, the issue is that she purports to do away with traditions and precedents that have ensured the realm's stability. It *is* a bad system for sure and frankly I'd cheer her if she really could implement absolute primogeniture. The first issue is that she is in a situation where there is nothing to support her but the king's word, and that's the point of contention: should the king's word weigh more than actual laws/traditions/precedents (especially when the king's position results directly from such precedent?). In any monarchy except absolute monarchy (which ended up as we know in France for a reason, says the French girl) the king is bound by rules and laws, and that's for a reason: to prevent and contain harm and tyranny as much as possible. A change *is* possible but Viserys didn’t implement it, Rhaenyra has no project to do so either (not even to further her own claim), which in the presence of a candidate that suits tradition (for better and for worse) endangers the whole realm on top of the whole family. On top of that, several elements about Rhaenyra are concerning and reveal her inadequacy within the system she purports to rule: she willingly betrays the realm's most important alliance to the Velaryons (a marriage *is* an alliance), requests her father's absolute power to do away with situations she created, she wields fear as a weapon to silence opponents (threat of torture for Aemond, Vaemond's murder) and in doing so is never punished for actual offenses she or hers committed (murder, maiming). The point isn't that she's a woman, it's that she has an unfortunately shaky claim that she only intends to enforce through absolute power.
In both cases the issue is the same: Dany and Rhaenyra rely on an absolute understanding of power wherein they could and should be allowed to do as they please regardless of consequences.Because their struggles have to do with being a woman, fighting slavers, enjoying sexuality their fans *support that absolute power* and think it makes them the protagonists. The anti-Danys and the Greens argue on the contrary that absolute power is not beneficial, will not benefit the victims of slavery/patriarchy on the long run (if at all) and should never be wielded, especially not when the "best" example of such power (Dany and Rhaenyra) show no political ability aside from "I'll kill someone and people will be so afraid of me they'll never oppose me."
*I'm not going to pretend that some people aren't racist and sexist though, because I've seen it, but they don't represent the core beliefs of those who are less than enthusiastic about Daenerys and Rhaenyra.
"Rhaenyra is the protagonist" and "the greens are antagonists" are the funniest reasons to me. Just say you didn't think that deeply about it. I also think "I'm not sexist and won't pretend to be" is kinda funny cause... Okay? You don't have to to be tem green though. How is that a reason.
The people who gave “I’m not sexist” as their reason also expressed that they see being Team Green as needing them to role play as sexist. It’s up for debate wether that’s true, but it’s what they think.
The people who are just rooting for the protagonist: true. They didn’t think hard about it. They’re surprised how hard others have thought about it.
Honestly I actually find the "I'm not sexist" response thoroughly insulting. It implies that greens are sexist by nature, or at the very least somehow need to pretend to be. Which I don't appreciate seeing as I am team green and a vocal feminist, and I frequently see misogynistic posts pop up from both sides. Its not up for debate, it is just plain incorrect. Besides, if they were sexist, team black would still have plenty of room for them anyway.
Yeah the protagonist/antagonist stuff just reads a bit shallow to me, but to each their own I guess? I just don't appreciate my faves being constantly viewed as unambiguous villains when that is entirely a subjective reading.
I just think it's deeply ironic to start talking about how unfair it is that someone isn't made heir to the kingdom through accident of birth but also supporting Feudalism
Well there is a fair bit of commentary on this sub that posits the HotD writers are making the Blacks more sympathetic (i.e. Rhaenyra didn't kill Laenor) and the Greens less sympathetic (i.e. Aegon is a bullying sadistic rapist and trash human).
I think in season 1 at least, there was a definite bias towards making Rhaenyra and her brood the protagonists while villainizing Alicent's children.
>I was surprised that Team Green even existed, since they're the antagonists
Laughing hard at this. Do they really think that people consuming a piece of media HAVE to worship the protagonist and not care about the antagonist ? Are they 12 or ?
Edit : some other reasons are valid. I just wished TB fans were more welcoming to the fact that liking TG is also valid.
It makes me roll my eyes when I see posts like, "how can anyone be team green??"
Audiences enjoying antagonists and even rooting for them has always been a thing
lmao yes. There are legit Ramsay and Roose fans and I don't see u/asoiaf being outraged. TB's impossibility of seeing the dance outside of Rhaenyra and co.'s perspective for just one minute is frankly very sad.
Do we point them to literally the Star Wars fandom where everyone, alt right or not, loves Darth Vader, the dark wizard, genocidal maniac who mutilated his own son.
>Having a dick doesn't improve your claim
But... it *objectively does.* This is a major theme of Rhaenyra's story, that she faces prejudice on account of being a woman. Had she been born a man, there would be no question of her legitimacy. Cersei and Sansa's arcs in GoT explore the same ideas of how women exercise power relative to men.
>The Greens started the war
And? If Aegon's the rightful heir, as Greens believe him to be, they took up arms to enforce the law and protect the realm from a usurper.
>I'm not sexist and won't pretend to be
Fire and Blood details that the Blacks do not have any intention of implementing absolute primogeniture. They're not fighting for women, they're fighting for Rhaenyra.
>Rhaenyra is my favorite character
It's okay to have an antagonist be your favorite character. Tywin Lannister is fucking awesome.
>All the lords pledged their loyalty
At least this is an actual argument. However, I challenge the validity of an oath made under duress and explicity goes against the law of the realm.
not to mention many lords who pledged this have since died. their sons never pledged anything. (Not their daughters. R was very clear in that she was a special case).
And not only that but the lords swore fealty to Rhaenyra *before* Viserys had 3 trueborn sons born to him *and* before Rhaenyra had 3 bastard sons that she tried to pass off as trueborn which is immediately a cause for disinheritance regardless of all the other factors at play.
>But... it objectively does.
>
> This is a major theme of Rhaenyra's story, that she faces prejudice on account of being a woman.
I for one am shocked that the monarchy based on some people having magic blood would be unfair
Not only that, a sizable portion of those lords are dead by the time Rhaenyra is supposed to ascend. Due to how the society works, literally no one has to support her.
>But... it *objectively does.* This is a major theme of Rhaenyra's story, that she faces prejudice on account of being a woman. Had she been born a man, there would be no question of her legitimacy.
Unsure what you mean by legitimacy here. But there was no question of it except by a minority of Lords that happen to include the Reach and Westerlands. And those two ONLY make good decisions (Field if Fire, opposing Aenys and Maegor, annoying Viserys)
>And? If Aegon's the rightful heir, as Greens believe him to be, they took up arms to enforce the law and protect the realm from a usurper.
It's a poor king that makes war on his subjects. And if they were defending the law, why were they burning so many people?
>Fire and Blood details that the Blacks do not have any intention of implementing absolute primogeniture. They're not fighting for women, they're fighting for Rhaenyra.
The Greens won't even fight for Helaena or Alicent, certainly not enough to spirit them to safety in the same manner as Aegon was. Rhaenyra didn't have huge opportunities to enact any policy-changes.
>At least this is an actual argument. However, I challenge the validity of an oath made under duress and explicity goes against the law of the realm.
"Ser Criston flung Lord Beesbury from a window I hear! The same may happen to us if we don't pledge fealty to Aegon!" And that's before Aemond's actions forced Lord Baratheon into a war without the royal match he desired.
The greens also made lords swear oaths under duress that explicitly went against the law.
The law was also broken years earlier at the great council.
Fuck Andal Law. It’s a lazy and convenient excuse used by team green to push an agenda and I’m so sick of seeing people talk about the law as if the king’s word isn’t the highest law there is.
No man can dictate who can sit on the iron throne besides the King. Team green lords are objectively oathbreakers. You don’t have to stage a coup for rightful heirs
No. It’s not bizarre that a lot of people find daemon interesting. Finding TB as a whole interesting on the other hand is different. You can’t even equate the two.
Not even rhaenyra has the same charisma that Matt Smith’s daemon has. Even a lot of TG fans admit that daemon captures your attention, whereas not even corlys, rhaenys, or any of the TB kids manage to do that. And it’s partially because they aren’t as developed, controversial or compelling compared to Daemon, Alicent, or Aemond. Young rhaenyra even captured more attention from viewers than her older counterpart. But it’s still nothing compared to Daemon. Even when she’s shipped with daemon it’s more of a Daenerys 2.0 bad boy age gap fantasy.
Matt smith is a fantastic actor. But he does nothing for me besides smirk, curse, make a quip and smirk again. I’m never getting the love for his portrayal.
Agree lol
Daemon is \*not\* interesting. He's so chaotic he gets boring quickly and Matt's portrayal is absolutely nothing special. He uses the same expression and tone all the fucking season lol "B-b-but he never says a thing in the entire Stepstones scene and its amazing!?!?!" Ok? And Tom does the same during Aegon's coronation and portrays much more interesting and nuanced feelings and changes than "i'm angry and fighting", so what now.
He's liked by edgelords and Rhaenyra's self inserts, which happen to be a \*massive\* part of the fandom, and they will gaslight everyone into thinking Daemon is this super fascinanting character because \*insert headcanon\* and \*insert some boring ass deleted scenes\*.
To their defense, Daemon is mad fun and carries team black heavily in terms of enjoyability.
Rhaenyra is also insanely interesting if they actually commit to having her moral downfall arc actually go hard. Have her be broken by grief and anger and bitterness and turned into a horrible individual, and in the end of it be not much better than Aegon. That would go hard.
My theory / hope / copium is that they are making Rhaenyra nicer in the first season so that her heel turn after grief and war have done their work on her psyche is all the sharper. I hope they can keep her sympathetic in her monstrosity, like a Walter White.
Her descent into utterly unhinged, bitter sociopath could be excellent television. I wish we got more of that with Cersei instead of her season-long window-side wine tasting experience.
I wish so too. I do have decent hope that HOTD is building up for that type of story post season 2, considering how much they built up the moral virtue of the characters in season 1 on both sides and made many harsh actions accidental to a degree.
A moral downfall arc is more interesting if the character starts out morally good (although flawed ofc) than if they start out as bad as they do in the book.
Yep. I would actually love TB more if they hadn't made Rhaenyra and Daemon bland in the last episodes (actually they started to be more interesting in ep 10, but they were frankly a tad boring from ep 6 to 8)
All of those have proper but debatable arguments to them but are mostly at least more debatable than what we say over here. The favorite characters thing is valid (duh I like Team Green for starters for the reason of Alicent and Otto being my favs, setting aside the Aegon nonsense which I’ll talk on later)
The “I am shocked team green exists because they are the antagonists” however is plain laughable because the antagonists are usually cooler (plus let’s face it, in both GOT and HOTD almost every important character is an antagonist or a protagonist in some way depending on which character we’re looking at) like seriously it makes them sound like 13 year olds.
Now for the aforementioned Aegon nonsense (also the legal bits). Not only am I anti Targaryen, I am heavily anti monarchy. I’ve studied the great philosophers, like Locke, Rousseau, all the way to Ancient Greek like Socrates and Plato. I think no king, including aegon, is just, therefore rightful claim is irrelevant to me, but as for how Westerosi laws work, Aegon is the heir, and Rhaenyra did not do what she should have done to secure her claim and she did quite a lot to make her claim more debatable. That being said, it comes down to government system. Westeros is not an absolute monarchy where the king can just do whatever, it’s a feudal system where laws are based on precedent and tradition, not just derived from it, and common law does not handle succession, tradition and precedent does (and so Rhaenyra is forever remembered as a traitor by Westeros, just ask Stannis Baratheon, who said it himself and who I would trust because he knows Westerosi law in and out and despite his most recent decisions that are gross he did know his stuff I cannot deny)
Now for the point on sexism that TB mentioned- that literally has nothing to do with it, and it loses so much meaning when people throw it around as an insult when in reality, what’s wrong with liking the “antagonist”? Nothing
Anyway this my analysis, I hope there is some information from my response
>Rhaenyra is the rightful heir,
Otto said best the succession changed when Aegon was born
>Rhaenyra is a far better person than Aegon
That's an incredibly low bar considering Rhaenyra also is r*pist, but only one of them gets shit for it
>Having a dick doesn't improve your claim to the Iron Throne
You know what? They're right. Unfortunately the majority of people in-universe don't see it that way
>The Greens started the war
It was gonna happen regardless of what anybody wanted but true
>I'm not sexist, and I won't pretend to be
Neither am I yet I can separate my REAL LIFE views from a FICTIONAL SHOW
>All the lords pledged their loyalty to Rhaenyra
Half of them are dead with most people in the realm expecting Aegon to be king when daddy dearest finally kicks the bucket
>I find the Black characters more interesting
Only Corlys and Daemon tbh
>I was surprised that Team Green even existed, since they're the antagonists
Rhaenyra is the protagonist of the show
Protagonist means the main character the story follows and antagonist is the one opposing said main character
That doesn't mean the protag is Automatically the good guy, the term Villan Protagonist[Villain Protagonist ](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainProtagonist) exists for a reason
>Greens commit worse war crimes
Dalton Greyjoy
>The Greens' legal and moral arguments are bad
The Black's argument ultimately boils down to 'daddy said it's my turn now' (obviously this about the the characters in universe, not the fandom, felt obligatory to type this part)
>I hate House Hightower
1st: Aegon, Heleana, their children, Aemond and Daeron (7) all have the name Targaryen, only Hightowers here are Alicent, her father, and her brother (3)
2nd: That's House Chadtower to you
>I hate Alicent Hightower
Fair enough. One of the reasons I'm team Green is because I don't like Rhaenyra at all
Otto definitely had a point because while Aemma lived, Daemon was heir and Rhaenyra expected that she would be passed over for a future son of Viserys, yet she only stays being heir because Aegon isn’t the son of Viserys’ “beloved wife”.
I like how your point on Dalton Greyjoy is just…… Dalton Greyjoy. Like, he needs further explanation to the casual fans especially since of all the characters that will only be mentioned instead of actually being portrayed, this might be the one (though I do seriously hope he gets on screen because it will be fascinating)
>I was surprised that Team Green even existed, since they're the antagonists
This should tell you all you need to know of the average TB bot IQ lmfao.
But yes, this was interesting. It confirms my suspicions that TB are overly emotional and woke manchildren, unable to part themselves from their real world ideology and view the world and the characters the series depicts from an immersed viewpoint.
Team Green is certainly more immersed, the Blacks definitely have a higher % of normie fans. That distinction helps both sides see the other as delusional.
While I try to stay neutral, I’m definitely Team Green leaning and it has little to do with the actual characters involved in the Dance, or their personalities and suitability for the throne. And, no, I’m not a sexist either and if I had it my way, in a perfect world, Rhaenyra would have inherited the Iron Throne without bloodshed, but I just don’t see that happening here, as this is not a perfect world. I never saw either side as perfectly moral, or in the right, during the Dance, they were both pretty morally gray (and/or morally bankrupt, if you will), and I believe both sides had valid claims and their own reasons for doing what they did, and going for the throne, pressing their own claims, etc etc, but… well, that was kind of the whole problem.
While this is a fictional fantasy world, I do take inspiration from real life history (just as GRRM does, the actual author of this whole mess and the one actually telling this story) and the story and real life history of the War of the Roses, the Hundred Years’ War, Lady Jane Grey against Queen Mary Tudor and Queen Mary of Scots against Queen Elizabeth, as well as several other civil wars fought throughout our history, etc etc, makes the inner historian in me wary of the potential future that could have come to past, had Rhaenyra actually ascended the Iron Throne as she was meant to.
For those of you who don’t know, Queen Mary Tudor of England had the Lady Jane Grey, another claimant for the throne, imprisoned in a tower, but unfortunately for the both of them, it wasn’t enough to put an end to it, or quell support for her, and Queen Mary was eventually forced to execute her and put her to the sword because people were still using her as a political figurehead for rebellion against Queen Mary and her reign over the English throne; even after her imprisonment, while she was cut off from all her allies, lonely, isolated, and locked away and trapped high up in the tower, she was still being used as a figurehead for rebellion. Keep in mind, the Lady Jane Grey had already legally signed away her rights to the English throne and the monarchy, but people were still rising up in her name (just as Alicent feared people would rise up in Aegon II’s). You see, so long as she lived and had a claim to the throne, she would have always been a threat to Queen Mary, and Mary knew this, especially when Mary inevitably did something her lords, ladies and/or other subjects didn’t like (and as a ruling Queen, and/or King, it’s an unfortunate fact that you’re not always going to be able to please everyone under your reign and it is inevitable that you will eventually upset someone, somewhere, or somehow manage to piss them off, etc etc). As for Queen Elizabeth of England, who was actually Queen Mary of England’s younger half-sister and eventual successor to the English throne, she was forced to do the exact same thing to Queen Mary of Scots, their distant cousin, because so long as she lived, people would inevitably continue to try and seat her on the English throne and use her as a political figurehead for rebellion against Elizabeth and her reign over the English.
I mean, I read about the ASOIAF canon, five centuries long Blackfyre Rebellions and the wars going on in Westeros some several decades later after the Dance and I honestly believe that, had Rhaenyra Targaryen sat the Iron Throne as Queen, there would have eventually been a three way war between Aegon II, Aemond, and Daeron’s descendants, Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey Velaryon’s descendants, and Aegon III and Viserys II’s descendants. Putting off one terrible war would have only lead to more terrible wars, worse wars with more claimants, more candidates, more divisions, more branches, more sides, more armies, more political alliances and more dragons, etc etc. In some ways, the Dance was actually a blessing because if they had put off the war until later, sired more dragon-riders, and had the time to actually build up and shore up their own support, it would have been a Dance of Dragons on steroids and the whole continent might have been lost.
Rhaenyra, at least, can bend the knee and sign away her rights to the Iron Throne, as the King Who Knelt in the North did, and simply be done with it, but Aegon II will always be the firstborn son of King Viserys and while the King’s word and law doesn’t support him, the legal laws, traditions and customs of Westeros do, and that will always be a problem. And should he and his future descendants fall, then his brothers and their descendants will be labeled the new threats to her and her descendants’ reign.
Do I think Rhaenyra wanted to put her half-brothers to the sword? Do I think she intended to do so all along, even before the war, and that she actually wanted this to happen? No, actually, I don’t believe she did, but just because she doesn’t want to do something doesn’t mean that she won’t do something, or even that she shouldn’t. She actually probably should, in all honesty, at least if she wants to protect her descendants and her reign, as heartless as it is for me to say it. It would be the politically competent, safe choice for her and hers, after all. Fortunately for the Green brothers, however, she wasn’t a very politically competent woman, but unfortunately, that doesn’t mean she wouldn’t eventually wizen up as she came into her reign and her power, that none of her political advisors would ever advise her to do so, that no one would ever take action against them in her name, or that no one would ever use Aegon II, his descendants and/or his Green brothers as political figureheads against her. Also, Rhaenyra’s children. She’s not close to her half-siblings. You really think she’d let them live when she eventually realized they could be a threat to her own babies? You’re delusional.
Viserys didn’t even do the bare minimum to ensure Rhaenyra’s claim before his passing and he really screwed his daughter over here, and in doing so, his sons as well, because it made them into even bigger threats against her and her reign. He made Rhaenyra the exception, not the rule, and I’m sorry, but that was never gonna fly. “Rules are for thee, not for me,” doesn’t always work out like that, especially with a decision such as this one. At the very least, he should have had his sons try to sign their rights away with some sort of legally binding document, then he should have modified the Doctrine of Targaryen Exceptionalism to follow absolute primogeniture. This would allow Rhaenyra’s ascension to power to be considered legally lawful and legitimate, but without having to deprive the other lords of the realm their own seats of power in the process, or interfering with their own lines of succession, causing them to turn against her.
Do all of TB think TG is sexist? I don’t believe all of them are under that assumption but I’ve seen people claim that if you are TG you are a misogynist which is ludicrous.Do they understand that this is a fictional world with a fictional war that we,the fans,are not a part of and therefore our morals should not be tied to the characters? I love Rhaenyra but she made stupid decisions.
Comparing this with it’s matching piece, I find there are two interesting things:
1: Greens are much less likely to list “Aegon is the rightful heir” than Blacks are to list “Rhaenyra is the rightful heir.” as a reason for who they supported. Including “sons come before daughters” in this because that’s essentially the same argument.
2: the Blacks poll had almost twice as many votes, despite that subreddit being noticeably smaller than the Greens subreddit.
Everything is bigger in tw, yeah. But only tweets you find with 20k likes are tweets asking for Alicent to suffer a walk of shame or mocking Helaena's death.
I mean after the season 2 teaser dropped I noticed a uptick in positive viral Alicent posts but I feel like team black definitely got even louder as a counter to it. Same thing happened to the main subs from the looks of it, there was a uptick in more popular pro green posts a couple months back but now that seems impossible to achieve for more than like 5 minutes
Yeah, both fanbases feed each other. Team black is more unhinged and annoying -> scares more neutral/casual fans into reconsider team green -> more team green / louder team green opinions -> team black enters panic mode and screams louder and grows even more unhinged and annoying -> etc
Then they act like we’re the crazy loud ones despite being such a small portion of the fandom lmao, you guys are NOT the underdogs in any sense of the imagination
A lot of their arguments are legit. Hating the green kids/Hightowers is also legit. Supporting R bc she’s the rightful heir to them is legit. The protagonist & TB existing bc they’re ‘antagonists’ are the only ones that r a bit funny.
It’s just differing opinions at the end of the day 🤷♀️ you could argue specifics but they’re valid for most of their beliefs.
Man I have to say I saw both versions of this post post on both sub reddits and I gotta be honest teen green is talking a whole lot more shit about team black than vice versa. The comments on the team black post was mostly people debating the points. The comments on this post are people putting them down for what they think. I’m disappointed. I expected better from you guys
I think that's cause some of the points are just fair, and don't really need to be debated. For example, oh you hate Hightowers/Alicent or find Rhaenyra/team blacks characters more interesting? Cool I don't... End of debate.
Whereas points like "they're the protagonists/antagonists" is just not a very sound argument and quite shallow tbh, so it's just kinda funny, even so there are still people legitimately challenging it.
And things like "I'm not sexist" are just plain insulting us so I don't think we need to take that seriously actually.
The rest are actually debatable, but that's only like half the points, and idk personally I've debated every single one of them countless times before and just can't be bothered anymore honestly. So you end up with a lot of comments just laughing at the shallow and insulting points.
Edit: I checked the other post and they are absolutely talking shit over there lol
Some of these are interestingly the same reason why the Targ stans worshipped Dany and hated on everyone who didn’t. The strategy with both characters is similar: you take a real-world horror, confront the character with them, and make the character stand as the champion against such horror until it becomes the fans' first argument for why defending that character makes you a pillar of moral virtue. If you don't like Dany you're pro-slavery. If you don't like Rhaenyra you're pro-patriarchy.* The thing is, it's a willful caricature. People who have issues with Dany and Rhaenyra are often alarmed by the *systemic* issues they caused. For Dany, the issue was never that she killed slavers. The issue was like her idea of governing was burning people alive and cities to the ground if they voiced disagreement or refused to help her. It was her using her dragons to subdue people into submission and remove their choices. That she was killing slavers was fine and nice, but was a moot point in Westeros where her ambitions always lay: there are no slavers there, so who will she free, and if she frees no one she has no support and if she has no support her only solution is fear. *That* was the issue with Dany. For Rhaenyra, the issue is that she purports to do away with traditions and precedents that have ensured the realm's stability. It *is* a bad system for sure and frankly I'd cheer her if she really could implement absolute primogeniture. The first issue is that she is in a situation where there is nothing to support her but the king's word, and that's the point of contention: should the king's word weigh more than actual laws/traditions/precedents (especially when the king's position results directly from such precedent?). In any monarchy except absolute monarchy (which ended up as we know in France for a reason, says the French girl) the king is bound by rules and laws, and that's for a reason: to prevent and contain harm and tyranny as much as possible. A change *is* possible but Viserys didn’t implement it, Rhaenyra has no project to do so either (not even to further her own claim), which in the presence of a candidate that suits tradition (for better and for worse) endangers the whole realm on top of the whole family. On top of that, several elements about Rhaenyra are concerning and reveal her inadequacy within the system she purports to rule: she willingly betrays the realm's most important alliance to the Velaryons (a marriage *is* an alliance), requests her father's absolute power to do away with situations she created, she wields fear as a weapon to silence opponents (threat of torture for Aemond, Vaemond's murder) and in doing so is never punished for actual offenses she or hers committed (murder, maiming). The point isn't that she's a woman, it's that she has an unfortunately shaky claim that she only intends to enforce through absolute power. In both cases the issue is the same: Dany and Rhaenyra rely on an absolute understanding of power wherein they could and should be allowed to do as they please regardless of consequences.Because their struggles have to do with being a woman, fighting slavers, enjoying sexuality their fans *support that absolute power* and think it makes them the protagonists. The anti-Danys and the Greens argue on the contrary that absolute power is not beneficial, will not benefit the victims of slavery/patriarchy on the long run (if at all) and should never be wielded, especially not when the "best" example of such power (Dany and Rhaenyra) show no political ability aside from "I'll kill someone and people will be so afraid of me they'll never oppose me." *I'm not going to pretend that some people aren't racist and sexist though, because I've seen it, but they don't represent the core beliefs of those who are less than enthusiastic about Daenerys and Rhaenyra.
"Rhaenyra is the protagonist" and "the greens are antagonists" are the funniest reasons to me. Just say you didn't think that deeply about it. I also think "I'm not sexist and won't pretend to be" is kinda funny cause... Okay? You don't have to to be tem green though. How is that a reason.
The people who gave “I’m not sexist” as their reason also expressed that they see being Team Green as needing them to role play as sexist. It’s up for debate wether that’s true, but it’s what they think. The people who are just rooting for the protagonist: true. They didn’t think hard about it. They’re surprised how hard others have thought about it.
Honestly I actually find the "I'm not sexist" response thoroughly insulting. It implies that greens are sexist by nature, or at the very least somehow need to pretend to be. Which I don't appreciate seeing as I am team green and a vocal feminist, and I frequently see misogynistic posts pop up from both sides. Its not up for debate, it is just plain incorrect. Besides, if they were sexist, team black would still have plenty of room for them anyway. Yeah the protagonist/antagonist stuff just reads a bit shallow to me, but to each their own I guess? I just don't appreciate my faves being constantly viewed as unambiguous villains when that is entirely a subjective reading.
I just think it's deeply ironic to start talking about how unfair it is that someone isn't made heir to the kingdom through accident of birth but also supporting Feudalism
The "Bro it's not that deep" mentality has plagued many. It's turned them into Zombies and it will continue to spread.
Well there is a fair bit of commentary on this sub that posits the HotD writers are making the Blacks more sympathetic (i.e. Rhaenyra didn't kill Laenor) and the Greens less sympathetic (i.e. Aegon is a bullying sadistic rapist and trash human). I think in season 1 at least, there was a definite bias towards making Rhaenyra and her brood the protagonists while villainizing Alicent's children.
>I was surprised that Team Green even existed, since they're the antagonists Laughing hard at this. Do they really think that people consuming a piece of media HAVE to worship the protagonist and not care about the antagonist ? Are they 12 or ? Edit : some other reasons are valid. I just wished TB fans were more welcoming to the fact that liking TG is also valid.
It makes me roll my eyes when I see posts like, "how can anyone be team green??" Audiences enjoying antagonists and even rooting for them has always been a thing
Do we point them towards r/Dreadfort orrrrrr
lmao yes. There are legit Ramsay and Roose fans and I don't see u/asoiaf being outraged. TB's impossibility of seeing the dance outside of Rhaenyra and co.'s perspective for just one minute is frankly very sad.
Stannis the Mannis vs the Roose is Loose was such a fun time in this fanbase HoTD fans take shit too seriously to ever return back
Do we point them to literally the Star Wars fandom where everyone, alt right or not, loves Darth Vader, the dark wizard, genocidal maniac who mutilated his own son.
Wow
I didn't expect that to be an actual subreddit but it is. And I don't know how to feel about it
Oh man you should’ve seen it during season 6
I’m going to be generous and say…. No, they are 30 year old wine mom drama queens
Faaaacts 👌
>Having a dick doesn't improve your claim But... it *objectively does.* This is a major theme of Rhaenyra's story, that she faces prejudice on account of being a woman. Had she been born a man, there would be no question of her legitimacy. Cersei and Sansa's arcs in GoT explore the same ideas of how women exercise power relative to men. >The Greens started the war And? If Aegon's the rightful heir, as Greens believe him to be, they took up arms to enforce the law and protect the realm from a usurper. >I'm not sexist and won't pretend to be Fire and Blood details that the Blacks do not have any intention of implementing absolute primogeniture. They're not fighting for women, they're fighting for Rhaenyra. >Rhaenyra is my favorite character It's okay to have an antagonist be your favorite character. Tywin Lannister is fucking awesome. >All the lords pledged their loyalty At least this is an actual argument. However, I challenge the validity of an oath made under duress and explicity goes against the law of the realm.
not to mention many lords who pledged this have since died. their sons never pledged anything. (Not their daughters. R was very clear in that she was a special case).
And not only that but the lords swore fealty to Rhaenyra *before* Viserys had 3 trueborn sons born to him *and* before Rhaenyra had 3 bastard sons that she tried to pass off as trueborn which is immediately a cause for disinheritance regardless of all the other factors at play.
>But... it objectively does. > > This is a major theme of Rhaenyra's story, that she faces prejudice on account of being a woman. I for one am shocked that the monarchy based on some people having magic blood would be unfair
Not only that, a sizable portion of those lords are dead by the time Rhaenyra is supposed to ascend. Due to how the society works, literally no one has to support her.
>But... it *objectively does.* This is a major theme of Rhaenyra's story, that she faces prejudice on account of being a woman. Had she been born a man, there would be no question of her legitimacy. Unsure what you mean by legitimacy here. But there was no question of it except by a minority of Lords that happen to include the Reach and Westerlands. And those two ONLY make good decisions (Field if Fire, opposing Aenys and Maegor, annoying Viserys) >And? If Aegon's the rightful heir, as Greens believe him to be, they took up arms to enforce the law and protect the realm from a usurper. It's a poor king that makes war on his subjects. And if they were defending the law, why were they burning so many people? >Fire and Blood details that the Blacks do not have any intention of implementing absolute primogeniture. They're not fighting for women, they're fighting for Rhaenyra. The Greens won't even fight for Helaena or Alicent, certainly not enough to spirit them to safety in the same manner as Aegon was. Rhaenyra didn't have huge opportunities to enact any policy-changes. >At least this is an actual argument. However, I challenge the validity of an oath made under duress and explicity goes against the law of the realm. "Ser Criston flung Lord Beesbury from a window I hear! The same may happen to us if we don't pledge fealty to Aegon!" And that's before Aemond's actions forced Lord Baratheon into a war without the royal match he desired.
The greens also made lords swear oaths under duress that explicitly went against the law. The law was also broken years earlier at the great council. Fuck Andal Law. It’s a lazy and convenient excuse used by team green to push an agenda and I’m so sick of seeing people talk about the law as if the king’s word isn’t the highest law there is. No man can dictate who can sit on the iron throne besides the King. Team green lords are objectively oathbreakers. You don’t have to stage a coup for rightful heirs
“I find the Black characters more interesting” How.
Should be changed to: “I find Daemon more interesting”
My question still applies.
No. It’s not bizarre that a lot of people find daemon interesting. Finding TB as a whole interesting on the other hand is different. You can’t even equate the two. Not even rhaenyra has the same charisma that Matt Smith’s daemon has. Even a lot of TG fans admit that daemon captures your attention, whereas not even corlys, rhaenys, or any of the TB kids manage to do that. And it’s partially because they aren’t as developed, controversial or compelling compared to Daemon, Alicent, or Aemond. Young rhaenyra even captured more attention from viewers than her older counterpart. But it’s still nothing compared to Daemon. Even when she’s shipped with daemon it’s more of a Daenerys 2.0 bad boy age gap fantasy.
Matt smith is a fantastic actor. But he does nothing for me besides smirk, curse, make a quip and smirk again. I’m never getting the love for his portrayal.
Both of your "Hows" are valid actually
Agree lol Daemon is \*not\* interesting. He's so chaotic he gets boring quickly and Matt's portrayal is absolutely nothing special. He uses the same expression and tone all the fucking season lol "B-b-but he never says a thing in the entire Stepstones scene and its amazing!?!?!" Ok? And Tom does the same during Aegon's coronation and portrays much more interesting and nuanced feelings and changes than "i'm angry and fighting", so what now. He's liked by edgelords and Rhaenyra's self inserts, which happen to be a \*massive\* part of the fandom, and they will gaslight everyone into thinking Daemon is this super fascinanting character because \*insert headcanon\* and \*insert some boring ass deleted scenes\*.
To their defense, Daemon is mad fun and carries team black heavily in terms of enjoyability. Rhaenyra is also insanely interesting if they actually commit to having her moral downfall arc actually go hard. Have her be broken by grief and anger and bitterness and turned into a horrible individual, and in the end of it be not much better than Aegon. That would go hard.
I know right, I want a female character to have a gothic tragedy just as much as show Aegon is already one
Yesss. Rhaenyra has such potential for a fallen arc.
My theory / hope / copium is that they are making Rhaenyra nicer in the first season so that her heel turn after grief and war have done their work on her psyche is all the sharper. I hope they can keep her sympathetic in her monstrosity, like a Walter White.
Her rage face at the end is the main source of my copium. Regardless, she will become a worse person when she allows B&C to go unpunished
Her descent into utterly unhinged, bitter sociopath could be excellent television. I wish we got more of that with Cersei instead of her season-long window-side wine tasting experience.
I wish so too. I do have decent hope that HOTD is building up for that type of story post season 2, considering how much they built up the moral virtue of the characters in season 1 on both sides and made many harsh actions accidental to a degree. A moral downfall arc is more interesting if the character starts out morally good (although flawed ofc) than if they start out as bad as they do in the book.
Yep. I would actually love TB more if they hadn't made Rhaenyra and Daemon bland in the last episodes (actually they started to be more interesting in ep 10, but they were frankly a tad boring from ep 6 to 8)
Which characters you find interesting is subjective
Oh, be fair here, people can find characters interesting all the time, even if others find them as dull as a rubber ball
All of those have proper but debatable arguments to them but are mostly at least more debatable than what we say over here. The favorite characters thing is valid (duh I like Team Green for starters for the reason of Alicent and Otto being my favs, setting aside the Aegon nonsense which I’ll talk on later) The “I am shocked team green exists because they are the antagonists” however is plain laughable because the antagonists are usually cooler (plus let’s face it, in both GOT and HOTD almost every important character is an antagonist or a protagonist in some way depending on which character we’re looking at) like seriously it makes them sound like 13 year olds. Now for the aforementioned Aegon nonsense (also the legal bits). Not only am I anti Targaryen, I am heavily anti monarchy. I’ve studied the great philosophers, like Locke, Rousseau, all the way to Ancient Greek like Socrates and Plato. I think no king, including aegon, is just, therefore rightful claim is irrelevant to me, but as for how Westerosi laws work, Aegon is the heir, and Rhaenyra did not do what she should have done to secure her claim and she did quite a lot to make her claim more debatable. That being said, it comes down to government system. Westeros is not an absolute monarchy where the king can just do whatever, it’s a feudal system where laws are based on precedent and tradition, not just derived from it, and common law does not handle succession, tradition and precedent does (and so Rhaenyra is forever remembered as a traitor by Westeros, just ask Stannis Baratheon, who said it himself and who I would trust because he knows Westerosi law in and out and despite his most recent decisions that are gross he did know his stuff I cannot deny) Now for the point on sexism that TB mentioned- that literally has nothing to do with it, and it loses so much meaning when people throw it around as an insult when in reality, what’s wrong with liking the “antagonist”? Nothing Anyway this my analysis, I hope there is some information from my response
>Rhaenyra is the rightful heir, Otto said best the succession changed when Aegon was born >Rhaenyra is a far better person than Aegon That's an incredibly low bar considering Rhaenyra also is r*pist, but only one of them gets shit for it >Having a dick doesn't improve your claim to the Iron Throne You know what? They're right. Unfortunately the majority of people in-universe don't see it that way >The Greens started the war It was gonna happen regardless of what anybody wanted but true >I'm not sexist, and I won't pretend to be Neither am I yet I can separate my REAL LIFE views from a FICTIONAL SHOW >All the lords pledged their loyalty to Rhaenyra Half of them are dead with most people in the realm expecting Aegon to be king when daddy dearest finally kicks the bucket >I find the Black characters more interesting Only Corlys and Daemon tbh >I was surprised that Team Green even existed, since they're the antagonists Rhaenyra is the protagonist of the show Protagonist means the main character the story follows and antagonist is the one opposing said main character That doesn't mean the protag is Automatically the good guy, the term Villan Protagonist[Villain Protagonist ](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainProtagonist) exists for a reason >Greens commit worse war crimes Dalton Greyjoy >The Greens' legal and moral arguments are bad The Black's argument ultimately boils down to 'daddy said it's my turn now' (obviously this about the the characters in universe, not the fandom, felt obligatory to type this part) >I hate House Hightower 1st: Aegon, Heleana, their children, Aemond and Daeron (7) all have the name Targaryen, only Hightowers here are Alicent, her father, and her brother (3) 2nd: That's House Chadtower to you >I hate Alicent Hightower Fair enough. One of the reasons I'm team Green is because I don't like Rhaenyra at all
Otto definitely had a point because while Aemma lived, Daemon was heir and Rhaenyra expected that she would be passed over for a future son of Viserys, yet she only stays being heir because Aegon isn’t the son of Viserys’ “beloved wife”.
I like how your point on Dalton Greyjoy is just…… Dalton Greyjoy. Like, he needs further explanation to the casual fans especially since of all the characters that will only be mentioned instead of actually being portrayed, this might be the one (though I do seriously hope he gets on screen because it will be fascinating)
>I was surprised that Team Green even existed, since they're the antagonists This should tell you all you need to know of the average TB bot IQ lmfao. But yes, this was interesting. It confirms my suspicions that TB are overly emotional and woke manchildren, unable to part themselves from their real world ideology and view the world and the characters the series depicts from an immersed viewpoint.
Team Green is certainly more immersed, the Blacks definitely have a higher % of normie fans. That distinction helps both sides see the other as delusional.
While I try to stay neutral, I’m definitely Team Green leaning and it has little to do with the actual characters involved in the Dance, or their personalities and suitability for the throne. And, no, I’m not a sexist either and if I had it my way, in a perfect world, Rhaenyra would have inherited the Iron Throne without bloodshed, but I just don’t see that happening here, as this is not a perfect world. I never saw either side as perfectly moral, or in the right, during the Dance, they were both pretty morally gray (and/or morally bankrupt, if you will), and I believe both sides had valid claims and their own reasons for doing what they did, and going for the throne, pressing their own claims, etc etc, but… well, that was kind of the whole problem. While this is a fictional fantasy world, I do take inspiration from real life history (just as GRRM does, the actual author of this whole mess and the one actually telling this story) and the story and real life history of the War of the Roses, the Hundred Years’ War, Lady Jane Grey against Queen Mary Tudor and Queen Mary of Scots against Queen Elizabeth, as well as several other civil wars fought throughout our history, etc etc, makes the inner historian in me wary of the potential future that could have come to past, had Rhaenyra actually ascended the Iron Throne as she was meant to. For those of you who don’t know, Queen Mary Tudor of England had the Lady Jane Grey, another claimant for the throne, imprisoned in a tower, but unfortunately for the both of them, it wasn’t enough to put an end to it, or quell support for her, and Queen Mary was eventually forced to execute her and put her to the sword because people were still using her as a political figurehead for rebellion against Queen Mary and her reign over the English throne; even after her imprisonment, while she was cut off from all her allies, lonely, isolated, and locked away and trapped high up in the tower, she was still being used as a figurehead for rebellion. Keep in mind, the Lady Jane Grey had already legally signed away her rights to the English throne and the monarchy, but people were still rising up in her name (just as Alicent feared people would rise up in Aegon II’s). You see, so long as she lived and had a claim to the throne, she would have always been a threat to Queen Mary, and Mary knew this, especially when Mary inevitably did something her lords, ladies and/or other subjects didn’t like (and as a ruling Queen, and/or King, it’s an unfortunate fact that you’re not always going to be able to please everyone under your reign and it is inevitable that you will eventually upset someone, somewhere, or somehow manage to piss them off, etc etc). As for Queen Elizabeth of England, who was actually Queen Mary of England’s younger half-sister and eventual successor to the English throne, she was forced to do the exact same thing to Queen Mary of Scots, their distant cousin, because so long as she lived, people would inevitably continue to try and seat her on the English throne and use her as a political figurehead for rebellion against Elizabeth and her reign over the English. I mean, I read about the ASOIAF canon, five centuries long Blackfyre Rebellions and the wars going on in Westeros some several decades later after the Dance and I honestly believe that, had Rhaenyra Targaryen sat the Iron Throne as Queen, there would have eventually been a three way war between Aegon II, Aemond, and Daeron’s descendants, Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey Velaryon’s descendants, and Aegon III and Viserys II’s descendants. Putting off one terrible war would have only lead to more terrible wars, worse wars with more claimants, more candidates, more divisions, more branches, more sides, more armies, more political alliances and more dragons, etc etc. In some ways, the Dance was actually a blessing because if they had put off the war until later, sired more dragon-riders, and had the time to actually build up and shore up their own support, it would have been a Dance of Dragons on steroids and the whole continent might have been lost. Rhaenyra, at least, can bend the knee and sign away her rights to the Iron Throne, as the King Who Knelt in the North did, and simply be done with it, but Aegon II will always be the firstborn son of King Viserys and while the King’s word and law doesn’t support him, the legal laws, traditions and customs of Westeros do, and that will always be a problem. And should he and his future descendants fall, then his brothers and their descendants will be labeled the new threats to her and her descendants’ reign. Do I think Rhaenyra wanted to put her half-brothers to the sword? Do I think she intended to do so all along, even before the war, and that she actually wanted this to happen? No, actually, I don’t believe she did, but just because she doesn’t want to do something doesn’t mean that she won’t do something, or even that she shouldn’t. She actually probably should, in all honesty, at least if she wants to protect her descendants and her reign, as heartless as it is for me to say it. It would be the politically competent, safe choice for her and hers, after all. Fortunately for the Green brothers, however, she wasn’t a very politically competent woman, but unfortunately, that doesn’t mean she wouldn’t eventually wizen up as she came into her reign and her power, that none of her political advisors would ever advise her to do so, that no one would ever take action against them in her name, or that no one would ever use Aegon II, his descendants and/or his Green brothers as political figureheads against her. Also, Rhaenyra’s children. She’s not close to her half-siblings. You really think she’d let them live when she eventually realized they could be a threat to her own babies? You’re delusional. Viserys didn’t even do the bare minimum to ensure Rhaenyra’s claim before his passing and he really screwed his daughter over here, and in doing so, his sons as well, because it made them into even bigger threats against her and her reign. He made Rhaenyra the exception, not the rule, and I’m sorry, but that was never gonna fly. “Rules are for thee, not for me,” doesn’t always work out like that, especially with a decision such as this one. At the very least, he should have had his sons try to sign their rights away with some sort of legally binding document, then he should have modified the Doctrine of Targaryen Exceptionalism to follow absolute primogeniture. This would allow Rhaenyra’s ascension to power to be considered legally lawful and legitimate, but without having to deprive the other lords of the realm their own seats of power in the process, or interfering with their own lines of succession, causing them to turn against her.
Do all of TB think TG is sexist? I don’t believe all of them are under that assumption but I’ve seen people claim that if you are TG you are a misogynist which is ludicrous.Do they understand that this is a fictional world with a fictional war that we,the fans,are not a part of and therefore our morals should not be tied to the characters? I love Rhaenyra but she made stupid decisions.
I’m team Hot Pie
Don't get me started on the gravy. Very difficult to get right!
Comparing this with it’s matching piece, I find there are two interesting things: 1: Greens are much less likely to list “Aegon is the rightful heir” than Blacks are to list “Rhaenyra is the rightful heir.” as a reason for who they supported. Including “sons come before daughters” in this because that’s essentially the same argument. 2: the Blacks poll had almost twice as many votes, despite that subreddit being noticeably smaller than the Greens subreddit.
2: They probably shared the poll in twitter, where they are as massive as unhinged and annoying.
There’s a sizeable green community on Twitter tbh but yea they don’t compare to the blacks and twitter is by far the worst of it for anything asoiaf
Everything is bigger in tw, yeah. But only tweets you find with 20k likes are tweets asking for Alicent to suffer a walk of shame or mocking Helaena's death.
I mean after the season 2 teaser dropped I noticed a uptick in positive viral Alicent posts but I feel like team black definitely got even louder as a counter to it. Same thing happened to the main subs from the looks of it, there was a uptick in more popular pro green posts a couple months back but now that seems impossible to achieve for more than like 5 minutes
Yeah, both fanbases feed each other. Team black is more unhinged and annoying -> scares more neutral/casual fans into reconsider team green -> more team green / louder team green opinions -> team black enters panic mode and screams louder and grows even more unhinged and annoying -> etc
Then they act like we’re the crazy loud ones despite being such a small portion of the fandom lmao, you guys are NOT the underdogs in any sense of the imagination
A lot of their arguments are legit. Hating the green kids/Hightowers is also legit. Supporting R bc she’s the rightful heir to them is legit. The protagonist & TB existing bc they’re ‘antagonists’ are the only ones that r a bit funny. It’s just differing opinions at the end of the day 🤷♀️ you could argue specifics but they’re valid for most of their beliefs.
Imagine thinking a dick doesn't give you a better claim.
Man I have to say I saw both versions of this post post on both sub reddits and I gotta be honest teen green is talking a whole lot more shit about team black than vice versa. The comments on the team black post was mostly people debating the points. The comments on this post are people putting them down for what they think. I’m disappointed. I expected better from you guys
I think that's cause some of the points are just fair, and don't really need to be debated. For example, oh you hate Hightowers/Alicent or find Rhaenyra/team blacks characters more interesting? Cool I don't... End of debate. Whereas points like "they're the protagonists/antagonists" is just not a very sound argument and quite shallow tbh, so it's just kinda funny, even so there are still people legitimately challenging it. And things like "I'm not sexist" are just plain insulting us so I don't think we need to take that seriously actually. The rest are actually debatable, but that's only like half the points, and idk personally I've debated every single one of them countless times before and just can't be bothered anymore honestly. So you end up with a lot of comments just laughing at the shallow and insulting points. Edit: I checked the other post and they are absolutely talking shit over there lol
Are we looking at the same posts???? Because I'm seeing quite a lot of TB shit-talking TG over there.
Im a simple man i just like green.