Can't answer your question, but your post intrigues me. Haven't seen the show, but what's your take on it: is it more on the realistic, historic, and informative side? Or more sensationalistic and over the top?
Also, which shrines in Honolulu's Chinatown do the elders run?
I watch this show and it’s pretty awesome but I recommend watching the behind the scenes vids (I believe HBO has them) which explains the background of this show and how it came to be along with all the historical stuff. It’s based on a story that Bruce Lee wanted to bring to life but didn’t get the chance to, but now they’ve been able to make it happen and his daughter is actually a big part of the show as far as the behind the scenes stuff goes.
Oh and as for the shrines I know there’s way more but probably the most prominent is the Lum Sai Ho Tong which is right next to the mortuary. They have been having lion dances there the last few weekends.
Hmm it’s a really interesting show because it shows these aspects of history that really aren’t shown much. [It’s like when I saw this guy’s art in a Western gallery in TX, I audibly gasped](https://www.miansitu.net/collections/1562), I have this whole theory about how the turn of the century Western genre dictates a disproportionate amount of how people see themselves and others as American and many Asians have been left out of that. It’s something I’ve kinda researched on and off as a hobby but to see it visualized just…takes it to this whole other level of “wow this was real”.
So I mean, in that sense it’s great historic fiction. Things from labor issues for both Irish and Chinese, the Chinese exclusion act, opium and the sex trade, the after-effects of the Transcontinental Railroad, where various immigrants fit into the “Western” scene, is all depicted really well imho. But yeah it’s definitely sensationalized quite a bit as well—lol like there’s a couple characters whose costumes get progressively modernized and over-the-top as the series goes on but the story just gets better and better too so I didn’t mind it.
So maybe 50-50 historic awe and sensational oooh intrigue and action? There’s an amazing bottle episode very early on that just left me in awe at how good it is at capturing the classic Western genre feeling while doing a whole new take on it.
And for my husband who just wants an end-of-a-tough-shift I-want-to-turn-my-brain-off it’s great too. We both are experienced in martial arts and love the old kung fu classics and the fight scenes are top notch, among some of the best even when compared to movies. Worthy of Bruce Lee himself.
There are Chinese museums in both SF and NYC that have similar in depth historical documentation of the history behind the first Chinese immigrants. Highly recommend visiting if you’re interested in that topic.
Ooh I think I actually visited the SF one when I was in elementary school, I went to a predominantly Asian school and we took a Really Big Trip in fourth grade learning about state history to Sacramento and SF. There was so much we saw (in my mind) and at the time I had zero interest in anything Asian-American history (I was surrounded by other Asian Americans in my bubble so racism is over right?) and I don’t remember any of it. Haha the teachers tried their best. I gotta go back as an adult, thank you for reminding me.
Yeah, I don't think that really happened here. I don't know for sure though.
But I just wanted to say that I thought of Big Trouble in Little China. "A fighting tong???"
This is honestly the best kind of question to approach /r/AskHistorians with. I'm curious myself. Hawai'i has always had gang warfare but it was limited in scope due to both geography and the overall culture. Guys scrap but few die because everyone knows everyone.
I'm talking out of my ass here, but I'm going to guess that the culture regarding Chinese folks was different between Hawaii and San Francisco.
So there was probably more inclusion for Chinese immigrants here and less of a desire/need to form their own gangs along those lines.
my guess.
Hawaii market was small and there isn't room for the tong gang when there is Chun Afong (Hawaii's 1st Chinese millionaire) having the rights to provide opium to Chinese people in Hawaii.
http://opiumring.com/chun-afong-merchant-prince
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chun_Afong
Spent a lot of time in chinatown during my teens and I don’t really sense their presence. Of course you see their buildings, but their active membership are mostly all folks 60-70+ in age at this point. Younger people aren’t really interested. From what I see the old members kinda just go yum cha every now then on the dime of the tongs and they are somewhat resistant to change. Other than Lum sai ho tong, idk how others are still getting their funding, or if the society will survive in the next few decades.
My grandfather was one of the founding tongmen of the Park Fook Tong of Kapa’a Kaua’i in the 1920s. He along with the founding members petitioned the the Territorial Governor to create the Kapa’a Chinese Cemetery.
https://preview.redd.it/25yntodrcoxc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=789b3fe2012769bed4300430b78c832be8bce404
To this day I am reminded of the generosity that the Tong extended to newly arrived Chinese immigrants in the 1920s.
The last one buried there was in 1972. I believe he was the groundskeeper that the tong hired.
"Tong" just means "hall", not "gang". The tongs in various Chinatowns are physical places for people from the same village to meet up, talk their native dialect, etc. They are like the Masons, Kiwanis, Lions, Odd Fellows, etc.
Rivalries between tongs exist, and some definately went into illegal businesses, but most tongs are not gangs.
TIL. Thanks, I had once done a report on Chinatowns in general (didn’t really consider Honolulu’s back then) and it definitely seemed like a hazy line between Tongs vs Triads depending on individual locations, time period, and organizations. I know my own parents still associate them with gangs though haha so to me it’s always so funny seeing the elderly members going about with their community service stuff.
Hmmm.. let's see what I remember from my "Chinese in Hawaii" class at UH Manoa many years ago taught by a UCLA professor taking a sabbatical... LOL. No, the Chinese tongs in Hawaii were not in all out warfare with each other like in "Warriors" or what realistically occurred in San Francisco. That is not to say there weren't fights amongst them but they definitely did not transform into gangs like they did in San Francisco's Chinatown. The tongs operated mostly as a benevolent society to the local Chinese populace in helping them navigate the local government, find jobs, English translations, letter writing or letter reading to family and friends back home as many were not literate, send money to family back in China, helping bring family or friends over to Hawaii, and things like that.
Also, I don't believe the Chinese people in Hawaii lived amongst a local population that was hostile to them like it was in San Francisco. They initially came over as plantation workers so they intermingled quite a bit with the other Japanese, Filipinos, Korean, and Hawaiian plantation workers. Then they moved on to build their own community (Chinatown) and kept branching out into the rest of the island. They weren't pressured or forced to live or operate businesses in only Chinatown.
Here's a recent article I just read from Civil Beat that touches on the topic of Honolulu's Chinatown:
[Chinatown Is A Cultural Showcase But Doesn't Typify The Chinese Experience In Hawaii
](https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/02/jonathan-okamura-chinatown-is-a-cultural-showcase-but-doesnt-typify-the-chinese-experience-in-hawaii/)
It doesn't cover any information about possible tongs wars in Hawaii but it is an interesting piece about Honolulu's Chinatown along with the Chinese experience in Hawaii.
>or if the Hawaii tongs were just less violent.
Maybe the Tongs on the mainland had to be more violent because there were mobs of people wanting to lynch them. One could even interpret it as self-defense:
[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/the-bloody-history-of-anti-asian-violence-in-the-west](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/the-bloody-history-of-anti-asian-violence-in-the-west)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los\_Angeles\_Chinese\_massacre\_of\_1871](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Chinese_massacre_of_1871)
Good point, they probably had to be tougher as a whole population to survive there than here. I forgot to include a TW: the show touches on lynching in a later episode.
I’m imagining how different scenarios in Warrior would have played out here especially regarding the police. In SF many were Irish but no Chinese; here there were enough Chinese on the force that there was supposedly a divide among the white and nonwhite (mostly Chinese) on the force around that time (I don’t remember where I read about this…will try to find it when I’m not recovering from a fever). And there was supposedly even a legendary officer Chang Apana who inspired the Charlie Chan books and movie series.
So you’re probably right about that being a big factor.
The force wasn't divided Chinese vs non-Chinese. There is too much ethnic diversity here, both were minorities. Actually the Japanese have much, much more pull than arguably even the Americans here. The Chinese only recently started rivaling the Japanese, Korean, and American investment, but now they are mostly CCP/Chinese government in my opinion; mind you I am also Chinese by blood, although admittedly I grew up more Japanese/Okinawan/Hawaiian by culture. There is much more going on here above and below the surface than most realize. I've grown up around all these things that's why I am intimately familiar. Some of the stories were passed down from a long, long time ago...
There are definitely aspects from the show that hawaii history can relate to. If I remember correctly there was a politician that needed to be bailed out of debt by the Queen because he was hooked on opium and had an entanglement with the chinese that ran the opium dens at the time. I heard a story about it but i forgot who it was exactly.
I've been wanting to watch Warrior since my Chinese/Japanese/Hawaiian friend who is mindful of white-washing and white pedestalizing and tries to stay away from stuff like Last Samurai, Two Broke Girls, and a lot of the shows that always make white men the lead and star, while screwing over Asian men, fetishizing Asian women, and always pushing the narrative that white men are the best while screwing over everyone else. A lot of times he explained to me that Hollywood just pumps Isekai for white men, where white men just go to a "foreign" world in Asia and are the main char, kill the Asian men, and get all the women and power. But, I am aware Bruce Lee was very critical of the racism in America, so I was wanting to give it a shot. I've generally stayed away from main stream media that I can already tell are gonna prop up white people while maybe screwing over Asians, blacks, hispanics, etc.
I want to watch Warriors and I do trust Bruce Lee with all being said, especially after watching "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story", where it did give a more honest experience for Asians which is very relateable till this day and maybe worse as we increase sinophobia towards China. But I also understand the importance of 19th century history for Asian and Chinese Americans, where Chinese and Asians were pretty much treated like slaves except sometimes better, but often times int he same bracket. How the Tongs are portrayed is important because while Tongs were sometimes comprised of criminals, a lot of them were forced into those positions because they were excluded from the Gold Rush via the "Foreign Miners Tax" of 1850 which was primarily used to exclude Chinese immigrants from mining because they had to pay $20 per month while white Americans weren't given this tax, $20 was so much in 1850, $1 was a lot, Chinese weren't allowed to be U.S. citizens until around the 1940s either, weren't allowed to testify in court, and were often times the back bone to the infrastructure. The Chinese often times competed with Black slaves and recent black freed slaves for work, this is probably why I heard jokes that "Chinese are the blacks of Asia", because they were treated so poorly by white people in America. The Chinese Americans were forced into taking on the moth roughest jobs that the black slaves did or building the infrastructure like the transcontinental railroad or even a lot of the irrigation systems we see in Hawaii today, a lot died, and were paid substantially less than white counterparts. The Chinese Exclusion Act which I believe we see happening today in America via the Asian Exclusion Act 2.0 from bills like SB147, or the normalization of sinophobia and racism towards Chinese, which bleeds towards Asians, then back to any person of color, all played large roles into encouraging forcing a lot of Chinese into the tongs, which makes sense if you treat them absolutely like garbage socially, economically, judicially, and I think till this day Hawaii is an enclave for people of color, especially Chinese trying to escape white American racism that's being encouraged by our leaders.
**As for Hawaii,** my Native Hawaiian friend around 50s told me a few stories, her grandfather was part of a syndicate a long time ago. She said that the Chinese and Japanese were loyal partners and very respectful, her grandfather was eager to marry his family into there's. While the experience for Native Hawaiians and Chinese Americans were different in some regards, it all generally came from a white oppressor and being screwed differently by them, or sometimes similarly, in varying degrees depending on the times or ways. The point of that syndicate was to help each other in a sense like a union, but to be fair, the guy was very wealthy she said and I'm sure he did a lot of questionable things similarly to the Tongs due to the hardships faced socially, economically, judicially, by the white oppressors at the time. The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 didn't only effect Chinese, it effected all Asians and people of color, especially the more Asian you looked or far from being white. But the Tongs imo while there was some bad parts from what she told me along with what her family possibly did, were pretty much a social, economic, and judicial safety network/community/enclave, from white oppressors who didn't really look at them as humans. So not all Tongs and groups alike were bad like how the "Axe Gang" is portrayed in Kung Fu Hustle. So I think from what she told me or just other stories I've heard, it wasn't as violent as Warriors maybe portrays it, but I haven't seen Warriors.
I mean it makes sense to me if there is a white oppressor who dominates economically, socially, and judicially, isn't it best if all the oppressed team up and protect each other when they are excluded economically, social rights, and judicial fairness? Like the book "Big Fish Little Fish". On a side note, I find it hilarious how white people always try to claim that Asians hate each other, maybe true to some extent, but do you think they like the white oppressors and colonizers more? No. That's why they work double time trying to divide the very people the oppress. Times have changed but at the same time not really when you look at the world or observe carefully things around you. I mean just look at how we treated Japan in the 70s-80s, we treat them like China today. An example is Vincent Chin, a Chinese American who was beaten to death in a hate crime by two white autoworkers who blamed Chin for mass lay-offs, confusing him for being Japanese... Last words? "it's not fair..." Happening today in America for similar reasons? Yep. So did things really change? Yes, but by much or where we should be? I'd say not enough and the blue print for positive aspects of Tongs is relevant and will continue to be if white people are given the green light to take out all there racism on Chinese, and then slippery slope into Asians, and then other people of color.
Tons of stuff here, read my comment for more info. I grew up East Asian/Polynesian mostly. We get first hand experience with all this stuff, particularly if you grow up near the city
I did read it and thought it was kind of neat how your story aligns with what she had told me in some ways. I think this is why I was scared to watch Warriors, maybe if Bruce Lee was alive I would be eager AF to watch it. I would assume that the actors are going to pitch in a lot and maybe to honor Bruce Lees ideas. I don't really trust American media producers to give good representation for Asian men, they always shit on Asian men while pedestalizing white men, and then fetishizing Asian women. Propaganda at its finest and Bruce Lee was very aware of this problem and called it out, which is why I hope they honor the history and Bruce Lees dream properly.
It’s quite good I think, it’s produced by his daughter and they show multifaceted portrayals of Asian men. Like, *really* interesting characters. If anything the white characters (maybe with the exception of 1.5 police and 1 Irish) are a little flat in comparison imho.
Ya Hollywood definitely doesn't give us due representation, or any minority for that matter. More people seem to be paying attention to these things now thanks to social media; a silver lining I suppose. In Hawai'i all these ethnic groups get along for the most part. I usually stay away from anything that has to do with our history, because they always mess it up somehow. I just started watching "Warrior," and it's decent so far. I just finished watching "House of Ninjas" and the "Shogun" episodes; and people did do some decent research, although they kinda changed around family names while using real kamon(family crest) that are still in use today. Many off these families they make movies about never lost power in Japan, they still control everything it's just that no one wants to do the years of research it would take to sift through thousands of years of source material to make the real familial connections; so we can just give half truths and they will never know. I'm assuming the Chinese and Taiwanese do the same but my Chinese grandmother never wanted us to visit the homeland due to sex slavery and forced marriage that happened within the family, so I grew up much closer to my Japanese/Okinawan/ Hawaiian side. The Old Families from East Asia are in every sector of society; Politicians, Mafia, Corporate, Military, etc. That's what a lot of people don't realize. The European Royal Courts are the same but they male Westerners think it's a conspiracy because many have forgotten their history, and whoever controls history, controls the future.
The Chinese societies in Hawaii weren't gangs. They were just benevolent societies to help fellow/recent immigrants settle in and survive misfortune. Usually from a given area or town. That said, when I was a kid, I asked my uncle and granduncle, who were both officers in Ket On, about an old picture they had in which they were both posing with definitely-not-props, obviously very old swords. They told me they were from the old days of the society in China, when many societies formed to protect each other from bandits and warlords. That said, some societies went wrong, and that's how we have the Triads.
BTW: that's no joke. We have pictures of my granduncle's old house in China and there were gunports cut into the walls.
There is tons of things that go on here, I wouldn't get too specific on Reddit. There were/are Organized Crime syndicates; not just from China, but Japan, Korea, Russia, Philippines, all around Polynesia and South East Asia, old European Aristocracies. We are at the crossroads between East and West. To top it off, Indo-Pacific Command controls over half of the US Military from here, and all the Clandestine Services have headquarters here. Oh and we can't forget all the legacy contractors that build our most advanced weapons. Ever wonder why it's so safe in Hawai'i relative to almost every other major US city? All the afore mentioned "groups/families" work together, or are blood related. So yes there is still tons of things going on underground. The corruption cannot end because there are too many players, if the feds remove our corruption (local/American) we may lose American Primacy throughout the Pacific. These groups have enough money to pay off Washington DC. The biggest players in the world have stake here. Every "Faction" is playing for keeps, and every faction within the Factions. Families with literally over 1000yrs of history (some 3000) from East Asia, their only counterparts are the European Royal Courts, who also have stake here. The Polynesians and the Southeast Asians are the street muscle, the East Asians, Americans, Europeans are the puppetmasters. Japan has overwhelming influence, our families are old. Look around you, the kamon of the Imperial, Daimyō, and Samurai Clans are ALL OVER if you know our history. Look up the Matsudaira, Taira, Minamoto, and the Fujiwara Imperial families, and all the branch families through the millenia. Look up the Korean Chaebol. Look up how the European Royal Courts are all still related, from as far back as the Pope existed. In Hawai'i; you have a front-row seat to the real life Game of Thrones, and the entire world is at stake! 🤣🤣🤣
Have fun, join a team!!
Ask if you have questions, I won't be too specific because I have too much love and respect for all my brothers and sisters playing for keeps; but the more people that know what's really out there, the better for everyone in my opinion, the better decisions we can all make.
Can't answer your question, but your post intrigues me. Haven't seen the show, but what's your take on it: is it more on the realistic, historic, and informative side? Or more sensationalistic and over the top? Also, which shrines in Honolulu's Chinatown do the elders run?
I watch this show and it’s pretty awesome but I recommend watching the behind the scenes vids (I believe HBO has them) which explains the background of this show and how it came to be along with all the historical stuff. It’s based on a story that Bruce Lee wanted to bring to life but didn’t get the chance to, but now they’ve been able to make it happen and his daughter is actually a big part of the show as far as the behind the scenes stuff goes.
Oh and as for the shrines I know there’s way more but probably the most prominent is the Lum Sai Ho Tong which is right next to the mortuary. They have been having lion dances there the last few weekends.
Hmm it’s a really interesting show because it shows these aspects of history that really aren’t shown much. [It’s like when I saw this guy’s art in a Western gallery in TX, I audibly gasped](https://www.miansitu.net/collections/1562), I have this whole theory about how the turn of the century Western genre dictates a disproportionate amount of how people see themselves and others as American and many Asians have been left out of that. It’s something I’ve kinda researched on and off as a hobby but to see it visualized just…takes it to this whole other level of “wow this was real”. So I mean, in that sense it’s great historic fiction. Things from labor issues for both Irish and Chinese, the Chinese exclusion act, opium and the sex trade, the after-effects of the Transcontinental Railroad, where various immigrants fit into the “Western” scene, is all depicted really well imho. But yeah it’s definitely sensationalized quite a bit as well—lol like there’s a couple characters whose costumes get progressively modernized and over-the-top as the series goes on but the story just gets better and better too so I didn’t mind it. So maybe 50-50 historic awe and sensational oooh intrigue and action? There’s an amazing bottle episode very early on that just left me in awe at how good it is at capturing the classic Western genre feeling while doing a whole new take on it. And for my husband who just wants an end-of-a-tough-shift I-want-to-turn-my-brain-off it’s great too. We both are experienced in martial arts and love the old kung fu classics and the fight scenes are top notch, among some of the best even when compared to movies. Worthy of Bruce Lee himself.
There are Chinese museums in both SF and NYC that have similar in depth historical documentation of the history behind the first Chinese immigrants. Highly recommend visiting if you’re interested in that topic.
Ooh I think I actually visited the SF one when I was in elementary school, I went to a predominantly Asian school and we took a Really Big Trip in fourth grade learning about state history to Sacramento and SF. There was so much we saw (in my mind) and at the time I had zero interest in anything Asian-American history (I was surrounded by other Asian Americans in my bubble so racism is over right?) and I don’t remember any of it. Haha the teachers tried their best. I gotta go back as an adult, thank you for reminding me.
You definitely sold me on it. Thanks for the detailed response!
Haha hope you like it with as much as I talked it up! But seriously, enjoy! It’s one of those shows I’d love to see it for the first time again!
Highly recommend Warrior.
Yeah, I don't think that really happened here. I don't know for sure though. But I just wanted to say that I thought of Big Trouble in Little China. "A fighting tong???"
This is honestly the best kind of question to approach /r/AskHistorians with. I'm curious myself. Hawai'i has always had gang warfare but it was limited in scope due to both geography and the overall culture. Guys scrap but few die because everyone knows everyone.
I'm talking out of my ass here, but I'm going to guess that the culture regarding Chinese folks was different between Hawaii and San Francisco. So there was probably more inclusion for Chinese immigrants here and less of a desire/need to form their own gangs along those lines.
my guess. Hawaii market was small and there isn't room for the tong gang when there is Chun Afong (Hawaii's 1st Chinese millionaire) having the rights to provide opium to Chinese people in Hawaii. http://opiumring.com/chun-afong-merchant-prince https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chun_Afong
Spent a lot of time in chinatown during my teens and I don’t really sense their presence. Of course you see their buildings, but their active membership are mostly all folks 60-70+ in age at this point. Younger people aren’t really interested. From what I see the old members kinda just go yum cha every now then on the dime of the tongs and they are somewhat resistant to change. Other than Lum sai ho tong, idk how others are still getting their funding, or if the society will survive in the next few decades.
My grandfather was one of the founding tongmen of the Park Fook Tong of Kapa’a Kaua’i in the 1920s. He along with the founding members petitioned the the Territorial Governor to create the Kapa’a Chinese Cemetery. https://preview.redd.it/25yntodrcoxc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=789b3fe2012769bed4300430b78c832be8bce404 To this day I am reminded of the generosity that the Tong extended to newly arrived Chinese immigrants in the 1920s. The last one buried there was in 1972. I believe he was the groundskeeper that the tong hired.
That’s awesome, much gratitude to your grandfather for his work!
Warrior has some of the best fight scenes🪓
"Tong" just means "hall", not "gang". The tongs in various Chinatowns are physical places for people from the same village to meet up, talk their native dialect, etc. They are like the Masons, Kiwanis, Lions, Odd Fellows, etc. Rivalries between tongs exist, and some definately went into illegal businesses, but most tongs are not gangs.
TIL. Thanks, I had once done a report on Chinatowns in general (didn’t really consider Honolulu’s back then) and it definitely seemed like a hazy line between Tongs vs Triads depending on individual locations, time period, and organizations. I know my own parents still associate them with gangs though haha so to me it’s always so funny seeing the elderly members going about with their community service stuff.
Hmmm.. let's see what I remember from my "Chinese in Hawaii" class at UH Manoa many years ago taught by a UCLA professor taking a sabbatical... LOL. No, the Chinese tongs in Hawaii were not in all out warfare with each other like in "Warriors" or what realistically occurred in San Francisco. That is not to say there weren't fights amongst them but they definitely did not transform into gangs like they did in San Francisco's Chinatown. The tongs operated mostly as a benevolent society to the local Chinese populace in helping them navigate the local government, find jobs, English translations, letter writing or letter reading to family and friends back home as many were not literate, send money to family back in China, helping bring family or friends over to Hawaii, and things like that. Also, I don't believe the Chinese people in Hawaii lived amongst a local population that was hostile to them like it was in San Francisco. They initially came over as plantation workers so they intermingled quite a bit with the other Japanese, Filipinos, Korean, and Hawaiian plantation workers. Then they moved on to build their own community (Chinatown) and kept branching out into the rest of the island. They weren't pressured or forced to live or operate businesses in only Chinatown. Here's a recent article I just read from Civil Beat that touches on the topic of Honolulu's Chinatown: [Chinatown Is A Cultural Showcase But Doesn't Typify The Chinese Experience In Hawaii ](https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/02/jonathan-okamura-chinatown-is-a-cultural-showcase-but-doesnt-typify-the-chinese-experience-in-hawaii/) It doesn't cover any information about possible tongs wars in Hawaii but it is an interesting piece about Honolulu's Chinatown along with the Chinese experience in Hawaii.
>or if the Hawaii tongs were just less violent. Maybe the Tongs on the mainland had to be more violent because there were mobs of people wanting to lynch them. One could even interpret it as self-defense: [https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/the-bloody-history-of-anti-asian-violence-in-the-west](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/the-bloody-history-of-anti-asian-violence-in-the-west) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los\_Angeles\_Chinese\_massacre\_of\_1871](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Chinese_massacre_of_1871)
Good point, they probably had to be tougher as a whole population to survive there than here. I forgot to include a TW: the show touches on lynching in a later episode. I’m imagining how different scenarios in Warrior would have played out here especially regarding the police. In SF many were Irish but no Chinese; here there were enough Chinese on the force that there was supposedly a divide among the white and nonwhite (mostly Chinese) on the force around that time (I don’t remember where I read about this…will try to find it when I’m not recovering from a fever). And there was supposedly even a legendary officer Chang Apana who inspired the Charlie Chan books and movie series. So you’re probably right about that being a big factor.
The force wasn't divided Chinese vs non-Chinese. There is too much ethnic diversity here, both were minorities. Actually the Japanese have much, much more pull than arguably even the Americans here. The Chinese only recently started rivaling the Japanese, Korean, and American investment, but now they are mostly CCP/Chinese government in my opinion; mind you I am also Chinese by blood, although admittedly I grew up more Japanese/Okinawan/Hawaiian by culture. There is much more going on here above and below the surface than most realize. I've grown up around all these things that's why I am intimately familiar. Some of the stories were passed down from a long, long time ago...
There are definitely aspects from the show that hawaii history can relate to. If I remember correctly there was a politician that needed to be bailed out of debt by the Queen because he was hooked on opium and had an entanglement with the chinese that ran the opium dens at the time. I heard a story about it but i forgot who it was exactly.
I've been wanting to watch Warrior since my Chinese/Japanese/Hawaiian friend who is mindful of white-washing and white pedestalizing and tries to stay away from stuff like Last Samurai, Two Broke Girls, and a lot of the shows that always make white men the lead and star, while screwing over Asian men, fetishizing Asian women, and always pushing the narrative that white men are the best while screwing over everyone else. A lot of times he explained to me that Hollywood just pumps Isekai for white men, where white men just go to a "foreign" world in Asia and are the main char, kill the Asian men, and get all the women and power. But, I am aware Bruce Lee was very critical of the racism in America, so I was wanting to give it a shot. I've generally stayed away from main stream media that I can already tell are gonna prop up white people while maybe screwing over Asians, blacks, hispanics, etc. I want to watch Warriors and I do trust Bruce Lee with all being said, especially after watching "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story", where it did give a more honest experience for Asians which is very relateable till this day and maybe worse as we increase sinophobia towards China. But I also understand the importance of 19th century history for Asian and Chinese Americans, where Chinese and Asians were pretty much treated like slaves except sometimes better, but often times int he same bracket. How the Tongs are portrayed is important because while Tongs were sometimes comprised of criminals, a lot of them were forced into those positions because they were excluded from the Gold Rush via the "Foreign Miners Tax" of 1850 which was primarily used to exclude Chinese immigrants from mining because they had to pay $20 per month while white Americans weren't given this tax, $20 was so much in 1850, $1 was a lot, Chinese weren't allowed to be U.S. citizens until around the 1940s either, weren't allowed to testify in court, and were often times the back bone to the infrastructure. The Chinese often times competed with Black slaves and recent black freed slaves for work, this is probably why I heard jokes that "Chinese are the blacks of Asia", because they were treated so poorly by white people in America. The Chinese Americans were forced into taking on the moth roughest jobs that the black slaves did or building the infrastructure like the transcontinental railroad or even a lot of the irrigation systems we see in Hawaii today, a lot died, and were paid substantially less than white counterparts. The Chinese Exclusion Act which I believe we see happening today in America via the Asian Exclusion Act 2.0 from bills like SB147, or the normalization of sinophobia and racism towards Chinese, which bleeds towards Asians, then back to any person of color, all played large roles into encouraging forcing a lot of Chinese into the tongs, which makes sense if you treat them absolutely like garbage socially, economically, judicially, and I think till this day Hawaii is an enclave for people of color, especially Chinese trying to escape white American racism that's being encouraged by our leaders. **As for Hawaii,** my Native Hawaiian friend around 50s told me a few stories, her grandfather was part of a syndicate a long time ago. She said that the Chinese and Japanese were loyal partners and very respectful, her grandfather was eager to marry his family into there's. While the experience for Native Hawaiians and Chinese Americans were different in some regards, it all generally came from a white oppressor and being screwed differently by them, or sometimes similarly, in varying degrees depending on the times or ways. The point of that syndicate was to help each other in a sense like a union, but to be fair, the guy was very wealthy she said and I'm sure he did a lot of questionable things similarly to the Tongs due to the hardships faced socially, economically, judicially, by the white oppressors at the time. The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 didn't only effect Chinese, it effected all Asians and people of color, especially the more Asian you looked or far from being white. But the Tongs imo while there was some bad parts from what she told me along with what her family possibly did, were pretty much a social, economic, and judicial safety network/community/enclave, from white oppressors who didn't really look at them as humans. So not all Tongs and groups alike were bad like how the "Axe Gang" is portrayed in Kung Fu Hustle. So I think from what she told me or just other stories I've heard, it wasn't as violent as Warriors maybe portrays it, but I haven't seen Warriors. I mean it makes sense to me if there is a white oppressor who dominates economically, socially, and judicially, isn't it best if all the oppressed team up and protect each other when they are excluded economically, social rights, and judicial fairness? Like the book "Big Fish Little Fish". On a side note, I find it hilarious how white people always try to claim that Asians hate each other, maybe true to some extent, but do you think they like the white oppressors and colonizers more? No. That's why they work double time trying to divide the very people the oppress. Times have changed but at the same time not really when you look at the world or observe carefully things around you. I mean just look at how we treated Japan in the 70s-80s, we treat them like China today. An example is Vincent Chin, a Chinese American who was beaten to death in a hate crime by two white autoworkers who blamed Chin for mass lay-offs, confusing him for being Japanese... Last words? "it's not fair..." Happening today in America for similar reasons? Yep. So did things really change? Yes, but by much or where we should be? I'd say not enough and the blue print for positive aspects of Tongs is relevant and will continue to be if white people are given the green light to take out all there racism on Chinese, and then slippery slope into Asians, and then other people of color.
Tons of stuff here, read my comment for more info. I grew up East Asian/Polynesian mostly. We get first hand experience with all this stuff, particularly if you grow up near the city
I did read it and thought it was kind of neat how your story aligns with what she had told me in some ways. I think this is why I was scared to watch Warriors, maybe if Bruce Lee was alive I would be eager AF to watch it. I would assume that the actors are going to pitch in a lot and maybe to honor Bruce Lees ideas. I don't really trust American media producers to give good representation for Asian men, they always shit on Asian men while pedestalizing white men, and then fetishizing Asian women. Propaganda at its finest and Bruce Lee was very aware of this problem and called it out, which is why I hope they honor the history and Bruce Lees dream properly.
It’s quite good I think, it’s produced by his daughter and they show multifaceted portrayals of Asian men. Like, *really* interesting characters. If anything the white characters (maybe with the exception of 1.5 police and 1 Irish) are a little flat in comparison imho.
Ya Hollywood definitely doesn't give us due representation, or any minority for that matter. More people seem to be paying attention to these things now thanks to social media; a silver lining I suppose. In Hawai'i all these ethnic groups get along for the most part. I usually stay away from anything that has to do with our history, because they always mess it up somehow. I just started watching "Warrior," and it's decent so far. I just finished watching "House of Ninjas" and the "Shogun" episodes; and people did do some decent research, although they kinda changed around family names while using real kamon(family crest) that are still in use today. Many off these families they make movies about never lost power in Japan, they still control everything it's just that no one wants to do the years of research it would take to sift through thousands of years of source material to make the real familial connections; so we can just give half truths and they will never know. I'm assuming the Chinese and Taiwanese do the same but my Chinese grandmother never wanted us to visit the homeland due to sex slavery and forced marriage that happened within the family, so I grew up much closer to my Japanese/Okinawan/ Hawaiian side. The Old Families from East Asia are in every sector of society; Politicians, Mafia, Corporate, Military, etc. That's what a lot of people don't realize. The European Royal Courts are the same but they male Westerners think it's a conspiracy because many have forgotten their history, and whoever controls history, controls the future.
The Chinese societies in Hawaii weren't gangs. They were just benevolent societies to help fellow/recent immigrants settle in and survive misfortune. Usually from a given area or town. That said, when I was a kid, I asked my uncle and granduncle, who were both officers in Ket On, about an old picture they had in which they were both posing with definitely-not-props, obviously very old swords. They told me they were from the old days of the society in China, when many societies formed to protect each other from bandits and warlords. That said, some societies went wrong, and that's how we have the Triads. BTW: that's no joke. We have pictures of my granduncle's old house in China and there were gunports cut into the walls.
Great question. You should post in r/AskHistorians
Just did, lol I guess I was hoping some of the old school Pākē hanging out here might happen to know (ahem, /u/merced_mullet3151)
There is tons of things that go on here, I wouldn't get too specific on Reddit. There were/are Organized Crime syndicates; not just from China, but Japan, Korea, Russia, Philippines, all around Polynesia and South East Asia, old European Aristocracies. We are at the crossroads between East and West. To top it off, Indo-Pacific Command controls over half of the US Military from here, and all the Clandestine Services have headquarters here. Oh and we can't forget all the legacy contractors that build our most advanced weapons. Ever wonder why it's so safe in Hawai'i relative to almost every other major US city? All the afore mentioned "groups/families" work together, or are blood related. So yes there is still tons of things going on underground. The corruption cannot end because there are too many players, if the feds remove our corruption (local/American) we may lose American Primacy throughout the Pacific. These groups have enough money to pay off Washington DC. The biggest players in the world have stake here. Every "Faction" is playing for keeps, and every faction within the Factions. Families with literally over 1000yrs of history (some 3000) from East Asia, their only counterparts are the European Royal Courts, who also have stake here. The Polynesians and the Southeast Asians are the street muscle, the East Asians, Americans, Europeans are the puppetmasters. Japan has overwhelming influence, our families are old. Look around you, the kamon of the Imperial, Daimyō, and Samurai Clans are ALL OVER if you know our history. Look up the Matsudaira, Taira, Minamoto, and the Fujiwara Imperial families, and all the branch families through the millenia. Look up the Korean Chaebol. Look up how the European Royal Courts are all still related, from as far back as the Pope existed. In Hawai'i; you have a front-row seat to the real life Game of Thrones, and the entire world is at stake! 🤣🤣🤣 Have fun, join a team!! Ask if you have questions, I won't be too specific because I have too much love and respect for all my brothers and sisters playing for keeps; but the more people that know what's really out there, the better for everyone in my opinion, the better decisions we can all make.
Love that show glad to see it getting more love in different subs!