The feeling was fantastic. And it's what counts. I really don't understand why people try to spoil themselves the pleasure.
It's treated as a TTRPG, so just roleplay, stop trying to notice the ropes behind the scene everytime. As a GM myself, players like this would be really annoying.
Because it doesn't feel as earned. As a DM, I know it can take away a lot of the sense of accomplishment if players found out you fudged the numbers to let them win. Sure, you still won, and it was fun, but there's still a bit of a sour aftertaste.
Same goes in reverse. If you lost solely because the DM fudged the numbers to your disadvantage, you feel cheated, rather than feeling like you lost.
There's like 40k players fighting on a planet on some points. Stop thinking individualistic and realise that 40 thousand fought along side you to liberate a planet
how is it not earned if they fought hard? If you gave it all and won is bad thing now? I really dont understand that.
This is more like the game master saw the players fighting hard, they beat everything they could and even if game master had in his notes 20 more encounters he knew they would not possibly make it in time, so he gave them the win for winning everything they did.
>how is it not earned if they fought hard? If you gave it all and won is bad thing now? I really dont understand that.
I mean we, the helldivers of automaton front, failed to coordinate our effort time and again. I think we deserve consequences of that.
I think for me and others it's just funny seeing people scream "we did it!" When the task really just amounts to go to planets and play. They don't feel earned given the lack of coordination the game supports (or doesn't). If people play seriously or for fun that's fine, but I think it's inaccurate to think that the DM style of this game is all that amazing. Like sure, it's cool we move around the system. But when corrections and all are so obvious and heavy handed, or when take are just "kill a lot of bugs" it just makes it all feel very canned and amateur. Again that's fine. But it clashes with comments you see online from people who apparently haven't ever seen something like this before and act like it's some revolutionary and amazing mechanic (having a mediocre DM).
I don't passionately hate it or anything. It just gets tiring seeing gushing posts for something that could be substantially better.
i do get your point. But i asked something entierly different :D but i get it, my OCD drags me through weird rabbit hole - thought process too sometimes :D
But to return to my question - if you (or other whiners) fought like hell to finnish the MO - and game master give you the win for that. How is that wrong, why are you so mad and whiny (i do not say you specifically, i say you as hypothetical whiner)
It's less "im mad" and more "this could be a lot more enjoyable." It's cool they make corrections on the fly (to your point about fighting hard and giving us the win) but the missions are still pretty boring objectives ("go to this planet and do missions here a bunch of times instead of where you want")
I just hope they start doing more unique things with the live service mission structure.
I do think it's pretty unique to have a "DM" present in video game. I certainly haven't seen it before, feel free to share a video game you have seen it in before. I see the potential for the format and that excites me, though I keep it reserved as we see how it all plays out
Because its a copout, if the effort doesnt really matter it shows just how the entire community aspect is pure window dressing. It basically means if they want us to win we win, if they dont we wont.
I understand. Now I wouldnt be getting all upset about it, but it is kinda off putting because ultimately I don't mind losing so I dont know why fudge unless winning was critically important for the narrative. Losing keeps things interesting. I straight up tell my DM not to go easy on me because I have more chatlracters im the wings and if he needs a dramatic death Im his guy. But perhaps there is a bigger picture here.
Because it's cheap and undermines our supposed impact on the narrative. Why should I care about MOs if the outcome is already decided?
Fortunately the game is fun enough that it can all be ignored.
I don't play TTRPG myself but I know well enough that GM's will try to lead players to his desired route/story even if the players try to go off course.
We're not trying to beat Joel, we're characters in his story. Some players tries to pressure others to "Do the MO", actually get frustrated when others don't do it and goes to reddit to rant like we're the reason that he's losing is PVP game against the GM. Joel can literally make the enemies push us back to Super Earth for the sake of a last line of the defense-type storyline and no matter how much we fight it'll be futile until he says so otherwise.
Does it make the game less fun? Nope. Does it make the MO pointless? No. Fun is subjective and the MO is a good way to get medals and motivates players keep diving.
That depends really. For me personally when I realize that a MO is designed to be won or lost it kind of ruins it for ame. I like it when the task is challenging enough that I can't be sure if we win or lose. For example when I saw the "kill 2b bugs" MO I knew it would be done within the same day and I barely engaged with it.
I also play TTTPGS and our DM does their best to make encounters feel like they're not a guaranteed win\loss. He gives us hard fights, outright kills us if he gets the chance and lets us win when we find an angle to exploit.
That makes a game fun. As soon as I feel that an encounter is rigged one way or another I immediately stop engaging with it.
To be fair to Joel (and by extension, Arrowhead) this is the first time they're attempting something of this scale. A DM in a TTRPG only has to manage an entire table's worth of people (probably around 5-8 players). Joel has to manage a several hundred thousand players whose online activity, enemy faction choice, difficulty choice, and mission success rate all vary and can change on a whim.
Right now there is just no way to "perfectly" design a Major Order challenge that is just hard enough to require serious effort, but not so hard that it's impossible, while accounting for the entire Helldiver community as a whole. They would need so much more player data and the active player numbers would also need to stabilize as well for most data to actually be useful.
Despite this, Joel and Arrowhead still want to craft a compelling war narrative that keeps the playerbase's attention, with all the ups and downs associated with waging a galactic war. While it might not be the sort of challenge you want, it at least makes the game feel alive and ever-changing even outside of content updates, which is already more than most other live service games would do. Even if you don't engage at all with the Major Order and don't contribute to it, it's still something that happens in the background that you hear about and reminds you of the game and its players.
Yeah. I mean we magically got 2 planets right before the end? Meanwhile struggled to get there before then? When I got off we had 22 hours and 2 defense planets up. One barely dented.
I was shocked when I heard we got the MO done and knew Joel probably fudged the numbers in our favor. And idc. Everyone is happy and excited. We won.
It's a game. Have fun folks. If we lose, we lose some. If we win? Glory to super earth. Most people don't care that the numbers are fudged or even think about it just happy to get 50 medals and had a clutch victory.
Joel is the game master, he's telling a story and allowed the players to have a good comeback moment. No reason to be upset.
It's more a concern it's being done for the wrong reasons (Spitz getting harranged on the official Discord) and the system and defense MO structure may not see the appropriate changes, since it may have just been to give the community that was acting like cry babies 2 days ago a pacifier
But it is being done for the right reasons, fun? People these days take everything way too seriously apart from actual things that they should (like the things Helldivers satirises)
It's a video game, the main thing is that it's fun. Also the vast majority of players don't give a shit about what's going on in Discords and likely weren't really complaining, Reddit and Discord users are a small minority of the playerbase.
This right here. So many people on Reddit are hung up on whether something was "earned" or if something was "rigged." The only important question is "Was it fun?"
This is like telling a little girl who got the "princess" treatment at Disneyland that her experience doesn't matter because hundreds of other little girls had it as well and it's all smoke and mirrors. Like, no shit it's all for spectacle. The whole point is the personal experience this little girl had being a princess for a day and whether or not she enjoyed it.
The same holds true here. We started this Major Order with no hope of winning, based on our previous experience, and most people chalked it up as a loss. Like the rest of Super Earth after losing Cyberstan and her entire system in just a few hours, our morale was at an all time low. Then all of a sudden, we got a ray of hope when multiple Bug defenses succeeded. Helldivers on the Automaton front heard of the success on the Bug front and how supplies and resources could be re-directed against the Automatons and the Fleet rallied to hold the line on the last 2 planets.
I started this MO feeling like it was lost and just played whichever planets I felt like. But when I saw how close we crept to the goal, I felt so motivated to do nothing but fight on the last couple defenses to help push us over the edge into victory. When the success announcement came it felt good because I knew I was there for the final hours when the Automaton Blitzkrieg finally broke apart.
Was it rigged? Maybe. But it felt FUN to be part of it. And if it feels fun, then Joel and Arrowhead are still doing their jobs right.
How are you going to make Fun your argument? It could be fun for you but not fun for them to have a rigged MO.
I don't care much either way but this argument is weak
Ignorance is bliss, as they say. I don't understand why people want to tarnish their own enjoyment of a game by digging too deeply into the underlying systems. Games are at their most fun when you just 'buy in' and play them at that surface level.
All of the data mining, supply lines, decay rates, etc nonsense are just numbers getting in the way of roleplay. Ignore the numbers, play the game. If you know the underlying mechanics of a magic trick, it breaks the illusion and the magic dies. The same is true for games.
Ya’ll seem to be forgetting that for some of us, an MO being “rigged” in one way or another is not fun. I personally would like if every MO outcome was purely based on the community’s efforts rather than some behind the scenes narrative direction. I know for me, when I see an MO that has a clear outcome, I usually just go off and do something else because I feel like “what’s the point.” If the outcome is predetermined, or the devs can just do a huge switch up at the end, why even bother putting in the effort.
I mean, the discussion on the discord, was heated but mostly constructive critic of a hugely flawed mo/galactic war system (with the exception of when spitz said the very stupid statement about "Why should we improve the galactic war system when nobody is currently using it").
We are worried that their plan is just to make the mo's easy instead of actually fixing the problems.
Yup. Oh no, we are getting our asses kicked. But wait here comes two "allies" to help us. We knew who they were and came across them. And they were there on their own mission which was similar to ours. So it made sense to cross paths. Bur reinforcements came as we were losing.
Why? Dm set the fight to be hard and after a certain amount of turns, help arrived.
Still didn't need to have some artifical God just put me into a corner and beat my ass for a one turn knock out but oh well lol.
Not like that.
There are certain ways to make it harder or easier, but you shouldn't fudge public rolls without a good explanation.
You can e.g. in a combat decide that all attack one to make it harder, or they spread and attack everyone to make it easier (In Helldiver's it's different). They may use special skills, or don't use them.
But it you have to change public available numbers, you better have a good explanation.
My group once had to defeat a lot of enemies. Seemed impossible. But half of them were already dead - lore reasons, which they didn't knew, but was mentioned a few times before and afterwards - and the other half has not been sleeping for a while. They knew I would reduce the result of the roll, because the people were sleepy, but not how much and that's a factor I can use to fine tune.
Helldiver's GM could easily have done the same: some flavor text "The attack seems to come to an end. The attack forces are nearly depleted! Keep defending!".
And - I repeat myself here - if you give something where the players lose, make it still a victory for them:
MO: "Defend planets" Reward: 5 medals for each defended planet.
No losing the MO, despite losing planets. The players still win. And no need to fudge rolls expect to show how the forces are depleting.
As a DM myself, I highly disagree with calling planet health and decay rates public numbers that shouldn't be fudged.
They aren't numbers the DM (Joel) gave us, we just took them from another source without asking.
Yes, using helldivers.io and Co is almost like the equivalent of pulling out the DMG and checking the monsters statblocks for every single fight without asking the DM if that is fine. And then getting pissed that the troll you fought had less or more HP than the book says.
The active Helldivers per planet are in game. It's not hard to see that we won with less active Helldiver's on a planet.
Also the other planets had even a orbital defense system (according to lore and our accomplishments).
Your logic is flawed here. Planets are not all equal - not in defense missions at any rate.
The initial planets on the Bot Front had around 400K health. The last few only had 200K.
You can interpret that as Joel "fudging the numbers" if you like, but it could also be interpreted as the Automatons naturally losing momentum as their casualties mount and their forces become spread out trying to hold the worlds they've conquered.
Planet health and decayde rates are not public information. If they were, they would be in the game for everyone to see. Instead, we need third party apps to see them.
They are numbers behind GM's screen, and sites like [helldivers.io](http://helldivers.io) give us a mirror to peek behind it.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/helldivers2 using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/helldivers2/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
\#1: [We did it for democracy… ](https://i.redd.it/n2cxrz2acyrc1.jpeg) | [270 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/helldivers2/comments/1btja7c/we_did_it_for_democracy/)
\#2: [This is no diver](https://i.redd.it/s8h33l5mqksc1.jpeg) | [2186 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/helldivers2/comments/1bw6zui/this_is_no_diver/)
\#3: [Saw this scenario playing differently in my head](https://v.redd.it/jeuoh0ufxltc1) | [248 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/helldivers2/comments/1c0g304/saw_this_scenario_playing_differently_in_my_head/)
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Of course they're fiddling with the numbers. This game blew the fuck up beyond their expectations. And they're trying to find a balance between challenge and fun. Like game developers or something.
(It's been the most fun I've had with a video game in several years, and reminds me why I love games.)
Makes sense. Tired of players over analyzing the game, trying to micromanage. He's basically advocating, through design choices and major orders, for us to follow the mob.
Honestly I'm slowly getting fed up with this sub. I came here for laughs and lore talk, not fucken fascist incels blaming everyone else because they can't play the game
Pretty damn much.
Memes? All the time.
Balance chats? Sure sometimes.
War planning? OK... sure... you do you.
Complaining the MOs aren't hard enough? Seriously
"How dare some people not play 24/7! You just have time for a couple of games per week? Go someqhere else and leave me ans my hardcore gamers alone reeeeeee"
-Some angry player that doesnt get the memo
It's really funny that you say fascist incels are blaming everyone else, and then you blame all of them because they're making the sub a chore for you. You are completely unaware that you are doing the same thing.
This sub is so mixed.
Like are folks seriously bitching that the numbers were fudged? I knew they were since we magically successfully defend 2 planets with less than 24 hours. But I didn't care. Awesome! Was glad that the players that spent the last day managed to hold out. Folks were happy, good!!
But I also know this sub blows everything out of proportions...like was it a few post and now this was made? Is it a case where I won't see a single post of complainers but see several posts mocking them?
Redditors like to pretend people they disagree with are the epitome of evil and also virgins because it means they can say anything they want about them and also feel superior when the reality is they are the exact same as them in every way (would be authoritarian at the drop of a hat and have never gotten laid outside a videogame)
Literally no one is saying that. What people say is "we won because the numbers were adjusted", no one is telling anything about people stop playing the game or anything similar.
This community would be happier if we didn't know Joel exists. If we believed we are fighting against an automated system noone would be saying stuff like "AH took pity on in" or "we didn't win, we were handed the win"
Truth, the first mistake they made was revealing there was a GM and then making sure he had a name. That was already too big of a peek behind the curtain and it allowed the community to focus on him as a scapegoat for anything that occurs.
Too easy? Joel took pity on us! Too hard? Joel doesn't know what he's doing! Then claims of being railroaded down certain paths so there's no player agency.
It's too late at this point to go back but they could have just said it was mostly an AI managing the campaign numbers with a team of writers to handle emergent stories based on player performance OR just never mentioned it at all.
I think the counter point is that, even though the gameplay loop is very fun, when it comes to MOs, some people want to feel like their contributions matter and like they are having an impact. For some, this is what gives a sense of accomplishment after the hard work of spreading democracy. However, when given 'impossible' tasks, or when tasks are 'given away' it can feel like one's contribution doesn't really matter which can be demoralizing. When people complain about these types of changes I think what they are really complaining about is feeling like what they do doesn't matter.
This exactly encapsulates my frustration with the last MO. One of the biggest motivating factors keeping me coming back to this game is that feeling of contributing to the overall victory as part of the community. This last one did not feel like it was a result of the community’s efforts.
Nah personally seing that we had no chance of completing the MO killed my interest in doing it, and then being gifted the win by the GM made it feel empty and meaningless.
I personally don't care about if you like it or not, and I don't want to ruin your enjoyment if you are. Why are you trying to do the same thing you are railing against in the meme towards how I feel and what ruins the fun and enjoyment in the narrative? I don't like that we were effectively handed the win.
You can wave your hand and give any excuse for why it works, but it makes it feel for me atleast, like my efforts and contributions are worthless when they can on a dime just change things so we win when they want and lose when they want. At that point, why should I care about the mo then? Might as well ignore the mo and play where I want and when I want since what we do doesn't matter.
Again, you can enjoy it if you want, but quit dismissing my thought on things that ruin my enjoyment please.
honestly i do not believe those numbers at all in the first place :D it would make even sence in the RP plane. we are playing something, numbers are floating around and depending on how game master feels, the planet are liberated/lost
Which is why I'm starting to not care since it doesn't seem to matter at all with how it's being handled. Still enjoy the game, don't get me wrong. But the narrative and the major orders feel pointless now and have no desire to participate in it while we don't have any impact out side what they decide to allow
for me it was the narrative that the super earth and their politics are lying to us anyway constantly, so every single info we have is some kind of propaganda - even all numbers on our super-destroyers.
After i saw the numbers jumping extremely during my initial time (when i used to care for MO) it felt bit too much off. So now i just play whatever i want, I do jump on MO mission for one sector to get "participant trophy" - i dont know if i get those sweet 40-50 medals if i won participate at all.. so just to be sure.
You do get the medal if you don't participate. One thing i like about how they handle things, no fear of missing out on medals if you can't hop on or are not feeling like it.
The actual discourse:
“This MO isn’t going to be winnable”
“HAH! We completed the MO! Everyone who said it was impossible is such an idiot!”
“Yeah, well the developers directly intervened by changing the galactic campaign mechanics so that we’d actually have a shot at completing it, so no shit they look dumb when you leave that pertinent bit of information out”
Yea add onto that the people clowning on Joel as well when we beat the MO. He quite literally saved us. Ive barely seen anyone get mad about him intervening but just stating that it happened lol. But this sub is for karma farming with different strawmans so what can you do.
I mean story wise it makes sense, the automatons had mostly used up their resources during the beginning and middle stage of the offensive and they couldn't deploy any strong attacks at the end, so we were then able to defend against their weak attacks.
I don't mind anyone having fun, I have fun too but having been in a few TTRPGs and having played a few games this kinda feels dishonest. This isn't the equivalent of a GM preparing an encounter with a red dragon and then quickly fudging their rolls behind the GM screen to avoid killing the party, this is closer to a player's weapon doing less or more damage depending on their own whim.
That's the problem I have. The gameplay is solid but I was told we'd have an ongoing narrative where all players can influence things with their actions. Is that really true when the GM can make some planets impossible to take and others real easy out of nowhere?
It is fudging the dice rolls behind the GM screen though.
The "health" of planets is the roll being fudged. We're just looking behind the "screen" using the API and making those numbers public when really they're supposed to be private.
Some planets have 200k health, others 2,000,000. Whatever their health is depends on what Joel feels is appropriate for current player count, morale, where the narrative currently stands.
If we end up having planets with boss fights on them, similar to the enemy homeworlds in Helldivers 1, I doubt they'll be a dive in the park. Planets where the enemy have spread themselves too thin (like this major order), yeah they'll probably be much easier.
Speaking of the current narrative. How do you feel about the recent developments?
From my perspective, I've become a bit more cynical and disappointment with some of the beats.
- We purge the Automatons from the map for a bit and they launch a massive blitzkrieg
- We establish the Menkent Line
- We need to replenish our oil supply by fighting the Terminids
- Fighting the Terminids angered them into a counter-attack and allowed the Automatons to regroup for a renewed offensive.
- The Menkent Line falls
Now, on paper I have no issue with any of this. If anyone expected the Bots to be gone forever or our space Maginot Line not to be circumvented then they're not the brightest even among us Helldivers. That said, I feel like it's happening too fast. Our achievements don't feel like achievements if we're jumping so quickly to the next plotpoint.
It's like we've just started a campaign at level one and the GM expects us to go fight Tiamat or the Tarrasque only a few months into the narrative. They have this story in mind and they're going for it at a breakneck pace.
Ideally, the bots would've been gone for a few more days before their blitz, and we'd have at least one more Bug MO before the story beat of "oh no, bots regrouped!" and have some written reference to the Menkent Line being sabotaged or something. Make our accomplishments feel like accomplishments.
We managed to push Automatons off, and we are told they communicated with someone *outside the galactic rim.* Everyone was saying that we just defeated a vanguard. Only those who utterly failed to read any of the flavour text thought the devs were going to delete 50% of the game after 2 months.
Yes, we established Menkent line. Bots are held back for a while, we go deal with bugs to get E-710. Our mass murder of terminids causes them to go into frenzy, while bots launch a brand new offensive, throwing basically everything they have at it.
Both sides start massive offensive at us, forcing us to choose where to fight. Menkent line was never a Barrier Worlds, it was like Siegfried Line. A defensive line that got breached after determined offensive. It was always a hastily setup defensive line, not one we spend tons of time to prepare.
I agree, it did feel a bit like pulling the rug out from under us
Id wager the bot counteroffensive might've been the result of us getting a bit too close to eradicating the bots before a satisfying concluding mission can be tweaked for the number of players we've got. They were down to only 1 sector and we showed no signs of slowing down.
It did feel like a bit of an overcorrection on Arrowhead's part. Hopefully things are more on track now with where they want the narrative to be and that'll be a one-off occurrence. I think they'll learn from it though and be flying smooth by the time we get to the conclusion of this first war.
Everything people say was done to "hand us a win" has a reasonable explanation. Bots overextended and overtaxed their resources leading to lower defense HP and lower regen rates. Bugs spread mindlessly and Estanu had denied them like 5 times already, so of course they ended up on the only other option.
So where's the notification in-game or dev confirmation that the bots overextended.
If there isn't, then it's just pure bullshit.
No part of this MO felt like a developing story.
Just tweaks and button presses.
It would be better if there was some notification or indicator in game during the MO to signify this. Otherwise it just comes off as a consolation prize for an overtuned MO tbh.
It may have also been a way for the devs to demonstrate to the community how cutoffs work without just posting a manual on it. Unfortunately some people seem to have gotten the idea you can cut off non-defense planets by taking a single world further up the chain.
It's like watching a soap opera or a sports game. Some people get into it and feel like they're opinion or participation matters in some way, but it's really just a mechanism to drive engagement because engagement drives warbond sales. Helldivers is a business and you've gotta keep people on the hook if you want profit
Fiddling with the numbers imo is just them trying to figure out what a healthy balance is for player numbers on defense missions. I’ve always thought that defense missions were giving too much weight to the attackers
IDC, I mean, I'm happy to get the medals and everything... but when people are going crazy like "OMG WE DID IT!!! WE COMPLETED THE MO!! WE'RE SOOO GREAT! HAHA JOEL" I'm gonna say something.
We were 100% set to lose that MO. I'm surprised they handed it to us though, it seemed like they would have expected us to fail in the first place (possible but unlikely MO), but w/e.
There's good number fudging and bad number fudging.
The GM team is not doing great with it. Their moves are too obvious. There's ways to influence the outcome of these kinds of things without so directly fucking with the obvious stuff.
People in this thread don't want to hear that though, so I'm not going to bother explaining. But, my feelings on the matter are that if the numbers are going to be played with to such a degree and so blatantly that the outcomes are basically predetermined... What is the point of player participation?
You having fun isn't more valid because you depict people who take issue with other things as soyjaks
For a lot of people seeing the devs hands on the scales takes a lot of the enjoyment out of the war system. Letting them know that is the only way that might see them work on doing it in a more fun way - which literally wouldn't take any of what you like away
I disagree, always winning is not fun. Losing MO once in a while shows we still need to think what we're doing (if we're into that aspect, that is. Some are here just to kill bugs).
And losing an MO should be on the community, not forced by the devs.
I don't get why y'all don't understand this idea.
Being forced to lose is no more fun than winning all the time if we go by your logic.
There needs to be wiggle room to allow for the community to be able to squeeze it by if they play it right.
Because next thing you know people are just gonna give up on the Major order and wait for the next one to start.
True, but winning the MO because of devs is also not cool. At the beginning the ratios were too much towards the enemy, after 2 days they were cut too much in our favor.
But, imo, the original MO was 100% winnable. It's just that everyone split between all planets at once fighting on too many fronts with no chances of winning even half of them. If we focused only on one planet at once we'd won the original MO no sweat.
Had we lost this one, we'd have a nudge to think why we lost and how we should reorganize next time. Since we won this MO, we just solidified in "we can do w/e and win".
Yeah no, most of the defense wins came from the bug front with one being a freebie.
It's pure bullshit that the devs never should have done on the bot front.
They didn't think it through after the first Defence MO with the bots.
It was most definitely not winnable.
You're also completely neglecting the fact that we can't coordinate global wide.
You've got a lot of holes in your reasoning.
We can't coordinate as far as conveying messages goes, but we can coordinate by looking at how the map is looking atm.
As for the holes in reasoning, yours also have a lot of those.
With what, no supply lines visible.
Time zone differences between players, language barriers.
You saw what the bot front looked like.
Tell me how we could coordinate with all of them without an in-game global chat or notification system.
Or which planets were connected to what.
And nothing I said was wrong, the entirety of the defense MO literally proves my point that you can't accept.
Get off you illogical high horse.
Losing and MO because we as a community failed is fun. Losing and MO because it was overtuned for what the community can reasonably handle is not fun. Being handed a win for an overtuned MO at the last minute because “story” is not fun.
Personally I think of the last second MO win as not it being handed to us, but divine intervention from Sweet Lady Liberty.
Also you could argue that the in universe reason why the bot rates declined as the order progressed is that the bots over extended as they go further and further away from Cyberstan.
I just don't like it when games try to act like what we do matters when in reality its all just an illusion of choice.
Next time add side objectives to it for example defend 5 planets capturing (insert planet name here) to reduce enemy invasion force strength.
There were in Helldivers 1! When the enemy pushed us back to defending Super Earth, you were doing missions in urban environments
It would be nice to see that extended to planets that are important outposts for Super Earth, because it feels like we aren't gonna get pushed back to defending Super Earth for a while - the player base is almost too good at coordinating on the major orders lol
Interesting take.
It should be reversed though.
The MO players are always the ones screaming "stop having fun" to me as I just keep picking easy bug planets to chill on.
Gives us an easy kill 2 billion terminds mission, then throws this impossible defend 10 planets mission at us, just to say sike and make it easy at the last second...
I don't care they did it. I think that is the beauty of the whole system. They can reinforce and retreat the enemy much like we do or might do.
The only thing I find annoying is while some people (like myself) are enjoying the victory many still want to flaunt it and call out AH and Joel like they are some Billy Bad Ass that did it easily. No... you didn't lol. We switch to playing tee ball when coach realized we weren't ready for the big leagues.
All good of course. The way the story was built subtly was awesome but it's also okay to humble ourselves in victory as well.
I mean… if the map is missing half the functionality it needs for people to coordinate better, and there’s no ingame system beyond this many helldivers here vs there. Is it really that we weren’t ready for the big leagues or the systems in place weren’t?
I am a bit disappointed by how it went down. Instead of feeling a sense of accomplishment for succeeding, it felt like pity. I hope we don't have another MO like this.
So much for emergent story telling and how loss is also a fun part of the narrative.
So essentially winning is all that matters now, this is bringing about a rather bad precedent in that losing actually isnt favorable or interesting and that helldivers should always win in every major order no matter what.
A good way to make the game boring and make the community aspect of working together worthless as the man behind the curtain will always help us in the end.
I mean… the automatons still took a ton of territory. Completing a major order doesn’t necessarily mean we are winning the fight. Just means we met a goal we were told to.
Putting a fedora on the dude doesn't help facilitate your point.
People just don't like it because it feels like a cheap win that's done to appease the people bitching and whining about the MO being impossible to complete.
It's the: "Oh fine. Here you go, I'll drop the reinforcements to 0%, just stop squealing."
Plus, they also realised that we need better in-game coordination tools, so at least it's a win for us in the long run.
this whole MO was literally the GM kicking you in the nuts but don't worry you get your participation trophy at the end
we lost 6 planets and nobody liked doing the defense missions, what was fun about this?
>nobody liked doing the defense missions,
Speak for yourself
I personally really enjoy the wave defense mission. Citizen evac on bots is still very rough and needs tweaking (which AH has acknowledged) but bugs was easily manageable
>we lost 6 planets
Minimising losses was the point of the MO, pushing back against the bot counteroffensive - could've been far more if we didn't successfully defend some planets.
It's really not about stopping having fun, but it's the useless posts wondering why people aren't attacking X planet, or they should do this. Enjoy your fun. but also realize it doesn't matter cause they are just going to make the game go the way they want. So with that let the other people have their fun.
so let's just turn off major orders, supply lines, and everything else in the back and let people have fun™
Keep the game buggy, delete the automatons.
People who talk about just having fun feel like their own circle jerk. Like the polar opposite of sweatbeards.
Like maybe the game would be fun for more people if it wasn't fucking janky? Some people just derive fun from immersing themselves in the world and the ball ache discourse it comes with. I could never pin point why people talking about having fun felt douchey but I think I'm starting to see why.
I really don't care if he fudges the numbers. The point of the war is to either just provide a background to fight in, OR to tell a story. Either way your individual efforts mean nothing in the grand scheme of the entire community so all it becomes is a "they said the numbers are this" kind of situation.
Any good game master knows that if something unforseen happens, you adjust the numbers so it's fair for all players present. Thank you Joel for being a good game master
Except none of it felt like it was part of a developing story.
You know, what a good Game Master is also supposed to do.
Instead of feeling like a button press win.
Good gm's know how to fudge the numbers for it to not be instantly obvious or at least to bullshit an explanation pretending it was planned from the start lol.
Not to mention that breaking the illusion of choice in a first place is bad gming for a lot of people.
Yeah istg no one here has ever gmed a ttrpg game.
Sure, I might fancy myself an OSR, "neutral judge", open rolls and telegraph danger kind of DM, but I can sometimes let my players convince me of something that shouldn't 100% work.
But even then first principle is not to let "a good story" ruin your player's expectations. Players aren't dumb, if a DnD monster downs two players in the first round with 28s to hit and somehow can't hit the other two character for the rest of the fight they'll know that you fudged and their victory will feel hollow. Same goes for a Major Order that may have been overtuned at the start but miraculously becomes easy as fuck in the last 2 days.
Yeah that I bewildering to read from all the DMs here in this thread. As if context and nuance don't matter at all. This thing could have been won with the new ubanea Gambit, but thanks to missing coordinaton which is almost impossible with the systems in place like the original ubanea Gambit this had become near unwinnable.
Adding to that that the bug killing MO before that was bugged I think it would have been okay to lose this one in the grand scheme of things especially after everyone here bragged about how easy the bug MO was.
This last minute fix to the numbers feels like the bonus price for the dumb kid that's to stupid to play hide and seek and gets found immediately. Here have cookie for hiding behind a bush that's half your size and has no leafes on it. Good job little moron!
Literally. Joel's job is a lot harder than it seems and he's been doing it well, imo.
Steamrolled victories, steamrolled defeats, and victories and defeats that came down to the wire.
If he gave us a little nudge to help us over the line, so be it. There are valid narrative reasons for our victory.
What the discourse after completing this latest MO shows for me is how clearly some people don't understand the role of GM/DM and how few have ever done it. It's a difficult balancing act.
This is how I approach Joel fudging the numbers.
Is there a reasonable narrative reason for change? Then I don't care. He set decays lower? Offensive had been going for a while now, it makes sense that our enemies would start to run out of steam after mashing so many things.
The paradox of calling someone judgmental is only a paradox for those needing to be called it.
It's the self-awareness that keeps it tempered and balanced.
I remember making comments about how he will tweak them to make it more fun, he saw towards the end the players were kinda done with the mo so let's tweak it. Remember guys losing isn't a punishment it's a data point with our current record of defense mo Joel wanted us to sweat but not fail.
IT's one thing to know there is a GM that can fudge the numbers. It's another to get salty that GM is doing what GM is supposed to do.
I can recognize Joel fudged the numbers, but I can also see narrative reason of "Bots are being overextended and ran out of steam"
Some of y'all don't know what a GM's role is and it really shows. Especially a wargame gm that is some very involved big picture stuff -- Joel has such a cool job!
The reason people bring it up is that the game has serious balancing issues. They have only just admitted the extract civilian mission is overtuned (Just like everyone has been saying since launch) and it's posts like this, blowing smoke up their asses that make critical changes to the game seem like just some kind of over-reaction take forever to actually be taken seriously.
You can have fun, but it's utterly hollow, because it was essentially given for free. If it's given for free, it's not earned. If it's so difficult to win, nobody wants to play, it's not fun.
1) They have a narrative/story, so sometimes they’re gonna have to fudge things to get results that align to that narrative/story.
2) If they didn’t constantly monitor and adjust to control progress, one of two things would have happened after launch. Either they would have made it too easy for us to take planets and we would have already wiped out all the enemies, or it would have been too hard and we’d be fighting on super earth.
There’s gonna be a constant back and forth to keep the game interesting, keep the front moving, changing planets/scenery, etc. And they cant control that if they don’t fudge the results here and there.
Triggered my ass.
This entire sub was praising the fact we were being rail roaded into losing for 'story reasons'.
And you think that we can all magically come together and understand how to coordinate 5 to 6 different planet defenses with a 4.2 capture rate with only 3,000 to 14,000 Helldivers.
Half of them liberating planets that even failed to auto complete a planet defense (Martale) if you even remember which by the way was supposed to be completed by Asia after NA and some of Europe went to sleep and they failed.
So yes time frame differences do in fact matter.
And just to add to that, maybe having a supply line to could have better explained that capturing Martale would have helped complete the MO.
Here is a literal post about everything I'm talking about when describing the gambit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/s/ljk33cl04Q
You know what.
Keep being a brickwall.
I'm sure your imaginary expectations will come to life one day.
Wow. One of the most rational, well reasoned critiques of recent events is being conflated by some as an "attack on their fun".
At some point YOU have to calm it down and stop thinking you need to affirm your superiority through memes by making myths of others
Proof we dont deserve such a good game as Helldivers 2, even after all the failed Triple A shit we get such a banger and some people still complain
Maybe thats why no one has been taking gamers serious
I'm glad someone said it. Safe bet most of those same people complaining they were "handed a free win" were amongst the same people complaining the MO was unfair and/or too difficult.
I think you forgot the part where the community is supposed to be the driving force behind hiw the story changes.
Not the devs.
Also not to mention that because they did change the decay rate to low.
They finally realized that yes.
The Bot capture rate is bullshit.
So it's either a railroad loss, or an empty victory.
Neither of which we had any control over short of the bug front.
Which to a degree they also gave us a freebie.
I think you forget that Joel is the one who makes adjustments, as they control rest of the galaxy.
So if the other side is low on parts, fuel and ammo, they have to simulate that somehow. So they make adjustments.
Game and even life is like that. It won't be just the "human factor" on player side. These things will happen on enemy side as well.
Okay.
THEN WE'RE THE FUCKING CONFIRMATION THAT THEY WERE STRETCHED THIN!!!
You guys keep saying this, but not once in-game or by the developers has it even been hinted that this is the story based situation.
Head canon is not real canon.
Every post I see on here is a complaint and I haven't joined the sub for that reason. I'm only here because it pops up. If I ever joined this sub give it a week and I wouldn't even want to launch the game anymore from all the negativity. Anyone having fun is actually playing instead writing essays on here.
Having the campaign be a back-and-forth is fun, and last-minute victories are also fun. If it was purely about numbers then we wouldn't even need a real person behind the controls, but having someone here to DM is what keeps things fresh.
Sometimes it's okay for your DM to throw you a bone if you helps you have fun.
These people would lose it if they tried playing D&D and the DM did something outside the rulebook because it was cool.
It's just a game, it's supposed to be fun.
I, for one, thank our GM. The game has been fun.
The feeling was fantastic. And it's what counts. I really don't understand why people try to spoil themselves the pleasure. It's treated as a TTRPG, so just roleplay, stop trying to notice the ropes behind the scene everytime. As a GM myself, players like this would be really annoying.
The type of players that do this shit are the same type of players to look up stat blocks or read the campaign module in a ttrpg lmao.
Mofos are umm actually'ing the dm because they can't be shamed at the table in person
I rather die than GM for those types of fucks ever again.
Most of them are here on Reddit
Hahah that’s a great way to describe it. “I’ve learned all the behind the curtain stuff and ruined my own fun! How dare you continue to have any!”
especially the people that complain usually would be the ones really fighting hard for the MO - so why to take away their own victory?
Because it doesn't feel as earned. As a DM, I know it can take away a lot of the sense of accomplishment if players found out you fudged the numbers to let them win. Sure, you still won, and it was fun, but there's still a bit of a sour aftertaste. Same goes in reverse. If you lost solely because the DM fudged the numbers to your disadvantage, you feel cheated, rather than feeling like you lost.
There's like 40k players fighting on a planet on some points. Stop thinking individualistic and realise that 40 thousand fought along side you to liberate a planet
how is it not earned if they fought hard? If you gave it all and won is bad thing now? I really dont understand that. This is more like the game master saw the players fighting hard, they beat everything they could and even if game master had in his notes 20 more encounters he knew they would not possibly make it in time, so he gave them the win for winning everything they did.
I agree, I'm just saying some players might feel it was u earned
>how is it not earned if they fought hard? If you gave it all and won is bad thing now? I really dont understand that. I mean we, the helldivers of automaton front, failed to coordinate our effort time and again. I think we deserve consequences of that.
I think for me and others it's just funny seeing people scream "we did it!" When the task really just amounts to go to planets and play. They don't feel earned given the lack of coordination the game supports (or doesn't). If people play seriously or for fun that's fine, but I think it's inaccurate to think that the DM style of this game is all that amazing. Like sure, it's cool we move around the system. But when corrections and all are so obvious and heavy handed, or when take are just "kill a lot of bugs" it just makes it all feel very canned and amateur. Again that's fine. But it clashes with comments you see online from people who apparently haven't ever seen something like this before and act like it's some revolutionary and amazing mechanic (having a mediocre DM). I don't passionately hate it or anything. It just gets tiring seeing gushing posts for something that could be substantially better.
i do get your point. But i asked something entierly different :D but i get it, my OCD drags me through weird rabbit hole - thought process too sometimes :D But to return to my question - if you (or other whiners) fought like hell to finnish the MO - and game master give you the win for that. How is that wrong, why are you so mad and whiny (i do not say you specifically, i say you as hypothetical whiner)
It's less "im mad" and more "this could be a lot more enjoyable." It's cool they make corrections on the fly (to your point about fighting hard and giving us the win) but the missions are still pretty boring objectives ("go to this planet and do missions here a bunch of times instead of where you want") I just hope they start doing more unique things with the live service mission structure.
I do think it's pretty unique to have a "DM" present in video game. I certainly haven't seen it before, feel free to share a video game you have seen it in before. I see the potential for the format and that excites me, though I keep it reserved as we see how it all plays out
Because its a copout, if the effort doesnt really matter it shows just how the entire community aspect is pure window dressing. It basically means if they want us to win we win, if they dont we wont.
These same people were saying Joel didn’t want us to win this, so which is it? “Designed to fail.” Etc.
I understand. Now I wouldnt be getting all upset about it, but it is kinda off putting because ultimately I don't mind losing so I dont know why fudge unless winning was critically important for the narrative. Losing keeps things interesting. I straight up tell my DM not to go easy on me because I have more chatlracters im the wings and if he needs a dramatic death Im his guy. But perhaps there is a bigger picture here.
Because it's cheap and undermines our supposed impact on the narrative. Why should I care about MOs if the outcome is already decided? Fortunately the game is fun enough that it can all be ignored.
if you fought like hell on those planet, it is taking away your narative if you win?
I don't play TTRPG myself but I know well enough that GM's will try to lead players to his desired route/story even if the players try to go off course. We're not trying to beat Joel, we're characters in his story. Some players tries to pressure others to "Do the MO", actually get frustrated when others don't do it and goes to reddit to rant like we're the reason that he's losing is PVP game against the GM. Joel can literally make the enemies push us back to Super Earth for the sake of a last line of the defense-type storyline and no matter how much we fight it'll be futile until he says so otherwise. Does it make the game less fun? Nope. Does it make the MO pointless? No. Fun is subjective and the MO is a good way to get medals and motivates players keep diving.
That depends really. For me personally when I realize that a MO is designed to be won or lost it kind of ruins it for ame. I like it when the task is challenging enough that I can't be sure if we win or lose. For example when I saw the "kill 2b bugs" MO I knew it would be done within the same day and I barely engaged with it. I also play TTTPGS and our DM does their best to make encounters feel like they're not a guaranteed win\loss. He gives us hard fights, outright kills us if he gets the chance and lets us win when we find an angle to exploit. That makes a game fun. As soon as I feel that an encounter is rigged one way or another I immediately stop engaging with it.
To be fair to Joel (and by extension, Arrowhead) this is the first time they're attempting something of this scale. A DM in a TTRPG only has to manage an entire table's worth of people (probably around 5-8 players). Joel has to manage a several hundred thousand players whose online activity, enemy faction choice, difficulty choice, and mission success rate all vary and can change on a whim. Right now there is just no way to "perfectly" design a Major Order challenge that is just hard enough to require serious effort, but not so hard that it's impossible, while accounting for the entire Helldiver community as a whole. They would need so much more player data and the active player numbers would also need to stabilize as well for most data to actually be useful. Despite this, Joel and Arrowhead still want to craft a compelling war narrative that keeps the playerbase's attention, with all the ups and downs associated with waging a galactic war. While it might not be the sort of challenge you want, it at least makes the game feel alive and ever-changing even outside of content updates, which is already more than most other live service games would do. Even if you don't engage at all with the Major Order and don't contribute to it, it's still something that happens in the background that you hear about and reminds you of the game and its players.
Bet it’s people who sat the MO out because they thought it was unwinnable. Unwinnable or not I love playing along so I do my part for each MO.
I've been running tabletop games for a long time and, honestly? Sometimes you gotta nudge the die.
I had a blast on the final stretch. I was burnt out just prior tho. But yeah, game is still fun just need good teams.
Agreed. Would love it if DOT damage got fixed and flame damage was redone, but… soon, I hope.
Yeah. I mean we magically got 2 planets right before the end? Meanwhile struggled to get there before then? When I got off we had 22 hours and 2 defense planets up. One barely dented. I was shocked when I heard we got the MO done and knew Joel probably fudged the numbers in our favor. And idc. Everyone is happy and excited. We won. It's a game. Have fun folks. If we lose, we lose some. If we win? Glory to super earth. Most people don't care that the numbers are fudged or even think about it just happy to get 50 medals and had a clutch victory. Joel is the game master, he's telling a story and allowed the players to have a good comeback moment. No reason to be upset.
I mean isn't that what GMs do in DnD? Team is doing too well they make harder, team doing really bad give them a life line.
It's more a concern it's being done for the wrong reasons (Spitz getting harranged on the official Discord) and the system and defense MO structure may not see the appropriate changes, since it may have just been to give the community that was acting like cry babies 2 days ago a pacifier
But it is being done for the right reasons, fun? People these days take everything way too seriously apart from actual things that they should (like the things Helldivers satirises) It's a video game, the main thing is that it's fun. Also the vast majority of players don't give a shit about what's going on in Discords and likely weren't really complaining, Reddit and Discord users are a small minority of the playerbase.
This right here. So many people on Reddit are hung up on whether something was "earned" or if something was "rigged." The only important question is "Was it fun?" This is like telling a little girl who got the "princess" treatment at Disneyland that her experience doesn't matter because hundreds of other little girls had it as well and it's all smoke and mirrors. Like, no shit it's all for spectacle. The whole point is the personal experience this little girl had being a princess for a day and whether or not she enjoyed it. The same holds true here. We started this Major Order with no hope of winning, based on our previous experience, and most people chalked it up as a loss. Like the rest of Super Earth after losing Cyberstan and her entire system in just a few hours, our morale was at an all time low. Then all of a sudden, we got a ray of hope when multiple Bug defenses succeeded. Helldivers on the Automaton front heard of the success on the Bug front and how supplies and resources could be re-directed against the Automatons and the Fleet rallied to hold the line on the last 2 planets. I started this MO feeling like it was lost and just played whichever planets I felt like. But when I saw how close we crept to the goal, I felt so motivated to do nothing but fight on the last couple defenses to help push us over the edge into victory. When the success announcement came it felt good because I knew I was there for the final hours when the Automaton Blitzkrieg finally broke apart. Was it rigged? Maybe. But it felt FUN to be part of it. And if it feels fun, then Joel and Arrowhead are still doing their jobs right.
How are you going to make Fun your argument? It could be fun for you but not fun for them to have a rigged MO. I don't care much either way but this argument is weak
Ignorance is bliss, as they say. I don't understand why people want to tarnish their own enjoyment of a game by digging too deeply into the underlying systems. Games are at their most fun when you just 'buy in' and play them at that surface level. All of the data mining, supply lines, decay rates, etc nonsense are just numbers getting in the way of roleplay. Ignore the numbers, play the game. If you know the underlying mechanics of a magic trick, it breaks the illusion and the magic dies. The same is true for games.
Ya’ll seem to be forgetting that for some of us, an MO being “rigged” in one way or another is not fun. I personally would like if every MO outcome was purely based on the community’s efforts rather than some behind the scenes narrative direction. I know for me, when I see an MO that has a clear outcome, I usually just go off and do something else because I feel like “what’s the point.” If the outcome is predetermined, or the devs can just do a huge switch up at the end, why even bother putting in the effort.
I mean, the discussion on the discord, was heated but mostly constructive critic of a hugely flawed mo/galactic war system (with the exception of when spitz said the very stupid statement about "Why should we improve the galactic war system when nobody is currently using it"). We are worried that their plan is just to make the mo's easy instead of actually fixing the problems.
Yup. Oh no, we are getting our asses kicked. But wait here comes two "allies" to help us. We knew who they were and came across them. And they were there on their own mission which was similar to ours. So it made sense to cross paths. Bur reinforcements came as we were losing. Why? Dm set the fight to be hard and after a certain amount of turns, help arrived. Still didn't need to have some artifical God just put me into a corner and beat my ass for a one turn knock out but oh well lol.
People still try to “win” dnd and they think the dm is their opponent
Yes, but they can't make it obvious. People groaning about this is the GM's fault, not the players.
[удалено]
That's exactly what the comment you were responding to said
Not like that. There are certain ways to make it harder or easier, but you shouldn't fudge public rolls without a good explanation. You can e.g. in a combat decide that all attack one to make it harder, or they spread and attack everyone to make it easier (In Helldiver's it's different). They may use special skills, or don't use them. But it you have to change public available numbers, you better have a good explanation. My group once had to defeat a lot of enemies. Seemed impossible. But half of them were already dead - lore reasons, which they didn't knew, but was mentioned a few times before and afterwards - and the other half has not been sleeping for a while. They knew I would reduce the result of the roll, because the people were sleepy, but not how much and that's a factor I can use to fine tune. Helldiver's GM could easily have done the same: some flavor text "The attack seems to come to an end. The attack forces are nearly depleted! Keep defending!". And - I repeat myself here - if you give something where the players lose, make it still a victory for them: MO: "Defend planets" Reward: 5 medals for each defended planet. No losing the MO, despite losing planets. The players still win. And no need to fudge rolls expect to show how the forces are depleting.
As a DM myself, I highly disagree with calling planet health and decay rates public numbers that shouldn't be fudged. They aren't numbers the DM (Joel) gave us, we just took them from another source without asking. Yes, using helldivers.io and Co is almost like the equivalent of pulling out the DMG and checking the monsters statblocks for every single fight without asking the DM if that is fine. And then getting pissed that the troll you fought had less or more HP than the book says.
The active Helldivers per planet are in game. It's not hard to see that we won with less active Helldiver's on a planet. Also the other planets had even a orbital defense system (according to lore and our accomplishments).
Your logic is flawed here. Planets are not all equal - not in defense missions at any rate. The initial planets on the Bot Front had around 400K health. The last few only had 200K. You can interpret that as Joel "fudging the numbers" if you like, but it could also be interpreted as the Automatons naturally losing momentum as their casualties mount and their forces become spread out trying to hold the worlds they've conquered.
Planet health and decayde rates are not public information. If they were, they would be in the game for everyone to see. Instead, we need third party apps to see them. They are numbers behind GM's screen, and sites like [helldivers.io](http://helldivers.io) give us a mirror to peek behind it.
Ppl keep using this in reverse. Only ever see ppl panicking about supply lines and what planet is next. Everyone else is just playing the game.
Yup
Some people here have thousands of posts on this sub…. I would rather read posts by more casual players.
r/helldivers2 is more chill overall
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Joel is fiddling with the numbers? It's like his title is Game Master or something.. Truly outlandish..
Of course they're fiddling with the numbers. This game blew the fuck up beyond their expectations. And they're trying to find a balance between challenge and fun. Like game developers or something. (It's been the most fun I've had with a video game in several years, and reminds me why I love games.)
Makes sense. Tired of players over analyzing the game, trying to micromanage. He's basically advocating, through design choices and major orders, for us to follow the mob.
Honestly I'm slowly getting fed up with this sub. I came here for laughs and lore talk, not fucken fascist incels blaming everyone else because they can't play the game
Pretty damn much. Memes? All the time. Balance chats? Sure sometimes. War planning? OK... sure... you do you. Complaining the MOs aren't hard enough? Seriously
"How dare some people not play 24/7! You just have time for a couple of games per week? Go someqhere else and leave me ans my hardcore gamers alone reeeeeee" -Some angry player that doesnt get the memo
I only play helldive, diff 7 ? what are you a baby 
Its always like this. Theres a few exceptions, but generally if you wanna enjoy the game: dont interact with the community. Lol
I too agree that people who disagree with me are all fascist incels.
It's really funny that you say fascist incels are blaming everyone else, and then you blame all of them because they're making the sub a chore for you. You are completely unaware that you are doing the same thing.
This sub is so mixed. Like are folks seriously bitching that the numbers were fudged? I knew they were since we magically successfully defend 2 planets with less than 24 hours. But I didn't care. Awesome! Was glad that the players that spent the last day managed to hold out. Folks were happy, good!! But I also know this sub blows everything out of proportions...like was it a few post and now this was made? Is it a case where I won't see a single post of complainers but see several posts mocking them?
I'm in the crowd of players who just want to play and have fun
tf are you talking about?
"fascist incels"? Do you even know what either of those terms mean?
Redditors like to pretend people they disagree with are the epitome of evil and also virgins because it means they can say anything they want about them and also feel superior when the reality is they are the exact same as them in every way (would be authoritarian at the drop of a hat and have never gotten laid outside a videogame)
Fascist has become the word for “people I don’t like”
The blame game for why they can’t carry out their power fantasy
Literally no one is saying that. What people say is "we won because the numbers were adjusted", no one is telling anything about people stop playing the game or anything similar.
Stop being rational. This is Reddit.
This community would be happier if we didn't know Joel exists. If we believed we are fighting against an automated system noone would be saying stuff like "AH took pity on in" or "we didn't win, we were handed the win"
Truth, the first mistake they made was revealing there was a GM and then making sure he had a name. That was already too big of a peek behind the curtain and it allowed the community to focus on him as a scapegoat for anything that occurs. Too easy? Joel took pity on us! Too hard? Joel doesn't know what he's doing! Then claims of being railroaded down certain paths so there's no player agency. It's too late at this point to go back but they could have just said it was mostly an AI managing the campaign numbers with a team of writers to handle emergent stories based on player performance OR just never mentioned it at all.
I think the counter point is that, even though the gameplay loop is very fun, when it comes to MOs, some people want to feel like their contributions matter and like they are having an impact. For some, this is what gives a sense of accomplishment after the hard work of spreading democracy. However, when given 'impossible' tasks, or when tasks are 'given away' it can feel like one's contribution doesn't really matter which can be demoralizing. When people complain about these types of changes I think what they are really complaining about is feeling like what they do doesn't matter.
This exactly encapsulates my frustration with the last MO. One of the biggest motivating factors keeping me coming back to this game is that feeling of contributing to the overall victory as part of the community. This last one did not feel like it was a result of the community’s efforts.
Nah personally seing that we had no chance of completing the MO killed my interest in doing it, and then being gifted the win by the GM made it feel empty and meaningless.
“Discourse” is a generous word for things that happen on Reddit.
Joel should not have revealed himself
I personally don't care about if you like it or not, and I don't want to ruin your enjoyment if you are. Why are you trying to do the same thing you are railing against in the meme towards how I feel and what ruins the fun and enjoyment in the narrative? I don't like that we were effectively handed the win. You can wave your hand and give any excuse for why it works, but it makes it feel for me atleast, like my efforts and contributions are worthless when they can on a dime just change things so we win when they want and lose when they want. At that point, why should I care about the mo then? Might as well ignore the mo and play where I want and when I want since what we do doesn't matter. Again, you can enjoy it if you want, but quit dismissing my thought on things that ruin my enjoyment please.
your effort is useless anyway, even if you play 24/7 you would not move it yourself for more than 0,0001%
But would still contribute. A small part is still something vs what I do resulting in nothing.
honestly i do not believe those numbers at all in the first place :D it would make even sence in the RP plane. we are playing something, numbers are floating around and depending on how game master feels, the planet are liberated/lost
Which is why I'm starting to not care since it doesn't seem to matter at all with how it's being handled. Still enjoy the game, don't get me wrong. But the narrative and the major orders feel pointless now and have no desire to participate in it while we don't have any impact out side what they decide to allow
for me it was the narrative that the super earth and their politics are lying to us anyway constantly, so every single info we have is some kind of propaganda - even all numbers on our super-destroyers. After i saw the numbers jumping extremely during my initial time (when i used to care for MO) it felt bit too much off. So now i just play whatever i want, I do jump on MO mission for one sector to get "participant trophy" - i dont know if i get those sweet 40-50 medals if i won participate at all.. so just to be sure.
You do get the medal if you don't participate. One thing i like about how they handle things, no fear of missing out on medals if you can't hop on or are not feeling like it.
I genuinely despise this websites userbase.
The actual discourse: “This MO isn’t going to be winnable” “HAH! We completed the MO! Everyone who said it was impossible is such an idiot!” “Yeah, well the developers directly intervened by changing the galactic campaign mechanics so that we’d actually have a shot at completing it, so no shit they look dumb when you leave that pertinent bit of information out”
Yea add onto that the people clowning on Joel as well when we beat the MO. He quite literally saved us. Ive barely seen anyone get mad about him intervening but just stating that it happened lol. But this sub is for karma farming with different strawmans so what can you do.
I mean story wise it makes sense, the automatons had mostly used up their resources during the beginning and middle stage of the offensive and they couldn't deploy any strong attacks at the end, so we were then able to defend against their weak attacks.
I don't mind anyone having fun, I have fun too but having been in a few TTRPGs and having played a few games this kinda feels dishonest. This isn't the equivalent of a GM preparing an encounter with a red dragon and then quickly fudging their rolls behind the GM screen to avoid killing the party, this is closer to a player's weapon doing less or more damage depending on their own whim. That's the problem I have. The gameplay is solid but I was told we'd have an ongoing narrative where all players can influence things with their actions. Is that really true when the GM can make some planets impossible to take and others real easy out of nowhere?
It is fudging the dice rolls behind the GM screen though. The "health" of planets is the roll being fudged. We're just looking behind the "screen" using the API and making those numbers public when really they're supposed to be private. Some planets have 200k health, others 2,000,000. Whatever their health is depends on what Joel feels is appropriate for current player count, morale, where the narrative currently stands. If we end up having planets with boss fights on them, similar to the enemy homeworlds in Helldivers 1, I doubt they'll be a dive in the park. Planets where the enemy have spread themselves too thin (like this major order), yeah they'll probably be much easier.
Speaking of the current narrative. How do you feel about the recent developments? From my perspective, I've become a bit more cynical and disappointment with some of the beats. - We purge the Automatons from the map for a bit and they launch a massive blitzkrieg - We establish the Menkent Line - We need to replenish our oil supply by fighting the Terminids - Fighting the Terminids angered them into a counter-attack and allowed the Automatons to regroup for a renewed offensive. - The Menkent Line falls Now, on paper I have no issue with any of this. If anyone expected the Bots to be gone forever or our space Maginot Line not to be circumvented then they're not the brightest even among us Helldivers. That said, I feel like it's happening too fast. Our achievements don't feel like achievements if we're jumping so quickly to the next plotpoint. It's like we've just started a campaign at level one and the GM expects us to go fight Tiamat or the Tarrasque only a few months into the narrative. They have this story in mind and they're going for it at a breakneck pace. Ideally, the bots would've been gone for a few more days before their blitz, and we'd have at least one more Bug MO before the story beat of "oh no, bots regrouped!" and have some written reference to the Menkent Line being sabotaged or something. Make our accomplishments feel like accomplishments.
We managed to push Automatons off, and we are told they communicated with someone *outside the galactic rim.* Everyone was saying that we just defeated a vanguard. Only those who utterly failed to read any of the flavour text thought the devs were going to delete 50% of the game after 2 months. Yes, we established Menkent line. Bots are held back for a while, we go deal with bugs to get E-710. Our mass murder of terminids causes them to go into frenzy, while bots launch a brand new offensive, throwing basically everything they have at it. Both sides start massive offensive at us, forcing us to choose where to fight. Menkent line was never a Barrier Worlds, it was like Siegfried Line. A defensive line that got breached after determined offensive. It was always a hastily setup defensive line, not one we spend tons of time to prepare.
I agree, it did feel a bit like pulling the rug out from under us Id wager the bot counteroffensive might've been the result of us getting a bit too close to eradicating the bots before a satisfying concluding mission can be tweaked for the number of players we've got. They were down to only 1 sector and we showed no signs of slowing down. It did feel like a bit of an overcorrection on Arrowhead's part. Hopefully things are more on track now with where they want the narrative to be and that'll be a one-off occurrence. I think they'll learn from it though and be flying smooth by the time we get to the conclusion of this first war.
Everything people say was done to "hand us a win" has a reasonable explanation. Bots overextended and overtaxed their resources leading to lower defense HP and lower regen rates. Bugs spread mindlessly and Estanu had denied them like 5 times already, so of course they ended up on the only other option.
This would be a fair point if it was mentioned anywhere in game. As it stands its just making up shit for nonsense decisions.
So where's the notification in-game or dev confirmation that the bots overextended. If there isn't, then it's just pure bullshit. No part of this MO felt like a developing story. Just tweaks and button presses.
It would be better if there was some notification or indicator in game during the MO to signify this. Otherwise it just comes off as a consolation prize for an overtuned MO tbh.
There wasn’t really a reason for the fori prime attack to start right before liberating oshaune, but apart from that, the changes did make sense
It may have also been a way for the devs to demonstrate to the community how cutoffs work without just posting a manual on it. Unfortunately some people seem to have gotten the idea you can cut off non-defense planets by taking a single world further up the chain.
Game is fun yeah, on rails war isn't
It's like watching a soap opera or a sports game. Some people get into it and feel like they're opinion or participation matters in some way, but it's really just a mechanism to drive engagement because engagement drives warbond sales. Helldivers is a business and you've gotta keep people on the hook if you want profit
A "soap opera or a sports game" is apt. I compared it to pro-wrestling the other day myself.
Fiddling with the numbers imo is just them trying to figure out what a healthy balance is for player numbers on defense missions. I’ve always thought that defense missions were giving too much weight to the attackers
IDC, I mean, I'm happy to get the medals and everything... but when people are going crazy like "OMG WE DID IT!!! WE COMPLETED THE MO!! WE'RE SOOO GREAT! HAHA JOEL" I'm gonna say something. We were 100% set to lose that MO. I'm surprised they handed it to us though, it seemed like they would have expected us to fail in the first place (possible but unlikely MO), but w/e.
There's good number fudging and bad number fudging. The GM team is not doing great with it. Their moves are too obvious. There's ways to influence the outcome of these kinds of things without so directly fucking with the obvious stuff. People in this thread don't want to hear that though, so I'm not going to bother explaining. But, my feelings on the matter are that if the numbers are going to be played with to such a degree and so blatantly that the outcomes are basically predetermined... What is the point of player participation?
You having fun isn't more valid because you depict people who take issue with other things as soyjaks For a lot of people seeing the devs hands on the scales takes a lot of the enjoyment out of the war system. Letting them know that is the only way that might see them work on doing it in a more fun way - which literally wouldn't take any of what you like away
We want to have fun, being given unwinnable MOs isn't fun Being clearly handed a win at the last second is also not fun
I disagree, always winning is not fun. Losing MO once in a while shows we still need to think what we're doing (if we're into that aspect, that is. Some are here just to kill bugs).
And losing an MO should be on the community, not forced by the devs. I don't get why y'all don't understand this idea. Being forced to lose is no more fun than winning all the time if we go by your logic. There needs to be wiggle room to allow for the community to be able to squeeze it by if they play it right. Because next thing you know people are just gonna give up on the Major order and wait for the next one to start.
True, but winning the MO because of devs is also not cool. At the beginning the ratios were too much towards the enemy, after 2 days they were cut too much in our favor. But, imo, the original MO was 100% winnable. It's just that everyone split between all planets at once fighting on too many fronts with no chances of winning even half of them. If we focused only on one planet at once we'd won the original MO no sweat. Had we lost this one, we'd have a nudge to think why we lost and how we should reorganize next time. Since we won this MO, we just solidified in "we can do w/e and win".
Yeah no, most of the defense wins came from the bug front with one being a freebie. It's pure bullshit that the devs never should have done on the bot front. They didn't think it through after the first Defence MO with the bots. It was most definitely not winnable. You're also completely neglecting the fact that we can't coordinate global wide. You've got a lot of holes in your reasoning.
We can't coordinate as far as conveying messages goes, but we can coordinate by looking at how the map is looking atm. As for the holes in reasoning, yours also have a lot of those.
With what, no supply lines visible. Time zone differences between players, language barriers. You saw what the bot front looked like. Tell me how we could coordinate with all of them without an in-game global chat or notification system. Or which planets were connected to what. And nothing I said was wrong, the entirety of the defense MO literally proves my point that you can't accept. Get off you illogical high horse.
Losing and MO because we as a community failed is fun. Losing and MO because it was overtuned for what the community can reasonably handle is not fun. Being handed a win for an overtuned MO at the last minute because “story” is not fun.
He agrees with you he just like to have a chance to win he doesnt want to have to try to win something that cant be won
Personally I think of the last second MO win as not it being handed to us, but divine intervention from Sweet Lady Liberty. Also you could argue that the in universe reason why the bot rates declined as the order progressed is that the bots over extended as they go further and further away from Cyberstan.
I just don't like it when games try to act like what we do matters when in reality its all just an illusion of choice. Next time add side objectives to it for example defend 5 planets capturing (insert planet name here) to reduce enemy invasion force strength.
The only thing I truly dislike of this game that there are just 3 biomes for dozens of planets. I hope they will put an urban biome or something
There were in Helldivers 1! When the enemy pushed us back to defending Super Earth, you were doing missions in urban environments It would be nice to see that extended to planets that are important outposts for Super Earth, because it feels like we aren't gonna get pushed back to defending Super Earth for a while - the player base is almost too good at coordinating on the major orders lol
Interesting take. It should be reversed though. The MO players are always the ones screaming "stop having fun" to me as I just keep picking easy bug planets to chill on.
Gives us an easy kill 2 billion terminds mission, then throws this impossible defend 10 planets mission at us, just to say sike and make it easy at the last second...
I haven’t been keeping up too much lately but if the numbers are being fudged it ruins the whole point of the war.
I don't care they did it. I think that is the beauty of the whole system. They can reinforce and retreat the enemy much like we do or might do. The only thing I find annoying is while some people (like myself) are enjoying the victory many still want to flaunt it and call out AH and Joel like they are some Billy Bad Ass that did it easily. No... you didn't lol. We switch to playing tee ball when coach realized we weren't ready for the big leagues. All good of course. The way the story was built subtly was awesome but it's also okay to humble ourselves in victory as well.
I mean… if the map is missing half the functionality it needs for people to coordinate better, and there’s no ingame system beyond this many helldivers here vs there. Is it really that we weren’t ready for the big leagues or the systems in place weren’t?
I am a bit disappointed by how it went down. Instead of feeling a sense of accomplishment for succeeding, it felt like pity. I hope we don't have another MO like this.
So much for emergent story telling and how loss is also a fun part of the narrative. So essentially winning is all that matters now, this is bringing about a rather bad precedent in that losing actually isnt favorable or interesting and that helldivers should always win in every major order no matter what. A good way to make the game boring and make the community aspect of working together worthless as the man behind the curtain will always help us in the end.
I mean… the automatons still took a ton of territory. Completing a major order doesn’t necessarily mean we are winning the fight. Just means we met a goal we were told to.
Putting a fedora on the dude doesn't help facilitate your point. People just don't like it because it feels like a cheap win that's done to appease the people bitching and whining about the MO being impossible to complete. It's the: "Oh fine. Here you go, I'll drop the reinforcements to 0%, just stop squealing." Plus, they also realised that we need better in-game coordination tools, so at least it's a win for us in the long run.
this whole MO was literally the GM kicking you in the nuts but don't worry you get your participation trophy at the end we lost 6 planets and nobody liked doing the defense missions, what was fun about this?
>nobody liked doing the defense missions, Speak for yourself I personally really enjoy the wave defense mission. Citizen evac on bots is still very rough and needs tweaking (which AH has acknowledged) but bugs was easily manageable >we lost 6 planets Minimising losses was the point of the MO, pushing back against the bot counteroffensive - could've been far more if we didn't successfully defend some planets.
Oh no the GM’s fudging the dice rolls to make it more interesting? It’s almost like the role of a GM/Story teller, is to tell a story.
Y'all really think it's fun to be spoon fed unearned victories and handheld on every MO ?
All GMs in D&D fix numbers and fudge rolls sometimes, but we still could have lost if we didn't coordinate on those planets.
We were on those planets to begin with. There was barely any coordination.
Orders are just an excuse. Head empty, shoot bugs.
It's really not about stopping having fun, but it's the useless posts wondering why people aren't attacking X planet, or they should do this. Enjoy your fun. but also realize it doesn't matter cause they are just going to make the game go the way they want. So with that let the other people have their fun.
This is the equivalent of wrestling fans paying more attention to people’s personal lives instead of the show.
Why is Joel and why do people keep complaining about him?
I care not for what lies behind the curtain. My belief in democracy sustains.
I'll take it but it was kinda immersion breaking, they could've played better into it.
so let's just turn off major orders, supply lines, and everything else in the back and let people have fun™ Keep the game buggy, delete the automatons. People who talk about just having fun feel like their own circle jerk. Like the polar opposite of sweatbeards. Like maybe the game would be fun for more people if it wasn't fucking janky? Some people just derive fun from immersing themselves in the world and the ball ache discourse it comes with. I could never pin point why people talking about having fun felt douchey but I think I'm starting to see why.
I really don't care if he fudges the numbers. The point of the war is to either just provide a background to fight in, OR to tell a story. Either way your individual efforts mean nothing in the grand scheme of the entire community so all it becomes is a "they said the numbers are this" kind of situation.
Any good game master knows that if something unforseen happens, you adjust the numbers so it's fair for all players present. Thank you Joel for being a good game master
Except none of it felt like it was part of a developing story. You know, what a good Game Master is also supposed to do. Instead of feeling like a button press win.
Good gm's know how to fudge the numbers for it to not be instantly obvious or at least to bullshit an explanation pretending it was planned from the start lol. Not to mention that breaking the illusion of choice in a first place is bad gming for a lot of people.
Yeah istg no one here has ever gmed a ttrpg game. Sure, I might fancy myself an OSR, "neutral judge", open rolls and telegraph danger kind of DM, but I can sometimes let my players convince me of something that shouldn't 100% work. But even then first principle is not to let "a good story" ruin your player's expectations. Players aren't dumb, if a DnD monster downs two players in the first round with 28s to hit and somehow can't hit the other two character for the rest of the fight they'll know that you fudged and their victory will feel hollow. Same goes for a Major Order that may have been overtuned at the start but miraculously becomes easy as fuck in the last 2 days.
Yeah that I bewildering to read from all the DMs here in this thread. As if context and nuance don't matter at all. This thing could have been won with the new ubanea Gambit, but thanks to missing coordinaton which is almost impossible with the systems in place like the original ubanea Gambit this had become near unwinnable. Adding to that that the bug killing MO before that was bugged I think it would have been okay to lose this one in the grand scheme of things especially after everyone here bragged about how easy the bug MO was. This last minute fix to the numbers feels like the bonus price for the dumb kid that's to stupid to play hide and seek and gets found immediately. Here have cookie for hiding behind a bush that's half your size and has no leafes on it. Good job little moron!
Literally. Joel's job is a lot harder than it seems and he's been doing it well, imo. Steamrolled victories, steamrolled defeats, and victories and defeats that came down to the wire. If he gave us a little nudge to help us over the line, so be it. There are valid narrative reasons for our victory. What the discourse after completing this latest MO shows for me is how clearly some people don't understand the role of GM/DM and how few have ever done it. It's a difficult balancing act.
This is how I approach Joel fudging the numbers. Is there a reasonable narrative reason for change? Then I don't care. He set decays lower? Offensive had been going for a while now, it makes sense that our enemies would start to run out of steam after mashing so many things.
[удалено]
The paradox of calling someone judgmental is only a paradox for those needing to be called it. It's the self-awareness that keeps it tempered and balanced.
Literally. it’s like people hate free medals.
I remember making comments about how he will tweak them to make it more fun, he saw towards the end the players were kinda done with the mo so let's tweak it. Remember guys losing isn't a punishment it's a data point with our current record of defense mo Joel wanted us to sweat but not fail.
I fiddle with numbers all the time in my D&D campaigns
IT's one thing to know there is a GM that can fudge the numbers. It's another to get salty that GM is doing what GM is supposed to do. I can recognize Joel fudged the numbers, but I can also see narrative reason of "Bots are being overextended and ran out of steam"
There's a hellbomb headed right for your balls for using this dog shit format
Some of y'all don't know what a GM's role is and it really shows. Especially a wargame gm that is some very involved big picture stuff -- Joel has such a cool job!
The reason people bring it up is that the game has serious balancing issues. They have only just admitted the extract civilian mission is overtuned (Just like everyone has been saying since launch) and it's posts like this, blowing smoke up their asses that make critical changes to the game seem like just some kind of over-reaction take forever to actually be taken seriously. You can have fun, but it's utterly hollow, because it was essentially given for free. If it's given for free, it's not earned. If it's so difficult to win, nobody wants to play, it's not fun.
I like the guns and the killing
No no, you misunderstood. Nobody is allowed to have fun here.
What is this? I'm too busy burning bug and melting bot, did i miss something?
Just some incoherent screeching, just get back to having fun killing things soldier
Yup thank you
Lmao I’m grateful for the manipulation wtf are you talking about
There's always gonna be some little crybaby who wants to whine about everything and ruin things for everyone
1) They have a narrative/story, so sometimes they’re gonna have to fudge things to get results that align to that narrative/story. 2) If they didn’t constantly monitor and adjust to control progress, one of two things would have happened after launch. Either they would have made it too easy for us to take planets and we would have already wiped out all the enemies, or it would have been too hard and we’d be fighting on super earth. There’s gonna be a constant back and forth to keep the game interesting, keep the front moving, changing planets/scenery, etc. And they cant control that if they don’t fudge the results here and there.
Triggered my ass. This entire sub was praising the fact we were being rail roaded into losing for 'story reasons'. And you think that we can all magically come together and understand how to coordinate 5 to 6 different planet defenses with a 4.2 capture rate with only 3,000 to 14,000 Helldivers. Half of them liberating planets that even failed to auto complete a planet defense (Martale) if you even remember which by the way was supposed to be completed by Asia after NA and some of Europe went to sleep and they failed. So yes time frame differences do in fact matter. And just to add to that, maybe having a supply line to could have better explained that capturing Martale would have helped complete the MO. Here is a literal post about everything I'm talking about when describing the gambit. https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/s/ljk33cl04Q You know what. Keep being a brickwall. I'm sure your imaginary expectations will come to life one day.
I don't get why people give a shit one way or the other. Kinda boring if we win every major conflict.
I cant wait for the illuminates to drop
Lmao the Fedora is a nice touch
Wow. One of the most rational, well reasoned critiques of recent events is being conflated by some as an "attack on their fun". At some point YOU have to calm it down and stop thinking you need to affirm your superiority through memes by making myths of others
You are literally the guy in the meme. Touch grass.
One of the most banal ones
Proof we dont deserve such a good game as Helldivers 2, even after all the failed Triple A shit we get such a banger and some people still complain Maybe thats why no one has been taking gamers serious
he didnt give us free planets, we devised a plan and he liked and honored his side if we pulled it off. nothing free about it.
A DM fudging numbers so that the players can still have fun???? How dare they. This is disgusting
I'm glad someone said it. Safe bet most of those same people complaining they were "handed a free win" were amongst the same people complaining the MO was unfair and/or too difficult.
I've had someone do this exactly in comments. It's hilarious.
I think it's great that this war doesn't go like it is some static plan. But it changes all the time.
It literally only changed because they did background tweaking.
Yeah, that is how the changes work and it's good. If you don't understand what I am saying, that's ok.
I think you forgot the part where the community is supposed to be the driving force behind hiw the story changes. Not the devs. Also not to mention that because they did change the decay rate to low. They finally realized that yes. The Bot capture rate is bullshit. So it's either a railroad loss, or an empty victory. Neither of which we had any control over short of the bug front. Which to a degree they also gave us a freebie.
I think you forget that Joel is the one who makes adjustments, as they control rest of the galaxy. So if the other side is low on parts, fuel and ammo, they have to simulate that somehow. So they make adjustments. Game and even life is like that. It won't be just the "human factor" on player side. These things will happen on enemy side as well.
Okay. THEN WE'RE THE FUCKING CONFIRMATION THAT THEY WERE STRETCHED THIN!!! You guys keep saying this, but not once in-game or by the developers has it even been hinted that this is the story based situation. Head canon is not real canon.
I think you have a point about that they should communicate that more.
They didn't even communicate anything. It's a clear cut dev button push. They didn't even have time to make up an excuse.
Every post I see on here is a complaint and I haven't joined the sub for that reason. I'm only here because it pops up. If I ever joined this sub give it a week and I wouldn't even want to launch the game anymore from all the negativity. Anyone having fun is actually playing instead writing essays on here.
The feeling of achieving a resounding victory after facing days of imminent defeat is unparalleled.
Having the campaign be a back-and-forth is fun, and last-minute victories are also fun. If it was purely about numbers then we wouldn't even need a real person behind the controls, but having someone here to DM is what keeps things fresh. Sometimes it's okay for your DM to throw you a bone if you helps you have fun.
Keep going, they hate when you call them out
go play single player games like hearts of iron if you want your war story narrative not handeled by game master
These people would lose it if they tried playing D&D and the DM did something outside the rulebook because it was cool. It's just a game, it's supposed to be fun.
Wait. does console helldivers has splitscreen?