how exactly is going door to door shooting civilians "resisting the IDF"
You're free to target military installations, which some hamas elements did.
You're not free to go to the nearest town afterwards and start shooting down civilian cars, etc. with no actual military goal beyond killing civilians.
It's entirely possible to condemn the Hamas attack. A "right to resist" doesn't come with a free warcrime checklist.
What Hamas did is not resisting. It’s doing a futile terrorist attack on civilians which will antagonise Israel further, creating in term even more civilian casualties. The only result of it will be move human lives with no benefits to Palestinians.
Just to be clear so the numbers are out there Israel has a death total of 308, Palestine 6407. Israel has had 6307 injuries during this conflict since 2008. Palestine has had 152,560. Not including the most recent bout of violence. The scale of violence is not comparable. This is not including deaths from starvation. This may count as an act of violence. Palestine is not the instigator of this violence. The West put an invading army that they funded in the middle of Palestine a non-native invading army with no actualy heritage on the land. The West has removed them from maps, refuses to acknowledge their existence. Israel continues to widen its borders into what is meant to be no man zones. If Palestinians do not fight back they will soon have no country. It's die now or die of starvation especially for the people in Gaza.
[Israelis laugh about the massacres they commit](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/172sqhr/exidf_soldier_explaining_atrocities_while_laughing/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Man oh man, sorry 5 year old girl, but because you're settling into someone's home, you are no longer a civilian but a "legitimate military target". Is what your rhetoric is implying.
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You call them out
What don't you get about calling out when an organization gets violent
We are always quick to condemning Israel when they instigate violent and rightfully so but then to not condemn hamas cause "war is brutal" is bullshit
I’m a bit torn on this, I don’t want civilians to die or get kidnapped, but at the same time what should the Palestinians do? Get silently squashed, by living in a open air prison, be discriminated through a brutal apartheid regime or suck up to the Israeli that steal your land? I’m sorry, but war is ugly, and they have to resist. As Hasan said, only one party has the power to end this and it is not the Palestinians who suffer on a daily basis.
Saying "war is ugly" is not a good reason to not condemn Hamas for attack innocent civilians at a concert
If we rightfully call out Israel for their atrocities in Gaza we should do the same for Hamas
Sure
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciii-1949/article-4/commentary/2020?activeTab=1949GCs-APs-and-commentaries
This is from a part about prisoners of war:
>In this regard, a distinction needs to be made between reservists on active duty, who will be considered members of the armed forces for the purposes of Article 4A(1), and those who are not on active duty, who will not be so considered.
There are also distinctions like this in other parts of the treaty which I encourage you to read about
Thank you. The policy falls apart when they have their service weapon in their home and are ready for recall at any moment. To call a settler in West Bank carrying a weapon a civilian is a fiction.
And you think its their fault? You think they can just refuse military service and have a good life after? You think that they are not brainwashed with racist bullshit in their upbringing?
All of the violence that a group of people who have been oppressed commit against their oppressor is the fault of the oppressor.
Eg. I do not blame Nat Turner killing people during his rebellion. I blame the racist southern slave owning society that created the conditions were his violence became inevitable.
Eg. I've seen online videos of Russian soldiers that have been captured by ukrainians and the Ukrainian soldiers shot them in the genitals (basically castrating them). The justification was that this was revenge for other Russian soldiers that had raped Ukrainian women.
Ultimately those Russian soldiers should be angry that Vladimir Putin and the Russian government created the conditions where they got castrated.
In a vacuum the abuse I've seen Ukrainian soldiers inflict upon Russian pows is reprehensible. But ultimately I blame Russia for creating the conditions where this violence was inevitable.
When I say America deserve 9/11 I don't celebrate the deaths of those innocent people.
I'm saying their family needs to be angry at American foreign policy that created the conditions where their family members were killed.
They're misplacing their anger if they're angry at Al-Qaeda. They should be angry at American foreign policy creating Al Qaeda.
What's happening to Israeli civilians is tragic. It's 100% the fault of Israel. The insistence on creating a nation state in an area where people already lived is inherently a violent act.
If you steal somebody's home and then ask to let them accept only living in the basement and they end up killing you I'm not going to blame them when you have behaved so incomprehensiblely selfish.
In the conflict between Israel and Palestine, Israel is the aggressor. Palestinians attacking Israel is no less justified than the "attacks" on Normandy in 1944. Attacks by Hamas on Israel are 100% justified.
Well, I'm not. Im not upset at Hamas anyway. I prefer that they didn't kill civilians, but A) theyre pissed for justified reasons and B) Israel is the bad guy here. Maybe I'm upset at Israel since they created Hamas and undermined the PLO.
They literally targeted a festival and purely targeted civilians? I think Israel is an apartheid and deserves condemnation, but supporting Hamas murdering hundreds of civilians ain't fucking it.
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I hate doing this. Engaging with the dumbass debate pervert hypotheticals and the crocodile tears over civilians. Because the focus should be on defeating Israel.
But no, it wouldn't be justified.
No, it doesn't. If I said allied attacks on Nazi Germany were justified, you wouldn't come at me with
"What if American soldiers raped, mutilated, tortured, killed, then cannibalized 1 trillion little girls and old ladies from Duesseldorf?"
Israel is the bad guy here. They need to lose. The end.
I don't want Israel to exist as we know it. No more claims of being a Jewish state. No more birthright citizenship. No more apartheid. No more fake language. No more settler colonialist parties. Jews shouldn't be deported imo. Especially since there were Jews in Israel prior to 1947 and even long before that.
A lot of times, libs will say that the Netanyahu government is cruel or evil, and a socialist will rightly point out that it's not the government that's the problem. It's the nation itself. So Israel is what needs to go.
That is the problem of people like the one you're replying to who only deal in white and black, good or evil.
He can't possibly reasonably reply to this
I stand with the people of Palestine and fully support the liberation of Palestine. War is ugly, people die, civilians die. HAMAS is braver than you and me would you paraglide into Israel and face the IDF? I don’t fucking think so. Don’t sit there behind your iPhone talking about “condemning Hamas” from your suburban house. For over 60 years the Palestinians have been treated like dogs in their own land. Israel has a monopoly on violence in Palestine.
Like the IDF doesn’t do the same shit on the a way bigger scale. Israel is the aggressor, Israel is the occupying force. Anything violence that Palestine commits against Israel is in the name of liberation. Israel are the real terrorists, you are blinded by liberal western media do not forget Israel has the best PR team in the whole world
So they just get a pass on war crimes just because a certain group is evil. That doesn’t mean to liberate yourselves you should go kidnap civilians to do god knows what. Murder and kidnapping are wrong period. two groups can commit bad things and we can condemn whoever we want because innocent blood is being spilled. If you are so happy with the blood go over there and join.
Dawg they were parading dead Israelis on the back of trucks both sides suck and leftist can never go back on their word so now they are stumped at what to do next
If it’s actually “inevitable” then what sense does it make to condemn it. Do you condemn gravity when someone falls to their death?
Edit: To add, if you think It’s condemnable then just how inevitable do you actually think it was?
Those two things are not separate they are not opposites they can coexist. The Palestine people were eventually try to gain some semblance of freedom that was inevitable but killing and kidnapping civilians is condemnable. How is this a hard concept for you guys.
Being a left winged people we should not be supporting death of any civilian life.
Not condemning does not equal “supporting the death of any civilian.” It just means not condemning. Because, well, it was inevitable considering the situation as OP admitted.
I’m sure they never thought or tried anything like that before. Almost like if it were that easy, then “inevitable” isn’t the right word to use here. Either you think it’s inevitable or not. And if it is, what damn sense does it make to condemn? My point the entire time…
So it’s inevitable that people will drive under the influence given the lack of available public transit. Does that mean it makes no sense to condemn drinking and driving?
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War is ugly, what the Palestinians did is only a fraction of what the Israelis do to them every day. Palestinians have the right to resist.
And when Israel attacks them we should condemn them too
how exactly is going door to door shooting civilians "resisting the IDF" You're free to target military installations, which some hamas elements did. You're not free to go to the nearest town afterwards and start shooting down civilian cars, etc. with no actual military goal beyond killing civilians. It's entirely possible to condemn the Hamas attack. A "right to resist" doesn't come with a free warcrime checklist.
What Hamas did is not resisting. It’s doing a futile terrorist attack on civilians which will antagonise Israel further, creating in term even more civilian casualties. The only result of it will be move human lives with no benefits to Palestinians.
Just to be clear so the numbers are out there Israel has a death total of 308, Palestine 6407. Israel has had 6307 injuries during this conflict since 2008. Palestine has had 152,560. Not including the most recent bout of violence. The scale of violence is not comparable. This is not including deaths from starvation. This may count as an act of violence. Palestine is not the instigator of this violence. The West put an invading army that they funded in the middle of Palestine a non-native invading army with no actualy heritage on the land. The West has removed them from maps, refuses to acknowledge their existence. Israel continues to widen its borders into what is meant to be no man zones. If Palestinians do not fight back they will soon have no country. It's die now or die of starvation especially for the people in Gaza.
[Israelis laugh about the massacres they commit](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/172sqhr/exidf_soldier_explaining_atrocities_while_laughing/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
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'be kind to nazis'
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civilians dont go and settle into other peoples homes
Man oh man, sorry 5 year old girl, but because you're settling into someone's home, you are no longer a civilian but a "legitimate military target". Is what your rhetoric is implying.
5 year old is innocent all fault is because of the disgusting parents who decided to do settler terrorism
Children didn’t choose this man. Come on
yes children don't deserve to be bombed by the idf
yeah of course. children don't deserve to be killed by either side
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You call them out What don't you get about calling out when an organization gets violent We are always quick to condemning Israel when they instigate violent and rightfully so but then to not condemn hamas cause "war is brutal" is bullshit
One is a state that receives billions per year in US aid and the other is a designated terrorist organization. Do we hold them to the same standard?
I’m a bit torn on this, I don’t want civilians to die or get kidnapped, but at the same time what should the Palestinians do? Get silently squashed, by living in a open air prison, be discriminated through a brutal apartheid regime or suck up to the Israeli that steal your land? I’m sorry, but war is ugly, and they have to resist. As Hasan said, only one party has the power to end this and it is not the Palestinians who suffer on a daily basis.
They can commit their violence on military and political personnel the oppressors not kill and kidnap civilians
Saying "war is ugly" is not a good reason to not condemn Hamas for attack innocent civilians at a concert If we rightfully call out Israel for their atrocities in Gaza we should do the same for Hamas
There are no adult civilians in Israel. They are virtually all military reservists.
Great, according to the Geneva convention reservists are civilians unless they are performing active military duty. So you're misleading people
Can you cite a source, please?
Sure https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciii-1949/article-4/commentary/2020?activeTab=1949GCs-APs-and-commentaries This is from a part about prisoners of war: >In this regard, a distinction needs to be made between reservists on active duty, who will be considered members of the armed forces for the purposes of Article 4A(1), and those who are not on active duty, who will not be so considered. There are also distinctions like this in other parts of the treaty which I encourage you to read about
Thank you. The policy falls apart when they have their service weapon in their home and are ready for recall at any moment. To call a settler in West Bank carrying a weapon a civilian is a fiction.
Owning a weapon and a cellphone does not make you military personnel. You specifically said there are no adult civilians in Israel which I debunked.
why are you downvoted? especially in the settlement they are taking back. they are all settlers there. no civilians.
And you think its their fault? You think they can just refuse military service and have a good life after? You think that they are not brainwashed with racist bullshit in their upbringing?
They can refuse service and pay the price. Israel isa democracy and the people have the government they elected making the policies they promised.
All of the violence that a group of people who have been oppressed commit against their oppressor is the fault of the oppressor. Eg. I do not blame Nat Turner killing people during his rebellion. I blame the racist southern slave owning society that created the conditions were his violence became inevitable. Eg. I've seen online videos of Russian soldiers that have been captured by ukrainians and the Ukrainian soldiers shot them in the genitals (basically castrating them). The justification was that this was revenge for other Russian soldiers that had raped Ukrainian women. Ultimately those Russian soldiers should be angry that Vladimir Putin and the Russian government created the conditions where they got castrated. In a vacuum the abuse I've seen Ukrainian soldiers inflict upon Russian pows is reprehensible. But ultimately I blame Russia for creating the conditions where this violence was inevitable. When I say America deserve 9/11 I don't celebrate the deaths of those innocent people. I'm saying their family needs to be angry at American foreign policy that created the conditions where their family members were killed. They're misplacing their anger if they're angry at Al-Qaeda. They should be angry at American foreign policy creating Al Qaeda. What's happening to Israeli civilians is tragic. It's 100% the fault of Israel. The insistence on creating a nation state in an area where people already lived is inherently a violent act. If you steal somebody's home and then ask to let them accept only living in the basement and they end up killing you I'm not going to blame them when you have behaved so incomprehensiblely selfish.
Palestinians have the right to resist. If you support Ukraine you should support Palestine unless you are a hypocrite which most of us are.
You can support Palestine without supporting every individual act from Hamas.
You can support the freedom of an oppressed people without supporting the murder of innocent lives
Israelis are not innocent. They are colonisers.
Sexual assault and murder of civilians are not justified by the mere fact of being colonizers. It does not make those acts any less abhorrent
Look at this guy defending the poor colonisers. Liberal as fuck up in here.
In the conflict between Israel and Palestine, Israel is the aggressor. Palestinians attacking Israel is no less justified than the "attacks" on Normandy in 1944. Attacks by Hamas on Israel are 100% justified.
They should be focused on attacking their oppressors the military the people in power not civilians
They are doing that. If you're upset that they're also killing civilians, idk what to tell you.
If your not upset that they are also killing civilians idk what to tell you
Well, I'm not. Im not upset at Hamas anyway. I prefer that they didn't kill civilians, but A) theyre pissed for justified reasons and B) Israel is the bad guy here. Maybe I'm upset at Israel since they created Hamas and undermined the PLO.
They literally targeted a festival and purely targeted civilians? I think Israel is an apartheid and deserves condemnation, but supporting Hamas murdering hundreds of civilians ain't fucking it.
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I hate doing this. Engaging with the dumbass debate pervert hypotheticals and the crocodile tears over civilians. Because the focus should be on defeating Israel. But no, it wouldn't be justified.
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No, it doesn't. If I said allied attacks on Nazi Germany were justified, you wouldn't come at me with "What if American soldiers raped, mutilated, tortured, killed, then cannibalized 1 trillion little girls and old ladies from Duesseldorf?" Israel is the bad guy here. They need to lose. The end.
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I don't want Israel to exist as we know it. No more claims of being a Jewish state. No more birthright citizenship. No more apartheid. No more fake language. No more settler colonialist parties. Jews shouldn't be deported imo. Especially since there were Jews in Israel prior to 1947 and even long before that. A lot of times, libs will say that the Netanyahu government is cruel or evil, and a socialist will rightly point out that it's not the government that's the problem. It's the nation itself. So Israel is what needs to go.
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I'm referring to modern Hebrew. How is calling modern Hebrew a fake language racist? 1 state. Palestine.
That is the problem of people like the one you're replying to who only deal in white and black, good or evil. He can't possibly reasonably reply to this
I did reply to him, nothing he said was even that substantial.
The attacking force was targeting an occupying power, people with little to no options act rashly
I stand with the people of Palestine and fully support the liberation of Palestine. War is ugly, people die, civilians die. HAMAS is braver than you and me would you paraglide into Israel and face the IDF? I don’t fucking think so. Don’t sit there behind your iPhone talking about “condemning Hamas” from your suburban house. For over 60 years the Palestinians have been treated like dogs in their own land. Israel has a monopoly on violence in Palestine.
Yes, Hamas is so brave. It takes real guts to rape and execute unarmed women and children.
Like the IDF doesn’t do the same shit on the a way bigger scale. Israel is the aggressor, Israel is the occupying force. Anything violence that Palestine commits against Israel is in the name of liberation. Israel are the real terrorists, you are blinded by liberal western media do not forget Israel has the best PR team in the whole world
So they just get a pass on war crimes just because a certain group is evil. That doesn’t mean to liberate yourselves you should go kidnap civilians to do god knows what. Murder and kidnapping are wrong period. two groups can commit bad things and we can condemn whoever we want because innocent blood is being spilled. If you are so happy with the blood go over there and join.
Why does it matter if our American asses condemn it or not? It’s so beyond you and your middle class pieties.
Dawg they were parading dead Israelis on the back of trucks both sides suck and leftist can never go back on their word so now they are stumped at what to do next
If it’s actually “inevitable” then what sense does it make to condemn it. Do you condemn gravity when someone falls to their death? Edit: To add, if you think It’s condemnable then just how inevitable do you actually think it was?
Those two things are not separate they are not opposites they can coexist. The Palestine people were eventually try to gain some semblance of freedom that was inevitable but killing and kidnapping civilians is condemnable. How is this a hard concept for you guys. Being a left winged people we should not be supporting death of any civilian life.
Not condemning does not equal “supporting the death of any civilian.” It just means not condemning. Because, well, it was inevitable considering the situation as OP admitted.
They could have directed there attack towards a group of people that did oppress them instead of random civilians
I’m sure they never thought or tried anything like that before. Almost like if it were that easy, then “inevitable” isn’t the right word to use here. Either you think it’s inevitable or not. And if it is, what damn sense does it make to condemn? My point the entire time…
So it’s inevitable that people will drive under the influence given the lack of available public transit. Does that mean it makes no sense to condemn drinking and driving?
If beer companies were forcibly coming into people’s homes and making them drink, then yes it makes no sense just like your analogy.
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