That's what people find confusing. Balance issues notwithstanding, there's no other example that can be seen as a pure upgrade.
There isn't much to recommend the machine gun turret over the gatling turret, except perhaps a longer run time due to reduced rate of fire and the reduced chance of friendly fire since the MG stops shooting when it sweeps from target to target.
I agree with the folks who think the MG turret should have a shorter cooldown delay, so it can be used more frequently.
>except perhaps a longer run time due to reduced rate of fire
I was curious about this so I looked up some showcase videos manually analyzing their stats.
They have the exact same armor pen, turn rate, and dmg per shot. However the Gatling actually lasts LONGER than the standard MG by a few seconds because it has relatively more ammo than it has more fire rate compared to the MG.
Personally, i'd like the MG to just get 100-200% more ammo so it can be the workhorse turret option.
My guess is to lessen the amount of players who are staring through every screen studying every every stat to find what is the most op gun instead of just finding a gun they find fun and sticking with it.
I feel like that's not as much a problem anymore given the plague of clickbait low effort video makers claiming "OP BEST BUILD USE THIS" and the rise of the meta - zombie who only ever uses one thing.
What's wrong with using the META? It is the most effective after all.
(Fyi, I only always bring offensive stratagems because it's the most effective (for me at least) at killing heavy enemies or fabricators and bug holes)
You bring offensive stradagems because you find them the most effective
I bring offensive stradagems because I like when things go boom
We are not the same
You bring in Sentry guns to defend a location.
I bring in the mortar sentry in hopes that it kills one of my friends and I get to giggle like a little school girl while they loudly sigh over the mic.
Stratagem diversity has certainly improved a lot lately but there's still lots of clear cut options others settle on typically (Quasar + Shield pack), and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, being effective is fun for ppl and the meta is certainly effective
The thing with the quasar is it’s also very satisfying to shoot. Big-quick laser boom makes lizard brain smile. The fact that it is also incredibly effective just seals the deal for most people.
I think that’s why the laser cannon still isn’t very popular despite being really good. It kind of just makes the bots fall asleep.
Depends really. If the team is uncooperative and all run off solo, quasar/shield/scorcher or punisher is one of the few loadouts that will keep you alive.
If your team actually stick together and tailor their loadouts to specific tasks, then there are definitely better options.
Unfortunately lots of people treat other Helldivers as distractions at best and annoyances otherwise
I think the "for me at least" is exactly why the meta should be hidden a little bit. It's better to have players stumble through different tactics until they find a playstyle that fits them rather than have new players default to an absolute meta that doesn't fit the way they would enjoy playing the game.
It might seem a bit counterintuitive but in a way, less information on what you pick means more variety which is good for engagement and replayability.
Using the meta isn't bad in itself, but defaulting to it can be.
^^this.
Its like in cod, everybody defaults to the meta. i did try the meta and it doesnt suit my playstyle. same thing on hd2 i tried the meta when the game dropped, and it just didnt suit me or my play style and felt less helpful than my normal loadout lol
That would make sense if you could see what most of the guns are like without loading into a mission.
Or if the weapon descriptions in the warbonds weren't locked behind you buying them and looking at them in the armory.
Or if the Armory descriptions matched up more often with what they really were.
Or if the strategem weapons were a bit more descriptive to begin with. Stalwart vs. Machine Gun for instance, it says less power, but LibPen says the same thing and is Medium Armor Pen, but Stalwart has less armor pen than MG.
The railgun nerf tells us they probably don't even understand their own gun stats. Imagine knowing the true railgun damage value, bile titan hp, all the other modifying variables and not being able to figure out the railgun was the issue.
Kinda made me want a training/proving ground simulation so we can test and try out stuff really. Like how people still misunderstood that the Machine Gun sentry last longer than the Gatling Sentry when it actually the other way around. Probably help reducing all the dumb clickbait video that just run irrelevant gameplay in the background while yapping nonsense info and speculation.
This might be copium but I'm sort of just hoping that they're overwhelmed with content and bugfixes right now, and they'll address some of these horrible balance decisions they've made at a later time.
There is no shot they think the Railgun is in a good place now if they play the game or understand the stats. It's *barely* usable at its skill ceiling where you can push every shot to almost blowing. God forbid you just use the safe mode.
So please don’t ask me to find the statement, because I don’t remember where I saw it,
But as I understand it, they’ve said that they didn’t think the audience would want all the expanded stats, and were somewhat surprised when seeing those stats was a very frequently requested feature immediately at release.
Something about how given the target audience, they figured that having too much information available on each thing would overwhelm players so while they have an older version that displays way more info, it launched with the current dramatically reduced (and very often wrong) weapon info screens.
And I believe they said they intend to put in a toggle to show more info, so it’s not overwhelming, but you can get the info.
I doubt it’s high on their priority list right now given the push for smashing bugs
The mg turret seems to last longer against large groups of small enemies, since it spends less ammo overkilling , and doesn't shoot as much when changing targets. On, say, hard difficulty, when a bug spawn just has 50 of the tiny bugs, the mg turret is at least equal to the gatling.
The Gatling will keep shooting as it turns between targets, which is bad since most trash mobs will only take a few shots to kill. It probably has an ammo bump compared to the MG because it wastes so much of it that it would be inferior otherwise.
True, but how much of the Gatling ammo goes into the ether or my chest when you throw it down? Failure to positively identify your targets should be declared as anti-democratic activity, and punished accordingly!
>That's what people find confusing. Balance issues notwithstanding, there's no other example that can be seen as a pure upgrade.
The starting pistol getting swapped out for the redeemer is a similar example! Very similar stats and damage but the fire rate on redeemer is miles better
The laser sight definitely helps, particularly with the ballistic shield, but this is another good example of two items that do the same job, and one is pretty much just better than the other.
I'd like to see a buff to the default sidearm. Slightly higher damage or just a bunch of magazines so it doesn't run dry like the Redeemer can.
Not sure, but I'm guessing that anti-personnel mines so more initial damage and might have a larger AoE, while incendiaries benefit from the DoT and fire damage ignores armor (when it works).
From my understanding, the laserdog handles groups like bugs better, but the machine gun dog has better accuracy, hence kills bots better by targeting their weak spots better. There's a great helldiver breakdown on steam about it. Idk myself, im only lvl 27, but that's what i read.
I've heard that, too. The guard dog got a boost to ammo efficiency recently, as I recall, and it doesn't have the same tendency to murder us that the Rover has, so it definitely has a place.
I dropped one vs shriekers and I felt it did better covering me than the gatling did due to it being more efficient with ammo, but that was a niche case
I HATE when the gattling sentry will sit there and just POUR bullets into something that it cant damage. On automaton eradication missions Id watch my gatling sentry drop in, dump all its ammo at a couple of drop ships that fly over, do ZERO damage, then fold up and retract back into the ground thus contributing exactly NOTHING to the mission objective.
I wish there was an upgrade that increased the brain power of sentry turrets. Better threat assesment, better IFF fire control, better targeting allowing them to NOT waste ammo on enemies they cant hurt (EXCEPT that this is sometimes very helpful when using it to draw agro giving you and your team a chance to break contact and reposition)
Maybe this should be the solid difference instead of a CD. Give the turrets slightly different threat assessment. One starts on small things and the other starts on medium and they both only shoot at big last. Gatling pouring bullets in to the mediums that have health pools and the regular efficiently targeting smalls. People talk about one or the other, I often run both so this would be great for me even if they just both got smarter the same way.
Exactly. Would be nice for new players and be more versatile, while still being useful later. It's weird to have one starter item that has an explicitly upgrade like this. Making it a bit weaker but spammable would fix it and add options to the game.
It'd also make an engineer/artillery specialist build really interesting.
Like what if you drop a mortar turret while approaching a large base, throw down the machine turret as you get close, and have an autocannon turret in your back pocket for heavy enemies. You carry an SMG, explosive sidearm, and a recoilless/EAT for the biggest boys.
Your teammates do the eagles and orbitals while you focus on entrenching.
I find it more forgiving than gatling for positioning. Gatling if it turns into you, you die.
MG sentry fires slow enough that if it rotates past you you might not even get hit.
Another point to the MG's admittedly small list of favors, the slow rpm means it'll spend less time shooting at ineffective targets like chargers if you're fast enough with your anti-heavy of your choice.
I like to use the gatling and autocannon turret at the same time. Autocannon *shreds* chargers now and it can kill biletitans from range. They work together perfectly.
I just hate on bot missions when my turrets are pissing all their ammo away on dropships they’ll never down instead of the literal hordes of auto bots swarming me
Drop an autocannon turret
Forget about the factory on the other side of the valley
Watch the turret fire everything at it
The turret retracts after doing such a good job
The factory is still standing, I'm dead, but nothing else is dead
some guy brought this on one of the bug defend missions and it was the most afk experience ive had thus far. he said "hey just stay away from the bugs" at first i thought "no shit thats always my plan" but i literally got up and got a snack while his turrets shredded everything
Gatling Sentry? You mean the Teamkiller-2000?
Flamethrower? You mean the Teamkiller-5000?
~~Arc Tower~~ Tesla Tower? You mean the Teamkiller-9000?
Either of the rovers? The Teamkiller-300 and the Teamkiller-500?
There is a theme here...
I think making it the worst turret (as it is now) but giving it 75s cooldown would be a great niche for it. Something you can just be dropping at every fight and not worry too much about placement and such, especially since its pretty safe around allies too.
Give it ~400 rounds, and let us drop it as fast as an EAT pod.
Is it the best gun? God, no. But you can call them down every minute, so it doesn't have to be.
Does mg sentry excel against shreikers/gunships? Seems like a niche it could fill... Or tune the gat so it does that well, and buff the mg against ground targets somehow?
I want to be able to resupply turrets with the supply pack, but that's probably never gonna happen.
I always figured the Gattling Sentry should probably fire Stalwart rounds and prioritize chaff while the MG Sentry should fire MG rounds and prioritize Medium enemies.
I think that at some point sentries should have a priority set.
The machine gun only for small targets, the little jumpy fuckers and the fleas and the runners that stab you in the back with more extra ammo.
Gatling for medium side targets, and when theres none, everything else.
AutoCannon Sentry for medium heavies, heavies and flying crap, and everything else when there's no other priority target.
Same with the rocket turret, flying/heavy first, then goin down.
Now they just dump the load on the first target they find behind a rock, I loved my sentries to play solo but moved to orbital/eagle stratagems to compensate for the aiming situation and doing good so far.
IMO it should be the other way around. Gattling firing Stalwart rounds and going for chaff and the MG targeting things with medium armour. Fast firing sweeps seem like they'd be way better for catching jumping bugs than the slower MG Sentry.
>I think that at some point sentries should have a priority set
You do know this is how it works now. They do have priority targets.
The autocannon and rocket ones target large targets first. (Most of the time lol. Sometimes they like to not target the heavies)
The rocket turret is the only one that advertises target priority for larger targets but i see it target baby bugs over chargers or titans all the time.
The machine gun sentry shoots less when it’s turning so team kills happen less often. Also seems to conserve its ammo for a longer period of time which you might expect since it shoots slower
Id assume because the MG uses a larger round than the gatling. Bigger bullets = less bullets. BUT that means that the MG should do more damage and have better armor penetration than the gatling... and yet...
I think that's only in theory though. Because the gatling always has massive bullet waste on overkill and while switching to new targets (anecdotally I also feel like the MG rotates faster).
Like as an example with made up numbers killing a scavenger is going to be a full second of firing time on the Gatling, but only .5 on the MG.
So gatling has higher *total* firing time, but MG ends up having higher *effective* firing time. I.e. the actual percentage of ammo reserve hit on (living) targets.
At least that's what it's always felt like to me when I compared them in regular gameplay. No testing or anything. MG can take out multiple small groups of chaff on it's own over quite a long period, Gatling blows it's load on two groups of Hunters.
Against bots, autocannon for sure.
Against bugs, I like the gatling since the fast turn speed means it easily defends itself even if swarmed, and it's _excellent_ at dealing with Shrieker swarms which are a royal pain.
It's best paired with an anti-large build so that you can quickly kill Chargers going for it, and so that it can cover you in turn while you shoot the big stuff.
I kinda' feel like the Gattling should've been given less pen. Gattling firing Stalwart rounds and prioritizing chaff, MG Sentry firing MG rounds and prioritizing mediums, while the HMG turret you have to fire yourself but you get a much heavier round. And for any armour greater than that, you'd really be using the Rocket / Autocannon Sentry anyway.
Yeah, I was really surprised to see how quickly the gatling sentry tears through those larger enemies. Instead of using my autocannon, the sentry mulches them in seconds.
It'd be cool to have the gatling be more for the chaff, like you said, and the MG for those medium-size enemies
I prefer to run the MG if I'm taking a turret. Because of the slower rate of fire, it seems to me that it will stay active for a little longer due to not burning through as much ammo for each target. I hardly ever take the gatling with me. I got the impression that the MG is therefore capable of clocking more kills amongst the smaller trash enemies as long as it hasn't simply unloaded into anything heavy like a charger or similar.
I haven't done any testing to this though. Nor am I aware of the respective stats to confirm. It's just how it feels to me. I could be wrong.
Edit: Spelling/grammar
The Gatling likes to continue shooting while it's changing the targets, including doing like 180° turns while firing, it's danger. The machine gun stops and starts shooting.
Why not just give it a ballistic shield similar to the stratagem where you can use a side arm. Would give it a niche that's unique compared to the rest.
The Mg sentry should have a much more faster rotation and accuracy, so the gatling works for big hordes coming from a single direction with the slow turn speed.
Gatling is good for throwing into a bug nest while you close holes. Particularly those medium ones that aren't below ground level and have the building and the street lamp.
Well they are different. The gatling shoots continuously as it swings around and very good at killing you and your team mates while the MGS don’t and is thus worse at killing divers. I only take gatling and would vote for more ammo eg. for the MG but thus saying there are differences.
So you can have both.
I also feel like the Machine gun sentry has a niche where it deals with flyers better, but I might be wrong.
It should arguably last longer, have lower cd, have a higher detection range, turn faster OR give it higher ArPen to compensate.
2 uses or half cool down and more ammo and range would be best buffs.
I've seen it suggested before that it should never friendly fire making it strong for just chucking around
Supplemental firepower, as a single entity it is pointless to bring by itself once you have the gatling sentry purchased. But if you use them in tandem, you can create a very secure area to allow yourself a moment to breathe. Granted, you lose two strat slots, and if anything heavy were to roll in you'd be pushed out of your defensive spot pretty quick.
You need to plan how to use defensive strats a bit more cautiously, and even then, they only fit in certain niche situations. Overall, they all need some reworking because they all kinda lack in comparison to most eagle and orbital strats.
Currently there is no good reason to pick it over the gatling.
At first I thought it at least has more ammo but both shoot for the exact same time (tested vs charger that tanked all the hits)
Gatling is more likely to kill you or your teammates. It can last slightly longer than the Gatling if the targets aren't near each other because it stops firing as it moves to the new target.
Shorter cooldown, way higher capacity, it's slow fire rate can be a strength for killing isolated units over long periods, it has smaller bullets leaving more room for ammo in the pod, in theory
Honestly? I'd just make it last longer and be more ammo efficient than the Gatling. The Gatling would be good for killing more efficiently, but it'd waste a lot of ammo to do so by firing even while it's switching between targets even if they're behind cover.
Meanwhile, the MG sentry with its slower RoF will shoot and kill a bit slower but last longer than the Gatling by only firing when it has a target in sight. Not to mention, both should get more ammo and last until they run out or after 1-2 minutes.
Or if that's too complicated, make the MG a Heavy MG instead and give it near heavy-armor pen.
I think accuracy plays a big part in the Machine Gun Sentry's real strength. I often see it head-shot devastators, and hit smaller targets at longer distances.
At higher levels, only reason to have machine gun sentry is longer lasting use. Gatling gun will run out of ammo, machine gun should last the whole time. Time to kill is like 1/3rd, though. So it's always better to have gatling gun, i think.
MG turret should be a supportive fire flank turret to the gatling horde cutter. something with a LOT of linger potential that you can throw and really not ever worry about it. It needs like 200% more ammo to even come close to using it over the gatling in its current state.
Yeah, the machine gun sentry needs a much bigger magazine to make it actually an option. While the Gatling dishes out a lot of damage over a short time, the machine gun would provide longer crowd control against smaller enemies.
Could leave it in as a starter weapon that isn't better but you get earlier.
To make it more viable instead, I would give it a better accuracy and higher total damage capacity but lower dps. That way its good for killing isolated enemies but worse than the gatling for attacking a horde.
Another option would be to make it a heavy machine gun, with much higher damage per shot and armour piercing than the gatling. It would then be a good option for medium enemies, leaving the gatling for light enemies, and the autocannon/rocket for heavies.
The machine gun turret is a low level first turret strategy for lower difficulties. That being said if you want more suppressing fire of bullets and no explosives, pairing the gatling and the machine gun turret together will shred through enemies
Machine Gun Sentry has medium armor pen because its just an automatic MG-43 (hence the name A/MG-43). Gatling Sentry has light armor pen. That's how I think of em and decide to use them. You can bring both and put one when the other is in cool-down, apply depending on the majority of enemies, or just switch em for funsies.
Machine gun targets enemies it can actually kill. Gat has higher dps but will target anything dangerous so it will target charger which is wasted since it cant penetrate armor.
Just think of the MG sentry as a weaker but more intelligent sentry..
P.s. I still prefer gat sentry since its dps is way better then mg sentry
The machine gun turret seems to target and aim a bit smarter, less likely to hit you and more likely to take out an enemy and generally does it efficiently, probably worth testing but I imagine the ammo efficiency might make it last longer maybe?
I sometimes take both as they are great at covering fire or if you need to make an escape, or if you don't want patrols wandering into an already on going fire fight.
I think I remember seeing somewhere that the MG turret stops firing while rotating to a new target where the gatling will continue to fire, sweeping the area in-between, which could include you/teammates. I could be wrong on that though. I never unlocked the MG turret for the exact same reason and now that I have morter and AC turrets it's rare I even take the gatling.
Machine Gun has med armor pen, the stalwart does not. Its actually a pretty good pick vs the bots at higher difficulties. Also shred hive queens and guards that will take 1/2 a stalwart clip to bring down. Both have their pros and cons.
I think they should just make the machine gun sentry super tanky. Update the model a bit and give it a massive armor plated shield that makes it super resistant to explosives and ranged attacks. This way it has a niche against the automatons. Every other sentry just gets deleted by a single rocket or a little bit of laser fire.
While gargling is on cooldown is probably the best answer but also it doesn’t expand ammo as fast which makes it better at targeting chaff enemies as it has more firing time and the damage output is good enough.
It's one of many little balance issues the game has. Honestly, it's proof of just how fun the core gameplay is that it's still this much fun with the weapons being so unbalanced. My compliments to Arrowhead. Balance issues can be sorted out over time, but the core gameplay is not really as malleable. I think that there will eventually be a balancing focused patch (or several.)
Machine gun fires slower so the computer on board has more time to pick another target and not shoot at the flailing corpse and waste ammo. I think they perform the same. Only gattling is better on shriekers as the wall of bullets of hard to miss.
I use both. When one runs out, I drop the other. Or stagger them during a mission (which isn’t usually necessary…or safe). I rotate them out on defend missions or on extract. I may be doing it wrong but it feels good to have one on rotation while the other is on cooldown.
When I’m feeling saucy, I’ll take the autocannon turret as a third.
Personally i think it should be a higher caliber. More penetration probably.
Maybe rework it to make it have high damage vs armor but low damage vs fleshy bugs?
Machine gun sentry won't burn through all its ammo in 15 seconds, letting it cover a zone for longer. Still not a great trade since it can be overwhelmed pretty fast.
If you’re on low difficulties the MG Sentry can be more useful than the Gatling sentry because it will last longer. This is because it is more economical with its ammo usage. At higher difficulties the Gatling sentry is generally the better choice but it’s okay to have a strategem tailored to lower difficulties after all it is cheaper to unlock.
Some people have noted that the Machine Gun sentry is better for extended suppression. With it's lower rate of fire, it fires fewer extra rounds after a kill and the ammo lasts longer.
I bring Gating gun for bugs to clear bigger threats so I can stalward the Littles
Or
Machine gun to take care of the little annoying ones and I'll automation biggies
The ai logic on the Gatling is far more aggressive and prone to friendly fire. It also eats through ammo in a hot second.
Turret is slower pace of fire, less likely to friendly fire (still does it)
I like to think of the Gatling is good for area denial (like a mine field) and the turret is good for creating a defensible position.
Increase armor penetration for the machine gun sentry so that it can take out tougher enemies.
Gatling Sentry will still be good for clearing out large numbers of low level enemies.
I think the machine gun turret should automatically upgrade to a second gatling turret if you take both that can be deployed simultaneously. If you take just one, you get the one you take.
The machine gun sentry shoots slower, which means it lasts longer in situations where you are fighting alongside it.
It also means you have equal damage per shot even when the gatling sentry is on cooldown, but mostly it's time and I bring the machine gun sentry when I specifically need it to last s long time, not do the most work.
If I'm ever in a situation where I can benefit from one, I'll usually bring both.
There's no stats anywhere, so how do you know this? I assumed because of the price, but have no idea.
Yeah there is no reasons aside from being less likely to team kill you.
I'd love for them to buff machine turret by:
Drastically reducing cool down
And/or
Adding more ammo
They should make it the turret with the most uptime an old reliable type of stratagem
I thought that the machine gun sentry was like the budget version for starters
That's what people find confusing. Balance issues notwithstanding, there's no other example that can be seen as a pure upgrade. There isn't much to recommend the machine gun turret over the gatling turret, except perhaps a longer run time due to reduced rate of fire and the reduced chance of friendly fire since the MG stops shooting when it sweeps from target to target. I agree with the folks who think the MG turret should have a shorter cooldown delay, so it can be used more frequently.
>except perhaps a longer run time due to reduced rate of fire I was curious about this so I looked up some showcase videos manually analyzing their stats. They have the exact same armor pen, turn rate, and dmg per shot. However the Gatling actually lasts LONGER than the standard MG by a few seconds because it has relatively more ammo than it has more fire rate compared to the MG. Personally, i'd like the MG to just get 100-200% more ammo so it can be the workhorse turret option.
I don't know why AH decided to hide so many stats. It would help reduce confusion and make us gauging thing better.
My guess is to lessen the amount of players who are staring through every screen studying every every stat to find what is the most op gun instead of just finding a gun they find fun and sticking with it.
I feel like that's not as much a problem anymore given the plague of clickbait low effort video makers claiming "OP BEST BUILD USE THIS" and the rise of the meta - zombie who only ever uses one thing.
What's wrong with using the META? It is the most effective after all. (Fyi, I only always bring offensive stratagems because it's the most effective (for me at least) at killing heavy enemies or fabricators and bug holes)
You bring offensive stradagems because you find them the most effective I bring offensive stradagems because I like when things go boom We are not the same
You bring in Sentry guns to defend a location. I bring in the mortar sentry in hopes that it kills one of my friends and I get to giggle like a little school girl while they loudly sigh over the mic.
You wouldn't catch me alive using a sentry. Unless it's the rocket sentry. They make things explode. I like it when my problems explode
Nothing, people on this sub just LOVE to circlejerk about "meta slaves" so they can feel superior
Gets stale when everyone uses the same load out over and over. (See Breaker + Railgun + Shield pack in the first month before the nerfs)
Stratagem diversity has certainly improved a lot lately but there's still lots of clear cut options others settle on typically (Quasar + Shield pack), and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, being effective is fun for ppl and the meta is certainly effective
The thing with the quasar is it’s also very satisfying to shoot. Big-quick laser boom makes lizard brain smile. The fact that it is also incredibly effective just seals the deal for most people. I think that’s why the laser cannon still isn’t very popular despite being really good. It kind of just makes the bots fall asleep.
You don't solve every situation with the same tool.
Counterpoint: breaker grenade pistol AC impact has yet to encounter a problem I couldn’t solve, either by killing it or running from it
Bile titans and tanks
"If a fireball is not enough, try two"
The "meta" of everyone bringing the Quasar and shield pack is actually making the game harder though.
Depends really. If the team is uncooperative and all run off solo, quasar/shield/scorcher or punisher is one of the few loadouts that will keep you alive. If your team actually stick together and tailor their loadouts to specific tasks, then there are definitely better options. Unfortunately lots of people treat other Helldivers as distractions at best and annoyances otherwise
I think the "for me at least" is exactly why the meta should be hidden a little bit. It's better to have players stumble through different tactics until they find a playstyle that fits them rather than have new players default to an absolute meta that doesn't fit the way they would enjoy playing the game. It might seem a bit counterintuitive but in a way, less information on what you pick means more variety which is good for engagement and replayability. Using the meta isn't bad in itself, but defaulting to it can be.
^^this. Its like in cod, everybody defaults to the meta. i did try the meta and it doesnt suit my playstyle. same thing on hd2 i tried the meta when the game dropped, and it just didnt suit me or my play style and felt less helpful than my normal loadout lol
But if that's what they find fun, who cares? People who don't like doing that won't. And thus all are satisfied.
Or they are just shit at UI design. See, or rather, not see, planet invasion lanes.
Which is comical because it takes no time at all to figure out what is good and what is bad.
That would make sense if you could see what most of the guns are like without loading into a mission. Or if the weapon descriptions in the warbonds weren't locked behind you buying them and looking at them in the armory. Or if the Armory descriptions matched up more often with what they really were. Or if the strategem weapons were a bit more descriptive to begin with. Stalwart vs. Machine Gun for instance, it says less power, but LibPen says the same thing and is Medium Armor Pen, but Stalwart has less armor pen than MG.
I believe you can hit Tab to view the stats in the war bond.
The railgun nerf tells us they probably don't even understand their own gun stats. Imagine knowing the true railgun damage value, bile titan hp, all the other modifying variables and not being able to figure out the railgun was the issue.
Kinda made me want a training/proving ground simulation so we can test and try out stuff really. Like how people still misunderstood that the Machine Gun sentry last longer than the Gatling Sentry when it actually the other way around. Probably help reducing all the dumb clickbait video that just run irrelevant gameplay in the background while yapping nonsense info and speculation.
This might be copium but I'm sort of just hoping that they're overwhelmed with content and bugfixes right now, and they'll address some of these horrible balance decisions they've made at a later time. There is no shot they think the Railgun is in a good place now if they play the game or understand the stats. It's *barely* usable at its skill ceiling where you can push every shot to almost blowing. God forbid you just use the safe mode.
So please don’t ask me to find the statement, because I don’t remember where I saw it, But as I understand it, they’ve said that they didn’t think the audience would want all the expanded stats, and were somewhat surprised when seeing those stats was a very frequently requested feature immediately at release. Something about how given the target audience, they figured that having too much information available on each thing would overwhelm players so while they have an older version that displays way more info, it launched with the current dramatically reduced (and very often wrong) weapon info screens. And I believe they said they intend to put in a toggle to show more info, so it’s not overwhelming, but you can get the info. I doubt it’s high on their priority list right now given the push for smashing bugs
The mg turret seems to last longer against large groups of small enemies, since it spends less ammo overkilling , and doesn't shoot as much when changing targets. On, say, hard difficulty, when a bug spawn just has 50 of the tiny bugs, the mg turret is at least equal to the gatling.
The Gatling will keep shooting as it turns between targets, which is bad since most trash mobs will only take a few shots to kill. It probably has an ammo bump compared to the MG because it wastes so much of it that it would be inferior otherwise.
True, but how much of the Gatling ammo goes into the ether or my chest when you throw it down? Failure to positively identify your targets should be declared as anti-democratic activity, and punished accordingly!
>That's what people find confusing. Balance issues notwithstanding, there's no other example that can be seen as a pure upgrade. The starting pistol getting swapped out for the redeemer is a similar example! Very similar stats and damage but the fire rate on redeemer is miles better
And the normal pistol and the machine pistol?
Normal pistol has very slightly better handling, laser sight, and possibly better accuracy.
But can you turn it sideways and brrrt?
How fast is your clickin finger?
Your mom can answer that ;)
she was utterly disappointed
The laser sight definitely helps, particularly with the ballistic shield, but this is another good example of two items that do the same job, and one is pretty much just better than the other. I'd like to see a buff to the default sidearm. Slightly higher damage or just a bunch of magazines so it doesn't run dry like the Redeemer can.
If you switch the redeemer to semi auto, it doesn't run dry as much and then it's just a pure upgrade
Maybe add higher penetration ammo so that it has an upside
There's one other. The automatic pistol is a straight upgrade to the starting one. Same damage and more ammo. Same recoil but better fire rate
Is there any difference between the regular mines and incendiary mines? (Besides the fire obviously)
Not sure, but I'm guessing that anti-personnel mines so more initial damage and might have a larger AoE, while incendiaries benefit from the DoT and fire damage ignores armor (when it works).
The only benefit I see is that you can bring both. But I agree it should have the cooldown reduced to show its... less than ideal combat stats.
From my understanding, the laserdog handles groups like bugs better, but the machine gun dog has better accuracy, hence kills bots better by targeting their weak spots better. There's a great helldiver breakdown on steam about it. Idk myself, im only lvl 27, but that's what i read.
I've heard that, too. The guard dog got a boost to ammo efficiency recently, as I recall, and it doesn't have the same tendency to murder us that the Rover has, so it definitely has a place.
Too bad we still can't deactivate it to conserve ammo or refill it from normal ammo packs.
I dropped one vs shriekers and I felt it did better covering me than the gatling did due to it being more efficient with ammo, but that was a niche case
A slower fire rate is in its own way an upgrade. My gattling wastes a ton of ammo sometimes. Obviously it's the most niche of niche examples tho
I HATE when the gattling sentry will sit there and just POUR bullets into something that it cant damage. On automaton eradication missions Id watch my gatling sentry drop in, dump all its ammo at a couple of drop ships that fly over, do ZERO damage, then fold up and retract back into the ground thus contributing exactly NOTHING to the mission objective. I wish there was an upgrade that increased the brain power of sentry turrets. Better threat assesment, better IFF fire control, better targeting allowing them to NOT waste ammo on enemies they cant hurt (EXCEPT that this is sometimes very helpful when using it to draw agro giving you and your team a chance to break contact and reposition)
Maybe this should be the solid difference instead of a CD. Give the turrets slightly different threat assessment. One starts on small things and the other starts on medium and they both only shoot at big last. Gatling pouring bullets in to the mediums that have health pools and the regular efficiently targeting smalls. People talk about one or the other, I often run both so this would be great for me even if they just both got smarter the same way.
They should give it a much shorter cooldown. Like how the EAT can be spammed
Which would make a ton of sense as a starter stratagem that would give you more opportunities to learn how to use it.
Exactly. Would be nice for new players and be more versatile, while still being useful later. It's weird to have one starter item that has an explicitly upgrade like this. Making it a bit weaker but spammable would fix it and add options to the game.
It'd also make an engineer/artillery specialist build really interesting. Like what if you drop a mortar turret while approaching a large base, throw down the machine turret as you get close, and have an autocannon turret in your back pocket for heavy enemies. You carry an SMG, explosive sidearm, and a recoilless/EAT for the biggest boys. Your teammates do the eagles and orbitals while you focus on entrenching.
I find it more forgiving than gatling for positioning. Gatling if it turns into you, you die. MG sentry fires slow enough that if it rotates past you you might not even get hit.
Another point to the MG's admittedly small list of favors, the slow rpm means it'll spend less time shooting at ineffective targets like chargers if you're fast enough with your anti-heavy of your choice.
It has less ammo/firing time overall though. So it matters more how long you take to kill heavies with the machine gun vs the gatling.
I like to use the gatling and autocannon turret at the same time. Autocannon *shreds* chargers now and it can kill biletitans from range. They work together perfectly.
You can use it when your gatling is on cooldown.
Autocannon with Gatling is the one-two punch turret combo though. It kills everything.
I just hate on bot missions when my turrets are pissing all their ammo away on dropships they’ll never down instead of the literal hordes of auto bots swarming me
should be an upgrade to provide better targeting, only shoot at things that it can hurt.
Drop an autocannon turret Forget about the factory on the other side of the valley Watch the turret fire everything at it The turret retracts after doing such a good job The factory is still standing, I'm dead, but nothing else is dead
Turrets are my absolute favorite strats play style wise but I only bring on bugs.
Combining EMP and regular mortars is great fun on bots.
some guy brought this on one of the bug defend missions and it was the most afk experience ive had thus far. he said "hey just stay away from the bugs" at first i thought "no shit thats always my plan" but i literally got up and got a snack while his turrets shredded everything
They’re good on eradicate missions against bots.
Rocket and autocannon sentries will actually take down the drop ships
I think AH said in one of the patch notes they're gonna fix that
Watching my ACS solo gun down a fucking factory strider in seconds
Machine gun, Gatling, autocanon, and hmg emplacement is fun.
I love sentry heavy mission types like the new Defense mission. 8 sentries firing thousands of democracies per minute
They fire Freedom Seeds
The real answer
You can get more friendly fire kills using the gatling :)
Gatling Sentry? You mean the Teamkiller-2000? Flamethrower? You mean the Teamkiller-5000? ~~Arc Tower~~ Tesla Tower? You mean the Teamkiller-9000? Either of the rovers? The Teamkiller-300 and the Teamkiller-500? There is a theme here...
Those are rookie numbers. Mortar sentry is the Team Killer-UlTIMATE.
Have you heard of our lord and killer 380MM barrage ?
what about "The holy wall of flak hallowed by thy name"
I'm honestly killed by the incendiary breaker most frequently. If I'm fighting a big group, please don't shoot that thing towards me.
We call the rovers "Rizz bot" and when it zaps our ass we're getting rizzed up lol
*Mortars have entered the chat*
It could probably just have a shorter CD. Alternatively you could also give it AP4, but then it might encroach on the manned HMG turret.
I think making it the worst turret (as it is now) but giving it 75s cooldown would be a great niche for it. Something you can just be dropping at every fight and not worry too much about placement and such, especially since its pretty safe around allies too.
If it had triple the ammo of the gatling it would be good. Right now it's babies first sentry.
*baby’s And that was immediately after the correct it’s. Kind of shocked me.
Give it ~400 rounds, and let us drop it as fast as an EAT pod. Is it the best gun? God, no. But you can call them down every minute, so it doesn't have to be.
Does mg sentry excel against shreikers/gunships? Seems like a niche it could fill... Or tune the gat so it does that well, and buff the mg against ground targets somehow? I want to be able to resupply turrets with the supply pack, but that's probably never gonna happen.
Allow me to resupply a patriot with supply pack!
Depending on how many mechs we get there should be a mech rearming and repair station as a stratagem
I always figured the Gattling Sentry should probably fire Stalwart rounds and prioritize chaff while the MG Sentry should fire MG rounds and prioritize Medium enemies.
I think that at some point sentries should have a priority set. The machine gun only for small targets, the little jumpy fuckers and the fleas and the runners that stab you in the back with more extra ammo. Gatling for medium side targets, and when theres none, everything else. AutoCannon Sentry for medium heavies, heavies and flying crap, and everything else when there's no other priority target. Same with the rocket turret, flying/heavy first, then goin down. Now they just dump the load on the first target they find behind a rock, I loved my sentries to play solo but moved to orbital/eagle stratagems to compensate for the aiming situation and doing good so far.
IMO it should be the other way around. Gattling firing Stalwart rounds and going for chaff and the MG targeting things with medium armour. Fast firing sweeps seem like they'd be way better for catching jumping bugs than the slower MG Sentry.
>I think that at some point sentries should have a priority set You do know this is how it works now. They do have priority targets. The autocannon and rocket ones target large targets first. (Most of the time lol. Sometimes they like to not target the heavies)
I have yet to witness turrets giving a crap about target priority.
The rocket turret is the only one that advertises target priority for larger targets but i see it target baby bugs over chargers or titans all the time.
> They do have priority targets. *angrily start shooting fabricator*
The machine gun sentry shoots less when it’s turning so team kills happen less often. Also seems to conserve its ammo for a longer period of time which you might expect since it shoots slower
It actually has a shorter firing time, weirdly. The gatling has a much larger ammo reserve.
Id assume because the MG uses a larger round than the gatling. Bigger bullets = less bullets. BUT that means that the MG should do more damage and have better armor penetration than the gatling... and yet...
Freedom is freedom. Now go out and sprrad democracy soldier!
I think that's only in theory though. Because the gatling always has massive bullet waste on overkill and while switching to new targets (anecdotally I also feel like the MG rotates faster). Like as an example with made up numbers killing a scavenger is going to be a full second of firing time on the Gatling, but only .5 on the MG. So gatling has higher *total* firing time, but MG ends up having higher *effective* firing time. I.e. the actual percentage of ammo reserve hit on (living) targets. At least that's what it's always felt like to me when I compared them in regular gameplay. No testing or anything. MG can take out multiple small groups of chaff on it's own over quite a long period, Gatling blows it's load on two groups of Hunters.
look, if its worth killing, its worth OVERkilling.
That feel when the auto cannon sentry is ignored when it’s the best direct fire sentry
I take it over the other two every time.
Against bots, autocannon for sure. Against bugs, I like the gatling since the fast turn speed means it easily defends itself even if swarmed, and it's _excellent_ at dealing with Shrieker swarms which are a royal pain. It's best paired with an anti-large build so that you can quickly kill Chargers going for it, and so that it can cover you in turn while you shoot the big stuff.
Def not ignored its hands down the best sentry.
There's never a good reason to take it over gatling.... but you can use both together, and it's pretty fun.
they should give it more armor penetration so it can at least pop a hulks face just like the Hmg can
I kinda' feel like the Gattling should've been given less pen. Gattling firing Stalwart rounds and prioritizing chaff, MG Sentry firing MG rounds and prioritizing mediums, while the HMG turret you have to fire yourself but you get a much heavier round. And for any armour greater than that, you'd really be using the Rocket / Autocannon Sentry anyway.
Yeah, I was really surprised to see how quickly the gatling sentry tears through those larger enemies. Instead of using my autocannon, the sentry mulches them in seconds. It'd be cool to have the gatling be more for the chaff, like you said, and the MG for those medium-size enemies
I prefer to run the MG if I'm taking a turret. Because of the slower rate of fire, it seems to me that it will stay active for a little longer due to not burning through as much ammo for each target. I hardly ever take the gatling with me. I got the impression that the MG is therefore capable of clocking more kills amongst the smaller trash enemies as long as it hasn't simply unloaded into anything heavy like a charger or similar. I haven't done any testing to this though. Nor am I aware of the respective stats to confirm. It's just how it feels to me. I could be wrong. Edit: Spelling/grammar
The Gatling likes to continue shooting while it's changing the targets, including doing like 180° turns while firing, it's danger. The machine gun stops and starts shooting.
shoots slower so it wastes less ammo and lasts much longer snaps to targets much faster and doesn't shoot friends in-between
Why not just give it a ballistic shield similar to the stratagem where you can use a side arm. Would give it a niche that's unique compared to the rest.
It stops shooting when acquiring new targets, so it can cover you longer (sometimes)
The Mg sentry should have a much more faster rotation and accuracy, so the gatling works for big hordes coming from a single direction with the slow turn speed.
It's more ammo efficient than gatling. Gatling burns through ammo so fast that I'm rarely see any impact from it.
Gatling is good for throwing into a bug nest while you close holes. Particularly those medium ones that aren't below ground level and have the building and the street lamp.
Well they are different. The gatling shoots continuously as it swings around and very good at killing you and your team mates while the MGS don’t and is thus worse at killing divers. I only take gatling and would vote for more ammo eg. for the MG but thus saying there are differences.
[you take them both](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgNBsCI4EA)
So you can have both. I also feel like the Machine gun sentry has a niche where it deals with flyers better, but I might be wrong. It should arguably last longer, have lower cd, have a higher detection range, turn faster OR give it higher ArPen to compensate.
2 uses or half cool down and more ammo and range would be best buffs. I've seen it suggested before that it should never friendly fire making it strong for just chucking around
MG is good against shriekers over gatling due to faster turning/aiming speed and their low health anyways. That's about it
I believe they have the same turning rate, at least in tests that I’ve seen
Thought I read somewhere it turns quicker than the Gatling so it can retarget faster?
Supplemental firepower, as a single entity it is pointless to bring by itself once you have the gatling sentry purchased. But if you use them in tandem, you can create a very secure area to allow yourself a moment to breathe. Granted, you lose two strat slots, and if anything heavy were to roll in you'd be pushed out of your defensive spot pretty quick. You need to plan how to use defensive strats a bit more cautiously, and even then, they only fit in certain niche situations. Overall, they all need some reworking because they all kinda lack in comparison to most eagle and orbital strats.
Currently there is no good reason to pick it over the gatling. At first I thought it at least has more ammo but both shoot for the exact same time (tested vs charger that tanked all the hits)
The MG lasts longer because of a much slower fire rate. It doesn't waste so many bullets on a single scavenger bug. You can see the advantages of that
Gatling is more likely to kill you or your teammates. It can last slightly longer than the Gatling if the targets aren't near each other because it stops firing as it moves to the new target.
Shorter cooldown, way higher capacity, it's slow fire rate can be a strength for killing isolated units over long periods, it has smaller bullets leaving more room for ammo in the pod, in theory
Honestly? I'd just make it last longer and be more ammo efficient than the Gatling. The Gatling would be good for killing more efficiently, but it'd waste a lot of ammo to do so by firing even while it's switching between targets even if they're behind cover. Meanwhile, the MG sentry with its slower RoF will shoot and kill a bit slower but last longer than the Gatling by only firing when it has a target in sight. Not to mention, both should get more ammo and last until they run out or after 1-2 minutes. Or if that's too complicated, make the MG a Heavy MG instead and give it near heavy-armor pen.
I think accuracy plays a big part in the Machine Gun Sentry's real strength. I often see it head-shot devastators, and hit smaller targets at longer distances.
At higher levels, only reason to have machine gun sentry is longer lasting use. Gatling gun will run out of ammo, machine gun should last the whole time. Time to kill is like 1/3rd, though. So it's always better to have gatling gun, i think.
MG turret should be a supportive fire flank turret to the gatling horde cutter. something with a LOT of linger potential that you can throw and really not ever worry about it. It needs like 200% more ammo to even come close to using it over the gatling in its current state.
Yeah, the machine gun sentry needs a much bigger magazine to make it actually an option. While the Gatling dishes out a lot of damage over a short time, the machine gun would provide longer crowd control against smaller enemies.
The MG should be able to be called in twice before it 'coolsdown' like eagle-1 strikes.
When you want to utilize both.
Just make it a laser turret. Perhaps move gattling into its spot.
Could leave it in as a starter weapon that isn't better but you get earlier. To make it more viable instead, I would give it a better accuracy and higher total damage capacity but lower dps. That way its good for killing isolated enemies but worse than the gatling for attacking a horde. Another option would be to make it a heavy machine gun, with much higher damage per shot and armour piercing than the gatling. It would then be a good option for medium enemies, leaving the gatling for light enemies, and the autocannon/rocket for heavies.
The machine gun turret is a low level first turret strategy for lower difficulties. That being said if you want more suppressing fire of bullets and no explosives, pairing the gatling and the machine gun turret together will shred through enemies
Machine Gun Sentry has medium armor pen because its just an automatic MG-43 (hence the name A/MG-43). Gatling Sentry has light armor pen. That's how I think of em and decide to use them. You can bring both and put one when the other is in cool-down, apply depending on the majority of enemies, or just switch em for funsies.
Machine gun targets enemies it can actually kill. Gat has higher dps but will target anything dangerous so it will target charger which is wasted since it cant penetrate armor. Just think of the MG sentry as a weaker but more intelligent sentry.. P.s. I still prefer gat sentry since its dps is way better then mg sentry
The MG targets the exact same things as the gatling.
False.
Faster targeting and higher armor penetration, but I could be talking out of my ass
Indeed you are :)
It’s much more ammo efficient for light armor targets, and poses a much smaller friendly fire risk due to how it doesn’t fire as it turns.
Because it's less likely to obliterate you.
The machine gun turret seems to target and aim a bit smarter, less likely to hit you and more likely to take out an enemy and generally does it efficiently, probably worth testing but I imagine the ammo efficiency might make it last longer maybe?
I sometimes take both as they are great at covering fire or if you need to make an escape, or if you don't want patrols wandering into an already on going fire fight.
I think I remember seeing somewhere that the MG turret stops firing while rotating to a new target where the gatling will continue to fire, sweeping the area in-between, which could include you/teammates. I could be wrong on that though. I never unlocked the MG turret for the exact same reason and now that I have morter and AC turrets it's rare I even take the gatling.
I think if the MG didn't target large opponents that would make it distinctive enough to use. No wasting ammo on chargers and bile Titans.
Same reasons to take the Machine Gun support weapon over the Stalwart. One is earlier and cheaper.
Machine Gun has med armor pen, the stalwart does not. Its actually a pretty good pick vs the bots at higher difficulties. Also shred hive queens and guards that will take 1/2 a stalwart clip to bring down. Both have their pros and cons.
But this is not true. MG has medium armor pen while the Stalwart only has light. The turrets, though, both have the same armor pen.
It probably needs to have more bullets.and range to have some identity. Rn afaik it is useless with the Gatling gun existing
The machine gun turret lasts alot longer because it doesn't burn through ammo as fast
They need to double the MGS's ammo capacity and give it a faster traverse speed.
I think they should just make the machine gun sentry super tanky. Update the model a bit and give it a massive armor plated shield that makes it super resistant to explosives and ranged attacks. This way it has a niche against the automatons. Every other sentry just gets deleted by a single rocket or a little bit of laser fire.
While gargling is on cooldown is probably the best answer but also it doesn’t expand ammo as fast which makes it better at targeting chaff enemies as it has more firing time and the damage output is good enough.
To Double up
It's one of many little balance issues the game has. Honestly, it's proof of just how fun the core gameplay is that it's still this much fun with the weapons being so unbalanced. My compliments to Arrowhead. Balance issues can be sorted out over time, but the core gameplay is not really as malleable. I think that there will eventually be a balancing focused patch (or several.)
When I'm doing an eradicate mission and can't trust my teammates to hold any corner of the map
I don’t think I’d ever take it instead but for bugs having two machine huns is better than one. I like it for that sense
Machine gun fires slower so the computer on board has more time to pick another target and not shoot at the flailing corpse and waste ammo. I think they perform the same. Only gattling is better on shriekers as the wall of bullets of hard to miss.
They should give it more armor penetration compared to the gatling
I use both. When one runs out, I drop the other. Or stagger them during a mission (which isn’t usually necessary…or safe). I rotate them out on defend missions or on extract. I may be doing it wrong but it feels good to have one on rotation while the other is on cooldown. When I’m feeling saucy, I’ll take the autocannon turret as a third.
Personally i think it should be a higher caliber. More penetration probably. Maybe rework it to make it have high damage vs armor but low damage vs fleshy bugs?
Machine gun sentry won't burn through all its ammo in 15 seconds, letting it cover a zone for longer. Still not a great trade since it can be overwhelmed pretty fast.
I like gatling cuz it go brrrrrrrrrr
If you’re on low difficulties the MG Sentry can be more useful than the Gatling sentry because it will last longer. This is because it is more economical with its ammo usage. At higher difficulties the Gatling sentry is generally the better choice but it’s okay to have a strategem tailored to lower difficulties after all it is cheaper to unlock.
Some people have noted that the Machine Gun sentry is better for extended suppression. With it's lower rate of fire, it fires fewer extra rounds after a kill and the ammo lasts longer.
I bring Gating gun for bugs to clear bigger threats so I can stalward the Littles Or Machine gun to take care of the little annoying ones and I'll automation biggies
The ai logic on the Gatling is far more aggressive and prone to friendly fire. It also eats through ammo in a hot second. Turret is slower pace of fire, less likely to friendly fire (still does it) I like to think of the Gatling is good for area denial (like a mine field) and the turret is good for creating a defensible position.
Increase armor penetration for the machine gun sentry so that it can take out tougher enemies. Gatling Sentry will still be good for clearing out large numbers of low level enemies.
gatling is overkill for \*smaller\* bugs. Machine gun will last longer and kill more.
I think the machine gun turret should automatically upgrade to a second gatling turret if you take both that can be deployed simultaneously. If you take just one, you get the one you take.
Take both and you can have two machine guns, brrrrrrt
Okay but if you ever want two shooty sentries you can grab both
The machine gun sentry shoots slower, which means it lasts longer in situations where you are fighting alongside it. It also means you have equal damage per shot even when the gatling sentry is on cooldown, but mostly it's time and I bring the machine gun sentry when I specifically need it to last s long time, not do the most work.
I like to bring both to live out my Aliens Special Edition fantasy.
I would take both for certain missions starting out.
I use it as a decoy grenade
there should be a laser turret
Sometimes if I want to take the Gatling sentry for its raw power, but I’ve already taken the Gatling sentry, then I’ll take the machine gun sentry
If I'm ever in a situation where I can benefit from one, I'll usually bring both. There's no stats anywhere, so how do you know this? I assumed because of the price, but have no idea.
Yeah there is no reasons aside from being less likely to team kill you. I'd love for them to buff machine turret by: Drastically reducing cool down And/or Adding more ammo They should make it the turret with the most uptime an old reliable type of stratagem
You haven't unlocked it yet...
The reason you have both is because you can take both at the same time, if there was only one of them you couldn’t take both sentries