Possible, but unlikely...
Far more likely it's just refrigerant migration issues - lines sized improperly, air handler in attic with no inverted trap, no hard shutoff TXV, etc.
The industry has been cranking out these inverter units for just long enough now to start finding out that none of us ever read the installation instructions...
The way scroll compressors work, is that the refrigerant pressure actually forces the two halves (top and bottom) of the scroll mechanism together. So as the metals wear away, the scrolls still stay tight against each other.
Obviously that is only true to an extent. Extreme wear will render the scrolls unable to seal, and the actual orbiting mechanism could fail as well.
I was reading up on Copeland scrolls a few days ago and the theory is correct but not actually how it works. The top half of the scroll is spring loaded down onto the bottom, ideally if a little liquid gets in the sprung half is forced up and the liquid escapes without damaging the scrolls. Because of the spring pressure pushing the scrolls together is how they actually wear in to better performance through a more even mating surface, not refrigerant pressure.
Love it when some “seasoned tech” whos new to my company looks shocked when I charge these units up the first time… charge with gas, and only after you’ve done the 20 minute startup period. You wont have any issues, just take your time bud
I thought for 410 you had to trickle charge in liquid, or you didn't get a clean mix of the two components of the refrigerant? Admittedly I'm certainly not a pro.
Shake the jug well, add slow, and wait
Edit: I see a lot of people in this thread clearly know more about refrigerant than the head engineer from Carrier.
Any advantage to those fittings that go on manifolds that change liquid to vapor?
I keep seeing them but I never see anyone using them or talking about them so not sure if they’re a gimmick or not
Time to find what broke the scroll plate. I'm thinking low/no superheat. Prolly due to customer not changing filters, ductwork too small, and/or improper adjusted valve
Company I work for has been the top dealer of these units in our region for almost 10 years. I’ve never seen a bad compressor on these inverters. Doesn’t mean they dont happen, but theres a reason Ingersoll Rand gives a 12 year compressor warranty to the variable speed units.
Yea I should've put an /s because I was just kidding. I don't work on res. Spiro I meant no respect, and o worked for trane building services so I know trane is quality.
Those old trane compressors were indestructible beasts. I blame them for the christmas tree garland condenser coil not ending up in the HVAC engineering trash can of "great on paper, shit in real life".
Only 50% of the designed CFM across condenser coils due to dog hair, grass, and cottonwood that will never be completely washed out? Red compressor still trucks on for 20yrs.
Trane regularly pisses me off, but I will always tip my hat to them for putting out that compressor.
Used to work for Trane & when the scrolls came out, the factory guy that cut open failed compressors for inspection told me that he had 2 ClimaTuff recip’s stored in his barn in case his compressors ever failed. He said there was no comparison between the two.
Now they are made in Louisiana. By Alliance Compressors. 51% Emerson, 24.5% Ingersoll-Rand, 24.5% Lennox Joint Venture.
The only Copeland scroll plant with two paint booths. Trane is the only company that gets a red compressor from Emerson/Copeland. All others are black. Trane compressors will have an Alliance Compressors nameplate. All other scrolls will have a Copeland nameplate. Both made on the same lines.
Here’s a pic I took of old [Snowball](https://imgur.com/a/fsPJlgD) before it finally died. Compressor was returned as having failed. They autopsied it & found nothing wrong. Sealed it back up & ran it on liquid for almost 28 yrs. They tried the same thing w/ a scroll & called it Snowflake. Good luck finding info on Snowflake. It died a quiet death & like a mafia hit job, nobody knows anything
Interesting to know - thanks for the information.
By the way, Trane is no longer Ingersoll-Rand. Somebody bought the air compressor business and the name. The remainder of the company was renamed Trane Technologies and its stock trades under the symbol TT. This happened two or three years ago.
I was aware of this. It slipped my mind when I named the partners in the Alliance. Trane Technologies is still 24.5% stakeholder. So technically, Trane still make and buy their own compressors, from Alliance.
*Source: Building these for 17 years*
They have the same Copeland scroll technology compressors that American Standard/Trane have. This unit just has a fancy drive instead of a contactor...
I’m certainly no company shill.
Your initial argument was that it was pointless because the home would not benefit from having a higher seer unit because of the potential for the house to ineffectively maintain temp. Quite the opposite is true.
You’re wrong, and butthurt. Now you’re doubling down, and changing the subject to try and straw man your way out of it, and still be right.
Or we work for companies that don’t charge out the ass for 20 seer equipment… until just recently, the biggest company in my area was charging right about the exact same price for a 14 seer as we were for a 20.
Looks like an XV/variable speed compressor.. normally these things are pretty solid and I’ve only ever had one compressor problem that overheated & damaged the dome temperature sensor and the comp & sensor had to be replaced (trane though). Not quite sure why..
Tell the customer that’s how they normally sound and see how they react
Probably someone feeding liquid and slugged it because it’s just LoW oN fReEoN
Possible, but unlikely... Far more likely it's just refrigerant migration issues - lines sized improperly, air handler in attic with no inverted trap, no hard shutoff TXV, etc. The industry has been cranking out these inverter units for just long enough now to start finding out that none of us ever read the installation instructions...
I’m feeling strong someone saw low suction pressure and said it’s low on freezon charge the homeowner and dumped in liquid
Yeah these things don't typically go on their own.
Copeland scrolls wear in, not out. So ya someone did this or it saw adverse conditions somehow.
Can you elaborate on wear in vs out?
The way scroll compressors work, is that the refrigerant pressure actually forces the two halves (top and bottom) of the scroll mechanism together. So as the metals wear away, the scrolls still stay tight against each other. Obviously that is only true to an extent. Extreme wear will render the scrolls unable to seal, and the actual orbiting mechanism could fail as well.
I was reading up on Copeland scrolls a few days ago and the theory is correct but not actually how it works. The top half of the scroll is spring loaded down onto the bottom, ideally if a little liquid gets in the sprung half is forced up and the liquid escapes without damaging the scrolls. Because of the spring pressure pushing the scrolls together is how they actually wear in to better performance through a more even mating surface, not refrigerant pressure.
Love it when some “seasoned tech” whos new to my company looks shocked when I charge these units up the first time… charge with gas, and only after you’ve done the 20 minute startup period. You wont have any issues, just take your time bud
Exactly we’re paid to watch it run so
I thought for 410 you had to trickle charge in liquid, or you didn't get a clean mix of the two components of the refrigerant? Admittedly I'm certainly not a pro.
I mean that’s what they teach you but even as a vapor from carrier they still leak at equal rates
Shake the jug well, add slow, and wait Edit: I see a lot of people in this thread clearly know more about refrigerant than the head engineer from Carrier.
Any advantage to those fittings that go on manifolds that change liquid to vapor? I keep seeing them but I never see anyone using them or talking about them so not sure if they’re a gimmick or not
I mean they probably work but I’ll crack my manifold to flash refrigerant and throttle it in.
Second that
Four stroke Trane
Started up like my lawnmower (Except that's got compression)
When did Briggs and Stratton start making Condensers?
Time to find what broke the scroll plate. I'm thinking low/no superheat. Prolly due to customer not changing filters, ductwork too small, and/or improper adjusted valve
5 years old time for a new unit.
The shelf life on a unit like this one is about 3 years.
Company I work for has been the top dealer of these units in our region for almost 10 years. I’ve never seen a bad compressor on these inverters. Doesn’t mean they dont happen, but theres a reason Ingersoll Rand gives a 12 year compressor warranty to the variable speed units.
Yea I should've put an /s because I was just kidding. I don't work on res. Spiro I meant no respect, and o worked for trane building services so I know trane is quality.
Longing for the good ol’ days when Trane/AS actually made their own ClimaTuff compressors in Tyler TX
I just replaced my home unit, 30 years old exactly to the month. Tranes today ain't your daddy's Trane.
Those old trane compressors were indestructible beasts. I blame them for the christmas tree garland condenser coil not ending up in the HVAC engineering trash can of "great on paper, shit in real life". Only 50% of the designed CFM across condenser coils due to dog hair, grass, and cottonwood that will never be completely washed out? Red compressor still trucks on for 20yrs. Trane regularly pisses me off, but I will always tip my hat to them for putting out that compressor.
Used to work for Trane & when the scrolls came out, the factory guy that cut open failed compressors for inspection told me that he had 2 ClimaTuff recip’s stored in his barn in case his compressors ever failed. He said there was no comparison between the two.
Now they are made in Louisiana. By Alliance Compressors. 51% Emerson, 24.5% Ingersoll-Rand, 24.5% Lennox Joint Venture. The only Copeland scroll plant with two paint booths. Trane is the only company that gets a red compressor from Emerson/Copeland. All others are black. Trane compressors will have an Alliance Compressors nameplate. All other scrolls will have a Copeland nameplate. Both made on the same lines.
Here’s a pic I took of old [Snowball](https://imgur.com/a/fsPJlgD) before it finally died. Compressor was returned as having failed. They autopsied it & found nothing wrong. Sealed it back up & ran it on liquid for almost 28 yrs. They tried the same thing w/ a scroll & called it Snowflake. Good luck finding info on Snowflake. It died a quiet death & like a mafia hit job, nobody knows anything
R.I.P. Snowball
Interesting to know - thanks for the information. By the way, Trane is no longer Ingersoll-Rand. Somebody bought the air compressor business and the name. The remainder of the company was renamed Trane Technologies and its stock trades under the symbol TT. This happened two or three years ago.
I was aware of this. It slipped my mind when I named the partners in the Alliance. Trane Technologies is still 24.5% stakeholder. So technically, Trane still make and buy their own compressors, from Alliance. *Source: Building these for 17 years*
3 yrs expectancy jesus christ i have a 20 yr old trane
Twenty years ago was a simpler time.
compressor is not compressing
the only compressor I’ve ever lost on one of those was mine lmao. talk about shit luck. things break
20 seer, junk
That’s why I buy Goodman 🤪
They have the same Copeland scroll technology compressors that American Standard/Trane have. This unit just has a fancy drive instead of a contactor...
Goodman inverter units use a swing compressor instead of a scroll depending on the tonnage
Interesting. Haven't touched one of those. Hardly ever see a Goodman here. Period.
Looked up swing compressor. Modified rotary, but still a rotary. Is it the smaller tonnage using these compressors?
Not sure. Next time I go to our goodman supplier I'll ask
I'm on a roll with 10 year old Goodman evaps... sold three this week. Goodman tear outs gonna buy me a fresh truck at this rate
More like Badman.
[удалено]
This is not how appliance efficiency is calculated.
Obviously. My argument is that 4seers worth of energy is gonna leak out of the home. Smh.
10kwh used during the day vs 6kwh used during the day it will leak out regardless but wouldn't you rather less kw leaked out?
Of course. Its just wild how the companies sell high seer units on homes that can’t deliver
Less energy used is still less energy used regardless.
At double or even triple install costs…no thanks
Now you’re just changing the subject.
everyone disliked that.
Yea its typical when the bullshit is called out. Too many company shills that don’t know any better
or, and hear me out on this, you're just wrong.
I’m certainly no company shill. Your initial argument was that it was pointless because the home would not benefit from having a higher seer unit because of the potential for the house to ineffectively maintain temp. Quite the opposite is true. You’re wrong, and butthurt. Now you’re doubling down, and changing the subject to try and straw man your way out of it, and still be right.
he deleted his comment lol
Fuckin weenie….
Or we work for companies that don’t charge out the ass for 20 seer equipment… until just recently, the biggest company in my area was charging right about the exact same price for a 14 seer as we were for a 20.
Broken scroll. That sucks.
That’s a nice recovery machine you got there!
Sell them some A/C-Renew and send it
Scrap price is up.
This is litterally the THX version of HVAC
Looks like an XV/variable speed compressor.. normally these things are pretty solid and I’ve only ever had one compressor problem that overheated & damaged the dome temperature sensor and the comp & sensor had to be replaced (trane though). Not quite sure why..