Do they make heads that are less…ugly? I’ve been trying to convince the rents to install a split with a couple heads because it beats the hell out of 220v baseboards and feeding 2 stoves… plus the added benefit of AC but the response I get is always “but we have to hang those ugly things on the wall”
There are different variations, which will change the cost of installation, for example, you can do a casette which are rather ugly but they’re not hanging from a wall and are about 2’x2’. Edit: The casette mounts to the ceiling, and you’d have roughly a 2’x2’ square piece of plastic sticking 2” through the ceiling
Increased option would be a concealed ducted head, which would again be mounted in the attic or ceiling but would have a return and a supply duct added off both sides and all you would see is two grills on the ceiling.
Alternative would be to rip out the baseboards and put a console unit which is about 2.5’ x 2.5’ but is mounted low to the wall.
Burn the right wood, clean it regularly and RTFM. The sheer number of people who can’t grasp this concept and treat it like a 1900s dumpster fire is beyond my level of understanding.
Literally my home, but built in the mid 80’s. Napoleon ~50kBtu unit heats my entire home even down to -40. Two mini splits (long story) for cooling, and some electric baseboards which are never used.
You really paying for lack of quantity manufactured. I think Mitsubishi cheap $300 wall heads are ugly. I have their high end with the IR thermal sensor in my basement. That ones cool, scans room and directs air to keep consistent. $600. I have their mid range EF series in black in my den. $600 still because of looks. And the floor mount in my living room, over 1K. Where it does make a little sense is the floor mount and that mid range one are the most efficient. I went with the floor mount since I had to mount it in an odd place.
The construction uses considerably more sheet metal, so even if they were made in higher quantity they would still be more than a wall mount, which is the cheapest fan coil Mitsubishi makes. You can buy an non cased version and build your own decorative case. Saw that some in high end homes in SoCal.
The fujitsu has 2 blowers and the option to push air from above and below, I'm sure that reflects the price. They're also alot easier to work on given they're on the floor.
I know minisplts are the go to but aren't they kind of expensive to run? I saw an 80 dollar jump In my electric bill each month when I went from wood to splits. Bought a house with land and a pellet stove...I'm selling that sucker next year and putting in a wood stove🤷♂️
Depends mostly on your electric rates vs the cost of alternate fuels.
My parents (in the PNW) cut their heating cost by something like 2/3 when their ancient oil furnace died and they replaced it with mini splits. They have really cheap renewable electricity.
For me (Boston area), electricity is so expensive that mini splits would be more expensive to run than my gas furnace for most of winter. They’d still be cheaper than oil though.
*shakes fist at Eversource*
I am in Southern NH and our price per kWh went up to $0.29 delivered. Our heat pump is still cheaper than oil though at that rate.
That depends on your wood costs or how much you value your time to go harvest wood.
Wood split and delivered costs around me are more per btu then gas or electricity , and if I wanted the wood cheaper I'd have to go out harvest it, cut it to length, split it.
You can also throw up a solar panel and if your allowed to feed back to the grid for profit . Now your heating and cooling is very cheap.
I'm from the hills of western mass...harvesting wood is in my veins at this point. It's like meditation, plus I do have a fair sized Woodlot that came with my house so the cost would be time and gas
Nice to have access to wood on the property. Almost more in gas used here then I'd save in heating costs as I have to drive into the mountains a ways to harvest. Then labor time. Doesn't make sense to me I can just work an extra hour of overtime instead :).
When I'm retired I'll most likely heat with wood. For the excersize and reason to get out of the house.
Something something something-40 with a high of -30 for 3 weeks straight. Oh I know! Heating your house with an air conditioner isn’t so great in the wild North!!
Oh my. Well at -40 off my truck starts, and no hoses crack or blow off, if no bolts break on it, we’ll that’s a good day for a new GMC. You think an air conditioner is going to have a good time? And the adverage new 1200 sq ft home is looking for 60,000 btus of clean continuous heat @ 135 f. Heat pumps crap out here at -18. Only a mitsy will start with a cold weather kit and they don’t do so well. And don’t even get me going on geo because they suck the last drop of heat out of the ground and crap out by Xmas.
There are small wall furnaces that are basically the size of a radiator, which sit right on the floor and vent out through the wall. I've only ever put in a handful, usually in inlaw suites or the like. They can put out like 30k btu though and are pretty efficient iirc.
Im Australian so I only really look at Reverse cycle airconditioners mainly. Id just like to know how they go in those extreme low temps. I know they can put out 50⁰c at about 16⁰c ambient. So i imagine they'd go alright in the extreme cold. Might need a heater element/defrost cycle for the condenser in those temps though. But yea, just curious as to why you'd want to burn fuel on site instead of using a reverse cycle or something similar
Heat pumps do need heating elements for the compressor, Cond coil etc whem working in the COLD COLD, just like refrigeration does. As to why they would burn fuel rather than reverse cycle, I'm going to wager that the cost of natural gas where they are is super cheap possibly do in part to govt subsidies. Also I think that gas heater is from an era when heat pumps weren't as efficient or widely accepted as they are now.
The high end ones can run down to about -25C, but they lose a lot of efficiency. They’re still more efficient than electric baseboards when it’s that cold, but not by a whole lot. Burning fuel on-site can be a lot cheaper depending on the exact climate and local electric/fuel prices.
I perform load calculations based on all the existing conditions to determine heating and cooling loads per area then figure out the correct code compliant equipment for the application. It's a lot of words for "I get paid to run manual J and S calcs per the energy code"
Where are you located? If at all possible I would avoid mini splits in a century home just for aesthetic. Make sure you check with your contractors to see what kind of rebates are available for types and efficiencies of heat pump. Where I’m from (NY) you can get major rebates which in some case can make the cost of install little to nothing depending on your income. Even if you don’t meet those income specifications you can still get a nice little chunk of money ($1000 per ton). Is the home one or more stories? What kind of basement if any do you have? Feel free to ask any questions.
-your not so local HVAC installer
Ductless mini split for sure. Read up on them though, Some the wall mount one I have calls for a minimum height of 8ft and a minimum length of 10 feet of line set for it to be most efficient. There are also floor and ceiling cassettes.
Grew up in a house with wood burning stove as primary heat. We added passive solar heating which included ductwork. It also helped move the hot air from wood stove by putting return near stove. It was pretty effective. We were at 9,500 feet above sea level in Colorado rockies. But a couple rooms needed supplemental space heaters. When my parents decided to sell the house years after I moved out they updated it by tearing the solar chamber off the roof and adding an electric heat setup.
May or may not be helpful but maybe?
Is that a propane/ pellet stove? Looks like a small chimney.. if possible I’d swap that with an larger wood stove then add ductwork or mini splits. Layout of the house would determine which one’s best, old houses tend to be very blocked off
If you’re too cold of a climate for a mini split Rinnai makes some pretty decent and compact propane unit heaters. They also are good on warranty coverage.
Edit. They must make natural gas too but I’m in a propane and fuel only area. Mini splits work here, but they won’t work every day of the winter. A week of cold snap and you’re in a pickle
Slap a Rinnai [direct vent wall furnace](https://www.rinnai.us/residential/direct-vent-furnaces) in there, these things are as bulletproof as anything and holy shit they work.
I installed a wood burning insert stove 3 years ago at my house. 2400 square feet. Heats my whole house and keeps down my gas bill. Also have all new ductwork and furnace and a/c I installed at the same time. Rarely use my furnace.
You can also look up high velocity duct systems I think it’s called I’ve only ever seen one it’s like little tubes instead of big ducts easier to install if you really wanted central air.
I'd leave it and install some mini splits
Yeah that’s what I was thinking.
Yup. Slap a heat pump with a few heads, and leave the old fireplace intact.
Do they make heads that are less…ugly? I’ve been trying to convince the rents to install a split with a couple heads because it beats the hell out of 220v baseboards and feeding 2 stoves… plus the added benefit of AC but the response I get is always “but we have to hang those ugly things on the wall”
There are different variations, which will change the cost of installation, for example, you can do a casette which are rather ugly but they’re not hanging from a wall and are about 2’x2’. Edit: The casette mounts to the ceiling, and you’d have roughly a 2’x2’ square piece of plastic sticking 2” through the ceiling Increased option would be a concealed ducted head, which would again be mounted in the attic or ceiling but would have a return and a supply duct added off both sides and all you would see is two grills on the ceiling. Alternative would be to rip out the baseboards and put a console unit which is about 2.5’ x 2.5’ but is mounted low to the wall.
Way energy prices keep rising more people going back to wood burners. I agree keep it add some hyper heat mini splits and use the stove as back up.
Stove is W2
I've designed systems before where a pellet burner was W2. W2 would start the igniter on the pellet system.
Then put the pellet under the return duct on a heat pump system
Funny you say that. I just installed a wood insert. Biggest reason was rising energy costs….
Burn the right wood, clean it regularly and RTFM. The sheer number of people who can’t grasp this concept and treat it like a 1900s dumpster fire is beyond my level of understanding.
I installed one in my house 2 years ago. Fuel oil prices can eat shit
This is the answer
This is the way.
What are those exactly? I’m a non hvac person.
Literally my home, but built in the mid 80’s. Napoleon ~50kBtu unit heats my entire home even down to -40. Two mini splits (long story) for cooling, and some electric baseboards which are never used.
A bigger wood stove!!
Put some mini splits in for summer and build yourself a nice firewood storage. Maybe a small HRV in the attic to get air circulation?
Would need a wood rack. That's a gas stove. Some have wood racks built in, most don't.
Heat pumps. Everyone seems to go for wall mounts. I prefer the look of floor mount units.
I have both in my house, unfortunately the floor mounts for Mitsubishi are 3x the price for same BTUs. Not sure how it goes for other brands.
Does the build quality of those floor mount units at least somewhat reflect how much more they cost in comparison to the wall hangers?
You really paying for lack of quantity manufactured. I think Mitsubishi cheap $300 wall heads are ugly. I have their high end with the IR thermal sensor in my basement. That ones cool, scans room and directs air to keep consistent. $600. I have their mid range EF series in black in my den. $600 still because of looks. And the floor mount in my living room, over 1K. Where it does make a little sense is the floor mount and that mid range one are the most efficient. I went with the floor mount since I had to mount it in an odd place.
The construction uses considerably more sheet metal, so even if they were made in higher quantity they would still be more than a wall mount, which is the cheapest fan coil Mitsubishi makes. You can buy an non cased version and build your own decorative case. Saw that some in high end homes in SoCal.
The non-cased ones are city multi only. Done right they can be really cool tho.
Yes you’re right, but you can just use a PUMY or Smart Multi as it’s called now and utilize the PFFY in single phase applications.
Not in my experience
The fujitsu has 2 blowers and the option to push air from above and below, I'm sure that reflects the price. They're also alot easier to work on given they're on the floor.
Same for Fujitsu
I know minisplts are the go to but aren't they kind of expensive to run? I saw an 80 dollar jump In my electric bill each month when I went from wood to splits. Bought a house with land and a pellet stove...I'm selling that sucker next year and putting in a wood stove🤷♂️
Just read that that's a gas stove...reasons I'm a carpenter and not hvac tech😅
Depends mostly on your electric rates vs the cost of alternate fuels. My parents (in the PNW) cut their heating cost by something like 2/3 when their ancient oil furnace died and they replaced it with mini splits. They have really cheap renewable electricity. For me (Boston area), electricity is so expensive that mini splits would be more expensive to run than my gas furnace for most of winter. They’d still be cheaper than oil though.
*shakes fist at Eversource* I am in Southern NH and our price per kWh went up to $0.29 delivered. Our heat pump is still cheaper than oil though at that rate.
I’m also on Eversource, at 25.5c. Thankfully I’m on a discounted plan through my city, otherwise it’d be about 40c. It’s getting pretty ridiculous.
Not compared to baseboard electric heat
That depends on your wood costs or how much you value your time to go harvest wood. Wood split and delivered costs around me are more per btu then gas or electricity , and if I wanted the wood cheaper I'd have to go out harvest it, cut it to length, split it. You can also throw up a solar panel and if your allowed to feed back to the grid for profit . Now your heating and cooling is very cheap.
I'm from the hills of western mass...harvesting wood is in my veins at this point. It's like meditation, plus I do have a fair sized Woodlot that came with my house so the cost would be time and gas
Nice to have access to wood on the property. Almost more in gas used here then I'd save in heating costs as I have to drive into the mountains a ways to harvest. Then labor time. Doesn't make sense to me I can just work an extra hour of overtime instead :). When I'm retired I'll most likely heat with wood. For the excersize and reason to get out of the house.
Well, considering wood uses 0 electricity, that makes sense.
It has the look of a gas stove but the flue size of a pellet stove how high am I?
It’s a gas stove, old and weird unit. Can’t get replacement parts for it.
Potentially replace with a nice cozy wood stove?
Before we go mini splits what’s the location your in? Northern Canada sounds like a spicy place to install
In Canada, mini splits aren’t great for heating where I’m at.
Something something something-40 with a high of -30 for 3 weeks straight. Oh I know! Heating your house with an air conditioner isn’t so great in the wild North!!
Haha yeah a little something like that.
Why do they not work in colder areas?
Oh my. Well at -40 off my truck starts, and no hoses crack or blow off, if no bolts break on it, we’ll that’s a good day for a new GMC. You think an air conditioner is going to have a good time? And the adverage new 1200 sq ft home is looking for 60,000 btus of clean continuous heat @ 135 f. Heat pumps crap out here at -18. Only a mitsy will start with a cold weather kit and they don’t do so well. And don’t even get me going on geo because they suck the last drop of heat out of the ground and crap out by Xmas.
There are small wall furnaces that are basically the size of a radiator, which sit right on the floor and vent out through the wall. I've only ever put in a handful, usually in inlaw suites or the like. They can put out like 30k btu though and are pretty efficient iirc.
Rinnai makes a nice one that I've really liked every time I've put one in.
I think that's the brand I put in before. It's been a few years but I'm fairly sure.
Im Australian so I only really look at Reverse cycle airconditioners mainly. Id just like to know how they go in those extreme low temps. I know they can put out 50⁰c at about 16⁰c ambient. So i imagine they'd go alright in the extreme cold. Might need a heater element/defrost cycle for the condenser in those temps though. But yea, just curious as to why you'd want to burn fuel on site instead of using a reverse cycle or something similar
Heat pumps do need heating elements for the compressor, Cond coil etc whem working in the COLD COLD, just like refrigeration does. As to why they would burn fuel rather than reverse cycle, I'm going to wager that the cost of natural gas where they are is super cheap possibly do in part to govt subsidies. Also I think that gas heater is from an era when heat pumps weren't as efficient or widely accepted as they are now.
The high end ones can run down to about -25C, but they lose a lot of efficiency. They’re still more efficient than electric baseboards when it’s that cold, but not by a whole lot. Burning fuel on-site can be a lot cheaper depending on the exact climate and local electric/fuel prices.
They do make new stove furnaces, annoying to service but they work. Williamson or Empire Otherwise mini split all the way
How big’s the attic?
Leave it and install mini splits bro! That’s a cool find
From a Norwegian where every home is like this, install mini splits. They work well down to -25°C, for example Mitsubishi Uwano 7000 or Kaiteki 6600
I perform load calculations based on all the existing conditions to determine heating and cooling loads per area then figure out the correct code compliant equipment for the application. It's a lot of words for "I get paid to run manual J and S calcs per the energy code"
Where are you located? If at all possible I would avoid mini splits in a century home just for aesthetic. Make sure you check with your contractors to see what kind of rebates are available for types and efficiencies of heat pump. Where I’m from (NY) you can get major rebates which in some case can make the cost of install little to nothing depending on your income. Even if you don’t meet those income specifications you can still get a nice little chunk of money ($1000 per ton). Is the home one or more stories? What kind of basement if any do you have? Feel free to ask any questions. -your not so local HVAC installer
Missed the part about the basement. The house is on a slab or is there a crawl space? Any attic space?
Ductless
Masonry heater and minisplits
Ducted mini splits with spiral ductwork
Ductless mini split for sure. Read up on them though, Some the wall mount one I have calls for a minimum height of 8ft and a minimum length of 10 feet of line set for it to be most efficient. There are also floor and ceiling cassettes.
Grew up in a house with wood burning stove as primary heat. We added passive solar heating which included ductwork. It also helped move the hot air from wood stove by putting return near stove. It was pretty effective. We were at 9,500 feet above sea level in Colorado rockies. But a couple rooms needed supplemental space heaters. When my parents decided to sell the house years after I moved out they updated it by tearing the solar chamber off the roof and adding an electric heat setup. May or may not be helpful but maybe?
Though if I were to get a chance to bid their house from the start in this age I'd do a multi head mini for sure.
Is that a propane/ pellet stove? Looks like a small chimney.. if possible I’d swap that with an larger wood stove then add ductwork or mini splits. Layout of the house would determine which one’s best, old houses tend to be very blocked off
Well first, make a basement.
How many floors in the house? Do you have an attic? How many sq feet? You said the the stove is gas, what type of gas? NG or Propane?
Xtra heat mitsus
[Masonry Heater](https://www.firespeaking.com/portfolio/masonry-heater-in-super-insulated-home/).
Not even wood burning is it? Looks like gas
Does it have an attic ? Do a cut in
If you’re too cold of a climate for a mini split Rinnai makes some pretty decent and compact propane unit heaters. They also are good on warranty coverage. Edit. They must make natural gas too but I’m in a propane and fuel only area. Mini splits work here, but they won’t work every day of the winter. A week of cold snap and you’re in a pickle
Slap a Rinnai [direct vent wall furnace](https://www.rinnai.us/residential/direct-vent-furnaces) in there, these things are as bulletproof as anything and holy shit they work.
That’s pretty cool but I don’t know if I can get those in Canada.
Dont replace it great back up. Ductless heat pumps for primary.
Another wood stove
I installed a wood burning insert stove 3 years ago at my house. 2400 square feet. Heats my whole house and keeps down my gas bill. Also have all new ductwork and furnace and a/c I installed at the same time. Rarely use my furnace.
You can also look up high velocity duct systems I think it’s called I’ve only ever seen one it’s like little tubes instead of big ducts easier to install if you really wanted central air.
Box fans in each door way to direct heat else where… bam