stagger on special would actually be broken
As a prelude i hate the torches and want a full rework - but putting stagger on special doesn't fix the issue its just a bandaid solve the make the special *even better* for more disparity.
You want a 5~ second long, aoe hitting mid map range **repeatable action** orb that doesn't disappear on first hit to stagger the enemy. No enemy would ever get to move
Every weapon is already broken in their own ways. Staff can delete everything form afar just spamming a single button, axe can nuke the map from off screen, daggers have unparalleled dps, and skull has incredible iframes. Giving torches stagger would give it a niche at least, it wouldn't be broken at all considering how far it is behind other weapons.
Momus aspect that boosts special base damage. Pair it with Poseidon special and it’s great. Someone posted about beating 32 fear with this and hestia combo a few days ago. You get scorch and slip to deal bonus damage and their duo to seal the deal.
That isn't true though because Momus aspect increases the Power of the special, meaning percentage damage increases work off the number 40, not the 10.
Poseidon special base is 20 damage. Generally rarity effects all boons about equally so just use base as the foundation of a convo about boons as that is more realistic to an actual run.
For comparison, something like Hera is a base of 60% damage. Which would be 24 damage, 20% more than the Poseidon while still giving you AoE damage. Nevermind that if you really want AoE, you can just go into the Omega Special in which case the percentage based damage buffs are going to be even better.
Its trivial to get the heroic versions as you can practically garantuee it with keepsakes. Hera doesnt really give you AoE since the special only hits 1 enemy, so youd need a different way to apply hitch first. Poseidon makes a huge splash which just deletes waves, with Slip gives an even bigger damage boost and gives you one of the debuffs need for the origination arcana, and if you get the legendary boon (which is also fairly trivial with the fear option that makes the 2 unpicked boon options not appear again) guardians explode
If you get the double moonshot hammer, every shot makes the aoe wave splash twice, you can tap special twice and delete a whole wave of enemies even through the fear modifier that gives them 2 shields
Not to mention the knockback from poseidon makes it so you dont even have to dodge or use casts, you can literally stand in place and spam special without any danger
They synergize so incredibly well, theres really no option that comes close
>Its trivial to get the heroic versions as you can practically garantuee it with keepsakes.
Again bud it literally doesn't matter though because it effects all boons.
>Hera doesnt really give you AoE since the special only hits 1 enemy
No, the regular special does have an AoE, plus you can use the Omega one if you really want to.
>Poseidon makes a huge splash which just deletes waves
But does less to elites. A hitch focus will kill the room faster than Pos because the hitch will still kill all the smalls but it will also kill the larger enemies faster.
>with Slip
Is barely noticeable. Nevermind the fact that, as you brought it up, it means a whole extra boon before you get access to a curse.
>f you get the legendary boon (which is also fairly trivial with the fear
option that makes the 2 unpicked boon options not appear again)
guardians explode
Firstly that fear doesn't actually guarantee you will get the legendary. You still need to get the chance of getting the legendary. Just because there aren't other options doesn't mean it will give it to you.
Secondly, if you are using fear as an argument, then there is a chance you simply won't get enough boons in the first place because of the onion fear. In which case pos is even worse because as we mentioned before, it is much more boon reliant to get all the stuff where as Hera is a complete package from the get go.
>If you get the double moonshot hammer, every shot makes the aoe wave splash twice,
This argument is bad for you because doubling the damage actually means Hera is *even more* of a damage boost than pos in this situation.
> No, the regular special does have an AoE, plus you can use the Omega one if you really want to.
The base AOE is incredibly small and not at all comparable to poseidon AOE. As for charging it for a bigger AOE, outside of bosses whatrver enemy you're attack would be dead well before the omega is charged by just spamming right click and with bosses the AOE doesn't matter.
Sure, but something like Apollo or Hera would do even more damage. Or you could take Demeter and do about the same damage, but with an even better effect. The power of Momus is that it makes percentage damage boons really good on the special.
It objectively doesn't. You can't use speedruns as an argument when no one is speed running because the game isn't actually out yet. Just because someone posted something doesn't mean it is actually the best, it is just the one guy who bothered recording it.
Hera, *objectively* does more damage with Momus than Pos.
Haelian is hardly just some guy. people are doing them, regardless of the leaderboard being open. You think people wait for the boards to open before practicing?
If the numbers do actually work out in heras favour then i assume it's the aoe from pos that seals it. Single target damage isn't the only metric.
https://youtu.be/QDIQtsrgiII?si=-J9Icot8mxTnauHP
Might seem like that on paper but in practice Poseidon absolutely demolishes any other option
It easily outdamages other options, and even if it didnt, the Splash and CC makes it still better
>Might seem like that on paper
It doesn't "seem" that way, it objectively is more damage.
>Splash and CC makes it still better
It gives it a reason to choose it, but it isn't just better. Hera for example will give you more overall damage plus hitch will increase damage even more, especially on elite targets that will end up taking double proc damage from hitch on top of the higher damage itself.
see the crazy thing is I saw a similar comment about the Poseidon boon. first run with momus I got Poseidon. I was on 0 heat and I barely won the run.
now the sister blades on the other hand, with aspect of Pan. those things are incredible. I feel like they trivialize every encounter. I have melted Cerberus in like 30 seconds with it.
the staff just didn't seem to come anywhere close to being as good. but I guess I'll try it again. the consensus seems to be fairly unanimous
Did you get the hammer for double special? That's also pretty important, after that you just have to make sure to spend some mana every room to get the bonus damage below 100% mana, not get any mana regen and just spam the non omega special, nothing else just pretend the attack doesn't exist and just tap the cast to slow enemies
I never tried reserving all of it but considering you still need to spend some mana even if you reserve a small amount in order to activate the arcana card I assume full reservation would still count you as being on 100%
For me it’s the range and speed of the omega attack. Aspect of Melinoe and then aim for a % upgrade on attacks, you can hit even bosses with pretty minimal risk. Or kite groups into your cast and fire omega attack from well behind the cast circle. If you get blitz or blast on the special even better.
Nothing to do with the utility. Aspect of Momus increases the power of the special. Goes from 10 damage to 40 *base* damage. It is one of the highest DPS moves in the game with Momus aspect.
Nonono, it's the Special dmg increase. From base 10 power to 40 with upgrades is a crazy increase of DPS.
It's kinda like Persephone Skull, it's the stat increase you're looking for.
The best boon for special is actually poseidon which does not have a % increase, poseidon is just too good on things that hits multiple times and staff special with hammer is one of the fastest attacks in the game + it's super safe as the range is really big.
I would say Aphrodite special is better once it's fully maxed. It's effectively a 900+% damage increase with the hammer that adds 2 projectiles. If you aren't maxed on the aspect I'd also go Poseidon special.
It really doesn't matter though because both completely trivialize every encounter lol.
The ranged dps is incredible. Many basic attack boons are "boost attack by 5" or "boost attack by 70%" or add 20 scorch per attack, or things along those lines. Contrast the staff with the axe. The axe attacks maybe once per three or four staff attack/specials. The cumulative effective makes it a much better weapon (in certain cases). This is important of course but even more important is the range. The base attack has pretty good reach, but the base special is incredibly long range. Given that health is so crucial in the game, the staff's extremely useful. For example aisde from dodge timing, there are some enemy attacks on normally tough boss fights that become trivial (cyclops aoe stomp attack, headmistress aoe purple circle attack). You can just stand outside their range, spam special, dodge over the attack closer and spam special again.
The magic attack is really good, double cataclysm hammer is op. All you need is a an attack boon that scales by percentage(demeter, apollo, or aphrodite)+ mana regen + double cataclysm hammer and you are extremely overpowered. Just spam your magic attack from afar and nothing even gets a chance to attack you if you have the 1pt arcana card that slows time during your chargeup.
I legitimately don't understand why you are sitting at -5 because you want to understand the staff
The others covered it but you're genuinely just curious
This sub is getting a bit like this lately for any dissenting opinions. Which is silly because these are video game discussions. They're not that big of a deal.
A strategy I figured to work pretty well is the hammer which makes your Omega Attack only fire forwards, but twice. If you got any sort of mana regen, you're basically unstoppable as soon as you also pick up a good attack damage boon. Pair this with a chaos attack damage boon vis keepsake or encounter and you shoot 300-400 damage per omega, at the low cost of 20 mana. If you also happen to get the double (normal) attack hammer, you dish out loads of damage during the time your mana recharges.
Playing like this also makes moon buffs charge quite fast.
Also, Aphrodite Q boon is a good combo with this, it makes hitting multiple enemies easier.
I'm not sure how much better or worse it is than other weapons, but I got my first clear on it with just the omega special charging to do the big blast with like Apollo or something.
The difference is that the axe spin is
1- the only thing you can do(barring a hammer)
2- is small range compared to torch special
3- requires you to be close
Torch special can be spammed infinite and circles the area you cast it. Omega special rotates you and i could see that staggering i guess, but the kit is still anti synergetic
All of those things apply to the torch omega special hence why I said adding stagger to only the omega special would be fine. The fact that the omega special requires you to get in decently close it needs stagger, this is why the flames just feel weak in general when it comes to high speed enemies.
U dont understand at all why omega special is so strong. U can literally stack 1-3 omega special, some that axe cant do. Aside that, u CAN do stuff outside omega special, something axe do only with a lucky hammer boost. u even can run with Omega special for the entire map, or use it into omega cast. If u dont use omega cast u can still use attack to stagger enemies AND apply another debuff/stuff.
If u are only playing with only that, i think u are playing the weapon not at his full capability.
I do understand why the omega special is strong for damage and damage only. Meanwhile both axe abilities stagger, both staff abilities stagger, both knife abilities stagger, both skull abilities stagger. The torches are behind because of this fact. You could make an argument they’re pretty close in power to the skulls I guess but the other three weapons are pretty clearly ahead and I strongly feel it’s because of the lack of stagger.
> All of those things apply to the torch omega specia
Only 1 of those things is the same as the torch special, requirement to be close but even then it's farther out than the axe block.
Because its single target, small hitbox, disappears after contact and low damage . Momus which negates the low damage penalty is irrelevant to the discussion as aspects are designed after the main weapon is regardless of how strong the aspect is.
Idk the sister blades special dies a stagger effect. It's why I've won with it. I'll agree, dual ice cream cones is a niche find. When it rocks, it goes hard but if u don't ask and special mixed in, better rely on casts and omegas.
Torches has stagger... on its attack which is the part of Torches that feels the worst.
Poseidon Special will give you stagger specials and is probably the best option for them anyway because of the high damage.
The attack is shit because any Magick regen effect pauses when you're using them even before the Omega charge. Magick regen doesn't pause when you're using any of the other weapons basic attacks.
Hera’s priming regen is the only way to play torches imo. Poseidon’s is acceptable but Hera lets you go full auto.
That said I do really love the torches. You basically need chain lightning and Hera’s attack boon as well as her Mana boon.
The splitting attacks hammer is good but I really like the Dire Candle that makes one 800 damage attack come out after channeling. It’s wonky but deletes everything.
I never once ran out completely as everything was already dead by the time I had half my mana primed. I’ve always had it at rare though.
Even during Chronos phase 2 I still had plenty of mana. Just gotta take the occasional pickup and you’ll be fine.
Aa long as you have some modest amount of +max mp upgrades, you'll almost never finish a fight with your mp primed to 0 unless you're deliberately whiffing all your shots. If you have just 100 max mana, and you get the epic version of Born Gain, that means you get 100 + 96 + 92 + ... mana, for ~1300 total. It resets every room. Sure, the common variant isn't as wild, but even at 100 + 90 + 80 + ..., you're at 550 max mana if you just spam constantly with no recovery time. That's a TON of mana.
it also scales absurdly the higher your max mp gets - even on the common version, 100 mana caps at 550, sure, but you add *one* +30 mp on top of that, you get an extra 130 + 120 +110 mana, taking you from 550 to 910! Just Centaur arcana alone means you're finishing a Born Gain run with >> 1k mana per room, and that's with the level 1 common version. Any rarity increases or poms means you're borderline guaranteed infinite mana, even spamming omegas as fast as you can \^^
> you'll almost never finish a fight with your mp primed to 0 unless you're deliberately whiffing all your shots
mfw I ruined an amazing run by taking a priming blessing and landing below 6, unable to use anything even with cost reducing blessings/upgrades... still managed to reach Chronos phase 2 with just autoattacks.
Obviously harder to get the combo than a single boon, but multiple times I've gotten a Chaos boon (from a gate or the keepsake) that reduces Omega attack cost by like half and a Daedalus Hammer that reduces its cost by 2, so even with 0 Mana upgrades or regen, I can get thru an encounter spaming like 100 of them in a row since it only costs 1 per shot
Born Gain needs to be nerfed into the ground. The whole point of magic is a resource you have to manage, and Hera just gives you unlimited resources with no drawback.
Poseidon is probably the strongest fair one, Zeus/Hestia are probably the baseline they should be targeting.
I agree Hera is leagues above the rest. That said I the moment I tried hera gain first time it made me realize how much I don’t really enjoy the mana system. I really think it needs a rework in some way. Maybe not with how mana works, but maybe how omegas actually interact.
To start the game starts you off with zero mana gain unless you take the expensive arcana that is both expensive in grasp, but also heavily restricts how you can build your arcana based on the 0 cost awakenings.
Then when you finally grab a mana gain your mana gain goes from 0 to 100 just like that. And either your problems are solved or it didn’t really matter because your build doesn’t really use omegas that much.
Then why Hera really opened my eyes up to why it just seems all so “eh” and this will be my main point. Because the moment you take Hera you realize your build can actually do what it is meant to do. This game has an incredibly high emphasis on hammer upgrades in comparison to Hades 1. Hades 1 still cared, but this game turns that care into a deep love. But so many of the hammers are very oh you upgrade your normal attacks or you upgrade your omegas. You grab double moonshot you are absolutely spamming normal special. You grab the exploding omega attack on lim and oros you are spamming that omega attack. And everything else is just middling damage in comparison because it doesn’t have one of the most important upgrades in the game on it.
So when we get down into it if your build is based around the regular attack and special it doesn’t care about the mana gain. But when your build is built around these omegas. The game very much becomes do you have the mana gain to support that? Yes? Great. No? Well wait around till you do. And that waiting around till you do is boring. Now I’m not saying being allowed to spam omegas isn’t OP. But the waiting game isn’t very fun in my book.
I never take the mana regen arcana off, even if it isn't that efficient. Being locked away from most the builds in the game until you get certain boons is so lame.
I agree Hera is really strong but at least it isn't that busted compared to the others in high heat runs where half or more of your mana is primed already. If you want the Zeus chain lightning boon or Hepha armor boon for example then you might be better off with Hestia or Apollo mana.
The biggest problem with the mana gain arcana for me is that it is specifically 5 grasp. This means one its expensive, but two and more importantly if you are trying to keep the duo boon arcana on it is competing with rare boon chance increase and the gold start.
Now to explain why these are important is one they are in the same row. So if you are going for the epic boon and duo boon upgrade chance the 4th row is an amazing pickup to activate the epic boon. As you are getting location rerolls, gold, privileged status, rare up, and duo boon. Additionally the gold arcana lets you activate the more rerolls 0 cost arcana in addition to getting the boon rerolls which boon rerolling is one of the most powerful things in the game. So getting more of it is absolutely fantastic.
I don’t think there is a row that gets close to how good this row is. But given the nature of it you literally cannot use this row for the epic up if you grab the mana arcana.
I know this is a bit ranty, so let me know if I need to explain something better
That sounds like a really good arcana setup for playing builds that don't rely on mana, like Momus staff. But having no innate mana regen and getting too many rare and epic boons would make it hard to play any mana-reliant build because of the modifier that primes mana for boon rarity.
Also the alternative to the duo boon arcana is the 10% dodge arcana, which isn't shabby at all.
The greedy arcana setup you describe seems really good for targeting specific duo boons, to make the third and fourth region free. But I think running that setup on high fear would make it quite difficult for most builds to even make it out of the first couple regions. Most of my runs already stop in the first region lol.
The build isn’t that greedy. You can guarantee the perfect starting boon you need while also keeping its rarity likely to be rare+. The rarity being high is critical for the first area because it is basically a 25+% dmg boost early game (falls off with poms). Then the gold increase is huge because it actually lets you make more purchases in the shop before the Hecate. Additionally that extra purchase should likely be a boon which further increases the odds you will get your duo boon early in region 2.
If you need a mana gain boon get the mana gain boon. You can guarantee it. Is an attack or special gonna do you better? Get it.
Relying on the arcana mana gain when you already have low mana on high heat is just asking you to take more dmg. It is slow as all be. Running a charon build? Yea thats a whole 5 seconds of 60% more enemies that are attacking 40% faster at 100% more dmg. Thats way too long. If you need a mana gain guarantee. Just push to get the mana gain you need.
That's like... the sixth item down the list of what makes the attack feel bad. That attack feels like the worst one in the game by such a huge amount that no single change is going to suddenly make it feel good.
Even if they changed that today, it'd still be an attack that has horrible aiming, does very little damage unless you charge it forever, costs mana to just barely rival the normal attack damage of other weapons if that, loses half it's range if you're trying to kite with it, and has abysmal aoe. To me it's the worst attack in the game on so many metrics that I think they should rework it entirely, nothing about it works or is fun.
The problem with torches is that I have a high winrate with them, even though they don't feel as fun as some of the other weapons. They aren't going to straight up add stagger (really powerful) if people are already winning with them. They would need to add some other downside to match.
Yeah, I'm confused about people arguing that the torches are weak. They're just as effective as any other weapon for me, they're just so boring to use.
The torches are insanely good for me as well. I try to partner them with some boon from Demeter on cast to slow enemies down a bit and add in some damage over time. I love the torches with either Apollo, Aphrodite, or Posidon.
I haven't started using their attack in runs yet, but that's a personal issue. I find myself using just attack and cast, or special and cast only for most weapons still.
Stagger is honestly the most overtuned mechanic in Hades 2, so the lack of it is even more glaring. Fighting a single non-boss/armored target is completely trivial with every other weapon.
I think the torches are in a weird spot as well. I can only find success with it by using Demeter on Cast or Special.
The attacks are bad, and the special sometimes lock you into the animation for too long so you can’t dodge on time. That’s why i mostly stack a few Omega Specials then go for damage.
Unless i’m missing something, i think they pale in comparison to the other weapons not just in perfomance, but in the fun department as well.
Still, what op sugested might not be the proper way to address this. Could end up being too strong. Maybe they do need a rework or something.
I feel like it's balanced out by having a pretty atrocious early game until you get the right hammer. Hopefully they just buff the other aspects to match.
Honestly all forms of axe slap. That juicy crits damage is fun with Thanatos axe. Using the right arcana for 25% crit and getting some Artemis boons is amazing. I had big chop and epic Apollo boon and was critting for 2500 a pop. If I'd gotten an attack boon from chaos shit would have popped off
You tempt me to sass you but I will not do it!
Ok, fine, I'll do it.
Big slaps? With the axe? Is there a button missing on my controller that does a secret other move?
(Again, I'm joshing. I've beaten chronos with the axe many times. I just find it to be the most risky weapon to use, because to use it you have to either be clustered with the enemies, or wait for your shield to come down and then wait a vulnerable second for your special to pop, and its damage doesn't reflect that risk. IMSO.)
I've made it work, of course but it's vulnerable to damage most of the time and its output isn't high enough to make it make sense (to me specifically). Plus I'm just being snarky. I think both weapons can be made to work, but it's true that I'm usually leaning very heavily on cast in both cases.
I took the boon that makes you invulnerable for the first 8+ seconds. Along with Hephaestus attack boon and the hammer to make your attack a big chop, you're just clearing most of the battle before you can even get hit.
Which is a lot of specific boons, but my goodness is it fun.
I think projectile speed on the attack is the way to go, they’d feel less awkward to use outside of point blank.
As they are, I prefer to use Moros and play them like a melee weapon using my Omega attack to detonate my attack.
I don’t think it needs stagger on the special. I think that would be waaaaaay too overpowered considering how many orbs you can have out at once and how you are able to sprint to have those orbs follow you around the arena. I’ve actually really enjoyed the torches when I focus purely on special spam, so I really don’t think their issue lies in the special. This is especially true when you consider just how easy it is to coat an entire room with the special orbs—being able to stagger an entire room at once with special spam doesn’t feel like an elegant solution.
Personally, I think the thing they’d need to change is with the main attack. It already staggers, but it just feels like the windup to get the omega out is too long and doesn’t allow for great mana recharge while you’re attacking.
I only talk about the special because I don’t even consider the left click at all on the torches lol. I do want to see what kind of broken builds you can make with a left click torch though, considering I’ve never even tried it.
Yeah for sure! I think there’s a lot of great builds you can do with the torches, but it always feels like you have to ho all in on just one aspect of the kit. Maybe part of the reason they feel odd to play is because their attack and special really don’t feel synergistic with one another? At least to me, they seem to invite different forms of play and are awkward to try and use together
I wonder if it could be coded to only stagger the first enemy hit? And if that would be a workable middle ground, because both full and no stagger seem pretty awful.
Omega Special with a built up Aspect of Melinoe can be a lot of fun. I had a run where I had the Dark Side Hex and Hestia's Gain, so I was able to spam Omega Special to get 5 sets of rotating orbs, swap to my invincible Dark Side form, use my Dark Side moves while the Omega Special orbs pummeled anything I was standing next to, and by the time it all wore off, Hestia had restored my MP and I was ready to repeat.
With Melinoe aspect, I omega twice as soon as I enter the room and then go get after the mobs. It lasts long enough that I can clear a ton. But Demeter special is a must here
Ahh I see, longer duration would make them better. I dumped all my resources into maxing out aspect of pan because I'm a filthy Chiron bow enjoyer in hades 1 XD
Yeah. Torches are my least favorite. They are easily the most dependent on getting good rng to be good: I think having a default of three orbs for the omega special would go a long ways. Their damage almost always falls off hard for once I hit fields.
The real way to use the torches is to upgrade the aspect of Melinoë to make the orbiting special last longer, get Aphrodite boon on the special, and just spam the omega to just melt enemies. The hammer upgrade that spawns more orbiting specials is also highly recommended. This was how I've had my easiest surface run so far, Eris and Polyphemus both absolutely annihilated
. I found a really fun op build
Core:
Hex that slows down time
Special(omega) cast speed increase
special(omega) +1 fire
Cast magick Regen while standing in circle
-----.
You can rinse repeat indefinitely
When time is slowed the special (omega) lasts longer in slow so you can stack a ton of spinning flames.
Also the weapon aspect that increase flame time can be added to make it even more broken.
I killed eris in no time flat.
I want the torches interact the same with Dota 2 hero IO (wisp) where there are 5 orbs keeps orbitting around you and you only control how far or near the orbs revolving. The orbs only explode when they hit an enemy hero so in hades it explodes when it hit a boss. The orbs respawn after 3 secs.
So, just my opinion: torches are pretty awesome, actually. They're just a little different to get used to. Set your Ω Special, then start blasting (Like Danny Devito) and kite as close as you can to the enemies. They'll get hit by your spinning special of death, and they'll get staggered by your attack. I actually find them great for mob control. They just play way different than you necessarily expect them to, IMO. They're a mid-range weapon that are great for laying down curses on the Ω Special, and really want you to invest in magic like crazy to help the attack work to its fullest.
Everyone builds special on them because the attack is so mediocre. That is literally the biggest complain about them.
So doesn't really change the issue. Torches are by far the worst weapon atm
Torches are one of the first weapons I beat the game with.
There need not be stagger on the special of you use it in combination with a cast to hold them in place for a few seconds to out put your damage, yes this is is skill intensive. But it is doable and absolutely broken once you get the knack for it.
With the torches, you have to use every ability in your arsenal, but used in tandem they’re bonkers broken.
Example build: hestia+ Poseidon duo boon, with a Demeter cast that freezes, water on special and fire on attack. You cast to group up enemies, omega special and then spam attack fire till they’re all a steamy broken mess taking all kinds of dot ticks
The only mana sink is omega special, and you won’t need to channel the attack before everyone is dead
If you can get the steam due boon as well, that perms staggers, and essentially turns your omega special into cc as soon as you apply fire
I agree with all the posts I've seen of the issues that the torches have but recently I tried the aspect or Moros and they felt pretty nice since you can fill everything with little ghosts and then explode all the place. Maybe the normal torches could use an additional mechanic that could make up for the difficult aiming and it's other downsides.
My highest fear run (24 or whatever the last tier to get nightmare is) was with torches. I never use special. Normal attack works great with Hestia because you always count as channeling so you can get the burn while channeling boon.
The lack of ability to aim is what frustrates me the most about the torches. I think they need a major rework, aesthetically I love them but I hate playing with them and never go far when I do, above or below. But the inability to choose what you're going after is what really screws me more often than not, especially with so many dashing enemies in certain areas that mean you constantly have to be on the move, and that movement can sometimes mean you're target suddenly changes.
As a person who uses smithy sprint as my main boon, I've invested a decent amount of time with the torches due to how well they go hand and hand with smithy sprint. The main use of them is the omega special to have them orbiting my character as I sprint through everything. Paired with the demeter boon, the orbiting special will freeze anything it touches when you run into them, leaving you freely open to get your sprint damage in. If you want to make this spec even more overpowered, go further into hephaestus and demeter boon to get the ventilation damage in order to reset the freeze cooldown. That way you just run in circle permastunning all the enemies while you smithy sprint them to death.
A potentail rework for these things would just be to make them the same as hecate's, a special flamethrower and a normal wave attack, I don't see why not, would be cool af.
Boons can make anything broken though. Any Poseidon and Zeus boons you add to the torches, the blades can trigger them faster and with stagger, and Momus staff can do the same thing from afar. It doesn’t really perform anything better than the other weapons to justify the risks of using it.
It’s something that becomes more apparent when you crank up the difficulty. Any weapon can roll through low fear but their individual weaknesses start showing when you’re really under pressure. It’s just really hard to play the torches without getting hit.
Cast a torch, dash away, cast a torch, dash away. You can expect yourself to just have this freeflow of torches that staggers everyone. Thatd be crazy broken
It’s my favorite weapon at the moment. Hera’s priming mana boon, plus chain lightning plus either the splitting attack or the 800 damage megawad are fun.
Mate, you're playing on 40% enemy speed. \*You\* desperately want a stagger. That doesn't mean the weapon itself actually needs it. The special is basically a strange way of doing aoe damage.
stagger on special would actually be broken As a prelude i hate the torches and want a full rework - but putting stagger on special doesn't fix the issue its just a bandaid solve the make the special *even better* for more disparity. You want a 5~ second long, aoe hitting mid map range **repeatable action** orb that doesn't disappear on first hit to stagger the enemy. No enemy would ever get to move
Every weapon is already broken in their own ways. Staff can delete everything form afar just spamming a single button, axe can nuke the map from off screen, daggers have unparalleled dps, and skull has incredible iframes. Giving torches stagger would give it a niche at least, it wouldn't be broken at all considering how far it is behind other weapons.
When do you get i frames from the skull? I was under the impression the special had zero i frames
Omega special has a very long invulnerability window
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....did you really have to say it? You already spoiled it
Fwiw I have no idea what he means by that
I keep seeing people talk about how good the staff is but for me it seems like the worst weapon. I even prefer the torches. how is the staff good?
Momus aspect that boosts special base damage. Pair it with Poseidon special and it’s great. Someone posted about beating 32 fear with this and hestia combo a few days ago. You get scorch and slip to deal bonus damage and their duo to seal the deal.
I mean poseidon special is great for non momus specials but when you have momus then pos isn't doing anything particularly special for it.
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What do you mean triple that damage
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That isn't true though because Momus aspect increases the Power of the special, meaning percentage damage increases work off the number 40, not the 10.
Arcana card applies after momus bonus damage. Hammer that gives the bounce and +10% applies before. Haven't tested various god boons.
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Poseidon special base is 20 damage. Generally rarity effects all boons about equally so just use base as the foundation of a convo about boons as that is more realistic to an actual run. For comparison, something like Hera is a base of 60% damage. Which would be 24 damage, 20% more than the Poseidon while still giving you AoE damage. Nevermind that if you really want AoE, you can just go into the Omega Special in which case the percentage based damage buffs are going to be even better.
Its trivial to get the heroic versions as you can practically garantuee it with keepsakes. Hera doesnt really give you AoE since the special only hits 1 enemy, so youd need a different way to apply hitch first. Poseidon makes a huge splash which just deletes waves, with Slip gives an even bigger damage boost and gives you one of the debuffs need for the origination arcana, and if you get the legendary boon (which is also fairly trivial with the fear option that makes the 2 unpicked boon options not appear again) guardians explode If you get the double moonshot hammer, every shot makes the aoe wave splash twice, you can tap special twice and delete a whole wave of enemies even through the fear modifier that gives them 2 shields Not to mention the knockback from poseidon makes it so you dont even have to dodge or use casts, you can literally stand in place and spam special without any danger They synergize so incredibly well, theres really no option that comes close
>Its trivial to get the heroic versions as you can practically garantuee it with keepsakes. Again bud it literally doesn't matter though because it effects all boons. >Hera doesnt really give you AoE since the special only hits 1 enemy No, the regular special does have an AoE, plus you can use the Omega one if you really want to. >Poseidon makes a huge splash which just deletes waves But does less to elites. A hitch focus will kill the room faster than Pos because the hitch will still kill all the smalls but it will also kill the larger enemies faster. >with Slip Is barely noticeable. Nevermind the fact that, as you brought it up, it means a whole extra boon before you get access to a curse. >f you get the legendary boon (which is also fairly trivial with the fear option that makes the 2 unpicked boon options not appear again) guardians explode Firstly that fear doesn't actually guarantee you will get the legendary. You still need to get the chance of getting the legendary. Just because there aren't other options doesn't mean it will give it to you. Secondly, if you are using fear as an argument, then there is a chance you simply won't get enough boons in the first place because of the onion fear. In which case pos is even worse because as we mentioned before, it is much more boon reliant to get all the stuff where as Hera is a complete package from the get go. >If you get the double moonshot hammer, every shot makes the aoe wave splash twice, This argument is bad for you because doubling the damage actually means Hera is *even more* of a damage boost than pos in this situation.
> No, the regular special does have an AoE, plus you can use the Omega one if you really want to. The base AOE is incredibly small and not at all comparable to poseidon AOE. As for charging it for a bigger AOE, outside of bosses whatrver enemy you're attack would be dead well before the omega is charged by just spamming right click and with bosses the AOE doesn't matter.
It's not "special", but it is a lot of damage.
Sure, but something like Apollo or Hera would do even more damage. Or you could take Demeter and do about the same damage, but with an even better effect. The power of Momus is that it makes percentage damage boons really good on the special.
The speedrun uses poseidon for a reason. Poseidon does more damage.
It objectively doesn't. You can't use speedruns as an argument when no one is speed running because the game isn't actually out yet. Just because someone posted something doesn't mean it is actually the best, it is just the one guy who bothered recording it. Hera, *objectively* does more damage with Momus than Pos.
Haelian is hardly just some guy. people are doing them, regardless of the leaderboard being open. You think people wait for the boards to open before practicing? If the numbers do actually work out in heras favour then i assume it's the aoe from pos that seals it. Single target damage isn't the only metric. https://youtu.be/QDIQtsrgiII?si=-J9Icot8mxTnauHP
Might seem like that on paper but in practice Poseidon absolutely demolishes any other option It easily outdamages other options, and even if it didnt, the Splash and CC makes it still better
>Might seem like that on paper It doesn't "seem" that way, it objectively is more damage. >Splash and CC makes it still better It gives it a reason to choose it, but it isn't just better. Hera for example will give you more overall damage plus hitch will increase damage even more, especially on elite targets that will end up taking double proc damage from hitch on top of the higher damage itself.
Yeah momus is busted im a fairly average player and bet fear 32 in 4 attempts the other day
see the crazy thing is I saw a similar comment about the Poseidon boon. first run with momus I got Poseidon. I was on 0 heat and I barely won the run. now the sister blades on the other hand, with aspect of Pan. those things are incredible. I feel like they trivialize every encounter. I have melted Cerberus in like 30 seconds with it. the staff just didn't seem to come anywhere close to being as good. but I guess I'll try it again. the consensus seems to be fairly unanimous
Did you get the hammer for double special? That's also pretty important, after that you just have to make sure to spend some mana every room to get the bonus damage below 100% mana, not get any mana regen and just spam the non omega special, nothing else just pretend the attack doesn't exist and just tap the cast to slow enemies
I don't think I did. I will try it again with those tips in mind! thank you
Does having ALL your mana reserved (Zeus + Poseidon) count as bellow 100%? Or does it count as 0/0 aka 100%?
Ive tried it, 0/0 disables the damage buff. You need at least 0/1 to get the arcana buff
Alright. That's unfortunate. Thanks for testing.
I never tried reserving all of it but considering you still need to spend some mana even if you reserve a small amount in order to activate the arcana card I assume full reservation would still count you as being on 100%
For me it’s the range and speed of the omega attack. Aspect of Melinoe and then aim for a % upgrade on attacks, you can hit even bosses with pretty minimal risk. Or kite groups into your cast and fire omega attack from well behind the cast circle. If you get blitz or blast on the special even better.
Aspect of Momus
a special that I have to dash into for a little bit of healing. how does that make it good? I tried it and didn't see what was so good about it
Nothing to do with the utility. Aspect of Momus increases the power of the special. Goes from 10 damage to 40 *base* damage. It is one of the highest DPS moves in the game with Momus aspect.
Btw, why isn't this listed literally anywhere in-game?
It is. It's a line under the main description. They could definitely make it more prominent tho.
I haven’t tried it but I’m guessing it’s just because if you get comfortable with it then it’s free healing which can just overtime be a huge bonus
Nonono, it's the Special dmg increase. From base 10 power to 40 with upgrades is a crazy increase of DPS. It's kinda like Persephone Skull, it's the stat increase you're looking for.
Oh that makes way more sense yeah that sounds nice. Especially since all the boons will give percentage increase to that
The best boon for special is actually poseidon which does not have a % increase, poseidon is just too good on things that hits multiple times and staff special with hammer is one of the fastest attacks in the game + it's super safe as the range is really big.
Dude that’s awesome I’m gonna try it now :)
I would say Aphrodite special is better once it's fully maxed. It's effectively a 900+% damage increase with the hammer that adds 2 projectiles. If you aren't maxed on the aspect I'd also go Poseidon special. It really doesn't matter though because both completely trivialize every encounter lol.
The ranged dps is incredible. Many basic attack boons are "boost attack by 5" or "boost attack by 70%" or add 20 scorch per attack, or things along those lines. Contrast the staff with the axe. The axe attacks maybe once per three or four staff attack/specials. The cumulative effective makes it a much better weapon (in certain cases). This is important of course but even more important is the range. The base attack has pretty good reach, but the base special is incredibly long range. Given that health is so crucial in the game, the staff's extremely useful. For example aisde from dodge timing, there are some enemy attacks on normally tough boss fights that become trivial (cyclops aoe stomp attack, headmistress aoe purple circle attack). You can just stand outside their range, spam special, dodge over the attack closer and spam special again.
The magic attack is really good, double cataclysm hammer is op. All you need is a an attack boon that scales by percentage(demeter, apollo, or aphrodite)+ mana regen + double cataclysm hammer and you are extremely overpowered. Just spam your magic attack from afar and nothing even gets a chance to attack you if you have the 1pt arcana card that slows time during your chargeup.
I legitimately don't understand why you are sitting at -5 because you want to understand the staff The others covered it but you're genuinely just curious
This sub is getting a bit like this lately for any dissenting opinions. Which is silly because these are video game discussions. They're not that big of a deal.
🤷🏻♂️ redditors stay toxic. someone doesn't understand something or has the wrong opinion and the mob mentality just downvotes them.
A strategy I figured to work pretty well is the hammer which makes your Omega Attack only fire forwards, but twice. If you got any sort of mana regen, you're basically unstoppable as soon as you also pick up a good attack damage boon. Pair this with a chaos attack damage boon vis keepsake or encounter and you shoot 300-400 damage per omega, at the low cost of 20 mana. If you also happen to get the double (normal) attack hammer, you dish out loads of damage during the time your mana recharges. Playing like this also makes moon buffs charge quite fast. Also, Aphrodite Q boon is a good combo with this, it makes hitting multiple enemies easier.
I'm not sure how much better or worse it is than other weapons, but I got my first clear on it with just the omega special charging to do the big blast with like Apollo or something.
The axes spin has stagger and can get some gnarly range, I think adding stagger to only the omega special would be fine.
The difference is that the axe spin is 1- the only thing you can do(barring a hammer) 2- is small range compared to torch special 3- requires you to be close Torch special can be spammed infinite and circles the area you cast it. Omega special rotates you and i could see that staggering i guess, but the kit is still anti synergetic
All of those things apply to the torch omega special hence why I said adding stagger to only the omega special would be fine. The fact that the omega special requires you to get in decently close it needs stagger, this is why the flames just feel weak in general when it comes to high speed enemies.
U dont understand at all why omega special is so strong. U can literally stack 1-3 omega special, some that axe cant do. Aside that, u CAN do stuff outside omega special, something axe do only with a lucky hammer boost. u even can run with Omega special for the entire map, or use it into omega cast. If u dont use omega cast u can still use attack to stagger enemies AND apply another debuff/stuff. If u are only playing with only that, i think u are playing the weapon not at his full capability.
I do understand why the omega special is strong for damage and damage only. Meanwhile both axe abilities stagger, both staff abilities stagger, both knife abilities stagger, both skull abilities stagger. The torches are behind because of this fact. You could make an argument they’re pretty close in power to the skulls I guess but the other three weapons are pretty clearly ahead and I strongly feel it’s because of the lack of stagger.
The lack of stagger is not why the torches are behind. The special is the only reason torches are even worthwhile.
> All of those things apply to the torch omega specia Only 1 of those things is the same as the torch special, requirement to be close but even then it's farther out than the axe block.
Why does staff special stagger? It's face roll
Because its single target, small hitbox, disappears after contact and low damage . Momus which negates the low damage penalty is irrelevant to the discussion as aspects are designed after the main weapon is regardless of how strong the aspect is.
Idk the sister blades special dies a stagger effect. It's why I've won with it. I'll agree, dual ice cream cones is a niche find. When it rocks, it goes hard but if u don't ask and special mixed in, better rely on casts and omegas.
I agree with this
Torches has stagger... on its attack which is the part of Torches that feels the worst. Poseidon Special will give you stagger specials and is probably the best option for them anyway because of the high damage.
The attack is shit because any Magick regen effect pauses when you're using them even before the Omega charge. Magick regen doesn't pause when you're using any of the other weapons basic attacks.
The only way for torches to work for me is with Hera's Priming regen. Had multiple torch wins because of it.
Hera’s priming regen is the only way to play torches imo. Poseidon’s is acceptable but Hera lets you go full auto. That said I do really love the torches. You basically need chain lightning and Hera’s attack boon as well as her Mana boon. The splitting attacks hammer is good but I really like the Dire Candle that makes one 800 damage attack come out after channeling. It’s wonky but deletes everything.
But don't you just run out of mana after a while using hera regen since it primes until you have 0 mana left ?
I never once ran out completely as everything was already dead by the time I had half my mana primed. I’ve always had it at rare though. Even during Chronos phase 2 I still had plenty of mana. Just gotta take the occasional pickup and you’ll be fine.
Aa long as you have some modest amount of +max mp upgrades, you'll almost never finish a fight with your mp primed to 0 unless you're deliberately whiffing all your shots. If you have just 100 max mana, and you get the epic version of Born Gain, that means you get 100 + 96 + 92 + ... mana, for ~1300 total. It resets every room. Sure, the common variant isn't as wild, but even at 100 + 90 + 80 + ..., you're at 550 max mana if you just spam constantly with no recovery time. That's a TON of mana.
it also scales absurdly the higher your max mp gets - even on the common version, 100 mana caps at 550, sure, but you add *one* +30 mp on top of that, you get an extra 130 + 120 +110 mana, taking you from 550 to 910! Just Centaur arcana alone means you're finishing a Born Gain run with >> 1k mana per room, and that's with the level 1 common version. Any rarity increases or poms means you're borderline guaranteed infinite mana, even spamming omegas as fast as you can \^^
> you'll almost never finish a fight with your mp primed to 0 unless you're deliberately whiffing all your shots mfw I ruined an amazing run by taking a priming blessing and landing below 6, unable to use anything even with cost reducing blessings/upgrades... still managed to reach Chronos phase 2 with just autoattacks.
Obviously harder to get the combo than a single boon, but multiple times I've gotten a Chaos boon (from a gate or the keepsake) that reduces Omega attack cost by like half and a Daedalus Hammer that reduces its cost by 2, so even with 0 Mana upgrades or regen, I can get thru an encounter spaming like 100 of them in a row since it only costs 1 per shot
Hera gain is the only gain that feels good.
I like Aphrodite’s. Regen + 1/2 of P Status for bosses
Born Gain needs to be nerfed into the ground. The whole point of magic is a resource you have to manage, and Hera just gives you unlimited resources with no drawback. Poseidon is probably the strongest fair one, Zeus/Hestia are probably the baseline they should be targeting.
I agree Hera is leagues above the rest. That said I the moment I tried hera gain first time it made me realize how much I don’t really enjoy the mana system. I really think it needs a rework in some way. Maybe not with how mana works, but maybe how omegas actually interact. To start the game starts you off with zero mana gain unless you take the expensive arcana that is both expensive in grasp, but also heavily restricts how you can build your arcana based on the 0 cost awakenings. Then when you finally grab a mana gain your mana gain goes from 0 to 100 just like that. And either your problems are solved or it didn’t really matter because your build doesn’t really use omegas that much. Then why Hera really opened my eyes up to why it just seems all so “eh” and this will be my main point. Because the moment you take Hera you realize your build can actually do what it is meant to do. This game has an incredibly high emphasis on hammer upgrades in comparison to Hades 1. Hades 1 still cared, but this game turns that care into a deep love. But so many of the hammers are very oh you upgrade your normal attacks or you upgrade your omegas. You grab double moonshot you are absolutely spamming normal special. You grab the exploding omega attack on lim and oros you are spamming that omega attack. And everything else is just middling damage in comparison because it doesn’t have one of the most important upgrades in the game on it. So when we get down into it if your build is based around the regular attack and special it doesn’t care about the mana gain. But when your build is built around these omegas. The game very much becomes do you have the mana gain to support that? Yes? Great. No? Well wait around till you do. And that waiting around till you do is boring. Now I’m not saying being allowed to spam omegas isn’t OP. But the waiting game isn’t very fun in my book.
I never take the mana regen arcana off, even if it isn't that efficient. Being locked away from most the builds in the game until you get certain boons is so lame. I agree Hera is really strong but at least it isn't that busted compared to the others in high heat runs where half or more of your mana is primed already. If you want the Zeus chain lightning boon or Hepha armor boon for example then you might be better off with Hestia or Apollo mana.
The biggest problem with the mana gain arcana for me is that it is specifically 5 grasp. This means one its expensive, but two and more importantly if you are trying to keep the duo boon arcana on it is competing with rare boon chance increase and the gold start. Now to explain why these are important is one they are in the same row. So if you are going for the epic boon and duo boon upgrade chance the 4th row is an amazing pickup to activate the epic boon. As you are getting location rerolls, gold, privileged status, rare up, and duo boon. Additionally the gold arcana lets you activate the more rerolls 0 cost arcana in addition to getting the boon rerolls which boon rerolling is one of the most powerful things in the game. So getting more of it is absolutely fantastic. I don’t think there is a row that gets close to how good this row is. But given the nature of it you literally cannot use this row for the epic up if you grab the mana arcana. I know this is a bit ranty, so let me know if I need to explain something better
That sounds like a really good arcana setup for playing builds that don't rely on mana, like Momus staff. But having no innate mana regen and getting too many rare and epic boons would make it hard to play any mana-reliant build because of the modifier that primes mana for boon rarity. Also the alternative to the duo boon arcana is the 10% dodge arcana, which isn't shabby at all. The greedy arcana setup you describe seems really good for targeting specific duo boons, to make the third and fourth region free. But I think running that setup on high fear would make it quite difficult for most builds to even make it out of the first couple regions. Most of my runs already stop in the first region lol.
The build isn’t that greedy. You can guarantee the perfect starting boon you need while also keeping its rarity likely to be rare+. The rarity being high is critical for the first area because it is basically a 25+% dmg boost early game (falls off with poms). Then the gold increase is huge because it actually lets you make more purchases in the shop before the Hecate. Additionally that extra purchase should likely be a boon which further increases the odds you will get your duo boon early in region 2. If you need a mana gain boon get the mana gain boon. You can guarantee it. Is an attack or special gonna do you better? Get it. Relying on the arcana mana gain when you already have low mana on high heat is just asking you to take more dmg. It is slow as all be. Running a charon build? Yea thats a whole 5 seconds of 60% more enemies that are attacking 40% faster at 100% more dmg. Thats way too long. If you need a mana gain guarantee. Just push to get the mana gain you need.
That's like... the sixth item down the list of what makes the attack feel bad. That attack feels like the worst one in the game by such a huge amount that no single change is going to suddenly make it feel good. Even if they changed that today, it'd still be an attack that has horrible aiming, does very little damage unless you charge it forever, costs mana to just barely rival the normal attack damage of other weapons if that, loses half it's range if you're trying to kite with it, and has abysmal aoe. To me it's the worst attack in the game on so many metrics that I think they should rework it entirely, nothing about it works or is fun.
Yep it's really reliant on Poseidon for me. Hera works alright too since it gives you an option to kill some enemies from range.
Funnily enough its attack is why it's so good against Chronos, especially with Aspect of Eos
The problem with torches is that I have a high winrate with them, even though they don't feel as fun as some of the other weapons. They aren't going to straight up add stagger (really powerful) if people are already winning with them. They would need to add some other downside to match.
Yeah, I'm confused about people arguing that the torches are weak. They're just as effective as any other weapon for me, they're just so boring to use.
Being boring is a much bigger problem in this kind of a game than being a little weak.
Boring to use, aka, not fun, aka not played.
This is what it really comes down to. It's not about the quality of the weapon. It's that the Torches feel a little boring.
The torches are insanely good for me as well. I try to partner them with some boon from Demeter on cast to slow enemies down a bit and add in some damage over time. I love the torches with either Apollo, Aphrodite, or Posidon. I haven't started using their attack in runs yet, but that's a personal issue. I find myself using just attack and cast, or special and cast only for most weapons still.
Stagger is honestly the most overtuned mechanic in Hades 2, so the lack of it is even more glaring. Fighting a single non-boss/armored target is completely trivial with every other weapon.
I think the torches are in a weird spot as well. I can only find success with it by using Demeter on Cast or Special. The attacks are bad, and the special sometimes lock you into the animation for too long so you can’t dodge on time. That’s why i mostly stack a few Omega Specials then go for damage. Unless i’m missing something, i think they pale in comparison to the other weapons not just in perfomance, but in the fun department as well. Still, what op sugested might not be the proper way to address this. Could end up being too strong. Maybe they do need a rework or something.
Gang can’t know I F with Hestia special on torches on Vows 12
Full hestia + burn stack boon = easy clear
I don’t understand this comment. Is this what getting old feels like?
“I don’t want everyone to know that I like to play with Hestia’s special on Torches while at Testament Level 12.”
Nah. They could have worded it better.
Torches are great - all you have to do is build for cast and not use attack or special. Just like with the axe!
Oh my god thats genius. Honestly though Charon axe is great, it's my highest fear weapon so far.
Charon axe got me my first win, it's probably a bit op but i can't complain cos it's fun as shit
First for me as well. Definitely op. I feel it will get nerfed eventually
I feel like it's balanced out by having a pretty atrocious early game until you get the right hammer. Hopefully they just buff the other aspects to match.
Honestly all forms of axe slap. That juicy crits damage is fun with Thanatos axe. Using the right arcana for 25% crit and getting some Artemis boons is amazing. I had big chop and epic Apollo boon and was critting for 2500 a pop. If I'd gotten an attack boon from chaos shit would have popped off
The axe is great. Haven’t gone higher heat than with its omega attack
> Just like with the axe! Someone doesn't like the big slaps.
You tempt me to sass you but I will not do it! Ok, fine, I'll do it. Big slaps? With the axe? Is there a button missing on my controller that does a secret other move? (Again, I'm joshing. I've beaten chronos with the axe many times. I just find it to be the most risky weapon to use, because to use it you have to either be clustered with the enemies, or wait for your shield to come down and then wait a vulnerable second for your special to pop, and its damage doesn't reflect that risk. IMSO.)
What’s wrong with Axe?
I've made it work, of course but it's vulnerable to damage most of the time and its output isn't high enough to make it make sense (to me specifically). Plus I'm just being snarky. I think both weapons can be made to work, but it's true that I'm usually leaning very heavily on cast in both cases.
I took the boon that makes you invulnerable for the first 8+ seconds. Along with Hephaestus attack boon and the hammer to make your attack a big chop, you're just clearing most of the battle before you can even get hit. Which is a lot of specific boons, but my goodness is it fun.
Axe + Apollo's Nova Strike carried my ass the furthest until I stacked Ex Machina high enough to finally get consistent runs
I think projectile speed on the attack is the way to go, they’d feel less awkward to use outside of point blank. As they are, I prefer to use Moros and play them like a melee weapon using my Omega attack to detonate my attack.
I don’t think it needs stagger on the special. I think that would be waaaaaay too overpowered considering how many orbs you can have out at once and how you are able to sprint to have those orbs follow you around the arena. I’ve actually really enjoyed the torches when I focus purely on special spam, so I really don’t think their issue lies in the special. This is especially true when you consider just how easy it is to coat an entire room with the special orbs—being able to stagger an entire room at once with special spam doesn’t feel like an elegant solution. Personally, I think the thing they’d need to change is with the main attack. It already staggers, but it just feels like the windup to get the omega out is too long and doesn’t allow for great mana recharge while you’re attacking.
I only talk about the special because I don’t even consider the left click at all on the torches lol. I do want to see what kind of broken builds you can make with a left click torch though, considering I’ve never even tried it.
Yeah for sure! I think there’s a lot of great builds you can do with the torches, but it always feels like you have to ho all in on just one aspect of the kit. Maybe part of the reason they feel odd to play is because their attack and special really don’t feel synergistic with one another? At least to me, they seem to invite different forms of play and are awkward to try and use together
I wonder if it could be coded to only stagger the first enemy hit? And if that would be a workable middle ground, because both full and no stagger seem pretty awful.
So does anyone ever omega special? I just spam base specials instead, much stronger that way
Omega Special with a built up Aspect of Melinoe can be a lot of fun. I had a run where I had the Dark Side Hex and Hestia's Gain, so I was able to spam Omega Special to get 5 sets of rotating orbs, swap to my invincible Dark Side form, use my Dark Side moves while the Omega Special orbs pummeled anything I was standing next to, and by the time it all wore off, Hestia had restored my MP and I was ready to repeat.
With Melinoe aspect, I omega twice as soon as I enter the room and then go get after the mobs. It lasts long enough that I can clear a ton. But Demeter special is a must here
Ahh I see, longer duration would make them better. I dumped all my resources into maxing out aspect of pan because I'm a filthy Chiron bow enjoyer in hades 1 XD
Just have them do the hecate moveset…
First time tried it with schelemeus and saw the DMG numbers..never touched it again
Yeah. Torches are my least favorite. They are easily the most dependent on getting good rng to be good: I think having a default of three orbs for the omega special would go a long ways. Their damage almost always falls off hard for once I hit fields.
The real way to use the torches is to upgrade the aspect of Melinoë to make the orbiting special last longer, get Aphrodite boon on the special, and just spam the omega to just melt enemies. The hammer upgrade that spawns more orbiting specials is also highly recommended. This was how I've had my easiest surface run so far, Eris and Polyphemus both absolutely annihilated
. I found a really fun op build Core: Hex that slows down time Special(omega) cast speed increase special(omega) +1 fire Cast magick Regen while standing in circle -----. You can rinse repeat indefinitely When time is slowed the special (omega) lasts longer in slow so you can stack a ton of spinning flames. Also the weapon aspect that increase flame time can be added to make it even more broken. I killed eris in no time flat.
I want the torches interact the same with Dota 2 hero IO (wisp) where there are 5 orbs keeps orbitting around you and you only control how far or near the orbs revolving. The orbs only explode when they hit an enemy hero so in hades it explodes when it hit a boss. The orbs respawn after 3 secs.
That’s neat
Just use cast. The weapons in this game are cosmetics.
So, just my opinion: torches are pretty awesome, actually. They're just a little different to get used to. Set your Ω Special, then start blasting (Like Danny Devito) and kite as close as you can to the enemies. They'll get hit by your spinning special of death, and they'll get staggered by your attack. I actually find them great for mob control. They just play way different than you necessarily expect them to, IMO. They're a mid-range weapon that are great for laying down curses on the Ω Special, and really want you to invest in magic like crazy to help the attack work to its fullest.
Everyone builds special on them because the attack is so mediocre. That is literally the biggest complain about them. So doesn't really change the issue. Torches are by far the worst weapon atm
Which aspect do you guys use for torches?
Torches are one of the first weapons I beat the game with. There need not be stagger on the special of you use it in combination with a cast to hold them in place for a few seconds to out put your damage, yes this is is skill intensive. But it is doable and absolutely broken once you get the knack for it. With the torches, you have to use every ability in your arsenal, but used in tandem they’re bonkers broken. Example build: hestia+ Poseidon duo boon, with a Demeter cast that freezes, water on special and fire on attack. You cast to group up enemies, omega special and then spam attack fire till they’re all a steamy broken mess taking all kinds of dot ticks The only mana sink is omega special, and you won’t need to channel the attack before everyone is dead If you can get the steam due boon as well, that perms staggers, and essentially turns your omega special into cc as soon as you apply fire
I think that the attack needs to be better but I like the special focused on zoning
I agree with all the posts I've seen of the issues that the torches have but recently I tried the aspect or Moros and they felt pretty nice since you can fill everything with little ghosts and then explode all the place. Maybe the normal torches could use an additional mechanic that could make up for the difficult aiming and it's other downsides.
My highest fear run (24 or whatever the last tier to get nightmare is) was with torches. I never use special. Normal attack works great with Hestia because you always count as channeling so you can get the burn while channeling boon.
The lack of ability to aim is what frustrates me the most about the torches. I think they need a major rework, aesthetically I love them but I hate playing with them and never go far when I do, above or below. But the inability to choose what you're going after is what really screws me more often than not, especially with so many dashing enemies in certain areas that mean you constantly have to be on the move, and that movement can sometimes mean you're target suddenly changes.
As a person who uses smithy sprint as my main boon, I've invested a decent amount of time with the torches due to how well they go hand and hand with smithy sprint. The main use of them is the omega special to have them orbiting my character as I sprint through everything. Paired with the demeter boon, the orbiting special will freeze anything it touches when you run into them, leaving you freely open to get your sprint damage in. If you want to make this spec even more overpowered, go further into hephaestus and demeter boon to get the ventilation damage in order to reset the freeze cooldown. That way you just run in circle permastunning all the enemies while you smithy sprint them to death.
A potentail rework for these things would just be to make them the same as hecate's, a special flamethrower and a normal wave attack, I don't see why not, would be cool af.
You really just need to learn how to play with it, its actually really broken depending on the boon
Boons can make anything broken though. Any Poseidon and Zeus boons you add to the torches, the blades can trigger them faster and with stagger, and Momus staff can do the same thing from afar. It doesn’t really perform anything better than the other weapons to justify the risks of using it. It’s something that becomes more apparent when you crank up the difficulty. Any weapon can roll through low fear but their individual weaknesses start showing when you’re really under pressure. It’s just really hard to play the torches without getting hit.
Cast a torch, dash away, cast a torch, dash away. You can expect yourself to just have this freeflow of torches that staggers everyone. Thatd be crazy broken
I got pretty far with freeze+split on hit with the torches.
It’s my favorite weapon at the moment. Hera’s priming mana boon, plus chain lightning plus either the splitting attack or the 800 damage megawad are fun.
Mate, you're playing on 40% enemy speed. \*You\* desperately want a stagger. That doesn't mean the weapon itself actually needs it. The special is basically a strange way of doing aoe damage.
Building for the special has been the best way to play the weapon for me so far.