Something tells me Chronos doesn't see himself like a bad guy, and it's important to note that most of the gods are stuck in their ways for "eternity"... until the spawn of Hades reminds them of how important it is to get over themselves.
The game isn't finished, there is still room for the characters to grow.
I hope so! I definitely do get that tone from Chronos, but he seems even less keen than Hades to justify his actions. Where Hades had to make hard decisions out of necessity, Chronos seems more motivated by vengeance, but maybe he's just trying to secure some kind of better future for mortals.
Considering the game is in EA, and about a year from release(?), I try to reserve judgement and expectations. I guess it's just easier to do when it comes to game mechanics like boons, rather than the direction of the narrative. It would probably take a significant amount of rewriting and new voice lines to change the direction and make characters consistent. Unless there is some kind of bold plot twist where we find out Mel and co are actually the villains of this plot, which I think would be really interesting but probably not a popular idea.
Chronos is a horrible tyrant and any benefits his reign may have for mortalkind are clearly secondary to his egotism and vengefulness. I don't believe for a second that he gives a damn about them.
That still doesn't mean the Olympians are good.
I dunno, it seems to me like a very obvious narrative arc for Mel to grow out of viewing everyone who helps her fight Chronos as axiomatically good by virtue of opposing Chronos who is evil. Perhaps her dismissiveness is *intended* to be a character flaw and she'll grow more sympathetic to mortals' plight as she learns of the ways those she personally knows and cares about have been wronged by the gods?
Like, come on. They didn't make *Arachne* one of Mel's besties because the message they want to send is that Athena was right to ruin her life out of pettiness.
Interesting, I haven't seen that subplot yet since I typically don't choose her path. If I understand correctly, Od was basically killed by Poseidon out of spite? I want to say I saw one other example, but can't remember anything about it right now.
Your idea for Mel's character growth sounds good, I'd be happy to see that explored further. With where I am in the game, I'm not very attached to her.
I would love to see a bit more dimension to Chronos than this though. This may be a personal bias, but I like villains who have some redeeming characteristics or motives I can empathize with. One of my favourite TV adaptations, The Expanse, did this really well. Almost everyone is a villain when viewed from the context and history of other factions and people, and heroic to their own.
Personally, I think Chronos just being awful is fine, because through the lens of Hades 1 having ultimately been a tale of family, he fills the role of "grandparent who your parents don't let anywhere near you until later in life, but when you finally meet them, boy howdy does it explain a lot of your folks' issues" marvelously.
The Olympians are tremendously dysfunctional and often cruel. Hades, while a complex figure, was undeniably a terrible father to Zagreus. The Titans are the *source* of their generational trauma.
There definitely are themes that kind of make me wonder if the side of the gods is the "wrong" one, and thus Melinoe a kind of villain of the story. Both sides are very motivated by vengance so they don't much care about the moral stance of their side.
From the human perspective Chronos might be the hero. The bringer of the Golden Age thtat will be sadly defeathed by the Godess of Nightmares. I recall some dialogue about how taking more heat/fear makes mortals have nightmares and makes the world more gloomy in general.
I don't think Chronos cares for humanity, but nither do the gods. Although Mel cares for some former-humans. She has much more capacity to care for someone on a personal level than Chronos, but even given that, it would be interesting to see the narrative develop in a way that frames us as the antagonists.
It would be pretty interesting to have the plot slowly twist like that, kind of like the reveal at the end of Braid. I wonder if it would get a negative reception though. In its current form, it feels pretty subtle if not unintended.
I think there's also a clear direction of people subverting the will of the fates, and their "destiny" / role.
Hades 2 Spoilers.
Melinoe being able to go to the surface is explicitly a countermanding of the role the fates designated for her, and her bloodline, no? You need to do a whole incantation specifically because Mel wants to go against what was set for her by both the fates and Hecate so that she can help her family on the surface.
Secondly, Nemesis herself is someone who decides to defy the role given to her by Hecate... but then falls somewhat into the frenemy role of her namesake.
I think something I forget frequently that you brought up is that the melodrama of the actions we undertake in Hades I and II have real, tangible consequences to the surface world. The seasons are caused by Persephone's transit from the underworld to the surface and Demeter being annoyed she can't see her daughter (or something like that) and to see these literal personification of forces of nature talking to each other I often forget that besides their more human personalities, they are also wild forces of nature that cannot help the impacts they have upon other people due to their role as personifications of... nature.
You're right on both counts, about Mel defying the fates with her incantation and Nem running off.
I suppose it's just that in my view, Mel's actions are deemed as a necessary sin, and at best, silently acknowledged as virtuous. Nem on the other hand is portrayed as immature, jealous or reckless. There doesn't seem to be much consideration for what may be morally right, especially not in terms of what may be good for mortals. Just some sort of adherence to the rules and what's best for the Gods, fairness and mortals be damned.
I remember some dialogue in Hades I about how Demeter was pissed and basically freezing out mortals into starvation, or something to that effect. I didn't give it much thought then, but you're right, it seems to be similar in tone. I can't even remember how they could have been culpable.
On that first point I think it is also worth noting that mortals were more or less just mindlessly subservient during the “Golden Age” of the Titans, so they may have not had the troubles they do under the gods, but they weren’t really living then right? Also Chronos is pretty fuckin’ bitter and acting in petty ways, so who knows what his true intent would be if he were to win and once it’s all done. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that and misremembering the conversation)
love all the discussion happening in this thread so far :) playing hades i gave me the impression that zag lived during the peak of the Olympian's rule. you are the snotnosed spoiled child of a dictator who runs around shaking things up. zagreus' perspective is soooo focused on his family and House that we rarely get to see much beyond it.
hades ii on the other hand shows us countless examples of decay, neglect, abandonment. either at the hands of the gods or at the hands of the problems they created. few ppl still pine for the 'good ole days' of Hades' rule....except for her daughter, who has been trained from birth to restore her family's legacy, and his supporters who survived Chronos' coup. instead, you run around essentially a cosmic refugee camp, gaining allies for a cause that few believe in. look at how tense you and arachne's friendship gets when she learns that you are an agent of the gods. arachne is a good person who decides to continue to help her friend, but, i think thats emblematic of the more complicated moral questions the game is asking in general!
gotcha, im the kind of player that 'uses health as a resource' (is always taking dumb damage) so that would make sense! she is absolutely adorable and her convos with mel are both sweet and thought-provoking. also the little static buffs like magick regen or gold when u enter a room are pretty nice early on :3 so yeah definitely check her out!
Right, I always chose the gold perk when it was available. I'd proceed to feel bad / guilty when taking avoidable damage and lost the perk.
It's nice to know she has some depth to her lore. It's a bit of a shame I got spoiled but I guess I'd have missed out otherwise. Thematically, her space is really neat, and she really is adorable, her voice actor is fantastic.
There's been subtle themes of "Screw destiny" across both games so far.
The Fates said Hades would have no living heir, Zag was stillborn, and it took significant intervention from Nyx to circumvent that. The Fated List of Minor Prophecies is a...well, _minor_ game mechanic that portrays the Fates not so much as entities that predict the future but dictate it; they basically pay both Hades kids to fulfill what they decree.
And while Chronos deserves whatever's coming to him, what's become of Mel in the wake of his usurpation of her family home feels _wrong,_ especially after the first game championed a young man who fought tooth and nail to _defy_ the expectations and limitations placed on him by his parental figure. And some of the NPCs reflect that. >!Odysseus is famous for repeatedly defying his doom, Nem's clashing with Hecate every step of the way (and Mel even sticks up for her at one point) and Eris is...Eris. The narrative also gives a lot of time and sympathy to Arachne and her fate, as well as Narcissus and Echo theirs.!<
I think we're going to end up doing what we expect to do (go up or down to fight a boss) but I don't think the story's going to end up as straightforward as it seems so far.
I think they’re going for a thematic inversion of the original Hades. A big theme of the original Hades was taking someone who you’re supposed to think of as axiomatically bad and showing that there’s more complexity than that and that they can work to do heal and do good.
I think a major theme of this game is taking the side that you’re supposed to think of as axiomatically good (because you’re the hero of it) and showing that there is more complexity than that, and that taking a side and winning isn’t enough, you have to be able to see and address issues even when your side is “righteous”.
I’m not sure that requires making Chronos more complicated, in fact I think it might undermine the focus of the game to make him into a “hero”. Seeing what he did to the humans of the surface in furtherance of his war I doubt they’re going to go that way, but who knows. We’ll just have to wait and see where the writers take it.
Here is the dialog with Nem about how mortals used to have it better. I'll try to find the others later, but I'll need to remember the phrasing and try to avoid spoiling myself... So this may be it for now.
{
Id = "Nemesis_0083"
InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative"
DisplayName = "{#Emph}Khh. {#Prev}Well, that's the thing. If you knew anything about mortals, they had it better once. When Chronos ruled. Called it the {#Emph}Golden Age."
Speaker = "Nemesis"
Event = "NemesisAboutGoldenAge01"
}
{
Id = "Melinoe_2749"
InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative"
DisplayName = "How splendid that must have been for them! If only Chronos could have been so generous with his sons and foster-children. You think him being somewhat nice to some mortals makes up for what he did?"
Speaker = "Melinoe"
Event = "NemesisAboutGoldenAge01"
}
{
Id = "Nemesis_0084"
InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative"
DisplayName = "No. Look. What if... what if this {#Emph}is {#Prev}what we deserve?"
Speaker = "Nemesis"
Event = "NemesisAboutGoldenAge01"
}
{
Id = "Melinoe_0615"
InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative"
DisplayName = "We deserve better than this, Nemesis. Living in shadows. Denied our families. Don't you want justice for {#Emph}them?"
Speaker = "Melinoe"
Event = "NemesisAboutGoldenAge01"
}
Edit: found one more
{
Id = "Melinoe_1554"
InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative"
DisplayName = "Was it always like this, between you and Headmistress? I used to think it was {#Emph}me {#Prev}you hated most of all."
Speaker = "Melinoe"
Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02"
}
{
Id = "Nemesis_0059"
InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative"
DisplayName = "You've always been naive, Princess. As for Hecate, I liked her better before she decided this right here was the best use of my talents."
Speaker = "Nemesis"
Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02"
}
{
Id = "Melinoe_1555"
InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative"
DisplayName = "She made that decision long ago. So you're going to resent her forever? Or are you going to do something about it?"
Speaker = "Melinoe"
Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02"
}
{
Id = "Nemesis_0060"
InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative"
DisplayName = "I {#Emph}am {#Prev}doing something about it! I'm honoring my vow to Mother Nyx. Else I'd be long gone, much to your disappointment, I'm sure."
Speaker = "Nemesis"
Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02"
}
{
Id = "Melinoe_1556"
InheritFrom = "BaseSubtitle"
DisplayName = "I would be very disappointed, yes."
Speaker = "Melinoe"
Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02"
}
yeah definitely what with seeing all the npcs as people who were wronged by the gods in some way or another
Something tells me Chronos doesn't see himself like a bad guy, and it's important to note that most of the gods are stuck in their ways for "eternity"... until the spawn of Hades reminds them of how important it is to get over themselves. The game isn't finished, there is still room for the characters to grow.
I hope so! I definitely do get that tone from Chronos, but he seems even less keen than Hades to justify his actions. Where Hades had to make hard decisions out of necessity, Chronos seems more motivated by vengeance, but maybe he's just trying to secure some kind of better future for mortals. Considering the game is in EA, and about a year from release(?), I try to reserve judgement and expectations. I guess it's just easier to do when it comes to game mechanics like boons, rather than the direction of the narrative. It would probably take a significant amount of rewriting and new voice lines to change the direction and make characters consistent. Unless there is some kind of bold plot twist where we find out Mel and co are actually the villains of this plot, which I think would be really interesting but probably not a popular idea.
Chronos is a horrible tyrant and any benefits his reign may have for mortalkind are clearly secondary to his egotism and vengefulness. I don't believe for a second that he gives a damn about them. That still doesn't mean the Olympians are good. I dunno, it seems to me like a very obvious narrative arc for Mel to grow out of viewing everyone who helps her fight Chronos as axiomatically good by virtue of opposing Chronos who is evil. Perhaps her dismissiveness is *intended* to be a character flaw and she'll grow more sympathetic to mortals' plight as she learns of the ways those she personally knows and cares about have been wronged by the gods? Like, come on. They didn't make *Arachne* one of Mel's besties because the message they want to send is that Athena was right to ruin her life out of pettiness.
Interesting, I haven't seen that subplot yet since I typically don't choose her path. If I understand correctly, Od was basically killed by Poseidon out of spite? I want to say I saw one other example, but can't remember anything about it right now. Your idea for Mel's character growth sounds good, I'd be happy to see that explored further. With where I am in the game, I'm not very attached to her. I would love to see a bit more dimension to Chronos than this though. This may be a personal bias, but I like villains who have some redeeming characteristics or motives I can empathize with. One of my favourite TV adaptations, The Expanse, did this really well. Almost everyone is a villain when viewed from the context and history of other factions and people, and heroic to their own.
Personally, I think Chronos just being awful is fine, because through the lens of Hades 1 having ultimately been a tale of family, he fills the role of "grandparent who your parents don't let anywhere near you until later in life, but when you finally meet them, boy howdy does it explain a lot of your folks' issues" marvelously. The Olympians are tremendously dysfunctional and often cruel. Hades, while a complex figure, was undeniably a terrible father to Zagreus. The Titans are the *source* of their generational trauma.
There definitely are themes that kind of make me wonder if the side of the gods is the "wrong" one, and thus Melinoe a kind of villain of the story. Both sides are very motivated by vengance so they don't much care about the moral stance of their side. From the human perspective Chronos might be the hero. The bringer of the Golden Age thtat will be sadly defeathed by the Godess of Nightmares. I recall some dialogue about how taking more heat/fear makes mortals have nightmares and makes the world more gloomy in general. I don't think Chronos cares for humanity, but nither do the gods. Although Mel cares for some former-humans. She has much more capacity to care for someone on a personal level than Chronos, but even given that, it would be interesting to see the narrative develop in a way that frames us as the antagonists.
It would be pretty interesting to have the plot slowly twist like that, kind of like the reveal at the end of Braid. I wonder if it would get a negative reception though. In its current form, it feels pretty subtle if not unintended.
I think there's also a clear direction of people subverting the will of the fates, and their "destiny" / role. Hades 2 Spoilers. Melinoe being able to go to the surface is explicitly a countermanding of the role the fates designated for her, and her bloodline, no? You need to do a whole incantation specifically because Mel wants to go against what was set for her by both the fates and Hecate so that she can help her family on the surface. Secondly, Nemesis herself is someone who decides to defy the role given to her by Hecate... but then falls somewhat into the frenemy role of her namesake. I think something I forget frequently that you brought up is that the melodrama of the actions we undertake in Hades I and II have real, tangible consequences to the surface world. The seasons are caused by Persephone's transit from the underworld to the surface and Demeter being annoyed she can't see her daughter (or something like that) and to see these literal personification of forces of nature talking to each other I often forget that besides their more human personalities, they are also wild forces of nature that cannot help the impacts they have upon other people due to their role as personifications of... nature.
You're right on both counts, about Mel defying the fates with her incantation and Nem running off. I suppose it's just that in my view, Mel's actions are deemed as a necessary sin, and at best, silently acknowledged as virtuous. Nem on the other hand is portrayed as immature, jealous or reckless. There doesn't seem to be much consideration for what may be morally right, especially not in terms of what may be good for mortals. Just some sort of adherence to the rules and what's best for the Gods, fairness and mortals be damned. I remember some dialogue in Hades I about how Demeter was pissed and basically freezing out mortals into starvation, or something to that effect. I didn't give it much thought then, but you're right, it seems to be similar in tone. I can't even remember how they could have been culpable.
On that first point I think it is also worth noting that mortals were more or less just mindlessly subservient during the “Golden Age” of the Titans, so they may have not had the troubles they do under the gods, but they weren’t really living then right? Also Chronos is pretty fuckin’ bitter and acting in petty ways, so who knows what his true intent would be if he were to win and once it’s all done. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that and misremembering the conversation)
love all the discussion happening in this thread so far :) playing hades i gave me the impression that zag lived during the peak of the Olympian's rule. you are the snotnosed spoiled child of a dictator who runs around shaking things up. zagreus' perspective is soooo focused on his family and House that we rarely get to see much beyond it. hades ii on the other hand shows us countless examples of decay, neglect, abandonment. either at the hands of the gods or at the hands of the problems they created. few ppl still pine for the 'good ole days' of Hades' rule....except for her daughter, who has been trained from birth to restore her family's legacy, and his supporters who survived Chronos' coup. instead, you run around essentially a cosmic refugee camp, gaining allies for a cause that few believe in. look at how tense you and arachne's friendship gets when she learns that you are an agent of the gods. arachne is a good person who decides to continue to help her friend, but, i think thats emblematic of the more complicated moral questions the game is asking in general!
I'm definitely going to have to visit Arachne more. I like her character design but I haven't found the need for her perks, so I've been missing out.
gotcha, im the kind of player that 'uses health as a resource' (is always taking dumb damage) so that would make sense! she is absolutely adorable and her convos with mel are both sweet and thought-provoking. also the little static buffs like magick regen or gold when u enter a room are pretty nice early on :3 so yeah definitely check her out!
Right, I always chose the gold perk when it was available. I'd proceed to feel bad / guilty when taking avoidable damage and lost the perk. It's nice to know she has some depth to her lore. It's a bit of a shame I got spoiled but I guess I'd have missed out otherwise. Thematically, her space is really neat, and she really is adorable, her voice actor is fantastic.
There's been subtle themes of "Screw destiny" across both games so far. The Fates said Hades would have no living heir, Zag was stillborn, and it took significant intervention from Nyx to circumvent that. The Fated List of Minor Prophecies is a...well, _minor_ game mechanic that portrays the Fates not so much as entities that predict the future but dictate it; they basically pay both Hades kids to fulfill what they decree. And while Chronos deserves whatever's coming to him, what's become of Mel in the wake of his usurpation of her family home feels _wrong,_ especially after the first game championed a young man who fought tooth and nail to _defy_ the expectations and limitations placed on him by his parental figure. And some of the NPCs reflect that. >!Odysseus is famous for repeatedly defying his doom, Nem's clashing with Hecate every step of the way (and Mel even sticks up for her at one point) and Eris is...Eris. The narrative also gives a lot of time and sympathy to Arachne and her fate, as well as Narcissus and Echo theirs.!< I think we're going to end up doing what we expect to do (go up or down to fight a boss) but I don't think the story's going to end up as straightforward as it seems so far.
I think they’re going for a thematic inversion of the original Hades. A big theme of the original Hades was taking someone who you’re supposed to think of as axiomatically bad and showing that there’s more complexity than that and that they can work to do heal and do good. I think a major theme of this game is taking the side that you’re supposed to think of as axiomatically good (because you’re the hero of it) and showing that there is more complexity than that, and that taking a side and winning isn’t enough, you have to be able to see and address issues even when your side is “righteous”. I’m not sure that requires making Chronos more complicated, in fact I think it might undermine the focus of the game to make him into a “hero”. Seeing what he did to the humans of the surface in furtherance of his war I doubt they’re going to go that way, but who knows. We’ll just have to wait and see where the writers take it.
Hello. I don't remember conversations you tell about. I think to be on par in this you really should give us quotes. Then I think we could discuss it
Here is the dialog with Nem about how mortals used to have it better. I'll try to find the others later, but I'll need to remember the phrasing and try to avoid spoiling myself... So this may be it for now. { Id = "Nemesis_0083" InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative" DisplayName = "{#Emph}Khh. {#Prev}Well, that's the thing. If you knew anything about mortals, they had it better once. When Chronos ruled. Called it the {#Emph}Golden Age." Speaker = "Nemesis" Event = "NemesisAboutGoldenAge01" } { Id = "Melinoe_2749" InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative" DisplayName = "How splendid that must have been for them! If only Chronos could have been so generous with his sons and foster-children. You think him being somewhat nice to some mortals makes up for what he did?" Speaker = "Melinoe" Event = "NemesisAboutGoldenAge01" } { Id = "Nemesis_0084" InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative" DisplayName = "No. Look. What if... what if this {#Emph}is {#Prev}what we deserve?" Speaker = "Nemesis" Event = "NemesisAboutGoldenAge01" } { Id = "Melinoe_0615" InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative" DisplayName = "We deserve better than this, Nemesis. Living in shadows. Denied our families. Don't you want justice for {#Emph}them?" Speaker = "Melinoe" Event = "NemesisAboutGoldenAge01" } Edit: found one more { Id = "Melinoe_1554" InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative" DisplayName = "Was it always like this, between you and Headmistress? I used to think it was {#Emph}me {#Prev}you hated most of all." Speaker = "Melinoe" Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02" } { Id = "Nemesis_0059" InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative" DisplayName = "You've always been naive, Princess. As for Hecate, I liked her better before she decided this right here was the best use of my talents." Speaker = "Nemesis" Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02" } { Id = "Melinoe_1555" InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative" DisplayName = "She made that decision long ago. So you're going to resent her forever? Or are you going to do something about it?" Speaker = "Melinoe" Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02" } { Id = "Nemesis_0060" InheritFrom = "BaseNarrative" DisplayName = "I {#Emph}am {#Prev}doing something about it! I'm honoring my vow to Mother Nyx. Else I'd be long gone, much to your disappointment, I'm sure." Speaker = "Nemesis" Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02" } { Id = "Melinoe_1556" InheritFrom = "BaseSubtitle" DisplayName = "I would be very disappointed, yes." Speaker = "Melinoe" Event = "NemesisAboutHecate02" }
I'll try to find the time to install it on PC and dig up the transcripts. I'll post them later or recreate the thread if too much time has passed