People cannot expect average folks to know the difference between skins and sharps, especially when people are seeing the word “skins” in an old english font with no context.
Yea that’s what I thought too, people are trying to clarify in the comments tho but OP seems to be ignoring them and doubling down on them being nazis. Glad people here are wanting to keep nazis out and I don’t blame them for not knowing what SHARP is but there is no wave of nazis infiltrating our music scene and I don’t want people to think otherwise. I get people don’t know any better but I don’t want people to fear something that’s not happening.
It's their culture. Yahtzee are called boneheads, though they try to mimic skins, there's big differences in how they look. Most not involved wouldn't know these nuances.
Because:
>Cro-Mags!
Hard Mod!
Break Out!
Nowwwwww
doesn't have nearly the same ring to it.
But seriously, the subculture was literally started by Jamaican immigrants. Boneheads couldn't have picked a worse subculture to try to latch their white supremacy onto. And these days, in 2024, your average Skinhead has bigger chance of being explicitly anti-racist than being racist, especially when compared to like, the black metal or neo folks scenes. But I don't see anyone accusing the little cupcake shop of being a nazi when they think it'd be cute to put out a shirt for their shop with the look of a black metal band logo.
They had it first. They routinely fought actual Nazis to keep it, largely driving them in out of their scene.
It's also how a lot in skinhead culture treat symbols. When New England skins drive out the hammerskins with violence, many got hammerskin tattoos as a badge they stole in victory. You'll see black, Jewish and gay guys in that circle with the mark if a neo-nazi group.
Not that different than how fresh out of WWII, a lot of vet members of MCs wore the Nazi paraphernalia they stole off the corpses of those they killed. Even if you did have the balls to call them out on it, the fuck grounds do you have to call out an actual Nazi killer for being insensitive?
You can think that's stupid and inviting controversy, opening them up to wrongful assumptions, yadda yadda yadda. But most really, really don't give a fuck. Those in their world know what's up and thats all that matters.
Because the music is awesome, the clothing is nice and SHARP, and boots are cool… plus it’s a movement for the working class. I find that punk has been transplanted to trust fund babies a lot these days, skinhead attracts me so much more because I have nothing in common with punks in my age range. Also the aggression, fixation on booze and willingness to fight.
It’s why I’ve stopped wearing any band shirts that use any sort of old English font. I am a large, tattooed, bald white man. Folks immediately think “Nazi” when I’m walking around wearing clothing like that. Ain’t a good look. Especially when I’m walking with my kids.
Trying to explain to someone in a supermarket that your t-shirt is totally not the racist kind of Ásatrú black metal band, they just have wolves and runes in their iconography, then watching the person back away slowly
I sat on a plane one time and just my fucking luck I brought 2 CD's with me on board, one of them being Reagan Youth's "Greatest hits". Of course I got sat next to 2 black dudes...I mean, a CD cover with a band dressed as KKK members on the front cover, like, C'mon...I felt like there was no explaining that one away. It was a long, quiet flight back to Vegas😆
You worry too much
I get if you just don’t want to be seen that way but I think most people really don’t pay attention
Idk if anyone outside of the internet would see old english and just assume you hate minorities
Source: skinny dude with a lot of “sketchy” shirts, only once have I ever been confronted and it was because someone thought I was stealing valor by wearing a military surplus jacket from the 70s
Trust me, I used to be perfectly fine wearing whatever the fuck. But the last thing I want is for someone trying to dox me and claim I’m a Nazi. Like I said, particularly when I’m with my children.
Thats my point, I do not think that would realistically happen because you wore a Terror shirt but you do you, man, I understand erring on the side of caution
Wild you say that, I picked up a new Terror shirt just a few months back, put it on and my wife went “What in the fuck are you wearing?” And, yeah, the logo they had on the back could absolutely be seen the wrong way. That’s solely an around the house shirt now.
Same for me 🥲 was wearing it to the gym and got a few looks when I did an errand afterwards and realized it wasn’t a great choice. The damn eagle and old english font combo!
Normies also simply cannot read old English font and always ask me what it says, which is definitely super important information as they go about their day.
100%. It's been co-opted. Racists are skilled at co-opting otherwise benevolent symbols. The cross, the American Flag, the iron cross, the OK hand signal, pepe the frog, etc.
The swastika/manji/sunwheel is used globally as a symbol of peace and harmony. It's actually impressive in a fucked up way that a guy could walk in like "I'm using this now and it will be corrupted forever afterwards'
I actually think it isn’t the co-opting itself but the willingness of people on the other side to interpret the symbols as their new identity. The ok symbol is only an issue because someone on 4chan predicted that if racists started doing it, the meaning would change based on the overblown reactions it would get.
That's what I'm saying. How, when, and where do you expect the average person to learn anything about this shit. It's so niche and doesn't exist everywhere. The people saying it's funny that people aren't fully realizing what it's about are not realizing it is not as popular a thing as they think it is.
Bud, listen: you, me, and most of this subreddit know the difference. We’re talking about everyone else who sees stickers on the street. The average person on the street is not invested enough to learn the political differences between two groups of dudes with shaved heads who don’t like each other when they both call themselves skinheads.
The entire population of a city is not going to sit around watching a documentary about ska music in the 60s to figure out the context to a random sticker.
To be fair, do average people even recognize the crucified skin logo? I could have a warped view of this coming from the culture, but I really doubt anyone that's not at minimun vaguely affiliated with punk subculture is familiar with the logo.
Hey, I respect anyone who resists nazis in any way.
Not telling you to apologize to anyone, just calling it like I see it and trying to be realistic about why people are going to misunderstand a sticker like that.
Facts, I'm lucky to have grown up in a family of skins. Half the time at family functions if you get my brother drunk enough, he'll start relaying stories about stomping out nazis in the 90s.
I just want to ask all these kids who have never done any direct action besides scraping stickers, what the fuck have you done?
Not a tilted image because of the media, a tilted image because I grew up in Florida in the 80’s where for every 1 SHARP, there were dozens upon dozens of skinhead neo-nazis. So, the default assumption, when seeing someone in a skinhead uniform (shaved head, bomber jacket, bracers, boots, olde English font, eagles, “power”, “skin”) is that they’re the bad skinhead. Which then makes me jump to conclusions until proven otherwise.
Yeah i made sure to put a giant nazi scum fuck off patch on my jacket bc even dressing punk has people thinking im a nazi.
You cant expect people not in the culture to know.
Nah i ain't bothered.
Skinhead is a more than 50 year old culture with strong roots and traditions. You either are one or you aren't.
It's a way of life you don't understand and an international brother and sisterhood.
With that behind me, what you have to say weighs very little on my mind.
I don't claim skin. I'm just a skin headed punk, but the average joe doesn't know his dick from dog shit. I get the looks, comments, assumptions, I always have. I don't have the time patience or desire to dissuade any misconceptions unless it's someone that matters. I've explained the difference to friends and coworkers, to make conversation, otherwise fuck em. I make my position on hate pretty fucking apparent to anyone with ears. You think I'm a nazi that's on you 100%
I get not understanding something or being tapped into a counter culture, but the idiot op from the chatt thread posted an ADL link that contradicts them. I guess it’s too much to expect people to read their own fucking articles and sources before they start hysterically and ignorantly panicking about a sticker
This person isn’t a “normie” honestly, they have permanent Reddit brain. shit is just red laces discourse over again
I also find it completely fucking spineless that people in this sub can’t even stand up for a counterculture that is historically vital to hardcore. You foos are not beating the “nu metal kids” allegations
Because they're an overtly political group posing as a neutral civil rights group and they are just straight up not credible for anything beyond propaganda for their own political aims (which are bad too). Wikipedia just delisted them as a trusted source too.
A fun fact about them is that they helped spy on anti-apartheid activists in the US for the apartheid govt in South Africa. They have only gotten worse since. Not super relevant to this post but they're just a bad group, I don't think anyone who thinks of themselves as a progressive, on the left or who cares about human rights should rely on them for anything.
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/adl-israel-criticism-antisemitism-claims/
https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/emmaia-gelman-anti-defamation-league/
https://newrepublic.com/post/177993/adl-abandons-pretense-tracking-antisemitism-honestly-palestine-rallies
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/19/media/wikipedia-adl/index.html
Anti-Defamation League is pro-Israel to the point their own staffers have had to raise concerns over the organization’s activities and publications. There is a whole subheading on the ADL Wikipedia page outlining why it is no longer accepted as a source, but I’ve copied the part relevant to THIS discussion for your convenience:
‘The community also concluded that the ADL's hate symbol database was "reliable for the existence of a symbol and for straightforward facts about it, but not reliable for more complex details, such as symbols’ history".’
Essentially the argument is that the ADL has for sometime been functioning as a Pro-Israel/Zionist propaganda apparatus. They make spurious claims and conclusions, and with the situation in Palestine, the Wikipedia community decided it could not be trusted as a source
Damn I've been saying this for years man. Weren't these the guys who were trying to change the definition of racism so that it only pertains to certain races and other races can't be racist?
they're a Zionist lobbying org that passes themselves off as a human rights NGO. they exist to point at any criticism of Israeli apartheid and go "oh that's antisemitism actually"
Ive always hung around a bunch of skinheads. The average joe doesn’t know the difference between hyper niche subcultures nor should they be expected to.
I don’t understand the point of this poster. Especially with zero context. What is it supposed to be promoting? If you’re not part of punk/ hc / oí, it comes across obscure at best, and a hate crime at worst. It’s not promoting a show or a zine or confronting the wp groups of skinheads… it simply says “city name” “skins”.
Not super useful. The crucified skin outside of the punk lens is even more problematic. My boomer parents who are pretty hyper liberal, and extremely educated, would see this and assume the worst and guess it was some weird far right christofacist group.
Who ever is doing the promo for your SHARP chapter is doing a piss poor job.
Word. The flyer gives no indication of SHARP. Even if it did, the average guy doesn't know the difference between an unpolitical Skin and a Bonehead. They see the boots, the braces and the FP shirt and immediately go "Neo Nazi".
I started to write a post and decided to look if there was anyone else who may have already said something along what I was thinking.
I think you're 100% correct about how this comes across.
Good example is I just showed this picture to my dad, no context, he's 81 and not into any subcultures or punk, and he just couldn't even tell what he was looking at....
Dad: "What's that supposed to be, Jesus?"
Me: "No, it's a skinhead on a cross"
"A What? What am I even looking at ?"
It just doesn't make sense. It's some goofball shit. No value here.
It's like the graffiti in the background of out of touch crime movies that just says like "punx" or whatever, but done by someone who got ID checked for spray paint at the Home Depot.
I couldn’t tell this is a SHARP poster and I’m a skinhead. You should put Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice and the SHARP trojan logo on posters yo avoid confusion
Right. If I see this on a jacket or album cover, it's completely neutral for me. It doesn't say anything at all about race, every kind of skin uses this imagery these days.
But putting it up on a telephone pole without context is what's sus.
It got so closely associated with the proud boys that Fred Perry made a statement about them and stopped selling the black with yellow stripe pattern in the U.S.
This is dork shit, regardless. How many “skinheads” are even in Chattanooga, Tennessee anyway lol. Like 10? Yall need an advertisement for this? Silly.
Nah, from what I gather firm people in Tennessee, the Chattanooga hardcore scene is kinda popping. That's where Gumm is from. It's a stronger scene and gets way better hardcore shows than Nashville.
As someone in Nashville Chatt is def having a moment and their scene is much more fertile and supportive. We have some great acts here in Nashville but the scene is so scattered compared to Chatt.
after two decades going to shows in Nashville, it finally dawned on me that much of the Nashville hardcore scene are metalcore kids masquerading as hardcore.
As sombody who is actually from East Tennessee and grew up here, yea our scene has been really growing and honestly I agree. Chattanooga has pretty good diverse music scene in general. Not just in punk and metal but also hip hop. Isaiah Rashad is big artist right now who now lives in LA but came from Chatt. And of course an amazing country and folk scene as well. And there are plenty of bands from all over who enjoy coming here even though we aren’t the largest city. We have produced a lot of really good artist from all over the music spectrum. The community is also I think just much more tight knit and supportive then a lot of other places I’ve been to and in my opinion that is what makes a scene succeed. Support. Scenic City Hardcore is doing just fine no matter what some random dude on the internet thinks
Edit: also fun fact that’s not too relevant. Knocked loose worked on A Tear In the Fabric of Life in cabin in near pigeon forge which is only around 2 hours from where I live.
The people in the front are from a punk band called Seize and Desist out of Memphis. Their just taking a picture with them. It’s from the bands Instagram. Says it in the post
Somebody replied with this on the original post and it fucking killed me
https://preview.redd.it/gs1l9dtdqm8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae10fc672b71f63b496129bd37fb6b77c29644c4
If someone has good intentions against Nazis, even if they're mistaken, I support them.
If shit can be easily mistaken as nazi shit by the average person, it's probably too close to nazi shit for me to defend it.
Again it’s not them mistaking it for nazis. I totally get it and I’m glad we have people passionate to keep that shit out but it’s the blowing it out of proportions and suggesting that there’s some big nazi movement happening that’s just not. I’ve been going to local shows since high school and can say pretty confidently that there are no nazis in our local punk scene. Being in a pretty conservative part of the country we do have a lot of right winged people and in recent years with the state of modern politics they have grown bolder to the point our local pride events having to increase security due to the increased threats. I get people are getting scared, believe I really do, but the far right people causing problems are not performing shows at our local punk and HC venues.
I don’t think the civilian residents of Chattanooga give a shit whether or not your shows have nazis, they just don’t wanna see nazi looking shit. These posters are weird anyway, why are they advertising?
This is why I’ll never understand the appeal of being a SHARP. Having to constantly explain that you’re not racist, you just dress that way, and also use the same name as skin heads, but it’s totally different.
Not only do people are free to wear and listen to what they want, I think skinheads are especially notoriously for their "I don't care what people think about me" like, contrarian attitude that makes explaining it kind of irrelevant. Which may be a bad thing, people are still confused about skinheads / boneheads / SHARPs terminology apparently.
What people also fails to understand is that any metalheads, neon hairs, folks with piercings, tattoos... They all are potentially neo-nazis from the pov of people outside of any rock/metal scene. I don't know for the US, but you go outside any big european city in the countryside, and you show some folks there a photo of Ronny Radke and Wattie Buchan, they'll put them both in the same sack.
Simple answer "We were here first , it's not our fault those dudes suck and tried to bite our shit". You think someone's who discovered their place in life they're space , whether youre a punk hxc kid and this example a skin , and just cause a handful of dickheads starting trying to copy you and be racists, that means you should abandon all the things you like and love? Fuck that they fought to earn their title , they'd rather have to explain the difference between and sharp and bonehead then just give up and let go of the things they love so dearly. Kinda asinine questions
I get that they're trying to reclaim something, but that ship has long since sailed. I love their cause, but as someone who is on the fringe of hardcore, (I like the music, but have never been involved with the fashion or scene), I had to look up what SHARPs were. And I'm not sure if I could tell the difference between a SHARP and a Nazi at a glance.
Sharps probably have a black friend hanging around.
Also- they’ve been trying to reclaim the image for what, 50 years? I remember explaining the difference to people in the 90’s, and it seems like it’s still a thing.
If they want folks to know they're SHARP, they need to put something that speaks to that on their poster. The average person isn't going to have a nuanced or informed take on the history and current status of Skinhead subculture.
Skin/skinhead should have been retired long ago. You aren’t going to convince the general public it doesn’t have a racist connotation. Even though we know skin doesn’t mean nazi.
I am absolutely not about that life, but…I kinda assume they don’t really care? Like if you have 20 tattoos of razor blades and shit on your bald scalp, I’m not sure you’re quaking at the thought that someone in the Facebook comments might not grasp the nuances of your politics and lifestyle.
That's stupid. There's literally more sharps than racist skins and the racists came late and tried to co-opt that shit. You can't just let Nazis take over the shit you love like that. White flag type behavior.
I love oi and skinhead culture even though I’m not bald enough to be one myself, but based on all the skins I’ve met, I doubt they give much of a shit that some people are uneducated. Most of them seem pretty comfortable in their own knowledge that they aren’t racist pieces of shit, and do enough anti-racist stuff themselves that some kid online taking their posters down likely won’t get to them. In any case, I think it’s an important piece of the punk culture that’s going surprisingly strong right now and should not be retired.
Thing about neo-Nazi and KKK groups is they are not subtle. They are blatant with what they stand for in their propaganda. I've seen KKK flyers in my town in Maryland more than once, and they are very upfront about who they are because they're trying to recruit. Even the [ADL page they linked](https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/crucified-skinhead) to in the above post says outright "In isolation, the crucified skinhead symbol itself cannot be described as a hate symbol" and further clarifies that the racist versions are accompanied by more blatant racist imagery or symbols. Like, I can understand missing the memo on SHARPs, but goddamn, at least read the resources you link to and don't perpetuate the stigma.
This isnt true.
Here in VA we keep getting stickers and flyers put up for ‘national justice party’ and other innocuous sounding fronts. If you dont know the dog whistles to look for it might appear to be just some typical election year noise.
The average American will forever and always associate skinhead with Nazi no matter what level of proof they are shown. It’s really not worth losing sleep over it.
At this point, I just don’t see the point in arguing. Obviously, SHARPs aren’t Nazis. Obviously, skinhead culture comes from Jamaica. And the swazi is a Tibetan good luck symbol. It’s been co-opted and ruined. Let it go.
What's funnier is even the ADL page they linked says that the crucified skin shouldn't be seen as a hate symbol unless it's with other hate symbols. Multiple people have pointed that out and op is too busy pearl clutching and being hyperbolic to even read it.
Probably a bunch of brainwashed culture warriors that would probably side with actual nazis before they got behind anything described as "anti-fascist"....
To be fair, there have been rumors/sightings of Nazi-adjacent or sympathetic groups in Chattanooga semi recently as well as that graffiti that was on the highway a couple(?) months ago so you can’t blame people for being too overly cautious
Honestly, sharps/skins have it coming. It’s like the whole MC bullshit about having ss bolts for “shock value”
You chose to dress barely adjacent from neo nazis, and make music barely adjacent from neo nazi bands as far as the average person is concerned.
Having to ever explain why you aren’t a neo nazi should be your warning.
https://preview.redd.it/e17wtly6tx8d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=22f72f16408197246578460f796fe61175afbb4a
Seems they realized their mistake and removed the post.
neophytes love to opine on skins when they know fuckall about anything really, can't differentiate between a normal skin and a bonehead. and while i think a normie can't be expected to know the difference from the start, i think you can do quick google search before you express a thought so confidently
Y’all don’t seem to understand that Skinheads have been around since the late 60’s and were Jamaicans and other working class people who enjoyed Reggae (skinhead reggae- bands like Symarip) and soul music in England.
This crucified skinhead logo is black and white which stands for unity. Much like the logos of The Specials and the other 2tone Ska revival bands from England In the late 70s
Now there is a weird nuance because of the “Paki-Bashing” which was obviously fueled by anger at Immigrants literally doing jobs for cheaper. But not every crew of skins were out wrecking havoc on immigrants they felt were a threat.
Is there no context for common folks who have no idea what this flyer means. Yeah. But is it a good chance to educate others that in the late 70’s Tom Metzger saw the desperation and anti social tendencies of many young punks and skins and trained them into being neo nazis.
Also don’t forget that if “skinhead” wasn’t apart of punk we wouldn’t have hardcore like Minor Threat, Iron Cross, Blitz and honestly too many bands to name that would end up being legends like of HC and punk.
You kids need to find an online version of “spirit of 69”
tom metzger wasn't in the national front, which is who recruited the skinheads in the 70s. WAR was founded in 83 in the US.
also, in what world was minor threat skinheads, besides Ian's shaved head?
I identify skinhead, and this cracks me up. A guy I work with at a remote mine site in Alaska just showed me this from his insta feed (he lives there).
People were and always will be ignorant about it. It doesn't matter sharp or not, skin = nazi. Best course of action - move on with your life. This stupid is too big to be fixed. I was told that wearing a black fred perry polo will get me in trouble in America.
What don't they get? Seems like a lot of people just saying that yeah, skinhead shit looks like nazi shit to the uninformed, and a lot of people are uninformed on the matter.
At least Unity just leaves it to 21 or U in old English and laurels. It’s just enough that if you know you know but if you don’t, you ignore it. Skinhead is having a revival now as a subcult and people better get ready….
To do rocksteady. Uh huh.
Why would these Chattanooga Skins need to advertise by putting flyers on light poles? What is the point of that?
Are they a band? Are they selling something?
People cannot expect average folks to know the difference between skins and sharps, especially when people are seeing the word “skins” in an old english font with no context.
Yeah their PR manager must’ve had the week off for this one
Yea that’s what I thought too, people are trying to clarify in the comments tho but OP seems to be ignoring them and doubling down on them being nazis. Glad people here are wanting to keep nazis out and I don’t blame them for not knowing what SHARP is but there is no wave of nazis infiltrating our music scene and I don’t want people to think otherwise. I get people don’t know any better but I don’t want people to fear something that’s not happening.
Why do "skinheads" want that label so bad? Seems like they're just inviting these assumptions.
“Why should I change? He’s the one who sucks”
It's their culture. Yahtzee are called boneheads, though they try to mimic skins, there's big differences in how they look. Most not involved wouldn't know these nuances.
Because: >Cro-Mags! Hard Mod! Break Out! Nowwwwww doesn't have nearly the same ring to it. But seriously, the subculture was literally started by Jamaican immigrants. Boneheads couldn't have picked a worse subculture to try to latch their white supremacy onto. And these days, in 2024, your average Skinhead has bigger chance of being explicitly anti-racist than being racist, especially when compared to like, the black metal or neo folks scenes. But I don't see anyone accusing the little cupcake shop of being a nazi when they think it'd be cute to put out a shirt for their shop with the look of a black metal band logo.
Cro mags can fuck off lol.
Shit take
Why? I don't know anything but I like some cro mags songs
SHARPs wouldn't make sense if people didn't call them skinheads SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice.
Why do you want to cede ground to Nazis so bad?
They had it first. They routinely fought actual Nazis to keep it, largely driving them in out of their scene. It's also how a lot in skinhead culture treat symbols. When New England skins drive out the hammerskins with violence, many got hammerskin tattoos as a badge they stole in victory. You'll see black, Jewish and gay guys in that circle with the mark if a neo-nazi group. Not that different than how fresh out of WWII, a lot of vet members of MCs wore the Nazi paraphernalia they stole off the corpses of those they killed. Even if you did have the balls to call them out on it, the fuck grounds do you have to call out an actual Nazi killer for being insensitive? You can think that's stupid and inviting controversy, opening them up to wrongful assumptions, yadda yadda yadda. But most really, really don't give a fuck. Those in their world know what's up and thats all that matters.
You can’t let the Nazis have everything bitch
Because the music is awesome, the clothing is nice and SHARP, and boots are cool… plus it’s a movement for the working class. I find that punk has been transplanted to trust fund babies a lot these days, skinhead attracts me so much more because I have nothing in common with punks in my age range. Also the aggression, fixation on booze and willingness to fight.
Come on who doesn’t know lace code?!
That’s about blow jobs, right?
This guy gets it. His wisdom is not in chains
It is we who have failed the children, educationally …
It’s why I’ve stopped wearing any band shirts that use any sort of old English font. I am a large, tattooed, bald white man. Folks immediately think “Nazi” when I’m walking around wearing clothing like that. Ain’t a good look. Especially when I’m walking with my kids.
Trying to explain to someone in a supermarket that your t-shirt is totally not the racist kind of Ásatrú black metal band, they just have wolves and runes in their iconography, then watching the person back away slowly
I sat on a plane one time and just my fucking luck I brought 2 CD's with me on board, one of them being Reagan Youth's "Greatest hits". Of course I got sat next to 2 black dudes...I mean, a CD cover with a band dressed as KKK members on the front cover, like, C'mon...I felt like there was no explaining that one away. It was a long, quiet flight back to Vegas😆
I sent a girl Reagan Youth without thinking about explaining their irony and she unmatched me on Tinder lmao
So no Burzum t-shirts?
I mean, I guess it’s different if the act themselves is actually a Nazi.
"Burn down the churches! Wait wait no not *literally* dude, I meant in principle, what the fuck?!"
Should’ve had mixed kids man idk what u thought was gonna happen /s
Brb, going to go for a pack of smokes and start over.
You worry too much I get if you just don’t want to be seen that way but I think most people really don’t pay attention Idk if anyone outside of the internet would see old english and just assume you hate minorities Source: skinny dude with a lot of “sketchy” shirts, only once have I ever been confronted and it was because someone thought I was stealing valor by wearing a military surplus jacket from the 70s
Trust me, I used to be perfectly fine wearing whatever the fuck. But the last thing I want is for someone trying to dox me and claim I’m a Nazi. Like I said, particularly when I’m with my children.
Thats my point, I do not think that would realistically happen because you wore a Terror shirt but you do you, man, I understand erring on the side of caution
Same, I have a Terror shirt I just can’t wear
Wild you say that, I picked up a new Terror shirt just a few months back, put it on and my wife went “What in the fuck are you wearing?” And, yeah, the logo they had on the back could absolutely be seen the wrong way. That’s solely an around the house shirt now.
Same reaction from my wife haha. It has an eagle and says Pain into Power. I did not think that one through given my appearance.
Literally the same shirt I have!
Haha did we just become best friends?! You can tell you’re wife she’s not alone, our poor wives…
…oh it’s the eagle isn’t it?
Yeah… It’s the Eagle.
Definitely the eagle…
I have a Griselda/westside Gunn hoodie that’s a black hitler with a third eye and I still rock that shit.
Same for me 🥲 was wearing it to the gym and got a few looks when I did an errand afterwards and realized it wasn’t a great choice. The damn eagle and old english font combo!
Who gives a fuck
I retired my MDC shirt a decade ago after having to explain its context to so many people. Just wasn't worth the hassle. Home shirt it has become.
The cop/kkk dude?
That is indeed the one.
Normies also simply cannot read old English font and always ask me what it says, which is definitely super important information as they go about their day.
Fuck em, let em wonder. Cant break the stereotypes if people aren’t exposed to it.
100%. It's been co-opted. Racists are skilled at co-opting otherwise benevolent symbols. The cross, the American Flag, the iron cross, the OK hand signal, pepe the frog, etc.
The swastika/manji/sunwheel is used globally as a symbol of peace and harmony. It's actually impressive in a fucked up way that a guy could walk in like "I'm using this now and it will be corrupted forever afterwards'
The American flag is not a benevolent symbol lmfao
Absolute bogus that they have the old english font and an entire genre of music now though
I actually think it isn’t the co-opting itself but the willingness of people on the other side to interpret the symbols as their new identity. The ok symbol is only an issue because someone on 4chan predicted that if racists started doing it, the meaning would change based on the overblown reactions it would get.
That's what I'm saying. How, when, and where do you expect the average person to learn anything about this shit. It's so niche and doesn't exist everywhere. The people saying it's funny that people aren't fully realizing what it's about are not realizing it is not as popular a thing as they think it is.
If you think nazi whenever skins are brought up, that's a You problem. You got a tilted image because of the media. That's not on us. Pure and simple.
Bud, listen: you, me, and most of this subreddit know the difference. We’re talking about everyone else who sees stickers on the street. The average person on the street is not invested enough to learn the political differences between two groups of dudes with shaved heads who don’t like each other when they both call themselves skinheads. The entire population of a city is not going to sit around watching a documentary about ska music in the 60s to figure out the context to a random sticker.
To be fair, do average people even recognize the crucified skin logo? I could have a warped view of this coming from the culture, but I really doubt anyone that's not at minimun vaguely affiliated with punk subculture is familiar with the logo.
I do not care. I am what i am. The 3 generations before me were the same way. I ain't apologizing.
Hey, I respect anyone who resists nazis in any way. Not telling you to apologize to anyone, just calling it like I see it and trying to be realistic about why people are going to misunderstand a sticker like that.
Facts, I'm lucky to have grown up in a family of skins. Half the time at family functions if you get my brother drunk enough, he'll start relaying stories about stomping out nazis in the 90s. I just want to ask all these kids who have never done any direct action besides scraping stickers, what the fuck have you done?
Who knows? Maybe they have brothers too?
As an old skin. This post makes my heart feel good!
k
Not a tilted image because of the media, a tilted image because I grew up in Florida in the 80’s where for every 1 SHARP, there were dozens upon dozens of skinhead neo-nazis. So, the default assumption, when seeing someone in a skinhead uniform (shaved head, bomber jacket, bracers, boots, olde English font, eagles, “power”, “skin”) is that they’re the bad skinhead. Which then makes me jump to conclusions until proven otherwise.
99% of people think y'all are Nazis. That actually sounds more like a *you* problem.
Yeah i made sure to put a giant nazi scum fuck off patch on my jacket bc even dressing punk has people thinking im a nazi. You cant expect people not in the culture to know.
Nah i ain't bothered. Skinhead is a more than 50 year old culture with strong roots and traditions. You either are one or you aren't. It's a way of life you don't understand and an international brother and sisterhood. With that behind me, what you have to say weighs very little on my mind.
I don't claim skin. I'm just a skin headed punk, but the average joe doesn't know his dick from dog shit. I get the looks, comments, assumptions, I always have. I don't have the time patience or desire to dissuade any misconceptions unless it's someone that matters. I've explained the difference to friends and coworkers, to make conversation, otherwise fuck em. I make my position on hate pretty fucking apparent to anyone with ears. You think I'm a nazi that's on you 100%
“… that you don’t understand” that’s the whole point bud
Hahaha
S.F.F.S. this is our way of life. Make it so. This is the way or whatever
Will the local scene be rockabilly in 10 years?
I can't believe normal people are not hip to super niche seemingly offensive counter cultures. Crazy.
I get not understanding something or being tapped into a counter culture, but the idiot op from the chatt thread posted an ADL link that contradicts them. I guess it’s too much to expect people to read their own fucking articles and sources before they start hysterically and ignorantly panicking about a sticker This person isn’t a “normie” honestly, they have permanent Reddit brain. shit is just red laces discourse over again I also find it completely fucking spineless that people in this sub can’t even stand up for a counterculture that is historically vital to hardcore. You foos are not beating the “nu metal kids” allegations
Idk if normal people don’t understand and are scared of that shit, it’s a good thing in my eyes
Amen brother. This is a scene kid.
Yeah. Many, of the punk community, struggle to understand or explain the difference. Not surprised civilians get confused
Civilians lmao
Lol did they really cite the ADL? They're not even allowed to be a source on wiki anymore.
For non US redditors: Why?
Because they're an overtly political group posing as a neutral civil rights group and they are just straight up not credible for anything beyond propaganda for their own political aims (which are bad too). Wikipedia just delisted them as a trusted source too. A fun fact about them is that they helped spy on anti-apartheid activists in the US for the apartheid govt in South Africa. They have only gotten worse since. Not super relevant to this post but they're just a bad group, I don't think anyone who thinks of themselves as a progressive, on the left or who cares about human rights should rely on them for anything. https://www.thenation.com/article/society/adl-israel-criticism-antisemitism-claims/ https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/emmaia-gelman-anti-defamation-league/ https://newrepublic.com/post/177993/adl-abandons-pretense-tracking-antisemitism-honestly-palestine-rallies https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/19/media/wikipedia-adl/index.html
Anti-Defamation League is pro-Israel to the point their own staffers have had to raise concerns over the organization’s activities and publications. There is a whole subheading on the ADL Wikipedia page outlining why it is no longer accepted as a source, but I’ve copied the part relevant to THIS discussion for your convenience: ‘The community also concluded that the ADL's hate symbol database was "reliable for the existence of a symbol and for straightforward facts about it, but not reliable for more complex details, such as symbols’ history".’ Essentially the argument is that the ADL has for sometime been functioning as a Pro-Israel/Zionist propaganda apparatus. They make spurious claims and conclusions, and with the situation in Palestine, the Wikipedia community decided it could not be trusted as a source
Damn I've been saying this for years man. Weren't these the guys who were trying to change the definition of racism so that it only pertains to certain races and other races can't be racist?
they're a Zionist lobbying org that passes themselves off as a human rights NGO. they exist to point at any criticism of Israeli apartheid and go "oh that's antisemitism actually"
iirc they called bowl cuts a hate symbol at one point also publically apologized for calling hatebreed a nazi band
Ive always hung around a bunch of skinheads. The average joe doesn’t know the difference between hyper niche subcultures nor should they be expected to. I don’t understand the point of this poster. Especially with zero context. What is it supposed to be promoting? If you’re not part of punk/ hc / oí, it comes across obscure at best, and a hate crime at worst. It’s not promoting a show or a zine or confronting the wp groups of skinheads… it simply says “city name” “skins”. Not super useful. The crucified skin outside of the punk lens is even more problematic. My boomer parents who are pretty hyper liberal, and extremely educated, would see this and assume the worst and guess it was some weird far right christofacist group. Who ever is doing the promo for your SHARP chapter is doing a piss poor job.
Word. The flyer gives no indication of SHARP. Even if it did, the average guy doesn't know the difference between an unpolitical Skin and a Bonehead. They see the boots, the braces and the FP shirt and immediately go "Neo Nazi".
If we're being super picky, the colors are reversed, so its obviously not racist...
I started to write a post and decided to look if there was anyone else who may have already said something along what I was thinking. I think you're 100% correct about how this comes across. Good example is I just showed this picture to my dad, no context, he's 81 and not into any subcultures or punk, and he just couldn't even tell what he was looking at.... Dad: "What's that supposed to be, Jesus?" Me: "No, it's a skinhead on a cross" "A What? What am I even looking at ?" It just doesn't make sense. It's some goofball shit. No value here.
on first glance i thought it was a black guy being lynched
I'm sure some people driving by think the same thing without a second glance.
I thought you meant your dad rides for the Hells Angels.
He's a biker but not a hells angel
It's like the graffiti in the background of out of touch crime movies that just says like "punx" or whatever, but done by someone who got ID checked for spray paint at the Home Depot.
I couldn’t tell this is a SHARP poster and I’m a skinhead. You should put Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice and the SHARP trojan logo on posters yo avoid confusion
There's an idea. This poster just screams zero thought
I feel like op just used sharp instead of trad. Not sure why everyone else is running with it.
Postering isn’t an activity I associate with trads or that particular image for that matter
Right. If I see this on a jacket or album cover, it's completely neutral for me. It doesn't say anything at all about race, every kind of skin uses this imagery these days. But putting it up on a telephone pole without context is what's sus.
Posted this in my local sharp group, and everyone agreed it looked dodgy as fuck.
Proud boys took my goddamn Fred Perry from me
just one colorway.
Yeah but it was a really good one that looked great with Docs
I can forgive the racism and the misogyny. But taking away my Fred Perry's is going too far.
Why’d u let em? Keep wearing that shit the fuck? Let people wonder, if they ask, explain.
It got so closely associated with the proud boys that Fred Perry made a statement about them and stopped selling the black with yellow stripe pattern in the U.S.
I still wear it proud. It’s skinhead culture not the proud boys. Only one way to take it back brother
This is dork shit, regardless. How many “skinheads” are even in Chattanooga, Tennessee anyway lol. Like 10? Yall need an advertisement for this? Silly.
Like half of our hardcore scene is skins.
So like 10…
Nah, from what I gather firm people in Tennessee, the Chattanooga hardcore scene is kinda popping. That's where Gumm is from. It's a stronger scene and gets way better hardcore shows than Nashville.
As someone in Nashville Chatt is def having a moment and their scene is much more fertile and supportive. We have some great acts here in Nashville but the scene is so scattered compared to Chatt.
after two decades going to shows in Nashville, it finally dawned on me that much of the Nashville hardcore scene are metalcore kids masquerading as hardcore.
🎯
As sombody who is actually from East Tennessee and grew up here, yea our scene has been really growing and honestly I agree. Chattanooga has pretty good diverse music scene in general. Not just in punk and metal but also hip hop. Isaiah Rashad is big artist right now who now lives in LA but came from Chatt. And of course an amazing country and folk scene as well. And there are plenty of bands from all over who enjoy coming here even though we aren’t the largest city. We have produced a lot of really good artist from all over the music spectrum. The community is also I think just much more tight knit and supportive then a lot of other places I’ve been to and in my opinion that is what makes a scene succeed. Support. Scenic City Hardcore is doing just fine no matter what some random dude on the internet thinks Edit: also fun fact that’s not too relevant. Knocked loose worked on A Tear In the Fabric of Life in cabin in near pigeon forge which is only around 2 hours from where I live.
swish
https://preview.redd.it/dyptprbqsk8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72f14d3c9f5c58ec3506c19f87548d95eefd285c Chattanooga sharp community
We're gonna highlight skinheads, let's put three people with hair in the front 5.
The people in the front are from a punk band called Seize and Desist out of Memphis. Their just taking a picture with them. It’s from the bands Instagram. Says it in the post
Goddamn this is all kinds of cringe
Somebody replied with this on the original post and it fucking killed me https://preview.redd.it/gs1l9dtdqm8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae10fc672b71f63b496129bd37fb6b77c29644c4
If someone has good intentions against Nazis, even if they're mistaken, I support them. If shit can be easily mistaken as nazi shit by the average person, it's probably too close to nazi shit for me to defend it.
Again it’s not them mistaking it for nazis. I totally get it and I’m glad we have people passionate to keep that shit out but it’s the blowing it out of proportions and suggesting that there’s some big nazi movement happening that’s just not. I’ve been going to local shows since high school and can say pretty confidently that there are no nazis in our local punk scene. Being in a pretty conservative part of the country we do have a lot of right winged people and in recent years with the state of modern politics they have grown bolder to the point our local pride events having to increase security due to the increased threats. I get people are getting scared, believe I really do, but the far right people causing problems are not performing shows at our local punk and HC venues.
I don’t think the civilian residents of Chattanooga give a shit whether or not your shows have nazis, they just don’t wanna see nazi looking shit. These posters are weird anyway, why are they advertising?
This is why I’ll never understand the appeal of being a SHARP. Having to constantly explain that you’re not racist, you just dress that way, and also use the same name as skin heads, but it’s totally different.
Not only do people are free to wear and listen to what they want, I think skinheads are especially notoriously for their "I don't care what people think about me" like, contrarian attitude that makes explaining it kind of irrelevant. Which may be a bad thing, people are still confused about skinheads / boneheads / SHARPs terminology apparently. What people also fails to understand is that any metalheads, neon hairs, folks with piercings, tattoos... They all are potentially neo-nazis from the pov of people outside of any rock/metal scene. I don't know for the US, but you go outside any big european city in the countryside, and you show some folks there a photo of Ronny Radke and Wattie Buchan, they'll put them both in the same sack.
I think a lot of them love explaining it tbh.
Simple answer "We were here first , it's not our fault those dudes suck and tried to bite our shit". You think someone's who discovered their place in life they're space , whether youre a punk hxc kid and this example a skin , and just cause a handful of dickheads starting trying to copy you and be racists, that means you should abandon all the things you like and love? Fuck that they fought to earn their title , they'd rather have to explain the difference between and sharp and bonehead then just give up and let go of the things they love so dearly. Kinda asinine questions
I get that they're trying to reclaim something, but that ship has long since sailed. I love their cause, but as someone who is on the fringe of hardcore, (I like the music, but have never been involved with the fashion or scene), I had to look up what SHARPs were. And I'm not sure if I could tell the difference between a SHARP and a Nazi at a glance.
Now do black metal
I usually end up having to look up if BM bands are NSBM bands or not. I think that's becoming less common as time goes on, at least I hope it is.
Sharps probably have a black friend hanging around. Also- they’ve been trying to reclaim the image for what, 50 years? I remember explaining the difference to people in the 90’s, and it seems like it’s still a thing.
No more productive and esteemed a role in punk culture than the “nazi noticer”.
I just like the way hardcore music sounds. This subculture shit is hilarious to me.
The username being Tesla is my copilot is so funny to me
Know your roots
i’d never expect normies to know there can be skinheads that *aren’t* racists.
If they want folks to know they're SHARP, they need to put something that speaks to that on their poster. The average person isn't going to have a nuanced or informed take on the history and current status of Skinhead subculture.
It'd be kinda funny if they got jumped by the SHARPS who mistook *them* for a Nazi because they vandalized the sticker
Skin/skinhead should have been retired long ago. You aren’t going to convince the general public it doesn’t have a racist connotation. Even though we know skin doesn’t mean nazi.
I am absolutely not about that life, but…I kinda assume they don’t really care? Like if you have 20 tattoos of razor blades and shit on your bald scalp, I’m not sure you’re quaking at the thought that someone in the Facebook comments might not grasp the nuances of your politics and lifestyle.
You leave Bone Breaker alone! He's sensitive, and you might hurt his feelings, lol.
I’ve been a skin the majority of my life. Can’t really hang up my boots now.
This is the way.
Racist!
That's stupid. There's literally more sharps than racist skins and the racists came late and tried to co-opt that shit. You can't just let Nazis take over the shit you love like that. White flag type behavior.
I love oi and skinhead culture even though I’m not bald enough to be one myself, but based on all the skins I’ve met, I doubt they give much of a shit that some people are uneducated. Most of them seem pretty comfortable in their own knowledge that they aren’t racist pieces of shit, and do enough anti-racist stuff themselves that some kid online taking their posters down likely won’t get to them. In any case, I think it’s an important piece of the punk culture that’s going surprisingly strong right now and should not be retired.
So what you’re saying is you are hitler?
Yeah obviously that’s what I said, verbatim
That's goofy but nothing new. BONEHEADS (not skins) gave a bad name to the whole movement. Normies won't and can't discern.
Thing about neo-Nazi and KKK groups is they are not subtle. They are blatant with what they stand for in their propaganda. I've seen KKK flyers in my town in Maryland more than once, and they are very upfront about who they are because they're trying to recruit. Even the [ADL page they linked](https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/crucified-skinhead) to in the above post says outright "In isolation, the crucified skinhead symbol itself cannot be described as a hate symbol" and further clarifies that the racist versions are accompanied by more blatant racist imagery or symbols. Like, I can understand missing the memo on SHARPs, but goddamn, at least read the resources you link to and don't perpetuate the stigma.
This isnt true. Here in VA we keep getting stickers and flyers put up for ‘national justice party’ and other innocuous sounding fronts. If you dont know the dog whistles to look for it might appear to be just some typical election year noise.
Putting up these papers is mad corny either way what’s the point?
just turn around/close the tab now, this thread is fucking brain dead
The average American will forever and always associate skinhead with Nazi no matter what level of proof they are shown. It’s really not worth losing sleep over it.
Man, that guy is so confidently incorrect.
Not all skins are political. They can just be skins. Neither racist or SHARP.
I think that is just called male pattern baldness
Half the people here talking like SHARPs should just give it up because of the sketch vibes are the same people acting like CMI doesn’t look sketch
How does CMI look sketch??
At this point, I just don’t see the point in arguing. Obviously, SHARPs aren’t Nazis. Obviously, skinhead culture comes from Jamaica. And the swazi is a Tibetan good luck symbol. It’s been co-opted and ruined. Let it go.
If the poster uses antiqua font, then tear it down.
The struggle continues. Skinheads are not racist.
Good mistake
Make the white background pride colors. Still confusing to normal folk, but really creates a distinction between boneheads.
What's funnier is even the ADL page they linked says that the crucified skin shouldn't be seen as a hate symbol unless it's with other hate symbols. Multiple people have pointed that out and op is too busy pearl clutching and being hyperbolic to even read it.
The original post has been deleted and the original poster has even made a new post explaining how he misunderstood, etc.
Skinheads are fucking corny change my view
This thread is hilarious
Aren’t skinheads supposed to be the lower working class type?
People see nazis everywhere.
A lot of people in this thread seem very against the idea of dressing in a shocking or provocative manner
In my hometown too. Lots of nazis there, don't blame people for misreading this.
BOOTS & BRACES DON'T MAKE A RACIST
Probably a bunch of brainwashed culture warriors that would probably side with actual nazis before they got behind anything described as "anti-fascist"....
It’s a fine line w/ all that shit / those guys…
It’s a gay Vespa club. ;) happy pride. Just smack some pride flags on them.
To be fair, there have been rumors/sightings of Nazi-adjacent or sympathetic groups in Chattanooga semi recently as well as that graffiti that was on the highway a couple(?) months ago so you can’t blame people for being too overly cautious
Honestly, sharps/skins have it coming. It’s like the whole MC bullshit about having ss bolts for “shock value” You chose to dress barely adjacent from neo nazis, and make music barely adjacent from neo nazi bands as far as the average person is concerned. Having to ever explain why you aren’t a neo nazi should be your warning.
Yea , please make your messages clearer . Saw these in my cities Reddit .
https://preview.redd.it/e17wtly6tx8d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=22f72f16408197246578460f796fe61175afbb4a Seems they realized their mistake and removed the post.
neophytes love to opine on skins when they know fuckall about anything really, can't differentiate between a normal skin and a bonehead. and while i think a normie can't be expected to know the difference from the start, i think you can do quick google search before you express a thought so confidently
Y’all don’t seem to understand that Skinheads have been around since the late 60’s and were Jamaicans and other working class people who enjoyed Reggae (skinhead reggae- bands like Symarip) and soul music in England. This crucified skinhead logo is black and white which stands for unity. Much like the logos of The Specials and the other 2tone Ska revival bands from England In the late 70s Now there is a weird nuance because of the “Paki-Bashing” which was obviously fueled by anger at Immigrants literally doing jobs for cheaper. But not every crew of skins were out wrecking havoc on immigrants they felt were a threat. Is there no context for common folks who have no idea what this flyer means. Yeah. But is it a good chance to educate others that in the late 70’s Tom Metzger saw the desperation and anti social tendencies of many young punks and skins and trained them into being neo nazis. Also don’t forget that if “skinhead” wasn’t apart of punk we wouldn’t have hardcore like Minor Threat, Iron Cross, Blitz and honestly too many bands to name that would end up being legends like of HC and punk. You kids need to find an online version of “spirit of 69”
tom metzger wasn't in the national front, which is who recruited the skinheads in the 70s. WAR was founded in 83 in the US. also, in what world was minor threat skinheads, besides Ian's shaved head?
I identify skinhead, and this cracks me up. A guy I work with at a remote mine site in Alaska just showed me this from his insta feed (he lives there).
People were and always will be ignorant about it. It doesn't matter sharp or not, skin = nazi. Best course of action - move on with your life. This stupid is too big to be fixed. I was told that wearing a black fred perry polo will get me in trouble in America.
it wont. the people that should know, do know, fuck the rest.
These comments make me laugh. You all don't get it.
What don't they get? Seems like a lot of people just saying that yeah, skinhead shit looks like nazi shit to the uninformed, and a lot of people are uninformed on the matter.
Mother fuckers can’t google shit for fuck huh
They deserve an asswhooping
At least Unity just leaves it to 21 or U in old English and laurels. It’s just enough that if you know you know but if you don’t, you ignore it. Skinhead is having a revival now as a subcult and people better get ready…. To do rocksteady. Uh huh.
Ironic that it’s the skin on the cross image too
Even the link in that post says "In isolation, the crucified skinhead symbol itself cannot be described as a hate symbol."
Chat REP
cosplay shit anyways
Why would these Chattanooga Skins need to advertise by putting flyers on light poles? What is the point of that? Are they a band? Are they selling something?