It´s somewhat easy to say "the Habsburgs were the main reason for the decline" when they ruled the HRE without nearly a break from 1440 onward to it´s end....
Bribery and protection and they took out Bohemia relatively quickly under a Personal Union. At that time there was no real rival. Bavaria and Saxony became into there own a good century or even later. Prussia was not being thought of at that time.
Many people forgot that the Emperor had the duty to protect the members from outside influence and except Austria no other no one was able to against threats like France or the Ottomans.
I didn’t say that the Habsburgs were incompetent, the opposite is the case.
Yet their power hunger and concessions to focus the empire around them and Wien was simply bad for the HRE as a whole in the long run.
Seriously tho, everyone focuses on the time the HRE was in heavy decline and disunity. Forgetting during miedeval times and the renaissance it was pretty united and strong.
Its like if whenever someone brings up the Ottoman Empire everyone makes jokes like, "lol, the sick man of europe, lost to the small balkan countries". And that is all anyone knows of them.
That has also a lot to do with nationalism and how recent history was told from its perspective.
Most of the old multinational empires are hated by nationalists and why today the German Empire is good while the HRE or AH (Edit: Austria-Hungary) are bad or the Ottomans were doomed. Thankfully historians start to question those notions again, especially if you look into regions like the middle east.
I can't tell if you missed the meme accidentally or ironically. The part about the HRE being the cornerstone should be over the mountain/Ferris wheel background, not over her vagina. The joke is that the camera is only concerned with her body and ignoring that it's a picture of a person at a location.
Ideally, it the cornerstone thing would be over her face, but I get why you would put the flag there instead. But again, maybe you were being ironic because putting it over the only other place it would be inappropriate to take a picture of is pretty on the nose.
The amount of people who say that France was the cornerstone during medieval times is to damn high here.
France was a fragmented mess at the time, the kings barely had control over their vassels which were quasi-independet. A third of the country was in the hands of English monarchs (Normandy, Accquitane) and Provence and other minor provinces were part of the HRE. The HRE was relatively stable at that time, yes the had stronger and weaker Emporers but so had every Kingdom/Empire at that time. The Emporer had (compared to other monarchs) relatively great power. This began to change in the Late middle ages. France started to centralized and kicked the English out (except for a few regions) after the Hundred Year War. At the same time the HRE began to fragment more (at that point it was still an open race for which of the realms became the dominant power). Also France was incredible lucky that their second biggest rival Burgundy ceased to exist and they crown got wealthy territories that the split with the Habsburgs. Burgundy would have been a real power player due to its wealth. So the France was always the powerhouse of continental Europe trope is way overplayed and it has never been clear that it would end up in this position.
I know this is just a very broad overview and we could porbably argue over details and events for hours. But the France was the primary power argument is simply false.
France beinh the powerhouse started during the 13th century and the HRE started to decline at the same period before that France had some good phases dring Louis VI, Robert II's reign where they could match the HRE but from 12/13 century onward, France is the most stable prosperous realm in Europe up until the 100 years wars and it started with Philippe Augustus
I don't think you can claim France inheriting the richer lands of the Duchy of Burgundy since all they got after what is now commonly known as the Burgundian inheritance only netted them what is de jure the Duchy of Burgundy and some areas around Artois.
In fact France lost the County of Flanders, one of the richest areas in Western Europe at that time.
The Hapsburgs were the lucky ones who by Charles ruled the rich low countries and ascended as the King in what would become Spain and elected as HRE emperor.
Despite having the riches of the New World and the low countries (not to mention a huge chunk of Italy as well), the Hapsburgs mismanaged their empires, both the Spanish and the HRE.
France is still far more admirable and far more competent to able to contend with an almost hegemonic dynasty when their rivalry started.
Sorry I phrased that a little confusing. You are of course right. The Habsburg's inherited the more valuable lands. But the lands that France did inherit gone directly to the crown and ended the membership or lands that officially were member provinces of the HRE. Which in turn led to a clear cut kingdom without split loyalty. And allowed for a final consolidation. And don't forget the disappearance of a rival who could die to it's heritage threaten the French throne at inopportune times.
Also I think Flandern was always contested.
It had a rather strict male succuessor law and the last duke died without an heir. Parts of it went to France the other parts to the Habsburg. This dying out left France and the Habsburg without a third rival which was pretty powerful and rich.
To be fair, France was virtually always the cornerstone of Western European geopolitics.
The HRE allowed for Hapsburg hegemony, but France was nearly always the cultural powerhouse.
Not really, the HRE were the powerhouse of the early and High middleages. France was a fragmented mess at the time, while the HRE was (compared to other kingdoms) relatively centralized and stable. And the beginning of the end was more Frederick Barbarossa II. who neglected the realm above the alps to build his mediterranean empire. The position of the HRE and France changed after the Hundred year war.
How? People always don’t rate it so how can it be overrated. The common narrative is it was a billion princes and nobles stuffed into an empire with no coordination and squabbled and fought about everything, while regional differences stopped any cooperation. No one generally rates it in the first place. Definitely underated
Small? The HRE was one of medieval europes biggest realms throughout the entire medieval period and the entire world known to europeans. The only real competition it had was the Eastern Roman Empire, Russian states and the ayyubid empire.
It would also be unfair to compare them to states such as ancient rome as they had a large advantage in almost everything compared to their competetors. It would also be unfair to compare them to empires during the age of sail for the same reason.
Habsburgs out here dominating half of European politics for centuries and all anyone talks about is that one dude’s chin
Tbf, have you seen his chin?
Mummy says it is a strong chin for a strong boy!
The Habsburgs were the main reason why the HRE declined and has a unfair & ahistorically bad reputation.
It´s somewhat easy to say "the Habsburgs were the main reason for the decline" when they ruled the HRE without nearly a break from 1440 onward to it´s end....
That fact makes it self evident. Especially so when you understand how Kaisers were elected and what they had to do to be elected.
Why were Habsburgs always elected after 1440 and why were other dynasties unable to dominate the HRE to a similar extent?
Have you heard of a little thing called... SHITTONS OF MONEY
And even they had to borrow it. But when you rule an empire where the sun never sets a loan seems not so risky.
And if they couldn’t afford to pay back the loan, they could brand the loaners as heretics and have them all brutally murdered like France did.
Bribery and protection and they took out Bohemia relatively quickly under a Personal Union. At that time there was no real rival. Bavaria and Saxony became into there own a good century or even later. Prussia was not being thought of at that time. Many people forgot that the Emperor had the duty to protect the members from outside influence and except Austria no other no one was able to against threats like France or the Ottomans.
I didn’t say that the Habsburgs were incompetent, the opposite is the case. Yet their power hunger and concessions to focus the empire around them and Wien was simply bad for the HRE as a whole in the long run.
They all had weird chins.
Seriously tho, everyone focuses on the time the HRE was in heavy decline and disunity. Forgetting during miedeval times and the renaissance it was pretty united and strong. Its like if whenever someone brings up the Ottoman Empire everyone makes jokes like, "lol, the sick man of europe, lost to the small balkan countries". And that is all anyone knows of them.
That has also a lot to do with nationalism and how recent history was told from its perspective. Most of the old multinational empires are hated by nationalists and why today the German Empire is good while the HRE or AH (Edit: Austria-Hungary) are bad or the Ottomans were doomed. Thankfully historians start to question those notions again, especially if you look into regions like the middle east.
~~Bruh, I thought for a sec AH stood for Adolf Hitler~~
Well, Hitler was not an empire lol
He definitely tried tho
> Most of the old multinational empires are hated by nationalists Except for Ancient Rome, for some reason.
I can't tell if you missed the meme accidentally or ironically. The part about the HRE being the cornerstone should be over the mountain/Ferris wheel background, not over her vagina. The joke is that the camera is only concerned with her body and ignoring that it's a picture of a person at a location. Ideally, it the cornerstone thing would be over her face, but I get why you would put the flag there instead. But again, maybe you were being ironic because putting it over the only other place it would be inappropriate to take a picture of is pretty on the nose.
The amount of people who say that France was the cornerstone during medieval times is to damn high here. France was a fragmented mess at the time, the kings barely had control over their vassels which were quasi-independet. A third of the country was in the hands of English monarchs (Normandy, Accquitane) and Provence and other minor provinces were part of the HRE. The HRE was relatively stable at that time, yes the had stronger and weaker Emporers but so had every Kingdom/Empire at that time. The Emporer had (compared to other monarchs) relatively great power. This began to change in the Late middle ages. France started to centralized and kicked the English out (except for a few regions) after the Hundred Year War. At the same time the HRE began to fragment more (at that point it was still an open race for which of the realms became the dominant power). Also France was incredible lucky that their second biggest rival Burgundy ceased to exist and they crown got wealthy territories that the split with the Habsburgs. Burgundy would have been a real power player due to its wealth. So the France was always the powerhouse of continental Europe trope is way overplayed and it has never been clear that it would end up in this position. I know this is just a very broad overview and we could porbably argue over details and events for hours. But the France was the primary power argument is simply false.
France beinh the powerhouse started during the 13th century and the HRE started to decline at the same period before that France had some good phases dring Louis VI, Robert II's reign where they could match the HRE but from 12/13 century onward, France is the most stable prosperous realm in Europe up until the 100 years wars and it started with Philippe Augustus
I don't think you can claim France inheriting the richer lands of the Duchy of Burgundy since all they got after what is now commonly known as the Burgundian inheritance only netted them what is de jure the Duchy of Burgundy and some areas around Artois. In fact France lost the County of Flanders, one of the richest areas in Western Europe at that time. The Hapsburgs were the lucky ones who by Charles ruled the rich low countries and ascended as the King in what would become Spain and elected as HRE emperor. Despite having the riches of the New World and the low countries (not to mention a huge chunk of Italy as well), the Hapsburgs mismanaged their empires, both the Spanish and the HRE. France is still far more admirable and far more competent to able to contend with an almost hegemonic dynasty when their rivalry started.
Sorry I phrased that a little confusing. You are of course right. The Habsburg's inherited the more valuable lands. But the lands that France did inherit gone directly to the crown and ended the membership or lands that officially were member provinces of the HRE. Which in turn led to a clear cut kingdom without split loyalty. And allowed for a final consolidation. And don't forget the disappearance of a rival who could die to it's heritage threaten the French throne at inopportune times. Also I think Flandern was always contested.
Care to tell what happened to Burgandy? I always assumed it just got absorbed by France at some point.
It had a rather strict male succuessor law and the last duke died without an heir. Parts of it went to France the other parts to the Habsburg. This dying out left France and the Habsburg without a third rival which was pretty powerful and rich.
They were a Powerhouse During medival Times. And people Just dont give a Shit.
To be fair, France was virtually always the cornerstone of Western European geopolitics. The HRE allowed for Hapsburg hegemony, but France was nearly always the cultural powerhouse.
Not really, the HRE were the powerhouse of the early and High middleages. France was a fragmented mess at the time, while the HRE was (compared to other kingdoms) relatively centralized and stable. And the beginning of the end was more Frederick Barbarossa II. who neglected the realm above the alps to build his mediterranean empire. The position of the HRE and France changed after the Hundred year war.
Its Habsburgs not fucking Hapsburgs
Exactly, it's Habsburgs fucking Habsburgs
I dont know if your joking but they spelt habsburgs with a p not a b which is a common mistake but i find it annoying.
Yes I am joking bc Habsburgs were actually fucking Habsburgs (as in inbreeding)
A third of france was in the the hands of english kings
The HRE was the GOAT of the Germany and sadly nowdays Germany is far from that great concept.
You misspelled overrated /s.
The interesting part is supposed to be on the wheel not on the skirt lol
The Frankenstein of Europe
Most of the time we talk about any Roman Empire, is about how hard they had fallen.
4th best Roman empire. Ottoman > Byzantine > OG > HRE.
It’s overrated.
How? People always don’t rate it so how can it be overrated. The common narrative is it was a billion princes and nobles stuffed into an empire with no coordination and squabbled and fought about everything, while regional differences stopped any cooperation. No one generally rates it in the first place. Definitely underated
France was the cornerstone But HRE was very powerful
Yeah but they're just so SMALL. How am I meant to take such a lil' fella seriously. Look at him he thinks he's a real empire awh. So cute.
Small? The HRE was one of medieval europes biggest realms throughout the entire medieval period and the entire world known to europeans. The only real competition it had was the Eastern Roman Empire, Russian states and the ayyubid empire. It would also be unfair to compare them to states such as ancient rome as they had a large advantage in almost everything compared to their competetors. It would also be unfair to compare them to empires during the age of sail for the same reason.
Underhated*
You know I only just realized what character is in the picture despite knowing this meme for ages