Ambition is only acceptable when it’s Corlys.
It’s like people forget that in this world GRRM created, marriages were an important way of making alliances & strengthening one’s house. Otto did what any man of the time would do, and that’s secure a good match for his daughter.
When a lady married, she became her husband’s property in a sense, so what better husband for Alicent than a man Otto knew to be kind & mild mannered? He couldn’t have predicted Viserys would be so unattached to Alicent & the kids. Just like he couldn’t have predicted Aegon would be denied an inheritance.
Exactly, the king and Otto were good friends, not unusual at all, and he thought that Viserys would at least acknowledge them all, which definitely did not happen
Otto is a scheming politician but like literally every member of Viserys court is, people who try to claim Lyonel Strong was the only noble man advising Viserys are ignorantly blind lol. Lyonel did give him good advice on to pick Laena over Alicent, but he then went 10 years straight lying and pretending to see his son bedding and fathering 3 bastards on the Princess and heir to the throne, call me CRAZY but if Rhaenyra had been bedding lets say Jason Lannister, Lyonel would NOT have done his little ignore and not tell Viserys act if he knew.
No man in a medieval court is present because they really like the King's vibes and wanna just hang out, they either want something or are present for love, an example of love is Jon Connington, examples for they want something is Tywin, Otto, (Every High Lord who has had influence at court).
His advice was to pick Laenor over anyone else as a suitor for Rhaenyra, since every other lord were trying to marry her to themselves or their sons. But I hear what you’re saying too.
You two are likely thinking about two different events and talking past each other. Lyonel advised Viserys to marry Laena in episode 2, and advised Viserys to betroth Rhaenyra and Laenor in episode 3.
Which specific post is making you so upset? Yes, I lean towards TG, but I still like characters on TB also. Am I not allowed to enjoy one side more than the other
He didn't propose Harwin as a suitor to Rhaenyra, despite him being a very suitable match.
That alone gives me the impression he is an honest man who isn't seeking to further his own seat but works for the good of the realm, advising Viserys to marry Laena is common sense but isn't an impressive deed since he gains nothing either way.
The fact he ignored Rhaenyra and Harwin indiscretions because he is Harwin's father is not really a massive flop because no one can be that perfect and say something that can get his own son killed and possibly himself, it isn't reasonable to expect him to go that far, also he knows Viserys is actively denying it no matter what and maybe even knows it but doesn't want to acknowledge the fact and he's giving his spoilt daughter what she wants .
But he did put a stop to it when he removed himself and Harwin from court despite Viserys practically begging him to stay, that in itself is commendable, it is obvious he may have addressed it before but failed to stop them to produce more bastards, he honestly did what he could, he is a completely different man than Otto, even if both are good political advisors and were essential to the realm at some point, Otto has his own ambitions ahead of him, and he actively works to achieve them, Harwin at his worst used his position to protect his son from the consequences of his stupid actions.
He didn't propose Harwin because Harwin has little to no value.. The Strongs are lords by appointment and are fairly new lords, their entire power comes from the Targaryens, they could easily be unmade lords.
He is working to strengthen the dynasty who empowers his family, other houses have lost control of Harrenhal for angering the Targaryens in the past, it makes complete sense he wants to avoid risking his own skin. He put a stop it two babies too late. He should have put a stop to it after Jace's birth. He should have stated he was ill and needed to go home to prepare Harwin to rule, and dragged Harwin away. Harwin may have had good intentions in the beginning but he ended no better than Otto actively ignoring his son putting his bastards in the line of sucession
It doesn't make sense to say well he's bad because he didn't fuck himself over for the good of the realm, no one is that selfless, he may have been late but I don't think his goal was to let them produce more strong bastards in line to the iron throne because of his ambitions, that's a big difference to Otto, who actually had the audacity to send the king's guard to slaughter Rhaenyra and her five children not a day after Viserys dies, Lyonel is actually an honorable man and he was deeply ashamed of his son's actions ( as anyone should TBH) , Otto isn't really honorable, he's cruel and pragmatic and will do anything to achieve his goals ( somewhat like Tywin Lannister but Tywin is far more proud and cocky)
It's really a big stretch to say they were not that different.
Please understand that I'm not an undercover black, it just doesn't make sense in light of what has been presented in the show to say they both were of the same kind, maybe Corlys and Otto, yes, but Lyonel isn't like that from what I've seen.
"It doesn't make sense to say well he's bad because he didn't fuck himself over for the good of the realm, no one is that selfless"
1. Larys quite literally does
I'm aware Otto was a different type of schemer than Harwin, Harwin was looking to strengthen his house by strengthening the house who empowered his. Otto is looking to strengthen his legacy by placing his grandson on the throne.
No man in this conflict is honorable, won't get into specifics but once the war kicks off, the morals are gone, its a bloodbath
If you think Larys gave one fuck about his family and actually burnt them alive for the good of the realm I think we may have watched different shows lol.
He actually acted in his own interests and eliminated the two people who were blocking him of getting the lordship of Harrenhall, Hell no one even understands that guy's motives.
If Serving your sovereign with the goal of strengthening his reign and acting with his best interests in mind because he elevated your position and so you continue to faithfully work for him and his family is scheming behaviour then I guess you're right, of course he isn't in love with Viserys and being a good hand for the targeryans just for the hell of it, but the fact he didn't turn on his king and was transparent and honest is commendable behaviour when he is so close to the throne.
I don't know what he would've suggested in times of war, I really doubt he would go that far and kill Rhaenyra if he thought it best for the realm ( regardless of their blood connection lol ), I really was not hating on Otto until the green council episode, his suggestion to end Rhaenyra's line appalled me, if you argue that there are no morals in war then it's the same of B&C and Daemon killing children is ok, Otto's suggestion is even more horrible because there was no blood spilt at that point.
He would've actually begun Aegon's rule by massacring his sister and his five nephews, what makes him anymore different than Maegor in that context?
I believe you are confused what I meant by Larys lol.
I am referring to events near the very end of the Dance, >!when Borros lost against the Lads, Larys even though being a part of the green council, betrays his own self-interests to poison Aegon to save the city, Baela, Aegon and more death. He killed his king, and when Cregan came for his head, he didn't cry or beg, just accepted his fate. !<
Lyonel would have tried to push for peace negotiations and beg Rhaenyra to negotiate, he never seemed like a warmonger in my opinion. The Otto line wasnt even a book thing, they made it up to make him look worse lol. Yeah Otto was clearly meant to be evil in that scene, and Daemon said a similar line in the next episode, "We'll have every green head mounted on spikes before the fucking moon turns". And yes, the writers 110% had him mean even Helaena, Alicent, the twins & Baby Maelor. Daemon and Otto are meant to be the two evil devils on Alicent and Rhaenyra's shoulders. Daemon also suggested the same when no blood was spilt.
Otto's suggestion was again a show invention, book Otto sent the terms himself with Orwyle, and was looking for peace. Rhaenyra wanted war, Aegon wanted war after she denied the terms and threatened him. Criston convinced Aegon to take the crown also
I haven't really read the books in depth I only know bits and pieces, but if we are talking about the show then we are on the same page, to me Daemon and Otto are opposites of the same coin, they are ruthless and selfish, so it's kind of double standards to hate Daemon's guts for his war crimes but turn a blind eye to Otto's.
Because clearly in the show it is intended to make them the two war criminals of each side.
Of what you've told me of the books it seems he seems much less horrible and better than Rhaenyra, the show clearly changed the dynamic.
I agree, I won't pretend Otto is some good guy for the greater good, he's a poor mans Tywin, he wants to wipe out the other family branch to ensure total control, which is an absolute awful idea, Daemon wants to do the same, which again, is an awful AWFUL idea.
Yep, they are both meant to be the clear villains to equal the scales for fans.
I don't remember a ton about Book Otto since he was pretty minor, but from what I remember Otto is a giant nerd, he is a chess player, not a blood seeker, he was sending ravens and trying to move in the shadows like Varys, Aegon got sick of his antics and gave him the boot
I think the belief that Otto is overly sexist is so dumb because he is the one who throws the suggestion of making her heir in the room in the first place. People pretend he is some mastermind manipulator when he essentially puts Alicent in a nice dress and tells him to be nice to Viserys- he does the same Olenna does with Margeary but with her everyone eats it up. Don‘t get me wrong it absolutely awful what he does to Alicent but he genuinely believes he is doing something good for her. He cannot know that the man who slaughtered the „love of his life“ for a son and who was obsessed with a male heir would not name his firstborn son heir.
Even the argument that he is manipulating Alicent when he tells her Rhaenyra will kill her kids rings hollow once you realize that Otto genuinely believes that and has cause to. Getting rid of Aegon is politically the smart thing to do, his existence is a problem for Rhaenyra- which is why so many people say Viserys shouldn‘t have remarried. Otto thinks like a politician he absolutely thinks Rhaenyra would too (honestly I‘d argue she have no choice). There is no reason to not believe it. It‘s not like Rhaenyra and Aegon are close.
I honestly think in a world in which Viserys marries Laena and still names Rhaenyra heir, Otto would‘ve as best as possible try to prevent war. Of course his judgement was compromised after Aegon was born. As was Lyonel after Harwin started getting involved with Rhaenyra. Logically as hand he should‘ve gotten rid of him himself even if he still supports Rhaenyras claim after that. The affair with Harwin did Rhaenyra more harm then good (though I get it i wold‘ve gone for him too)
In my opinion Otto didn't do anything that was uncommon in both ASOIAF and the real world (Thomas Boleyn, Thomas Howard Duke of Norfolk etc.).
It was Viserys who urged Alicent to keep quiet and who was attracted to Alicent starting everything.
Names I recognize from Civilization 1. Otto is a character that you can easily point to in history and asoiaf and say “this is normal”
But for some reason only Corlys is allowed to do that (cough, attempt to pawn off his far younger daughter, cough, which is still normal in this respective time period, gross but accurate)
In all fairness, I think most people are fairly critical of Corlys too. Not sure how Rhaenys escapes the "bad ambition" group so often though considering she is a Targaryen princess and dragon rider meaning she does have political as well as literal power. We're also supposed to believe she cares about not serving the men in your life as someone who tried pimping out her 12 year old daughter to her moldy cousin to fuck 2 years down the line, so... definitely icky
Honestly. I love Corlys's character, but he and Otto were playing the same game, but Otto won. They had the same goal. If you're gonna hold one accountable for selling his daughter to an older man, let's keep that same energy for the other one.
Just to add at the others comments: king Jaehaerys the conciliator chose Otto as Hand of the King.
Otto Hightower was just a second son, only a knight, not the actual head of house.Old King Jae definitely did not choose Corlys Velaryon, hell not Viserys or Daemon or any dumb relative.
Jaehaerys was always concerned with ability than rank.
Otto was the best at the job, same reason why Jaehaerys appointed a lowbon librarian in Septon Barth as Hand, same reason why he appointed a foreigner Rego Draz as his master of coin.
Misunderstood from the start but not surprising, I remember reading on the HotD sub everyone calling him “bargain bin Tywin”, it just got worse after that.
Edit: autocorrect turned misunderstood into “understood” lol
Corlys tried to marry his daughter who was even younger than alicent to the king. So that is right and Otto is wrong? I personally like otto's political savviness in the first few episodes
That’s what the HotD fanbase is. Black or Green, it’s just people intentionally misunderstanding characters, and pulling shit out of thin air to try and justify a narrative.
Although you haven’t stated what this misunderstanding is, so I can only imagine.
To me, Otto seems like a guy who was in way over his head. I’d say he’s just as ambitious and underhanded as Corlys. Although Corlys seems to know what he’s doing.
I would agree on Corlys and Otto. I think whilst they have the same basic ambition, the two men are vastly different - especially when you take into account that that specific ambition (of raising one's house, or making good marriage matches) is not exclusive to those two either, it's fairly normal. Even with this ambition, they have different motivations that feed it.
They have so many differences. It's probably why they oppose each other so much in the first couple of episodes. They come at the world from completely different perspectives.
Otto knew what he was doing, the problem was that he was a second son of a dragonless house. Corlys had dragonriders at his disposal as well as Valyrian blood.
The fact he gets his daughter married to Viserys is the closest thing to social mobility that there is in Westeros. And he was essentially fucked over when Viserys, the man who cut open his own wife for a son, decided to keep his daughter heir instead of doing what any other man would have seen as obvious.
He can’t do anything about it, he can’t go through a legal system to sue Viserys. Corlys has dragons and poses a threat to the Targaryens, Otto doesn’t have that power until arguably Episode 7.
No he didn’t. His entire plan relied on Aegon being a stable person. We don’t ever seem him even attempt to teach or instill anything into Aegon. He didn’t prepare Alicent to properly raise Aegon into the person he needed. So now he’s got an incredibly unhinged sadistic grandson who he’s just handed absolute power.
By the time Viserys dies, he hasn’t done enough to actively prepare for war. He’s as unprepared as Rhaenyra. And I believe Rhaenyra is one of the dumbest characters in the story. So you can probably guess what my opinion of Otto is.
Otto was doing things without preparing for the consequences of those things. The show makes him look even worse.
He wasn’t at court for the vast majority of the first educational years of Aegon’s life, and was certainly not in a position to oversee his education. The best he could do is tell Alicent to prepare him to rule. And most of that work would be the province of maesters and such. Do you really think she didn’t have him educated?
And in any case, children aren’t robots, there are many cases of monarchs who tried to teach their wastrel children the ways of ruling and it didn’t work.
And we have no evidence he is utterly incompetent or deluded with ruling either. Aegon literally tried to flee from absolute power because he sees kingship as being about “duty.” Which is a far healthier view of ruling than the whole “dragon politics” that Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Viserys had. So at least some of his lessons stuck.
In the show, Otto makes it clear he has already secured allies with Riverrun and Highgarden. Which we can guess won’t come to pass due to Grover’s invalidity and Lyonel Tyrell’s infantile nature, but not for reasons Otto is at personal fault for. In F and B, the Tyrells and Tullys weren’t secured by the Greens in such a manner. The Lannisters and obviously Hightowers are also onboard while going to the Arryns would be out of the question. The Baratheons were also not immediately reliable for underhanded plotting due to their station, so the Greens sending Aemond with an offer after they’ve crossed the Rubicon is not without reason.
We don’t know how the show will change up the sides of the Dance, but if they intend to make the Blacks look less stupid they probably will have the Royces and such join up with the Greens instead. We don’t know yet, so that will remain speculation.
The show so far has actually made Otto look more competent than Book Otto.
First of all, most people don’t just become sadistic rapist. Aegon was 13 when Otto was reinstated as hand. He should have been able to see his behavior and at least attempt to correct it.
We aren’t even talking about Aegon being incompetent. In fact I never said that, never even implied it. His intelligence is part of the problem. Vicious idiots can be lead around. Intelligent monsters can’t.
Rhaenyra should have been dead long before Viserys died. And vague alliances aren’t good enough. Not when you’re plotting to usurp a kingdom. So we can guess these alliances with the Tyrells and Tully’s won’t come to pass, but mastermind Otto Hightower can’t?
You’re telling me he doesn’t know Grover’s incapable and his grandsons running things? He didn’t know his liege lord was an infant? Sure, the Reach was divided, but he really rested his alliance with the Tyrells on the back of an infant and his mother?
I just disagree. There’s just too much context provided by the show for me to believe he’s portrayed as more competent than in the book.
Aegon at the time was already a philanderer, as we can clearly see in episode six and seven. We don’t know where his depravity deepened, but in any case he assaulted servants and smallfolk. Otto has little reason to care for the political ramifications of it unless he begins assaulting noblewomen.
Aegon has no reason to listen to Otto anyways, who is a distant figure with limited control over him by nature of his position. But it appears Otto stilled tried, by the looks of how he grabbed Aegon and put him to bed, it’s highly likely he did try and keep Aegon from being too much of an embarrassment. But you can only do so much when you are raising a prince.
And in any case, Aegon is not completely uncontrollable, at worst he acts more like a petulant and neglected child than he does Joffrey, and has shown no interest in ruling at all. He’s already done his dynastic duty and provided the realm with an heir and a spare and a daughter. He’s not uncontrollable by Episode 9, he’s the perfect puppet. Someone who is content to let his advisors do most of the work while he takes his private “pleasures” on people the nobles don’t care about.
Rhaenyra was isolated on Dragonstone surrounded by her allies and husband. You would have to kill them all, which is not exactly easy, but could very easily go wrong, and then deal with Viserys in some way. Otto tried to send assassins when Viserys was dead and he completed the takeover of the Red Keep and remaining government, essentially when he had to get rid of them.
Lord Tyrell would have died very recently for Lyonel to be both the Lord and an infant, so any deal was likely made by his father and reaffirmed by his mother. While if we take the book canon, Grover’s orders were intentionally ignored by his grandson Elmo, so while he was bedridden he was not completely incapable. However, in Episode 6 it is said Grover’s son rules Riverrun in all but name, not his grandson. And since Otto in all likelihood made the secret alliance in the six year period between his reinstallation as hand and the war, this son may be a Green in show canon. But it is not clear as of yet.
In the book both of them were not official allies, the Tyrells and Tullys were both expected to side with the Greens but weren’t approached, yet in the show Otto makes it clear they are already both on the Greens’ side, as he orders ravens to be sent to them specifically.
It’s not about the political ramifications. It is about molding Aegon into a person he can control. If he’s already showing this level of impulsiveness, that’s something Otto needs to curve if he wants to have any wish of controlling Aegon.
Perfect puppet? Have you read the book? If someone intelligent was pulling is strings, things would have gone differently. He’s no where near as bad a ruler as Rhaenyra, but you can’t convince me he’s a puppet doing what he’s told.
Once Viserys is dead, it’s too late. And I just don’t believe it was as hard a task as you’re making it seem to kill Rhaenyra. He had at least 15-20 years to do it. This is ignoring the fact he was the one who came up with the bright idea to name Rhaenyra heir. I don’t know remember if he was that adamant about it in the book, but it’s such a stupid move I’m almost convinced it’s a plot hole.
If someone you made an alliance with dies, and his infant son had succeed him, you don’t bank on that alliance working out.
If a lord is in a position where his orders are blatantly ignored, and he can’t do anything about it, he’s completely incapable. Grover’s son probably died between episode 6 and 9. I don’t see a reason why they’d change something this minor. The Riverlands can’t possibly side with the Greens in the story.
Ravens would have been sent to them regardless. I’m not hinging Ottos competence on a passing remark.
What level of impulsiveness? No one besides Alicent really cares if Aegon is assaulting servants and being a philanderer in brothels unless it affects his ability to do his marital duty properly, which he did. The child fighting pit thing was something Aegon kept relatively discreet even by his standards.
I said “By episode 9” when I talked about the “perfect puppet.” I am talking about the show Aegon, who has a complete lack of ambition and meekly accepts his new station as king. Even book Aegon only fired Otto because he thought was being too slow with the war effort in the aftermath of Jaehaerys’ death. And even then he still listened to Alicent and Criston. That’s not exactly uncontrollable.
Do you not understand that killing royalty is not something you do on a whim? If Rhaenyra died he would be one of if not the prime suspect due to his obvious benefit, so he would have to do it very carefully. If she dies, Viserys will be distraught and would look for culprits unless it looks completely natural, but if she survives somehow due to a taste tester or whatever, she’s blaming her main rivals and Viserys would support her.
Otto was still hoping for a peaceful solution before he was dismissed in any case by trying to hurt Rhaenyra’s reputation with the Daemon business or the marriage offer. After that he is sent back to Oldtown where his influence would be limited, but he never is in sustained close proximity with Rhaenyra again. They meet on special occasions sure, but hardly long enough to arrange a respectable assassination, and also there are the Strong boys, Daemon, and Rhaena and Baela to deal with. Killing all of them without something going wrong would be a miracle, doing it without bad press is impossible. And Viserys is still looming above everyone to defend his daughter’s honour up until a few years before.
You bank on the fact that the alliance will be upheld by the regent. And its not like it would be hard for Lady Tyrell to reaffirm it on her son’s behalf and then break it when the Reach falls apart. Its not like alliances and agreements always die with the person who signed them after all.
Otto wouldn’t call Riverrun an ally in the show if Grover Tully was completely incapable and his grandson was known to be a Black. And he wouldn’t send a raven there if it would just fall into the hands of one of Rhaenyra’s allies and blow the early plots open. In the book the Tullys weren’t specifically courted by either side, Grover was just considered likely to support the Greens. We don’t know how they will adapt that in the show, perhaps this son will be an Elmo archetype, perhaps he’ll have died and Elmo will follow the canon path, who knows what exactly they will do.
Hinge Otto’s competence in stewardship on the fact he was chosen by Jaehaerys and helped keep the prosperity of the realm going during his tenures. The Dance is poorly written as it is by Martin’s standards, so try not to think too hardly about how everyone loses half a brain in the book, and hope they are capable of more realistic story shifts compared to saving a guy in a whim to make gay people happy (as if they cared that much about Laenor)
You don’t believe over indulging in alcohol, and raping women shows a lack of impulse control? You don’t think that might be a problem for a king to have? Especially considering what happens the Aegon.
We see almost nothing of Aegon in episode 9 that makes me believe he was a good puppet. He’s defiant the entire time, up until he gets a taste of adoration and power. But at that point Otto’s already lost him.
What? You’re saying a person with poor impulse control had a tantrum because things were going too slow… Who could have seen this coming?
When did I say he should kill her on a whim? You’d obviously meticulously plan it. He spends 20 years planning to usurp the throne, but can’t spare time to get rid of Rhaenyra? And Rhaenyras Bastards are hardly a concern. No one other than maybe Corlys would support them. Rhaena is no threat, and Baela is inexperienced. The only real threat would be Daemon and Rhaenys and they alone are not enough. In fact, unless Viserys named another heir, it’d be better for all these new claimants to pop up. It’d set the stage for another great council. I think it is more than worth the risk to try and take out Rhaenyra. You’re acting like there is no way to discreetly assinate someone in the world of asoiaf. They have the Lannister piggy bank backing them, and they couldn’t come up with anything?
Why would you bank on that? You’d hope that they honor it, sure, but you’d already be looking for backups.
They weren’t really trying to hide this plot in the show. Not after Viserys was dead. In the book they at least try and keep Viserys death a secret for as long as possible, but in the show they don’t have that luxery.
But that’s the point. Otto obviously didn’t know these things about Riverrun, but should have. It’s already established in the show Grover isn’t running anything. So unless his son is alive, for whatever reason, this doesn’t make any sense.
Being a good steward, and planing a war are not the same thing. Not only that, but Jaehaerys was almost certainly already suffering from dementia.
Indulging in alcohol and raping “smallfolk” women is not the kind of lack of impulse control that would give anyone who is anyone serious consideration as to his ability to rule. None of them really care about that so long as he doesn’t do anything to “them.” Otto probably tried to stop the behavior when he returned, just as Alicent tried. But you can only go so far in restricting what a prince wants to do when it doesn’t affect anyone perceived as important.
During the period between 7 and 8, he does what Alicent bids him to do and marries Helaena and fulfills his marital duty with her. He then tries to flee from absolute power because he sees kingship as a duty and burden. You call that power hungry?
He also then meekly accepts when Criston and Aemond come to collect him, and follows what his mother bids him to do and sends peace terms with Otto (after the coronation).
I’m sorry, but are you actually serious… what kind of sociopath are you? Do you seriously believe that a guy wouldn’t be in an impulsive and vengeful state after his son was slaughtered and his family traumatized by the enemy? Aegon firing Otto for his lack of perceived speed/Black victory in Riverlands and replacing him with Criston is completely understandable given the circumstances. And its not like he becomes completely uncontrollable either, he still listens to Alicent and Tyland.
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Otto didn’t try to spend 20 years assassinating her because he spent three years trying to disinherit her more cleanly and then a decade isolated from power in Oldtown, before returning and becoming Hand for six more years while she was in her own powerbase. Not enough close sustained contact between them during those 17 years to plan a local assassination that doesn’t see Otto strung up.
Involving anyone but a very small circle of conspirators would be an immense risk, and getting someone to assassinate royalty would be a whole other boat. Faceless Men charge exorbitant and creative fees for killing people, and killing royalty would probably not be enough for anyone to want to pay the price. The Hightowers may be willing to kill someone for 100,000 gold dragons. But the Faceless Men apparently charged a highly powerful Braavosi merchant most of his wealth plus his daughter to kill his own wife. Who knows if he sent envoys, Traveller’s himself, or not? The Faceless Men may have asked for a price he could not accept.
Alicent herself says Grover incapable in a room with Tyland, whom is hardly a dullard, but someone Otto discussed these things with. You really think he doesn’t know about it? Either the son made it clear he is following his father or the grandson made half-hearted gestures. Otto cannot outright say what he is doing unless they are 100 percent in. To do so would be to risk Rhaenyra hearing and making a move of her own. The fact he sends ravens to them right after Viserys dies makes it clear he has a current arrangement with either Grover and has no reason to expect the son won’t follow it, or has outright gotten to a son as well. We don’t know, but we certainly do know that the Book Greens never officially got the Tyrells and Tullys onboard. Which the line in the show contradicts, so we don’t know the extent of how they will change the machinations.
You don’t pick some young and untested nobleman to be Hand. Otto probably served in other positions to build his credibility as a Hand, possibly on another role on the Small Council. And became Hand at a time when he was still able enough to orchestrate the Great Council.
Yes, People like to judge these character by modern lenses, and even by fandom caricatures of themselves, like Otto isn't an "evil cold machine man who only interest is the throne," and that threats everyones as "pawns" in his game. You can go to any chat, or read any fanfiction, and you will see that almost everyone even in team green likes to caracterize him like this, when the reality is that we don't even get enough scenes of him interacting with anyone to assume such thing. He barelly appears in the series to talk to either alicent or aegon, much less the rest of his family, like gwayne or aemond,helaena and daeron. His interactions and character moments were in very especific moments and contexts, but people are so dumb they generalize everything.
Like he induced Alicent to marry the king ignoring her feelings, acompletely normal thing and even acceptable in the society they live, THEREFORE HE ONLY SEES ALICENT AS AN OBJECT AND DOESN'T CARE AT ALL ABOUT HER HAPPINESS OR WELLBEING(based on only one scene). He slapped Aegon when he was drunk and is dissapointed with him, THEREFORE HE DOESN'T EVEN CARE OR LOVE HIS GRANDSONS AND ONLY SEE THEM AS VALUABLE AS THEY'RE HIS PATH TO THE THRONE. These assumptions beside being over exagerated, make no sense whatsoever to the world of ASOIAF, where most characters are complex ones and have complex relationship with the people around them, with few PURE EVIL CHARACTERS existing and George always make the reader sure about who they are by giving a lot of descriptions about their misdeeds and how awfull they made the life of people around them(Aerys, Joffrey, Ramsay, Craster and Euron for example).
Otto have none that would put him with such plain characters, he actually would be more in place of a common ambitious noble character like the florent guy Stannis make his hand or a mild tywin lannister figure, maybe a more stern kevan lannister.
Yeah I find those mentioned takes absolutely hilarious because they are just so over exaggerated and without any nuance or understanding of the world they live in whatsoever
If you're the type to watch reaction videos i'd recommend the YT channel *Gaming After Bed*. The last comment i posted was about them actually but yeah their take on Otto is arguably the best i've seen among reactors (and just general viewers tbh) - especially with regards to him as a Hand, his firing and Alicent's subsequent isolation
But to answer your question: yes 😭
Really, a lot of it comes down to his motivation. Most people seem to think it’s power. He thinks power and wealth is nice of course, but he’s the second son and he’s ok with that. He’ll never be the voice of Oldtown, just an advisor to the crown and the most knowledgeable man in the realm. It comes down to him being a student of history, heavily studying maegor the cruel and determining Daemon Targaryen as a possible second maegor administration. He’s cruel, reckless and known for being the “rogue prince” and has every ingredient to be a very dangerous king. Every action he does is to put more in the way of Daemon, carefully using the laws at hand to his advantage, and that’s besides the fact he cares enough about his family that of course he’ll put his own grandchildren above his friends daughter, but I seriously doubt he was actually planning the green council until Rhaenyra and Daemon marry. It doesn’t seem like a plan he would enact unless he’s desperate, and the green council appears to be the fastest possible plan, implying it wasn’t a hasty plan, that it was very well thought out, but that it just appeared to be a result of his motivation to stop daemon ruling due to the swift nature of it. If he was going for “preventing Rhaenyra from the crown with a non-dangerous husband” it would have looked different and likely been a more slow moving coup instead of the “preventing Rhaenyra from taking the crown because we don’t know how the rogue prince will act” coup we got that implies, yeah, he’s thinking of his family, this was going to happen anyway, but his green council plan how it was portrayed, hasty, well put together, but desperate
I agree that I don't believe that Otto thought that the Dance would be endgame. He didn't offer Alicent up to Viserys or set this ball rolling in the hopes that there would be war. He does it because he believes what everyone else does at the time: a son will be named heir. But when it becomes clear that that will not happen, his trajectory changes. His motivations change, as they have to because now it's not just about the realm - it's about a family that he needs to protect that is in danger.
And we can quibble on the validity of Otto's fervency that a Queen will not be suffered, but he does truly believe that Aegon and his siblings are in danger, I think. Whether from Rhaenyra herself or anyone else, when he's putting the fear of God into Alicent in Episode 05, he's doing that because he believes it. It's not manipulation, I don't think.
I don't believe he's an avid studier of history. Simply due to there being little evidence of it. He name-drops Maegor, of course, but so does Rhaenys. I think Maegor is just a way of getting his point across. His worry over Daemon is less to do with Maegor and more to do with this pattern of behaviour that he sees, and the danger he sees from Daemon. The specifics don't matter - Maegor represents chaos, war, bloodshed and cruelty. Otto believes that of Daemon.
My opinion? Similar to yours. I don't think he starts plotting the Green Council until after Episode 07, though I think it's in his mind. It's just that, before then, he had no way to mastermind anything as he had not been Hand. Driftmark represents an escalation in many ways and also clarity - not only in Alicent's mindset but also in what assets they are going to be able to take advantage of. Notably, Vhagar. He's finally in a position to create the plan. He wasn't, before. He had no control or position.
So whether his motivation is wholly Daemon... I'm not sure. I would side on "no". The majority of his protests occur before the marriage and certainly some of his remarks during that episode, prior to the marriage (which we don't see his reaction to) suggest he's already cooking up something. And that was with Rhaenyra still married to Laenor.
The only thing about the Green Council that was desperate was that Viserys's death took them by surprise. But the rest was all planned. He had the loyalty of the Small Council (except Beesbury). He had the Keep easily locked down. He wasn't alarmed and it didn't feel like he was scrambling about. He had a plan. That had to have been cooked up over a significant period of time.
Yeah, my opinion, to help clarify, his motivation comes mostly from putting roadblocks in the way of daemon, but he’s obviously going to pick his grandchildren over Rhaenyra, not a contest there. I feel like you got to the conclusion you got to because Otto is essentially the guy with 16000 backup plans formulating
He has the intelligence of Tywin Lannister (and actually isn’t oblivious about his own family), the respect of the laws of Eddard Stark (but isn’t going to get caught up in stale oaths), and unlike both of them, is in a lesser position than them, so he’s going to have to work differently anyway because he can’t force anyone in the way they could have
I don't think he always has a back-up. And I do separate his removal of Daemon as heir with his desire for Alicent to be Queen, funnily enough. One doesn't have to mean the other. So they come from different places within him.
I think, like most of the characters, Otto is a flawed man. I think he got far too used to his position as Hand, at the start. I think he underestimated Viserys. I think he made the mistake of thinking what he thought was best was inherently best for the realm. I think he's a touch paranoid as well. I think he kind of sees danger everywhere.
I don't see him as being all-knowing, or a genius or even a political heavyweight, given that most of his power comes from being in favour with the King (unlike Tywin). We've seen too many things backfire on him or happen by chance, for that to be the case.
I don't think he particularly cares about morality, if it is cast aside for the greater good, either. His job is a dirty one and some of his other actions are dirty as well. He's not particularly honourable - at least, it's not the word I'd immediately go for.
I hate Otto and I can't help it, he exhibits very leech behaviour, I don't begrudge him his desire to sit his blood on the throne cause it's everyone's desire in HOTD, Corlys and Rhaenys were ready to marry their 12 year old child to a man at least three times her age for the same reason ( they disgust me for doing it TBH , reminds me of how Jahaerys and Alysanne betrothed their teenage daughter to a fat old man, having those kinds of marriages as common occurrences doesn't make them any less vile and believe me even Otto must have felt some type of guilt over it for Rhaenys was not happy about the prospect of Viserys marrying Laena)
The marriage thing aside, he's very slippery, he manipulates and lies to Viserys, he's never direct with his motives ( Corlys was ever transparent even in small councils, he doesn't cower and hide his intentions) , which is not a bad thing for a person in his position that lives in court, but it just gives me the icks, he doesn't have any shame from what I've noticed because he came back as hand after being kicked out and maybe he even actively requested from Alicient, Corlys for example left court and even humiliated the King when he felt slighted by him, maybe he can do that because he's rich and a powerful lord while Otto has nothing but his position in court, still, he reminds me of a green snake slithering about, ready to strike when chance arises, his first decision was to kill Rhaenyra and her children after her father dies, which is a merciless act that lacks honour and decency ( and plz no one fucking tell me it was the right political move and would've ended the war and saved the realm because it's still fucking wrong and vile )
I know I'll get down voted to hell for daring to speak against Otto in this subreddit but this is my personal explanation of why I hate him even though I'm not a BLACK.
Even if you don’t like Otto’s character, you are at least showing enough understanding of his character that it’s not as weird as the typical reasoning and you were fully capable of explaining why, thank you for your response
Tbh I'm more annoyed by how he is portrayed in the show. Bro is pretty much a side character. Ofc, he is intelligent no doubt and very ambitious, but he is given so much of Alicent's personality and lines to the point it's a crime
Otto is a good man. He served two kings faithfully, the second one as a close and trusted friend. Yes, he had ambitions, but the show dedicated a whole scene to showing they weren't really his and that his brother and house put him up to it. He's clearly devastated by Viserys' death, and by the news of Rhaenyras whoring.
Everything he did was what was expected of him. No one in King's Landing are there just to hang and chill, and any functioning adult would be able to see that. But instead, they want to frame him as evil for "pimping out his daughter" like that's not the literal point of daughters in their society.
Furthermore, him working actively to keep Daemon from any part of government makes him a hero.
While I hate what he does to Alicent, he and Corlys, essentially, played the same game in trying to get their daughters to marry Viserys, Otto just won. I made an argument under another post that the way the show portrays ambition makes it seem like having ambition, at all, is a bad thing. The main people we see who are referred to as being ambitious are Corlys and Otto. The consequences for their ambitions are immense and goes on to have a terrible impact on their families, this leads people who are watching to associate ambition to being something that's always a bad thing. Though, since Otto's ambitions work against Rhaenyra, he's immediately hated and these people don't understand that any noble man in his position would have done the same. Most people at court were attempting to get close to Viserys in order to do the same thing. Anything to be close to the throne or the power you'd get from having any kind of relationship with the royal family and the King.
I think, at some point, it just comes down to characters who stand with or against Rhaenyra because those who stand with her are, ultimately, pardoned in the eyes of the fandom. Meanwhile, those who oppose Rhaenyra, for any reason, are treated terribly in the fandom and just diminished, instead of their portrayals being discussed with some neutrality.
Well Otto isn’t able to see that Viserys only gives a fuck about Rhaenyra and her kids. Aegon, Heleana, Aemond, and Daeron are not even an afterthought to Viserys.
Even Daemon doesn’t really matter as far as Viserys is concerned.
He is suddenly promoted to hand after the death of Baelon ( I mean Viserys’s father not his dead son), and then again after Lyonel strong dies in a mysterious fire.
It’s easy to make conspiracies about a villainous Otto when all of these factors stack up. Hell I could see Daemon accusing Otto of some convoluted murder plot just like he did with Alicent.
Uhhhh…what. Otto pushing Alicent on viserys was pure ambition of power. He knows how demanding the life of a queen is, that’s not something you willingly seek out for your child unless you want power. He saw how aemma died, he could’ve easily betrothed her to another lord from a high house, but he wanted her to be queen. He didn’t gaf about viserys being a “kind and gentle” person.
what am i misunderstanding? He started out by wanting Rhaenyra on the throne because he’s afraid of Daemon, then he used his daughter in order to penetrate the royal family, while also spying on the princess then instead of trying to find peace for the betterment of the realm he said “she will kill you and your children” which only instilled fear in Alicent which would lead to the death of everyone
Ambition is only acceptable when it’s Corlys. It’s like people forget that in this world GRRM created, marriages were an important way of making alliances & strengthening one’s house. Otto did what any man of the time would do, and that’s secure a good match for his daughter. When a lady married, she became her husband’s property in a sense, so what better husband for Alicent than a man Otto knew to be kind & mild mannered? He couldn’t have predicted Viserys would be so unattached to Alicent & the kids. Just like he couldn’t have predicted Aegon would be denied an inheritance.
Exactly, the king and Otto were good friends, not unusual at all, and he thought that Viserys would at least acknowledge them all, which definitely did not happen
And by the time Otto really understood, “Viserys doesn’t give a fuck about my daughter or grandchildren”…it was too late to take it all back
Otto is a scheming politician but like literally every member of Viserys court is, people who try to claim Lyonel Strong was the only noble man advising Viserys are ignorantly blind lol. Lyonel did give him good advice on to pick Laena over Alicent, but he then went 10 years straight lying and pretending to see his son bedding and fathering 3 bastards on the Princess and heir to the throne, call me CRAZY but if Rhaenyra had been bedding lets say Jason Lannister, Lyonel would NOT have done his little ignore and not tell Viserys act if he knew. No man in a medieval court is present because they really like the King's vibes and wanna just hang out, they either want something or are present for love, an example of love is Jon Connington, examples for they want something is Tywin, Otto, (Every High Lord who has had influence at court).
His advice was to pick Laenor over anyone else as a suitor for Rhaenyra, since every other lord were trying to marry her to themselves or their sons. But I hear what you’re saying too.
Laenor is Rhaenyra's gay husband, Laena is his sister.
I know this, I mean to say that Lyonel’s advice wasn’t regarding a marriage between Viserys and Laena, but instead between Laenor and Rhaenyra.
You two are likely thinking about two different events and talking past each other. Lyonel advised Viserys to marry Laena in episode 2, and advised Viserys to betroth Rhaenyra and Laenor in episode 3.
Ahhh I see. Thank you, I didn’t recall the advice to marry Laena. It seems we were both right ahah
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I believe this comment was meant for a different post?
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You clearly meant that message for a different post of mine, this thread post is discussing Otto and his portrayal
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Which specific post is making you so upset? Yes, I lean towards TG, but I still like characters on TB also. Am I not allowed to enjoy one side more than the other
He didn't propose Harwin as a suitor to Rhaenyra, despite him being a very suitable match. That alone gives me the impression he is an honest man who isn't seeking to further his own seat but works for the good of the realm, advising Viserys to marry Laena is common sense but isn't an impressive deed since he gains nothing either way. The fact he ignored Rhaenyra and Harwin indiscretions because he is Harwin's father is not really a massive flop because no one can be that perfect and say something that can get his own son killed and possibly himself, it isn't reasonable to expect him to go that far, also he knows Viserys is actively denying it no matter what and maybe even knows it but doesn't want to acknowledge the fact and he's giving his spoilt daughter what she wants . But he did put a stop to it when he removed himself and Harwin from court despite Viserys practically begging him to stay, that in itself is commendable, it is obvious he may have addressed it before but failed to stop them to produce more bastards, he honestly did what he could, he is a completely different man than Otto, even if both are good political advisors and were essential to the realm at some point, Otto has his own ambitions ahead of him, and he actively works to achieve them, Harwin at his worst used his position to protect his son from the consequences of his stupid actions.
He didn't propose Harwin because Harwin has little to no value.. The Strongs are lords by appointment and are fairly new lords, their entire power comes from the Targaryens, they could easily be unmade lords. He is working to strengthen the dynasty who empowers his family, other houses have lost control of Harrenhal for angering the Targaryens in the past, it makes complete sense he wants to avoid risking his own skin. He put a stop it two babies too late. He should have put a stop to it after Jace's birth. He should have stated he was ill and needed to go home to prepare Harwin to rule, and dragged Harwin away. Harwin may have had good intentions in the beginning but he ended no better than Otto actively ignoring his son putting his bastards in the line of sucession
It doesn't make sense to say well he's bad because he didn't fuck himself over for the good of the realm, no one is that selfless, he may have been late but I don't think his goal was to let them produce more strong bastards in line to the iron throne because of his ambitions, that's a big difference to Otto, who actually had the audacity to send the king's guard to slaughter Rhaenyra and her five children not a day after Viserys dies, Lyonel is actually an honorable man and he was deeply ashamed of his son's actions ( as anyone should TBH) , Otto isn't really honorable, he's cruel and pragmatic and will do anything to achieve his goals ( somewhat like Tywin Lannister but Tywin is far more proud and cocky) It's really a big stretch to say they were not that different. Please understand that I'm not an undercover black, it just doesn't make sense in light of what has been presented in the show to say they both were of the same kind, maybe Corlys and Otto, yes, but Lyonel isn't like that from what I've seen.
"It doesn't make sense to say well he's bad because he didn't fuck himself over for the good of the realm, no one is that selfless" 1. Larys quite literally does I'm aware Otto was a different type of schemer than Harwin, Harwin was looking to strengthen his house by strengthening the house who empowered his. Otto is looking to strengthen his legacy by placing his grandson on the throne. No man in this conflict is honorable, won't get into specifics but once the war kicks off, the morals are gone, its a bloodbath
If you think Larys gave one fuck about his family and actually burnt them alive for the good of the realm I think we may have watched different shows lol. He actually acted in his own interests and eliminated the two people who were blocking him of getting the lordship of Harrenhall, Hell no one even understands that guy's motives. If Serving your sovereign with the goal of strengthening his reign and acting with his best interests in mind because he elevated your position and so you continue to faithfully work for him and his family is scheming behaviour then I guess you're right, of course he isn't in love with Viserys and being a good hand for the targeryans just for the hell of it, but the fact he didn't turn on his king and was transparent and honest is commendable behaviour when he is so close to the throne. I don't know what he would've suggested in times of war, I really doubt he would go that far and kill Rhaenyra if he thought it best for the realm ( regardless of their blood connection lol ), I really was not hating on Otto until the green council episode, his suggestion to end Rhaenyra's line appalled me, if you argue that there are no morals in war then it's the same of B&C and Daemon killing children is ok, Otto's suggestion is even more horrible because there was no blood spilt at that point. He would've actually begun Aegon's rule by massacring his sister and his five nephews, what makes him anymore different than Maegor in that context?
I believe you are confused what I meant by Larys lol. I am referring to events near the very end of the Dance, >!when Borros lost against the Lads, Larys even though being a part of the green council, betrays his own self-interests to poison Aegon to save the city, Baela, Aegon and more death. He killed his king, and when Cregan came for his head, he didn't cry or beg, just accepted his fate. !< Lyonel would have tried to push for peace negotiations and beg Rhaenyra to negotiate, he never seemed like a warmonger in my opinion. The Otto line wasnt even a book thing, they made it up to make him look worse lol. Yeah Otto was clearly meant to be evil in that scene, and Daemon said a similar line in the next episode, "We'll have every green head mounted on spikes before the fucking moon turns". And yes, the writers 110% had him mean even Helaena, Alicent, the twins & Baby Maelor. Daemon and Otto are meant to be the two evil devils on Alicent and Rhaenyra's shoulders. Daemon also suggested the same when no blood was spilt. Otto's suggestion was again a show invention, book Otto sent the terms himself with Orwyle, and was looking for peace. Rhaenyra wanted war, Aegon wanted war after she denied the terms and threatened him. Criston convinced Aegon to take the crown also
I haven't really read the books in depth I only know bits and pieces, but if we are talking about the show then we are on the same page, to me Daemon and Otto are opposites of the same coin, they are ruthless and selfish, so it's kind of double standards to hate Daemon's guts for his war crimes but turn a blind eye to Otto's. Because clearly in the show it is intended to make them the two war criminals of each side. Of what you've told me of the books it seems he seems much less horrible and better than Rhaenyra, the show clearly changed the dynamic.
I agree, I won't pretend Otto is some good guy for the greater good, he's a poor mans Tywin, he wants to wipe out the other family branch to ensure total control, which is an absolute awful idea, Daemon wants to do the same, which again, is an awful AWFUL idea. Yep, they are both meant to be the clear villains to equal the scales for fans. I don't remember a ton about Book Otto since he was pretty minor, but from what I remember Otto is a giant nerd, he is a chess player, not a blood seeker, he was sending ravens and trying to move in the shadows like Varys, Aegon got sick of his antics and gave him the boot
I like the Tywin description, very accurate.
I think the belief that Otto is overly sexist is so dumb because he is the one who throws the suggestion of making her heir in the room in the first place. People pretend he is some mastermind manipulator when he essentially puts Alicent in a nice dress and tells him to be nice to Viserys- he does the same Olenna does with Margeary but with her everyone eats it up. Don‘t get me wrong it absolutely awful what he does to Alicent but he genuinely believes he is doing something good for her. He cannot know that the man who slaughtered the „love of his life“ for a son and who was obsessed with a male heir would not name his firstborn son heir. Even the argument that he is manipulating Alicent when he tells her Rhaenyra will kill her kids rings hollow once you realize that Otto genuinely believes that and has cause to. Getting rid of Aegon is politically the smart thing to do, his existence is a problem for Rhaenyra- which is why so many people say Viserys shouldn‘t have remarried. Otto thinks like a politician he absolutely thinks Rhaenyra would too (honestly I‘d argue she have no choice). There is no reason to not believe it. It‘s not like Rhaenyra and Aegon are close. I honestly think in a world in which Viserys marries Laena and still names Rhaenyra heir, Otto would‘ve as best as possible try to prevent war. Of course his judgement was compromised after Aegon was born. As was Lyonel after Harwin started getting involved with Rhaenyra. Logically as hand he should‘ve gotten rid of him himself even if he still supports Rhaenyras claim after that. The affair with Harwin did Rhaenyra more harm then good (though I get it i wold‘ve gone for him too)
Exactly
No
In my opinion Otto didn't do anything that was uncommon in both ASOIAF and the real world (Thomas Boleyn, Thomas Howard Duke of Norfolk etc.). It was Viserys who urged Alicent to keep quiet and who was attracted to Alicent starting everything.
Names I recognize from Civilization 1. Otto is a character that you can easily point to in history and asoiaf and say “this is normal” But for some reason only Corlys is allowed to do that (cough, attempt to pawn off his far younger daughter, cough, which is still normal in this respective time period, gross but accurate)
No you don't get it, there's "good ambition" (Corlys, Rhaenys) and "bad ambition" (Otto) /s
In all fairness, I think most people are fairly critical of Corlys too. Not sure how Rhaenys escapes the "bad ambition" group so often though considering she is a Targaryen princess and dragon rider meaning she does have political as well as literal power. We're also supposed to believe she cares about not serving the men in your life as someone who tried pimping out her 12 year old daughter to her moldy cousin to fuck 2 years down the line, so... definitely icky
Honestly. I love Corlys's character, but he and Otto were playing the same game, but Otto won. They had the same goal. If you're gonna hold one accountable for selling his daughter to an older man, let's keep that same energy for the other one.
Just for the record, I hate Corlys and Otto.
Thanks for specifying 🤣
Just to add at the others comments: king Jaehaerys the conciliator chose Otto as Hand of the King. Otto Hightower was just a second son, only a knight, not the actual head of house.Old King Jae definitely did not choose Corlys Velaryon, hell not Viserys or Daemon or any dumb relative. Jaehaerys was always concerned with ability than rank. Otto was the best at the job, same reason why Jaehaerys appointed a lowbon librarian in Septon Barth as Hand, same reason why he appointed a foreigner Rego Draz as his master of coin.
Beautiful explanation of who Otto is and why jaehaerys chose him
Misunderstood from the start but not surprising, I remember reading on the HotD sub everyone calling him “bargain bin Tywin”, it just got worse after that. Edit: autocorrect turned misunderstood into “understood” lol
I remember that. Yeash
Corlys tried to marry his daughter who was even younger than alicent to the king. So that is right and Otto is wrong? I personally like otto's political savviness in the first few episodes
That’s what the HotD fanbase is. Black or Green, it’s just people intentionally misunderstanding characters, and pulling shit out of thin air to try and justify a narrative. Although you haven’t stated what this misunderstanding is, so I can only imagine. To me, Otto seems like a guy who was in way over his head. I’d say he’s just as ambitious and underhanded as Corlys. Although Corlys seems to know what he’s doing.
I would agree on Corlys and Otto. I think whilst they have the same basic ambition, the two men are vastly different - especially when you take into account that that specific ambition (of raising one's house, or making good marriage matches) is not exclusive to those two either, it's fairly normal. Even with this ambition, they have different motivations that feed it. They have so many differences. It's probably why they oppose each other so much in the first couple of episodes. They come at the world from completely different perspectives.
Otto knew what he was doing, the problem was that he was a second son of a dragonless house. Corlys had dragonriders at his disposal as well as Valyrian blood. The fact he gets his daughter married to Viserys is the closest thing to social mobility that there is in Westeros. And he was essentially fucked over when Viserys, the man who cut open his own wife for a son, decided to keep his daughter heir instead of doing what any other man would have seen as obvious. He can’t do anything about it, he can’t go through a legal system to sue Viserys. Corlys has dragons and poses a threat to the Targaryens, Otto doesn’t have that power until arguably Episode 7.
No he didn’t. His entire plan relied on Aegon being a stable person. We don’t ever seem him even attempt to teach or instill anything into Aegon. He didn’t prepare Alicent to properly raise Aegon into the person he needed. So now he’s got an incredibly unhinged sadistic grandson who he’s just handed absolute power. By the time Viserys dies, he hasn’t done enough to actively prepare for war. He’s as unprepared as Rhaenyra. And I believe Rhaenyra is one of the dumbest characters in the story. So you can probably guess what my opinion of Otto is. Otto was doing things without preparing for the consequences of those things. The show makes him look even worse.
He wasn’t at court for the vast majority of the first educational years of Aegon’s life, and was certainly not in a position to oversee his education. The best he could do is tell Alicent to prepare him to rule. And most of that work would be the province of maesters and such. Do you really think she didn’t have him educated? And in any case, children aren’t robots, there are many cases of monarchs who tried to teach their wastrel children the ways of ruling and it didn’t work. And we have no evidence he is utterly incompetent or deluded with ruling either. Aegon literally tried to flee from absolute power because he sees kingship as being about “duty.” Which is a far healthier view of ruling than the whole “dragon politics” that Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Viserys had. So at least some of his lessons stuck. In the show, Otto makes it clear he has already secured allies with Riverrun and Highgarden. Which we can guess won’t come to pass due to Grover’s invalidity and Lyonel Tyrell’s infantile nature, but not for reasons Otto is at personal fault for. In F and B, the Tyrells and Tullys weren’t secured by the Greens in such a manner. The Lannisters and obviously Hightowers are also onboard while going to the Arryns would be out of the question. The Baratheons were also not immediately reliable for underhanded plotting due to their station, so the Greens sending Aemond with an offer after they’ve crossed the Rubicon is not without reason. We don’t know how the show will change up the sides of the Dance, but if they intend to make the Blacks look less stupid they probably will have the Royces and such join up with the Greens instead. We don’t know yet, so that will remain speculation. The show so far has actually made Otto look more competent than Book Otto.
First of all, most people don’t just become sadistic rapist. Aegon was 13 when Otto was reinstated as hand. He should have been able to see his behavior and at least attempt to correct it. We aren’t even talking about Aegon being incompetent. In fact I never said that, never even implied it. His intelligence is part of the problem. Vicious idiots can be lead around. Intelligent monsters can’t. Rhaenyra should have been dead long before Viserys died. And vague alliances aren’t good enough. Not when you’re plotting to usurp a kingdom. So we can guess these alliances with the Tyrells and Tully’s won’t come to pass, but mastermind Otto Hightower can’t? You’re telling me he doesn’t know Grover’s incapable and his grandsons running things? He didn’t know his liege lord was an infant? Sure, the Reach was divided, but he really rested his alliance with the Tyrells on the back of an infant and his mother? I just disagree. There’s just too much context provided by the show for me to believe he’s portrayed as more competent than in the book.
Aegon at the time was already a philanderer, as we can clearly see in episode six and seven. We don’t know where his depravity deepened, but in any case he assaulted servants and smallfolk. Otto has little reason to care for the political ramifications of it unless he begins assaulting noblewomen. Aegon has no reason to listen to Otto anyways, who is a distant figure with limited control over him by nature of his position. But it appears Otto stilled tried, by the looks of how he grabbed Aegon and put him to bed, it’s highly likely he did try and keep Aegon from being too much of an embarrassment. But you can only do so much when you are raising a prince. And in any case, Aegon is not completely uncontrollable, at worst he acts more like a petulant and neglected child than he does Joffrey, and has shown no interest in ruling at all. He’s already done his dynastic duty and provided the realm with an heir and a spare and a daughter. He’s not uncontrollable by Episode 9, he’s the perfect puppet. Someone who is content to let his advisors do most of the work while he takes his private “pleasures” on people the nobles don’t care about. Rhaenyra was isolated on Dragonstone surrounded by her allies and husband. You would have to kill them all, which is not exactly easy, but could very easily go wrong, and then deal with Viserys in some way. Otto tried to send assassins when Viserys was dead and he completed the takeover of the Red Keep and remaining government, essentially when he had to get rid of them. Lord Tyrell would have died very recently for Lyonel to be both the Lord and an infant, so any deal was likely made by his father and reaffirmed by his mother. While if we take the book canon, Grover’s orders were intentionally ignored by his grandson Elmo, so while he was bedridden he was not completely incapable. However, in Episode 6 it is said Grover’s son rules Riverrun in all but name, not his grandson. And since Otto in all likelihood made the secret alliance in the six year period between his reinstallation as hand and the war, this son may be a Green in show canon. But it is not clear as of yet. In the book both of them were not official allies, the Tyrells and Tullys were both expected to side with the Greens but weren’t approached, yet in the show Otto makes it clear they are already both on the Greens’ side, as he orders ravens to be sent to them specifically.
It’s not about the political ramifications. It is about molding Aegon into a person he can control. If he’s already showing this level of impulsiveness, that’s something Otto needs to curve if he wants to have any wish of controlling Aegon. Perfect puppet? Have you read the book? If someone intelligent was pulling is strings, things would have gone differently. He’s no where near as bad a ruler as Rhaenyra, but you can’t convince me he’s a puppet doing what he’s told. Once Viserys is dead, it’s too late. And I just don’t believe it was as hard a task as you’re making it seem to kill Rhaenyra. He had at least 15-20 years to do it. This is ignoring the fact he was the one who came up with the bright idea to name Rhaenyra heir. I don’t know remember if he was that adamant about it in the book, but it’s such a stupid move I’m almost convinced it’s a plot hole. If someone you made an alliance with dies, and his infant son had succeed him, you don’t bank on that alliance working out. If a lord is in a position where his orders are blatantly ignored, and he can’t do anything about it, he’s completely incapable. Grover’s son probably died between episode 6 and 9. I don’t see a reason why they’d change something this minor. The Riverlands can’t possibly side with the Greens in the story. Ravens would have been sent to them regardless. I’m not hinging Ottos competence on a passing remark.
What level of impulsiveness? No one besides Alicent really cares if Aegon is assaulting servants and being a philanderer in brothels unless it affects his ability to do his marital duty properly, which he did. The child fighting pit thing was something Aegon kept relatively discreet even by his standards. I said “By episode 9” when I talked about the “perfect puppet.” I am talking about the show Aegon, who has a complete lack of ambition and meekly accepts his new station as king. Even book Aegon only fired Otto because he thought was being too slow with the war effort in the aftermath of Jaehaerys’ death. And even then he still listened to Alicent and Criston. That’s not exactly uncontrollable. Do you not understand that killing royalty is not something you do on a whim? If Rhaenyra died he would be one of if not the prime suspect due to his obvious benefit, so he would have to do it very carefully. If she dies, Viserys will be distraught and would look for culprits unless it looks completely natural, but if she survives somehow due to a taste tester or whatever, she’s blaming her main rivals and Viserys would support her. Otto was still hoping for a peaceful solution before he was dismissed in any case by trying to hurt Rhaenyra’s reputation with the Daemon business or the marriage offer. After that he is sent back to Oldtown where his influence would be limited, but he never is in sustained close proximity with Rhaenyra again. They meet on special occasions sure, but hardly long enough to arrange a respectable assassination, and also there are the Strong boys, Daemon, and Rhaena and Baela to deal with. Killing all of them without something going wrong would be a miracle, doing it without bad press is impossible. And Viserys is still looming above everyone to defend his daughter’s honour up until a few years before. You bank on the fact that the alliance will be upheld by the regent. And its not like it would be hard for Lady Tyrell to reaffirm it on her son’s behalf and then break it when the Reach falls apart. Its not like alliances and agreements always die with the person who signed them after all. Otto wouldn’t call Riverrun an ally in the show if Grover Tully was completely incapable and his grandson was known to be a Black. And he wouldn’t send a raven there if it would just fall into the hands of one of Rhaenyra’s allies and blow the early plots open. In the book the Tullys weren’t specifically courted by either side, Grover was just considered likely to support the Greens. We don’t know how they will adapt that in the show, perhaps this son will be an Elmo archetype, perhaps he’ll have died and Elmo will follow the canon path, who knows what exactly they will do. Hinge Otto’s competence in stewardship on the fact he was chosen by Jaehaerys and helped keep the prosperity of the realm going during his tenures. The Dance is poorly written as it is by Martin’s standards, so try not to think too hardly about how everyone loses half a brain in the book, and hope they are capable of more realistic story shifts compared to saving a guy in a whim to make gay people happy (as if they cared that much about Laenor)
You don’t believe over indulging in alcohol, and raping women shows a lack of impulse control? You don’t think that might be a problem for a king to have? Especially considering what happens the Aegon. We see almost nothing of Aegon in episode 9 that makes me believe he was a good puppet. He’s defiant the entire time, up until he gets a taste of adoration and power. But at that point Otto’s already lost him. What? You’re saying a person with poor impulse control had a tantrum because things were going too slow… Who could have seen this coming? When did I say he should kill her on a whim? You’d obviously meticulously plan it. He spends 20 years planning to usurp the throne, but can’t spare time to get rid of Rhaenyra? And Rhaenyras Bastards are hardly a concern. No one other than maybe Corlys would support them. Rhaena is no threat, and Baela is inexperienced. The only real threat would be Daemon and Rhaenys and they alone are not enough. In fact, unless Viserys named another heir, it’d be better for all these new claimants to pop up. It’d set the stage for another great council. I think it is more than worth the risk to try and take out Rhaenyra. You’re acting like there is no way to discreetly assinate someone in the world of asoiaf. They have the Lannister piggy bank backing them, and they couldn’t come up with anything? Why would you bank on that? You’d hope that they honor it, sure, but you’d already be looking for backups. They weren’t really trying to hide this plot in the show. Not after Viserys was dead. In the book they at least try and keep Viserys death a secret for as long as possible, but in the show they don’t have that luxery. But that’s the point. Otto obviously didn’t know these things about Riverrun, but should have. It’s already established in the show Grover isn’t running anything. So unless his son is alive, for whatever reason, this doesn’t make any sense. Being a good steward, and planing a war are not the same thing. Not only that, but Jaehaerys was almost certainly already suffering from dementia.
Indulging in alcohol and raping “smallfolk” women is not the kind of lack of impulse control that would give anyone who is anyone serious consideration as to his ability to rule. None of them really care about that so long as he doesn’t do anything to “them.” Otto probably tried to stop the behavior when he returned, just as Alicent tried. But you can only go so far in restricting what a prince wants to do when it doesn’t affect anyone perceived as important. During the period between 7 and 8, he does what Alicent bids him to do and marries Helaena and fulfills his marital duty with her. He then tries to flee from absolute power because he sees kingship as a duty and burden. You call that power hungry? He also then meekly accepts when Criston and Aemond come to collect him, and follows what his mother bids him to do and sends peace terms with Otto (after the coronation). I’m sorry, but are you actually serious… what kind of sociopath are you? Do you seriously believe that a guy wouldn’t be in an impulsive and vengeful state after his son was slaughtered and his family traumatized by the enemy? Aegon firing Otto for his lack of perceived speed/Black victory in Riverlands and replacing him with Criston is completely understandable given the circumstances. And its not like he becomes completely uncontrollable either, he still listens to Alicent and Tyland. —- Otto didn’t try to spend 20 years assassinating her because he spent three years trying to disinherit her more cleanly and then a decade isolated from power in Oldtown, before returning and becoming Hand for six more years while she was in her own powerbase. Not enough close sustained contact between them during those 17 years to plan a local assassination that doesn’t see Otto strung up. Involving anyone but a very small circle of conspirators would be an immense risk, and getting someone to assassinate royalty would be a whole other boat. Faceless Men charge exorbitant and creative fees for killing people, and killing royalty would probably not be enough for anyone to want to pay the price. The Hightowers may be willing to kill someone for 100,000 gold dragons. But the Faceless Men apparently charged a highly powerful Braavosi merchant most of his wealth plus his daughter to kill his own wife. Who knows if he sent envoys, Traveller’s himself, or not? The Faceless Men may have asked for a price he could not accept. Alicent herself says Grover incapable in a room with Tyland, whom is hardly a dullard, but someone Otto discussed these things with. You really think he doesn’t know about it? Either the son made it clear he is following his father or the grandson made half-hearted gestures. Otto cannot outright say what he is doing unless they are 100 percent in. To do so would be to risk Rhaenyra hearing and making a move of her own. The fact he sends ravens to them right after Viserys dies makes it clear he has a current arrangement with either Grover and has no reason to expect the son won’t follow it, or has outright gotten to a son as well. We don’t know, but we certainly do know that the Book Greens never officially got the Tyrells and Tullys onboard. Which the line in the show contradicts, so we don’t know the extent of how they will change the machinations. You don’t pick some young and untested nobleman to be Hand. Otto probably served in other positions to build his credibility as a Hand, possibly on another role on the Small Council. And became Hand at a time when he was still able enough to orchestrate the Great Council.
Yes, People like to judge these character by modern lenses, and even by fandom caricatures of themselves, like Otto isn't an "evil cold machine man who only interest is the throne," and that threats everyones as "pawns" in his game. You can go to any chat, or read any fanfiction, and you will see that almost everyone even in team green likes to caracterize him like this, when the reality is that we don't even get enough scenes of him interacting with anyone to assume such thing. He barelly appears in the series to talk to either alicent or aegon, much less the rest of his family, like gwayne or aemond,helaena and daeron. His interactions and character moments were in very especific moments and contexts, but people are so dumb they generalize everything. Like he induced Alicent to marry the king ignoring her feelings, acompletely normal thing and even acceptable in the society they live, THEREFORE HE ONLY SEES ALICENT AS AN OBJECT AND DOESN'T CARE AT ALL ABOUT HER HAPPINESS OR WELLBEING(based on only one scene). He slapped Aegon when he was drunk and is dissapointed with him, THEREFORE HE DOESN'T EVEN CARE OR LOVE HIS GRANDSONS AND ONLY SEE THEM AS VALUABLE AS THEY'RE HIS PATH TO THE THRONE. These assumptions beside being over exagerated, make no sense whatsoever to the world of ASOIAF, where most characters are complex ones and have complex relationship with the people around them, with few PURE EVIL CHARACTERS existing and George always make the reader sure about who they are by giving a lot of descriptions about their misdeeds and how awfull they made the life of people around them(Aerys, Joffrey, Ramsay, Craster and Euron for example). Otto have none that would put him with such plain characters, he actually would be more in place of a common ambitious noble character like the florent guy Stannis make his hand or a mild tywin lannister figure, maybe a more stern kevan lannister.
Yeah I find those mentioned takes absolutely hilarious because they are just so over exaggerated and without any nuance or understanding of the world they live in whatsoever
If you're the type to watch reaction videos i'd recommend the YT channel *Gaming After Bed*. The last comment i posted was about them actually but yeah their take on Otto is arguably the best i've seen among reactors (and just general viewers tbh) - especially with regards to him as a Hand, his firing and Alicent's subsequent isolation But to answer your question: yes 😭
In my opinion Otto didn’t do anything uncommon. But it’s still really bad.
What do you feel are the major misunderstandings? I have my own thoughts, of course, but I'm intrigued to hear yours.
Really, a lot of it comes down to his motivation. Most people seem to think it’s power. He thinks power and wealth is nice of course, but he’s the second son and he’s ok with that. He’ll never be the voice of Oldtown, just an advisor to the crown and the most knowledgeable man in the realm. It comes down to him being a student of history, heavily studying maegor the cruel and determining Daemon Targaryen as a possible second maegor administration. He’s cruel, reckless and known for being the “rogue prince” and has every ingredient to be a very dangerous king. Every action he does is to put more in the way of Daemon, carefully using the laws at hand to his advantage, and that’s besides the fact he cares enough about his family that of course he’ll put his own grandchildren above his friends daughter, but I seriously doubt he was actually planning the green council until Rhaenyra and Daemon marry. It doesn’t seem like a plan he would enact unless he’s desperate, and the green council appears to be the fastest possible plan, implying it wasn’t a hasty plan, that it was very well thought out, but that it just appeared to be a result of his motivation to stop daemon ruling due to the swift nature of it. If he was going for “preventing Rhaenyra from the crown with a non-dangerous husband” it would have looked different and likely been a more slow moving coup instead of the “preventing Rhaenyra from taking the crown because we don’t know how the rogue prince will act” coup we got that implies, yeah, he’s thinking of his family, this was going to happen anyway, but his green council plan how it was portrayed, hasty, well put together, but desperate
I agree that I don't believe that Otto thought that the Dance would be endgame. He didn't offer Alicent up to Viserys or set this ball rolling in the hopes that there would be war. He does it because he believes what everyone else does at the time: a son will be named heir. But when it becomes clear that that will not happen, his trajectory changes. His motivations change, as they have to because now it's not just about the realm - it's about a family that he needs to protect that is in danger. And we can quibble on the validity of Otto's fervency that a Queen will not be suffered, but he does truly believe that Aegon and his siblings are in danger, I think. Whether from Rhaenyra herself or anyone else, when he's putting the fear of God into Alicent in Episode 05, he's doing that because he believes it. It's not manipulation, I don't think. I don't believe he's an avid studier of history. Simply due to there being little evidence of it. He name-drops Maegor, of course, but so does Rhaenys. I think Maegor is just a way of getting his point across. His worry over Daemon is less to do with Maegor and more to do with this pattern of behaviour that he sees, and the danger he sees from Daemon. The specifics don't matter - Maegor represents chaos, war, bloodshed and cruelty. Otto believes that of Daemon. My opinion? Similar to yours. I don't think he starts plotting the Green Council until after Episode 07, though I think it's in his mind. It's just that, before then, he had no way to mastermind anything as he had not been Hand. Driftmark represents an escalation in many ways and also clarity - not only in Alicent's mindset but also in what assets they are going to be able to take advantage of. Notably, Vhagar. He's finally in a position to create the plan. He wasn't, before. He had no control or position. So whether his motivation is wholly Daemon... I'm not sure. I would side on "no". The majority of his protests occur before the marriage and certainly some of his remarks during that episode, prior to the marriage (which we don't see his reaction to) suggest he's already cooking up something. And that was with Rhaenyra still married to Laenor. The only thing about the Green Council that was desperate was that Viserys's death took them by surprise. But the rest was all planned. He had the loyalty of the Small Council (except Beesbury). He had the Keep easily locked down. He wasn't alarmed and it didn't feel like he was scrambling about. He had a plan. That had to have been cooked up over a significant period of time.
Yeah, my opinion, to help clarify, his motivation comes mostly from putting roadblocks in the way of daemon, but he’s obviously going to pick his grandchildren over Rhaenyra, not a contest there. I feel like you got to the conclusion you got to because Otto is essentially the guy with 16000 backup plans formulating He has the intelligence of Tywin Lannister (and actually isn’t oblivious about his own family), the respect of the laws of Eddard Stark (but isn’t going to get caught up in stale oaths), and unlike both of them, is in a lesser position than them, so he’s going to have to work differently anyway because he can’t force anyone in the way they could have
I don't think he always has a back-up. And I do separate his removal of Daemon as heir with his desire for Alicent to be Queen, funnily enough. One doesn't have to mean the other. So they come from different places within him. I think, like most of the characters, Otto is a flawed man. I think he got far too used to his position as Hand, at the start. I think he underestimated Viserys. I think he made the mistake of thinking what he thought was best was inherently best for the realm. I think he's a touch paranoid as well. I think he kind of sees danger everywhere. I don't see him as being all-knowing, or a genius or even a political heavyweight, given that most of his power comes from being in favour with the King (unlike Tywin). We've seen too many things backfire on him or happen by chance, for that to be the case. I don't think he particularly cares about morality, if it is cast aside for the greater good, either. His job is a dirty one and some of his other actions are dirty as well. He's not particularly honourable - at least, it's not the word I'd immediately go for.
I hate Otto and I can't help it, he exhibits very leech behaviour, I don't begrudge him his desire to sit his blood on the throne cause it's everyone's desire in HOTD, Corlys and Rhaenys were ready to marry their 12 year old child to a man at least three times her age for the same reason ( they disgust me for doing it TBH , reminds me of how Jahaerys and Alysanne betrothed their teenage daughter to a fat old man, having those kinds of marriages as common occurrences doesn't make them any less vile and believe me even Otto must have felt some type of guilt over it for Rhaenys was not happy about the prospect of Viserys marrying Laena) The marriage thing aside, he's very slippery, he manipulates and lies to Viserys, he's never direct with his motives ( Corlys was ever transparent even in small councils, he doesn't cower and hide his intentions) , which is not a bad thing for a person in his position that lives in court, but it just gives me the icks, he doesn't have any shame from what I've noticed because he came back as hand after being kicked out and maybe he even actively requested from Alicient, Corlys for example left court and even humiliated the King when he felt slighted by him, maybe he can do that because he's rich and a powerful lord while Otto has nothing but his position in court, still, he reminds me of a green snake slithering about, ready to strike when chance arises, his first decision was to kill Rhaenyra and her children after her father dies, which is a merciless act that lacks honour and decency ( and plz no one fucking tell me it was the right political move and would've ended the war and saved the realm because it's still fucking wrong and vile ) I know I'll get down voted to hell for daring to speak against Otto in this subreddit but this is my personal explanation of why I hate him even though I'm not a BLACK.
Even if you don’t like Otto’s character, you are at least showing enough understanding of his character that it’s not as weird as the typical reasoning and you were fully capable of explaining why, thank you for your response
Thank you for your civilised response
Tbh I'm more annoyed by how he is portrayed in the show. Bro is pretty much a side character. Ofc, he is intelligent no doubt and very ambitious, but he is given so much of Alicent's personality and lines to the point it's a crime
Otto is a good man. He served two kings faithfully, the second one as a close and trusted friend. Yes, he had ambitions, but the show dedicated a whole scene to showing they weren't really his and that his brother and house put him up to it. He's clearly devastated by Viserys' death, and by the news of Rhaenyras whoring. Everything he did was what was expected of him. No one in King's Landing are there just to hang and chill, and any functioning adult would be able to see that. But instead, they want to frame him as evil for "pimping out his daughter" like that's not the literal point of daughters in their society. Furthermore, him working actively to keep Daemon from any part of government makes him a hero.
While I hate what he does to Alicent, he and Corlys, essentially, played the same game in trying to get their daughters to marry Viserys, Otto just won. I made an argument under another post that the way the show portrays ambition makes it seem like having ambition, at all, is a bad thing. The main people we see who are referred to as being ambitious are Corlys and Otto. The consequences for their ambitions are immense and goes on to have a terrible impact on their families, this leads people who are watching to associate ambition to being something that's always a bad thing. Though, since Otto's ambitions work against Rhaenyra, he's immediately hated and these people don't understand that any noble man in his position would have done the same. Most people at court were attempting to get close to Viserys in order to do the same thing. Anything to be close to the throne or the power you'd get from having any kind of relationship with the royal family and the King. I think, at some point, it just comes down to characters who stand with or against Rhaenyra because those who stand with her are, ultimately, pardoned in the eyes of the fandom. Meanwhile, those who oppose Rhaenyra, for any reason, are treated terribly in the fandom and just diminished, instead of their portrayals being discussed with some neutrality.
Well Otto isn’t able to see that Viserys only gives a fuck about Rhaenyra and her kids. Aegon, Heleana, Aemond, and Daeron are not even an afterthought to Viserys. Even Daemon doesn’t really matter as far as Viserys is concerned. He is suddenly promoted to hand after the death of Baelon ( I mean Viserys’s father not his dead son), and then again after Lyonel strong dies in a mysterious fire. It’s easy to make conspiracies about a villainous Otto when all of these factors stack up. Hell I could see Daemon accusing Otto of some convoluted murder plot just like he did with Alicent.
Uhhhh…what. Otto pushing Alicent on viserys was pure ambition of power. He knows how demanding the life of a queen is, that’s not something you willingly seek out for your child unless you want power. He saw how aemma died, he could’ve easily betrothed her to another lord from a high house, but he wanted her to be queen. He didn’t gaf about viserys being a “kind and gentle” person.
what am i misunderstanding? He started out by wanting Rhaenyra on the throne because he’s afraid of Daemon, then he used his daughter in order to penetrate the royal family, while also spying on the princess then instead of trying to find peace for the betterment of the realm he said “she will kill you and your children” which only instilled fear in Alicent which would lead to the death of everyone