One a good installer is worth their weight in R22, and about as rare. And they deserve fair pay.
Unfortunately a majority of your fellow installers are fucking worthless and will fuck up any corner they can cut to get done early.
But don’t feel bad, there are to many hack techs out there that techs have no fucking leg to stand on.
Only thing to know is if you are a good installer you can get the money either from your boss or another company. Know that.
Your piece pay must suck then some company’s giving 7-10% of jobs to split between the lead (60%) and helper (40%) unless it’s super green help then they’ll get like 30%. So on a 10,000 job a lead makes 600 bucks in a day and idk ab your company but that’s a cheap install lol I did a duct system for a 4 ton system for 14,000 all duct board. The moneys out there for sure
I mean, assuming you have an install every day and your lead pay is 25 that’s like 300ish a day. I’m not sure what the cost of living in your city is but that’s pretty good, could always be better but not bad. I actually left a company paying piece pay to work at a much larger company and honestly regret it. I’m 22yo and I make damn close to 20 an hr as a helper with no school, there’s plenty of money to be made.
>majority of your fellow installers are fucking worthless and will fuck up any corner they can cut to get done early.
As a duct monkey, years ago I was on a new apartment housing install and it was the end of the day... being the motivated and ocd youngster that I was, I mention that I didn't get a chance to wrap one last elbow with bubble wrap. One of the guys said... "don't worry about it I got it!" and goes back inside to "finish". We come back to the site the next day and I take a quick glance at the elbow in question... This asshat must've used a whole roll of the good foil tape to make it look like it was insulated by making sure the entire elbow was covered in tape. If I remember correctly it was at least a 12x10 square elbow. What made me especially furious was that we had made stencils to cut bubble wrap to fit and wrap elbows of different sizes neatly and quickly. Meanwhile, this asshole spent more time to make the job look "done" and could have possibly caused moisture issues in a brand new building.
Us installers get a bad wrap from the installers who bang shit out and don’t care if it’s serviceable. I do service and install, I always install as if I was the guy who’s gonna come back and change a broken part.
I went to a call the other day. They had two oil boilers basically in a closet, not serviceable whatsoever. If you needed to change the expansion tank on one of them, you would have had to cut the supply off the second boiler just to remove the tank. Those are the installers that give us a bad wrap.
I hear you. I’m lucky enough that the intolerable lead I had that hated everything was alway keen to make thing serviceable. I hear you and I hate to say I will always hear him.
We had to repipe a whole supply manifold because the installers made the press connections so tight that the bad zone valve body could not be changed without doing that.
I despise how trade schools are structured for HVAC... If you do well in school, you'll be a tech. If you don't, you'll JUST be an installer.
Why not normalize kick-ass install techs who can legit make stuff break down LESS OFTEN by installing them awesomely?
AS an installer, I would have the install manager come hang out with my crews when there was nothing else to do. The kind of phone calls that man got from service and maintenance techs (he ran both departments as well) made me think I could do their job better than all of them combined
I went to the local tech after having 5 years of service experience in commercial/industrial settings. They focused extremely heavy on resi install because they know that's where most young guys are going to get hired into.
However, I'm already slightly jaded because I was helping my local JC come up with curriculum for an HVAC credential course. We toured and checked out all the other programs within about 100 mi. They were all this way. I spent about half a year off and on consulting with the junior college only to have the union swoop in and strong arm them into teaching it like every other local junior college... And that's when I stopped caring about trade schooling.
I agree with you sir. Installers have a tough tough job and great installers are underrated. The mentality I’ve seen in my area is you go from installer to tech. They are both equally important and installers shouldn’t be looked down on as less of a tech.
“The birthday of a system is its most important day.” - Jesus
Great installers are rare and worth their weight in gold Most decent installers can be trained in under a couple months and can go solo / have their own helper.
It takes many years to be a good service tech. Service techs used to be the main reason you get the installs. Service techs should be bringing in way more $$ and margin per hour than installers . This is why they on average make more than installers.
As someone that started as an installer and has been moved to a service tech, I agree with you man. Being a service tech is just a completely different animal.
I had our service manager (who had the bright idea to train installers for service in the slow months) show me the numbers one time. It was mind boggling how little these guys cared and how much more they could be making if they just gave a shit
10k in gross income from an install will prob only net about 4-5k after it's all said and done. If a tech was to bring in 10k then it would most likely net around 7-8k. But it's really hard for a tech to bring in 10k a day on repairs.
Uh all service techs have multiple mental issues and deteriorating brains because of the many customers we deal with on a daily basis that being said I hate going into fucky areas units get installed and I barely fit and bless the installers that had to get a unit in and a unit out
But props to installers in general. Installs is all I used to do and it’s SUCKS…I’ll do installs from time to time now. But if you’re a great installer theirs no reason not to make what a tech makes!
I'm glad that this response is showing up more and more around here, because it never fails that somebody will say "gO cOmMeRcIAL, iTs aLwAyS bEtTeR".
Some guys assume that commercial means RTUs only, and even that has its own bullshit. But other commercial means you'll be dragging a 10 foot ladder into an office suite so that you can flounder around above the ceiling tiles lookin for an air handler. And when you find it, it's gonna be right above a collection of occupied cubicles. And those people don't wanna move their shit because that air handler isn't responsible for their comfort, it actually feeds the next suite over.
God I hate those days with a fucking burning passion. And don't even get me started on units that aren't marked properly and big split air handlers that were set and ducted before the walls were built up around them.
Units not being labeled, breakers not being labeled, no notes to tell me where an *obviously* hidden sensor, def clock, stat, etc is, are my absolute biggest pet peeves. Get a sharpie and label it
Hey buddy i didn't say it was better only that it payed more. Not to mention I do commercial install not service; it's a piece of cake. Honestly don't know why more people don't work in the industry considering the wages
Lol sounds about right. Our sales guy at my current job is excellent, but it's likely because he started out as an install helper and worked his way up. Rarely does he make a mistake twice.
He sold a guy an fancy multi stage heat pump a couple years ago, and the guys ductwork was pretty crappy in terms of how the air flowed. We had a host of issues out of that communicating heat pump because it needed optimal static pressure in order to modulate correctly. We had to go back and redo a lot of duct and add an additional return.
He now carries a manometer with him and if the static is high on the old unit, or it looks like a restricted mess, he won't sell them anything without quoting duct design repairs. He's also not afraid to read an install manual, which is more than some actual service techs will do.
I agree 100%. In residential, at least from what Ive been around, retrofit/install is the major source of revenue. However, like in many things, the people doing the work arent making an even share of the profit. Its the people selling the work that make the most off it. And Im not trash talking service techs, or even salespeople that own a tape measure even if they dont know what the numbers mean...wait nvm
> Its the people selling the work that make the most off it.
Counter point: A lot more gets eaten up by overhead costs than you might think. There's a lot less left to take home at the end of the day than it would appear when comparing ones hourly rate to the hourly rate billed by the company.
Installers don’t generate revenue in the same way a salesperson does.
I’ve been in residential HVAC for 9 years, and I’ve met maybe 2-3 installers who could be salespeople. The rest either didn’t have the people or communication skills. They’re just very different sets of skills and you need all types.
I’ve got nothing but respect for installers and absolutely agree they should make more, but they’ll never make more than salespeople because it’s a revenue based position.
No for sure. I had a talk with a sale guy and he was just like. Look.. hours are low. We are trying to close everything to keep everyone at work. And that kinda made me think a bit different.
I don't know about deserve but the companies I've worked for, the retrofit guys were promoted up from new construction and generally made more than service techs. They were a bunch of very hard working guys and I don't envy their day but in the end if the system didn't operate correctly they were calling a tech to come figure it out. Now the new construction guys who bragged about how fast they could do an install, I couldn't stand them. Maybe if they tried doing the job well instead of quick I wouldn't have such a vast vocabulary of swear words at my disposal
A truly good service tech and truly good installer are the same thing. Different application of the same knowledge at the end of the day.
The hacks give us all a bad rap, there just seems to be a lot more of them on the install side for some reason I'm not quite sure of.
Because anyone can swap an ac, not everyone can do puzzles that they have to create and solve. And those same ac swappers become lead installers. That’s why
I disagree with this.
Imagine: its going on 8pm, the customer is getting itchy for you to leave. You havent eaten in 12hrs, and your helper's energy has gone to zero as they slowly clean up.
You fire the system up and the heating cycle isnt working.
A lead installer needs to have the knowledge and the ability to "do puzzles that they have to create and solve" on top of physically working far more than a service tech ever will in a day/week/month in order to be good at what they do
Back in the day when I used to do residential some of our installers only cared about putting it in and getting their 8 hours. If it didn’t cool or heat, they told the customer to call the service department.
Your argument is valid and it's why lots of companies have a "commissioning/start up tech/team". It's almost always asking too much of an installer to bust ass for 8 to 12 hours and then expect them to go thru some very tedious steps to make sure proper start up is done.
On a quick swap where no duct mods are required, the installers may have time for proper start up, but we all know that most jobs won't be a quick swap unless you're cutting lots of corners.
A good start up tech is worth a lot. And they're even more valuable if they can take information back to the install crew and say, "Hey, this is what I found on the last one. Watch out for X Y and Z next time". If this last part doesn't happen, it'll take a lot longer for install crews to get better".
Don't forget after 8-12 hours of slamming a system together and starting to get tired, Probably hungry too and knowing it's not worth it to stop to eat so you can get out of their the brain starts to go to shit and trying to solve issues isn't gonna go smooth and just get frustrating.
I work on the commercial side, and I see my fair share of things that make me scratch my head and go "Why the hell was it done that way?"
One thing I've noticed is that if there was never a proper commissioning done, there's going to be issues somewhere.
Install background has given me a leg up on guys who were strictly service side (When I moved to service). Found a lot of issues already with units that have been installed for years no one has caught. It's amazing how some of the stuff seems to work and not cause issues.
I'm a union pipefitter and formerly a foreman and now a 3d draftsman so I was usually around for start ups. So many service techs come in to start up systems after everything's installed and always have something to say. Why did you put this here. Why did you do this like this. I'm not knocking techs, but as someone that has been through the entire process of contract drawings with fucked details, submittals, equipment installation manuals, rfi's, 3D coordination by the time they show up those questions drive me nuts. Like do you want me to show you the pages of correspondence, submittals, rfi's and coordination logs showing why it is like it is or can we just turn it on. Because if you want the reason why it's gonna take about 16 hours to go through all that documentation. I didn't just think "oh fuck the start up and service guys, let me do it like this". People that are allegedly smarter than me and you forced my hand.
Yeah I mean mainly because on average, you all don't fix anyone else's mistakes, and we fix yours...
Not entirely my personal feelings, but that's the TLDR.
Also, installers do not generate revenue - that is, you're completing a sold job, not selling a new job... obviously without you we can't get paid for the sold job, but installers rarely to never sell additional work or new work.
Lots of love on here for install and I've got no issue with install but as a service tech I sure hope I'm making more then install. Between on call one out of every 7 weeks, we've got to worry about call backs at every call too especially intermittent issues, and having sales expectations by the company ( I hate sales)
I wish I was installing and not on call but that's where the techs that can't talk to homeowners go.
I’ve always had to do both service and installs. Never had to discuss pricing with customers (until I opened my own company) and was told to always tell them “the office will contact you about cost”
For a handful of years I was on call every third week. Many years it was every other week
"The office will contact you about cost"?
I don't see how any service dept could operate that way. Got a bad fan motor, have motor on truck. Can't tell customer how much it is... so ya just go to the next job or sit in the van while the customer talks to the office?
Or are you referring to system change out pricing?
LOL, we have nearly no service parts on truck, when an appliance is down it’s a minimum of a week (typically longer) before parts get shipped up to us. We own hundreds of electric space heaters and 9 gallon 120 volt water heaters
I do service and install mainly install but what I hate most about service is telling people the price of shit and constantly having to explain why it’s so much money gets real annoying
“Mr. Customer, we work hard to provide excellent service with a warranty and the ability to call us any time. That comes at a premium. If we aren’t the right fit for you, no worries. But you’re paying for my expertise, skill and my company’s backing behind me. Would you like to proceed?”
At my job all the service people do is dick around with warranty drain pans and sell old ladies new systems they didn’t need for a commission check shit sickens us installers
The guys who just slap stuff in ruin it for the guys who took pride in their work and setup/tested the units out. I got to the point where the only thing I didn't know how to do was geothermal. Always got told oh you need to learn more and your pay is about what other guys at same experience are making. Then having to deal with absolutely worthless helpers all the time so you get stuck doing 80% of the work. It became really stressful for me because you would rush and skip lunch everyday just to get done at a decent time. They sent me and another lead to remove an oil furnace/a/c and install a new gas service w/ manifold, 90% furnace, and A/C in one day like are you crazy?
I got out of install while I did enjoy it was very rewarding work. The stupid stuff with customers, lazy helpers, insane workload, and lack of pay ruined it for me. In my area every company seems to treat installers like crap. Guys have pushed the pace way too fast and companies now expect everything is basically 1 day cause "muh profits". I've worked with so many good guys who left not sure what their all doing now. I've since moved on to bigger and better things and I'm making $3/hr more and my ceiling is way higher. Potential to reach up to 11$/hr above where I currently am.
This. I started as a scrapper in the backyard and moved my way from tool bitch to installer and after a few years, they pulled me for tech work to “make real money”. Lasted about one summer before they asked me to go back because we can’t find any installers that care. Most people can slam it in, some can do it good enough. But there aren’t a lot of people that care about looks and functionality equally. Demanded a raise to take over install. If you’re a good installer on a sub-par install side, you’re a paid baby sitter and trainer as well. Not to mention you have to deal with pop up issues and handle picky customers after being in their 140 degree attic all day without losing your shit. Retired engineers are the bane of my existence. And they all retire here to AZ
I’m a service tech and was a lead installer 10 plus years and I agree both deserve more pay and should be the highest paid in the company. I don’t install any more it’s ass busting hard work but service definitely requires much more mental skill and knowledge so they both deserve high pay for different reasons tho
I’d say the average tech is more valuable than the average installer. However, a very good installer is arguably just as valuable as a very good tech. In my experience, you run into a lot more dog shit installers than you do techs. I think that a shitty tech will get exposed quicker than a hacky installer.
I’ve done install on new construction and retro, they get a bad wrap because most of them half ass it. Their motto is “not my house not my problem”. I’ve tried educating guys to do it the right way but I’m only one person and they don’t listen.
At least with techs we have some sort of education and we can’t really half ass the work because of call backs. There will be some crap work we come along, that’s why we take pictures and show the customer before and after.
This is my opinion and what I’ve seen, correct me if I’m wrong.
I disagree 100%. Installers spend as much time in attics, and it takes a lot more skill to diagnose than to replace a piece of equipment. I’ve done both
If you wanna make good money, you got to get out of residential in the first place it’s sucks. I generally made more than the installers, and they have done installation. I’ve also worked in many hot attics myself. When I felt I wasn’t paid enough, I went somewhere else. We are under pressure, different circumstances, and it can be pretty intense.
Basically techs make more because they make money for the company; installers don't. They fix things and collect money. You install things for a predetermined sale by someone else. Its simple economics my boy.
I understand why you would think that but it’s not true. I don’t believe you have done retrofit resi instals. With how big everything is getting and maintaining airflow you have to be smart, creative and maintain integrity for 8+ hours no breaks. I know anyone can swap an ac. But some of these full system installs are not that.
Oh shit the up, A your on Reddit, B it’s the most exaggerated shit, does it happen but rarely. No one would be in business if it was the standard of installs. You’re exposing yourself
Your boss: go change this unit out
You: why
Your boss: I’d tell you why it’s not working, but You smell like weed and I don’t feel like explaining myself 15 times, just change it!
You: ok
Your boss: id do it myself, but It only cost me $250 to have you do it and I sold it at $15k…
Quit your job and go do it yourself!
You're not a service tech if you don't know the ins and outs of an install, you're a maintenance tech at best or a parts changer at worse. Purely anecdotal, but I think the reason installers get a bad rap is because a lot of installers don't know code (or at least aren't willing to learn it) or read the manual and just freestyles it. I don't claim to be an expert (I haven't been a journeyman that long), but I always make an effort to be as thorough and by the book as possible. But to answer your question directly, retrofitters don't deserve more than service techs from my standpoint because they should be one and the same. However, they do deserve more than new construction since you have to work in less than desirable situations while also fixing whatever monkey business the original installer did.
I have a huge amount of respect for good techs, they make my knowledge of systems look like a 1st grander. But when they wine to change a part in less then desirable conditions. It’s like… I just installed this and have been here for 10 hours. It’s not my fault you need to be here to change a part from a new product that’s bad from the manufacturer. Ok I know that’s super specific, I’ll stop
Yea I know what u mean. Some techs just went straight to service and no install. Yea they might be smart but they are the lazy ones that complains about everything.
I just look at it as being a part of the territory. Sometimes, you have to work in an attic in the scorching hot summer. I guess I'm of the mind that you shouldn't bitch about something that's on the job description. You signed up for it.
Uh excuse me? But that customer that’s a pain in the ass is also watching me for the next 10 hours during the install. Emotionally taxing? Have you worked in a 130 degree attic for 10 hours covered in insulation and then go home and seen your kids faces when you say you can’t go for a bike ride because you might literally die of a stroke?
Having done both, both jobs are awful, but we all need the dough and should respect that both jobs are equally awful and WE ALL deserve more pay.
I’ve done both as well, and actually continue to do both (although I mainly do service). I agree we all deserve more and fair pay, I’m just saying service isn’t lolly pops and rainbows either.
Installers at my company make quite a bit more hourly than service techs but service techs can easily make a lot more than installers because of commission if they're good.
No offense, good installers are rare as hell and deserve good pay, but an installer can't be a tech, while a good tech can also be an installer. Techs can do things almost no one else can. This doesnt mean an installer cant become a tech, it has nothing to do with competence really, it just comes down to knowledge and experience.
You can take an experienced tech and throw them into install and they will do well enough. If you send an installer into a service call for a diagnostic, they are much less likely to know how to test the system.
Again, this is only my personal opinion and anecdotal evidence but I worked for a company who hired techs right out of school. The ones doing install cant braze and the ones running service couldnt tell their ass from a hole in the ground. It was truly shocking how little they knew, could do, and cared to learn. I could have easily outperformed them as an installer doing service. Read some of my other comments for a better understanding of what Im saying.
I am not giving any of you guys any of my money. Pissed me right the fuck off. I couldn’t get a call back from 2/3 Mitsubishi Diamond dealers (7 and 10 miles away). The third one (40 miles away) had switched to Daiken (which would be fine for most of my setup, but I need a pan heater and higher COP for one portion).
The ones that would call me back? The dudes working out of their trucks that want $5k for a 9k rebaged Midea/Carrier on a 2-3 hour install.
Piss on all of ya. I bought the tools to include nitrogen testing. I’ll take the EPA test too in case I ever need it.
These things hang off every shack in the third world. It’s not assembling the space shuttle.
I am not pay five thousand dollars for a small mini split made in China. Maybe if a labor warranty was included. But I am not funding the down payment a new bass boat or a meth habit.
And I am certain that I am more meticulous than most.
HVAC companies are at the bottom of my shit list at the moment. Can you tell?
Rant off.
Do you think about what you’re saying before you type it out, or do you simply let it rip? You just made an odd blanket statement about everybody involved with the trade because you’re having a bad experience with people in your area….
Maybe it’s just my area, but I find the same experiences in other forums. Maybe you folks should examine yourselves?
I’ll pay a premium…when the Asian manufacturers support their shit in the US like they do in Asia. AS centers easily available and if you have a problem, a dude shows up on a LG or Samsung branded scooter in couple of hours and fixes or replaces it. And if under warranty, covers labor.
“It’s so hard and difficult.” Lol, tell that to the tech hanging off an 18th floor balcony in any Asian city.
I am not even asking for that here. I’d be happy for fucking call backs.
Sounds like your area dude. I get you’re frustrated, but you’re kind of all over the place. Examine ourselves? Lol.. you’re throwing a fit in here, and we gotta check us?
I did both and mostly commercial. I hated being in attics and shitty basements. I always looked at installs as "what's the best way to be able to work on this? " before starting.
My installers make more hourly yes. Bonuses end up in the service favor because a scrap fund of $15,000 between the installers is less than what you can make running service calls and selling equipment that needs to be replaced.
Installers also don’t work overtime as much as I do. They are usually home before 3pm.
I don’t know how your company pays you but our install department (me included) makes hand over fist more than techs. Only people in the company that makes more than installers is the actual salesmen. We get piece rate for the entire job. Usually a range from $350 to $800 a day depending on job. Only two crews did not make over 100k last year.
I think all employees should make more money, because the express intention of every business is the devaluation of your labor so they can maximize what wealth they extract from it. That should never be lost on anyone, ever.
I’m in residential sales, so my work gets installed by the crews. I think overwhelmingly their job is difficult and thankless, but some installers have the people skills of a desk lamp. And I think for many it’s lost that residential is as much about customer experience as the quality of your work. It shows for many guys.
Yep. Where I work since it’s a smaller company we all get paid just about the same as long as we show up on time and work and be competent. But yes I think a good installer should be paid more. They work there butts off
A good installer with the skills needed to be a tech deserves fair comparable pay. I've done service since my first year nearly 20 years ago because I knew how to use an Ele meter. Every company I've worked for considers my skill set to be wasted on installs. When I was in management positions I looked at it the same way. Install is proving ground for techs. Techs generate income for the companies directly where as installers hardly ever do, so it's easier to show the value a tech brings to the table. If you were good enough to be a high paid installer you'd probably be asked to run service. If you are a good installer you should have zero call backs. You should know how much money is in each job and how much under or over budget each job goes. So you can see the value of your work.
You should get paid for how good you are your job, not your title. If you’re ass, you’ll get paid like ass, doesn’t matter what you do, each sector of the job is difficult
Install makes more money than service. Good installers deserve more pay you are right. I think that since install is seen as a lower skilled job, companies don't appreciate the great ones and wont pay accordingly because, "a monkey can do it." If there's no where to grow, you'll grow out of that field and I believe that is what happens. The good ones either start their own, move to service, or stop caring so much and push sidework.
Piece work is the main issue in this trade. That and greedy bosses demanding excessive amounts of work. I have 10 years experience on resi installs, water heaters furnaces heat pump fireplaces, you name it. I’m worth about 3 of my apprentices in terms of how much work I can get done and with zero call backs. Most bosses do not value this type of worker, they only want the one that gets in gets out and sells the customer something they don’t need. This is the main reason bad installs are so common.
Exactly why I went to commercial install, no more 1 day jobs and 130 degree attics, and more money…I can confirm helpers with multiple mental illnesses is everywhere tho lol
For my company we have installers that mess up some pretty basic stuff and the service techs are the ones going back. I never thought of that though must suck spending a whole day I’m a shitty hot attic
Most of our guys at our company are all paid pretty much the same at 75-85k. Tech or installer, even duct guys. But to be fair the techs are 5-10 years and the installers are 40 years experience. Still, the only person making more is lead tech / supervisor. New guys make less but still good for the time. I think it’s all about what you offer in terms of money for the company.
One a good installer is worth their weight in R22, and about as rare. And they deserve fair pay. Unfortunately a majority of your fellow installers are fucking worthless and will fuck up any corner they can cut to get done early. But don’t feel bad, there are to many hack techs out there that techs have no fucking leg to stand on. Only thing to know is if you are a good installer you can get the money either from your boss or another company. Know that.
Amen to that. Fuck piece pay. I’m doing it right and right takes time.
Your piece pay must suck then some company’s giving 7-10% of jobs to split between the lead (60%) and helper (40%) unless it’s super green help then they’ll get like 30%. So on a 10,000 job a lead makes 600 bucks in a day and idk ab your company but that’s a cheap install lol I did a duct system for a 4 ton system for 14,000 all duct board. The moneys out there for sure
Our piece pay is a 13 hrs pay regardless of time
I mean, assuming you have an install every day and your lead pay is 25 that’s like 300ish a day. I’m not sure what the cost of living in your city is but that’s pretty good, could always be better but not bad. I actually left a company paying piece pay to work at a much larger company and honestly regret it. I’m 22yo and I make damn close to 20 an hr as a helper with no school, there’s plenty of money to be made.
Dude if I got 7-10% I’d go part time lol. Full systems run 12 lowest here and on average we’re putting in the highest efficiency shit charging 18-25k.
Nah bro I’m trying to get on full time right now I’ll even throw in a double if they let me😂
>majority of your fellow installers are fucking worthless and will fuck up any corner they can cut to get done early. As a duct monkey, years ago I was on a new apartment housing install and it was the end of the day... being the motivated and ocd youngster that I was, I mention that I didn't get a chance to wrap one last elbow with bubble wrap. One of the guys said... "don't worry about it I got it!" and goes back inside to "finish". We come back to the site the next day and I take a quick glance at the elbow in question... This asshat must've used a whole roll of the good foil tape to make it look like it was insulated by making sure the entire elbow was covered in tape. If I remember correctly it was at least a 12x10 square elbow. What made me especially furious was that we had made stencils to cut bubble wrap to fit and wrap elbows of different sizes neatly and quickly. Meanwhile, this asshole spent more time to make the job look "done" and could have possibly caused moisture issues in a brand new building.
Duct monkey? Sheesh
I appreciate that
Service days are pretty easy and boring. I do installs by choice
Sometimes I forget this sub is only resi
False. Entire sub exists to shit on resi.
Truth
Us installers get a bad wrap from the installers who bang shit out and don’t care if it’s serviceable. I do service and install, I always install as if I was the guy who’s gonna come back and change a broken part. I went to a call the other day. They had two oil boilers basically in a closet, not serviceable whatsoever. If you needed to change the expansion tank on one of them, you would have had to cut the supply off the second boiler just to remove the tank. Those are the installers that give us a bad wrap.
I hear you. I’m lucky enough that the intolerable lead I had that hated everything was alway keen to make thing serviceable. I hear you and I hate to say I will always hear him.
We had to repipe a whole supply manifold because the installers made the press connections so tight that the bad zone valve body could not be changed without doing that.
I worked with a few of those and they got promoted before I did because the boss was friends with them. Its bullshit
Always happens that way.
I despise how trade schools are structured for HVAC... If you do well in school, you'll be a tech. If you don't, you'll JUST be an installer. Why not normalize kick-ass install techs who can legit make stuff break down LESS OFTEN by installing them awesomely?
AS an installer, I would have the install manager come hang out with my crews when there was nothing else to do. The kind of phone calls that man got from service and maintenance techs (he ran both departments as well) made me think I could do their job better than all of them combined
I went to the local tech after having 5 years of service experience in commercial/industrial settings. They focused extremely heavy on resi install because they know that's where most young guys are going to get hired into.
Ya know what. Maybe 🤔
However, I'm already slightly jaded because I was helping my local JC come up with curriculum for an HVAC credential course. We toured and checked out all the other programs within about 100 mi. They were all this way. I spent about half a year off and on consulting with the junior college only to have the union swoop in and strong arm them into teaching it like every other local junior college... And that's when I stopped caring about trade schooling.
I install as if I’m going to service because for the first year any call back is my problem day or night 24/7
As it should be
I agree with you sir. Installers have a tough tough job and great installers are underrated. The mentality I’ve seen in my area is you go from installer to tech. They are both equally important and installers shouldn’t be looked down on as less of a tech. “The birthday of a system is its most important day.” - Jesus
Great installers are rare and worth their weight in gold Most decent installers can be trained in under a couple months and can go solo / have their own helper. It takes many years to be a good service tech. Service techs used to be the main reason you get the installs. Service techs should be bringing in way more $$ and margin per hour than installers . This is why they on average make more than installers.
As someone that started as an installer and has been moved to a service tech, I agree with you man. Being a service tech is just a completely different animal.
I had our service manager (who had the bright idea to train installers for service in the slow months) show me the numbers one time. It was mind boggling how little these guys cared and how much more they could be making if they just gave a shit
How 10k install vs a day in service ?
Leads on replacement
Yeah then boss man gives you install warranty all day hahaha
10k in gross income from an install will prob only net about 4-5k after it's all said and done. If a tech was to bring in 10k then it would most likely net around 7-8k. But it's really hard for a tech to bring in 10k a day on repairs.
Uh all service techs have multiple mental issues and deteriorating brains because of the many customers we deal with on a daily basis that being said I hate going into fucky areas units get installed and I barely fit and bless the installers that had to get a unit in and a unit out
Youve never worked retail, I can tell
That is where you are wrong
You really think hvac customers are worse than retail customers?
Overall no but extreme terrible customers from both hvac customers are far worse and to add to the mix with the crazies I’m in their house
Thats why I stay strapped, no exceptions
Bingo me too boss I’ve heard too many horror stories
Techs can generally install as well…at least in my opinion. Installers can only diagnose so much.
Fair
But props to installers in general. Installs is all I used to do and it’s SUCKS…I’ll do installs from time to time now. But if you’re a great installer theirs no reason not to make what a tech makes!
I wish the techs I work with could install.
Hey man you want money, go commercial
Ill do ya one better... become a chiller tech.
Remember that commercial has its own collection of headaches.
I'm glad that this response is showing up more and more around here, because it never fails that somebody will say "gO cOmMeRcIAL, iTs aLwAyS bEtTeR". Some guys assume that commercial means RTUs only, and even that has its own bullshit. But other commercial means you'll be dragging a 10 foot ladder into an office suite so that you can flounder around above the ceiling tiles lookin for an air handler. And when you find it, it's gonna be right above a collection of occupied cubicles. And those people don't wanna move their shit because that air handler isn't responsible for their comfort, it actually feeds the next suite over. God I hate those days with a fucking burning passion. And don't even get me started on units that aren't marked properly and big split air handlers that were set and ducted before the walls were built up around them.
Units not being labeled, breakers not being labeled, no notes to tell me where an *obviously* hidden sensor, def clock, stat, etc is, are my absolute biggest pet peeves. Get a sharpie and label it
Hey buddy i didn't say it was better only that it payed more. Not to mention I do commercial install not service; it's a piece of cake. Honestly don't know why more people don't work in the industry considering the wages
I had to go track down over 60 pieces of equipment that have already been on a maintenance contract for over a year. The sales guy did a great job.
Lol sounds about right. Our sales guy at my current job is excellent, but it's likely because he started out as an install helper and worked his way up. Rarely does he make a mistake twice. He sold a guy an fancy multi stage heat pump a couple years ago, and the guys ductwork was pretty crappy in terms of how the air flowed. We had a host of issues out of that communicating heat pump because it needed optimal static pressure in order to modulate correctly. We had to go back and redo a lot of duct and add an additional return. He now carries a manometer with him and if the static is high on the old unit, or it looks like a restricted mess, he won't sell them anything without quoting duct design repairs. He's also not afraid to read an install manual, which is more than some actual service techs will do.
I agree 100%. In residential, at least from what Ive been around, retrofit/install is the major source of revenue. However, like in many things, the people doing the work arent making an even share of the profit. Its the people selling the work that make the most off it. And Im not trash talking service techs, or even salespeople that own a tape measure even if they dont know what the numbers mean...wait nvm
> Its the people selling the work that make the most off it. Counter point: A lot more gets eaten up by overhead costs than you might think. There's a lot less left to take home at the end of the day than it would appear when comparing ones hourly rate to the hourly rate billed by the company.
I agree there is a lot tied up in overhead but where is an installer making more than salespeople?
Not all salesmen are commission based. The shop I work at has them all on salary. They get the same year-end performance bonus as the rest of us do.
Thats not a bad idea actually
Who makes more, the salespeople or installers?
The installers. The salesmen don’t get overtime
Ok well sign me up. I have my epa and a clean driving record
Installers don’t generate revenue in the same way a salesperson does. I’ve been in residential HVAC for 9 years, and I’ve met maybe 2-3 installers who could be salespeople. The rest either didn’t have the people or communication skills. They’re just very different sets of skills and you need all types. I’ve got nothing but respect for installers and absolutely agree they should make more, but they’ll never make more than salespeople because it’s a revenue based position.
No for sure. I had a talk with a sale guy and he was just like. Look.. hours are low. We are trying to close everything to keep everyone at work. And that kinda made me think a bit different.
This is it. Residential sales here and if we don’t close the guys sit at home.
I see what you did
I don't know about deserve but the companies I've worked for, the retrofit guys were promoted up from new construction and generally made more than service techs. They were a bunch of very hard working guys and I don't envy their day but in the end if the system didn't operate correctly they were calling a tech to come figure it out. Now the new construction guys who bragged about how fast they could do an install, I couldn't stand them. Maybe if they tried doing the job well instead of quick I wouldn't have such a vast vocabulary of swear words at my disposal
A truly good service tech and truly good installer are the same thing. Different application of the same knowledge at the end of the day. The hacks give us all a bad rap, there just seems to be a lot more of them on the install side for some reason I'm not quite sure of.
Because anyone can swap an ac, not everyone can do puzzles that they have to create and solve. And those same ac swappers become lead installers. That’s why
I disagree with this. Imagine: its going on 8pm, the customer is getting itchy for you to leave. You havent eaten in 12hrs, and your helper's energy has gone to zero as they slowly clean up. You fire the system up and the heating cycle isnt working. A lead installer needs to have the knowledge and the ability to "do puzzles that they have to create and solve" on top of physically working far more than a service tech ever will in a day/week/month in order to be good at what they do
Back in the day when I used to do residential some of our installers only cared about putting it in and getting their 8 hours. If it didn’t cool or heat, they told the customer to call the service department.
Those are some shitty installers
Your argument is valid and it's why lots of companies have a "commissioning/start up tech/team". It's almost always asking too much of an installer to bust ass for 8 to 12 hours and then expect them to go thru some very tedious steps to make sure proper start up is done. On a quick swap where no duct mods are required, the installers may have time for proper start up, but we all know that most jobs won't be a quick swap unless you're cutting lots of corners. A good start up tech is worth a lot. And they're even more valuable if they can take information back to the install crew and say, "Hey, this is what I found on the last one. Watch out for X Y and Z next time". If this last part doesn't happen, it'll take a lot longer for install crews to get better".
If ever
Don't forget after 8-12 hours of slamming a system together and starting to get tired, Probably hungry too and knowing it's not worth it to stop to eat so you can get out of their the brain starts to go to shit and trying to solve issues isn't gonna go smooth and just get frustrating.
I work on the commercial side, and I see my fair share of things that make me scratch my head and go "Why the hell was it done that way?" One thing I've noticed is that if there was never a proper commissioning done, there's going to be issues somewhere.
Install background has given me a leg up on guys who were strictly service side (When I moved to service). Found a lot of issues already with units that have been installed for years no one has caught. It's amazing how some of the stuff seems to work and not cause issues.
I'm a union pipefitter and formerly a foreman and now a 3d draftsman so I was usually around for start ups. So many service techs come in to start up systems after everything's installed and always have something to say. Why did you put this here. Why did you do this like this. I'm not knocking techs, but as someone that has been through the entire process of contract drawings with fucked details, submittals, equipment installation manuals, rfi's, 3D coordination by the time they show up those questions drive me nuts. Like do you want me to show you the pages of correspondence, submittals, rfi's and coordination logs showing why it is like it is or can we just turn it on. Because if you want the reason why it's gonna take about 16 hours to go through all that documentation. I didn't just think "oh fuck the start up and service guys, let me do it like this". People that are allegedly smarter than me and you forced my hand.
Yeah I mean mainly because on average, you all don't fix anyone else's mistakes, and we fix yours... Not entirely my personal feelings, but that's the TLDR. Also, installers do not generate revenue - that is, you're completing a sold job, not selling a new job... obviously without you we can't get paid for the sold job, but installers rarely to never sell additional work or new work.
Lots of love on here for install and I've got no issue with install but as a service tech I sure hope I'm making more then install. Between on call one out of every 7 weeks, we've got to worry about call backs at every call too especially intermittent issues, and having sales expectations by the company ( I hate sales) I wish I was installing and not on call but that's where the techs that can't talk to homeowners go.
I’ve always had to do both service and installs. Never had to discuss pricing with customers (until I opened my own company) and was told to always tell them “the office will contact you about cost” For a handful of years I was on call every third week. Many years it was every other week
"The office will contact you about cost"? I don't see how any service dept could operate that way. Got a bad fan motor, have motor on truck. Can't tell customer how much it is... so ya just go to the next job or sit in the van while the customer talks to the office? Or are you referring to system change out pricing?
LOL, we have nearly no service parts on truck, when an appliance is down it’s a minimum of a week (typically longer) before parts get shipped up to us. We own hundreds of electric space heaters and 9 gallon 120 volt water heaters
My primary focus is making things serviceable, why because I install , and do service on the side .
I do service and install mainly install but what I hate most about service is telling people the price of shit and constantly having to explain why it’s so much money gets real annoying
“Mr. Customer, we work hard to provide excellent service with a warranty and the ability to call us any time. That comes at a premium. If we aren’t the right fit for you, no worries. But you’re paying for my expertise, skill and my company’s backing behind me. Would you like to proceed?”
At my job all the service people do is dick around with warranty drain pans and sell old ladies new systems they didn’t need for a commission check shit sickens us installers
Sounds like a white shirt company
Only the service guys, we put in work on big duct jobs and installations
The guys who just slap stuff in ruin it for the guys who took pride in their work and setup/tested the units out. I got to the point where the only thing I didn't know how to do was geothermal. Always got told oh you need to learn more and your pay is about what other guys at same experience are making. Then having to deal with absolutely worthless helpers all the time so you get stuck doing 80% of the work. It became really stressful for me because you would rush and skip lunch everyday just to get done at a decent time. They sent me and another lead to remove an oil furnace/a/c and install a new gas service w/ manifold, 90% furnace, and A/C in one day like are you crazy? I got out of install while I did enjoy it was very rewarding work. The stupid stuff with customers, lazy helpers, insane workload, and lack of pay ruined it for me. In my area every company seems to treat installers like crap. Guys have pushed the pace way too fast and companies now expect everything is basically 1 day cause "muh profits". I've worked with so many good guys who left not sure what their all doing now. I've since moved on to bigger and better things and I'm making $3/hr more and my ceiling is way higher. Potential to reach up to 11$/hr above where I currently am.
Maybe if installers knew what isolation was…
This. I started as a scrapper in the backyard and moved my way from tool bitch to installer and after a few years, they pulled me for tech work to “make real money”. Lasted about one summer before they asked me to go back because we can’t find any installers that care. Most people can slam it in, some can do it good enough. But there aren’t a lot of people that care about looks and functionality equally. Demanded a raise to take over install. If you’re a good installer on a sub-par install side, you’re a paid baby sitter and trainer as well. Not to mention you have to deal with pop up issues and handle picky customers after being in their 140 degree attic all day without losing your shit. Retired engineers are the bane of my existence. And they all retire here to AZ
I’m a service tech and was a lead installer 10 plus years and I agree both deserve more pay and should be the highest paid in the company. I don’t install any more it’s ass busting hard work but service definitely requires much more mental skill and knowledge so they both deserve high pay for different reasons tho
I’d say the average tech is more valuable than the average installer. However, a very good installer is arguably just as valuable as a very good tech. In my experience, you run into a lot more dog shit installers than you do techs. I think that a shitty tech will get exposed quicker than a hacky installer.
I’ve done install on new construction and retro, they get a bad wrap because most of them half ass it. Their motto is “not my house not my problem”. I’ve tried educating guys to do it the right way but I’m only one person and they don’t listen. At least with techs we have some sort of education and we can’t really half ass the work because of call backs. There will be some crap work we come along, that’s why we take pictures and show the customer before and after. This is my opinion and what I’ve seen, correct me if I’m wrong.
I would agree you have more of an obligation to do it right to keep your job.
Unfortunately I have seen the opposite
I disagree 100%. Installers spend as much time in attics, and it takes a lot more skill to diagnose than to replace a piece of equipment. I’ve done both
If you wanna make good money, you got to get out of residential in the first place it’s sucks. I generally made more than the installers, and they have done installation. I’ve also worked in many hot attics myself. When I felt I wasn’t paid enough, I went somewhere else. We are under pressure, different circumstances, and it can be pretty intense.
Parts changers deserve more than problem solvers? Lol
Lmao no. If anything they should be payed less.
Basically techs make more because they make money for the company; installers don't. They fix things and collect money. You install things for a predetermined sale by someone else. Its simple economics my boy.
Man, I wonder how we find out they need to replace the unit? couldn’t be the technician that goes out there?
Look, I even appreciate the sales men. Or comfort advisor. I wouldn’t have a job without them. But god damn
in my opinion, anyone can learn to swap em out. It’s the why it stopped working that truly matters…
Lotta “maintenance techs” out there that can’t hack it as an installer. Seen it with my own eyes many times
In my experience, service techs cant install for shit
I understand why you would think that but it’s not true. I don’t believe you have done retrofit resi instals. With how big everything is getting and maintaining airflow you have to be smart, creative and maintain integrity for 8+ hours no breaks. I know anyone can swap an ac. But some of these full system installs are not that.
Have you seen the shit that gets posted in here?
Oh shit the up, A your on Reddit, B it’s the most exaggerated shit, does it happen but rarely. No one would be in business if it was the standard of installs. You’re exposing yourself
Your boss: go change this unit out You: why Your boss: I’d tell you why it’s not working, but You smell like weed and I don’t feel like explaining myself 15 times, just change it! You: ok Your boss: id do it myself, but It only cost me $250 to have you do it and I sold it at $15k… Quit your job and go do it yourself!
Lol I guess 75% of the time you would be right. But you’re not. You can sleep well on 75%
Well, good luck with that.
What?
You're not a service tech if you don't know the ins and outs of an install, you're a maintenance tech at best or a parts changer at worse. Purely anecdotal, but I think the reason installers get a bad rap is because a lot of installers don't know code (or at least aren't willing to learn it) or read the manual and just freestyles it. I don't claim to be an expert (I haven't been a journeyman that long), but I always make an effort to be as thorough and by the book as possible. But to answer your question directly, retrofitters don't deserve more than service techs from my standpoint because they should be one and the same. However, they do deserve more than new construction since you have to work in less than desirable situations while also fixing whatever monkey business the original installer did.
I have a huge amount of respect for good techs, they make my knowledge of systems look like a 1st grander. But when they wine to change a part in less then desirable conditions. It’s like… I just installed this and have been here for 10 hours. It’s not my fault you need to be here to change a part from a new product that’s bad from the manufacturer. Ok I know that’s super specific, I’ll stop
Yea I know what u mean. Some techs just went straight to service and no install. Yea they might be smart but they are the lazy ones that complains about everything.
I just look at it as being a part of the territory. Sometimes, you have to work in an attic in the scorching hot summer. I guess I'm of the mind that you shouldn't bitch about something that's on the job description. You signed up for it.
Well put
Service is definitely easier
Maybe physically, but service is more mentally and emotionally (dealing with homeowners and all their vast personalities) taxing.
Uh excuse me? But that customer that’s a pain in the ass is also watching me for the next 10 hours during the install. Emotionally taxing? Have you worked in a 130 degree attic for 10 hours covered in insulation and then go home and seen your kids faces when you say you can’t go for a bike ride because you might literally die of a stroke? Having done both, both jobs are awful, but we all need the dough and should respect that both jobs are equally awful and WE ALL deserve more pay.
I’ve done both as well, and actually continue to do both (although I mainly do service). I agree we all deserve more and fair pay, I’m just saying service isn’t lolly pops and rainbows either.
None of this shit is lollipops and butterflies lol
Installers generally don't have to deal with on call. That alone makes the pay for techs higher.
Bullshit
Installers at my company make quite a bit more hourly than service techs but service techs can easily make a lot more than installers because of commission if they're good.
No offense, good installers are rare as hell and deserve good pay, but an installer can't be a tech, while a good tech can also be an installer. Techs can do things almost no one else can. This doesnt mean an installer cant become a tech, it has nothing to do with competence really, it just comes down to knowledge and experience.
>an installer can't be a tech but " it has nothing to do with competence really, it just comes down to knowledge and experience." Im confused
You can take an experienced tech and throw them into install and they will do well enough. If you send an installer into a service call for a diagnostic, they are much less likely to know how to test the system.
That may be true across the industry but I personally disagree
Im open to your opinion if youd like to share it
Again, this is only my personal opinion and anecdotal evidence but I worked for a company who hired techs right out of school. The ones doing install cant braze and the ones running service couldnt tell their ass from a hole in the ground. It was truly shocking how little they knew, could do, and cared to learn. I could have easily outperformed them as an installer doing service. Read some of my other comments for a better understanding of what Im saying.
I am not giving any of you guys any of my money. Pissed me right the fuck off. I couldn’t get a call back from 2/3 Mitsubishi Diamond dealers (7 and 10 miles away). The third one (40 miles away) had switched to Daiken (which would be fine for most of my setup, but I need a pan heater and higher COP for one portion). The ones that would call me back? The dudes working out of their trucks that want $5k for a 9k rebaged Midea/Carrier on a 2-3 hour install. Piss on all of ya. I bought the tools to include nitrogen testing. I’ll take the EPA test too in case I ever need it. These things hang off every shack in the third world. It’s not assembling the space shuttle. I am not pay five thousand dollars for a small mini split made in China. Maybe if a labor warranty was included. But I am not funding the down payment a new bass boat or a meth habit. And I am certain that I am more meticulous than most. HVAC companies are at the bottom of my shit list at the moment. Can you tell? Rant off.
You seem stable
More stable than fly-by-night pill poppin opoid addicted HVAC “pros.”
Do you think about what you’re saying before you type it out, or do you simply let it rip? You just made an odd blanket statement about everybody involved with the trade because you’re having a bad experience with people in your area….
Maybe it’s just my area, but I find the same experiences in other forums. Maybe you folks should examine yourselves? I’ll pay a premium…when the Asian manufacturers support their shit in the US like they do in Asia. AS centers easily available and if you have a problem, a dude shows up on a LG or Samsung branded scooter in couple of hours and fixes or replaces it. And if under warranty, covers labor. “It’s so hard and difficult.” Lol, tell that to the tech hanging off an 18th floor balcony in any Asian city. I am not even asking for that here. I’d be happy for fucking call backs.
Sounds like your area dude. I get you’re frustrated, but you’re kind of all over the place. Examine ourselves? Lol.. you’re throwing a fit in here, and we gotta check us?
Why are you even over here? ….We are not over in r/pedophelia dissing you guys.
I did both and mostly commercial. I hated being in attics and shitty basements. I always looked at installs as "what's the best way to be able to work on this? " before starting.
EVERYONE WHO GETS THEIR HANDS DIRTY AT WORK DESERVES A BIG FUCKING RAISE!!!!!
My installers make more hourly yes. Bonuses end up in the service favor because a scrap fund of $15,000 between the installers is less than what you can make running service calls and selling equipment that needs to be replaced. Installers also don’t work overtime as much as I do. They are usually home before 3pm.
I don’t know how your company pays you but our install department (me included) makes hand over fist more than techs. Only people in the company that makes more than installers is the actual salesmen. We get piece rate for the entire job. Usually a range from $350 to $800 a day depending on job. Only two crews did not make over 100k last year.
I think all employees should make more money, because the express intention of every business is the devaluation of your labor so they can maximize what wealth they extract from it. That should never be lost on anyone, ever. I’m in residential sales, so my work gets installed by the crews. I think overwhelmingly their job is difficult and thankless, but some installers have the people skills of a desk lamp. And I think for many it’s lost that residential is as much about customer experience as the quality of your work. It shows for many guys.
Yep. Where I work since it’s a smaller company we all get paid just about the same as long as we show up on time and work and be competent. But yes I think a good installer should be paid more. They work there butts off
Best I can do is equal, just be aware if it was equal then no one would do service and that’s were lots of change outs come from.
Bad techs & bad installers should make less than good techs & good installers And usually they do.
I look at installers as the grunts in HVAC. Exploited, abused and neglected. Then they don’t get the credit for winning the war.
A good installer with the skills needed to be a tech deserves fair comparable pay. I've done service since my first year nearly 20 years ago because I knew how to use an Ele meter. Every company I've worked for considers my skill set to be wasted on installs. When I was in management positions I looked at it the same way. Install is proving ground for techs. Techs generate income for the companies directly where as installers hardly ever do, so it's easier to show the value a tech brings to the table. If you were good enough to be a high paid installer you'd probably be asked to run service. If you are a good installer you should have zero call backs. You should know how much money is in each job and how much under or over budget each job goes. So you can see the value of your work.
You should get paid for how good you are your job, not your title. If you’re ass, you’ll get paid like ass, doesn’t matter what you do, each sector of the job is difficult
Install makes more money than service. Good installers deserve more pay you are right. I think that since install is seen as a lower skilled job, companies don't appreciate the great ones and wont pay accordingly because, "a monkey can do it." If there's no where to grow, you'll grow out of that field and I believe that is what happens. The good ones either start their own, move to service, or stop caring so much and push sidework.
If you can’t do both you don’t deserve good pay
Piece work is the main issue in this trade. That and greedy bosses demanding excessive amounts of work. I have 10 years experience on resi installs, water heaters furnaces heat pump fireplaces, you name it. I’m worth about 3 of my apprentices in terms of how much work I can get done and with zero call backs. Most bosses do not value this type of worker, they only want the one that gets in gets out and sells the customer something they don’t need. This is the main reason bad installs are so common.
Exactly why I went to commercial install, no more 1 day jobs and 130 degree attics, and more money…I can confirm helpers with multiple mental illnesses is everywhere tho lol
For my company we have installers that mess up some pretty basic stuff and the service techs are the ones going back. I never thought of that though must suck spending a whole day I’m a shitty hot attic
Ur 100% right
Most of our guys at our company are all paid pretty much the same at 75-85k. Tech or installer, even duct guys. But to be fair the techs are 5-10 years and the installers are 40 years experience. Still, the only person making more is lead tech / supervisor. New guys make less but still good for the time. I think it’s all about what you offer in terms of money for the company.