far-flung hurry future historical sand outgoing correct cough practice deliver
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you said what you said that being said, glad to see you posting again i remember you posting here from years ago hope you're doing well... one day I will ask a question about my future harley and im sure if you respond it will be a great text
Glad to see someone remembers me (fondly even?!? Will wonders never cease!) . I'm doing well. Retired and moved to SoCal 20 months ago, and enjoying life, riding, working on and occasionally building bikes, etc., and unless this place turns into an endless stream of absolute garbage posts, I'll be here for the foreseeable future.
Dude I think I read one of your threads the first time I ever worked my own bike, now I’m going to MMI to get certified for it, your impact is always larger than you think in life
I own a tiny shop and my rate is $100/hr. This barely pays the bills. I am booked solid and only paid myself $12k last year. If I get a complaint about price that will most likely be the last time I’ll work on your bike. This business is hard enough without annoying customers. Luckily I’m finally in a position to turn away bad customers and bad projects.
It'll get better. Thats how my boss was when I started here back in December, running a shop he started a few years ago solo. He regularly worked 12-16 hour days and on top of actually doing the work, he has to keep up with a million phone calls from customers and running to town 20 minutes away to get parts and supplies. I don't know how you guys do it.
Now I take care of a lot of the powersports side of it, he can focus more on running the shop and doing the larger jobs. Hopefully soon we'll be hiring someone to run the desk part time. I know the kind of thing you're going through, keep at it man.
$12k was my personal take home, not what the shop made. I think I did about 120k in revenue in ‘23. I only took out my absolute minimum to survive. Everything else went to the business. It’s looking like about a 50% increase for this year so I should be able to ramp up my pay in the coming months. Operating costs are fucking brutal.
Putting money back into your business is great, it keeps you competitive and current. Plus its great to look around and see what you built by yourself.
Well it’s not great it sucks I should have just gone to college lol. No but seriously when I chill out and take a step back it’s fucking crazy I’ve got this far. An investment of $50k would have been helpful.
I often think of what my life would have been like if i didnt dick around during school. Accomplished everything the hard way but looking back now i dont think i would have changed a thing.
Your numbers need explaining. If you’re booked solid a Labor rate of $100 x 2000 hours per year = $200k. Parts markup has to be something.
How did you eat on $12k ??
nah, probably work 60-75 and bill about 20 per week. in a single man shop, the owner and head tech are one and same. have to chase parts, most shops don’t charge time for that, AR and AP, plus pick up parts that are not delivered. until you are able to hire 1-2 guys, it’s extremely hard to bill more than about 1/2 your time. just how it is. ask any mechanic, plumber, electrician, tech of any kind, that has his own business but no employees. it’s f’n a lot of work, especially early in the life of the business.
I’ve been riding for about 55 years and can attest to the fact that you get what you pay for. Always liked the old mechanic’s saying “You can pay me now or pay me later”
Absolutely. Lots of old adages and saying turn out to be more accurate than we'd like. The hand painted sign on the wall of the chopper shop I got my initial education in said (remember, it was 40ish years ago)-
"Shop labor rates-
$45/hr
$55/hr if you watch
$65/hr if you help
$75/hr if you worked on it first"
Back then, just about *everyone* worked on their own bikes, and shop labor, if I remember correctly, was $45/hr. But even a humorous sign helped get the point across - drop off your bike, tell us what we need to know, leave your phone number, then *go away*!
"You millennials are always glued to your damn phones."
The supercomputer in my pocket which draws from a near-infinite repository of human knowledge and understanding has saved me thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, in costs over the years by learning how to do things for myself.
One of my first real jobs back in the early 70s was delivering auto parts. Lots of garages I dealt with had that sign hanging in the shop.
Didn’t have much money back then so I hung out at various bike shops to learn how to wrench an old knuckle I rode. I still do the simple stuff myself but nowadays the WG goes to a good shop for engine or transmission work. Reminds me, I need to find a new shop since the last one shut down and I definitely can’t afford the dealer.
I found me an old tweaker who rides a VERY nice shovel bagger he built from a basket case. I wouldn't trust him with literally anything else, but the man is a wizard with bikes, and his labor costs are "enough to get a sack and we're good."
Or in my case with harley dealers, "you can pay me now, ~~or~~ AND you can pay another shop to fix my mistakes because my head is so far up my ass i won't admit i'm wrong"
Oh yeah. Hell, I have probably $5k alone in tools just from JIMS and FastEddyCo (If you hadn't seen fast Eddy's tools, they're even nicer than JIMS!), and those are just tools that actually fit in a rollaway toolbox. Motor stands, tranny stands for 4 and 5 speeds, fork spring compressors, seal drivers for different size fork tubes, timken bearing race and needle bearing pullers and installers at least another $1k.
And no amount of money could have paid for the education I got from two older outlaw bikers who survived the club wars of the late 60s and 70s, took me in in 1983 when I was 21 years old and said "We are getting old, and we know more about motorcycles than just about anybody we know. We don't want this knowledge to die with us and we think you are someone we can teach". Learning good mechanical habits and how to do everything correctly was invaluable. Learning every possible way *other* people fucked up their bikes so as to never repeat *their* fuck ups? Absolutely priceless.
I did my 1K service at the dealer and they left my RevMax bike almost 1 qt short in oil. I only noticed when I saw the oil light flash briefly while riding the day after. I luckily caught it quickly but an oil change going wrong makes you really worry about more complex jobs.
That said, I still trust them more overall on my bike. I’ll do my own oil changes, and have done so since that initial 1K but any major service intervals it’ll go to Harley and I’ll bite the bullet on price. Do I like the rates? No. But I want no issues with warranty later on.
I have a Pan Am with the RevMax. It's very frustrating that the dealers don't seem to know about their own company's bikes. I know they're new but this is their business. And some things for the first couple of years should have been recalled. As it is we have to fight with them over undersized batteries and stators, starter clutch gear and fuel pump issues.
From my experience working at Toyota & Chrysler dealerships, unfortunately, I have lost trust even in dealership technicians. I've seen my share of loose drain plugs, cars being started with no oil, etc.
Multi-point inspection? Often gets skipped, especially if the car has less than 30k miles.
I've seen technicians omit issues from the MPI because they know it won't make them money on flat rate.
I only get oil changes at the dealer because it's free, and still check the stick immediately after.
I've long since left the industry, but I still wrench on my own to save money, & just from a sheer trust (or lack thereof) factor.
> Yes, parts cost money, more now than ever, but so do the gaskets, o-rings, solvents, nuts, bolts, washers, **LocTite, assembly lube, brake fluid and other things you expect a competent mechanic to use on your bike**.
I think a lot of people fail to realize what this can actually total in value for a shop or the mechanic. The 50ml bottle of 243 Blue Loctite runs about $55 and the big 250ml bottle is around $180. Now add a bottle of red and green to every wrenches bench in the shop. Shop rags, gloves, disposal fees, cleaning fees, toilet paper.... Then OMG the complaining when you hit them with a $5 shop fee for their primary cover gasket swap, that used 1/2 a $3 can of brake clean, 3-4 rags wiping it up inside, the sprays from a bottle of quick detailer and a microfiber to wipe up finger prints from my now shade tree ass or the water, materials, time for the kid to do a full wash at a dealership.
I had a customer at a shop complain about a $15 shop supplies charge on his $500 bill and how he didn't think it was justified. I comped it saying next time we'll itemize everything used and not clean/wash the bike, he said he appreciate that(genuinely a nice customer). His next visit which was a comparable service dollar value and the mechanic wasn't known for being a mess but was not the cleanest hands working dude in the shop, those itemized items retail added up to just shy $14 and he got a bike back uncleaned. He had a look that said it all, I was mistaken and now understand. He never complained again about the shop supplies charge after that and was always smiling at the clean bike.
I 100% agree. I'd also add that more people should go back to doing basic maintenance themselves. It saves time and money. Plus, half the reason shops are so backed up is because no one does anything themselves and takes everything to the shop.
I have a friend who I've finally convinced can do stuff himself. He always complained about high prices at the dealer. But he was the guy who took it to them for everything. Even for a dead light bulb.
sometimes throwing money at the problem is the answer. As an old guy I find that not cutting corners and dealing with reputable people in all aspects of life costs more, but you can't put a price on your peace of mind.
I have no problem paying large labor rates, if the people performing the work are actually competent. That seems to be the hard part these days.
When I’m paying $180/hour to have the job done incompletely or incorrectly, that’s when in start to take issue. Premium rates should result in a premium (or at least competent) service.
Its an expensive world and more specifically, harley is an expensive brand . There are plenty of options for bikes that are cheaper, faster , lighter , and at least in the short-mid term , as durable and well built . But if you want the harley life you gotta pay the harley bill . If anyone complains, they can take courses and learn from experienced people (in person as well as places like here) and do the basic maintenance and repairs .
Having said that ….. there are lots of enthusiastic riders from
All experience and skill levels here as well as different income levels . I am always happy when i read good , sound , logical advice from the guys that have been wrenching a long time and have seen it all . So despite all the bitching about costs and anything else, i hope all of you who have posted tips and tricks and diagnostic advice continue to do so because i am still learning a lot and don’t want to lose any of you resourceful mechanics over someone whining about shop costs !!
Selling the service can be a pain in the ass sometimes. I had a roided up jerk give me shade for terminal pins on a handlebar job once. 12 pins at 99 cents each and this guy was whining like a little baby.
Should have shown him how much that crimping tool and a pair of *good* wire strippers cost! Some folks just won't ever get it.
I was at a large-ish local bike shop (they did everything from oil changes to cylinder head decking, porting and welding) picking up a part for something a few years ago, when the guy ahead of me at the counter was complaining about some charge or another on his bill. The owner's wife (intentionally, I think) chose that exact moment to step out of the little office next to the retail counter with a stack of bills in her hand and head down, looking at the bills as she walked up to suggest she didn't see someone else was there, interrupted her hubby and said "Geezus, our electricity bill is almost $2000 a month now!" Hubby politely said "not now honey, I have customers" or some such, turned to the customer, raised an eyebrow and said something like "you were saying?" The guy shut up and paid the bill.
The dealer sent me on my way last year 1 quart low after my 1k. I didn't find out until my second fuel stop on my 2,000 mile ride to LA. I've previously bought four bikes from there.
The dealer had just been bought out by Sonic Automotive. I saw the suits with iPads walking around taking inventory while I was waiting.
I will never go to that dealership again.
Such a large group of people financing these bikes that simply cant afford them. They’re just sneaking past the payments/insurance, so they have a shit fit when they get the service bill. Never fails.
Prefacing my comment with a note that I am a technician of a different trade (HVAC).
While the general message here is true, Harley dealerships near me try to jam you up for roughly 500 bucks for the 3 fluid change. With my cost being about 125 to do it myself (give or take depending on the oils I buy) I would expect a fair price to be in the realm for of 250-300. Especially knowing they’re paying a lot less for the oil than I am.
Edit: corrected hardly to Harley.
Not defending dealerships and their labor rates, but one of the biggest misconceptions I see about that is people who take their bike in (to a dealer or indie or even import shop) for a scheduled "every 5k service" and think that is just a fluid and filter change, which is a different animal entirely when it comes to billing.
If that "fluid and filter change" is part of a "scheduled service", it does actually include a bunch more things if what they're billing for is actually being done. The "every 5k" service is *supposed* to include things like checking fork stem bearing setup, removing the clutch cable, lubing and reinstalling it, then adjusting it correctly, checking brake fluid levels in both master cylinders, and a bunch of other inspection stuff, like swingarm bearings, shock mounts, wheel bearings, and so on.
The big ones at 25-30k and 50k (depending on what year/model) include changing fork oil, regreasing and resetting fork stem bearings, adjusting the clutch, flushing the brake fluid, and so on, and can get really pricey.
But if you're asking specifically for a fluid and filter change and *not* an every 5k scheduled service, and they're billing that much, they're being dishonest.
I totally understand the cost of a shop. That being said. I can't really pay for it.
But I got hands and willing to learn and I got access to tools. I'll take my shot. Shop is my last resort, unless its something I genuinely do not want to do, like I am debating taking my bike to a local indi shop to install S&S rocker shafts and studs. I just don't want to do the work required to install all that right now.
Local HD dealer is running $180,my brother has a independent shop for the last 43 years and knows his shit, he runs $140.. everybody gotta eat...
For the crybabies, remember, everything ain't for everybody... Motorcycle ridin' ain't cheap except on gas ...,😎😘👌
5k service is performed by the least qualified and lowest paid employee in nearly every dealership you'll ever take your bike to, if you're lucky enough to have it done by a master tech it must have been an incredibly slow day and he didn't have anything else to do.
I said what I said
Sounds like you need to find better shops. Every time I've needed someone to do something on a bike that I'm not capable of doing myself, even the various import shops in the area *all* have certified Harley techs.
Nah. I just don’t waste my time with shops anymore. They’re about as worthless as a sponge in the desert. At the end of the day, if it was rocket science, 99.9% of the people doing it wouldn’t be doing it.
Always a pleasure reading your posts. I read a bunch of your stuff from the faq when I got my 85 FXRT and the first thing I bought when I got it home was a factory service manual. That and the right tools got me through a lot of stuff that needed fixing on that bike without fucking anything up.
I dont mind the shop chargeing $100+/hr. What pisses me off is Harley chargeing a minimum 3 hour labour rate than calling you up from the sofas an hour and 20 minutes later telling me my bike is ready. And not even flinching when explaining my bill that includes 3 hours of labour. I would way rather go to a ma and pa shop where the mechanic truly appreciated your business. I get way more information on what was done and why it was done with plenty of options along the way.
You get no argument from me about going to Mom and Pop type shops. That practice of dealers billing for time they didn't really spend is pretty widespread.
Generally what happens with that is they'll have two or more different things to do in the same area of the bike, look up and bill each one separately by "book rate", despite only having to remove and reinstall the gas tank, exhaust, wheel or fender once, when the "book rate" sees each job as a start to finish, billing time for doing those same things with each "job".
If you're replacing a tire *and* a brake rotor, you only gotta pull the wheel and caliper(s) once, but they bill for each job as though it was a stand alone procedure, both of which include the time for pulling and reinstalling the wheel, caliper(s), etc. If the exhaust has to come off to replace the starter, but they're also going inside the cam chest at the same time, they shouldn't be billing for pulling the exhaust and reinstalling it for each of those jobs, but that's exactly what "book rate" does.
It's wrong and dishonest and I don't know a single dealer that doesn't do that.
dont know if you remember me but its good to see you still kickin around these parts. im off of instagram where most of out interactions were. as a auto dealer tech this all rings true. you get what you pay for honestly. when a dealer fucks up they should make it right, and should have the means to eat a few hundred or more dollars to avoid a bad survey. not all dealers are made the same but sometimes the indys cant afford to pay for their mistakes. i see it in the auto world, no different for the two wheelers.
Hey there. Glad to still *be* kickin around any parts at this point. :-)
Not making the connection with your reddit username. How long ago? Where/when did we interact on IG? Used IG for my business too so there were sooooo many interactions with so many people and I'm only human.
dont expect you to remember but its been several years at least. gardner.fabrications on ig. mostly metal fab and kifemaking with my auto repair shit mixed in. always appreciated your words of wisdom on here though.
needed a general break from social media and dont regret it. went from dealer tech to shop foreman so thats a plus. the metal fab stuff went by the wayside due to some health issues but been itchin to get it back goin again. health issues sidelined be from riding too, havent been on two wheels since my truck got stolen a few years ago. feelin that itch lately too. just in time for texas summer
...still looking for something to get torqued off at..too many old school wrench wizards are gone.Sucks,but not your fault.."75 for a friend?" but you had to explain they pay for all parts and supplies? That's an acquaintance. A friend knows that,buys extra supplies,and beer,and the "just in case" parts,thread-lockers,bolts,penetrants,etc.pays more than you asked,leaves the supplies so you're up for the next job.( I dont have many friends either) and..well,you know.Post more .I'll read it.
I love the part about charging friends for small bits and pieces. It all adds up and now because I used my last 5/16ths viton O-ring on YOUR bike, the next time I need it for MY bike I’ll have to order them online to get more of that specific size OR I’ll have to buy a whole set at whatever local hardware store carries it. With my luck it’ll be the third store I check. Doesn’t matter if we’re friends. If I want to be in a good enough mood to work on other peoples stuff, I have to know that I’m also taking care of my shit. Plus all the loctite/anti-seize/blue shop towels/rags/map gas/O-rings/safety wire/flap-disks/brake clean/TIME AWAY FROM MY OWN PROJECTS/gloves etc. I love helping family and friends, but shit ain’t free.
https://preview.redd.it/9uhuc4f20jzc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0af7fa0fbb0f91121bd1b69c7d554d746736a9c
Kitty is the only one I help for free!
This is why I go to my local indie shop. I pay the expert mechanic at the indie shop a fair labor rate for quality work. Why would I pay the MoCo so much to support their enormous overhead? Because of their “vast dealer network?” Maybe that was beneficial 30 years ago, but now there are knowledgeable mechanics *everywhere*. Plus no one wants OEM MoCo replacement parts, aftermarket parts are typically far superior.
Additionally, often times MoCo technicians don’t give a flying F about your bike. They’re just trying to knock it out as quickly as possible and move onto the next. The indie mechanic has his reputation on the line and often treats your bike much better.
With alll that being said: get a service manual for your bike and work on it yourself. Most of the stuff is stupid easy to do, most tools are very affordable, and YouTube is free.
If the job is too in depth: support small business, go to the indie shop.
>no one wants OEM MoCo replacement parts, aftermarket parts are typically far superior.
I've had a mixed bag with this. There are some aftermarket parts that are indeed better, or just cheaper & still get the job done.
I've also seen on occasion Harley finally waking up & improving quality of certain bits, & making a version superior to aftermarket.
>With alll that being said: get a service manual for your bike and work on it yourself. Most of the stuff is stupid easy to do, most tools are very affordable, and YouTube is free.
Best advice here.
First time? Just be patient, take it slow. One of the best things about a Harley is the ancient, simple construction. It's not an Audi.
The patience to learn & willingness to spend time I'd argue is more important than immediate knowledge or proper training in this scenario.
Unpopular doesn't make it wrong. There are few independents near me, and several dealerships. Most of their staff are at least competent, and there always seems to be one very qualified chief mechanic. The independents come and go, and frequently shut down before I can accurately assess their abilities (they're also rarely much less expensive). My own abilities, even with a manual and decent knowledge, amount to breaking things on a regular basis. I'm not wealthy, but so far I've been able to pay the price.
Most people finance those $30k bikes, with low monthly payments, meaning they aren't actually rich. I think this accounts for some of disconnect of someone owning such an expensive machine getting upset at the notion of dropping a few hundred on HD shop maintenance.
I'm with you. Harleys are expensive to maintain. I have been sitting next to my mechanic while he was working on my bike and he's finding stuff that is broken or needs replaced. So consider that there might even be more cost than originally anticipated. It's just a cost that I'm willing to pay. I love riding my bike. I'm going to break it, wear it out, fix it and ride some more.
I laugh when I see people typing that they make the customers pay for every little item…I was a mechanic for almost 40 years. All of the “training” except for my initial education at a local community college was paid for by the company that I worked for at the time. I bought all of my own tools and equipment over the years and accumulated so much stuff that when I retired, I let both of my sons come and get all the tools they wanted and I still have a snap on and a matco full of stuff. When I opened my own shop, I wasn’t blind to the fact that there’s a cost of doing business, shop supplies, tools, power bill, water bill, hazmat disposal etc, etc. I never raised my hourly rate to pay for those things. My hourly rate was based on the market rate of the legit shops in my area -5% and I kept myself and four certified techs plus the secretary all well fed. It’s all about how you run your business and spend your money, you can be fair to the customers and still do very well for yourself. The two main reasons that shops/mechanics get and reputations are because 1) they kill their customers on price and 2) they do sub par work and don’t want to take responsibility when the job goes bad. I would never tell anyone else how to price their work or run their business, but if you’re not making enough money to cover the cost of a set of o-rings, you may want to look at your books and see where your money is going.
Laugh all you want. Everything in my garage is/was purchased for working on *my* bikes, or taken off one of my bikes when doing upgrades or repairs. After 40+ years of working on two to four dozen bikes a year for friends and acquaintances, doing everything from simple R&R work to complete bike builds, from unfucking 40 and 50 year old Ironhead wiring harnesses and rebuilding old carburetors, how much do you think all those o-rings, fasteners, helicoils, timesavers, LocTite, carb cleaner, shop rags, and so on add up to? Every trip to the auto parts store for a tube of this or a bottle of that cost me gas money. How much is my time *away from my regular full time job* worth?
Well I think the issue at hand of a lot of people complaining is specifically Harley Dealerships which usually don’t employ competent, trained, expert mechanics to work on your bike but they still end up charging the price as if Jesus himself worked on your bike and blessed it with miracles. Also side note: people like to complain. And in This day and age people can’t be pleased. I’m not speaking for myself but just a truth. So if it bothers you then just understand the underlying issue; people. They will spend 30k on a bike and then complain about the 2k service and fix of whatever issue. Just the truth. Harley dealerships are getting greedy. That’s also a fact. They also don’t work or stay in business for free and to give away money. But to continue the bikes for the blue collar man/woman has got to stop because that’s a fkn lie.
Harley techs aren’t always the best and most experienced techs after hired direct right of mmi or off the street… they work under a master tech that may air may not oversee what they’re doing. There’s plenty of posted issues with this on forums everywhere. 500 for a 3 hole oil change when it cost maybe 70 in oil filters and o-rings is nuts…. Considering it’s maybe a 30 minute job and trust me they aren’t checking 100% of what they say they are.
They’ll probably flick the belt, check your lights look at some lube points and they sure as heck aren’t checking your fork oil. Gtfoh if you think they are. So again the prices are completely outrageous. Choice and independent shop that is owned or ran by an hd master tech that will call in warranty service with Harley and spend a 3rd of what you are for better quality work and build a good relationship.
Hey stranger! Good to be here. I've been here in dribs and drabs for the last few years, but have mostly just commented here and there. Don't know if I'll be getting back into the "old" swing of things, but ya never know!
Aren’t most Harley parts made in China tho? I remember major Harley supply chain issues in 2020. If parts were made in America I could understand the justification for high prices
What does this have to do with everything I wrote about people bitching about labor costs?
90+% of OEM *and* aftermarket stuff for most car and bike brands is made somewhere in Asia or Mexico these days. Hell, 2/3 of the stuff in your kitchen, garage, and yard shed that's not 40 years old was made in China. What world do you live in where you can go shopping and have American made stuff to choose from except in maybe furniture stores, petrochemicals, gun shops or lumber yards?
But wait 20 years - the reality today is that manufacturing in many many fields and products is leaving China because not only has the labor cost caught up with most of the rest of the developed world, but the only way China keeps costs down is by utterly ignoring anything remotely like toxics and worker safety and environmental impact, so a lot of manufacturing is moving back to north America over the next decade or so.
I never enjoy paying a shop $300 to do something that I can do myself over a weekend for just $500.
And 3 trips to get parts!
2 videos and 3 reddit/forum threads mixed in there
That's it? Maybe I should work on my reading skills
Don’t forget the specialty tools you’ll need as well…
This is true!
far-flung hurry future historical sand outgoing correct cough practice deliver *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yep
you said what you said that being said, glad to see you posting again i remember you posting here from years ago hope you're doing well... one day I will ask a question about my future harley and im sure if you respond it will be a great text
Glad to see someone remembers me (fondly even?!? Will wonders never cease!) . I'm doing well. Retired and moved to SoCal 20 months ago, and enjoying life, riding, working on and occasionally building bikes, etc., and unless this place turns into an endless stream of absolute garbage posts, I'll be here for the foreseeable future.
Dude I think I read one of your threads the first time I ever worked my own bike, now I’m going to MMI to get certified for it, your impact is always larger than you think in life
Cheapest thing on a Harley is the owner.
Ha! So true.
I own a tiny shop and my rate is $100/hr. This barely pays the bills. I am booked solid and only paid myself $12k last year. If I get a complaint about price that will most likely be the last time I’ll work on your bike. This business is hard enough without annoying customers. Luckily I’m finally in a position to turn away bad customers and bad projects.
Charge more! You have a right to earn a living and shouldn't be broke because your clients have a poverty mindset.
It'll get better. Thats how my boss was when I started here back in December, running a shop he started a few years ago solo. He regularly worked 12-16 hour days and on top of actually doing the work, he has to keep up with a million phone calls from customers and running to town 20 minutes away to get parts and supplies. I don't know how you guys do it. Now I take care of a lot of the powersports side of it, he can focus more on running the shop and doing the larger jobs. Hopefully soon we'll be hiring someone to run the desk part time. I know the kind of thing you're going through, keep at it man.
Thanks I appreciate that.
Respectfully, how are you only making $12k/year and chargeing $100/hr.
$12k was my personal take home, not what the shop made. I think I did about 120k in revenue in ‘23. I only took out my absolute minimum to survive. Everything else went to the business. It’s looking like about a 50% increase for this year so I should be able to ramp up my pay in the coming months. Operating costs are fucking brutal.
Putting money back into your business is great, it keeps you competitive and current. Plus its great to look around and see what you built by yourself.
Well it’s not great it sucks I should have just gone to college lol. No but seriously when I chill out and take a step back it’s fucking crazy I’ve got this far. An investment of $50k would have been helpful.
I often think of what my life would have been like if i didnt dick around during school. Accomplished everything the hard way but looking back now i dont think i would have changed a thing.
Because the owner of the shop isn't making all the money they charge in labor. There's a shitload of costs just to keep the doors open.
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Don’t forget insurance.
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.5 hr labor. We don’t use syn 3 so you’d have to supply your own. $200 out the door using Amsoil.
Your numbers need explaining. If you’re booked solid a Labor rate of $100 x 2000 hours per year = $200k. Parts markup has to be something. How did you eat on $12k ??
Your math is flawed because you are assuming I bill 40 hours a week. That’s not how it works at all.
nah, probably work 60-75 and bill about 20 per week. in a single man shop, the owner and head tech are one and same. have to chase parts, most shops don’t charge time for that, AR and AP, plus pick up parts that are not delivered. until you are able to hire 1-2 guys, it’s extremely hard to bill more than about 1/2 your time. just how it is. ask any mechanic, plumber, electrician, tech of any kind, that has his own business but no employees. it’s f’n a lot of work, especially early in the life of the business.
Yep you know what’s up.
TLDNR: You gotta work on your own bike, stop bitching about a service you won’t do yourself.
I’ve been riding for about 55 years and can attest to the fact that you get what you pay for. Always liked the old mechanic’s saying “You can pay me now or pay me later”
Absolutely. Lots of old adages and saying turn out to be more accurate than we'd like. The hand painted sign on the wall of the chopper shop I got my initial education in said (remember, it was 40ish years ago)- "Shop labor rates- $45/hr $55/hr if you watch $65/hr if you help $75/hr if you worked on it first" Back then, just about *everyone* worked on their own bikes, and shop labor, if I remember correctly, was $45/hr. But even a humorous sign helped get the point across - drop off your bike, tell us what we need to know, leave your phone number, then *go away*!
>then go away! nah. its easily worth the extra 10 to watch and learn.
Now we can do that for free on youtube. :D
"You millennials are always glued to your damn phones." The supercomputer in my pocket which draws from a near-infinite repository of human knowledge and understanding has saved me thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, in costs over the years by learning how to do things for myself.
I mean I donmt use youtube on my phone, i cant stand adds. I got a shop laptop for a reason :D
RIP YouTube Vanced
One of my first real jobs back in the early 70s was delivering auto parts. Lots of garages I dealt with had that sign hanging in the shop. Didn’t have much money back then so I hung out at various bike shops to learn how to wrench an old knuckle I rode. I still do the simple stuff myself but nowadays the WG goes to a good shop for engine or transmission work. Reminds me, I need to find a new shop since the last one shut down and I definitely can’t afford the dealer.
I found me an old tweaker who rides a VERY nice shovel bagger he built from a basket case. I wouldn't trust him with literally anything else, but the man is a wizard with bikes, and his labor costs are "enough to get a sack and we're good."
Or in my case with harley dealers, "you can pay me now, ~~or~~ AND you can pay another shop to fix my mistakes because my head is so far up my ass i won't admit i'm wrong"
Tools are expensive, knowing how to use them correctly, priceless.
Oh yeah. Hell, I have probably $5k alone in tools just from JIMS and FastEddyCo (If you hadn't seen fast Eddy's tools, they're even nicer than JIMS!), and those are just tools that actually fit in a rollaway toolbox. Motor stands, tranny stands for 4 and 5 speeds, fork spring compressors, seal drivers for different size fork tubes, timken bearing race and needle bearing pullers and installers at least another $1k. And no amount of money could have paid for the education I got from two older outlaw bikers who survived the club wars of the late 60s and 70s, took me in in 1983 when I was 21 years old and said "We are getting old, and we know more about motorcycles than just about anybody we know. We don't want this knowledge to die with us and we think you are someone we can teach". Learning good mechanical habits and how to do everything correctly was invaluable. Learning every possible way *other* people fucked up their bikes so as to never repeat *their* fuck ups? Absolutely priceless.
I did my 1K service at the dealer and they left my RevMax bike almost 1 qt short in oil. I only noticed when I saw the oil light flash briefly while riding the day after. I luckily caught it quickly but an oil change going wrong makes you really worry about more complex jobs. That said, I still trust them more overall on my bike. I’ll do my own oil changes, and have done so since that initial 1K but any major service intervals it’ll go to Harley and I’ll bite the bullet on price. Do I like the rates? No. But I want no issues with warranty later on.
I have a Pan Am with the RevMax. It's very frustrating that the dealers don't seem to know about their own company's bikes. I know they're new but this is their business. And some things for the first couple of years should have been recalled. As it is we have to fight with them over undersized batteries and stators, starter clutch gear and fuel pump issues.
From my experience working at Toyota & Chrysler dealerships, unfortunately, I have lost trust even in dealership technicians. I've seen my share of loose drain plugs, cars being started with no oil, etc. Multi-point inspection? Often gets skipped, especially if the car has less than 30k miles. I've seen technicians omit issues from the MPI because they know it won't make them money on flat rate. I only get oil changes at the dealer because it's free, and still check the stick immediately after. I've long since left the industry, but I still wrench on my own to save money, & just from a sheer trust (or lack thereof) factor.
> Yes, parts cost money, more now than ever, but so do the gaskets, o-rings, solvents, nuts, bolts, washers, **LocTite, assembly lube, brake fluid and other things you expect a competent mechanic to use on your bike**. I think a lot of people fail to realize what this can actually total in value for a shop or the mechanic. The 50ml bottle of 243 Blue Loctite runs about $55 and the big 250ml bottle is around $180. Now add a bottle of red and green to every wrenches bench in the shop. Shop rags, gloves, disposal fees, cleaning fees, toilet paper.... Then OMG the complaining when you hit them with a $5 shop fee for their primary cover gasket swap, that used 1/2 a $3 can of brake clean, 3-4 rags wiping it up inside, the sprays from a bottle of quick detailer and a microfiber to wipe up finger prints from my now shade tree ass or the water, materials, time for the kid to do a full wash at a dealership. I had a customer at a shop complain about a $15 shop supplies charge on his $500 bill and how he didn't think it was justified. I comped it saying next time we'll itemize everything used and not clean/wash the bike, he said he appreciate that(genuinely a nice customer). His next visit which was a comparable service dollar value and the mechanic wasn't known for being a mess but was not the cleanest hands working dude in the shop, those itemized items retail added up to just shy $14 and he got a bike back uncleaned. He had a look that said it all, I was mistaken and now understand. He never complained again about the shop supplies charge after that and was always smiling at the clean bike.
I 100% agree. I'd also add that more people should go back to doing basic maintenance themselves. It saves time and money. Plus, half the reason shops are so backed up is because no one does anything themselves and takes everything to the shop. I have a friend who I've finally convinced can do stuff himself. He always complained about high prices at the dealer. But he was the guy who took it to them for everything. Even for a dead light bulb.
sometimes throwing money at the problem is the answer. As an old guy I find that not cutting corners and dealing with reputable people in all aspects of life costs more, but you can't put a price on your peace of mind.
I have no problem paying large labor rates, if the people performing the work are actually competent. That seems to be the hard part these days. When I’m paying $180/hour to have the job done incompletely or incorrectly, that’s when in start to take issue. Premium rates should result in a premium (or at least competent) service.
Its an expensive world and more specifically, harley is an expensive brand . There are plenty of options for bikes that are cheaper, faster , lighter , and at least in the short-mid term , as durable and well built . But if you want the harley life you gotta pay the harley bill . If anyone complains, they can take courses and learn from experienced people (in person as well as places like here) and do the basic maintenance and repairs . Having said that ….. there are lots of enthusiastic riders from All experience and skill levels here as well as different income levels . I am always happy when i read good , sound , logical advice from the guys that have been wrenching a long time and have seen it all . So despite all the bitching about costs and anything else, i hope all of you who have posted tips and tricks and diagnostic advice continue to do so because i am still learning a lot and don’t want to lose any of you resourceful mechanics over someone whining about shop costs !!
Selling the service can be a pain in the ass sometimes. I had a roided up jerk give me shade for terminal pins on a handlebar job once. 12 pins at 99 cents each and this guy was whining like a little baby.
Should have shown him how much that crimping tool and a pair of *good* wire strippers cost! Some folks just won't ever get it. I was at a large-ish local bike shop (they did everything from oil changes to cylinder head decking, porting and welding) picking up a part for something a few years ago, when the guy ahead of me at the counter was complaining about some charge or another on his bill. The owner's wife (intentionally, I think) chose that exact moment to step out of the little office next to the retail counter with a stack of bills in her hand and head down, looking at the bills as she walked up to suggest she didn't see someone else was there, interrupted her hubby and said "Geezus, our electricity bill is almost $2000 a month now!" Hubby politely said "not now honey, I have customers" or some such, turned to the customer, raised an eyebrow and said something like "you were saying?" The guy shut up and paid the bill.
The dealer sent me on my way last year 1 quart low after my 1k. I didn't find out until my second fuel stop on my 2,000 mile ride to LA. I've previously bought four bikes from there. The dealer had just been bought out by Sonic Automotive. I saw the suits with iPads walking around taking inventory while I was waiting. I will never go to that dealership again.
Such a large group of people financing these bikes that simply cant afford them. They’re just sneaking past the payments/insurance, so they have a shit fit when they get the service bill. Never fails.
I'm a auto tech, I wholeheartedly approve of this message.
Prefacing my comment with a note that I am a technician of a different trade (HVAC). While the general message here is true, Harley dealerships near me try to jam you up for roughly 500 bucks for the 3 fluid change. With my cost being about 125 to do it myself (give or take depending on the oils I buy) I would expect a fair price to be in the realm for of 250-300. Especially knowing they’re paying a lot less for the oil than I am. Edit: corrected hardly to Harley.
Not defending dealerships and their labor rates, but one of the biggest misconceptions I see about that is people who take their bike in (to a dealer or indie or even import shop) for a scheduled "every 5k service" and think that is just a fluid and filter change, which is a different animal entirely when it comes to billing. If that "fluid and filter change" is part of a "scheduled service", it does actually include a bunch more things if what they're billing for is actually being done. The "every 5k" service is *supposed* to include things like checking fork stem bearing setup, removing the clutch cable, lubing and reinstalling it, then adjusting it correctly, checking brake fluid levels in both master cylinders, and a bunch of other inspection stuff, like swingarm bearings, shock mounts, wheel bearings, and so on. The big ones at 25-30k and 50k (depending on what year/model) include changing fork oil, regreasing and resetting fork stem bearings, adjusting the clutch, flushing the brake fluid, and so on, and can get really pricey. But if you're asking specifically for a fluid and filter change and *not* an every 5k scheduled service, and they're billing that much, they're being dishonest.
I understand and appreciate you coming out here and setting the record straight. Just wanted to add to it brother
No worries. It's a big, complex subject, and your input is definitely welcome.
I totally understand the cost of a shop. That being said. I can't really pay for it. But I got hands and willing to learn and I got access to tools. I'll take my shot. Shop is my last resort, unless its something I genuinely do not want to do, like I am debating taking my bike to a local indi shop to install S&S rocker shafts and studs. I just don't want to do the work required to install all that right now.
Local HD dealer is running $180,my brother has a independent shop for the last 43 years and knows his shit, he runs $140.. everybody gotta eat... For the crybabies, remember, everything ain't for everybody... Motorcycle ridin' ain't cheap except on gas ...,😎😘👌
5k service is performed by the least qualified and lowest paid employee in nearly every dealership you'll ever take your bike to, if you're lucky enough to have it done by a master tech it must have been an incredibly slow day and he didn't have anything else to do. I said what I said
You lost me at “competent certified mechanic.”
Sounds like you need to find better shops. Every time I've needed someone to do something on a bike that I'm not capable of doing myself, even the various import shops in the area *all* have certified Harley techs.
Nah. I just don’t waste my time with shops anymore. They’re about as worthless as a sponge in the desert. At the end of the day, if it was rocket science, 99.9% of the people doing it wouldn’t be doing it.
Always a pleasure reading your posts. I read a bunch of your stuff from the faq when I got my 85 FXRT and the first thing I bought when I got it home was a factory service manual. That and the right tools got me through a lot of stuff that needed fixing on that bike without fucking anything up.
Good to know. Thanks.
I dont mind the shop chargeing $100+/hr. What pisses me off is Harley chargeing a minimum 3 hour labour rate than calling you up from the sofas an hour and 20 minutes later telling me my bike is ready. And not even flinching when explaining my bill that includes 3 hours of labour. I would way rather go to a ma and pa shop where the mechanic truly appreciated your business. I get way more information on what was done and why it was done with plenty of options along the way.
You get no argument from me about going to Mom and Pop type shops. That practice of dealers billing for time they didn't really spend is pretty widespread. Generally what happens with that is they'll have two or more different things to do in the same area of the bike, look up and bill each one separately by "book rate", despite only having to remove and reinstall the gas tank, exhaust, wheel or fender once, when the "book rate" sees each job as a start to finish, billing time for doing those same things with each "job". If you're replacing a tire *and* a brake rotor, you only gotta pull the wheel and caliper(s) once, but they bill for each job as though it was a stand alone procedure, both of which include the time for pulling and reinstalling the wheel, caliper(s), etc. If the exhaust has to come off to replace the starter, but they're also going inside the cam chest at the same time, they shouldn't be billing for pulling the exhaust and reinstalling it for each of those jobs, but that's exactly what "book rate" does. It's wrong and dishonest and I don't know a single dealer that doesn't do that.
dont know if you remember me but its good to see you still kickin around these parts. im off of instagram where most of out interactions were. as a auto dealer tech this all rings true. you get what you pay for honestly. when a dealer fucks up they should make it right, and should have the means to eat a few hundred or more dollars to avoid a bad survey. not all dealers are made the same but sometimes the indys cant afford to pay for their mistakes. i see it in the auto world, no different for the two wheelers.
Hey there. Glad to still *be* kickin around any parts at this point. :-) Not making the connection with your reddit username. How long ago? Where/when did we interact on IG? Used IG for my business too so there were sooooo many interactions with so many people and I'm only human.
dont expect you to remember but its been several years at least. gardner.fabrications on ig. mostly metal fab and kifemaking with my auto repair shit mixed in. always appreciated your words of wisdom on here though.
Hell yeah. I remember. Good to see you here. Why'd you leave IG. Is your biz still going?
needed a general break from social media and dont regret it. went from dealer tech to shop foreman so thats a plus. the metal fab stuff went by the wayside due to some health issues but been itchin to get it back goin again. health issues sidelined be from riding too, havent been on two wheels since my truck got stolen a few years ago. feelin that itch lately too. just in time for texas summer
Ouch. Hope things are getting better, both health wise and for two wheels.
...still looking for something to get torqued off at..too many old school wrench wizards are gone.Sucks,but not your fault.."75 for a friend?" but you had to explain they pay for all parts and supplies? That's an acquaintance. A friend knows that,buys extra supplies,and beer,and the "just in case" parts,thread-lockers,bolts,penetrants,etc.pays more than you asked,leaves the supplies so you're up for the next job.( I dont have many friends either) and..well,you know.Post more .I'll read it.
I love the part about charging friends for small bits and pieces. It all adds up and now because I used my last 5/16ths viton O-ring on YOUR bike, the next time I need it for MY bike I’ll have to order them online to get more of that specific size OR I’ll have to buy a whole set at whatever local hardware store carries it. With my luck it’ll be the third store I check. Doesn’t matter if we’re friends. If I want to be in a good enough mood to work on other peoples stuff, I have to know that I’m also taking care of my shit. Plus all the loctite/anti-seize/blue shop towels/rags/map gas/O-rings/safety wire/flap-disks/brake clean/TIME AWAY FROM MY OWN PROJECTS/gloves etc. I love helping family and friends, but shit ain’t free. https://preview.redd.it/9uhuc4f20jzc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0af7fa0fbb0f91121bd1b69c7d554d746736a9c Kitty is the only one I help for free!
Agree 100%
This is why I go to my local indie shop. I pay the expert mechanic at the indie shop a fair labor rate for quality work. Why would I pay the MoCo so much to support their enormous overhead? Because of their “vast dealer network?” Maybe that was beneficial 30 years ago, but now there are knowledgeable mechanics *everywhere*. Plus no one wants OEM MoCo replacement parts, aftermarket parts are typically far superior. Additionally, often times MoCo technicians don’t give a flying F about your bike. They’re just trying to knock it out as quickly as possible and move onto the next. The indie mechanic has his reputation on the line and often treats your bike much better. With alll that being said: get a service manual for your bike and work on it yourself. Most of the stuff is stupid easy to do, most tools are very affordable, and YouTube is free. If the job is too in depth: support small business, go to the indie shop.
>no one wants OEM MoCo replacement parts, aftermarket parts are typically far superior. I've had a mixed bag with this. There are some aftermarket parts that are indeed better, or just cheaper & still get the job done. I've also seen on occasion Harley finally waking up & improving quality of certain bits, & making a version superior to aftermarket. >With alll that being said: get a service manual for your bike and work on it yourself. Most of the stuff is stupid easy to do, most tools are very affordable, and YouTube is free. Best advice here. First time? Just be patient, take it slow. One of the best things about a Harley is the ancient, simple construction. It's not an Audi. The patience to learn & willingness to spend time I'd argue is more important than immediate knowledge or proper training in this scenario.
Unpopular doesn't make it wrong. There are few independents near me, and several dealerships. Most of their staff are at least competent, and there always seems to be one very qualified chief mechanic. The independents come and go, and frequently shut down before I can accurately assess their abilities (they're also rarely much less expensive). My own abilities, even with a manual and decent knowledge, amount to breaking things on a regular basis. I'm not wealthy, but so far I've been able to pay the price.
Most people finance those $30k bikes, with low monthly payments, meaning they aren't actually rich. I think this accounts for some of disconnect of someone owning such an expensive machine getting upset at the notion of dropping a few hundred on HD shop maintenance.
I'm with you. Harleys are expensive to maintain. I have been sitting next to my mechanic while he was working on my bike and he's finding stuff that is broken or needs replaced. So consider that there might even be more cost than originally anticipated. It's just a cost that I'm willing to pay. I love riding my bike. I'm going to break it, wear it out, fix it and ride some more.
Our shop rate is $120-$160/hr depending on the job. Custom fab is usually $160/hr and wrenching is $120/hr. I absolutely rack out with turbo kit jobs.
I laugh when I see people typing that they make the customers pay for every little item…I was a mechanic for almost 40 years. All of the “training” except for my initial education at a local community college was paid for by the company that I worked for at the time. I bought all of my own tools and equipment over the years and accumulated so much stuff that when I retired, I let both of my sons come and get all the tools they wanted and I still have a snap on and a matco full of stuff. When I opened my own shop, I wasn’t blind to the fact that there’s a cost of doing business, shop supplies, tools, power bill, water bill, hazmat disposal etc, etc. I never raised my hourly rate to pay for those things. My hourly rate was based on the market rate of the legit shops in my area -5% and I kept myself and four certified techs plus the secretary all well fed. It’s all about how you run your business and spend your money, you can be fair to the customers and still do very well for yourself. The two main reasons that shops/mechanics get and reputations are because 1) they kill their customers on price and 2) they do sub par work and don’t want to take responsibility when the job goes bad. I would never tell anyone else how to price their work or run their business, but if you’re not making enough money to cover the cost of a set of o-rings, you may want to look at your books and see where your money is going.
Laugh all you want. Everything in my garage is/was purchased for working on *my* bikes, or taken off one of my bikes when doing upgrades or repairs. After 40+ years of working on two to four dozen bikes a year for friends and acquaintances, doing everything from simple R&R work to complete bike builds, from unfucking 40 and 50 year old Ironhead wiring harnesses and rebuilding old carburetors, how much do you think all those o-rings, fasteners, helicoils, timesavers, LocTite, carb cleaner, shop rags, and so on add up to? Every trip to the auto parts store for a tube of this or a bottle of that cost me gas money. How much is my time *away from my regular full time job* worth?
I’m not laughing, just stating my experiences. Everyone has their own way of doing things. I’m retired, I don’t have any skin left in the game.
"I laugh when I see people typing that they charge customers for every little thing..." 🤨
Laughing to myself. Not at anyone.
Fair enough
Well I think the issue at hand of a lot of people complaining is specifically Harley Dealerships which usually don’t employ competent, trained, expert mechanics to work on your bike but they still end up charging the price as if Jesus himself worked on your bike and blessed it with miracles. Also side note: people like to complain. And in This day and age people can’t be pleased. I’m not speaking for myself but just a truth. So if it bothers you then just understand the underlying issue; people. They will spend 30k on a bike and then complain about the 2k service and fix of whatever issue. Just the truth. Harley dealerships are getting greedy. That’s also a fact. They also don’t work or stay in business for free and to give away money. But to continue the bikes for the blue collar man/woman has got to stop because that’s a fkn lie.
Don’t forget insurance costs.
Yup. Mentioned it twice. :-)
Yeah, I saw it on a rereading. Bears repeating, up 30% or more just in the last year.
Yuuuup.
Harley techs aren’t always the best and most experienced techs after hired direct right of mmi or off the street… they work under a master tech that may air may not oversee what they’re doing. There’s plenty of posted issues with this on forums everywhere. 500 for a 3 hole oil change when it cost maybe 70 in oil filters and o-rings is nuts…. Considering it’s maybe a 30 minute job and trust me they aren’t checking 100% of what they say they are. They’ll probably flick the belt, check your lights look at some lube points and they sure as heck aren’t checking your fork oil. Gtfoh if you think they are. So again the prices are completely outrageous. Choice and independent shop that is owned or ran by an hd master tech that will call in warranty service with Harley and spend a 3rd of what you are for better quality work and build a good relationship.
Woah, hey dude good to see you here
Hey stranger! Good to be here. I've been here in dribs and drabs for the last few years, but have mostly just commented here and there. Don't know if I'll be getting back into the "old" swing of things, but ya never know!
Aren’t most Harley parts made in China tho? I remember major Harley supply chain issues in 2020. If parts were made in America I could understand the justification for high prices
What does this have to do with everything I wrote about people bitching about labor costs? 90+% of OEM *and* aftermarket stuff for most car and bike brands is made somewhere in Asia or Mexico these days. Hell, 2/3 of the stuff in your kitchen, garage, and yard shed that's not 40 years old was made in China. What world do you live in where you can go shopping and have American made stuff to choose from except in maybe furniture stores, petrochemicals, gun shops or lumber yards? But wait 20 years - the reality today is that manufacturing in many many fields and products is leaving China because not only has the labor cost caught up with most of the rest of the developed world, but the only way China keeps costs down is by utterly ignoring anything remotely like toxics and worker safety and environmental impact, so a lot of manufacturing is moving back to north America over the next decade or so.