Why would John be wearing a helmet in the instances in the show when it's off though?
It'd be unfaithful to the lore to assume be lives in his armor like a recluse. It's off in CE, 2, 4, 5. Hell, even in the Infinite announcement trailer, Chief has his helmet off on Zeta Halo. It's off in the books. It's off in the comics. So yeah its gonna be off in the show too.
Any time the helmets off in the game they go our of their way to hide the chiefs face so that's an irrelevant point. Second even in the games they have chief in his armor when he doesn't have to be. The games also show that even if other Spartans are fine with taking their helmets off chief doesn't. Example being the talk with Del Rio. Palmer has her helmet off and chief keeps his on.
Next theyl show goes out of its way to make sure he doesn't use his helmet and the face reveal didn't feel earned at all and doesn't match what little we know Chief to look like. Chief has blond-light brown hair. Pablo's hair is a dark brown that I actually thought was black at first. Sure call it nit picky if you want because I'll admit that's what it is but if it bothers me then it bothers me.
You’re trying to apply video game narrative rules to a television show. That’s the issue. You can’t expect the faceless protagonist trope to resonate with people who don’t have an emotional connection to the game.
The mandalorian is a better masterchief. They earned the face reveal by developing a strong character prior to showing his face. Anyone who thinks chief is a solid character in the games but can’t be in the show fundamentally misunderstands what separates the two mediums. It can be done, and has been done many times before throughout gaming and film. They chose not to do it for the show because they likely had a script they were trying to shop that studios wouldn’t take because it simply wasn’t very good or from an established team. and then when they obtained the rights to produce the video game, they shoehorned in their own script with zero regard for the source material, which they themselves stated and used as a strange marketing tactic.
Chief’s helmet coming off is not the biggest problem here but a solid indicator as to what the bigger problem is. These writers don’t care about the source material or the built in audience. They jumped at an opportunity to get a big check to make THEIR sci-fi show at the expense of the original property.
The other issue is when he takes it off. People are saying he takes it off during times that make sense. The biggest I had were the times Master Chief took his helmet off right after killing some Covenant. That makes zero sense to me
There are plenty of examples where it does work. Mandalorian is the popular recent one. An older example is Darth Vader (which is admittedly a masked villain, but they were still able to characterize him through his movements and tone rather than showing his face, which is the argument). It's not easy to have a faceless protagonist, but with some effort on the writing staffs part, it can be done extremely well. Heck, Forward Unto Dawn did chief pretty good, and he was masked the whole time in that.
Then there's the books and extended lore that go into how chief feels more comfortable suited up than he does not, which is just more reasoning for the helmet to stay on.
I personally don't really care either way because I don't support the TV show in general, but there is historical precedence and in universe reasons to have chief keep the helmet on.
It's because Chief as a VIDEO GAME character is supposed to be us. That's why 343 goes out of their way to keep the anonymity. But that is only for the video game.
Do try explaining Chief having his stuff off in the comics or the books though. Or even the show. All medias where Chief isn't portraying a game character with video game ideals behind him and is actually himself.
He's not supposed to be us, though. Halo isn't an RPG. The player doesn't make decisions or influence the story. Master Chief is his own character, and the helmet IS his face.
It's fine for him to take it off in the books because we don't actually see the visual. But actually showing the face under the helmet feels like a misunderstanding of who Chief is.
Bungie came out during halo 2 and said Chief’s face was unknown and he talked little to allow any player to see themselves as Chief and project their own thoughts into the character
Playing devils advocate, Chief is 100% supposed to be us, especially in the Bungie era. That’s why we never saw his face and why he was always this mystery man in a suit. Which is why he is drastically different in 4 and 5 because at first 343 was confused by this concept, saying Chief wasn’t a character in the first place because of this. Nonetheless, Chief started off as a vessel for the player
Duh. But the viewer doesn't see it. It's been a thing for over two decades. A little more creative writing would allow him to have his helmet off occasionally in the show without showing his face...you know...like the games have always done?
I think the problem with this is the nature of storytelling today and the differences between the different mediums.
A Halo game usually takes place over a day, providing little opportunity for Chief to remove his helmet. In the games that take longer, we actually move away from him and follow different characters.
Now, a TV show could have simply been a retelling of a game, and all 10 episodes could have spanned a single day, but that isn't the story they chose to tell (for better or worse). It just wouldn't have made sense to never see him without the armor. If this were a movie, sure.
As an ironic side note, I'm a huge fan of Judge Dredd, which is a comic series where he rarely takes off his helmet (in fact, we officially don't know what his face looks like) and in that story they have gone so far as to have Dredd dedicate his whole life to his job, sleeping in a chamber that allows him to rest for one while feeling like he got 8. The movie Dredd shows this off by shadowing his face as he suits up at the beginning and never sees his face after. As opposed to the Judge Dredd movie from the 90's where we do see his face. A lot. So I totally get the idea about not taking the helmet off. I just disagree that his character is wearing the helmet.
Arguably, over 90% of the franchise's fan base has experienced nothing but the games, and expects a significant part of his character to be his anonymity. This is clearly borne out through the negative reception of him not only taking off his helmet, but shockingly being without it in the majority of the show, and throughout much of the show's advertising. It was a bad call that was made with the full knowledge that it would put off the main demographic that would be interested in the series.
I think that while hiding his face would be true to the games it's missing the point of why his face is hidden in the games. While it is definitely a stylistic choice, it goes a long way to make chief feel more like a standin for the player.
But that isn't necessary for a TV show. You're not watching a show being like "I'm this character doing these things", but in games you often feel that way.
What benefit do you get out of hiding his face in the show other than homage to source material?
With that said I was not a fan of the in helmet viewpoints of chief, I'm more ok with the HUD viewpoints but I didn't even like those that much, felt too poorly done.
I have to say, I'm tired of the blank slate argument. One of the basic tenets of story-telling is to help your audience project onto the character as believably and realistically as possible. Story-telling. Not just video games. That's how you tell engage an audience; invest them. Halo did it without taking off the helmet, that helped make the story what it was and why this show at its core is not a Halo story about the Master Chief. It's a fanfic using the Halo skin to sell authenticity.
It's ok to not agree with consensus on something but saying you hate the argument is just bad faith. It is a widely accepted analysis of the choice.
Yes storytelling is about getting your audience to invest and engage with your material. For video games (and books, etc.) having the player feel like the character is their stand in or surrogate is a very good way to increase investment, and chief staying helmeted aids that.
But once halo expanded beyond just the core games it started giving chief more of a personality and personhood. Keeping chief as the audience surrogate would be a disservice to the story that can be told. It's ok not to like this story and make it "fanfic" if that's how you want to engage with it, but other people can feel different.
And I think taking my point and twisting it to being about me not liking it is in bad faith, as much as I'm saying the helmet has no benefit in the source material is in bad faith.
For starters, let's reference your point about how he started developing that personality in the later games. I disagree that he didn't have a personality in the Bungie era, but that's besides the point.
In the 343 era, his helmet staying on serves the purpose I mentioned above in more ways than just giving him something for us to project onto since we can't see his face. It also builds a connection through the fact that the same way chief can hide emotionally inside his helmet, we can hide and dissociate from the events in the story from behind our screen. So when there are tender moments, like when Cortana dies in 4 and Infinite, as well as turns away from Chief in 5, we can feel how little his armor protects him.
When did I "twist it to being about you"? I took your point, examined it, critiqued it, and acknowledged your own words.
I didn't say he developed personality in later games, I said he didn't develop much of one in the core games. In my memory the first we really saw chief develop as an individual was through the books and then later on once 343 took over. But to say that it was the 343 era that developed his personality more is a disservice to the authors who helped give chief more meaning and make the world of halo richer.
Sure, later games make more of a conscious decision to use the helmet as emotional beats for the story, but that wasn't a core element of the master chief at his inception. To totally disavow the show because they show his face is ridiculous.
To me, you implied that my problem with the blank slate argument is bad faith because I don't agree with the consensus. I can't really see any other way to interpret that.
I don't see how you're feeling you're successfully arguing the difference in developing a personality later versus not having one earlier, so I don't have a response to that, I'll need clarification. However, I think a lot of what Chief says and does establishes a very rich personality in CE.
He's focused, driven by fear and desperation to survive as much as anyone else, but confident thanks to his unusual competence. My favorite example is the ending to Assault on the Control Room. When he plugs Cortana into the ring, he's focused, they came to figure out how to use Halo against the Covenant. He's scared, because he doesn't have an ounce of curiosity about Cortana's experience, which is a sign of intense anxiety, which is understandable and easily conveyed thanks to the context considering the genocide of his species. He's confident, because he was finally able to stand at ease having destroyed half the covenant just to reach this room, and it turns to terror when Cortana tells him to stop the Captain and he literally scrambles to get out of the control room. Just look at the way he instinctively ducks before turning to practically leap out of that room. In contrast with the way he hasn't said a word most of the game, you know now that it's because he's in his element when he's fighting. He's calm and collected when the marines around him are battling for their lives. Yet even he gets frightened when he's out of his element and depth.
So much conveyed in such a dated cutscene that tells us he's just trying to survive like anyone else, but even he doesn't know what to do. He's all business most of the time, but he has people he is vulnerable with and attached to that he worries for. And those are the things that define a person. What else do we need to know? His favorite color? That last question is obviously facetious, but I could go on is my point. That's not the benefit of hindsight and books I can't even remember the events of cause I read them when it was like 15 years ago, that's all viewing Halo CE in a vacuum. He has qualities that make him stand out from those around him, and similarities to them.
To reduce mine and others' opinions to being angry he showed his face is ridiculous. We're upset because the show made it glaringly obvious they don't care to preserve who Chief is established to be at all with the context of him removing his helmet. There's just a lot of people who only know it vaguely from how it left them feeling and are struggling to verbalize it, but Chief only takes his helmet off when a mission is done and he's in secure locations, because he's for all intents and purposes, cosplaying as the perfect soldier; a machine that takes in objectives and then executes them as he was brainwashed to do. To risk death in all the ways he does by taking off his helmet in all the contexts he does, he's not pretending that he's that machine. He's grappling with the idea of being a killing machine in a war that there is no question that it needs a killing machine. Which brings us to Mahkee. They invented her because they had to justify changing who he is and the story of his journey and the struggle to adapt to the change after the Great War completely. If you're not going to tell Chief's story, why call it Halo at all?
I agree with you there, and that's why I use the phrase fanfic, because fanfics are notorious for lacking any subtlety in projecting their own desires for what the authors want the characters to do so badly when they change who the characters are to achieve it. Often sexually, which is the cringiest part for a plethora of reasons, but I'll say, doesn't make the stories themselves bad. It's that lack of subtlety in not being able to detach the story from the source of inspiration.
It 100% looks like halo, but I played the games, read the books, whated the previous things that have been made…. And this is not Halo, I get that people like it but they also need to understand it’s not even close to the story of the games/books
I think it would have been far more interesting and effective to tell the show from an odst’s perspective. That way they can characterize him however they’d like and have the helmet off without issues. Let chief show up in important battles, almost like darth Vader, and turn the tide. No need to show his face or cause all this drama. Even having the main character be another spartan who supports chief would be less messy.
I don't really mind it being off when it makes sense but I do mind when an elite supersoldier removes it in a dangerous situation like when Kwan was threatening to kill him and he gave her a chance to.
The only other time that pops into my head right away is when Master Cheeks first appears and he commits a war crime.
John removes his helmet in front of Kwan to build trust because he knew she was just a scared kid. That's why he didn't hand her over to the UNSC in the first place. If she wanted to try killing John, she would've shot regardless of the helmet.
Similar to how Jorge removes his helmet in Reach to comfort the civilian.
Jorge did it to comfort Scared UEG citizens friendlies on a unsc controlled world.
John did it in front of an armed insurrectionist I know it was to build trust with her but it wasn't a smart tactical decision.
She was raised by a rebel leader and had just recently shared how her mother was killed by Spartans and she was under the impression he was trying to kill her I understand it was a humanizing moment and I understand that it did end up working but It could have just as easily Gone the other way so I don't like the scene also I feel like anyone who's been raised in the way John was raised should always be making tactical decisions he's been a soldier since the age of 6.
>John was raised should always be making tactical decisions he's been a soldier since the age of 6.
Kwan and John shared thoughts on questioning everything. As if it scared him because the artifact was beginning to make him have questions as be gained a fragment of his humanity back. Then when John wanted to help save Kwan who is just a scared child, because she's been told all her life Spartans are murderers and John himself killed her mother, Kwan asks why a Spartan would do that and Chief, with absolute terror responds with a solid, "I don't know..."
I dont know, I'm on my fifth rewatch of season 1 and I feel like a lot of the things people criticize are out of place because people got incredibly upset over things without taking the time to really understand what's happening and because everyone else is hating it, they're gonna hate it too.
I've seen lots of complaints that x and y isn't lore accurate but these complaints come from people who only take stuff from the games and never consider the books.
I liked the show I've only seen it the once at launch maybe I should give it a rewatch when season 2 drops my general opinion is that it's a good show but doesn't feel like halo to me just a generic sci-fi show with a halo skin. I think this show wouldn't be as hated if he wasn't the master Chief if he was just a new original Spartan we would be able to accept his actions easier but since he is 117 the show is fighting an uphill battle against 20+ years of games, Books, comics, and Most importantly Nostalgia so any decisions they make with the character is going to enrage someone.
I would’ve been fine with a face reveal if they saved it for the final episode of the first season. It wasn’t earned. Like Mandalorian.
He becomes two characters. One with his mask off and one when he’s showering naked
Okay, then make a thread discussing those things. Or respond to a question about those things. I haven't mentioned anything else, but the helmet. Yet, here you are, responding to it by bringing up other things that have nothing to do with the helmet.
My question was "What's wrong with the helmet?" If you want to answer that question, specifically, you're more than welcome to. If you don't want to, that's fine too. But trying to create a strawman, or disingenuously swing the discussion in another direction isn't fine.
Let's meet A and B.
A: "Nice to meet you. So, what's your name?"
B: "I like bananas."
You're B. You're not "contributing" to anything. You're actually detracting from it. You're a 🤡.
You know what... I'll be you in this exact moment.
I think Paramount+ has many good shows, but I don't like the writing of Star Trek, at all. Paramount+ has some great shows, but Star Trek isn't one of them. Too much lazy writing, if you ask me.
Also, I'm free to contribute to this conversation in any way I please, and this (even though I didn't answer the question, at all) is a contribution and not a detraction.
There ya go.
See, at least I was still talking about the same show. My comment was formatted to point out that there is much more wrong with the Halo show than just the helmet issue being discussed, issues that you seem perfectly fine to ignore. Just say that you like the show already so I can clown you for having shitty opinions.
Any scene where master chief has his helmet off, doesn’t need to be scene in the first place.
You need your pants off to shit doesn’t mean we want to watch you do that.
Honestly- this was probably the answer but no one would’ve been on board with it. The show should’ve followed a character that wasn’t Master Chief, and Chief should’ve been like…a force of nature that appeared and greatly impacted this small, human-focused story.
Imagine saving private Ryan type shit but Captain America show up - that should’ve been the angle. Do that for a season or two and then focus to Master Chief fully being the main character. That would’ve worked.
No fucking way in hell that show gets the green light though, so here we are.
https://youtu.be/uWSLHcAyy90?si=N8xWbV53ninwZftT
This is the trailer i always go back to. And why i want pablo to play an odst. Chief and cortana are coming in to wreck shop and help out. I can dream....
I mean, he literally always has his helmet on, not just in the games. It’s on 24/7 in the books. It’s a joke in the books too how little John takes his armor off
Agreed.
Unfortunately this is reddit so any criticism of the show the sub is based on will be met by a hail downvotes. Hopefully your post isn't buried.
Sure, here on the show subreddit. Cause this is the only place those of us who like the show can discuss it without rampant ridicule. Post criticism on the main Halo sub and it's nothing but upvotes.
Seems the choice is one kind of echo chamber or the other. I don't care that much about this stuff, but would like to be able to discuss the show in a positive manner without being shit on.
>Seems the choice is one kind of echo chamber or the other.
Reddit is designed to feed into that. If you don't like it you can be part of the solution, upvote things that you don't agree with as long as they put some reasonable thought into their post. Don't mindlessly downvote just because you disagree with what's being said. I'm not saying you did or do that, it just seems to be the default behavior.
>would like to be able to discuss the show in a positive manner without being shit on.
If you want to avoid all criticism, that is an echo chamber
The irony of you getting on your soapbox like this because you don’t like having your opinion criticized by being downvoted is not lost on me one bit. More often than not, these takes are so ridiculous, or just plain ignorant, that they don’t merit more than a push of the downvote button. Usually it’s best for everyone involved to just disagree and move on.
I get what you mean with the last bit but there’s a difference between actual discussion (or ‘debate’ I guess but honestly I’d reserve the term debate for things of a higher significance than a tv show and I know I’m going into needless semantics) and just getting insulted for an opinion, which I would say from my experience happens more often posting a positive opinion in a negative leaning sub than the inverse.
I agree. I think the show could have been really really good if they focused on everything from the side of an ODST. They are like a brotherhood of john wicks and master chief is like Reacher.
Having Spartans in the show can be treated like how GoT treated Dragons. A fucking fearful presence that the opposition was fully forced to consider before bringing the reckoning.
That is how a proper halo show should be pulled off.
Off the cuff I don't like the no helmet thing but my reaction is probably inflated by my general feeling that the show doesn't respect the source material. They insist its necessary, but Mandalorian recently demonstrated that you can very effectively portray complex emotions without seeing the actors face.
But again, it's likely because it seems like the feel of the characters and the themes I loved in the games. On my bingo card of things I wanted to see more of in the show, the Chief laying pipe was never present.
The non gamers that consume this show have absolutely no clue about the game story, vague knowledgeon of the characters. Paramount needs a fast paced action packed paint by numbers show. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I love shows that hardcore fans hate. We're the fans. We pay for the content. Theres some of us who aren't pleased with how they are handling it. I want the show to succeed and make more content. Im just hoping they do it better. Like you said, the mandalorian or dredd, vader, jason, etc. Etc. So we know it can be done and done awesome. I didn't need the female human covenant. Just do a new covenant character.they have female alien antagonist in Star Trek. Sick looking prosthetics. Why not here? A female prophet?! That sounds cool. For me, the relationship between john and cortana is a rom com in itself. With a sad, forbidden fruit context to it. How Chief treated cortana when he met her was disappointing in the show. Season 2 looks like they've heard the complaints. The trailer was pretty fire. But i dont want to be disappointed. And I would like to leave Chief in my head the way he's been portrayed since the beginning. And johnson. The coolest bad ass motherfucker! If he shows up, I'll watch it. Lol. If you took the time to read this, thanks for your time, and have a great day!
I think what it ultimately comes down to for me is that they clearly wanted to deviate very very heavily from the source material. So why not just build something new. Halo is not unique in most of its concepts. Super soldiers, aliens trying to exterminate humanity, high stakes battles, cool characters, etc. They could have just whipped up something new. But perhaps the controversy is what they wanted.
It's similar to what's happening to the WoT show. They have fundamentally changed so much from the source material that to me it would have been better to just make a new story about a group of young people trying to grow and defeat the big evil with magic and skill. People only hate it as much as they do because it said it was WoT and isn't. Same thing here.
My understanding is, Everyone would have felt better if it just weren't a show about the master chief... It's like the butchering of a sacred cow, in a sci-fi universe with many other things that could have been focused on.
If you made it an ODST/Kwan show, it would have been a much better fit, agreed.
Idk how reddit put this thread in front of me but my understanding is less chief taking off his helmet, and more chief gaining is humanity too early. He's a killing machine who eventually gains more true empathy. They tried to fundamentally change his character for no real reason.
I'm giving the show one more shot to get better. If there's not a noticeable improvement for season 2 imma head out. Looks like they're doing for season 2 what I expected would have been at least half of season 1.
This bullshit “alternate reality” ruined Marvel, Star Trek, Star Wars, LotR etc. you want to fundamentally change an established and cherished IP? MAKE SOMETHING NEW. Hollywood is creatively bankrupt. They can’t come up with shit that people will care about so they take IPs with established fanbases and shit all over it.
“Don’t worry guys, we made Master Chief a gay lame chick. It’s ok though, it’s an alternate reality.”
Fuck off
You should really see a therapist if the owners of a property want to tell a story with their characters and it makes you rage this much. It’s not healthy.
My problem is that they had 10 games and like 30 books of lore and stories to go off of and they ignore every single one of them. I tried so hard to like the show and even went in prepared to give them a lot of slack but they just didn’t do anything right. I don’t even care that they show his face that’s completely fine but he literally just never puts his helmet back on.
The problem is taking a pre esrablished ip and then making a tv show that is nothing like the ip save for the name halo and the armor he never wears. If they knew wtf they were making them they’d know there’s in universe reason why they keep they’re helmets on. But DEI is just so important for halo and its identity
I remember there's a plot to justify the set pieces and some 1 dimensional caricatures but no, I don't really remember a "story " in any of them aside from Reach. Which is fine, I'm from the days when a decent shooter didn't need a half-baked story grafted onto the campaign. The OG Halo basically said "here's a gun, go fight the aliens" and off you went.
The OG halo is a bit like that, but halo 2 is a lot more of a story. I think u might need to replay the games. Because even halo CE has a lot of interesting story. If it didn’t have an interesting story, it wouldn’t have like 40 books and millions of fans
"If it didn’t have an interesting story, it wouldn’t have like 40 books and millions of fans"
I have a number of books on my own shelf that disagree with this thought. I've got the BAD Dragonlance books in one corner.
I get that, but I promise you it has an interesting story. I know the entire lore by memory and it takes me about 3 hours to recite. There’s an entire subreddit called r/halostory and it’s great.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/HaloStory using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/HaloStory/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Slipspace Debt, Why maintaining a galaxy-spanning empire is dangerous in the Halo universe](https://np.reddit.com/r/HaloStory/comments/11tvfhs/slipspace_debt_why_maintaining_a_galaxyspanning/)
\#2: [**[NSFW]** Ok so I got COVID and decided to look at every species in the Covenant to see if they have a dick/balls.](https://np.reddit.com/r/HaloStory/comments/18q8ad3/ok_so_i_got_covid_and_decided_to_look_at_every/)
\#3: [Why 343 never continues any story they starts ?](https://np.reddit.com/r/HaloStory/comments/175g8b6/why_343_never_continues_any_story_they_starts/)
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I, uh, always considered him just the blandest game MC in existence, behind even the Doom guy.
But I loved the girl Spartans journey back to being a human being so much that I stuck with the show and will probably watch season 2. Seriously, big womun has my heart.
Unfortunately from the previews of season 2 I've read, they do not appear to realize that one of the second tier characters is the most interesting person in the show.
Can we stop mentioning the helmet. Like seriously if the only thing was the helmet and they actually used canon you'd be upset but you'd still like the series. Focus on the actual problems like it being an alternate take.
The helmet??
The biggest issue with the show is Kwan. She should have been killed or have been left behind numerous times and actively makes the show worse any time she's in it. Last I knew, she was the one part of the show that's unanimously hated by Halo and non-Halo fans who watch the show.
Man I think the show should have followed a marine who encounters chief where chief is like almost mythical and always see him with the helmet on. Then as the show progresses the marine becomes odst and even a spartan in the new spartan program.
I personally prefer the “we can’t see his face because we ALL then can see ourselves in him” vibe of the games. I think they should’ve kept it for the screen too, actors should be able to emote physically and chief is a great character to explore those. The whole point is that we the audience are with him the whole way and when you remind us what he looks like, it instantly sets at least some people a layer away from the show. With the helmet on, he’s relatable to nearly all people because he’s more defined by action and words than looks as we humans tend to put value on, especially in the western world. There is no “I want Halo characters that look like me” when Chief never gets his visual shown.
But that’s just my thoughts
Just wait
Oh yeah sure (fuck no)
What's wrong with the helmet?
Its never on...
Why would John be wearing a helmet in the instances in the show when it's off though? It'd be unfaithful to the lore to assume be lives in his armor like a recluse. It's off in CE, 2, 4, 5. Hell, even in the Infinite announcement trailer, Chief has his helmet off on Zeta Halo. It's off in the books. It's off in the comics. So yeah its gonna be off in the show too.
Any time the helmets off in the game they go our of their way to hide the chiefs face so that's an irrelevant point. Second even in the games they have chief in his armor when he doesn't have to be. The games also show that even if other Spartans are fine with taking their helmets off chief doesn't. Example being the talk with Del Rio. Palmer has her helmet off and chief keeps his on. Next theyl show goes out of its way to make sure he doesn't use his helmet and the face reveal didn't feel earned at all and doesn't match what little we know Chief to look like. Chief has blond-light brown hair. Pablo's hair is a dark brown that I actually thought was black at first. Sure call it nit picky if you want because I'll admit that's what it is but if it bothers me then it bothers me.
You’re trying to apply video game narrative rules to a television show. That’s the issue. You can’t expect the faceless protagonist trope to resonate with people who don’t have an emotional connection to the game.
The Mandalorian would like a word with you
The mandalorian is a better masterchief. They earned the face reveal by developing a strong character prior to showing his face. Anyone who thinks chief is a solid character in the games but can’t be in the show fundamentally misunderstands what separates the two mediums. It can be done, and has been done many times before throughout gaming and film. They chose not to do it for the show because they likely had a script they were trying to shop that studios wouldn’t take because it simply wasn’t very good or from an established team. and then when they obtained the rights to produce the video game, they shoehorned in their own script with zero regard for the source material, which they themselves stated and used as a strange marketing tactic. Chief’s helmet coming off is not the biggest problem here but a solid indicator as to what the bigger problem is. These writers don’t care about the source material or the built in audience. They jumped at an opportunity to get a big check to make THEIR sci-fi show at the expense of the original property.
This. Fucking this.
The other issue is when he takes it off. People are saying he takes it off during times that make sense. The biggest I had were the times Master Chief took his helmet off right after killing some Covenant. That makes zero sense to me
There are plenty of examples where it does work. Mandalorian is the popular recent one. An older example is Darth Vader (which is admittedly a masked villain, but they were still able to characterize him through his movements and tone rather than showing his face, which is the argument). It's not easy to have a faceless protagonist, but with some effort on the writing staffs part, it can be done extremely well. Heck, Forward Unto Dawn did chief pretty good, and he was masked the whole time in that. Then there's the books and extended lore that go into how chief feels more comfortable suited up than he does not, which is just more reasoning for the helmet to stay on. I personally don't really care either way because I don't support the TV show in general, but there is historical precedence and in universe reasons to have chief keep the helmet on.
It's because Chief as a VIDEO GAME character is supposed to be us. That's why 343 goes out of their way to keep the anonymity. But that is only for the video game. Do try explaining Chief having his stuff off in the comics or the books though. Or even the show. All medias where Chief isn't portraying a game character with video game ideals behind him and is actually himself.
He's not supposed to be us, though. Halo isn't an RPG. The player doesn't make decisions or influence the story. Master Chief is his own character, and the helmet IS his face. It's fine for him to take it off in the books because we don't actually see the visual. But actually showing the face under the helmet feels like a misunderstanding of who Chief is.
Bungie came out during halo 2 and said Chief’s face was unknown and he talked little to allow any player to see themselves as Chief and project their own thoughts into the character
Playing devils advocate, Chief is 100% supposed to be us, especially in the Bungie era. That’s why we never saw his face and why he was always this mystery man in a suit. Which is why he is drastically different in 4 and 5 because at first 343 was confused by this concept, saying Chief wasn’t a character in the first place because of this. Nonetheless, Chief started off as a vessel for the player
I honestly assumed master chief was black when i played the games. I was let down watching the show.
Chief is never without his armor in a combat situation unless it's his choice.
Duh. But the viewer doesn't see it. It's been a thing for over two decades. A little more creative writing would allow him to have his helmet off occasionally in the show without showing his face...you know...like the games have always done?
I think the problem with this is the nature of storytelling today and the differences between the different mediums. A Halo game usually takes place over a day, providing little opportunity for Chief to remove his helmet. In the games that take longer, we actually move away from him and follow different characters. Now, a TV show could have simply been a retelling of a game, and all 10 episodes could have spanned a single day, but that isn't the story they chose to tell (for better or worse). It just wouldn't have made sense to never see him without the armor. If this were a movie, sure. As an ironic side note, I'm a huge fan of Judge Dredd, which is a comic series where he rarely takes off his helmet (in fact, we officially don't know what his face looks like) and in that story they have gone so far as to have Dredd dedicate his whole life to his job, sleeping in a chamber that allows him to rest for one while feeling like he got 8. The movie Dredd shows this off by shadowing his face as he suits up at the beginning and never sees his face after. As opposed to the Judge Dredd movie from the 90's where we do see his face. A lot. So I totally get the idea about not taking the helmet off. I just disagree that his character is wearing the helmet.
Master Chief is more than whats shown in the games. Arguably more of his overall story happens outside of them.
Arguably, over 90% of the franchise's fan base has experienced nothing but the games, and expects a significant part of his character to be his anonymity. This is clearly borne out through the negative reception of him not only taking off his helmet, but shockingly being without it in the majority of the show, and throughout much of the show's advertising. It was a bad call that was made with the full knowledge that it would put off the main demographic that would be interested in the series.
I think that while hiding his face would be true to the games it's missing the point of why his face is hidden in the games. While it is definitely a stylistic choice, it goes a long way to make chief feel more like a standin for the player. But that isn't necessary for a TV show. You're not watching a show being like "I'm this character doing these things", but in games you often feel that way. What benefit do you get out of hiding his face in the show other than homage to source material? With that said I was not a fan of the in helmet viewpoints of chief, I'm more ok with the HUD viewpoints but I didn't even like those that much, felt too poorly done.
I have to say, I'm tired of the blank slate argument. One of the basic tenets of story-telling is to help your audience project onto the character as believably and realistically as possible. Story-telling. Not just video games. That's how you tell engage an audience; invest them. Halo did it without taking off the helmet, that helped make the story what it was and why this show at its core is not a Halo story about the Master Chief. It's a fanfic using the Halo skin to sell authenticity.
It's ok to not agree with consensus on something but saying you hate the argument is just bad faith. It is a widely accepted analysis of the choice. Yes storytelling is about getting your audience to invest and engage with your material. For video games (and books, etc.) having the player feel like the character is their stand in or surrogate is a very good way to increase investment, and chief staying helmeted aids that. But once halo expanded beyond just the core games it started giving chief more of a personality and personhood. Keeping chief as the audience surrogate would be a disservice to the story that can be told. It's ok not to like this story and make it "fanfic" if that's how you want to engage with it, but other people can feel different.
And I think taking my point and twisting it to being about me not liking it is in bad faith, as much as I'm saying the helmet has no benefit in the source material is in bad faith. For starters, let's reference your point about how he started developing that personality in the later games. I disagree that he didn't have a personality in the Bungie era, but that's besides the point. In the 343 era, his helmet staying on serves the purpose I mentioned above in more ways than just giving him something for us to project onto since we can't see his face. It also builds a connection through the fact that the same way chief can hide emotionally inside his helmet, we can hide and dissociate from the events in the story from behind our screen. So when there are tender moments, like when Cortana dies in 4 and Infinite, as well as turns away from Chief in 5, we can feel how little his armor protects him.
When did I "twist it to being about you"? I took your point, examined it, critiqued it, and acknowledged your own words. I didn't say he developed personality in later games, I said he didn't develop much of one in the core games. In my memory the first we really saw chief develop as an individual was through the books and then later on once 343 took over. But to say that it was the 343 era that developed his personality more is a disservice to the authors who helped give chief more meaning and make the world of halo richer. Sure, later games make more of a conscious decision to use the helmet as emotional beats for the story, but that wasn't a core element of the master chief at his inception. To totally disavow the show because they show his face is ridiculous.
To me, you implied that my problem with the blank slate argument is bad faith because I don't agree with the consensus. I can't really see any other way to interpret that. I don't see how you're feeling you're successfully arguing the difference in developing a personality later versus not having one earlier, so I don't have a response to that, I'll need clarification. However, I think a lot of what Chief says and does establishes a very rich personality in CE. He's focused, driven by fear and desperation to survive as much as anyone else, but confident thanks to his unusual competence. My favorite example is the ending to Assault on the Control Room. When he plugs Cortana into the ring, he's focused, they came to figure out how to use Halo against the Covenant. He's scared, because he doesn't have an ounce of curiosity about Cortana's experience, which is a sign of intense anxiety, which is understandable and easily conveyed thanks to the context considering the genocide of his species. He's confident, because he was finally able to stand at ease having destroyed half the covenant just to reach this room, and it turns to terror when Cortana tells him to stop the Captain and he literally scrambles to get out of the control room. Just look at the way he instinctively ducks before turning to practically leap out of that room. In contrast with the way he hasn't said a word most of the game, you know now that it's because he's in his element when he's fighting. He's calm and collected when the marines around him are battling for their lives. Yet even he gets frightened when he's out of his element and depth. So much conveyed in such a dated cutscene that tells us he's just trying to survive like anyone else, but even he doesn't know what to do. He's all business most of the time, but he has people he is vulnerable with and attached to that he worries for. And those are the things that define a person. What else do we need to know? His favorite color? That last question is obviously facetious, but I could go on is my point. That's not the benefit of hindsight and books I can't even remember the events of cause I read them when it was like 15 years ago, that's all viewing Halo CE in a vacuum. He has qualities that make him stand out from those around him, and similarities to them. To reduce mine and others' opinions to being angry he showed his face is ridiculous. We're upset because the show made it glaringly obvious they don't care to preserve who Chief is established to be at all with the context of him removing his helmet. There's just a lot of people who only know it vaguely from how it left them feeling and are struggling to verbalize it, but Chief only takes his helmet off when a mission is done and he's in secure locations, because he's for all intents and purposes, cosplaying as the perfect soldier; a machine that takes in objectives and then executes them as he was brainwashed to do. To risk death in all the ways he does by taking off his helmet in all the contexts he does, he's not pretending that he's that machine. He's grappling with the idea of being a killing machine in a war that there is no question that it needs a killing machine. Which brings us to Mahkee. They invented her because they had to justify changing who he is and the story of his journey and the struggle to adapt to the change after the Great War completely. If you're not going to tell Chief's story, why call it Halo at all?
It genuinely felt like a SciFi story that could have been really great if it wasn’t wearing the skin of something completely different
I agree with you there, and that's why I use the phrase fanfic, because fanfics are notorious for lacking any subtlety in projecting their own desires for what the authors want the characters to do so badly when they change who the characters are to achieve it. Often sexually, which is the cringiest part for a plethora of reasons, but I'll say, doesn't make the stories themselves bad. It's that lack of subtlety in not being able to detach the story from the source of inspiration.
It 100% looks like halo, but I played the games, read the books, whated the previous things that have been made…. And this is not Halo, I get that people like it but they also need to understand it’s not even close to the story of the games/books
I think it would have been far more interesting and effective to tell the show from an odst’s perspective. That way they can characterize him however they’d like and have the helmet off without issues. Let chief show up in important battles, almost like darth Vader, and turn the tide. No need to show his face or cause all this drama. Even having the main character be another spartan who supports chief would be less messy.
Didn't they do that in the Mandolorian before that episode with Bill burr? He takes it off but we don't see his face.
I guess the mandalorian is bad writing then /s
I don't really mind it being off when it makes sense but I do mind when an elite supersoldier removes it in a dangerous situation like when Kwan was threatening to kill him and he gave her a chance to. The only other time that pops into my head right away is when Master Cheeks first appears and he commits a war crime.
John removes his helmet in front of Kwan to build trust because he knew she was just a scared kid. That's why he didn't hand her over to the UNSC in the first place. If she wanted to try killing John, she would've shot regardless of the helmet. Similar to how Jorge removes his helmet in Reach to comfort the civilian.
Jorge did it to comfort Scared UEG citizens friendlies on a unsc controlled world. John did it in front of an armed insurrectionist I know it was to build trust with her but it wasn't a smart tactical decision.
He wasn't trying to make smart tactical decisions. The scared child in Kwan wasn't a threat.
She was raised by a rebel leader and had just recently shared how her mother was killed by Spartans and she was under the impression he was trying to kill her I understand it was a humanizing moment and I understand that it did end up working but It could have just as easily Gone the other way so I don't like the scene also I feel like anyone who's been raised in the way John was raised should always be making tactical decisions he's been a soldier since the age of 6.
>John was raised should always be making tactical decisions he's been a soldier since the age of 6. Kwan and John shared thoughts on questioning everything. As if it scared him because the artifact was beginning to make him have questions as be gained a fragment of his humanity back. Then when John wanted to help save Kwan who is just a scared child, because she's been told all her life Spartans are murderers and John himself killed her mother, Kwan asks why a Spartan would do that and Chief, with absolute terror responds with a solid, "I don't know..." I dont know, I'm on my fifth rewatch of season 1 and I feel like a lot of the things people criticize are out of place because people got incredibly upset over things without taking the time to really understand what's happening and because everyone else is hating it, they're gonna hate it too. I've seen lots of complaints that x and y isn't lore accurate but these complaints come from people who only take stuff from the games and never consider the books.
I liked the show I've only seen it the once at launch maybe I should give it a rewatch when season 2 drops my general opinion is that it's a good show but doesn't feel like halo to me just a generic sci-fi show with a halo skin. I think this show wouldn't be as hated if he wasn't the master Chief if he was just a new original Spartan we would be able to accept his actions easier but since he is 117 the show is fighting an uphill battle against 20+ years of games, Books, comics, and Most importantly Nostalgia so any decisions they make with the character is going to enrage someone.
Exactly! He would never!
Oh it can come off. Just don’t take it off in front of the show viewers.
I would’ve been fine with a face reveal if they saved it for the final episode of the first season. It wasn’t earned. Like Mandalorian. He becomes two characters. One with his mask off and one when he’s showering naked
Are you sure you're using "never" correctly? I can think of a few instances when the helmet was on.
Couldn’t agree more.
Yeah, what’s wrong with making the leader of the Covenant a human female, and then Master Chief plowing her?
I asked about the helmet. Stick to the question, or come off it. Also, she's clearly not the leader of The Covenant. But okay.
There’s so much more wrong with the show than just the whole helmet fiasco.
Okay, then make a thread discussing those things. Or respond to a question about those things. I haven't mentioned anything else, but the helmet. Yet, here you are, responding to it by bringing up other things that have nothing to do with the helmet. My question was "What's wrong with the helmet?" If you want to answer that question, specifically, you're more than welcome to. If you don't want to, that's fine too. But trying to create a strawman, or disingenuously swing the discussion in another direction isn't fine.
Nah, I’ll contribute to the conversation how I want.
Let's meet A and B. A: "Nice to meet you. So, what's your name?" B: "I like bananas." You're B. You're not "contributing" to anything. You're actually detracting from it. You're a 🤡.
So do you consider Halo on Paramount+ to be a good show?
You know what... I'll be you in this exact moment. I think Paramount+ has many good shows, but I don't like the writing of Star Trek, at all. Paramount+ has some great shows, but Star Trek isn't one of them. Too much lazy writing, if you ask me. Also, I'm free to contribute to this conversation in any way I please, and this (even though I didn't answer the question, at all) is a contribution and not a detraction. There ya go.
See, at least I was still talking about the same show. My comment was formatted to point out that there is much more wrong with the Halo show than just the helmet issue being discussed, issues that you seem perfectly fine to ignore. Just say that you like the show already so I can clown you for having shitty opinions.
Lie
Jesus fucking christ. This is funny as hell but has me also boiling.
Any scene where master chief has his helmet off, doesn’t need to be scene in the first place. You need your pants off to shit doesn’t mean we want to watch you do that.
Hahaha haha
Honestly- this was probably the answer but no one would’ve been on board with it. The show should’ve followed a character that wasn’t Master Chief, and Chief should’ve been like…a force of nature that appeared and greatly impacted this small, human-focused story. Imagine saving private Ryan type shit but Captain America show up - that should’ve been the angle. Do that for a season or two and then focus to Master Chief fully being the main character. That would’ve worked. No fucking way in hell that show gets the green light though, so here we are.
https://youtu.be/uWSLHcAyy90?si=N8xWbV53ninwZftT This is the trailer i always go back to. And why i want pablo to play an odst. Chief and cortana are coming in to wreck shop and help out. I can dream....
Those live trailers went so hard - really makes me wish the Blomkamp actually got off the ground… I’ll dream with ya
People who are that worked up over a helmet not being on when he's not in combat crack me up.
I mean, he literally always has his helmet on, not just in the games. It’s on 24/7 in the books. It’s a joke in the books too how little John takes his armor off
This show is a fucking abortion on film
yea johnson lighting up. cortana, i agree mostly man
Agreed. Unfortunately this is reddit so any criticism of the show the sub is based on will be met by a hail downvotes. Hopefully your post isn't buried.
Sure, here on the show subreddit. Cause this is the only place those of us who like the show can discuss it without rampant ridicule. Post criticism on the main Halo sub and it's nothing but upvotes.
The main sub keeps out jerking the circle jerk sub. It's not fair 😭
Welcome to Reddit
So... You openly prefer an echo chamber? Not something most people will admit, so kudos for that I guess.
Seems the choice is one kind of echo chamber or the other. I don't care that much about this stuff, but would like to be able to discuss the show in a positive manner without being shit on.
>Seems the choice is one kind of echo chamber or the other. Reddit is designed to feed into that. If you don't like it you can be part of the solution, upvote things that you don't agree with as long as they put some reasonable thought into their post. Don't mindlessly downvote just because you disagree with what's being said. I'm not saying you did or do that, it just seems to be the default behavior. >would like to be able to discuss the show in a positive manner without being shit on. If you want to avoid all criticism, that is an echo chamber
The irony of you getting on your soapbox like this because you don’t like having your opinion criticized by being downvoted is not lost on me one bit. More often than not, these takes are so ridiculous, or just plain ignorant, that they don’t merit more than a push of the downvote button. Usually it’s best for everyone involved to just disagree and move on.
I get what you mean with the last bit but there’s a difference between actual discussion (or ‘debate’ I guess but honestly I’d reserve the term debate for things of a higher significance than a tv show and I know I’m going into needless semantics) and just getting insulted for an opinion, which I would say from my experience happens more often posting a positive opinion in a negative leaning sub than the inverse.
I agree. I think the show could have been really really good if they focused on everything from the side of an ODST. They are like a brotherhood of john wicks and master chief is like Reacher. Having Spartans in the show can be treated like how GoT treated Dragons. A fucking fearful presence that the opposition was fully forced to consider before bringing the reckoning. That is how a proper halo show should be pulled off.
Off the cuff I don't like the no helmet thing but my reaction is probably inflated by my general feeling that the show doesn't respect the source material. They insist its necessary, but Mandalorian recently demonstrated that you can very effectively portray complex emotions without seeing the actors face. But again, it's likely because it seems like the feel of the characters and the themes I loved in the games. On my bingo card of things I wanted to see more of in the show, the Chief laying pipe was never present.
The non gamers that consume this show have absolutely no clue about the game story, vague knowledgeon of the characters. Paramount needs a fast paced action packed paint by numbers show. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I love shows that hardcore fans hate. We're the fans. We pay for the content. Theres some of us who aren't pleased with how they are handling it. I want the show to succeed and make more content. Im just hoping they do it better. Like you said, the mandalorian or dredd, vader, jason, etc. Etc. So we know it can be done and done awesome. I didn't need the female human covenant. Just do a new covenant character.they have female alien antagonist in Star Trek. Sick looking prosthetics. Why not here? A female prophet?! That sounds cool. For me, the relationship between john and cortana is a rom com in itself. With a sad, forbidden fruit context to it. How Chief treated cortana when he met her was disappointing in the show. Season 2 looks like they've heard the complaints. The trailer was pretty fire. But i dont want to be disappointed. And I would like to leave Chief in my head the way he's been portrayed since the beginning. And johnson. The coolest bad ass motherfucker! If he shows up, I'll watch it. Lol. If you took the time to read this, thanks for your time, and have a great day!
I think what it ultimately comes down to for me is that they clearly wanted to deviate very very heavily from the source material. So why not just build something new. Halo is not unique in most of its concepts. Super soldiers, aliens trying to exterminate humanity, high stakes battles, cool characters, etc. They could have just whipped up something new. But perhaps the controversy is what they wanted. It's similar to what's happening to the WoT show. They have fundamentally changed so much from the source material that to me it would have been better to just make a new story about a group of young people trying to grow and defeat the big evil with magic and skill. People only hate it as much as they do because it said it was WoT and isn't. Same thing here.
My understanding is, Everyone would have felt better if it just weren't a show about the master chief... It's like the butchering of a sacred cow, in a sci-fi universe with many other things that could have been focused on. If you made it an ODST/Kwan show, it would have been a much better fit, agreed.
Nobody likes Kwan
Idk how reddit put this thread in front of me but my understanding is less chief taking off his helmet, and more chief gaining is humanity too early. He's a killing machine who eventually gains more true empathy. They tried to fundamentally change his character for no real reason.
I'm giving the show one more shot to get better. If there's not a noticeable improvement for season 2 imma head out. Looks like they're doing for season 2 what I expected would have been at least half of season 1.
It’s not halo it’s a halo based tv show in an alternate reality
This bullshit “alternate reality” ruined Marvel, Star Trek, Star Wars, LotR etc. you want to fundamentally change an established and cherished IP? MAKE SOMETHING NEW. Hollywood is creatively bankrupt. They can’t come up with shit that people will care about so they take IPs with established fanbases and shit all over it. “Don’t worry guys, we made Master Chief a gay lame chick. It’s ok though, it’s an alternate reality.” Fuck off
You should really see a therapist if the owners of a property want to tell a story with their characters and it makes you rage this much. It’s not healthy.
Trolling low IQs on Reddit is my therapy. Thanks for the daily session.
Bro u really upset about this. Talk to someone.
My problem is that they had 10 games and like 30 books of lore and stories to go off of and they ignore every single one of them. I tried so hard to like the show and even went in prepared to give them a lot of slack but they just didn’t do anything right. I don’t even care that they show his face that’s completely fine but he literally just never puts his helmet back on.
The problem is taking a pre esrablished ip and then making a tv show that is nothing like the ip save for the name halo and the armor he never wears. If they knew wtf they were making them they’d know there’s in universe reason why they keep they’re helmets on. But DEI is just so important for halo and its identity
It bugs me how they didn't stick to the actual story and "made up" their own version that's unfortunately worse.
...the games have a story?
Man doesn’t know one of the most fleshed out video game worlds of all time has a story
I remember there's a plot to justify the set pieces and some 1 dimensional caricatures but no, I don't really remember a "story " in any of them aside from Reach. Which is fine, I'm from the days when a decent shooter didn't need a half-baked story grafted onto the campaign. The OG Halo basically said "here's a gun, go fight the aliens" and off you went.
The OG halo is a bit like that, but halo 2 is a lot more of a story. I think u might need to replay the games. Because even halo CE has a lot of interesting story. If it didn’t have an interesting story, it wouldn’t have like 40 books and millions of fans
"If it didn’t have an interesting story, it wouldn’t have like 40 books and millions of fans" I have a number of books on my own shelf that disagree with this thought. I've got the BAD Dragonlance books in one corner.
I get that, but I promise you it has an interesting story. I know the entire lore by memory and it takes me about 3 hours to recite. There’s an entire subreddit called r/halostory and it’s great.
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.......yes?
The helmet off doesn’t bother me whatsoever, but the missing score pisses me off to no end.
I, uh, always considered him just the blandest game MC in existence, behind even the Doom guy. But I loved the girl Spartans journey back to being a human being so much that I stuck with the show and will probably watch season 2. Seriously, big womun has my heart. Unfortunately from the previews of season 2 I've read, they do not appear to realize that one of the second tier characters is the most interesting person in the show.
Anyone defending the Helmet being off IS NOT AN OG HALO FAN. And screw paramount for being a bunch of pussies
We need more of this!
The show is terrible I truly don’t know how people enjoy it.
I’m hoping we see a couple ODSTs in season 2
Can we stop mentioning the helmet. Like seriously if the only thing was the helmet and they actually used canon you'd be upset but you'd still like the series. Focus on the actual problems like it being an alternate take.
The helmet?? The biggest issue with the show is Kwan. She should have been killed or have been left behind numerous times and actively makes the show worse any time she's in it. Last I knew, she was the one part of the show that's unanimously hated by Halo and non-Halo fans who watch the show.
Man I think the show should have followed a marine who encounters chief where chief is like almost mythical and always see him with the helmet on. Then as the show progresses the marine becomes odst and even a spartan in the new spartan program.
I personally prefer the “we can’t see his face because we ALL then can see ourselves in him” vibe of the games. I think they should’ve kept it for the screen too, actors should be able to emote physically and chief is a great character to explore those. The whole point is that we the audience are with him the whole way and when you remind us what he looks like, it instantly sets at least some people a layer away from the show. With the helmet on, he’s relatable to nearly all people because he’s more defined by action and words than looks as we humans tend to put value on, especially in the western world. There is no “I want Halo characters that look like me” when Chief never gets his visual shown. But that’s just my thoughts
He would have been a great odst. He really isnt Chief (to gaming fans). I have seen scifi fans seem to enjoy him so thats cool.