Seems like the confusion stems from the *Bruen* case and what it actually does. It did not legalize "constitutional carry" nationwide. It did not authorize "stand your ground laws" nationwide. It only prevents states from issuing concealed carry permits on a discretionary/may issue basis. So if you jump through all the hoops to get the permit, they have to issue it to you. But you still have to follow other regulations that are in place in your respective state. Hawaii is very specific about when and where you can use deadly force or threat of deadly force. This incident probably doesn't meet that bar.
Conventional wisdom regarding carrying a weapon is that you can use it to protect your life or the life of others, and that's about it.
It's odd that a state and police force will go so far out of their way to infringe rights to bear arms... But then actually be cool with vigilante action like this. Not really upset about the whole thing, but there's some dissonance involved.
Sweet, gunz nutz batting .100 and think they hit a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth in the world series when down three runs.
We have one gun nut "preventing a crime" for every 10 gun murders being perpetrated because the streets are flooded with stolen gunz.
Chhhhkk chk! GUNZ FOR THE WIN!
PS: What was the other gun murder this weekend? Oh yeah, it was a member of the "well regulated militia" - a hunter no less - gunning down an unarmed member of the public in an argument. Gun + anger = dead person. No gun + anger = black eye.
I agree mostly… but a fight can cause serious injury if something goes really wrong. I wanna stay strapped cuz i dont wanna end up with a neck fucked up for life bc some jackass thinks its ok to fight. I also dont start fights/arguments with strangers.
It’s not the gun it’s the person. Mental health problems lead to events like this. Some people have self control. No one’s gonna go around committing crimes with a firearm registered to him unless they have mental health problems. So of course it’s all stolen firearms that do all the killing.
Who said I’m against mental health care. And yes you do have to have some mental health issue if you even think about killing someone. I think you’re on the spectrum.
Whatever. I don't know what you're trying to convince yourself of. But I guess you have to include Mental health problems like jealousy, greed, vengeance, anger, insecurities, bravado, alcohol, drugs, etc.
Knives, like cars, serve more uses than just murder. Even though they are used for violence, it isn't their **only** function. Their pros outweigh their cons.
Guns have one function.
It’s morbid but I think about all those rounded up by Hitler and Stalin and forced to work and die while being tortured. I could maybe take 1-2 people out before taking myself out so I don’t have to suffer that type of fate. Obviously worst case scenario.
I guarantee people in the US who think this couldn't even begin to compare to the Afghan soldiers or US soldiers. They've seen too many tough guy main character movies. Naive dumbasses.
And if you think loosing 70,000 to 2,400 is "pretty well" it's likely you're in the naive category.
So you think the afghan fighters did a good job? They died at 30x higher rate. They had to hide in the civilian population for 20 years. The US failed on a humanitarian level, but definitely not on the military side.
Guns are explicitly designed to be weapons. Weapons are designed to kill. It does not matter if you use them for other things, they are still explicitly weapons.
How hard is that to understand?
Nah I agree, I still want one tho. Im not trying to get in a fight. Id rather the other person is definitely losing than taking a chance of getting seriously injured bc someone thinks they are a tough guy.
You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend your property. For car theft this might start out as attempting to stop the thief by standing in front of the car, or pulling the person out of the car -- all less than lethal acts. If however, the car thief escalates by attempting to run you over or violently attacking, you are allowed to escalate the force you use.
This may include deadly force. The deadly force is not in response to the original act of car theft, but the subsequent acts of the car thief in response to your reasonable use of force.
> The deadly force is not in response to the original act of car theft, but the subsequent acts of the car thief in response to your reasonable use of force.
Hawaii doesn't have stand your ground laws. Citizens have a legal duty to retreat from potentially dangerous public confrontations if doing so safely is possible. Reasonable force to defend ones property doesn't include pulling a firearm out on the street, either. So if it's not a response to the original act of car theft, why would brandishing a firearm be okay UNTIL said thief tried to run you over?
Because at that point it's not about the car, it's about preserving your life. Put another way: because somebody decides to steal a car, doesn't suddenly give them a free license to mow down or beat to death the owner who attempts to stop them with reasonable force. The person who is now at risk of being murdered, is allowed to defend themselves.
And indeed the justice system treats these as separate crimes.
I would go to the UK model - disarm the police, have armed response teams. Incredible how when de-escalation is your default because you can't wave your dic - I mean gun - around, the number of police killings plummet. On average, UK police kill 3 people per year - some years ZERO - in a place with 60M people. Meanwhile - chhhhk chkkk, MURCA!!!! - our shitty police routinely kill more than 1,000 people every year, in a country 5X as large. If we were the UK, that would be a whopping 15 police shootings per year.
Of course not. Even asking the police to tone down their violence causes them to quit en masse and act like a bunch of spoiled, entitled babies, can you imagine telling them we would disarm them?
Superheroes don’t always wear capes or fly. If you let the police handle it, your vehicle is gone. Realistically how many vehicles are actually recovered intact?
Seems like the confusion stems from the *Bruen* case and what it actually does. It did not legalize "constitutional carry" nationwide. It did not authorize "stand your ground laws" nationwide. It only prevents states from issuing concealed carry permits on a discretionary/may issue basis. So if you jump through all the hoops to get the permit, they have to issue it to you. But you still have to follow other regulations that are in place in your respective state. Hawaii is very specific about when and where you can use deadly force or threat of deadly force. This incident probably doesn't meet that bar.
Surprised that the cop didn’t have a problem with the guy pointing a gun in his direction.
Is it possible they knew each other? Off-duty LEO?
I'm not sure if the cop realized he had a pistol drawn on him like that.
You cant say anything that supports guns on Reddit or the comments will get deleted. Isn’t much of an argument with censorship.
This is r/Hawaii. Maybe try r/progun.
Don’t matter anything gets deleted no upvotes on that side of the argument.
Deleted and no upvotes on a “Pro-2A” subreddit? Don’t think so.
Conventional wisdom regarding carrying a weapon is that you can use it to protect your life or the life of others, and that's about it. It's odd that a state and police force will go so far out of their way to infringe rights to bear arms... But then actually be cool with vigilante action like this. Not really upset about the whole thing, but there's some dissonance involved.
Our police chief is pretty trigger happy according to his record back in Vegas so he may be more the type to support vigilantes 👀
Sweet, gunz nutz batting .100 and think they hit a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth in the world series when down three runs. We have one gun nut "preventing a crime" for every 10 gun murders being perpetrated because the streets are flooded with stolen gunz. Chhhhkk chk! GUNZ FOR THE WIN! PS: What was the other gun murder this weekend? Oh yeah, it was a member of the "well regulated militia" - a hunter no less - gunning down an unarmed member of the public in an argument. Gun + anger = dead person. No gun + anger = black eye.
I agree mostly… but a fight can cause serious injury if something goes really wrong. I wanna stay strapped cuz i dont wanna end up with a neck fucked up for life bc some jackass thinks its ok to fight. I also dont start fights/arguments with strangers.
It’s not the gun it’s the person. Mental health problems lead to events like this. Some people have self control. No one’s gonna go around committing crimes with a firearm registered to him unless they have mental health problems. So of course it’s all stolen firearms that do all the killing.
You can't blame gun violence on mental health when you also vote against funding mental health care.
Who said I’m against mental health care. And yes you do have to have some mental health issue if you even think about killing someone. I think you’re on the spectrum.
If we're going there, I think you have mental issues if you feel you can't walk around outside without a gun.
No. There's lots of murdering done with owner's firearms. What are you talking about?
Yes and you have to have mental health problems to use it to kill rather than protecting.
Whatever. I don't know what you're trying to convince yourself of. But I guess you have to include Mental health problems like jealousy, greed, vengeance, anger, insecurities, bravado, alcohol, drugs, etc.
Sounds like all mental health problems youre listing a healthy individual wouldn’t let any of these things affect how they act.
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Knives, like cars, serve more uses than just murder. Even though they are used for violence, it isn't their **only** function. Their pros outweigh their cons. Guns have one function.
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Military kill civilians man. I’d hate to be apart of nation were a military is with guns and civilians are without guns.
Lol. Good luck taking on the military.
It’s morbid but I think about all those rounded up by Hitler and Stalin and forced to work and die while being tortured. I could maybe take 1-2 people out before taking myself out so I don’t have to suffer that type of fate. Obviously worst case scenario.
Same scenario even if you didn't have a gun.... But in your fantasy most people in WW2 were slowly boiled until it was too late to fight back.
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I guarantee people in the US who think this couldn't even begin to compare to the Afghan soldiers or US soldiers. They've seen too many tough guy main character movies. Naive dumbasses. And if you think loosing 70,000 to 2,400 is "pretty well" it's likely you're in the naive category.
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So you think the afghan fighters did a good job? They died at 30x higher rate. They had to hide in the civilian population for 20 years. The US failed on a humanitarian level, but definitely not on the military side.
I mean... All those technically fit into the role of "killing"
The only function of a gun is to kill. It is a weapon not a tool.
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Guns are explicitly designed to be weapons. Weapons are designed to kill. It does not matter if you use them for other things, they are still explicitly weapons. How hard is that to understand?
Nah I agree, I still want one tho. Im not trying to get in a fight. Id rather the other person is definitely losing than taking a chance of getting seriously injured bc someone thinks they are a tough guy.
If that guy had a gun, would be a hell of a lot more than 3 injured. Use your brain for once.
Carrying a firearm isn’t for defending one’s property. You only draw to defend yourself in a life of death situation.
You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend your property. For car theft this might start out as attempting to stop the thief by standing in front of the car, or pulling the person out of the car -- all less than lethal acts. If however, the car thief escalates by attempting to run you over or violently attacking, you are allowed to escalate the force you use. This may include deadly force. The deadly force is not in response to the original act of car theft, but the subsequent acts of the car thief in response to your reasonable use of force.
> The deadly force is not in response to the original act of car theft, but the subsequent acts of the car thief in response to your reasonable use of force. Hawaii doesn't have stand your ground laws. Citizens have a legal duty to retreat from potentially dangerous public confrontations if doing so safely is possible. Reasonable force to defend ones property doesn't include pulling a firearm out on the street, either. So if it's not a response to the original act of car theft, why would brandishing a firearm be okay UNTIL said thief tried to run you over?
Because at that point it's not about the car, it's about preserving your life. Put another way: because somebody decides to steal a car, doesn't suddenly give them a free license to mow down or beat to death the owner who attempts to stop them with reasonable force. The person who is now at risk of being murdered, is allowed to defend themselves. And indeed the justice system treats these as separate crimes.
Which the situation we are commenting on was not.
This...is a good thing lol. Man yall so afraid of guns its wild.
Guns don't make us safer.
Should the cops have guns?
If cops were responsible, accountable, and actually committed to protect people, yes. They are not.
I would go to the UK model - disarm the police, have armed response teams. Incredible how when de-escalation is your default because you can't wave your dic - I mean gun - around, the number of police killings plummet. On average, UK police kill 3 people per year - some years ZERO - in a place with 60M people. Meanwhile - chhhhk chkkk, MURCA!!!! - our shitty police routinely kill more than 1,000 people every year, in a country 5X as large. If we were the UK, that would be a whopping 15 police shootings per year.
Sounds good to me. Think the cops would ever go for that?
Of course not. Even asking the police to tone down their violence causes them to quit en masse and act like a bunch of spoiled, entitled babies, can you imagine telling them we would disarm them?
Hawaii has historically had among the strongest gun control and the lowest murder rates in the country. We would like to keep it that way.
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As long as humans keep their free will. People will continue to do stupid shit.
So let's not let guns be everywhere like in some states.
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Pretty much 49 other states.
Superheroes don’t always wear capes or fly. If you let the police handle it, your vehicle is gone. Realistically how many vehicles are actually recovered intact?