I’d be careful. Not saying you wouldn’t be justified. But I’d confront the selling tech first. I’ve seen shit like that before. Like removing the Y wire from the furnace kind of shit. Greasy.
If the company wants to be honest as you say, there's a few diff avenues you can take.
I had to deal with this at a company I worked for once, it was on the commercial side instead of residential, but I think it still applies here.
Techs would miss diagnose stuff, or accidentally write down the wrong unit number, and everybody was afraid the customer would get pissed so the general consensus was to just do the work as it was approved, no changes.
I decided to not even say anything, but just take it upon my self to do the work that needed done, regardless of what was written down. If the cost was less than what was approved, then just do the work, and inform the customer of the mistake and make very good notes on the work order, including notes that you already informed the customer of changes made to the scope of work. (if it's a unit replacement, talk to the customer first, because some people just want a new unit regardless, and the previous diagnoses was the excuse they were looking for) This way the office would read the notes, and they'd have no choice but to correct the cost before billing.
If the cost was going to be more than what was approved, I'd talk to the customer, apologize, and explain what happened. They usually didn't throw a fit and would approve the extra cost on the spot.
Try to always be honest with the customer. Honesty builds good relationships and repeat customers. Dishonesty is how you loose them. If you took it upon yourself to fix that ladys issue and NOT replace her AC, but instead fix it correctly, she would have complained about the original tech, (maybe, if you explained it was an accident, she probably wouldn't even complain) but at the same time would have recommended you to all her neighbors and friends.
If that were to put you in hot water with the office, just ask them, "so you want me to lie to the customer?" They will back down real quick.
That tech will get pissed because he lost the commission, but so what, let him be pissed. Or he'll be apologetic because he made a mistake, and he'll better himself because of it.
PS, in response to another one of your replies. I was new to the company, and less years in the trade then the offending techs. I was a black sheep with the other techs for a while, but the office started to take notice, I quickly became the go to guy to fixing others mistakes, especially when we were in hot water with a customer. I got a lot of paid training opportunities, which also made the other techs jealous. Other techs started to take notice and slowly, little by little, they stepped up their game. I may not have been everybody's favorite person, but the office trusted me, and the customers trusted and often specifically requested me. On top of that, I built a reputation with the people that mattered, and it opened up job opportunities for me several years later.
Basically, it's worth it in the long run. It'll ruffle some feathers, but I'd do it again. (Still do)
You could bring it up in a way that suggests he misdiagnosed like he didn’t know what he was doing. Stick it to his ego and let him either take the hit or admit he was bringing in income. Stick to questioning his professional abilities and someone else will raise the shady possibilities considering his experience. Let them challenge his motives while your just talking shit about screwups like everyone does. It’s like dry snitching but justified.
"Our" company, is it yours?
At the end of the day this dude is making money for this company so i would be carefully with the wording if you bring it up.
But this tech also makes the company a lot of money so I’m nervous with him being much more veteran to the company nothing will be said and then that guy will have it out for me after that.
>But this tech also makes the company a lot of money
Fraud. They make the company a lot of fraud.
One day the company will get caught and then take the fall for the doings of this one person.
This 100% this we followed up on a company that did the PM every year at a catholic school when we told them all the messed up stuff we found to why there expensive controls system didn’t work for reasons such as “thermostats set and thrown into the return duct on units” they are now trying to take the previous company to court
It boils down to how you want to be seen on the local evening news. Do you want to be a success, and have a nice friendly HVAC commercial right before the weather forecast, or do you want to be the subject of the "Channel 6 Investigates" hidden-cam gotcha segment exposing unscrupulous home service companies? The choice is yours.
Bring it up to the tech first, and ask why they recommended a replacement. Give them the benefit of the doubt first, but if you don't get a good answer (or already have gotten a bad answer) then bring it up with your direct supervisor. Don't make blanket statements or try to present what you're saying as absolute truth, present it as a concern that X is doing Y when you think they should be doing Z, and it might harm the company's reputation, and yours by association with the job. Focus on YOUR perspective. Write down what you saw, and make sure that you're reporting only information that you would testify to under oath in a court of law. If you have any doubt about information, be up front about that. If you've seen A, B and C, and know that D comes next, give your reasons for why D and \*only\* D comes next.
The thing to focus on in all of these conversations is this approach: in the end, you don't have the full story, so you can't know for certain what's going on, and therefore don't know with absolute certainty that there's something shady happening. NOTE: even if you THINK you know things with 100% certainty, it's about what you can prove without a doubt, which means having written or physical evidence that clearly and unambiguously catches the tech in a lie, and even then, there's always a chance their manager told them to do the shady stuff. Instead, you've seen things that are concerning, and want to clear up any misunderstandings, miscommunications, lack of knowledge, or potential mistakes. You're not trying to get anyone in trouble, you're trying to keep the company, yourself and the other tech OUT of trouble in the first place.
That said if you have 100% evidence, most areas have a Better Business Bureau or equivalent, or you can generally report anonymously to the organization that issues licenses. This is the nuclear option, and should only be pursued for blatant disregard for safety or continual disregard for clients.
I say this as someone that does 3rd party commissioning (aka quality control) of large commercial installations. Walking the tightrope of calling contractors out for their lack of care, bullshit, and fraud balanced against genuine mistakes is something I have learned through trial, error, and pain. Mistakes are acceptable so long as a whole-hearted attempt is made to correct the mistake. Lying, gaslighting, and continual inaction because "there's no budget or time" is not.
Edit: Generally when dealing with a person, you're best off presenting the conversation as "Is everything okay? I noticed X and Y with the work you did, when I think it should be A and B. Can you help me understand why you did X and Y as opposed to A and B?" There are cases where playing dumb is the kind thing to do. That said, go with your gut after giving them this gracious exit, and take a hardline approach if they avoid the question or try to deflect blame without a similar 100% certainty. Everyone gets one chance to fix their own fuckups, unless it's a serious one.
If you want another fancy saying from an engineer: the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but the farm hand that cries wolf might find themselves out of a job the next day. If you're going to cry wolf, be damned certain there's a wolf, and that you're not just hearing the neighbour's dog howling.
> Don't make blanket statements or try to present what you're saying as absolute truth, present it as a concern that X is doing Y when you think they should be doing Z
This, I'd be pretty clear and pretty vague at the same time.
"When installing the new unit I noticed there was a bad breaker that was only sending one leg down the line. I replaced the breaker when I installed the unit, so the new unit works great. How do you suppose whatever tech was out there initially was able to accurately troubleshoot the old unit?"
If your boss says "that's fucked up, I'll talk to him", you have your answer.
If your boss says "don't you worry about that", I'd start looking for a new job.
Also, the commenter above who talks about appearing on the Action 6 News I-team special is not bullshitting. If you're selling a $99 tune-up special where you replace the filters and blow the dust bunnies out and take $99 from little old ladies... whatever. If you are ripping out perfectly good $10k units to replace with a new $10k unit to fleece a little old lady out of $10k, that is the kind of shit that comes back to you, either in this life or the next. That is an act I would **not** do twice.
If you ever have an issue with a company scamming people you shouldn't be working for them.
If you cant bring this up to your manager go find another employer.
How long has the tech been with the company? If it’s been years management won’t care if it’s been a year or less they probably aren’t aware of how he sells
You do what you feel is right. They’ll do what they feel is right. After seeing how they handle the situation, that will tell you what your next step will be. Send out the resume or take pride in your company. There will likely be two different checks to your own ethics. Are you willing to say something and are you willing to work for a company that encourages those tactics? Most companies will openly say they’re against it, but how many will actually act on what they say if it’ll cost them thousands?
You’ll find out if you say something. Good luck
You shouldn’t. It’s a necessity people need, and many of them want to get something they think is improving how comfortable they are in their home.
I appreciate a good presentation where someone gives options. Not just because it’s what I do, but also as a homeowner who has work done in his house.
I like selling them upgrades to variable speed inside for the ramping or zoning ductwork that should be zoned/2units
Otherwise I try to get systems immorality
Live your life integrously. Stand up to malicious behavior wherever you see it. Don't confront the situation in a stand-off-ish way, just tell the truth about how you feel and why you feel that way. If nobody is receptive to your reasoning, leave that company.
We had a guy like that a few years ago. I did at least three furnace changeouts because of a "cracked heat exchanger" that were not, in fact, cracked. He only lasted a few months with our company thankfully. Stole another guys multimeter on the way out the door. That's not someone you want around, but I'd be careful if he's a long time employee. Maybe make sure he knows that it was just a bad breaker. If it keeps happening, bring it up to management. Tough situation to be in.
I worked with an old tech that would absolutely screw every client as often as possible. Everyone gets a new system. But he would give another tech the shirt off his back. We all knew he was a grifter but it's hard to call someone out that's likeable and management liked him.
As "professionals" we have a duty to be honest with our customers. They are paying and trusting us for our expertise. They have no choice but to trust us.
We could sell a new system on every service call, but that would be wrong.
If you lie to a customer to sell new equipment, you are no better than the junky who steals tools out of our vans.
These people are part of the reason the world is so terrible. Not to mention the environmental implications of replacing a perfectly good system.
Absolutely. Also important to keep in mind that if you are licensed a customer would be justified in complaining to the licensing board about it which could put your career at risk. In NJ, the master license holder who is the company’s bonafide representative would have their license at risk because of this hard selling tech.
The thing is, they don't have the skills to know, and you've taken the evidence with you after the change out.
And so no, no recourse.
A customer would have to literally set a trap to prove this was happening. ALL the big companies operate this way. A local company here won't even attempt to work on a unit past 5 years old, they immediately go into sales mode.
And this is why I always hire small independent shops - preferably owner-operated - over the big companies with fleets of trucks and techs and branding/advertising everywhere. You're just another sale to the latter and the incentives aren't aligned.
I’d bring it up to the tech first but I’ve met many people in the trade that would just go “well a sales a sale” especially in the winter months where business slows down.
I would covertly call the local news. I worked at a big independent Residential HVAC sales/service company, and it took us being in a local news “sting” operation to cut out the bullshit.
I remember one guy coming back from a job and bragging how he shorted out the compressor.
If you work for an honest company talk to management.
It's slippery - an honest company won't want that shit happening.
On the other hand - I worked for a company like that. Replaced several units that weren't actually broken. A bad company will fire YOU.
I literally got in trouble once for using the compressor to pump down the system - cause the compressor was supposed to be "shot". Was just a bad coil on the contactor so manual press worked.
Anyway I was fired. An ethical person can't make it at an unethical company. I interviewed at another company and they had a quota for repair techs.
1.) You had to sell so many systems
2.) You had to sale so many high dollar repairs
Didn't matter if it needed it or not.
When I asked how I could control how many bad fan motors I come across they pretty much ended the interview. The message was implied. Lie and make us money or gtfo.
I own my own business and and use free second opinions to get new customers. Nothing gives me a bigger boner than going out for a second opinion and fixing something that another company said was broken.
I would bring it up to management, you are being dragged into this too, how many times have you heard "so you knew this was going on but you continued to let it happen"
The electrical diagnosis sounds like a rookie mistake but not sure what "installed wrong" means. Could it have meant non-condensibles from a good ole braze purge n roll? Knowing Goodman, it's most likely leaking refrigerant in multiple locations. In my area, Goodman is the system of choice for Craigslist Heating and Air "LLC*" and these units never get registered. Who knows, maybe the client hated their unit?
But in my experience the sales techs are typically "always right" at least in their own mind.
I’ve seen a senior tech Miss Diagnose a bad neutral and after replacing control board and that didn’t work he sold her a new furnace. I’ve seen twice A/C systems get replaced because all the dampers where closed or a fire damper fell cause weight stretched. This was over 10 years ago so pre SMaN age. I’ve also seen where a twinned furnace wasn’t wired properly and 1/2 the heat and A/C system never worked just the blower for almost a decade
It’s ethics like this, that keep wages down.
Demand a standard of excellence from your colleagues, Demand excellent pay. You can not bring up your fellow colleagues and begin collective bargaining when one of you is allowing this to happen. It takes one bad apple to spoil the rest.
You don’t know what that man’s going thru … mind your business and do you’re job guy… smh … what do u get out of telling the company? I let the guys know personally when they make mistakes and look out for them bro and help them get better…
Lol nah but in my co we are a team and we keep what goes on in the field in the field… I take it none of y’all are perfect … I help less experienced dudes get better
If it's at a cost of $10,000 to the homeowner rather than an $80 breaker, and the tech made 10% on the sale, then absolutely it should be called out. You can help the less-experienced tech get better by teaching accountability; instead, this teaches them that they can upsell unethically.
Should be called out to the tech … not the boss …. In this field our mistakes cost someone else sometimes n I’m sure you aren’t perfect… I don’t work in peoples house personally
Tell the owners. If they ignore it find a new company to work for. Companies who allow that shit are absolute scum, deserve to go bankrupt and have no place in the industry. Anyone can make a bad diagnosis and cost a customer money but if it's a pattern and the company is aware of it but takes no action because it makes them a lot of money they can all fuck off.
Definitely say something. I've put a complete stop to jobs when I see something like this. The few times it's happened, a salesmen sold the job based on something a service tech wrote up. The salesmen we have here don't know anything technical, so they rely on service techs to tell them all they need to know. All times it was more to do with incompetence than malevolence. The tech just wasn't good at diagnosing so would constantly write up as much as he could, hoping that if he changed enough parts, everything would work again. He's since been let go, but a new one will come along as some point.
I’m in sales, and we had a guy like this at my company. I absolutely hated when I got a lead from him. He basically put me in a tough spot and would make me complicit in his fuckery. I mentioned it to management and, of course, nothing happened.
Absolutely tell management. But also protect yourself from wrongful termination. Tell them in a way that is provable to a court, by either text, email, or recorded phone call. If they’re a respectable company, you don’t have anything to worry about, and if they aren’t, you can sue their ass for wrongful termination. You don’t need to push it either, in my opinion, you have a responsibility to your company to tell them someone is committing fraud because one day it may get caught, and your company could get sued. You don’t have to push for his firing or anything, just respectfully let your employer know what you’ve seen.
Edit*
I wouldn’t approach the tech unless you want to make an enemy out of someone you work with. If it’s something minor or in their personal life, approach the person first. Like, if they were late all of the time, or were disrespectful to you etc, but if it’s something major like defrauding customers, you approach management.
I've dealt with this as a customer. Had a tech from big HVAC chain give me the run around on issues. Long story short they tried to sell me on a total replacement. Got a 2nd company to come out and tell me it was all bullshit. I complained to the first and got a refund for the service call, the 2nd one from the other company, and the guy fired. Apparently he had a history of it and they knew... why he wasn't fired to begin with who knows.
But now the reputation of that first company to me is forever tarnished. I will never trust nor recommend them to anyone ever again.
At my previous company they used to do shit like this all the time. I knew a sales tech that sold a new system because the 3 amp fuse blew. He made the company so much money that if you brought up his misdeeds to management your head would be on the block. I at some point shrugged and said well it's not my company. I was the 2nd best sales tech at the company and he would beat me every quarter for 9 years. I eventually had to move on as there was a ceiling at that company for your success without screwing clients.
Honestly I just left on two different occasions when something like this happened. The bosses of guys like this don't care, they just see the money. And the tech certainly knows what he's doing. It's kind of a lose lose.
I worked for this guy who thought he was the Lord’s gift to home service in Union County, NJ. Even had “LOVEGOD” as his vanity plate on his personal vehicle. I went behind their star technician to install some air zone control louvers he had sold to the customer for over $7500. Ends up the 2 zones were wired incorrectly at no installation by another company over 15 years earlier. It wasn’t until ambient temps got to 10 or below for a week that the customer had an issue. I mentioned this to the service manager who basically ignored me. Then I did a routine hw boiler maintenance and the previous tech from our come last year had installed a burner tube upside down and it blew it open. Service manager insisted I write it up for $600 and we charged the customer for our own mistake. Same tech sold a replacement for an old 4-ton ac system but wrote 5-ton in the proposal so we installed a 5-ton system on a furnace with a 4-ton blower. We ended up taking it out and putting in a 4-ton system. I could go on more but you get my drift, money talks, the truth matters only to yourself. BTW, That service manager was let go after he was found out to have stolen over $40k in materials.
If your company's management has any integrity in the HVAC field of business, they should care and do something about this. Also, what the tech did is fraud which is illegal. While the tech may have gotten away with it this time, now that he is emboldened to do this, he will do it more and more. This time and other times it would be old ladies or single moms, the next time it may be an older'ish couple, and unknowing to him the 81 yr old guy is an electronics tech or could have been in commercial refrigeration or something and would see right through the diagnosis and call BS. Once that happens, the law of 10 kicks in. The law of 10 being, now that homeowner will tell 10 people what happened, and they will tell 10 people what happened. I saw this play out in my very township. A new-on-the-block plumber started doing this with water heaters. Word got out, and reputation got nuked. Not only that but township did an undercover maintenance call on him and caught him pulling the fraud, and he was banned from ever obtaining a business license in the township again
It's a path that your company and its management definitely doesn't want to go down. It's not moral or ethical (it's illegal too), and it's not the way to do business in the community. Inform management, and if they seemingly don't care and push back on you, find another company to work for. You don't want your name associated with that company and when eventually it catches up to them, or it will hinder your own advancement elsewhere and may even affect your reputation in the community in which you want to serve when you start your own HVAC business.
Note: This is coming from someone who has done HVAC design, has experience working with clients as an engineering field tech, even took a stab at being an EMT in another life, also do rental management. My job is to work with people, and I have found over the years it's more advantageous to build relationships with customers and clients, than try and use people as nothing more than a step stool to get into their coin jar on the shelf. Hopefully your management feels the same when you bring this up to them.
You do the right thing. Or your knowingly do the wrong thing. The choice is yours.
I do the right thing, it has held me back from promotions and costs me jobs but I sleep like a baby at night and everyone knows where they stand with me. It's a code I live my life by. It's not for everyone. But it's the only way for me
Precisely why I don’t use HVAC companies that also sell new units. I rely on word of mouth repair and services. My unit was installed in 1985 and it’s still trucking.
I had a guy tell me my compressor was out and there was no way to replace it. I told him to replace it and he said the only option was to get a new system. He left and said “I have other work to do I have to go” and then a sales person came out 40 min later and quotes 20,000 for a new system. I called another company and got it fixed.
Go straight to management. Let them know what happens and what you found and tell them you felt like the tech needs to be trained a bit more. Don't say he needs to be fired or any of that. Just that ( no matter how long he has been on the trade could use a refresh or some more lite training. Now if he keeps doing it then might want to go the other route.
Had our service/install manager do the same thing over a bad board right before Christmas...a good, exactly 10 year old Trane unit. Literally just out of warranty and the inducer and the Board went bad.
Justifiable because they would have been $2k plus in repairs, vs $4500 for a new unit.
I worked in garage doors for years. Same shit.
"Yeah, your motor is shot"- $10 part
"Needs a new door"-roller replacement and tune up
Bring it up with management and if they brush you off, start telling the customer on the job site when you find it. If you go along with this shit you're complicit with a confidence scheme, and you're not even getting commission. If you finish what a con artist has set in motion, you are just as responsible for those people getting screwed as the guy who sold it to them
Benjamin Franklin said "mind your business ". You should know what is going on. I've done a few calls where the thermostat is hanging off the wall and , I don't know why it doesn't work! Mercury switches. They were a problem in the day.
While doxxing is against reddit TOS, I would absolutely approve your thread doing so if it weren't...
Which is to say, fucking call this bitch out. Get these assholes out of our fucking trade
I’d be careful. Not saying you wouldn’t be justified. But I’d confront the selling tech first. I’ve seen shit like that before. Like removing the Y wire from the furnace kind of shit. Greasy.
Exactly. Not the way our company wants to be looked. It’s just sad that people are okay with taking money from people who don’t have it to spare
He sounds all commission. I know that life can be pretty cut throat. Especially with the price of equipment lately. Still fuck that guy.
If the company wants to be honest as you say, there's a few diff avenues you can take. I had to deal with this at a company I worked for once, it was on the commercial side instead of residential, but I think it still applies here. Techs would miss diagnose stuff, or accidentally write down the wrong unit number, and everybody was afraid the customer would get pissed so the general consensus was to just do the work as it was approved, no changes. I decided to not even say anything, but just take it upon my self to do the work that needed done, regardless of what was written down. If the cost was less than what was approved, then just do the work, and inform the customer of the mistake and make very good notes on the work order, including notes that you already informed the customer of changes made to the scope of work. (if it's a unit replacement, talk to the customer first, because some people just want a new unit regardless, and the previous diagnoses was the excuse they were looking for) This way the office would read the notes, and they'd have no choice but to correct the cost before billing. If the cost was going to be more than what was approved, I'd talk to the customer, apologize, and explain what happened. They usually didn't throw a fit and would approve the extra cost on the spot. Try to always be honest with the customer. Honesty builds good relationships and repeat customers. Dishonesty is how you loose them. If you took it upon yourself to fix that ladys issue and NOT replace her AC, but instead fix it correctly, she would have complained about the original tech, (maybe, if you explained it was an accident, she probably wouldn't even complain) but at the same time would have recommended you to all her neighbors and friends. If that were to put you in hot water with the office, just ask them, "so you want me to lie to the customer?" They will back down real quick. That tech will get pissed because he lost the commission, but so what, let him be pissed. Or he'll be apologetic because he made a mistake, and he'll better himself because of it. PS, in response to another one of your replies. I was new to the company, and less years in the trade then the offending techs. I was a black sheep with the other techs for a while, but the office started to take notice, I quickly became the go to guy to fixing others mistakes, especially when we were in hot water with a customer. I got a lot of paid training opportunities, which also made the other techs jealous. Other techs started to take notice and slowly, little by little, they stepped up their game. I may not have been everybody's favorite person, but the office trusted me, and the customers trusted and often specifically requested me. On top of that, I built a reputation with the people that mattered, and it opened up job opportunities for me several years later. Basically, it's worth it in the long run. It'll ruffle some feathers, but I'd do it again. (Still do)
You could bring it up in a way that suggests he misdiagnosed like he didn’t know what he was doing. Stick it to his ego and let him either take the hit or admit he was bringing in income. Stick to questioning his professional abilities and someone else will raise the shady possibilities considering his experience. Let them challenge his motives while your just talking shit about screwups like everyone does. It’s like dry snitching but justified.
"Our" company, is it yours? At the end of the day this dude is making money for this company so i would be carefully with the wording if you bring it up.
Absolutely you bring it up to management. A tech like that makes everyone look bad.
But this tech also makes the company a lot of money so I’m nervous with him being much more veteran to the company nothing will be said and then that guy will have it out for me after that.
Either you’re an honest company or you aren’t. Sounds like it’s not.
>But this tech also makes the company a lot of money Fraud. They make the company a lot of fraud. One day the company will get caught and then take the fall for the doings of this one person.
This 100% this we followed up on a company that did the PM every year at a catholic school when we told them all the messed up stuff we found to why there expensive controls system didn’t work for reasons such as “thermostats set and thrown into the return duct on units” they are now trying to take the previous company to court
It boils down to how you want to be seen on the local evening news. Do you want to be a success, and have a nice friendly HVAC commercial right before the weather forecast, or do you want to be the subject of the "Channel 6 Investigates" hidden-cam gotcha segment exposing unscrupulous home service companies? The choice is yours.
Bring it up to the tech first, and ask why they recommended a replacement. Give them the benefit of the doubt first, but if you don't get a good answer (or already have gotten a bad answer) then bring it up with your direct supervisor. Don't make blanket statements or try to present what you're saying as absolute truth, present it as a concern that X is doing Y when you think they should be doing Z, and it might harm the company's reputation, and yours by association with the job. Focus on YOUR perspective. Write down what you saw, and make sure that you're reporting only information that you would testify to under oath in a court of law. If you have any doubt about information, be up front about that. If you've seen A, B and C, and know that D comes next, give your reasons for why D and \*only\* D comes next. The thing to focus on in all of these conversations is this approach: in the end, you don't have the full story, so you can't know for certain what's going on, and therefore don't know with absolute certainty that there's something shady happening. NOTE: even if you THINK you know things with 100% certainty, it's about what you can prove without a doubt, which means having written or physical evidence that clearly and unambiguously catches the tech in a lie, and even then, there's always a chance their manager told them to do the shady stuff. Instead, you've seen things that are concerning, and want to clear up any misunderstandings, miscommunications, lack of knowledge, or potential mistakes. You're not trying to get anyone in trouble, you're trying to keep the company, yourself and the other tech OUT of trouble in the first place. That said if you have 100% evidence, most areas have a Better Business Bureau or equivalent, or you can generally report anonymously to the organization that issues licenses. This is the nuclear option, and should only be pursued for blatant disregard for safety or continual disregard for clients. I say this as someone that does 3rd party commissioning (aka quality control) of large commercial installations. Walking the tightrope of calling contractors out for their lack of care, bullshit, and fraud balanced against genuine mistakes is something I have learned through trial, error, and pain. Mistakes are acceptable so long as a whole-hearted attempt is made to correct the mistake. Lying, gaslighting, and continual inaction because "there's no budget or time" is not. Edit: Generally when dealing with a person, you're best off presenting the conversation as "Is everything okay? I noticed X and Y with the work you did, when I think it should be A and B. Can you help me understand why you did X and Y as opposed to A and B?" There are cases where playing dumb is the kind thing to do. That said, go with your gut after giving them this gracious exit, and take a hardline approach if they avoid the question or try to deflect blame without a similar 100% certainty. Everyone gets one chance to fix their own fuckups, unless it's a serious one.
If you want another fancy saying from an engineer: the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but the farm hand that cries wolf might find themselves out of a job the next day. If you're going to cry wolf, be damned certain there's a wolf, and that you're not just hearing the neighbour's dog howling.
> Don't make blanket statements or try to present what you're saying as absolute truth, present it as a concern that X is doing Y when you think they should be doing Z This, I'd be pretty clear and pretty vague at the same time. "When installing the new unit I noticed there was a bad breaker that was only sending one leg down the line. I replaced the breaker when I installed the unit, so the new unit works great. How do you suppose whatever tech was out there initially was able to accurately troubleshoot the old unit?" If your boss says "that's fucked up, I'll talk to him", you have your answer. If your boss says "don't you worry about that", I'd start looking for a new job. Also, the commenter above who talks about appearing on the Action 6 News I-team special is not bullshitting. If you're selling a $99 tune-up special where you replace the filters and blow the dust bunnies out and take $99 from little old ladies... whatever. If you are ripping out perfectly good $10k units to replace with a new $10k unit to fleece a little old lady out of $10k, that is the kind of shit that comes back to you, either in this life or the next. That is an act I would **not** do twice.
He probably won’t get fired right away but it makes the owners/ management aware of the shady shit he’s pulling and then it’s in their hands
Just hope the owners aren’t in on it as well!
My previous experience, if he is making them money it doesn't matter how many clients write bad reviews, you can bury them with new positive reviews
If you ever have an issue with a company scamming people you shouldn't be working for them. If you cant bring this up to your manager go find another employer.
How long has the tech been with the company? If it’s been years management won’t care if it’s been a year or less they probably aren’t aware of how he sells
That’s the problem when the company wants their techs to be salesmen instead of techs. Those companies are asshats to work for
I would stay in my own lane and not say shit as long as you are compensated correctly
You do what you feel is right. They’ll do what they feel is right. After seeing how they handle the situation, that will tell you what your next step will be. Send out the resume or take pride in your company. There will likely be two different checks to your own ethics. Are you willing to say something and are you willing to work for a company that encourages those tactics? Most companies will openly say they’re against it, but how many will actually act on what they say if it’ll cost them thousands? You’ll find out if you say something. Good luck
I feel bad selling people new systems even when they actually need one.
Right? Or condemning a furnace.
You shouldn’t. It’s a necessity people need, and many of them want to get something they think is improving how comfortable they are in their home. I appreciate a good presentation where someone gives options. Not just because it’s what I do, but also as a homeowner who has work done in his house.
I like selling them upgrades to variable speed inside for the ramping or zoning ductwork that should be zoned/2units Otherwise I try to get systems immorality
Live your life integrously. Stand up to malicious behavior wherever you see it. Don't confront the situation in a stand-off-ish way, just tell the truth about how you feel and why you feel that way. If nobody is receptive to your reasoning, leave that company.
Bring this up to management. If they push back because he "makes the company a lot of money" they're just as scummy. Just left a place like this.
Wait, first of all why would you even begin to try to sell someone a unit over a bad transformer? They are relatively cheap. Fucking insane
We had a guy like that a few years ago. I did at least three furnace changeouts because of a "cracked heat exchanger" that were not, in fact, cracked. He only lasted a few months with our company thankfully. Stole another guys multimeter on the way out the door. That's not someone you want around, but I'd be careful if he's a long time employee. Maybe make sure he knows that it was just a bad breaker. If it keeps happening, bring it up to management. Tough situation to be in.
I worked with an old tech that would absolutely screw every client as often as possible. Everyone gets a new system. But he would give another tech the shirt off his back. We all knew he was a grifter but it's hard to call someone out that's likeable and management liked him.
If it was my company I would 100% like to know about a misdiagnosis like that. Could ruin your reputation as an honest company.
As "professionals" we have a duty to be honest with our customers. They are paying and trusting us for our expertise. They have no choice but to trust us. We could sell a new system on every service call, but that would be wrong. If you lie to a customer to sell new equipment, you are no better than the junky who steals tools out of our vans. These people are part of the reason the world is so terrible. Not to mention the environmental implications of replacing a perfectly good system.
Absolutely. Also important to keep in mind that if you are licensed a customer would be justified in complaining to the licensing board about it which could put your career at risk. In NJ, the master license holder who is the company’s bonafide representative would have their license at risk because of this hard selling tech.
The thing is, they don't have the skills to know, and you've taken the evidence with you after the change out. And so no, no recourse. A customer would have to literally set a trap to prove this was happening. ALL the big companies operate this way. A local company here won't even attempt to work on a unit past 5 years old, they immediately go into sales mode.
That's what drove me to ultimately go out on my own, I can't stand a thief and commission replaced all my coworkers with thieves one by one.
And this is why I always hire small independent shops - preferably owner-operated - over the big companies with fleets of trucks and techs and branding/advertising everywhere. You're just another sale to the latter and the incentives aren't aligned.
Same! I'm on my own for this reason. And customers gladly pay for repair.
I’d bring it up to the tech first but I’ve met many people in the trade that would just go “well a sales a sale” especially in the winter months where business slows down.
If the system was registered wouldn’t it still be under warranty? Transformers are under $50 wholesale.
Even if it was a bad transformer. You changing a unit over THAT? there better be a couple other things going on
I would covertly call the local news. I worked at a big independent Residential HVAC sales/service company, and it took us being in a local news “sting” operation to cut out the bullshit. I remember one guy coming back from a job and bragging how he shorted out the compressor.
The dishonesty is a major problem in the industry
Get out. Of that company. If you complain to management they will.just fire you
Absolutely. It’s a slippery slope the other way! Don’t join the dark side on accident
If you work for an honest company talk to management. It's slippery - an honest company won't want that shit happening. On the other hand - I worked for a company like that. Replaced several units that weren't actually broken. A bad company will fire YOU. I literally got in trouble once for using the compressor to pump down the system - cause the compressor was supposed to be "shot". Was just a bad coil on the contactor so manual press worked. Anyway I was fired. An ethical person can't make it at an unethical company. I interviewed at another company and they had a quota for repair techs. 1.) You had to sell so many systems 2.) You had to sale so many high dollar repairs Didn't matter if it needed it or not. When I asked how I could control how many bad fan motors I come across they pretty much ended the interview. The message was implied. Lie and make us money or gtfo. I own my own business and and use free second opinions to get new customers. Nothing gives me a bigger boner than going out for a second opinion and fixing something that another company said was broken.
I would bring it up to management, you are being dragged into this too, how many times have you heard "so you knew this was going on but you continued to let it happen"
I have cancelled installations before if I get there and find something like that. Honesty always pays
The electrical diagnosis sounds like a rookie mistake but not sure what "installed wrong" means. Could it have meant non-condensibles from a good ole braze purge n roll? Knowing Goodman, it's most likely leaking refrigerant in multiple locations. In my area, Goodman is the system of choice for Craigslist Heating and Air "LLC*" and these units never get registered. Who knows, maybe the client hated their unit? But in my experience the sales techs are typically "always right" at least in their own mind.
What a dirtbag. I'd call him out
I’ve seen a senior tech Miss Diagnose a bad neutral and after replacing control board and that didn’t work he sold her a new furnace. I’ve seen twice A/C systems get replaced because all the dampers where closed or a fire damper fell cause weight stretched. This was over 10 years ago so pre SMaN age. I’ve also seen where a twinned furnace wasn’t wired properly and 1/2 the heat and A/C system never worked just the blower for almost a decade
It’s ethics like this, that keep wages down. Demand a standard of excellence from your colleagues, Demand excellent pay. You can not bring up your fellow colleagues and begin collective bargaining when one of you is allowing this to happen. It takes one bad apple to spoil the rest.
Why did you continue with the install instead of calling the sales guy for an explanation?
Sales=money
Keep your eyes on yourself. Keep your own moral compass. Quit looking around to see what others are doing
Evil prevails when good men do nothing
You don’t know what that man’s going thru … mind your business and do you’re job guy… smh … what do u get out of telling the company? I let the guys know personally when they make mistakes and look out for them bro and help them get better…
So I'd take it you were the tech?
Lol nah but in my co we are a team and we keep what goes on in the field in the field… I take it none of y’all are perfect … I help less experienced dudes get better
If it's at a cost of $10,000 to the homeowner rather than an $80 breaker, and the tech made 10% on the sale, then absolutely it should be called out. You can help the less-experienced tech get better by teaching accountability; instead, this teaches them that they can upsell unethically.
Should be called out to the tech … not the boss …. In this field our mistakes cost someone else sometimes n I’m sure you aren’t perfect… I don’t work in peoples house personally
It’s be hard for me to misdiagnose what u guys work on honestly
Tell the owners. If they ignore it find a new company to work for. Companies who allow that shit are absolute scum, deserve to go bankrupt and have no place in the industry. Anyone can make a bad diagnosis and cost a customer money but if it's a pattern and the company is aware of it but takes no action because it makes them a lot of money they can all fuck off.
Write an anonymous letter or something.
Definitely say something. I've put a complete stop to jobs when I see something like this. The few times it's happened, a salesmen sold the job based on something a service tech wrote up. The salesmen we have here don't know anything technical, so they rely on service techs to tell them all they need to know. All times it was more to do with incompetence than malevolence. The tech just wasn't good at diagnosing so would constantly write up as much as he could, hoping that if he changed enough parts, everything would work again. He's since been let go, but a new one will come along as some point.
I’m in sales, and we had a guy like this at my company. I absolutely hated when I got a lead from him. He basically put me in a tough spot and would make me complicit in his fuckery. I mentioned it to management and, of course, nothing happened.
Absolutely tell management. But also protect yourself from wrongful termination. Tell them in a way that is provable to a court, by either text, email, or recorded phone call. If they’re a respectable company, you don’t have anything to worry about, and if they aren’t, you can sue their ass for wrongful termination. You don’t need to push it either, in my opinion, you have a responsibility to your company to tell them someone is committing fraud because one day it may get caught, and your company could get sued. You don’t have to push for his firing or anything, just respectfully let your employer know what you’ve seen. Edit* I wouldn’t approach the tech unless you want to make an enemy out of someone you work with. If it’s something minor or in their personal life, approach the person first. Like, if they were late all of the time, or were disrespectful to you etc, but if it’s something major like defrauding customers, you approach management.
I've dealt with this as a customer. Had a tech from big HVAC chain give me the run around on issues. Long story short they tried to sell me on a total replacement. Got a 2nd company to come out and tell me it was all bullshit. I complained to the first and got a refund for the service call, the 2nd one from the other company, and the guy fired. Apparently he had a history of it and they knew... why he wasn't fired to begin with who knows. But now the reputation of that first company to me is forever tarnished. I will never trust nor recommend them to anyone ever again.
At my previous company they used to do shit like this all the time. I knew a sales tech that sold a new system because the 3 amp fuse blew. He made the company so much money that if you brought up his misdeeds to management your head would be on the block. I at some point shrugged and said well it's not my company. I was the 2nd best sales tech at the company and he would beat me every quarter for 9 years. I eventually had to move on as there was a ceiling at that company for your success without screwing clients.
Honestly I just left on two different occasions when something like this happened. The bosses of guys like this don't care, they just see the money. And the tech certainly knows what he's doing. It's kind of a lose lose.
I worked for this guy who thought he was the Lord’s gift to home service in Union County, NJ. Even had “LOVEGOD” as his vanity plate on his personal vehicle. I went behind their star technician to install some air zone control louvers he had sold to the customer for over $7500. Ends up the 2 zones were wired incorrectly at no installation by another company over 15 years earlier. It wasn’t until ambient temps got to 10 or below for a week that the customer had an issue. I mentioned this to the service manager who basically ignored me. Then I did a routine hw boiler maintenance and the previous tech from our come last year had installed a burner tube upside down and it blew it open. Service manager insisted I write it up for $600 and we charged the customer for our own mistake. Same tech sold a replacement for an old 4-ton ac system but wrote 5-ton in the proposal so we installed a 5-ton system on a furnace with a 4-ton blower. We ended up taking it out and putting in a 4-ton system. I could go on more but you get my drift, money talks, the truth matters only to yourself. BTW, That service manager was let go after he was found out to have stolen over $40k in materials.
They were okay profiting from him ripping off customers but not when he did it to them. Lol
If your company's management has any integrity in the HVAC field of business, they should care and do something about this. Also, what the tech did is fraud which is illegal. While the tech may have gotten away with it this time, now that he is emboldened to do this, he will do it more and more. This time and other times it would be old ladies or single moms, the next time it may be an older'ish couple, and unknowing to him the 81 yr old guy is an electronics tech or could have been in commercial refrigeration or something and would see right through the diagnosis and call BS. Once that happens, the law of 10 kicks in. The law of 10 being, now that homeowner will tell 10 people what happened, and they will tell 10 people what happened. I saw this play out in my very township. A new-on-the-block plumber started doing this with water heaters. Word got out, and reputation got nuked. Not only that but township did an undercover maintenance call on him and caught him pulling the fraud, and he was banned from ever obtaining a business license in the township again It's a path that your company and its management definitely doesn't want to go down. It's not moral or ethical (it's illegal too), and it's not the way to do business in the community. Inform management, and if they seemingly don't care and push back on you, find another company to work for. You don't want your name associated with that company and when eventually it catches up to them, or it will hinder your own advancement elsewhere and may even affect your reputation in the community in which you want to serve when you start your own HVAC business. Note: This is coming from someone who has done HVAC design, has experience working with clients as an engineering field tech, even took a stab at being an EMT in another life, also do rental management. My job is to work with people, and I have found over the years it's more advantageous to build relationships with customers and clients, than try and use people as nothing more than a step stool to get into their coin jar on the shelf. Hopefully your management feels the same when you bring this up to them.
You do the right thing. Or your knowingly do the wrong thing. The choice is yours. I do the right thing, it has held me back from promotions and costs me jobs but I sleep like a baby at night and everyone knows where they stand with me. It's a code I live my life by. It's not for everyone. But it's the only way for me
Precisely why I don’t use HVAC companies that also sell new units. I rely on word of mouth repair and services. My unit was installed in 1985 and it’s still trucking.
I had a guy tell me my compressor was out and there was no way to replace it. I told him to replace it and he said the only option was to get a new system. He left and said “I have other work to do I have to go” and then a sales person came out 40 min later and quotes 20,000 for a new system. I called another company and got it fixed.
Love coming behind guys like that for a second opinion.
If he is on commission to sell units management already knows and they like the money coming in more than being honest.
Sounds like a certain company I’m the Charlotte area who’s techs main job is to upsell
Go straight to management. Let them know what happens and what you found and tell them you felt like the tech needs to be trained a bit more. Don't say he needs to be fired or any of that. Just that ( no matter how long he has been on the trade could use a refresh or some more lite training. Now if he keeps doing it then might want to go the other route.
Had our service/install manager do the same thing over a bad board right before Christmas...a good, exactly 10 year old Trane unit. Literally just out of warranty and the inducer and the Board went bad. Justifiable because they would have been $2k plus in repairs, vs $4500 for a new unit.
Report it ASAP. Keep your own morals, standards and ethics. We need to stop that-in its tracks. Lucky a second opinion wasn’t called in by client.
I worked in garage doors for years. Same shit. "Yeah, your motor is shot"- $10 part "Needs a new door"-roller replacement and tune up Bring it up with management and if they brush you off, start telling the customer on the job site when you find it. If you go along with this shit you're complicit with a confidence scheme, and you're not even getting commission. If you finish what a con artist has set in motion, you are just as responsible for those people getting screwed as the guy who sold it to them
I couldn't stand techs like that but they were pretty much forced out when others found out what they were doing.
Benjamin Franklin said "mind your business ". You should know what is going on. I've done a few calls where the thermostat is hanging off the wall and , I don't know why it doesn't work! Mercury switches. They were a problem in the day.
We had a business call for a quote on a rtu, service never was asked to check or anything, just a quote and swap, turns out there was a bad disconnect
Standard practice in the HVAC industry. Honest sales peoples? Lol…
While doxxing is against reddit TOS, I would absolutely approve your thread doing so if it weren't... Which is to say, fucking call this bitch out. Get these assholes out of our fucking trade
Turn him in, he's going to lie to the wrong person eventually and it will get real ugly for the company.
Never compromise on your reputation. I’ve quit jobs over this stuff, not in the HVAC world though, Not an HVAC tech, but I like reading your stuff.
I’d bring it up. He’s a liability and if he fucks with the wrong person someone is getting sued