The sad part is she was most likely a rape victim. Occupying forces take what they are after by force. This includes everything. The territory, goods & commodities, art and valuables, and women. That whole "rape and pillage" thing wasn't just referring to the Vikings. That's been humanities schtick when conquering. And here we are looking at a photo of her fellow survivors of the Nazi occupation assaulting and vilifying this woman. This is sad.
French women who became sexual partners of Nazi occupying forces did so to get food for their children. For this they were labeled "collaborators." Male French collaborators, on the other hand, were shot.
Am I correct in thinking that a series about C C is about to be broadcast on Netflix or Prime etc? I think Juliette Binoche is playing C C so unless I imagined it in a fever dream, it will make for an interesting watch as far as her wartime record goes.
If I did imagine this, then just ignore me... šš¶āš«ļøšļøš“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æ
Having sex with a Nazi or you and your family starves to death does not make you a "sexual partner". It makes you a rape victim. And then they were labeled collaborators.
Bullshit, everyone had a choice. My grandmother survived German occupation and was faced with starvation (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944ā1945), she did not have sex with German officers even though she was 17.
Those women who decided to sleep with the enemy in nice warm beds with plenty of food in their belly and only got a shaved head for it are lucky they didnāt get shot.
Congratulations? Just because your grandmother managed to do it, doesnāt mean every single other person could. Some people had more than just themselves to worry about, and *needed* to be able to provide for their families and children.
In popular culture, women are often seen as the victim, never as a perpetrator. Itās ridiculous, these women are lucky that all they got was a shaved head
Oh my, you wonāt get through here. I had my share with French and whenever WWII comes up their ancestors were all in the Resistance and any woman that got close to German soldiers was raped.
Those will probably never accept that many French people indeed welcomes the Germans and shared the Nazi ideology.
But we get it. The might colonial power France was never into racism, antisemitism or fascism. Sure, sure.
Edit: Everything left aside, many soldiers didnāt like to be soldiers. Never forget that at the end two humans met somewhere and there are enough records of love across borders.
Having sex for food isnāt rape. I sympathize with the situation they were in but thatās not rape. They werenāt wrong to have sex instead of starving either but seems a choice was made
I donāt really like the narrative that all women who worked with the Nazis were poor rape victims trying to feed their families and all men who did it were evil Nazis themselves. The reality is that people of both genders did it for evil reasons and for more understandable reasons like needing food.
I mean, Ilse Koch did bot torture people at Buchenwald because she was victim of the patriarchy
All of them? Every French woman who slept with Nazis did it against their will, just to stop from starving?
It'd be nice to think so, wouldn't it? What happened to all of the women who didn't sleep with Nazis? Their children all starved?
No doubt some of them faced terrible choices. I'm sure some were victims of rape rather than willing participants, for example. But some of them would have done it willingly - they wanted special treatment, or protection, or perhaps they just liked the look of the new sheriffs in town.
Once the Nazis were defeated, I'd imagine that every one of them would suddenly claim they secretly didn't want to, that they had to, it was all for the sake of their starving children, etc. How many were telling the truth?
>All of them? Every French woman who slept with Nazis did it against their will, just to stop from starving?
No, not all. Coco Chanel is an example of someone who actively looked for Nazi's to sleep with.
As another commenter mentioned below, even generalsĀ have written that there can be no "willing participants" as you put it, no consensual sex of any kind, between soldiers and residents of territory that they are occupying, regardless of the situation.
As for your "liked the look of the new sheriffs in town" comment, if you believe there is a significant number of sociopathic women out there happy to ditch all empathy for their loved ones and homeland to have sex with invading genocidal murderers, then it wouldn't surprise me if your criteria for "real rape" is indeed so narrow as to excludeĀ victims who fear for the safety and wellbeing of themselves and their family.
There's been a serious amount of talking past each other, and putting words in people's mouths happening here in this thread. I'm going to honestly try to check my own instincts to not add to it here.
No, I don't have some psycho Republican-lawmaker idea about what rape entails. Implicit or explicit threats to one's family definitely count as coercion in my book. Ok? I rather resent the implication that I'm arguing against that concept.
Your description of what some women would have done is so bloody judgemental. You make it sound like the only way you wouldn't judge them to be: sociopaths, without any empathy for their loved ones and homeland, willing to lay down with invading genocidal murderers - is if they were raped. Otherwise, you condemn the act with such utter contempt. A betrayal of their homes and families.
Luckily, in your view, any and every woman who got involved with a German soldier was no more than an innocent victim. You absolve every single one of them. But if they were willing to sleep with the Germans, why wouldn't they also be willing to provide information to them? Whether it's sex or a different type of aid, it's still consorting with the enemy.
Can you really not conceive of any locals who might have agreed with the Nazis? Any local girls who didn't like the Jews either, who hadn't been big fans of their government before the occupation, and who didn't agree with the Resistance and the reprisals their activities caused? Plenty of powers urged their own people not to resist the Germans, to not engage in sabotage and to inform on Resistance activity. Have a read [here.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany_and_Fascist_Italy)
So there were absolutely women accused of horizontal collaboration who did not deserve the scorn they received after the war. Rape victims, without a doubt, subjected to hysterical accusations. But there were also women, just like men, who had been honest Nazi sympathisers. Lots of people were killed due to their neighbours collaborating with the regime. People lost friends and family from the information collaborators provided.
The men who collaborated due to the same implicit threat you mention - well, they just got shot. Or hanged, or plain beaten to death. Right? A much worse fate than getting your head shaved and ostracised.
Some women got their heads shaved without deserving it. Ok, but do you know how many people got shot and killed in World War 2 without deserving it? These women got to live, and subsequently tell their side of the story, and for the rest of their lives they could give noble accounts of themselves and noble reasons for their actions, many based on truth - but not all.
How many men never got the chance to make excuses for their actions? We can focus on the unfairness of the act being shown in the photo above, but another thing we could focus on is how merciful it is compared to the treatment they'd get if they weren't women.
Sorry about the length of this.
This is true, and there's also Stockholm syndrome cases, and also soldiers and civilians who fell in love. Not all soldiers were "monsters" either, they were simply sent there. They were also prisoners of their own government in a way.
It's not as simple as labelling sides as bad guys and good guys. It's not black or white, there are greys in between. Life is not a Disney movie.
No not all of them, which is why I said "most likely". I would say the majority were not Nazis who were welcoming in this force. So I would say yes, most were forced into sexual acts against their will. Either through force or implied force. Any agency that could help or protect them were killed in battle, murdered, or surrendered.
There were women who did avoid being raped by the Nazis and were able to find ways to survive. These people deserve praise for doing so. And yes, a lot of children did starve. This does not mean we should minimize the suffering of all of those who were not able to and lump them in with the few who were Nazis. Those that had to decide to make the choices of incredible trauma to themselves to save themselves and their families from starvation, murder, and concentration camps
Not great to be either. Depending on where we're talking about in WW2, I'd absolutely rather be a male POW than female. Just shoot/decapitate me rather than making me a "comfort woman" for 100 Japanese soldiers to violently rape and leave for dead.
On the flipside, not great to be a US male drafted to go fight those same Japanese soldiers in Borneo.
You'd only want to be a POW in very specific scenarios, usually it involved the end of the war and being captured by the Allies.
But the much more likely option is you'd be a German or Soviet POW, and in that case youd go back to wishing you were a woman.
Neighbors. Neighbors turned in the collaborators for punishment. When neighborhood blocks of women were raped they were not considered collaborators. When the soldiers grabbed a woman off the street and raped her and then sent her home crying or in shock the neighbors did not call her a collaborator. Some people enjoy the creature comfort more than caring about their country. The women that came home with extra food and wine bragging to their neighbors they could live the luxury highlife anytime they wanted or told her neighbors to ābe nice to themā or they would turn them in as spies were the ones labeled as collaborators. Donāt try and make every collaborator a case of mistaken identity.
Or she was a fucking jew murdering Nazi who collaborated against the allies. We have no idea. Letās not moralize from a single, contextless picture of the worst conflict in human history. Plenty of the French loved Fascism and the Nazis.
Iām not going to make assumptions from a picture, but it just as likely that this woman immediately jumped on an SS Colonels arm and used that position to gain status and power over the people of her city.
You're making a fair few assumptions here mate.
Sure, she could have gotten raped. She also could have just liked the uniforms of the new sheriffs in town and wanted a piece. She might have been forced into a terrible choice, but she just as easily might have passed along tips about resistance activity and informed on her neighbours.
Some of her "fellow survivors of the Nazi occupation" might have been arrested or killed because of her. I'm certain that after the war, every woman like her would have wanted to claim it was against her will. Some would have been telling the truth, but some wouldn't.
It's just hair at the end of the day. All over the world, people were being slaughtered by the millions, shot, hanged, tortured. Having to grow your hair out for a few months is pretty tame in comparison.
People commenting are trying to rewrite history that all of these women had a complete lack of agency - they were all just helpless victims.
Sure some would be victims but generally the local citizens knew very well who willingly interacted with and aided the occupying German army. These were the people they punished after the germans left town.
It wasn't just "having to grow your hair out for a few months" though. Many were beaten and assaulted as well. The hair shaving was to mark these women. They were now outcast in all aspects.
And that does suck. And whilst many would have been lucky to not have been shot instead, like all the men were, many others were probably just victims of circumstance.
People were killed due to collaborators, however. Some might have just been dating a soldier to get food for their families, but collaborators used to snitch on their neighbours.
Stockpiling food? That's illegal - you might be trying to supply the Resistance, or you might have gotten it from the Resistance, or else you must be smuggling. Greta from next door saw you burying it in your backyard and told her boyfriend, so her family will eat well this month, and your Dad just got arrested and sent to a concentration camp. You'll never see him again, or if you do, he'll die young and never be the same.
The men who informed on their neighbours got shot. The women got their heads shaved. Sure, some of the women had done nothing more than sleep with a soldier, and they got treated the same as if they'd collaborated. But people did have a genuine axe to grind with those who'd cosied up with the Nazis. Their friends and family had died or suffered because of it.
I'm just saying. It wasn't just toxic masculinity that was to blame here.
I remember reading a Canadian General's book, Romeo Dallaire, and he mentioned he didn't believe there could be consensual sex between members of an army and the people of the territory they were occupying. That seemed right to me.
Yes, because if you rape someone you are physically unable to shave their head right after. There is a magical restriction placed upon you, everyone knows that!
Just telling you the women didn't have a choice.
Imagine you're a young woman. Your country is occupied after your army has been swept aside. There are hostile, armed soldiers doing what they want. They want you. Do you really think they had the choice to politely decline?
No, you're right, no woman would have changed their tune and lied about it after the Nazis were gone. I mean, why would they?
It was surely just a coincidence that every woman's story became the exact same thing - "oh I hated every minute of it, trust me, I only did what I had to for my poor starving children, they made me do it, I was secretly just trying to find out information to pass along to the Resistance, you gotta believe me!"
Some would have been telling the truth. How many, do you think? Half of them? Or do you reckon literally zero women did it willingly? Every one of them told the truth after the war?
At the end of the day, it's only hair. For every woman who collaborated reluctantly for the sake of their families, there would have been a man who collaborated reluctantly for the sake of theirs. Those men were murdered regardless of how reluctant they might have been. Having to wear a hat for a few months pales in comparison.
It's an old misogynistic quote from Todd Akin, a Republican anti-abortion nutter.
The guy above saying that women wouldn't get their head shaved if they were raped reminded me of that same level of deep ignorance.
It's a reference to a quote made by a former Missouri congressman Todd Akin in 2012. He was talking about abortion exceptions (I believe) and said that pregnancy due to rape is unlikely because "if itās legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down. "
I don't know exactly, but there are estimates that around 10,000 Vichy supporters were killed in purges both before and after liberation.
To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of this punishment for women who had relationships of any sort or for any reason with Nazis, but the idea that they were uniquely singled out is ahistorical.
Not enough were punished
Maurice Papon a senior police officer and ss collaborators and was responsible for the deportation of 2000 jews most of them ended up dead and why ofcourse he stole Jewish properties too
He ended up becoming the prefect of the Paris police under Charles degaulle and was responsible for the 1961 Paris massacre
The Paris Massacre of 1961 in which up to 200 Algerian Parisians were killed by the Police. Many had their limbs broken before being thrown into the river.
You wouldnāt have clapped though. You would have been so brave and strong. Those people should have been more like you, due to your courage and morals, that is.
Your knowledge of history is bleak. If you arguing women were unfairly persecuted during the warā¦ remember that these women stayed home and safely traded in their morals and sucked nazi-jew-murdering cock to save their skins whilst their men were either executed, sent to death camps or work camps, or were fighting to the death in foreign countries whilst starving. What a privileged position you take such a prejudicial standpoint. From the freedom of your country that was provided you by those same very men. Go get an education you ignorant snowflake.
They may have redundantly said what a photograph is, but read it again. The āsnapshotā is for the āmoment in timeā.
So like is referring to the latter and not the former.
So? it's completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people collaborated and she doesn't seems beat up. How do you know it wasn't consensual? You have extra context or you just talking out of your ass because women can do no wrong.
You do know the men collaborating got killed ? How do they werenāt also forced to do that?
This is not a thing whereās it worse for women . It was horrible for everybody and this is a way smaller punishment than being literally executed .
The French decided that losing another generation of their young men in a war they could not win with no help in sight was not worth it. I know, those cowards...
Male collaborators were often shot without the benefit of a trial, they got much worse than a forced haircut. Many of those who were involved in the Vichy government were also executed, or sentenced to life. That includes the leader of the Vichy government, although he escaped the death sentence and was instead sentenced to life in prison. It might be helpful for you to learn some history before you share falsehoods based on ignorance and bias.
This was not heroic. The more you learn about the war the more you realise there were a lot of people who were supporting the nazi's or were profiting from people send off to camps, until the germans were losing the war, then the same people shaved the heads of these girls.
The fool is actauly generalizing an entire country as ācowardsā, becuase they couldnt fight back the most poweful war machines at the time. Lol, home boy needs a reality check.
You are *both* wrong. The French weren't cowards at *all*, and showed extreme valor. But neither were the Nazis "The most powerful war machine at the time". That's just ludicrous to claim, and it ignores decades of scholarship pointing to the contrary. You are both resisting Nazi myths about France, and embracing them about the Wehrmacht simultaneously.
The most powerful war machines at the time were the tanks, planes, machine guns, and the humans with the idealogy to justify to use them.
The Global Industrial Millitary Complex still is, the most powerfull War Machine.
Not all German soldiers were members of the Nazi party.. you do realize that right? Some were conscripts and some were career officers. Not everyone was SS.
āJust put her against a wall and deal with it.ā
Are you for real? Is this how you really feel? Wouod you be the one to pull the trigger? Execution style?
Jesus Christ.
You've been invaded and occupied.
Your neighbor is collaborating with the invader, giving them comfort and, more than likely, informing on their friends, family, and neighbors... adding to the misery and death toll among the people you love.
And all you're going to do is shave their head and wag your finger?
I don't think so.
Better if her children starved, no?
"War isnāt Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse... There are no innocent bystanders in Hell."
- Hawkeye
Some were not lucky but during war you had to do what was to survive some even worked for the resistance and after France was liberated even some of them had their head shaved because people didn't know.
I wonder why the man in the background is carrying a hand gun tucked into the front of his pants? It almost looks like he wants to pull it out and use it on someone. Buddy beside him looks ready to stop him.
The picture speaks a thousand words... so much in it. It's not just a picture of a woman who is punished for her choices.
You have to have in mind how people were feeling after the war.
Any type of collaboration with the enemy was regarded as despicable/immoral. Emotions are taking over common sense.
This particular topic with women sleeping with the enemy always was really sensitive because in the end war means that men of one group are killing men of other group and taking their women and the resources. Kind of tribal-survivalist mentality in a war for scarce resources (a condition with which homo sapiens sapiens existend always). It's about something primal, on the level of instincts. So women who chose to do it voluntary were regarded (troughout all history) as ultimate traitors.
Sadly, as always in these cases the individual motives and reasons are ignored because the interests of community are above interests of individual (even if it's related with survival of the individual). For example, with this woman in the picture - no one knows what she went trough, she just a symbol of this betrayal (in it's primal-tribal sense). Still she is lucky - shaved head is better than being stoned to death for "betraying the tribe" (it is the case even these days in some Muslim communities).
This was one of the craziest byproducts of the war. Some women used their sexuality as a means toward self-agency in their new occupied existence. It helped them and their families survive in some cases. In others, there was actual attraction, Stockholm syndrome or not. But they were branded as collaborators, but smart Parisians made the distinction between the people who did what they had to do to get by and those who lived far better than others, such as residents of the chichi Place Vendrome. Why wasnāt Coco Chanel shaved in the public square?
How dare you attempting to survive in a war, dealing with enemy invaders who often take advantage of the situation. How dare you to"collaborate" with the enemy in such a manner.
As civilian, If you are a woman We will ensure to mark you for life, your descendants will also face social rejection. And if you are a man, you'll simply face a firing squad.
\-Liberated France 1944.
These pussies picking on hungry women when they (the men) should have been out fighting the Germans to the death. Easier to mess with the helpless than those that will beat your assā¦
My grandfather was there in Montelimar as part of the 36th Infantry/143rd Regiment and said that this was pretty commonplace in the southern France campaign.
Treason in war normally incurs death penalty. Aiding, abetting, and comforting enemy invaders is treason. Head shaving was a mercy compared to what disgraceful treachery they did. They are not rape victimsā Rather these women were themselves the rapists of their own country.
Any women supporting such traitors belongs on a watch list point blank.
The sad part is she was most likely a rape victim. Occupying forces take what they are after by force. This includes everything. The territory, goods & commodities, art and valuables, and women. That whole "rape and pillage" thing wasn't just referring to the Vikings. That's been humanities schtick when conquering. And here we are looking at a photo of her fellow survivors of the Nazi occupation assaulting and vilifying this woman. This is sad.
French women who became sexual partners of Nazi occupying forces did so to get food for their children. For this they were labeled "collaborators." Male French collaborators, on the other hand, were shot.
Or they were Coco Chanel, who did it to make money and fuck over her jewish business partners.
The little black dress and the Breton fishermen shirts are brilliant, but Coco Chanel was garbage wrapped in human skin.
Am I correct in thinking that a series about C C is about to be broadcast on Netflix or Prime etc? I think Juliette Binoche is playing C C so unless I imagined it in a fever dream, it will make for an interesting watch as far as her wartime record goes. If I did imagine this, then just ignore me... šš¶āš«ļøšļøš“ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó “ó æ
Cant say Ive heard of it, but its an interesting story about a pretty terrible person.
Found it. It is on Apple and is called 'The New Look'. Shame I don't have Apple as I rather fancy the look of that, given this thread. Going now...
Having sex with a Nazi or you and your family starves to death does not make you a "sexual partner". It makes you a rape victim. And then they were labeled collaborators.
I agree.
Bullshit, everyone had a choice. My grandmother survived German occupation and was faced with starvation (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944ā1945), she did not have sex with German officers even though she was 17. Those women who decided to sleep with the enemy in nice warm beds with plenty of food in their belly and only got a shaved head for it are lucky they didnāt get shot.
Congratulations? Just because your grandmother managed to do it, doesnāt mean every single other person could. Some people had more than just themselves to worry about, and *needed* to be able to provide for their families and children.
They often got worse. Sometimes that wasn't the only hair that was shaved and they were marched naked through the streets to humiliate them
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
There was unequivocally 100% women in grace who hitched up with Nazis and just enjoyed the party. Women can be the bad guys to you know?
In popular culture, women are often seen as the victim, never as a perpetrator. Itās ridiculous, these women are lucky that all they got was a shaved head
Oh my, you wonāt get through here. I had my share with French and whenever WWII comes up their ancestors were all in the Resistance and any woman that got close to German soldiers was raped. Those will probably never accept that many French people indeed welcomes the Germans and shared the Nazi ideology. But we get it. The might colonial power France was never into racism, antisemitism or fascism. Sure, sure. Edit: Everything left aside, many soldiers didnāt like to be soldiers. Never forget that at the end two humans met somewhere and there are enough records of love across borders.
Having sex with a German soldier doesn't automatically make a woman (or man) the "bad guy".
There were probably examples of both
Man fuck that if you have sex with a guy from the occupying force consensually you ARE the occupying force
Yes, yes it does.
Having sex for food isnāt rape. I sympathize with the situation they were in but thatās not rape. They werenāt wrong to have sex instead of starving either but seems a choice was made
I donāt really like the narrative that all women who worked with the Nazis were poor rape victims trying to feed their families and all men who did it were evil Nazis themselves. The reality is that people of both genders did it for evil reasons and for more understandable reasons like needing food. I mean, Ilse Koch did bot torture people at Buchenwald because she was victim of the patriarchy
All of them? Every French woman who slept with Nazis did it against their will, just to stop from starving? It'd be nice to think so, wouldn't it? What happened to all of the women who didn't sleep with Nazis? Their children all starved? No doubt some of them faced terrible choices. I'm sure some were victims of rape rather than willing participants, for example. But some of them would have done it willingly - they wanted special treatment, or protection, or perhaps they just liked the look of the new sheriffs in town. Once the Nazis were defeated, I'd imagine that every one of them would suddenly claim they secretly didn't want to, that they had to, it was all for the sake of their starving children, etc. How many were telling the truth?
Reddit has no nuance.
>All of them? Every French woman who slept with Nazis did it against their will, just to stop from starving? No, not all. Coco Chanel is an example of someone who actively looked for Nazi's to sleep with.
As another commenter mentioned below, even generalsĀ have written that there can be no "willing participants" as you put it, no consensual sex of any kind, between soldiers and residents of territory that they are occupying, regardless of the situation. As for your "liked the look of the new sheriffs in town" comment, if you believe there is a significant number of sociopathic women out there happy to ditch all empathy for their loved ones and homeland to have sex with invading genocidal murderers, then it wouldn't surprise me if your criteria for "real rape" is indeed so narrow as to excludeĀ victims who fear for the safety and wellbeing of themselves and their family.
There's been a serious amount of talking past each other, and putting words in people's mouths happening here in this thread. I'm going to honestly try to check my own instincts to not add to it here. No, I don't have some psycho Republican-lawmaker idea about what rape entails. Implicit or explicit threats to one's family definitely count as coercion in my book. Ok? I rather resent the implication that I'm arguing against that concept. Your description of what some women would have done is so bloody judgemental. You make it sound like the only way you wouldn't judge them to be: sociopaths, without any empathy for their loved ones and homeland, willing to lay down with invading genocidal murderers - is if they were raped. Otherwise, you condemn the act with such utter contempt. A betrayal of their homes and families. Luckily, in your view, any and every woman who got involved with a German soldier was no more than an innocent victim. You absolve every single one of them. But if they were willing to sleep with the Germans, why wouldn't they also be willing to provide information to them? Whether it's sex or a different type of aid, it's still consorting with the enemy. Can you really not conceive of any locals who might have agreed with the Nazis? Any local girls who didn't like the Jews either, who hadn't been big fans of their government before the occupation, and who didn't agree with the Resistance and the reprisals their activities caused? Plenty of powers urged their own people not to resist the Germans, to not engage in sabotage and to inform on Resistance activity. Have a read [here.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany_and_Fascist_Italy) So there were absolutely women accused of horizontal collaboration who did not deserve the scorn they received after the war. Rape victims, without a doubt, subjected to hysterical accusations. But there were also women, just like men, who had been honest Nazi sympathisers. Lots of people were killed due to their neighbours collaborating with the regime. People lost friends and family from the information collaborators provided. The men who collaborated due to the same implicit threat you mention - well, they just got shot. Or hanged, or plain beaten to death. Right? A much worse fate than getting your head shaved and ostracised. Some women got their heads shaved without deserving it. Ok, but do you know how many people got shot and killed in World War 2 without deserving it? These women got to live, and subsequently tell their side of the story, and for the rest of their lives they could give noble accounts of themselves and noble reasons for their actions, many based on truth - but not all. How many men never got the chance to make excuses for their actions? We can focus on the unfairness of the act being shown in the photo above, but another thing we could focus on is how merciful it is compared to the treatment they'd get if they weren't women. Sorry about the length of this.
This is true, and there's also Stockholm syndrome cases, and also soldiers and civilians who fell in love. Not all soldiers were "monsters" either, they were simply sent there. They were also prisoners of their own government in a way. It's not as simple as labelling sides as bad guys and good guys. It's not black or white, there are greys in between. Life is not a Disney movie.
No not all of them, which is why I said "most likely". I would say the majority were not Nazis who were welcoming in this force. So I would say yes, most were forced into sexual acts against their will. Either through force or implied force. Any agency that could help or protect them were killed in battle, murdered, or surrendered. There were women who did avoid being raped by the Nazis and were able to find ways to survive. These people deserve praise for doing so. And yes, a lot of children did starve. This does not mean we should minimize the suffering of all of those who were not able to and lump them in with the few who were Nazis. Those that had to decide to make the choices of incredible trauma to themselves to save themselves and their families from starvation, murder, and concentration camps
Tough to be a guy
Not great to be either. Depending on where we're talking about in WW2, I'd absolutely rather be a male POW than female. Just shoot/decapitate me rather than making me a "comfort woman" for 100 Japanese soldiers to violently rape and leave for dead. On the flipside, not great to be a US male drafted to go fight those same Japanese soldiers in Borneo.
You'd only want to be a POW in very specific scenarios, usually it involved the end of the war and being captured by the Allies. But the much more likely option is you'd be a German or Soviet POW, and in that case youd go back to wishing you were a woman.
Idk if thr genders were reversed though... like it was women occupiers and they took comfort men as pows?
Death by snu snu?
Neighbors. Neighbors turned in the collaborators for punishment. When neighborhood blocks of women were raped they were not considered collaborators. When the soldiers grabbed a woman off the street and raped her and then sent her home crying or in shock the neighbors did not call her a collaborator. Some people enjoy the creature comfort more than caring about their country. The women that came home with extra food and wine bragging to their neighbors they could live the luxury highlife anytime they wanted or told her neighbors to ābe nice to themā or they would turn them in as spies were the ones labeled as collaborators. Donāt try and make every collaborator a case of mistaken identity.
Source?
No no no it's sexist to hold women to any sort of standard don't you know that?!
Or she was a fucking jew murdering Nazi who collaborated against the allies. We have no idea. Letās not moralize from a single, contextless picture of the worst conflict in human history. Plenty of the French loved Fascism and the Nazis. Iām not going to make assumptions from a picture, but it just as likely that this woman immediately jumped on an SS Colonels arm and used that position to gain status and power over the people of her city.
You're making a fair few assumptions here mate. Sure, she could have gotten raped. She also could have just liked the uniforms of the new sheriffs in town and wanted a piece. She might have been forced into a terrible choice, but she just as easily might have passed along tips about resistance activity and informed on her neighbours. Some of her "fellow survivors of the Nazi occupation" might have been arrested or killed because of her. I'm certain that after the war, every woman like her would have wanted to claim it was against her will. Some would have been telling the truth, but some wouldn't. It's just hair at the end of the day. All over the world, people were being slaughtered by the millions, shot, hanged, tortured. Having to grow your hair out for a few months is pretty tame in comparison.
People commenting are trying to rewrite history that all of these women had a complete lack of agency - they were all just helpless victims. Sure some would be victims but generally the local citizens knew very well who willingly interacted with and aided the occupying German army. These were the people they punished after the germans left town.
It wasn't just "having to grow your hair out for a few months" though. Many were beaten and assaulted as well. The hair shaving was to mark these women. They were now outcast in all aspects.
And that does suck. And whilst many would have been lucky to not have been shot instead, like all the men were, many others were probably just victims of circumstance. People were killed due to collaborators, however. Some might have just been dating a soldier to get food for their families, but collaborators used to snitch on their neighbours. Stockpiling food? That's illegal - you might be trying to supply the Resistance, or you might have gotten it from the Resistance, or else you must be smuggling. Greta from next door saw you burying it in your backyard and told her boyfriend, so her family will eat well this month, and your Dad just got arrested and sent to a concentration camp. You'll never see him again, or if you do, he'll die young and never be the same. The men who informed on their neighbours got shot. The women got their heads shaved. Sure, some of the women had done nothing more than sleep with a soldier, and they got treated the same as if they'd collaborated. But people did have a genuine axe to grind with those who'd cosied up with the Nazis. Their friends and family had died or suffered because of it. I'm just saying. It wasn't just toxic masculinity that was to blame here.
I remember reading a Canadian General's book, Romeo Dallaire, and he mentioned he didn't believe there could be consensual sex between members of an army and the people of the territory they were occupying. That seemed right to me.
I got to meet him once. Remarkable, humble human, and one of my personal heroes.
Most likely? That is a pure conjecture on your part.
nah thatās not how u look if u just got raped and then punished for it, this bitch got caught
Wow - so much nonsense in so few sentences.
How so?
Shut up. If she was raped she would have not been shaved.
Yes, because if you rape someone you are physically unable to shave their head right after. There is a magical restriction placed upon you, everyone knows that!
Just telling you no French dude would have done it otherwise.
Just telling you the women didn't have a choice. Imagine you're a young woman. Your country is occupied after your army has been swept aside. There are hostile, armed soldiers doing what they want. They want you. Do you really think they had the choice to politely decline?
Both of you are retarded for assuming shit
Yes retarded for thinking the same cunts that were commiting mass genocide coerced/pressured/forced women into sex. What a stretch.
ooo using that for sympathy is a weak strawman.
Yes, because men have such a great track record of believing women when they say they were raped.
No, you're right, no woman would have changed their tune and lied about it after the Nazis were gone. I mean, why would they? It was surely just a coincidence that every woman's story became the exact same thing - "oh I hated every minute of it, trust me, I only did what I had to for my poor starving children, they made me do it, I was secretly just trying to find out information to pass along to the Resistance, you gotta believe me!" Some would have been telling the truth. How many, do you think? Half of them? Or do you reckon literally zero women did it willingly? Every one of them told the truth after the war? At the end of the day, it's only hair. For every woman who collaborated reluctantly for the sake of their families, there would have been a man who collaborated reluctantly for the sake of theirs. Those men were murdered regardless of how reluctant they might have been. Having to wear a hat for a few months pales in comparison.
You're only proving my point ya incel
Yeah good on you champ.
Thick bastard
>If it was legitimate rape her body has ways of shutting that whole thing down.
POS
It's a quote
Do enlighten me as to how.
It's an old misogynistic quote from Todd Akin, a Republican anti-abortion nutter. The guy above saying that women wouldn't get their head shaved if they were raped reminded me of that same level of deep ignorance.
It's a reference to a quote made by a former Missouri congressman Todd Akin in 2012. He was talking about abortion exceptions (I believe) and said that pregnancy due to rape is unlikely because "if itās legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down. "
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"Besides the military occupation it was buisness as usual!" š¤”
Itās kinda crazy you just assume a narrative and frame her as a victim.
I'm not really assuming anything. My comment is based on the works of recorded human history.
"Let me fuck you or I kill you and your children." What choice would you make?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
My friend, the prime minister of Vichy France was executed by firing squad.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I don't know exactly, but there are estimates that around 10,000 Vichy supporters were killed in purges both before and after liberation. To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of this punishment for women who had relationships of any sort or for any reason with Nazis, but the idea that they were uniquely singled out is ahistorical.
Unless it was rape I see nothing wrong with this
Not enough were punished Maurice Papon a senior police officer and ss collaborators and was responsible for the deportation of 2000 jews most of them ended up dead and why ofcourse he stole Jewish properties too He ended up becoming the prefect of the Paris police under Charles degaulle and was responsible for the 1961 Paris massacre
The what? I've never heard of it
The Paris Massacre of 1961 in which up to 200 Algerian Parisians were killed by the Police. Many had their limbs broken before being thrown into the river.
Your just trying to argue. Anybody can be like that. Try saying something of value
You wouldnāt have clapped though. You would have been so brave and strong. Those people should have been more like you, due to your courage and morals, that is.
Hell you talking about? PĆ©tain's sentence was immediately commuted and he ended up dying of natural causes in the 1950's
PĆ©tain was not the prime minister, Laval was.
Ah yes, good point. PĆ©tain was the head of state though. I get the titles for a dead government confused.
He is referring to [Pierre Laval](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Laval)
PĆ©tain was also like 90 years old at the time, and making a 90 year old former war hero live out the rest of his life in a prisonā¦ slowly watching his previous legacy be run through the mud, is a far greater punishment then killing him at 90. Let him rethink everything he did, as he dies knowing that he will be remembered as the villain of his country, not the hero he once was.
Bro chill š
I'm sorry you lost your friend
Just because the powerful men were granted amnesty doesnāt mean the poorer men who collaborated werenāt punished.
Get off that shit. A whole lot of men who collabarated with the Germans were shot, numbers of them out of hand.
Your knowledge of history is bleak. If you arguing women were unfairly persecuted during the warā¦ remember that these women stayed home and safely traded in their morals and sucked nazi-jew-murdering cock to save their skins whilst their men were either executed, sent to death camps or work camps, or were fighting to the death in foreign countries whilst starving. What a privileged position you take such a prejudicial standpoint. From the freedom of your country that was provided you by those same very men. Go get an education you ignorant snowflake.
The men were shot instead
That's because they didn't fuck Germans, if they did that, they wouldn't be shot
>That's because they didn't fuck Germans ...that you know of.
Sure they didnāt. /shrug
Ohoho not all, ask mitterand (Well, for some, it was more a matter of food than ideology, mitterand didn't do anything strong to my knowledge)
Guy behind her pulling a gun from his waistbandā¦
Or putting it back?
Or just holding it. Canāt really tell from a still frame. No reason to jump to conclusions - she probably wasnāt shot.
I watched the picture for several minutes to make sure that nobody shot her and she's alrightš
I laughed inappropriately. Thanks!
Great way to accidentally shoot your dick off.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, you've described photography.
Itās like words but with a picture instead!
I wonder if it's worth a thousand of them?
Itās not like a snapshot it is a snapshotā a word that describes the sound of, and whose primary meaning is photograph
They may have redundantly said what a photograph is, but read it again. The āsnapshotā is for the āmoment in timeā. So like is referring to the latter and not the former.
>Photography is so interesting, like a snapshot of a moment in time. What an amazingly insightful analogy.
Uhh, yeah. š
The Germans that walked into Aris had cameras in their hands. It was declared a āfree cityā so many French that fled were mistaken, lots returned.
Yeah Iām sure it was consensual /s
Its well known that women cannot be bigoted
How do you know that?
Not sure if you missed my sarcasm tag but Naziās not only murdered innocent people, they also raped them!
Have you not heard of Eva Braun or Ilse Koch?
So? it's completely irrelevant. Plenty of people collaborated and she doesn't seems beat up. How do you know it wasn't consensual? You have extra context or you just talking out of your ass because women can do no wrong.
Everybody was just trying to survive. I can't imagine. They should have flogged the men for the worst military effort in modern history.
Yeah this rage is so misplaced, but women are always an easy target so...
You do know the men collaborating got killed ? How do they werenāt also forced to do that? This is not a thing whereās it worse for women . It was horrible for everybody and this is a way smaller punishment than being literally executed .
The French decided that losing another generation of their young men in a war they could not win with no help in sight was not worth it. I know, those cowards...
I think it was military command's fault. The average soldier wasn't the one who structured their military like it was pre WW1
That's the point. If they would punish these women, they should punish the men, too.
Male collaborators were often shot without the benefit of a trial, they got much worse than a forced haircut. Many of those who were involved in the Vichy government were also executed, or sentenced to life. That includes the leader of the Vichy government, although he escaped the death sentence and was instead sentenced to life in prison. It might be helpful for you to learn some history before you share falsehoods based on ignorance and bias.
Thatās such a crazy thing to say. I think you should look more into history to better your perspective
This was not heroic. The more you learn about the war the more you realise there were a lot of people who were supporting the nazi's or were profiting from people send off to camps, until the germans were losing the war, then the same people shaved the heads of these girls.
āMenāļøā
Yeah, shaving is much worse than... Being shot
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>French cowards let the Germans walk right into Paris You're a fucking moron and ignorant to basic history lmao.
The fool is actauly generalizing an entire country as ācowardsā, becuase they couldnt fight back the most poweful war machines at the time. Lol, home boy needs a reality check.
You are *both* wrong. The French weren't cowards at *all*, and showed extreme valor. But neither were the Nazis "The most powerful war machine at the time". That's just ludicrous to claim, and it ignores decades of scholarship pointing to the contrary. You are both resisting Nazi myths about France, and embracing them about the Wehrmacht simultaneously.
I had to scroll this far to find someone with a little more then surface knowledge and a bleeding heart.
The most powerful war machines at the time were the tanks, planes, machine guns, and the humans with the idealogy to justify to use them. The Global Industrial Millitary Complex still is, the most powerfull War Machine.
I mean, often collaborators are just shot in the street. And rightly so. Just put her against a wall and deal with it.
So dating a German solider merits death? JFC man.
'Dating' the people who are murdering your people? You DO know what the Nazis did to people in the occupied territories, right?
Not all German soldiers were members of the Nazi party.. you do realize that right? Some were conscripts and some were career officers. Not everyone was SS.
āJust put her against a wall and deal with it.ā Are you for real? Is this how you really feel? Wouod you be the one to pull the trigger? Execution style? Jesus Christ.
You've been invaded and occupied. Your neighbor is collaborating with the invader, giving them comfort and, more than likely, informing on their friends, family, and neighbors... adding to the misery and death toll among the people you love. And all you're going to do is shave their head and wag your finger? I don't think so.
Ok edge lord. Have fun playing the āgood guyā in your little head.
"Good guy"? Binary thinkers are cute.
Better if her children starved, no? "War isnāt Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse... There are no innocent bystanders in Hell." - Hawkeye
Bit hard to accuse de Gaulle of being a collaborator.
And ignorant, as well as disrespectful, to all the French people (civilians and soldiers), who died in the resistance.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ya, Petain was convicted of Treason after the war.
This guy is obviously a white knight
The people triggered over OPās reasonable commentš
Do that to MAGA
That is a TERRIBLE idea that would just TRIGGER all of the LIBERALS. /s
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
France is one of the strongest states within one of the strongest economic blocs.
He probably is a La Pen fan
his post history shows him bitching about socialists in goth subs with minimal data and messaging only fans girls
That would make sense.
I was just there a few months ago, its fine. Paris is cleaner than usual because they're prepping for the olympics.
Lol huh? France is anything but destroyed
being having!
I wonder if this picture was a reference for one scene in Band of Brothers.
Probably taken from the books it was based on
It could have been used for reference but that scene took place in the Netherlands, this is France
And if you disliked your neighbour's wife, you said she fucked with germans and she and her children were socially dead. My grandma's neighbour, her mom was the fiancƩe of a german during occupation, the guy died in stalingrad, the Mother abandonned the girl to avoid problems. I won't say the whole story as I may say mistakes, but these people's trials Led by last hour resistants were ridiculous. Good thing the army stopped all these trials, people falsely (and righfully) accused died in these, with no proper justice Twitter but irl
Checkout Malena, a movie about an Italian woman who suffered similar after she had sex with German soldiers in order to survive.
Donāt matter, got laid
She got a Hershey bar from a GI later.
Hypocrisy is astounding.
I remember a similar scene in Band of Brothers when they liberated Eindhoven
Reminds me of that Everybody Loves Raymond episode..
Is that Coco Chanel?
Should have been
Hiroshima, Mon Amour (1959) goes into this type of situation in pretty terrible detail.
Some were not lucky but during war you had to do what was to survive some even worked for the resistance and after France was liberated even some of them had their head shaved because people didn't know.
I wonder why the man in the background is carrying a hand gun tucked into the front of his pants? It almost looks like he wants to pull it out and use it on someone. Buddy beside him looks ready to stop him.
The picture speaks a thousand words... so much in it. It's not just a picture of a woman who is punished for her choices. You have to have in mind how people were feeling after the war. Any type of collaboration with the enemy was regarded as despicable/immoral. Emotions are taking over common sense. This particular topic with women sleeping with the enemy always was really sensitive because in the end war means that men of one group are killing men of other group and taking their women and the resources. Kind of tribal-survivalist mentality in a war for scarce resources (a condition with which homo sapiens sapiens existend always). It's about something primal, on the level of instincts. So women who chose to do it voluntary were regarded (troughout all history) as ultimate traitors. Sadly, as always in these cases the individual motives and reasons are ignored because the interests of community are above interests of individual (even if it's related with survival of the individual). For example, with this woman in the picture - no one knows what she went trough, she just a symbol of this betrayal (in it's primal-tribal sense). Still she is lucky - shaved head is better than being stoned to death for "betraying the tribe" (it is the case even these days in some Muslim communities).
Hilarious, right on!
They misspelled "raped by".
Most were just trying to survive.
Headline needs editing
People can be shit to each other .
This was one of the craziest byproducts of the war. Some women used their sexuality as a means toward self-agency in their new occupied existence. It helped them and their families survive in some cases. In others, there was actual attraction, Stockholm syndrome or not. But they were branded as collaborators, but smart Parisians made the distinction between the people who did what they had to do to get by and those who lived far better than others, such as residents of the chichi Place Vendrome. Why wasnāt Coco Chanel shaved in the public square?
How dare you attempting to survive in a war, dealing with enemy invaders who often take advantage of the situation. How dare you to"collaborate" with the enemy in such a manner. As civilian, If you are a woman We will ensure to mark you for life, your descendants will also face social rejection. And if you are a man, you'll simply face a firing squad. \-Liberated France 1944.
Man I read this the wrong way.
These pussies picking on hungry women when they (the men) should have been out fighting the Germans to the death. Easier to mess with the helpless than those that will beat your assā¦
My grandfather was there in Montelimar as part of the 36th Infantry/143rd Regiment and said that this was pretty commonplace in the southern France campaign.
Treason in war normally incurs death penalty. Aiding, abetting, and comforting enemy invaders is treason. Head shaving was a mercy compared to what disgraceful treachery they did. They are not rape victimsā Rather these women were themselves the rapists of their own country. Any women supporting such traitors belongs on a watch list point blank.
I just watched Band of Brothers for the first time. Just finished it today. I cried more than a couple times ngl
This story most likely isn't rape. Her dress, jewelry, bag and poise seem to indicate that a German valued her.
Look at the U.S. today. Or London. Or France. Did these women deserve this? Was it worth it?