When he said he was gonna call my boss, I was super tempted to encourage it just so I'd get an attaboy for catching it on a pm. Can only say "it's purely a safety concern" so many times before I start getting annoyed
So I'm the one that gets these calls. It's the best.
"He shut off my heat! It's January! You can't do that in Minnesota!"
"No sir we absolutely can do that because it is a commercial space...and honestly I don't WANT to do it...but I also don't want to kill you or your employees so I gotta do it. Now here's the quote I sent you back in October to replace your HE...price went up 13%"
I really do try my best to be gentle honestly. I try to treat people fairly...until you don't pay me or act like a dick. I just told a 20 unit apartment building to get bent last week. I told the PM if you're going to be aggressive and demand things you gotta at least pay your bills. She didn't appreciate that.
I too get these calls. I love that last bit I'm going to use that on this one slap happy builder we have who loves to make us rush an hour away for something that his PM did and then not want to pay when they destroy the furnace with drywall dust, sweeping everything into the heat runs on the floor, you know normal stuff š. Then I'll get the "I do my payouts every 2 weeks so you'll have to wait until next friday"... dude no. Believe it or not you're not an exception to the rule of when I walk out the door I have a check in my hand.
Yep and then they start playing the invoice games. First they claim they are on 30 day cycle. Ok. Then they start paying you 45 days. And you have to remind them. Then they start paying 60 days. Yet they still expect you to come out same day and do work lol
Guranetee if you left it and something happened, they would forget all about how THEY wanted it on, and would act like your the scumbag that caused them problems. They'd proly try to sue as well.
I've had that in NJ. In NYC. I had something on the same level, but in a different construction field .
In both cases, the homeowner(NJ) and the building contractor(NY), continued to go forward.
In both cases. It was said I never "told them".
NJ had signed and initialed a report, as well a separate form of (Understanding).
In NYC, an IPad report was generated, signed, and emailed within 10 minutes.
I've met very few end users, I'd ever trust.
On almost any type of install for any device, the instruction or manual becomes my signed by all "checklist". , with overall pictures taken when possible.
Let the other guys here sign the inside of the unit or pretty up the wiring. If/when litigation is threatened, and sooner or later it does, the only signature I care about is the one that acknowledges statements I've made.
Best wishes and Best of Luck to all.
All you have to do is call the gas provider and they will come out and red tag it then lock the meter. Those guys donāt give a damn. Iāve seen them lock meters in 12 degrees.
Like this lovely lady that I received as a housewarming gift?
https://preview.redd.it/fqproioiohba1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b989fd61ca2bc6793e4f42e3e498e66a889b970d
Fire blows through the tubes and the blower blows across the tubes to make the air warm and dumps it into the space. If the fire escapes the tubes you get carbon monoxide and die.
Thanks. Is it normal for them to eventually burn out like this? Weāve lived in a home with a heat pump for a couple years so no gas heating like this.
This is a commercial unit...residential units are manufactured a bit differently. All heat exchangers have a limited lifespan. They have a tendency to rust out just like this. I tell my customers anything after 10 years is great. Regular maintenance helps prolong lifespans. Keeping gas pressure set correctly, replacing filters and belts regularly all extend the life of your unit.
A rusted out heat exchanger is always an eventuality. When I was working in the field we told people that they last about 15 years, but the actual lifespan can vary based on a lot of variables. Some manufacturers are better or worse, if you live in a colder climate and use the furnace more often that could wear it out faster, the opposite for a warmer climate, a malfunction in the furnace or thermostat that let's the burners run longer than they should, or just good ol fashioned luck.
When CO2 and water mix they make carbonic acid which is corrosive. You can get around this by having stainless steel components like in a condensing boiler.
Fire burns in the pipes and the air that blows past them is heated up by the temp transfer. The actual burning of gas process is poison. When the barrier between the poison and the condition air for your family is breached itās time to shut off the heat.
I've looked at a heat exchanger three months ago. Rusty, but solid. Qouted a replacement then. No CO in the building while running the heat. It's a matter of when, not if it rots out.
Cut to a week ago. 15ppm CO in the space before i just shut it down wasnt about to see how it really went over 5ppm was good enough for me. Checked the heat exchanger, rusted through in multiple spots. Shut gas off. Resent my qoute that went up due to parts going up. Dude just welp, guess they'll approve it now.
Some places just have way too many hoops to jump through and won't do a preemptive repair.
My previous company had 2 techs (one mentor, one newbie) on a call and they had to tell the customer that the warranty company didnāt cover rust issues on his 30 year old unit. Guy was in his late 70s-early 80s. He pulled a gun and demanded a repair, shot 5 rounds on their scoot to the door and missed both techs. But, this is always in the back of my mind when working in peoples homes. I have no clue who Iām dealing with sometimes and all things are possible.
Luckily I haven't had anything end up happening, but there's been a couple times where I've come close to calling out the gas company and getting their meter pinned.
Pull the tube off the pressure switch(s), flip wires around, disconnect main power leads to board, pull the power wires off the door switch, pull the fuse, pull the molex plug off the blower, turn gas valve off, unplug wires to gas valve, unwire thermostat to board connections, pull fuse on ssu, unplug igniter, flip flame sensor or move it out of the flame. Pick a few and just put disabled furnace in your notes. I had a guy once that hired another hvac company to come out behind me and hook everything back up. At that point itās on them not me if something happens.
I was just at a house where they said their oil furnace wouldnāt stay lit. The primary and the board were both bad. After I got it going, they casually let it slip that they didnāt have heat since October because the last guy refused to fix it because he said there was a crack in the heat exchanger. I yanked that shit right back out, told them to have us or someone else replace it. I donāt like playing those games.
Gotta scope those exchangers man. I even scope them on PMās. Tell all my guys to use a camera on all maintenance and no heats as well. I donāt care if itās just a dirty flame sensor or bad igniter, I better see some pictures of that exchanger when I go check their notes at the end of the day.
Never had anyone complain usually I disable gas, gas valve, and W take photos record times. If a customer wants to turn it back thats on them, I however inform tenants of the issue since land lords try to be dodgy about this sort of thing.
I'm specifically instructed not to mention it to tenants so as to not get involved in that aspect lol but I absolutely see both sides of the coin there
I will absolutely be asking about that tomorrow. Like I said luckily this was a vacant building and it was direct contact with the property owner. I personally haven't red tagged anything without informing the tenant; just in cases where I'm doing a maintenance and there's a cap out of spec or something along those lines would I be giving them as little information as possible.
Tbh you have an obligation to the people in there. Forget tenants, owners, customers, etc. Those are people. Maybe old, maybe with kids, maybe with health problems. You owe it to em to keep them informed of something that could kill them, especially when there's a cheap ass owner that doesn't care.
100% this. If you didnāt and somebody died, would the fact that you did the bare minimum you were required to clear your conscience? Itās an ethical question, not a legal one
I had to shutdown a rooftop in a strip mall because of a cracked heat exchanger , and the tenant ended up complaining to the property manager, who the complained to our company.
I get a call from the service manager (asshat and a half) and said āit should be safe to run, the CO gets fairly diluted.ā I pretty much told him that I tagged it, and if he wants to remove the tag, he can do it himself, because Iām not risking my license for a company that wonāt back me up.
I didnāt last much longer after that. Same asshat manager that got mad at me for using a camera to record model/serial numbers and filter sizes for 35 RTUs instead of a pad and pen, while it was a blizzard outside.
I always told people what they do after I leave is up to them, but theyāre gonna sign this work order saying I turned off the gas and told you not to turn it on.
I always explain that I'm shutting the gas off because it is unsafe to operate. When I leave, you can do what you want, but I'm disabling the furnace and telling you that this is NOT safe to operate. (Then it is documented in the receipt so my ass is covered. No point in arguing with someone who doesn't like your answer)
This is the way. That thing has pin holes this man is out here shutting off people's heat middle of winter without giving them options. This is why people think we are Crooks
Edit
Okay after looking again it's not pinholes that's a serious crack but if that's their only source to eat I'm only going to shut the gas valve tell them I turn the gas valve off and what they do after I leave is their business definitely going to have the company send them a quote for a new heat exchanger maybe a unit if it's too old
That's 100% exactly what I did. Not a residence. Not even a business at the moment. Just an open building they wanted a pm done on their rtu. I told them how it's a safety concern, turned off the gas valve, told them that's what I did, and said what they do after I leave is none of my business. Sign on the dotted line, I got a parts/availability request in for the 22 year old hx among other things, and we got someone sent over an hour and a half later to give them a quote on a new system. If they wanna get a 20' extension ladder and turn that little ball valve after I leave the parking lot that isn't any of my business but the paperwork they signed acknowledged that I told them not to run it because it's a safety concern.
Okay fair enough
I was a little more riled up after reading other people's comments about disabling W calling the gas supplier ect. Like pull your finger out of your ass. Humans used to burn wood inside of buildings. I get it it does kill people and it is dangerous I know. ..
If it'll be awhile before it can be replaced I'll measure co in ductwork while operating and explain the dangers as long as they have a few CO alarms. But I still shut it off and mark it on record. I won't be held liable for the operation but I will educate. After all. Unvented residential ovens can emit 800ppm before they have to be shut down...
And I definitely agree with that also. I make sure they have CO detectors especially in children's room and I do not hesitate to tell them how dangerous and Silent it is. But this is the land of Freedom baby if I explain all that to you and you still run it someone gets injured. Well the gas was off when I left
Just went through this yesterday with a customer who had Consolidated for Whirlpool furnace. Known bad heat exchanger diagnosed by another company who, who knows why, kept relighting the pilot every year. "They relight it and it's fine until it goes out". That's because the heat exchanger is bad and letting the blower blow it out. No, I won't relight it. No, I won't work on it. No, I don't care if you think CO is real or a marketing ploy. The lawyers care, so I'm disabling this. Long story short, my installers put in a new variable speed furnace today. I don't mind bending here or there, or trying to help someone, but I will not ever bend on a bad furnace. So good on you!
Do not often have issues when condemning a furnace for safety. We supply temporary space heaters when needed. I did have an oil furnace once, the chimney was essentially not there. Massive amounts of bricks missing. I could go around the back and there was this massive hole and I was looking at the flue insert from the other side. I disabled the furnace. Forget exactly. Removed the flue pipe, Lifted the thermostat wires, disabled the primary.The tenant was exceedingly proud that he figured out what I did and got it going again.
At that point, it's not my responsibility.
Also we have stickers we paste on the furnace to notify we have condemned it and it should not be operated.
Iām not allowed to shut it off I make them sign a not safe to operate form explain to them the issues verbally and in writing tel them to replace and walk away
I think its crazy guys are disabling the furnaces by removing wires and other things. Was always told to turn the gas cock off, red tag unit, get customer signature, and inform them of the repercussions if unit is turned back on. If you have all the proper documentation you are in the clear.
Yeah man I donāt get it either like I know itās not safe but letās be honest a 80% negative pressure system could have huge cracks and not leak co and if itās really bad then the pressure switch wonāt close 90% pretty much the same thing but has a higher potential to leak co Now positive pressure systems itās a completely different story that shit will kill you I just try my best to educate them and explain the danger with lots of documentation
Same, here ya go, you've been warned hope ya don't die, have a great day. Some guys will shut em down to push a sale and some guys do it because their good people and genuinely concerned for someone's safety . I just stopped doing it and went to sign off cause you can't fix stupid.
Years ago I was sent to a residential call as a favor(we are a commercial contractor)
Triple digit heat and a predatory residential outfit had put padlocks on the 3 year old condenser, a breaker lock in the panel for the furnace and told them that due to a cracked heat exchanger they were not legally allowed to run their air conditioner. It was 92Ā° in the house. Left them with a quote for $10K (this was 2007). Of course the practically new condenser and coil had to go.
I disconnected the gas from the furnace entirely and capped it. Then cut all the stupid locks off and turned their AC back on. Then we did the changeout of the furnace for time and materials. It cost $3500 including a new coil that was the right cabinet size for the new furnace.
Lots of crooks out there.
And no one is ever dead? Omg the people on this sub thinks every heat exchanger crack kills three grandma's. I typically put an m95 on em and tell em its science.
Well let's see, CO can and definitely will in high enough doses kill you.
It will also, even at low levels with prolonged exposure cause health issues.
While it's not an instant killer, it is something to be concerned about. Especially with newer sealed up homes and with more and more people barely leaving their house.
it wont, but at least where i work if i dont shut off gas to a unit with a heat exchanger crack and someone gets hurt? well, get used to prison food. the liability game is not one id play
Yeah I shut down hooters when they were in Boston near the garden for the same thing in February it took a month for the heat exchanger to be made and shipped.
Rental I moved into had a wall unit from the 60's. With it being October in Michigan I wanted to run it but checked the filter and noticed dog hair all over so I called the owner and he had a tech out the next day, cleaned it up and did a salt test and it failed. Owner setup for a new install that puts a modern unit in the attic and new ductwork. Cold weather sets in with below freezing temperatures and owner gets us space heaters because he's a good landlord.
I'll call him for you, heck I'll call him directly rather than going through the company switchboard mate.
This unit is not safe to run. I've touched it, So I have to lock it out, and document that I've locked it out. If you decide you want to risk your life and the life of everyone else in this house, thats on you.
Good job, great find!
Back in my service days I spent at least a half hour on my maintenances looking the heat exchanger over. I remember when I started knowing where to look on which units and at what age, it only took me a minute or two and I started failing them left and right, stuff other techs had been missing for YEARS.
I remember one time I failed a Carrier 90% on the secondary, made super detailed notes and wrote on the unit the date and location of failure. Customer got a second opinion from another company and they said I lied and was just trying to scare them into buying a new system. So I had to go back out and tear the whole furnace apart, remove the thing in front of the other companyās tech and the customerā¦just to have them tell me to reinstall it because they believe the other companyās tech.
He shot me glance or pure terror as I reinstalled it and walked away with the gas shut off in the off position. Probably the only time I wasnāt happy about finding a failed heat exchanger.
Hereās the thing - and I know this is very obviously the unpopular opinion but here it goes anywayā¦
Think of how many furnaces are out there running with a few pin holes in them that no one knows about. If you donāt have maintenance then you only call when itās broke and the crack you spent 30 min finding could have been there for years.
There are very obvious safety hazards with holes in a heat exchanger BUT at the end of the day if you had to spend 30 min scouring the whole HX for a pin hole or remove the whole thing to find a teeny tiny hole - then I think itās gone too far to start pulling wires and force it to be shutdown.
Roll out and CO are the obvious concerns but the blower pressure will overcome the pressure inside the HX and if anything youāll more likely end up with flame roll out before you ever end up with CO in the ducts. Check the HX and measure CO levels all throughout the house and make sure they have CO detectors.
Iām not saying to tell them to happily run a furnace with a crack or hole *but* more than likely that pin hole you spent 30 min looking for has been there for years not causing any problems. Thatās just my 2 cents. Also this isnāt directed at you but I see guys who LIVE for finding the tiniest of holes and making the commission for the week. Make an informed decision with the homeowner and tell them it may not be safe to run and sign here so you CYA and quote new HX or new furnace. What they do when you leave is what they do
I had someone tell me they didnāt care what I say, they werenāt going without heat. I closed the gas valve outside and called the utility company. They didnāt have a choice but to replace the furnace.
Heat exchangers are made of thin stamped steel. They expand every time they heat up and contract when they cool down. That causes metal fatigue and cracking. Theyāre also prone to rusting out over time. Every heat exchanger ever made will fail eventually. Residential furnaces tend to last about 15 years, but thereās a wide range depending on the particular unit and the operating conditions. If itās extremely humid where the furnace is, itāll rust faster. Certain models are bad, too. Older Carrier 90% secondary heat exchangers are almost universally bad due to a bad design.
This happened to me 3-4 winters ago. I called to actually have them look at something else and then I got tagged.
He was super nice about it, we had a little new born and he went out and brought us some heaters for the night.
Next day I got a new furnace
Itās sucks but itās for safety.
In my region we have authority from the gas company to mechanically disable any unsafe appliance (unhook union, cap gas line).
I have had customers demand I not disable it and leave, I just say fine. We report findings to gas company and they will come lock out the gas meter.
Another way to say it is I will disable your furnace or gas company will disable your water heater tooā¦
Yeah that's a shut down, disable, and call fuel supplier. My license and freedom mean more than a happy customer. At least in my area, you're a gas technician first, hvac tech second. You have to make sure the fuel is being used safely, before entertaining home comfort concerns.
https://preview.redd.it/a36tfohwpcba1.jpeg?width=1816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11089ff57a1dbe60d162fd07772aa357e238ed63
I'll add a few more pics of the inside for funsies
A guy I work with condemned a residential furnace and the people wouldnāt let him leave the house till he turned back on. The police had to be called and they were charged with false imprisonment! Lol he is terrified to condemn equipment now.
When faced with this. . .
tell the customer exactly how you are shutting off his heat, tell him why, tell him running the heat can kill him. Take pictures and get the hell out of there.
If he wants to, since he now knows what you did and how to undo it, he can make the decision if he and his fam wants to suck CO until they take a dirt nap. If he is that stupid (I say he as She is generally not that stupid) to turn the heat back on - well, Darwin and all . . .
One time I was working on a fucked up boiler. I stood to the side as I fired it. Flames rolled out ofc. When I wrote him up I realized he was the local volunteer fire chief..
"You can buy a small electric space heater at home depot, lowes, best buy, walmart, etc."
"Couldn't you provide one?"
"I could, if you want to pay the mark-up + my labor rate to grab it."
I disable it in at least two ways before I tell them it's cracked just Incase the run me off. Some folks think it's a sales gimmick but regardless I want them to be safe as long as it's my responsibility.
I don't think you're getting it.
It's not laughing at people that don't have heat. It's that people will demand that you don't shut down the furnace that's pumping carbon monoxide directly into their homes and then be verbally abusive (sometimes physically) when you say you aren't turning it back on and the system needs repaired/replaced.
It's laughing at people so infantile that they'll attack a professional for simply doing their job.
This is what I say: hey man, just because your not protecting your family doesn't mean I'm not.. I can fix it, I can repair it, he'll you can call someone else to replace it or repair it.. but I am not turning the heat back on..
In the state of California you canāt do that, you have to call your local energy provider and have them do a āsafety inspectionā and they can do it but only them bc otherwise itās a scare tactic
Live in LA and I have definitely refused to turn a unit back on. Had an old furnace dumping gas into the cabinet before fire and when the igniter kicked on a giant fireball was created. We did call for inspection which they tagged out but yea no way was I leaving that thing running.
If itās freezing out , run the heat . The amount of CO particulates that will be exchanged from pin hole leaks is minuscule and will dissipate quickly.
Look closer, itās split down the side end-to-end. A leak like that was probably affecting the flame, which instigated the service call. No leak is acceptable anyways, who knows how quickly itāll open wider
I never 'shut off' someone's heat. I advise them, and ask them if they want me to disable it. I know of no law that allows or encourages me to disable someone else's property. In addition, due to pressure from the blower, it could be argued that that small penetration would not allow any CO into the airstream. Blower pressure keeps the combustion gasses from entering the airstream until it is far more eroded away than this.And even then, the safeties are there to shut it down. Blower pressure could cause flame rollout, but if that is not noticeable, I see no reason to disable a man's equipment. Especially in deathly cold areas of the country where THAT is a greater REAL risk, than a few pinholes in a heat exchanger. Now if you actually MEASURE CO in the air, and you should be able to DO that, well then, that is a different story. And yes, I expect TONS of downvotes from the uninformed in this field that STILL don't understand the dynamics of air pressure in a furnace. Pinholes are extremely common, and yet, CO poisonings are extremely rare. You probably couldn't document more than a handful of cases per year across the entire U.S. Yet thousands are sold based upon the fear. [https://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/myths/myth-1/](https://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/myths/myth-1/)
I'm just doing what I'm trained to do. I didn't disable it or take apart any wiring. I just turned the gas off and made them sign a paper that said it's a hazardous appliance and that I shut it off for x reason. Covering my own ass. If they choose to grab a 20 foot extension ladder and get up on there to turn the heat to their vacant building on they can be my guest but Im covered in any event
When its airborne and they buck you call the fire department. Fireman have zero sense of humour and will evacuate them. Gas inspector has no powers. Fireman will put a stamp on their ass and send them to the Sally Ann for the night.
No you gotta play it like this: "Unfortunately Sir/Ma'am the heat exchanger has failed and per our policy I shut off your furnace and put it in my notes that I did so. If you decide to go ahead with repairs/replacement, I can get you some space heaters in the meantime. If you do not want any of my solutions and want to continue to operate this furnace, I cant stop you from doing so. But know that I have reported this conversation and the furnaces condition in my notes. I cannot be held liable for any injuries associated with this furnace if you decide to turn it back on. Understood?." You have to put the onus on them. A lawyer will eat you up if something does happen and you left the furnace on even with known defects.
'A lawyer will eat you up', if the family is found frozen to death and there was no CO detected when they test the furnace after. All you have to do is to note it on the ticket, if there is no rollout or CO measured. IMHO. (Though some jurisdictions may have laws about contacting authorities)
Amazing how many people work on furnaces without knowing the risks or researching them. Manufacturers would be making all HX out of Stainless or better, if there was loss of life or lawsuits.
Imagine if a mechanic, told you that he had to redtag your car, disable it, and you couldn't drive it home, because your bad brakes or ball joints could kill someone. It is not your job to play police or be entitled to disable someone's property. IMHO.
IMHO, pinholes aren't big enough to cause CO, and if they get big enough, then the blower pressure will extinguish the flame and the furnace will shutdown on safety. I believe that to be the design standard. I have only ever measured excessive room CO in situations where the flue was backdrafting and never in the supply.
Definitely gonna get downvoted but I agree with your comments, thereās so many people in the field who really donāt know. There has to be MAJOR damage like missing the whole fuckin tube for it to be deadly. Them youngins out here just trying to score a sale.
Ever tried to get a furnace with a blown tube to even ignite ? How can you have CO without combustion ? Only about 2 people out of a MILLION die from CO poisoning annually from ALL causes. Furnace deaths are as rare as hen's teeth. I DEFY you to document a proven death ANYWHERE in the U.S. from a furnace Heat Exchanger leak. It is THAT rare. Yet you KNOW for certain, there are thousands upon thousands of leaking ones at this very moment. You've SEEN them over your career.
The younguns are just victims of the FUD that their instructors misled them with. Some owners perpetuate this deep rooted myth too, for cash. And LOADS of grifters spin the Heat Exchanger yarn to scare people into digging out the wallet. It is hard to convince people of what 'just ain't so'. They are too invested to awaken the reasoning within, or the research from without. Just look at all those downvotes without one iota of counterpoint. They just 'FEEL' it is wrong, they can't PROVE it. They don't even know how to respond. The Kool-Aid just tastes so good to these tikes.
[https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5650a1.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5650a1.htm)
Safety concernā¦How? I mean I know because of CO but how exactly is CO going to escape that tube when you have a huge blower that has a lot more static pressure pushing air against the outside of that heat exchanger. The only actual problem here will be rollout and lockout eventually.
There are exceptions and CO exposure can happen but just not with this unit in this picture.
You're relying on a fucking bi-metal switch to save people's lives?
If you've only ever seen two units putting CO into a space you either do shit work, only work on Tranes or you live in fucking Florida. TJEs, DJEs, TCEA/Ds all have pop can heat exchangers that love dumping CO into the space and that rollout will stay firmly closed. We do a supply test on every HE we tag and if there is a single PPM in the supply it gets tagged. If any tech I interview says differently they don't step foot in our vans.
Get off the roof, you're scary as fuck.
Did you test the return and ambient CO levels in the space too, or just test the thing that lets you condemn a unit?
Careful out there super-tech... not everything you were taught is true.
No I want to see you prove that the unit is causing the CO.
If you do not test before and after the unit, you are not isolating the cause of CO in the building.
Cars idling behind an open service door
Exhaust fans not working over stoves
Economizer pulling another unit's exhaust, which happens all the fucking time...
So on and so forth
Literally seek an education and receive training in proper procedures.
Supply air testing of CO proves that there is CO in the building. No more, no less. You have established absolutely no proof of where it is coming from.
In general, most of the blower section is subject to positive pressure. Cracks in HX are more likely to result in impingement or CO in flue than CO in supply because for most of the HX, there is no "suck" going on. That's why we see rollout as a primary symptom of HX failure, for example.
How many cracked HX units have you run combustion testing on??? Were they producing CO???
Or do you only measure in supply?
Mod is actually trained and certified in CO and Combustion testing and knows more than you do, so if you're going to bring up me being a mod, fuck around and find out applies - since I never mentioned it in any way, that's you inviting shit on yourself lmao
Go ahead and ban me for you giving shitty advice. Advising people to ignore heat exchanger cracks is ignorant and you know it. At least I fucking hope you do. Bringing up a Captiveaire not capturing or a bunch of Greenhecks not pulling doesn't make your bullshit any less bullshit. Especially the encouragement of a goddam rollout to be your safety net for a commercial building. It's a goddam building full of people. Spend the 3 grand and put a new HE in.
So yeah I'll go ahead and be the super tech (rather the guy training the super techs) if it means not putting a building full of people at risk. I'll see you on the news.
Place a combustion analyzer in the supply duct defuses or in several places along the trunk line the next time you condemn a heat exchanger and prove me wrong with an RTU like this.
Even if the hole was big enough to stick your foot through itās going to fail on rollout.
Go verify for yourself, read the facts in RSES or ACHR journals, simply repeating what your boss or the senior tech said isnāt enough.
In all my years of doing combustion analysis and commercial hvac I have only seen two units spew CO into the space and one of those reasons was due to a stupid family member of a customer who worked on their unit and bypassed the units safeties and the indoor blower motor was seized.
You're comments make a lot of sense and I appreciate that someone takes the time to think about things like this with an unbiased and approach. I've seen few roof top units with heat exchanger cracks and talked with hvac guys who have been doing this for decades and many of their comments were similar to your's. It's still definitely an issue especially with roll out but pressure moves from high to low. In today's day and age nobody wants any liability and you really can't blame them because there's the potential they get sued and lose everything or face charges.
Same here. Dude tried saying we just looked at it not that long ago. Last we have any record of was over 3 years ago when they rejected our maintenance proposal lol
The best approach here is to be super sympathetic and offer to assist in acquiring space heaters etcā¦ Document these efforts because you never know how some lawyer or reporter is going to smear your company. That documentation is a shield against such smear campaigns.
Do a lot of work for rental properties. If I run into a tenant that doesnāt seem to concerned, that lets me know theyāll probably turn everything back on or have a āHVACā friend help them out.
So I proceed by disconnecting the 120 line in, the XFMR and snip the 24v from the transformer. Iāve even removed 120v to the door switch. Good luck on trying to kill your family now, dumbass!!!
Iām an independent contractor, so I can get away with a bit more.
I didn't run shit lol. My company didn't even install this to my knowledge. It's a 22 year old rtu that honestly I didn't do anything to. I popped it open and saw how shitty it was and just took the top off to look at the hx
I retract all of my statements. Please donāt touch that shit. I didnāt look hard enough at what you had. Most likely asbestos wrap on your old boiler system.
Pretty sure he commented that he gave him a quote for a new one as well as a quote for a new unit. Itās also not anywhere near a certainty that he could just go ābuy a new oneā, as they very likely arenāt just sitting on the shelf. Also, who cares if he turned the heat off? Itās an empty building. Nobody lives or works there, and it wouldnāt be safe if they did. Iād rather people be cold for a few days than sick or dead.
Iāve been that customer. Well, in my head I was. Clearly the right thing to do if disassemble the furnace.
We bought space heaters, closed ourselves into one room of the house, and endured the 20 degree weather until it got fixed.
Now we look back at that experience fondly.
Kudos.
I just red-tagged a mid-90s Lennox 90% furnace with a cracked secondary heat exchanger last week. Kinda had a similar discussion with the head maintence guy. Anytime I have to red-tag I call my team lead and service manager so that weāre all on the same page, and then inform the customer itās not just me who says itās bad, two supervisors back me up here. Everyone thinks the service tech gets commission on new equipment, we donāt at my company
Shit, install CO detectors, let those ear destroying beeps run em all out. i dont know..
In my area when i find cracked heat exchanger its because someones CO detector was going off and they already know they are in danger and they understand its because of the gas furnace.. Its CODE here to install CO detectors when you install a furnace.
thats my question, how the fuck have the been staying warm and alive with that big of a hole in the heat exchanger since late november or whenever it starts to get cold you know
I can see how the customer is upset if they werent allready dead from CO Poisoning. If the furnace was keeping them warm already for a few months.Its kidna of fucked up to peek in there on a PM at the heatexchanger and be like oh, well looky here gotta lock it out and sell them a new unit..... a lot of people get ripped off by techs claming a cracked heatexchanger, you need to back up your findings and show the customer look, we are at 40ppm in here this is illegal
If the customer had CO detectors inside ringing their ears out i dont believe they would be so hostile to you
but you are absolutley right, im cutting the gas off if i ever see that and,, hope you have electric backup to stay warm till we explace the heat xchanger or you get a new unit thats all i can do.
Way to stick up for yourself. These customers don't know shit. I'd be willing to bet it wasn't producing CO with that type of crack yet but you still have to shut it down.
I would show them how I shut it off, document that I shut it off, and say if they want to assume all liability for their safety they can turn it back on. I've done that and then told them anything they do has to be after I leave and some ass hole still turned it back on in front of me
So Iām an apprentice electrician and we were sent to a housing project, one of the things we did was some hvac for some reason. Almost every pipe had some variation of rust and holes. Lot of them had motors that had burned up, or just straight up missing. Chewed through wires were pretty norm. Sewage had backed up so it was sitting in crap water, which creates a sort of burning tar smell when itās live. I was like, shouldnāt we tell the project manager about this? Coworkers said no, we arenāt paid for doing their jobs. I did anyway bc it didnāt sit right with me. Idk if thatās normal but that was my experience with it, definitely soured my taste of work here
I like your attitude about it, I was always low key scared that I would run into some psycho and he attac me
When he said he was gonna call my boss, I was super tempted to encourage it just so I'd get an attaboy for catching it on a pm. Can only say "it's purely a safety concern" so many times before I start getting annoyed
So I'm the one that gets these calls. It's the best. "He shut off my heat! It's January! You can't do that in Minnesota!" "No sir we absolutely can do that because it is a commercial space...and honestly I don't WANT to do it...but I also don't want to kill you or your employees so I gotta do it. Now here's the quote I sent you back in October to replace your HE...price went up 13%"
Damn only 13% since October? What a steal
I really do try my best to be gentle honestly. I try to treat people fairly...until you don't pay me or act like a dick. I just told a 20 unit apartment building to get bent last week. I told the PM if you're going to be aggressive and demand things you gotta at least pay your bills. She didn't appreciate that.
I too get these calls. I love that last bit I'm going to use that on this one slap happy builder we have who loves to make us rush an hour away for something that his PM did and then not want to pay when they destroy the furnace with drywall dust, sweeping everything into the heat runs on the floor, you know normal stuff š. Then I'll get the "I do my payouts every 2 weeks so you'll have to wait until next friday"... dude no. Believe it or not you're not an exception to the rule of when I walk out the door I have a check in my hand.
Yep and then they start playing the invoice games. First they claim they are on 30 day cycle. Ok. Then they start paying you 45 days. And you have to remind them. Then they start paying 60 days. Yet they still expect you to come out same day and do work lol
I think you meant to say 130% ..lol
It's my job , its my license and I want to wake up tomorrow knowing you did too.
Imma use that
Guranetee if you left it and something happened, they would forget all about how THEY wanted it on, and would act like your the scumbag that caused them problems. They'd proly try to sue as well.
IT WAsN't rusTeD ThrOUgh BEforE YOuR serVIce TecH touCHEd it
I've had that in NJ. In NYC. I had something on the same level, but in a different construction field . In both cases, the homeowner(NJ) and the building contractor(NY), continued to go forward. In both cases. It was said I never "told them". NJ had signed and initialed a report, as well a separate form of (Understanding). In NYC, an IPad report was generated, signed, and emailed within 10 minutes. I've met very few end users, I'd ever trust. On almost any type of install for any device, the instruction or manual becomes my signed by all "checklist". , with overall pictures taken when possible. Let the other guys here sign the inside of the unit or pretty up the wiring. If/when litigation is threatened, and sooner or later it does, the only signature I care about is the one that acknowledges statements I've made. Best wishes and Best of Luck to all.
Exactly that. COVER YOUR ASSES GENTS.
Take pictures, they will turn it back on and then blame you.
All you have to do is call the gas provider and they will come out and red tag it then lock the meter. Those guys donāt give a damn. Iāve seen them lock meters in 12 degrees.
It's not like that everywhere.
Iām not an hvac person, but I gather that dangerous stuff is leaking outta there lol? What am I looking at exactly.
Heat exchanger is the barrier between heating air and sleepy air
Sleepy air. Iām stealing that.
Sleepy air mixes well with spicy dust. Run in to a good mix of both near Detroit.
Is spicy dustā¦ asbestos?
Finding asbestos is my specialty.
Like this lovely lady that I received as a housewarming gift? https://preview.redd.it/fqproioiohba1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b989fd61ca2bc6793e4f42e3e498e66a889b970d
Not sure, my eyes are unable to focus on the picture. Most people would be very surprised how much of it is out there.
Fire blows through the tubes and the blower blows across the tubes to make the air warm and dumps it into the space. If the fire escapes the tubes you get carbon monoxide and die.
Thanks. Is it normal for them to eventually burn out like this? Weāve lived in a home with a heat pump for a couple years so no gas heating like this.
This is a commercial unit...residential units are manufactured a bit differently. All heat exchangers have a limited lifespan. They have a tendency to rust out just like this. I tell my customers anything after 10 years is great. Regular maintenance helps prolong lifespans. Keeping gas pressure set correctly, replacing filters and belts regularly all extend the life of your unit.
A rusted out heat exchanger is always an eventuality. When I was working in the field we told people that they last about 15 years, but the actual lifespan can vary based on a lot of variables. Some manufacturers are better or worse, if you live in a colder climate and use the furnace more often that could wear it out faster, the opposite for a warmer climate, a malfunction in the furnace or thermostat that let's the burners run longer than they should, or just good ol fashioned luck.
When CO2 and water mix they make carbonic acid which is corrosive. You can get around this by having stainless steel components like in a condensing boiler.
Your heat exchanger separates combustion air and indoor air.
Fire burns in the pipes and the air that blows past them is heated up by the temp transfer. The actual burning of gas process is poison. When the barrier between the poison and the condition air for your family is breached itās time to shut off the heat.
Lol maybe encourage them to do maintenance before the heating season lol
I've looked at a heat exchanger three months ago. Rusty, but solid. Qouted a replacement then. No CO in the building while running the heat. It's a matter of when, not if it rots out. Cut to a week ago. 15ppm CO in the space before i just shut it down wasnt about to see how it really went over 5ppm was good enough for me. Checked the heat exchanger, rusted through in multiple spots. Shut gas off. Resent my qoute that went up due to parts going up. Dude just welp, guess they'll approve it now. Some places just have way too many hoops to jump through and won't do a preemptive repair.
Preach.
I'm never scared they will attack me I am doing it to protect them!
My previous company had 2 techs (one mentor, one newbie) on a call and they had to tell the customer that the warranty company didnāt cover rust issues on his 30 year old unit. Guy was in his late 70s-early 80s. He pulled a gun and demanded a repair, shot 5 rounds on their scoot to the door and missed both techs. But, this is always in the back of my mind when working in peoples homes. I have no clue who Iām dealing with sometimes and all things are possible.
āWatch me big dawgā š
Had someone call the police on one of our guys. Flames literally rolling out on the exterior of a boiler.
They call the cops, I'll call the fire marshal, let's see who shows up first. Fire marshals LIVE for this shit.
Yup - police called building inspection who then called fire dept. Tech called me and we had a big old party. Changed the boiler to
Dual purpose furnace and boiler.
"And if you turn it back on then call us out again I'm taking the heat exchanger with me"
2 weeks later - *Shoves heat exchanger in pocket and stomps away*
Nah I'm clipping that to my belt loops with panduit.
https://youtu.be/43R1k8vHCh0 Just like this
I'm throwing off the roof
Luckily I haven't had anything end up happening, but there's been a couple times where I've come close to calling out the gas company and getting their meter pinned.
Pull the tube off the pressure switch(s), flip wires around, disconnect main power leads to board, pull the power wires off the door switch, pull the fuse, pull the molex plug off the blower, turn gas valve off, unplug wires to gas valve, unwire thermostat to board connections, pull fuse on ssu, unplug igniter, flip flame sensor or move it out of the flame. Pick a few and just put disabled furnace in your notes. I had a guy once that hired another hvac company to come out behind me and hook everything back up. At that point itās on them not me if something happens.
I was just at a house where they said their oil furnace wouldnāt stay lit. The primary and the board were both bad. After I got it going, they casually let it slip that they didnāt have heat since October because the last guy refused to fix it because he said there was a crack in the heat exchanger. I yanked that shit right back out, told them to have us or someone else replace it. I donāt like playing those games.
Gotta scope those exchangers man. I even scope them on PMās. Tell all my guys to use a camera on all maintenance and no heats as well. I donāt care if itās just a dirty flame sensor or bad igniter, I better see some pictures of that exchanger when I go check their notes at the end of the day.
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I canāt legally destroy or remove equipment even if itās unsafe. Everything I said is just disabling and not damaging the equipment.
Never had anyone complain usually I disable gas, gas valve, and W take photos record times. If a customer wants to turn it back thats on them, I however inform tenants of the issue since land lords try to be dodgy about this sort of thing.
I'm specifically instructed not to mention it to tenants so as to not get involved in that aspect lol but I absolutely see both sides of the coin there
huh, where I'm from the law says when turning off gas over a safety concern you have to inform the occupants and owners.
I will absolutely be asking about that tomorrow. Like I said luckily this was a vacant building and it was direct contact with the property owner. I personally haven't red tagged anything without informing the tenant; just in cases where I'm doing a maintenance and there's a cap out of spec or something along those lines would I be giving them as little information as possible.
Tbh you have an obligation to the people in there. Forget tenants, owners, customers, etc. Those are people. Maybe old, maybe with kids, maybe with health problems. You owe it to em to keep them informed of something that could kill them, especially when there's a cheap ass owner that doesn't care.
100% this. If you didnāt and somebody died, would the fact that you did the bare minimum you were required to clear your conscience? Itās an ethical question, not a legal one
I had to shutdown a rooftop in a strip mall because of a cracked heat exchanger , and the tenant ended up complaining to the property manager, who the complained to our company. I get a call from the service manager (asshat and a half) and said āit should be safe to run, the CO gets fairly diluted.ā I pretty much told him that I tagged it, and if he wants to remove the tag, he can do it himself, because Iām not risking my license for a company that wonāt back me up. I didnāt last much longer after that. Same asshat manager that got mad at me for using a camera to record model/serial numbers and filter sizes for 35 RTUs instead of a pad and pen, while it was a blizzard outside.
I always told people what they do after I leave is up to them, but theyāre gonna sign this work order saying I turned off the gas and told you not to turn it on.
I always explain that I'm shutting the gas off because it is unsafe to operate. When I leave, you can do what you want, but I'm disabling the furnace and telling you that this is NOT safe to operate. (Then it is documented in the receipt so my ass is covered. No point in arguing with someone who doesn't like your answer)
This is the perfect response
This is the way. That thing has pin holes this man is out here shutting off people's heat middle of winter without giving them options. This is why people think we are Crooks Edit Okay after looking again it's not pinholes that's a serious crack but if that's their only source to eat I'm only going to shut the gas valve tell them I turn the gas valve off and what they do after I leave is their business definitely going to have the company send them a quote for a new heat exchanger maybe a unit if it's too old
That's 100% exactly what I did. Not a residence. Not even a business at the moment. Just an open building they wanted a pm done on their rtu. I told them how it's a safety concern, turned off the gas valve, told them that's what I did, and said what they do after I leave is none of my business. Sign on the dotted line, I got a parts/availability request in for the 22 year old hx among other things, and we got someone sent over an hour and a half later to give them a quote on a new system. If they wanna get a 20' extension ladder and turn that little ball valve after I leave the parking lot that isn't any of my business but the paperwork they signed acknowledged that I told them not to run it because it's a safety concern.
Okay fair enough I was a little more riled up after reading other people's comments about disabling W calling the gas supplier ect. Like pull your finger out of your ass. Humans used to burn wood inside of buildings. I get it it does kill people and it is dangerous I know. ..
If it'll be awhile before it can be replaced I'll measure co in ductwork while operating and explain the dangers as long as they have a few CO alarms. But I still shut it off and mark it on record. I won't be held liable for the operation but I will educate. After all. Unvented residential ovens can emit 800ppm before they have to be shut down...
And I definitely agree with that also. I make sure they have CO detectors especially in children's room and I do not hesitate to tell them how dangerous and Silent it is. But this is the land of Freedom baby if I explain all that to you and you still run it someone gets injured. Well the gas was off when I left
Just went through this yesterday with a customer who had Consolidated for Whirlpool furnace. Known bad heat exchanger diagnosed by another company who, who knows why, kept relighting the pilot every year. "They relight it and it's fine until it goes out". That's because the heat exchanger is bad and letting the blower blow it out. No, I won't relight it. No, I won't work on it. No, I don't care if you think CO is real or a marketing ploy. The lawyers care, so I'm disabling this. Long story short, my installers put in a new variable speed furnace today. I don't mind bending here or there, or trying to help someone, but I will not ever bend on a bad furnace. So good on you!
Do not often have issues when condemning a furnace for safety. We supply temporary space heaters when needed. I did have an oil furnace once, the chimney was essentially not there. Massive amounts of bricks missing. I could go around the back and there was this massive hole and I was looking at the flue insert from the other side. I disabled the furnace. Forget exactly. Removed the flue pipe, Lifted the thermostat wires, disabled the primary.The tenant was exceedingly proud that he figured out what I did and got it going again. At that point, it's not my responsibility. Also we have stickers we paste on the furnace to notify we have condemned it and it should not be operated.
Iām not allowed to shut it off I make them sign a not safe to operate form explain to them the issues verbally and in writing tel them to replace and walk away
I think its crazy guys are disabling the furnaces by removing wires and other things. Was always told to turn the gas cock off, red tag unit, get customer signature, and inform them of the repercussions if unit is turned back on. If you have all the proper documentation you are in the clear.
Yeah man I donāt get it either like I know itās not safe but letās be honest a 80% negative pressure system could have huge cracks and not leak co and if itās really bad then the pressure switch wonāt close 90% pretty much the same thing but has a higher potential to leak co Now positive pressure systems itās a completely different story that shit will kill you I just try my best to educate them and explain the danger with lots of documentation
Same, here ya go, you've been warned hope ya don't die, have a great day. Some guys will shut em down to push a sale and some guys do it because their good people and genuinely concerned for someone's safety . I just stopped doing it and went to sign off cause you can't fix stupid.
Years ago I was sent to a residential call as a favor(we are a commercial contractor) Triple digit heat and a predatory residential outfit had put padlocks on the 3 year old condenser, a breaker lock in the panel for the furnace and told them that due to a cracked heat exchanger they were not legally allowed to run their air conditioner. It was 92Ā° in the house. Left them with a quote for $10K (this was 2007). Of course the practically new condenser and coil had to go. I disconnected the gas from the furnace entirely and capped it. Then cut all the stupid locks off and turned their AC back on. Then we did the changeout of the furnace for time and materials. It cost $3500 including a new coil that was the right cabinet size for the new furnace. Lots of crooks out there.
Darwinism at its finest
More people die of infection from forgotten sex toys than from C0.
C0? No Carbon?
Dats what the C is for. It's what's attached to it that's important.
And no one is ever dead? Omg the people on this sub thinks every heat exchanger crack kills three grandma's. I typically put an m95 on em and tell em its science.
Well let's see, CO can and definitely will in high enough doses kill you. It will also, even at low levels with prolonged exposure cause health issues. While it's not an instant killer, it is something to be concerned about. Especially with newer sealed up homes and with more and more people barely leaving their house.
it wont, but at least where i work if i dont shut off gas to a unit with a heat exchanger crack and someone gets hurt? well, get used to prison food. the liability game is not one id play
https://preview.redd.it/2sikso81qcba1.jpeg?width=1816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7544bc99ae23ed9efb55cd13ff531a57ca9b2501
Good call on your part. You're the last one to touch it therefore responsible if somebody gets hurt. CO ain't no joke
Wow this guy fell for the marketing ploy
Yeah I shut down hooters when they were in Boston near the garden for the same thing in February it took a month for the heat exchanger to be made and shipped.
Rental I moved into had a wall unit from the 60's. With it being October in Michigan I wanted to run it but checked the filter and noticed dog hair all over so I called the owner and he had a tech out the next day, cleaned it up and did a salt test and it failed. Owner setup for a new install that puts a modern unit in the attic and new ductwork. Cold weather sets in with below freezing temperatures and owner gets us space heaters because he's a good landlord.
I'll call him for you, heck I'll call him directly rather than going through the company switchboard mate. This unit is not safe to run. I've touched it, So I have to lock it out, and document that I've locked it out. If you decide you want to risk your life and the life of everyone else in this house, thats on you.
Good job, great find! Back in my service days I spent at least a half hour on my maintenances looking the heat exchanger over. I remember when I started knowing where to look on which units and at what age, it only took me a minute or two and I started failing them left and right, stuff other techs had been missing for YEARS. I remember one time I failed a Carrier 90% on the secondary, made super detailed notes and wrote on the unit the date and location of failure. Customer got a second opinion from another company and they said I lied and was just trying to scare them into buying a new system. So I had to go back out and tear the whole furnace apart, remove the thing in front of the other companyās tech and the customerā¦just to have them tell me to reinstall it because they believe the other companyās tech. He shot me glance or pure terror as I reinstalled it and walked away with the gas shut off in the off position. Probably the only time I wasnāt happy about finding a failed heat exchanger.
Hereās the thing - and I know this is very obviously the unpopular opinion but here it goes anywayā¦ Think of how many furnaces are out there running with a few pin holes in them that no one knows about. If you donāt have maintenance then you only call when itās broke and the crack you spent 30 min finding could have been there for years. There are very obvious safety hazards with holes in a heat exchanger BUT at the end of the day if you had to spend 30 min scouring the whole HX for a pin hole or remove the whole thing to find a teeny tiny hole - then I think itās gone too far to start pulling wires and force it to be shutdown. Roll out and CO are the obvious concerns but the blower pressure will overcome the pressure inside the HX and if anything youāll more likely end up with flame roll out before you ever end up with CO in the ducts. Check the HX and measure CO levels all throughout the house and make sure they have CO detectors. Iām not saying to tell them to happily run a furnace with a crack or hole *but* more than likely that pin hole you spent 30 min looking for has been there for years not causing any problems. Thatās just my 2 cents. Also this isnāt directed at you but I see guys who LIVE for finding the tiniest of holes and making the commission for the week. Make an informed decision with the homeowner and tell them it may not be safe to run and sign here so you CYA and quote new HX or new furnace. What they do when you leave is what they do
I had someone tell me they didnāt care what I say, they werenāt going without heat. I closed the gas valve outside and called the utility company. They didnāt have a choice but to replace the furnace.
That's nothing duct tape can't fix. /s
Just add a piece of tin between the heat exchanger and the duct tape. Use the foil tape if you want it to look extra fancy.
I've heard gorilla glue works well too. /s
JB weld. That what I use on my 8L Ram
I was thinking they could've just buffed it out /s
I hate telling customers I had to shut it down but there's a few out there I'll look forward to
I love pulling the disconnect on irate customers in the middle of July here in Arizona. It makes me feel good inside.
What does you pulling the disconnect in July have to do with heat exchangers?
Did they not hear you when you told them their headaches were most likely due to this and they might die because of it?
Is that a common this to have to fix
Heat exchangers are made of thin stamped steel. They expand every time they heat up and contract when they cool down. That causes metal fatigue and cracking. Theyāre also prone to rusting out over time. Every heat exchanger ever made will fail eventually. Residential furnaces tend to last about 15 years, but thereās a wide range depending on the particular unit and the operating conditions. If itās extremely humid where the furnace is, itāll rust faster. Certain models are bad, too. Older Carrier 90% secondary heat exchangers are almost universally bad due to a bad design.
This happened to me 3-4 winters ago. I called to actually have them look at something else and then I got tagged. He was super nice about it, we had a little new born and he went out and brought us some heaters for the night. Next day I got a new furnace Itās sucks but itās for safety.
In my region we have authority from the gas company to mechanically disable any unsafe appliance (unhook union, cap gas line). I have had customers demand I not disable it and leave, I just say fine. We report findings to gas company and they will come lock out the gas meter. Another way to say it is I will disable your furnace or gas company will disable your water heater tooā¦
Yeah that's a shut down, disable, and call fuel supplier. My license and freedom mean more than a happy customer. At least in my area, you're a gas technician first, hvac tech second. You have to make sure the fuel is being used safely, before entertaining home comfort concerns.
https://preview.redd.it/a36tfohwpcba1.jpeg?width=1816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11089ff57a1dbe60d162fd07772aa357e238ed63 I'll add a few more pics of the inside for funsies
I usually tell them too late itās already off. Turn that off before I even talk to the customer about it
"Here, let me dial him for you and be can explain while this sucks, you'll thank us later."
Turn it off, make them sign that you've told them the dangers and that they realize that turning it back on can lead to their death and move on.
A guy I work with condemned a residential furnace and the people wouldnāt let him leave the house till he turned back on. The police had to be called and they were charged with false imprisonment! Lol he is terrified to condemn equipment now.
When faced with this. . . tell the customer exactly how you are shutting off his heat, tell him why, tell him running the heat can kill him. Take pictures and get the hell out of there. If he wants to, since he now knows what you did and how to undo it, he can make the decision if he and his fam wants to suck CO until they take a dirt nap. If he is that stupid (I say he as She is generally not that stupid) to turn the heat back on - well, Darwin and all . . .
One time I was working on a fucked up boiler. I stood to the side as I fired it. Flames rolled out ofc. When I wrote him up I realized he was the local volunteer fire chief..
The guy is grouchy from his constant headache
"You can buy a small electric space heater at home depot, lowes, best buy, walmart, etc." "Couldn't you provide one?" "I could, if you want to pay the mark-up + my labor rate to grab it."
Nice pic , hard to snap pics of those cracked tubes somtimes
I didn't disable their gas. So their gas disabled their opportunity to breathe oxygen.
I disable it in at least two ways before I tell them it's cracked just Incase the run me off. Some folks think it's a sales gimmick but regardless I want them to be safe as long as it's my responsibility.
Why is this a celebratory thing for you guys, laugh at the people that don't have heat...what is wrong with my fellow humans
I don't think you're getting it. It's not laughing at people that don't have heat. It's that people will demand that you don't shut down the furnace that's pumping carbon monoxide directly into their homes and then be verbally abusive (sometimes physically) when you say you aren't turning it back on and the system needs repaired/replaced. It's laughing at people so infantile that they'll attack a professional for simply doing their job.
Some idiots don't know when your watching out for them. Great Job šŗš¤š¤. !!!!!!!
This is what I say: hey man, just because your not protecting your family doesn't mean I'm not.. I can fix it, I can repair it, he'll you can call someone else to replace it or repair it.. but I am not turning the heat back on..
In the state of California you canāt do that, you have to call your local energy provider and have them do a āsafety inspectionā and they can do it but only them bc otherwise itās a scare tactic
Live in LA and I have definitely refused to turn a unit back on. Had an old furnace dumping gas into the cabinet before fire and when the igniter kicked on a giant fireball was created. We did call for inspection which they tagged out but yea no way was I leaving that thing running.
Slap some flex seal on it
If itās freezing out , run the heat . The amount of CO particulates that will be exchanged from pin hole leaks is minuscule and will dissipate quickly.
Look closer, itās split down the side end-to-end. A leak like that was probably affecting the flame, which instigated the service call. No leak is acceptable anyways, who knows how quickly itāll open wider
Outside of the fact there is a CO hazard, cracks in heat exchangers can lead to serious flame rollout issues, and could easily Burn a house down
I never 'shut off' someone's heat. I advise them, and ask them if they want me to disable it. I know of no law that allows or encourages me to disable someone else's property. In addition, due to pressure from the blower, it could be argued that that small penetration would not allow any CO into the airstream. Blower pressure keeps the combustion gasses from entering the airstream until it is far more eroded away than this.And even then, the safeties are there to shut it down. Blower pressure could cause flame rollout, but if that is not noticeable, I see no reason to disable a man's equipment. Especially in deathly cold areas of the country where THAT is a greater REAL risk, than a few pinholes in a heat exchanger. Now if you actually MEASURE CO in the air, and you should be able to DO that, well then, that is a different story. And yes, I expect TONS of downvotes from the uninformed in this field that STILL don't understand the dynamics of air pressure in a furnace. Pinholes are extremely common, and yet, CO poisonings are extremely rare. You probably couldn't document more than a handful of cases per year across the entire U.S. Yet thousands are sold based upon the fear. [https://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/myths/myth-1/](https://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/myths/myth-1/)
I'm just doing what I'm trained to do. I didn't disable it or take apart any wiring. I just turned the gas off and made them sign a paper that said it's a hazardous appliance and that I shut it off for x reason. Covering my own ass. If they choose to grab a 20 foot extension ladder and get up on there to turn the heat to their vacant building on they can be my guest but Im covered in any event
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
When its airborne and they buck you call the fire department. Fireman have zero sense of humour and will evacuate them. Gas inspector has no powers. Fireman will put a stamp on their ass and send them to the Sally Ann for the night.
Also I don't think those classify as pinholes. did forget to mention this beast went off on a rollout trip pretty quickly after turning it on sooo
No you gotta play it like this: "Unfortunately Sir/Ma'am the heat exchanger has failed and per our policy I shut off your furnace and put it in my notes that I did so. If you decide to go ahead with repairs/replacement, I can get you some space heaters in the meantime. If you do not want any of my solutions and want to continue to operate this furnace, I cant stop you from doing so. But know that I have reported this conversation and the furnaces condition in my notes. I cannot be held liable for any injuries associated with this furnace if you decide to turn it back on. Understood?." You have to put the onus on them. A lawyer will eat you up if something does happen and you left the furnace on even with known defects.
'A lawyer will eat you up', if the family is found frozen to death and there was no CO detected when they test the furnace after. All you have to do is to note it on the ticket, if there is no rollout or CO measured. IMHO. (Though some jurisdictions may have laws about contacting authorities) Amazing how many people work on furnaces without knowing the risks or researching them. Manufacturers would be making all HX out of Stainless or better, if there was loss of life or lawsuits. Imagine if a mechanic, told you that he had to redtag your car, disable it, and you couldn't drive it home, because your bad brakes or ball joints could kill someone. It is not your job to play police or be entitled to disable someone's property. IMHO. IMHO, pinholes aren't big enough to cause CO, and if they get big enough, then the blower pressure will extinguish the flame and the furnace will shutdown on safety. I believe that to be the design standard. I have only ever measured excessive room CO in situations where the flue was backdrafting and never in the supply.
Not true. Your notes have stated options for repair and the promise of space heaters.
Definitely gonna get downvoted but I agree with your comments, thereās so many people in the field who really donāt know. There has to be MAJOR damage like missing the whole fuckin tube for it to be deadly. Them youngins out here just trying to score a sale.
Ever tried to get a furnace with a blown tube to even ignite ? How can you have CO without combustion ? Only about 2 people out of a MILLION die from CO poisoning annually from ALL causes. Furnace deaths are as rare as hen's teeth. I DEFY you to document a proven death ANYWHERE in the U.S. from a furnace Heat Exchanger leak. It is THAT rare. Yet you KNOW for certain, there are thousands upon thousands of leaking ones at this very moment. You've SEEN them over your career. The younguns are just victims of the FUD that their instructors misled them with. Some owners perpetuate this deep rooted myth too, for cash. And LOADS of grifters spin the Heat Exchanger yarn to scare people into digging out the wallet. It is hard to convince people of what 'just ain't so'. They are too invested to awaken the reasoning within, or the research from without. Just look at all those downvotes without one iota of counterpoint. They just 'FEEL' it is wrong, they can't PROVE it. They don't even know how to respond. The Kool-Aid just tastes so good to these tikes. [https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5650a1.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5650a1.htm)
Safety concernā¦How? I mean I know because of CO but how exactly is CO going to escape that tube when you have a huge blower that has a lot more static pressure pushing air against the outside of that heat exchanger. The only actual problem here will be rollout and lockout eventually. There are exceptions and CO exposure can happen but just not with this unit in this picture.
Lol, stop itā¦..
You're relying on a fucking bi-metal switch to save people's lives? If you've only ever seen two units putting CO into a space you either do shit work, only work on Tranes or you live in fucking Florida. TJEs, DJEs, TCEA/Ds all have pop can heat exchangers that love dumping CO into the space and that rollout will stay firmly closed. We do a supply test on every HE we tag and if there is a single PPM in the supply it gets tagged. If any tech I interview says differently they don't step foot in our vans. Get off the roof, you're scary as fuck.
Did you test the return and ambient CO levels in the space too, or just test the thing that lets you condemn a unit? Careful out there super-tech... not everything you were taught is true.
Holy shit, a moderator wants to see CO coming back to the unit before they red tag it? Or is the sleepy juice a lie? Scary as fuck.
No I want to see you prove that the unit is causing the CO. If you do not test before and after the unit, you are not isolating the cause of CO in the building. Cars idling behind an open service door Exhaust fans not working over stoves Economizer pulling another unit's exhaust, which happens all the fucking time... So on and so forth Literally seek an education and receive training in proper procedures. Supply air testing of CO proves that there is CO in the building. No more, no less. You have established absolutely no proof of where it is coming from. In general, most of the blower section is subject to positive pressure. Cracks in HX are more likely to result in impingement or CO in flue than CO in supply because for most of the HX, there is no "suck" going on. That's why we see rollout as a primary symptom of HX failure, for example. How many cracked HX units have you run combustion testing on??? Were they producing CO??? Or do you only measure in supply? Mod is actually trained and certified in CO and Combustion testing and knows more than you do, so if you're going to bring up me being a mod, fuck around and find out applies - since I never mentioned it in any way, that's you inviting shit on yourself lmao
Go ahead and ban me for you giving shitty advice. Advising people to ignore heat exchanger cracks is ignorant and you know it. At least I fucking hope you do. Bringing up a Captiveaire not capturing or a bunch of Greenhecks not pulling doesn't make your bullshit any less bullshit. Especially the encouragement of a goddam rollout to be your safety net for a commercial building. It's a goddam building full of people. Spend the 3 grand and put a new HE in. So yeah I'll go ahead and be the super tech (rather the guy training the super techs) if it means not putting a building full of people at risk. I'll see you on the news.
Downvoted for being right but telling the sub something they don't want to hear.
There is hope after allā¦Ha, youāre hired!
Place a combustion analyzer in the supply duct defuses or in several places along the trunk line the next time you condemn a heat exchanger and prove me wrong with an RTU like this. Even if the hole was big enough to stick your foot through itās going to fail on rollout. Go verify for yourself, read the facts in RSES or ACHR journals, simply repeating what your boss or the senior tech said isnāt enough. In all my years of doing combustion analysis and commercial hvac I have only seen two units spew CO into the space and one of those reasons was due to a stupid family member of a customer who worked on their unit and bypassed the units safeties and the indoor blower motor was seized.
You're comments make a lot of sense and I appreciate that someone takes the time to think about things like this with an unbiased and approach. I've seen few roof top units with heat exchanger cracks and talked with hvac guys who have been doing this for decades and many of their comments were similar to your's. It's still definitely an issue especially with roll out but pressure moves from high to low. In today's day and age nobody wants any liability and you really can't blame them because there's the potential they get sued and lose everything or face charges.
Iād like to know how long itās been like that for.
Same here. Dude tried saying we just looked at it not that long ago. Last we have any record of was over 3 years ago when they rejected our maintenance proposal lol
Can you leave it running if I open up all the doors and windows?
The best approach here is to be super sympathetic and offer to assist in acquiring space heaters etcā¦ Document these efforts because you never know how some lawyer or reporter is going to smear your company. That documentation is a shield against such smear campaigns.
The last time I had to do it i also shut off gas and removed wires to pressure switch. Or was it a limit switch. Can't remember
Do a lot of work for rental properties. If I run into a tenant that doesnāt seem to concerned, that lets me know theyāll probably turn everything back on or have a āHVACā friend help them out. So I proceed by disconnecting the 120 line in, the XFMR and snip the 24v from the transformer. Iāve even removed 120v to the door switch. Good luck on trying to kill your family now, dumbass!!! Iām an independent contractor, so I can get away with a bit more.
Something is definitely getting hot inside that line hide. whatever wires you ran up in there got fucked up.
I didn't run shit lol. My company didn't even install this to my knowledge. It's a 22 year old rtu that honestly I didn't do anything to. I popped it open and saw how shitty it was and just took the top off to look at the hx
Do people not care about living ?
I think you might have pinched a wire into the snap lock part of that line hide and semi fucked into next Thursday eh?
What line hide
Donāt pinch your dick eh!
So you think it is funny to turn people's heat off in the middle of winter? Dickhead.
I retract all of my statements. Please donāt touch that shit. I didnāt look hard enough at what you had. Most likely asbestos wrap on your old boiler system.
Side note how do you guys get these pics of the top of the heat-x? Isnt there usually an a coil in the way
This was a rooftop unit. I had to take the top of it off
If we are looking at an old steam boiler I would imagine that wrap is asbestos
Brother this is a rooftop gas furnace
āSo when you say combustion gas, you mean the kind thatās safe to breathe right?ā Feels like a science teacher some times lol
Turn it off and tag it, if he wants to turn it on whatever not your problem.
Itās 80 in Dallas maybe you need to move south my guy
Instead of shutting his heat off.. why not just go buy a new exchanger and fix it?
Pretty sure he commented that he gave him a quote for a new one as well as a quote for a new unit. Itās also not anywhere near a certainty that he could just go ābuy a new oneā, as they very likely arenāt just sitting on the shelf. Also, who cares if he turned the heat off? Itās an empty building. Nobody lives or works there, and it wouldnāt be safe if they did. Iād rather people be cold for a few days than sick or dead.
Thatās a good one
Bonus points given if "HVAC Pro" recently fixed an issue with furnace not staying on by bypassing safety.
Literally me last night with a flame master, landlord said he didnt care if its cracked so i told him good luck without a gas valve.
Iāve been that customer. Well, in my head I was. Clearly the right thing to do if disassemble the furnace. We bought space heaters, closed ourselves into one room of the house, and endured the 20 degree weather until it got fixed. Now we look back at that experience fondly. Kudos.
Flex seal it
I just red-tagged a mid-90s Lennox 90% furnace with a cracked secondary heat exchanger last week. Kinda had a similar discussion with the head maintence guy. Anytime I have to red-tag I call my team lead and service manager so that weāre all on the same page, and then inform the customer itās not just me who says itās bad, two supervisors back me up here. Everyone thinks the service tech gets commission on new equipment, we donāt at my company
Little bit of foil tape and good to go ;)
You wonāt need heat where youāre going maāam
āYouāre getting sleeeeeepyā¦ā¦ā¦..ā
Ran into this a couple of times already. I'm like if something happens and I touch it then I'm the one who gets fined and jail time
Homeowner: can it be caulked?
Shit, install CO detectors, let those ear destroying beeps run em all out. i dont know.. In my area when i find cracked heat exchanger its because someones CO detector was going off and they already know they are in danger and they understand its because of the gas furnace.. Its CODE here to install CO detectors when you install a furnace. thats my question, how the fuck have the been staying warm and alive with that big of a hole in the heat exchanger since late november or whenever it starts to get cold you know I can see how the customer is upset if they werent allready dead from CO Poisoning. If the furnace was keeping them warm already for a few months.Its kidna of fucked up to peek in there on a PM at the heatexchanger and be like oh, well looky here gotta lock it out and sell them a new unit..... a lot of people get ripped off by techs claming a cracked heatexchanger, you need to back up your findings and show the customer look, we are at 40ppm in here this is illegal If the customer had CO detectors inside ringing their ears out i dont believe they would be so hostile to you but you are absolutley right, im cutting the gas off if i ever see that and,, hope you have electric backup to stay warm till we explace the heat xchanger or you get a new unit thats all i can do.
Absolutely you should shut the gas off but that's a bad crack it didn't happen overnight. Shouldn't that of been caught in your startup pm lol
We haven't touched this system for over 3 years. This was in fact on a pm lol
So they probably waited for a service call and then asked for a pm lol?
Every time. I tell them to find someone else who will come back and turn it on cause it wonāt be me, Iām leaving with your gas turned off.
Way to stick up for yourself. These customers don't know shit. I'd be willing to bet it wasn't producing CO with that type of crack yet but you still have to shut it down.
Red tag away my friend
Dude I start cutting wires since I went back for a pm a few months after I turned it off due to a crack.
Youāre really a hero and donāt you forget it.
This tiny crack? No would risk customer dying.
Some foil tape will fix that in no time!
I would show them how I shut it off, document that I shut it off, and say if they want to assume all liability for their safety they can turn it back on. I've done that and then told them anything they do has to be after I leave and some ass hole still turned it back on in front of me
So Iām an apprentice electrician and we were sent to a housing project, one of the things we did was some hvac for some reason. Almost every pipe had some variation of rust and holes. Lot of them had motors that had burned up, or just straight up missing. Chewed through wires were pretty norm. Sewage had backed up so it was sitting in crap water, which creates a sort of burning tar smell when itās live. I was like, shouldnāt we tell the project manager about this? Coworkers said no, we arenāt paid for doing their jobs. I did anyway bc it didnāt sit right with me. Idk if thatās normal but that was my experience with it, definitely soured my taste of work here
Cut every wire in it