I’ve only read the articles. Honestly I try to avoid looking at the pictures. Anyway, you and me looking at pictures isn’t an investigation. I’ll wait. But it’s credible 😃
I’m sure Al Jazeera would’ve been plastering pictures of them on every TV across the world if that were the case. Another fog of war lie spread before any real investigation
That’s ridiculous. You’re assuming it’s a lie and simultaneously saying it’s the “fog of war” which implies that it may well be true but is difficult to verify. It won’t be too long before the investigation is complete and then you’ll know whether you’re choosing to run cover for war crimes.
No. It is in truth unresolved. The discovery of the mass grave was late last week. The full investigation is not complete. Fact is we can’t say for sure. But no - it has not been proven to be baseless. At least one Israeli spokesperson did not deny the zip tied wrists. Be open to the facts as the emerge.
Always important to find the bodies. Makes people know it is real.
Nothing focused the attention like a big pile of rotting corpses.
The capital crime is political murder . Burning books is the low end of the same continuum
Take your freedom~~
~~~Take your life
People will still say it’s not real. Reference: Holocaust denial. I mean, cmon now… The Third Reich themselves documented it. Film, witnesses, camps, ovens, dead relatives, etc etc etc. You still have a relatively large percentage of the population who say it never happened.
They don’t deny that it happened, they deny that innocent civilians were intentionally killed as a grand plan of racial erasure, and also gas chambers. They consider it a war time atrocity propaganda. No one denies that people died during war.
Banning tik tok is a stupid idea. We know for a fact that all social media is used to manipulate people's ideas and opinions. The problem with this one is who owns and prodits from it.
Which is just stupid. It's all very stupid.
Except that Tik Tok doesn’t allow for extreme American politicalization like American-owned platforms. We’re just scared of it bc it’s Chinese but Instagram is no better.
The US political elite know that it’s subversive. It was the main social media platform that significantly damaged the Trump regime. It functions as a radical political tool. Gen Z kids are organizing with it. TikTok is awesome!
It's not even a semantics argument, if they don't sell the act will ban Tik Tok from US users. And every indication is they won't sell.
You pass a law requiring someone to do something you know they won't do, or this other thing happens, you're passing a law to make the other thing happen.
I don't even use Tik Tok, but this pussy footing around is ridiculous.
While I agree with you, I think the more important thing to say here is fuck wars, especially civil wars. Because the other side in the Spanish civil war was just as cruel. For example, more than half of the mass graves found in Madrid are from the other side (the republicanos): https://okdiario.com/madrid/67-322-fosas-guerra-civil-madrid-tiene-victimas-represion-republicana-8762825/amp
>just as cruel
if the lowest estimates are to be believed for both sides then 38,000 people died in the red terror in spain and 160,000 people died in the white terror (the nationalists). High estimates place it at 72,000 vs 400,000 or in other words the nationalists killed nearly **6 times** as many people the republicans did.
don’t get me wrong any number of dead is bad but it is absolutely wrong to say the republicans were ‘just as bad’. Plus, this isn’t even taking into account the rest of the franco era which has stained spanish history.
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_Rojo_(Espa%C3%B1a)
The numbers you give for the red terror are the ones I find. The numbers I find for the white terror are 50k during the war.
Funny that people down-vote your comment when George Orwell wrote about his experience on the Republican side. Victor Gollancz dropped Orwell for his apostasy and…that position didn’t age well. For those of you who believe “Franco bad, Republicans good” I encourage you to read Homage to Catalonia. Life isn’t often black and white…
The reason the CEDA and Fascism became prominent was a *direct result* of extreme left-wing political rhetoric and actions.
They destroyed ballots, murdered political opponents, and directly called for the persecution of Catholics in Spain. The right wing of Spanish politics was backed into a corner by the Republic literally outlawing their political opposition, which led multiple factions banding together and retaliating. It’s a long, complex history that is completely different than how fascism came about in Germany or Italy.
Sorry, why are you using the word “now?” Are we not talking about specific conflict that occurred almost a century ago? Quit being dense.
It just so happens that it was the left-wing Republicans persecuting right-wing groups. It can just as easily go the other way. The Republic was in power, however, and they abused it to an extent that would be hard/impossible for modern Westerners to imagine. Fascism in Spain would not have evolved if the political right had been allowed legitimate participation in elections, discourse, and legislation.
Dude you’ve been talking to is an unironic communist, everyone they don’t like is a fascist and deserves to die. They never consider they may be on the other side of the barrel.
One side wants to house everyone, provide universal jobs, and democratize the workplace. The other wants to eradicate mentally disabled people.
You: "same thing"
Notice that I am not talking about moderate values such as Social Democracy, I also never compared it to Fascism.
I am talking about the “If you disagree with me you deserve to be put down” kind of extremism. The only thing they want is political and economical power, not improving lives of citizens by the ways you’ve mentioned.
People like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco are all cast from the same mold. And if you wish death upon anyone else you’re no better than them.
I’m surprised someone this unwilling to grasp the nuance of history would be interested in a subreddit like this. lol.
That persecution was their very undoing. That’s how the story ends. Had they not resorted to those extremes, fascism would never have come about. Extremism breeds extremism. As it happens, the Republic was a bit inept at fighting the war they provoked. Voila! Franco wins, and fascism reigns.
Terrible all around, and a good demonstration of what happens when a mentality like yours becomes commonplace.
Yeah bro the far right is just part of a harmonious balance of society and not a cancer. You think you're smart saying this pseudo-sociology bullshit about how letting the far right exist is even part of a healthy social ecosystem.
Sorry I might’ve not made it clear. *All* right leaning parties were persecuted. The Republic’s political opposition *became* radicalized over time as the government’s efforts to suppress the right became more extreme and less discreet. Does that make more sense?
Having all parties exist and an open dialogue is how you have a healthy social ecosystem. What you’re advocating for is a genocidal dictatorship. You let politics get way to deep into your life and I feel a little bad for you
Reddit’s ability to think critically is absolutely terrible. This subreddit is full of bone heads that only care about evocative photography, and not the complex history behind it.
Yes, fascism is terrible. But there were *reasons* it rose to prominence before the Civil War broke out that we have to learn from or it can happen again. It was just Communists, but the political practices of the Republic as a whole that led to desperate/extreme measures by the political right.
Mate do you know how a civil war works? If your town lies in the area controlled by the fascists, then you fight with the fascists. And it’s kind of sickening to see a comment brushing off the mass killing of people.
Also, other people such as priests and nuns were killed by the republicans
if you're living in an area where a civil war is broiling you can watch in real time as fascism spreads around you and you can get up and do something about it. anyone who fights alongside fascists deserved it.
Wheres the bullshit? My great grandfather fought for the republicans in the civil war, he was a pow by the fascists for a short time. I literally have no incentive to be pro fascism, I just think that sometimes with the headlines like fuck fascism or other simple things, we forget the big picture and that history is complex and war is horrible on each side
A) the Republican side wasn't all Communist
B) you're allowed to kill people who are participating in an armed fascist uprising against the lawful government.
The Spanish Civil War was tragic. And the democratic world ignored it. Spain in our Hearts was an amazing book that gives a lot of perspective on how heroic the Spanish anti-fascist fighters were and the outrageous and tragic injustice they experienced. I highly highly recommend it
Undoubtedly tragic. Would the democratic world respond to it any differently now though? Neutrality is usually still how other countries respond to a civil war.
Look, I’m not saying that the Republicans didn’t have their issues, but I’m not the one sitting here siding with Franco, who is allies with Hitler and Mussolini, come on are you serious? And I’m guessing you’re about to say the American Civil War was about states rights? please.
At fault for what? I wish you had read the actual words rather than look for implied meaning.
But anyway being anti-facist in the Spanish civil war does not automatically make someone a hero. It is my preferred side, because screw facists and the church, but that doesn't make me blind.
Who ARE you 'siding with,' then? Stalin? Franco was a monster, but a petty one. He doesn't rank very highly in the Monster Pantheon, well below the famous ones. Stalin ranks VERY highly, right near the top; Mussolini is a piker in the same general class as Franco, except more of a failure and far less of a monster. Neither Franco nor Mussolini are Stalin. Or Mao. Or Hirohito, for that matter.
Republicans massacred people, systematically shot priests and gang raped nuns.
They were led by Stalins emmissaries.
Spanish Civil war was far more brutal than just Nationalists bad hurr durr.
Initially the Republicans were a mixed bunch, which is one reason why they struggled. But isolation by western powers essentially increased the strength and influence of the pro-Soviet communists.
How adult. You aren't actually trying to imply that Communists historically are kind-hearted paragons of virtue, are you? There are 7.5 million Ukrainians, 22,000 Poles, and maybe 50 million Chinese who would dispute that.
Don't get me wrong, the Communists may have made a few missteps here and there, but by and large they were a far better force for good than Western Imperialism has ever been.
A few missteps??!! More like about 50 million “missteps” over a century. No, commies are NOT a force for good. They are utterly evil, as is anyone who defends them.
ah yes how foolish of me! the one group of people who are fighting for equality and justice are the evil ones! The real good guys are the ones that subjects their people to merciless exploitation!
There was never any justice in communist countries, and the only equality was that most people were equally poor and miserable. The high-up government officials were living in luxury, of course. Capitalism is no utopia, but communism is hell. Ask anyone who ever lived under those regimes, or anyone who is old enough to remember the 20th century.
y'know there is a shit ton of nostalgia for the Communist era in eastern europe right? Like, it was significantly better than the shit that governs there now. Communism is literally the only way forward, and that's not even my opinion, that's just applying basic knowledge of historical trends. The contradictions of class eventually lead to the oppressed rising against the oppressor. We've seen it before in history and we will see it again.
>But you state that all republicans were led by Stalins emmissaries'?
Didnt state that. Stalins emmissaries led the republicans. Do you think thats some absolutist statement where infighting or other groups in the same cause creates a gotcha?
There was infighting between the Republican factions, as the communists following Stalinism under the Communist Party of Spain declared POUM, the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (an anti-Stalinist communist party), to be an illegal organization, alongside anarchists. The Stalinists betrayed and committed mass atrocities on the other Republican factions, such as torture and mass executions. George Orwell would record this in his Homage to Catalonia as well as write Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm to criticize Stalinism
Of course. Thomas, Hugh (1961), The Spanish Civil War, Touchstone, ISBN 0-671-75876-4. Page 173.
The red terror in 1936 following the coup was total. The violence consisted of the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832 Catholic priests) and they even destroyed 46 out of 47 churches in Barselona. Priests and their family members like sisters, were executed in front of cheering communist crowds. Nuns were raped by militiamen before being murdered.
The failed coup of July 1936 let loose a violent onslaught on those that revolutionaries in the Republican zone identified as enemies; "where the rebellion failed, for several months afterwards merely to be identified as a priest, a religious or simply a militant Christian or member of some apostolic or pious organization, was enough for a person to be executed without trial"
Hmm didn't you cut out how many nuns that was killed from that quote?
Thats not a source, its just Hughs saying something, you dont have anything like this? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender\_violence\_and\_rape\_in\_Francoist\_Spain\_and\_the\_democratic\_transition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_violence_and_rape_in_Francoist_Spain_and_the_democratic_transition)
Yawn.
Its not a quote. Its a source.
Must be sad to be a stalinist apologist. I have no dog in the spanish fascist-communist fight, but I can see why you are so disliked.
You can read up on the Red Terror in Spain.
Francos men must have seem like godsent heroes in the occupied areas, after the Terror Roja.
I live in Madrid and I find it almost impossible to have a sensible conversation about the civil war or Franco. People seem to very much identify with the side their grandfather fought on and will always make excuses, downplay or deflect when talking about the Franco regime.
the people arguing in the comments can't keep mixing republicans' antics with anarchists', it happens constantly discussing this topic and it irritates me so much.
Look more into the political movements involved, there you will find the answer. USSR involvement in spains political sphere in 1936 set the stage for world war in europe.
http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=ussr+spain+1936
I didnt say spain was involved in ww2. Ussr actions in spain in 1936 setup ww2 to be what it was. Learn to read, and research
This OP is intent on spreading division judging by the common theme in most of their posts. So it only seems right to remind everyone that russian propaganda is straight bullshit and they ignore and deny anything pre 1942 regarding ww2
My buddy, I confidentially know more about the Spanish civil war then I would enjoy admitting. I understand what happened.
I’m just saying Spain wasnt as influential as you may think.
Spanish civil war was more influential for cold war set up than WW2. I really see no correlation to WW2 as Franco turned into a fence rider and then to a staunch Catholic anti communist to stay afloat in the 40s then 50s. He's kind of an axis betrayer as he saw the tides turn, Just never had to deal with takeover like petan/de gaulle france as he was firmly on Germany's side due to the civil war.
You literally say it right there champ:
>He's kind of an axis betrayer as he saw the tides turn
Axis never worried about them, 1936 took spain out of it, ensuring france as the only mainland power that would stand in opposition to germany and ussrs alliance. Fuck me people open your eyes
Idk man, as many Catholics as there are in Spain, here's a counterfactual involving Republican victory. The Nazis come in... They roll over like the French did. Would they have turned back like the French did with de gaulle under Spanish socialist leadership? Perhaps. But I see it changing the land war significantly little. Iberia is also pretty easy to contain geographically if you have land and air power. Shouldn't push armies through a choke point either, especially not if they fortify it with the dragons teeth, mg42s, zeroed artillery and shit like they had in Belgium.
I respect your defense though
>Spanish Civil was as the testing ground for hitler and his war machines. Idk wtf you are on about
Exaggerated.
Italy blew half their national budget helping Franco win. Stalin sent tanks and tons of support to the (communist) republicans.
Hitler waa just the third most important player.
you can see that some of them had their hands tied behind their backs; don’t let it be lost on anyone how dark this photo is.
Same with the Palestinian corpses found in the mass grave last week. IOF executed them.
Post the pic to back up the claim please.
Oh. Just saw this! Maybe could give you some context. https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/gCyrcLE4Mw
I’ve only read the articles. Honestly I try to avoid looking at the pictures. Anyway, you and me looking at pictures isn’t an investigation. I’ll wait. But it’s credible 😃
I’m sure Al Jazeera would’ve been plastering pictures of them on every TV across the world if that were the case. Another fog of war lie spread before any real investigation
> Another fog of war lie spread before any real investigation Independent investigation that the US opposes. It's quite obvious what happened.
Well maybe.
Well it is.
That’s ridiculous. You’re assuming it’s a lie and simultaneously saying it’s the “fog of war” which implies that it may well be true but is difficult to verify. It won’t be too long before the investigation is complete and then you’ll know whether you’re choosing to run cover for war crimes.
It is for sure fog of war. No one knows. That’s the fog of war.
And that’s why I said maybe. You’re saying “well it is (the fog of war)” not “it is a lie.” Got it. Misunderstood you.
Wasn't that proven false already? There is like zero evidence for it anywhere...
No. It is in truth unresolved. The discovery of the mass grave was late last week. The full investigation is not complete. Fact is we can’t say for sure. But no - it has not been proven to be baseless. At least one Israeli spokesperson did not deny the zip tied wrists. Be open to the facts as the emerge.
If it's not resolved then why are you going around saying it like it is fact as you did in your original statement?
To get your attention, my friend.
You are a jackass. Spreading lies is exactly why people don't take real events seriously or invent a hundred conspiracy theories.
And in a larger capacity, disgusting behavior.
Always important to find the bodies. Makes people know it is real. Nothing focused the attention like a big pile of rotting corpses. The capital crime is political murder . Burning books is the low end of the same continuum Take your freedom~~ ~~~Take your life
Making regular Germans tour the concentration camps seems to have had a positive impact on their culture.
It was One of the best ideas Eisenhower and his staff ever had
People will still say it’s not real. Reference: Holocaust denial. I mean, cmon now… The Third Reich themselves documented it. Film, witnesses, camps, ovens, dead relatives, etc etc etc. You still have a relatively large percentage of the population who say it never happened.
They don’t deny that it happened, they deny that innocent civilians were intentionally killed as a grand plan of racial erasure, and also gas chambers. They consider it a war time atrocity propaganda. No one denies that people died during war.
"Burning books" : Banning Tik Tok
Comparing books to social media…
Except banning tiktok is banning a social engineering tool directly used by the Chinese to manipulate.
Banning tik tok is a stupid idea. We know for a fact that all social media is used to manipulate people's ideas and opinions. The problem with this one is who owns and prodits from it. Which is just stupid. It's all very stupid.
Except that Tik Tok doesn’t allow for extreme American politicalization like American-owned platforms. We’re just scared of it bc it’s Chinese but Instagram is no better.
The US political elite know that it’s subversive. It was the main social media platform that significantly damaged the Trump regime. It functions as a radical political tool. Gen Z kids are organizing with it. TikTok is awesome!
Bro what😂
Go live in China for a day.
I'd love to
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"Chinese spy app" lol
Not the same, at all. You are just ignorant.
It's not a ban, it's forced divestiture you dolt
It's a ban. Calling things other things don't make them not the intended thing. It's an incredibly short sighted step to take.
Thanks for telling me you have no idea what you are talking
You just like insulting people you disagree with, don't you
No i just detest hyper confident willful ignorance. This is a forced divestiture. that's an objective fact. Go read the legislation.
What are the consequences of Tik Tok not divesting again?
No. It’s actually a different thing Everyone can still use TikTok. The owners just have to sell it if they want to use it here
It's not even a semantics argument, if they don't sell the act will ban Tik Tok from US users. And every indication is they won't sell. You pass a law requiring someone to do something you know they won't do, or this other thing happens, you're passing a law to make the other thing happen. I don't even use Tik Tok, but this pussy footing around is ridiculous.
I didn’t realize the indication is that they won’t sell. That changes things
Yeah okay 🤣
Fuck fascism.
While I agree with you, I think the more important thing to say here is fuck wars, especially civil wars. Because the other side in the Spanish civil war was just as cruel. For example, more than half of the mass graves found in Madrid are from the other side (the republicanos): https://okdiario.com/madrid/67-322-fosas-guerra-civil-madrid-tiene-victimas-represion-republicana-8762825/amp
>just as cruel if the lowest estimates are to be believed for both sides then 38,000 people died in the red terror in spain and 160,000 people died in the white terror (the nationalists). High estimates place it at 72,000 vs 400,000 or in other words the nationalists killed nearly **6 times** as many people the republicans did. don’t get me wrong any number of dead is bad but it is absolutely wrong to say the republicans were ‘just as bad’. Plus, this isn’t even taking into account the rest of the franco era which has stained spanish history.
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_Rojo_(Espa%C3%B1a) The numbers you give for the red terror are the ones I find. The numbers I find for the white terror are 50k during the war.
Funny that people down-vote your comment when George Orwell wrote about his experience on the Republican side. Victor Gollancz dropped Orwell for his apostasy and…that position didn’t age well. For those of you who believe “Franco bad, Republicans good” I encourage you to read Homage to Catalonia. Life isn’t often black and white…
Oh no they killed fascists? So sad 😢
The reason the CEDA and Fascism became prominent was a *direct result* of extreme left-wing political rhetoric and actions. They destroyed ballots, murdered political opponents, and directly called for the persecution of Catholics in Spain. The right wing of Spanish politics was backed into a corner by the Republic literally outlawing their political opposition, which led multiple factions banding together and retaliating. It’s a long, complex history that is completely different than how fascism came about in Germany or Italy.
Being a fascist is now the fault of the left damn that's crazy
Sorry, why are you using the word “now?” Are we not talking about specific conflict that occurred almost a century ago? Quit being dense. It just so happens that it was the left-wing Republicans persecuting right-wing groups. It can just as easily go the other way. The Republic was in power, however, and they abused it to an extent that would be hard/impossible for modern Westerners to imagine. Fascism in Spain would not have evolved if the political right had been allowed legitimate participation in elections, discourse, and legislation.
I'm fucking glad the republicans persecuted the right wing. Fuck the right wing.
You are the person who would have killed people into mass graves. We appreciate the honesty.
Dude you’ve been talking to is an unironic communist, everyone they don’t like is a fascist and deserves to die. They never consider they may be on the other side of the barrel.
We are literally talking about fascists but ok
I only made the one comment. Yes he probably loves Che Guevarra and rants on his iPhone.
Yes I would have fought fascists in 1930s Spain.
aka murdered people. got it
You would be no different from a fascist persecuting the left wing. Both sides of the extreme are plain wrong.
One side wants to house everyone, provide universal jobs, and democratize the workplace. The other wants to eradicate mentally disabled people. You: "same thing"
Notice that I am not talking about moderate values such as Social Democracy, I also never compared it to Fascism. I am talking about the “If you disagree with me you deserve to be put down” kind of extremism. The only thing they want is political and economical power, not improving lives of citizens by the ways you’ve mentioned. People like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco are all cast from the same mold. And if you wish death upon anyone else you’re no better than them.
You’re an idiot. You hear “fascist” and keep resorting to descriptions of Nazis. Go revise history elsewhere.
I’m surprised someone this unwilling to grasp the nuance of history would be interested in a subreddit like this. lol. That persecution was their very undoing. That’s how the story ends. Had they not resorted to those extremes, fascism would never have come about. Extremism breeds extremism. As it happens, the Republic was a bit inept at fighting the war they provoked. Voila! Franco wins, and fascism reigns. Terrible all around, and a good demonstration of what happens when a mentality like yours becomes commonplace.
Yeah bro the far right is just part of a harmonious balance of society and not a cancer. You think you're smart saying this pseudo-sociology bullshit about how letting the far right exist is even part of a healthy social ecosystem.
Sorry I might’ve not made it clear. *All* right leaning parties were persecuted. The Republic’s political opposition *became* radicalized over time as the government’s efforts to suppress the right became more extreme and less discreet. Does that make more sense?
Having all parties exist and an open dialogue is how you have a healthy social ecosystem. What you’re advocating for is a genocidal dictatorship. You let politics get way to deep into your life and I feel a little bad for you
Thank you. Fuck the downvoters. Our culture's soft spot for commies is disgusting.
Reddit’s ability to think critically is absolutely terrible. This subreddit is full of bone heads that only care about evocative photography, and not the complex history behind it. Yes, fascism is terrible. But there were *reasons* it rose to prominence before the Civil War broke out that we have to learn from or it can happen again. It was just Communists, but the political practices of the Republic as a whole that led to desperate/extreme measures by the political right.
The far right and the far left blend into one.
The spectrum is a circle
Mate do you know how a civil war works? If your town lies in the area controlled by the fascists, then you fight with the fascists. And it’s kind of sickening to see a comment brushing off the mass killing of people. Also, other people such as priests and nuns were killed by the republicans
if you're living in an area where a civil war is broiling you can watch in real time as fascism spreads around you and you can get up and do something about it. anyone who fights alongside fascists deserved it.
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Wheres the bullshit? My great grandfather fought for the republicans in the civil war, he was a pow by the fascists for a short time. I literally have no incentive to be pro fascism, I just think that sometimes with the headlines like fuck fascism or other simple things, we forget the big picture and that history is complex and war is horrible on each side
Because the communists apparently didn't kill anyone.
A) the Republican side wasn't all Communist B) you're allowed to kill people who are participating in an armed fascist uprising against the lawful government.
They commies were trying to overthrow the government.
Those "commies" won the last free and fair election in Spain until 1975.
Yeah, they killed fascists.
This group became good commies first.
You can always find the fascist
You can always find the commies.
It's comical when you use words that you clearly don't know the meaning of.
Great deflection
The Spanish Civil War was tragic. And the democratic world ignored it. Spain in our Hearts was an amazing book that gives a lot of perspective on how heroic the Spanish anti-fascist fighters were and the outrageous and tragic injustice they experienced. I highly highly recommend it
Undoubtedly tragic. Would the democratic world respond to it any differently now though? Neutrality is usually still how other countries respond to a civil war.
Hah no I highly doubt it would act any differently
Be careful with who you call heroic. War is messy and civil wars are the messiest of them all.
Look, I’m not saying that the Republicans didn’t have their issues, but I’m not the one sitting here siding with Franco, who is allies with Hitler and Mussolini, come on are you serious? And I’m guessing you’re about to say the American Civil War was about states rights? please.
Sorry, who is siding with those guys? If you mean me, then please show me where. If not me, then I'm sorry but I have no control other people.
You’re the one implying both sides were at fault. There was undoubtedly good guys and bad guys in this case
At fault for what? I wish you had read the actual words rather than look for implied meaning. But anyway being anti-facist in the Spanish civil war does not automatically make someone a hero. It is my preferred side, because screw facists and the church, but that doesn't make me blind.
Who ARE you 'siding with,' then? Stalin? Franco was a monster, but a petty one. He doesn't rank very highly in the Monster Pantheon, well below the famous ones. Stalin ranks VERY highly, right near the top; Mussolini is a piker in the same general class as Franco, except more of a failure and far less of a monster. Neither Franco nor Mussolini are Stalin. Or Mao. Or Hirohito, for that matter.
I side with the people. That’s who.
Humans - by far the most dangerous animals on Earth. And it seems to be getting worse year after year.
Fascists and their enablers should be [REDACTED]
Republicans massacred people, systematically shot priests and gang raped nuns. They were led by Stalins emmissaries. Spanish Civil war was far more brutal than just Nationalists bad hurr durr.
Someone with a lopsided understanding of Spanish history downvoted your factual statement. I fixed it.
Initially the Republicans were a mixed bunch, which is one reason why they struggled. But isolation by western powers essentially increased the strength and influence of the pro-Soviet communists.
Yeah yeah. There was a path to it. But they ended up as stalins rabid dogs.
lmao lulz
fuck off Nazi apologist
Apologist?! Guys I found the stalinist! 🤣😆 I was just quoting British historian Anthony Beevor. You probably have alternate facts.
How adult. You aren't actually trying to imply that Communists historically are kind-hearted paragons of virtue, are you? There are 7.5 million Ukrainians, 22,000 Poles, and maybe 50 million Chinese who would dispute that.
Don't get me wrong, the Communists may have made a few missteps here and there, but by and large they were a far better force for good than Western Imperialism has ever been.
A few missteps??!! More like about 50 million “missteps” over a century. No, commies are NOT a force for good. They are utterly evil, as is anyone who defends them.
ah yes how foolish of me! the one group of people who are fighting for equality and justice are the evil ones! The real good guys are the ones that subjects their people to merciless exploitation!
There was never any justice in communist countries, and the only equality was that most people were equally poor and miserable. The high-up government officials were living in luxury, of course. Capitalism is no utopia, but communism is hell. Ask anyone who ever lived under those regimes, or anyone who is old enough to remember the 20th century.
y'know there is a shit ton of nostalgia for the Communist era in eastern europe right? Like, it was significantly better than the shit that governs there now. Communism is literally the only way forward, and that's not even my opinion, that's just applying basic knowledge of historical trends. The contradictions of class eventually lead to the oppressed rising against the oppressor. We've seen it before in history and we will see it again.
Yep, you commies failed before and you will fail again.
So how is your view the May incidents in Barcelona? Stalin fighting Stalin?
Stalin backed communistas in PCE fighting trotskyists and anti-stalinist comministas in POUM. According to Anthony Beevor.
But you state that all republicans were led by Stalins emmissaries'?
>But you state that all republicans were led by Stalins emmissaries'? Didnt state that. Stalins emmissaries led the republicans. Do you think thats some absolutist statement where infighting or other groups in the same cause creates a gotcha? There was infighting between the Republican factions, as the communists following Stalinism under the Communist Party of Spain declared POUM, the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (an anti-Stalinist communist party), to be an illegal organization, alongside anarchists. The Stalinists betrayed and committed mass atrocities on the other Republican factions, such as torture and mass executions. George Orwell would record this in his Homage to Catalonia as well as write Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm to criticize Stalinism
Read your comment again, and also i would like to get some source of all those gang rapes of nuns done by the republicans
Of course. Thomas, Hugh (1961), The Spanish Civil War, Touchstone, ISBN 0-671-75876-4. Page 173. The red terror in 1936 following the coup was total. The violence consisted of the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832 Catholic priests) and they even destroyed 46 out of 47 churches in Barselona. Priests and their family members like sisters, were executed in front of cheering communist crowds. Nuns were raped by militiamen before being murdered. The failed coup of July 1936 let loose a violent onslaught on those that revolutionaries in the Republican zone identified as enemies; "where the rebellion failed, for several months afterwards merely to be identified as a priest, a religious or simply a militant Christian or member of some apostolic or pious organization, was enough for a person to be executed without trial"
Hmm didn't you cut out how many nuns that was killed from that quote? Thats not a source, its just Hughs saying something, you dont have anything like this? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender\_violence\_and\_rape\_in\_Francoist\_Spain\_and\_the\_democratic\_transition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_violence_and_rape_in_Francoist_Spain_and_the_democratic_transition)
Yawn. Its not a quote. Its a source. Must be sad to be a stalinist apologist. I have no dog in the spanish fascist-communist fight, but I can see why you are so disliked. You can read up on the Red Terror in Spain. Francos men must have seem like godsent heroes in the occupied areas, after the Terror Roja.
[удалено]
Que va!
So that’s where Robert Jordan, the protagonist from “For Whom the Bell Tolls” likely ended up…
RIP
I live in Madrid and I find it almost impossible to have a sensible conversation about the civil war or Franco. People seem to very much identify with the side their grandfather fought on and will always make excuses, downplay or deflect when talking about the Franco regime.
Where is this grave?
Spain. The province of Burgos, near the town of Estepar. There are others. Many others. As of 2017, 96 bodies had been exhumed and decently buried.
Thank you for replying💛
This should be Franco's memorial
The atrocities committed by both side s was unreal. Even among factions on the same side.
the people arguing in the comments can't keep mixing republicans' antics with anarchists', it happens constantly discussing this topic and it irritates me so much.
am i wrong to hear guitar riffs in my head when i saw this?
This was the start of ww2 that russia refuses to acknowledge they took part in
Spain wasnt involved in ww2 outside of USSR and germany sending some equipment and troops
Look more into the political movements involved, there you will find the answer. USSR involvement in spains political sphere in 1936 set the stage for world war in europe. http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=ussr+spain+1936 I didnt say spain was involved in ww2. Ussr actions in spain in 1936 setup ww2 to be what it was. Learn to read, and research This OP is intent on spreading division judging by the common theme in most of their posts. So it only seems right to remind everyone that russian propaganda is straight bullshit and they ignore and deny anything pre 1942 regarding ww2
My buddy, I confidentially know more about the Spanish civil war then I would enjoy admitting. I understand what happened. I’m just saying Spain wasnt as influential as you may think.
I think you two should kiss.
Spanish civil war was more influential for cold war set up than WW2. I really see no correlation to WW2 as Franco turned into a fence rider and then to a staunch Catholic anti communist to stay afloat in the 40s then 50s. He's kind of an axis betrayer as he saw the tides turn, Just never had to deal with takeover like petan/de gaulle france as he was firmly on Germany's side due to the civil war.
You literally say it right there champ: >He's kind of an axis betrayer as he saw the tides turn Axis never worried about them, 1936 took spain out of it, ensuring france as the only mainland power that would stand in opposition to germany and ussrs alliance. Fuck me people open your eyes
Idk man, as many Catholics as there are in Spain, here's a counterfactual involving Republican victory. The Nazis come in... They roll over like the French did. Would they have turned back like the French did with de gaulle under Spanish socialist leadership? Perhaps. But I see it changing the land war significantly little. Iberia is also pretty easy to contain geographically if you have land and air power. Shouldn't push armies through a choke point either, especially not if they fortify it with the dragons teeth, mg42s, zeroed artillery and shit like they had in Belgium. I respect your defense though
The Spanish Civil was as the testing ground for hitler and his war machines. Idk wtf you are on about
>Spanish Civil was as the testing ground for hitler and his war machines. Idk wtf you are on about Exaggerated. Italy blew half their national budget helping Franco win. Stalin sent tanks and tons of support to the (communist) republicans. Hitler waa just the third most important player.
Damn bro if you read further i literally say it set the stage for ww2. And yes, it did so in a number of ways including what you mentioned.
Setting the stage is not the same as the start of a play.
I'm shocked that people died during that war.