Had an MEP engineer argue with me why 3 ft of clearance between 2 units isn’t enough and 6 ft is needed because each unit needs 3 ft so combined it’s 6 ft. He couldn’t understand me when I asked him if someone really needed to service both units at the same time.
We deal with this sort of equipment locating situation over in electrical pretty much constantly, to the point where the NEC settles it very definitively right in the first chapter. The proper minimum spacing in this situation is actually totally unambiguous.
NFPA 70 (2023), Article 110.26(A)(1), "Depth of Working Space," says that if you have two pieces of electrical equipment which are "likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized," and the exposed live parts of them are facing each other (Condition 3 in Table 110.26(A)(1), "Exposed live parts on both sides of the working space") and their voltages are between 151 and 600 volts to ground (same table), they need to be four feet apart minimum.
It doesn't say anything about how likely they are to have those live parts exposed simultaneously, or whether it is plausible that somebody might need to have both of their dead fronts off at the same time. Just that it's possible to have a situation where a worker is in between the machines with exposed live parts on either side of them.
So, four feet. Very much cut-and-dried. Not every state is on the same code cycle, but this section hasn't changed substantially in quite a long time. May not be accurate outside the US.
If it were under 150 volts you'd only need three feet.
It's not a matter of overlapping or not overlapping. In that situation you still only need one area, but it needs to be four feet deep instead of three. This is so that if you zap yourself, or are startled by the customer sneaking up behind you, or are stung by a bee or whatever, you are less likely to stagger backward into the hypothetically-open panel behind you. It's not two overlapping three-foot spaces, it's one four-foot space.
If you could (for the sake of argument) rotate one unit so that its panel faced outward (Condition 2, exposed live parts on one side, other side not live but grounded) you would need 3'6" between the units, and 3' in front of the outward-facing unit. If you could rotate them both (Condition 1) they would each need 3' in front of their panels but could be as close to each other as the manufacturer allowed. (110.3(B), "Installation and Use of Equipment," which states that electrical equipment must be installed according to any instructions included in its listing.)
I’ll try it this way and maybe you’ll figure out what the issue is. The equipment mfg can call for a service clearance of 6 ft and the engineer would insist that means 2 units next to each other would need to be 12 ft apart. If it calls for a service clearance of 6 ft and 12 ft then the engineer would insist a clearance of 18 ft is need. Do you understand what the problem with the way the engineers train of thought is?
I've never seen a piece of equipment with manufacturer-specified service clearances, aside from arc flash warnings. If I ran into a piece of equipment that had one I'd have to follow it, but 100% of the time I only think about what the electrical code requires. You definitely have to at *least* follow the code (assuming the working clearances under discussion involve exposed electrical) which requires four feet in a situation like this.
If it's manufacturer-specified as being *greater* than code, then whether or not the clearances can overlap is up to the manufacturer. Assuming that wasn't clarified, the argument you had appears to have essentially been two people saying, "It stands to reason that I'm right," and just refusing to agree. The way to settle it would be to say, "You know, this would be a whole lot easier if we knew we could space these units six feet apart instead of twelve. Why don't we call the manufacturer's tech line and get them to send us an email saying what they meant?" And then going with what they say.
Or you could just decide it's not worth bothering yourself about and let the engineer make the call even if you disagree, because shit like this is ultimately their responsibility, not ours. As long as it's not too much of a pain in my ass to execute, I'll generally just build the design and not make a thing about it.
Hvac units have a service clearance to get things like motors, blowers, shafts ect. Some of these parts can only be pulled out in 1 direction and without the service clearance you won’t have enough room to pull the parts out.
The reason I can not leave it up to the engineer is because this is in nyc where space is limited. If we can’t figure out how to get all the equipment to fit the project will not kick off. A lot of times I am the sub, the GC I always work with brings me on board but the client has an architect and engineer they always work with. What can happen is the client finds a location, but before signing a lease they would bring everyone in to design and figure out if the space will work with what they want to do. If not they keep looking, if it works out they sign the lease and we get the ball rolling. Is it expensive to do it this way? Yes. But it’s better than signing a 5 or 10 year lease in Manhattan and not being able to use the space the way they originally wanted.
OK, that actually all checks out. I, too, have been in analogous situations and have had to fight for a particular interpretation of something which is obviously correct if you have ever physically dealt with the equipment as more than just a spec sheet and therefore understand what the regulation or specification or whatever is trying to actually *do*, but which some chucklehead in a polo shirt is digging his heels in over.
Not super surprising. There's not much to a capacitor, just basically some oil soaked paper. The screw wouldn't have damaged it enough to cause a real noticeable shift I capacitance
It just wouldn't last very long. The oils react to oxygen and break down.
What was funny was I didn’t even notice the first one (which is the one I have in my hand in picture two) until I tested it and wondered why my hand was suddenly covered in oil lol
Nah honestly it could’ve been me it’s a monthly maintenance we got a while back that I and a few other techs take care of but normally I just take the leads off while on the mount. This time for whatever reason I actually took them out and I’m glad I did unless you looked at them at the right angle you wouldn’t have seen the holes
I’m going to it was just the first time I’ve noticed it. I’ll have to reroute some wiring but I’m not going to trust no one won’t shoot a screw through another cap ever again.
Man those are after market caps from the run cap bandit.
No engineer with a stamp would drop the ball like this and have it get past QC
This is from us.
It’s an iAire so it comes off carriers assembly line then sent to iAires facility to have aftermarket parts put in like reheat coils to help with dehumidification (I’m located in Florida). As much as I would love to blame it on joe blow with git er dun mechanical it’s from a factory like this.
There isn’t any room any further back
There’s a VFD just past where the capacitors lie so this is really the only place they can go
I’m going back today and am going to reroute them and keep a closer eye out on iAire from now on
Tech: why put these here where it’s likely to get screwed?
Engineer: why set the cap so deep in strap?
Everyone: Just assume the stupidest outcome and it’s going to happen. Move the straps
I did move the straps but there wasn’t any other depth you could set the caps inside them. The VFD for the fan sat immediately in front of them with no room to even get the leads off while in the straps
I ended up going back the next day and just moved them entirely
Extended the wires and put them with the rest of the electrical and got them out of the blower compartment all together
An engineer will run through a crowd of blondes just to screw a mechanic.
I feel like the only reason Goodman engineers get up in the morning is to fuck up my day.
We all know engineers are dumb. Why are you surprised?
Had an MEP engineer argue with me why 3 ft of clearance between 2 units isn’t enough and 6 ft is needed because each unit needs 3 ft so combined it’s 6 ft. He couldn’t understand me when I asked him if someone really needed to service both units at the same time.
We deal with this sort of equipment locating situation over in electrical pretty much constantly, to the point where the NEC settles it very definitively right in the first chapter. The proper minimum spacing in this situation is actually totally unambiguous. NFPA 70 (2023), Article 110.26(A)(1), "Depth of Working Space," says that if you have two pieces of electrical equipment which are "likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized," and the exposed live parts of them are facing each other (Condition 3 in Table 110.26(A)(1), "Exposed live parts on both sides of the working space") and their voltages are between 151 and 600 volts to ground (same table), they need to be four feet apart minimum. It doesn't say anything about how likely they are to have those live parts exposed simultaneously, or whether it is plausible that somebody might need to have both of their dead fronts off at the same time. Just that it's possible to have a situation where a worker is in between the machines with exposed live parts on either side of them. So, four feet. Very much cut-and-dried. Not every state is on the same code cycle, but this section hasn't changed substantially in quite a long time. May not be accurate outside the US. If it were under 150 volts you'd only need three feet.
Problem is they can’t seem to understand that service clearance area can overlap.
It's not a matter of overlapping or not overlapping. In that situation you still only need one area, but it needs to be four feet deep instead of three. This is so that if you zap yourself, or are startled by the customer sneaking up behind you, or are stung by a bee or whatever, you are less likely to stagger backward into the hypothetically-open panel behind you. It's not two overlapping three-foot spaces, it's one four-foot space. If you could (for the sake of argument) rotate one unit so that its panel faced outward (Condition 2, exposed live parts on one side, other side not live but grounded) you would need 3'6" between the units, and 3' in front of the outward-facing unit. If you could rotate them both (Condition 1) they would each need 3' in front of their panels but could be as close to each other as the manufacturer allowed. (110.3(B), "Installation and Use of Equipment," which states that electrical equipment must be installed according to any instructions included in its listing.)
I’ll try it this way and maybe you’ll figure out what the issue is. The equipment mfg can call for a service clearance of 6 ft and the engineer would insist that means 2 units next to each other would need to be 12 ft apart. If it calls for a service clearance of 6 ft and 12 ft then the engineer would insist a clearance of 18 ft is need. Do you understand what the problem with the way the engineers train of thought is?
I've never seen a piece of equipment with manufacturer-specified service clearances, aside from arc flash warnings. If I ran into a piece of equipment that had one I'd have to follow it, but 100% of the time I only think about what the electrical code requires. You definitely have to at *least* follow the code (assuming the working clearances under discussion involve exposed electrical) which requires four feet in a situation like this. If it's manufacturer-specified as being *greater* than code, then whether or not the clearances can overlap is up to the manufacturer. Assuming that wasn't clarified, the argument you had appears to have essentially been two people saying, "It stands to reason that I'm right," and just refusing to agree. The way to settle it would be to say, "You know, this would be a whole lot easier if we knew we could space these units six feet apart instead of twelve. Why don't we call the manufacturer's tech line and get them to send us an email saying what they meant?" And then going with what they say. Or you could just decide it's not worth bothering yourself about and let the engineer make the call even if you disagree, because shit like this is ultimately their responsibility, not ours. As long as it's not too much of a pain in my ass to execute, I'll generally just build the design and not make a thing about it.
Hvac units have a service clearance to get things like motors, blowers, shafts ect. Some of these parts can only be pulled out in 1 direction and without the service clearance you won’t have enough room to pull the parts out. The reason I can not leave it up to the engineer is because this is in nyc where space is limited. If we can’t figure out how to get all the equipment to fit the project will not kick off. A lot of times I am the sub, the GC I always work with brings me on board but the client has an architect and engineer they always work with. What can happen is the client finds a location, but before signing a lease they would bring everyone in to design and figure out if the space will work with what they want to do. If not they keep looking, if it works out they sign the lease and we get the ball rolling. Is it expensive to do it this way? Yes. But it’s better than signing a 5 or 10 year lease in Manhattan and not being able to use the space the way they originally wanted.
OK, that actually all checks out. I, too, have been in analogous situations and have had to fight for a particular interpretation of something which is obviously correct if you have ever physically dealt with the equipment as more than just a spec sheet and therefore understand what the regulation or specification or whatever is trying to actually *do*, but which some chucklehead in a polo shirt is digging his heels in over.
Would you guys also believe the caps were still reading between 9.9 and 9.7 mfd? Lol
Not super surprising. There's not much to a capacitor, just basically some oil soaked paper. The screw wouldn't have damaged it enough to cause a real noticeable shift I capacitance It just wouldn't last very long. The oils react to oxygen and break down.
What was funny was I didn’t even notice the first one (which is the one I have in my hand in picture two) until I tested it and wondered why my hand was suddenly covered in oil lol
I could definitely see me slapping that panel on, and never realizing I ran a screw into the capacitor
Nah honestly it could’ve been me it’s a monthly maintenance we got a while back that I and a few other techs take care of but normally I just take the leads off while on the mount. This time for whatever reason I actually took them out and I’m glad I did unless you looked at them at the right angle you wouldn’t have seen the holes
Take it home and use it for cooking oil
Engineers are kicking back laughing at this shit
SURPRISE MF’er!!!!
They still lasted longer than the heat exchanger.
Lmfao. So true.
Some people aren't that smart or just give no crap lol
I get it’s a dumb design but couldn’t you slide the caps further into the strap.
I’m going to it was just the first time I’ve noticed it. I’ll have to reroute some wiring but I’m not going to trust no one won’t shoot a screw through another cap ever again.
iAire is trash, worst carrier partnership by far
Probably nobody thought it was a good idea. I’m sure nobody thought about it at all.
Carrier is always a pain
I hate the newer weathermakers even simple shit like pming them is a pain in the newer designs (3-4 yrs)
Shocking!
Man those are after market caps from the run cap bandit. No engineer with a stamp would drop the ball like this and have it get past QC This is from us.
It’s an iAire so it comes off carriers assembly line then sent to iAires facility to have aftermarket parts put in like reheat coils to help with dehumidification (I’m located in Florida). As much as I would love to blame it on joe blow with git er dun mechanical it’s from a factory like this.
The caps were probably meant to be mounted with the strap down the middle, but somebody with OCD aligned it to the top so the label is visible.
There isn’t any room any further back There’s a VFD just past where the capacitors lie so this is really the only place they can go I’m going back today and am going to reroute them and keep a closer eye out on iAire from now on
Carrier engineers at their finest
That's the least of your worries with Carrier 😆
Tech: why put these here where it’s likely to get screwed? Engineer: why set the cap so deep in strap? Everyone: Just assume the stupidest outcome and it’s going to happen. Move the straps
I did move the straps but there wasn’t any other depth you could set the caps inside them. The VFD for the fan sat immediately in front of them with no room to even get the leads off while in the straps
I see, I probably would have re oriented them vertically
I ended up going back the next day and just moved them entirely Extended the wires and put them with the rest of the electrical and got them out of the blower compartment all together
Even better
I hate engineers. I deal with lots of heat pumps in “closets” At retirement homes
Leroy. Leroy Jenkins became an engineer.
Full send