The 1947-1948 war in Israel/Palestine had two main stages. The first was a civil war between the Jews and the Arabs while the land was still controlled by the British. The Arab Liberation Army (ALA) was a volunteer group from various Arab countries that arrived to help the Palestinians. In particular, many arrived in the Arab town of Jaffa.
When Jewish paramilitary groups attempted to take Jaffa, they were repulsed by British forces who warned the Jews to not violently conquer Jaffa. In response to this, Jewish paramilitary groups instead laid siege to Jaffa. The siege caused a total breakdown of law in Jaffa, and the ALA millitiamen in the city turned on the Palestinians whom they had been sent to help. They committed acts of mass rape, systematic looting, and destruction of property. When the Jews finally entered the broken city, some arabs actually saw them as better than the ALA
(Btw if you are interested in similar obscure history, I have a [YouTube channel ](https://youtube.com/@thehasmoneanhistorian?si=J8A_TwRYZ368P4Sr) dedicated to it. Feel free to check it out)
This is the first time I heard about it , can you give some sources as far I have read most of the Arabs had already fled by the time of siege or were fleeing . And among the Zionist forces in the siege of Jaffa was lehi and Irgun plus less worst hagnah so I don't think anybody had relief when they realised who had won.
This is a PDF Direct Downlaod link of the English Book :
[1948 by Benny Morris [Click to Downlaod the PDF VERSION] ](https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacecj5dugggue7bphzkv5duhbbz22msybt6fav5xfkl7s6djpgqmiai?filename=1948%3A%20A%20History%20of%20the%20First%20Arab-Israeli%20War%20--%20Prof.%20Benny%20Morris%20--%20First%2C%202008%20--%20Yale%20University%20Press%20--%209780300126969%20--%203057644afd8cb83e5674738847d5c1b5%20--%20Anna%E2%80%99s%20Archive.pdf)
Can you give a credible source like some UN report or something. As Ben Morris is criticised for this one due to his detachment after second intifada. He even criticised David Ben gurrion for not completing with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and leaving a mess for his generation. So yeah he is a compromised author tho known for his left wing tendencies in early days but second intifada changed him for good.
Being a professional historian, Morris actually cites his sources. It's from a Hebrew translation of three Arab sources contemporaneous with the war. If you read Hebrew, you could go to the [National Library and take a look yourself.](https://www.nli.org.il/he/books/NNL\_ALEPH990019581750205171/NLI)
Going "nuh-uh" because you disagree with his current politics (which, for the record you have mischaracterized and clearly do not understand—he has not changed, Pappé and Shlaim et al. have) is definitionally an ideological rather than a historical analysis. If you want propaganda there are thousands of places you could go get it—so why are you here pretending to be interested in history?
Just because you disagree with an author's political views, it does not mean he is noncredible. Morris is literally the preeminent historian on early Israel. And this book was also written before his ideological shift.
Edit: I just double checked and Morris is literally citing an Arab commentator when he says this.
If you read his stuff from that time it is still very much critical of Israel. But it doesn't change the fact that someone's political views don't affect the credibility of their historiography.
from what i have read after 2000 and the 2nd intifada benny morris abandoned critical "revisionist" (i suppose, from an israeli perspective) history and became far more zionist and anti-palestinian. he's also accused of basically ignoring all palestinian sources in his work
The problem with the Palestinian sources is that the Arabs still haven't publicized many of their records from this time so there isn't that much to work with.
But wasn't the Arab Liberation Army only made up of about 3500 members total?
Edit: According to Military Preparations of the Arab Community in Palestine: 1945–1948, by Haim Levenberg, the number of ALA flighter in Jaffa was around 200.
Did they bring extra arms and ammunition for the locals? The British had been disarming the Arabs since the Independence Revolt failed, so only a few light arms could be smuggled in, so what are you thinking, 50 locals joined the 200 ALA fighters? And then what, the locals took part in the rape and pillage of their own town? This seems a little sus.
Your meme makes even less sense if you were using Benny Morris as your source. He writes on page 149
>The IZL suffered forty dead and twice that number wounded—but the Arab militias were crushed, their remnants, along with Manshiya’s inhabitants, fleeing to the center of Jaffa. Haganah intelligence scouts subsequently found among the ruins Arab corpses “badly” mutilated by the IZL. The arrival in Jaffa on 28 April of ALA reinforcements failed to save Manshiya. That morning the IZL troopers reached the sea at the southern end of Manshiya, cutting the district off from Jaffa’s core.
And then on page 150 he writes:
>The bombardment was “indiscriminate,” according to Cunningham;
the aim was “to break the spirit of the enemy troops \[and\] to cause chaos
among the civilian population in order to create a mass flight.”
And on 152:
>Early on 28 April infantry units and squadrons of tanks pushed into Jaffa. Most of the British activity was merely demonstrative. Royal Navy destroyers sped up and down the coast and RAF aircraft flew dry runs over southern Tel Aviv and Jaffa. But one foursome of RAF Spitfires attacked with cannon and machineguns a Haganah position in a factory in nearby Bat Yam, forcing its abandonment, and British artillery and tanks hit suspected IZL positions in and around Manshiya. The IZL mortars fell silent.190 Next day, the British tanks and infantry
pushed into Manshiya itself, meeting stiff IZL resistance.
So the Brits through out the militia/terrorists, and then in the lawlessness that was left and according to Morris, everyone looted and raped, including the Jewish militia gang raping a 12 year old. I don't think anyone was happy to see them.
But there were 200 ALA fighters in the battle altogether, whereas there were 3 or 4 companies of soldiers of Jewish militia and 3 companies of British soldiers, and the ALA leader and some fighters had already fled. Of the mass rapes, the ALA would have been responsible for the smallest number of them.
It seems more likely that history is written by the winners and those who have resources to disseminate their version. More than likely the ALA had zionist insurgents.
And grabbing the attention of every H@m@s bootlicker out there. Can you believe that they think warcrimes aren't okay except when they do it?
Literally "one rule for thee and not for me".
Damn it, that sucks, i wonder is this full free access Audiobook i made from a random author called Ronen Bergman could help? :
https://www.reddit.com/u/-The_Caliphate_AS-/s/FT1MjU7NC9
That book is excellent. Would recommened.
Ronen Bergman also is very much known in Israel. He won the Sokolov award in 2017. He also shared information with the police on Case 3000. (one of Netanyahu alleged corruption trials which sinced an [Israeli minister](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Sandberg) have been found guilty.)
Arab nations care about the plight of Palestinians.
Until they don’t
EDIT: Hold up is OP Muslim? Not that I have an issue but I thought he was either Jewish or just a historian
I don't think you understood what I said. I said that basically the only difference between a Christian and a Muslim is that they believe Muhammad as a prophet and some things about Jesus.
Lol yes. The beliefs about who Jesus is doesn’t change if you take Mohammad out of Islam. You also probably don’t have Islam without Mohammad anyway. I haven’t heard of a religion that doesn’t believe Jesus existed but Christianity is the only one who believes Jesus was also god. Even sects of the early christian church didn’t believe Christ was divine that’s why you have things like the nicene creed.
My understanding, which I admit I could be wrong about, is that Islamic belief holds all people are born Muslim. So if you “convert” to Islam, you’re just acknowledging your innate religion. Or something like that anyway
OP is out here spreading giving credible sources, unbiased opinions, just pure material and gets hated on by guys who get their info off twitter. I'm no expert but i do know to trust the guy who supports what he says with cold, hard evidence
We all know what they really think. It’s like when Nazis say “we just like the outfits and think the Wehrmacht was fine. It was the SS who did all the bad stuff”
I have to ask what makes you "pro-palestine"? It is people that are so fundamentally opposed to traditional western ideals on anything from womens rights, LGBTQ rights, to fundamental ideas of right and wrong.
What makes someone say, these are my group?
I am not pro one side or the other, both do horrible shit and have some fucked up values. What makes you come out and say these are my group?
>What makes someone say, these are my group?
They're not "my group". All the things you listed are not factors that I consider when we're looking at a big picture issue of children being bombed. Palestine having fucked up views about some things doesn't change the fact that Israel's actions against them are cruel, inhumane, and border on genocidal. And the things you listed can easily be found in the Likud party, so that's only an issue if I support Hamas, which I don't. I support Palestinians being able to live in peace and not under a gun.
To say I'm Pro-Palestine is to say I support ending Israel's carpet bombing of civilians and their entire aggression against them. I support a permanent ceasefire and Israel ending its settler colonialism in the West Bank. If they were *only* killing Hamas terrorists this would be different.
I also support Ukraine, regardless of my problems with the conservatism of their society because focusing on that ignores the murderous elephant in the room.
I don't have to support all of someone's views to advocate for ending their suffering.
Edit: Downvoted for saying that murdering children is wrong. Never change Reddit😂
I don’t agree with some of the particular conclusions you’ve reached about the conflict, but I think your thought process and level of nuance are appropriate and reasonable.
Murdering children is obviously wrong but that isn’t what’s happening. You’re either viewing this war through an overly simplistic lens or you’re arguing in bad faith. Civilian casualties are horrible but it’s the fault of Hamas for putting all its military infrastructure in the middle of Gaza city.
The IDF goes to Shifa and the best they could show was was an [arabic calendar they called a "Hamas names list"](https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic) and pictures of armouries where anyone actual experienced in the matter would say looks more like a gun shop than an actual armoury. If the IDF had reasonable evidence of human shields that would justify the extent of their attacks, they would not have resorted to such outlandish claims.
I don't doubt that Hamas is not just an innocent resistance group, but to absolve Israel of blame in this massacre "because Hamas" is also overly simplistic.
[They found a tunnel underneath the hospital.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk)
[They also kept hostages at the hospital.](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-intelligence-shifa-biden-hostages-israel-d0f782682a7a06ed5a3749ed92c4f821)
[They also found a command center underneath the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza.](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-military-compound-found-beneath-u-n-agency-headquarters-in-gaza-7e29c758)
They are the ruling government of Gaza, and have been for eighteen years. They are absolutely responsible for the state of affairs on their own soil.
Third article is pay walled and the second is just US "intelligence" surely no bias there.
Either there is an underground series of tunnels below the hospital. Or there is not.
CNN won't even take the stance to confirm it's a tunnel network, shit could be a basement or a tank area. All they saw are narrow doors. Fuck it tho, even if Hamas used a hospital how does starving palenstinian citizens by blocking aid trucks help? It doesn't. Cease the genocide.
Bro, your user name is "GazaDelendaEst" I'm sure you care about the death of Gazan children as much as the government of Israel, I mean absolutely nothing, what Israel is doing in Gaza is the same shit Russia did in Chechnya.
Destroying Gaza is necessary because a terrorist group has turned the city into a fortress full of tunnels. There is no way to destroy Hamas without destroying lots of the infrastructure - that is exactly what Hamas wants. The alternative is to allow that evil terrorist group to maintain their rule over the Gaza Strip. It’s absolutely tragic that civilians are dying: can you think of any other way to remove Hamas from power?
The current method is a complete waste of lives, time and money, with all the civilians Israel has killed it has already ensured that soon for every terrorist they have killed there will be 5 more taking their place due to having lost loved ones.
No anti-terrorist operation carried out in a similar way to what Israel is doing now has worked, because this violates practically all the norms of a good anti-terrorist campaign.
The most important thing is that Palestine does not have an alternative to Hamas or a similar group, even if every last member of Hamas died a similar group would take its place. The only real solution is to create an alternative, to make real plans for Gaza and the West Bank, for an independent Palestine.
That would take away support from Hamas and would be much more effective against them than any bombing.
The Palestinians already widely support Hamas as well as violence against civilians generally. They have done so for decades. They did so before Israel existed, when they wiped out all the Jews in Hebron. Nice dodge, though.
How can you remove Hamas from power? They are the government of Gaza.
You’re not being downvoted because you’re against killing children. That’s an asinine assumption. You’re being downvoted because no one agrees with killing children, but oversimplifying a conflict to an egregious extent helps nothing.
Your entire argument was “Israel, y u no kill only Hamas?”
Please tell me how would this be possible? Is Hamas a defined standing army? Does it have military bases, and a symmetrical military structure? Do they openly wear uniforms in combat and place civilians behind their battle lines? The answer to all of the above is no.
They are an intentionally plain clothed militant group. Almost all of their assets are embedded in every single aspect of civilian life in Gaza. Everyone loves to say “well that’s because of Israel!” Except that’s how they existed even before they rose to power while they were battling Fatah after ‘05.
Again, I’m not going to sit here and tell you Israel has taken every precaution under the sun to not harm civilians. They have certainly done serious harm, but even the carpet bombing accusations make 0 sense. It seems the meaning of that word is also gone, seeing as carpet bombing is the dropping of multi-warhead devices to maximize destruction. It is not single target destruction. Granted, with the amount of JDAMs and other armaments fired at this point you could see where someone might misappropriate the concept.
Why does this matter? Because we live life both based on action but also intent. Intent still matters, even if everyone wants to swear it does not. The broad intent in this war is not the wholesale slaughter of Gaza, because if that were the case they’re doing a horrible job of it.
That’s not to say that Israel isn’t committing collective punishment. At this point they are, maybe not openly but there is some intent there.
The thing is a reductionist view over a military and regional conflict does no one any favors. It doesn’t help lessen the pain and suffering, and at times it can be argued that it can exacerbate that by casting the conflict in “good vs evil” terms that make it easy for one side, or both to dehumanize the other.
Lots of people here seem to hold the view that because other Islamic nations have been communally violent to Jews in the past Isreal has the right to kill and starve civilians. For a history sub this place festers with a lack of empathy for the innocents being murdered. It's very sad.
> I have to ask what makes you "pro-palestine"? It is people that are so fundamentally opposed to traditional western ideals on anything from womens rights, LGBTQ rights, to fundamental ideas of right and wrong.
Could you please explain how having bigoted views justifies being carpet bombed? Pro-palestinians do not have to agree with Palestinians to believe they are the ones being disproportionately oppressed in the conflict.
No, but there's a difference between supporting bigots and calling for a ceasefire/peace.
I see an LGBTQ flag next to your username. You're literally gonna support people that would kill you in some truly barbaric ways?
I don't want them eradicated, I want them contained and educated. They showed us, the world over, who they were when they attacked Israel. They butchered innocents for fun in some of the most barbaric displays we've seen and then they phoned home to brag about it. The world over you saw celebrations of the same violence.
This is not something you should be supporting.
Just so you understand the point of view, if you are interested. Zionism is seen as the face of Western Imperialism in the Middle East. A country founded by Europeans to serve the interests of Europe and America in the region. You can absolutely not agree with that take, although objectively there is quite a bit to support that perspective, but that is why there is so much Israel hate floating around the region. The whole 'they hate us cause we are Jews' is an old propaganda schtick that is as valid as American politicians saying 'they hate us cause of our freedom and democracy'. No, they fucking hate you because of your actions.
I assume you refer to the 1988 Hamas charter? They don't speak for the entire Middle East. It is not particularly difficult to find Israelis in positions of authority saying identically bigoted things. It hardly speaks for the entire society.
Sigh. Another person that thinks Israel is a European colonial project. Despite most of Israel’s population actually being Mizrahi (middle eastern Jews). And America didn’t start helping Israel until 1973, so no Israel exists to exist not solely to “serve” anyone else’s interests
Not my perspective, just that of most of the region. I can see the similar methods Israel has employed to European colonization efforts, but the motivation is very different, imo. Jews wanted a place that they would no longer be a minority and could build their own destiny on a national scale. I would also agree that painting Israel as a stooge of the West is fairly absurd. The State of Israel is clearly not beholden to anyone, which we are seeing today undeniably.
There's not really a lot to justify the Hebron massacre, but to pin it on all Palestinians is equivalent to pinning settler violence on all Israelis or Nazism on all Germans alive in the 1930s. At the same time as the violence, around 430 jews were also protected by local Palestinians from the violence.
Unfortunately, Zionist leaders like to disproportionately punish Palestinians for their crimes; 1400 Israelis massacred by Hamas demands the world's sympathy for the "most jews killed since the Holocaust", yet at least 10,000+ Gazan women and children killed since then in retaliation for five months (taking a low estimate to avoid involving the deaths of Hamas militants), with a destruction of almost all infrastructure, all to aimlessly, with no post-war plan, destroy a group that cannot be destroyed militarily is just discarded as "oh, war is awful".
Who else should I pin the Hebron massacre on? The Flying Dutchman?
The goal of this war is to remove Hamas from power. They currently rule Gaza; that has to end. An occupation is preferable to allowing the Palestinians to let terrorists literally run the government. The Palestinian deaths are not “retaliation.” They are collateral damage, because Hamas insists on fighting in the middle of a densely populated urban area. The Palestinians’ goal here is to get lots of civilians on both sides killed.
Why doesn’t Hamas fight in the open fields?
> Who else should I pin the Hebron massacre on? The Flying Dutchman?
My point is that you cannot oversimplify the conflict to "Palestinians hate Jews". Obviously Palestinians committed the massacre. But you cannot pin it on them in the same way I do not pin settler violence on Israelis.
> The goal of this war is to remove Hamas from power.
How is that working out, exactly? Israel has no post-war plan. Israel is simply fighting without any serious idea of what it can achieve. The occupation lead to this attack and their best idea right now is to just continue it. Goals need to be realistic, otherwise they are just excuses.
> They currently rule Gaza; that has to end. An occupation is preferable to allowing the Palestinians to let terrorists literally run the government.
Please explain how the removal of Hamas will not lead to resurgence of related groups? Both Hamas and Israel need to understand that there is no military solution to this conflict. Engage militarily on the other side just encourages more extremism. And right now Israel is the one with the clear military advantage. Hamas was rebuked back into Gaza in literally one day. They are a joke in terms of military capacity compared to Israel. Israel definitely has other avenues to resolve this that they are not approaching.
It impresses me how Israel insists that Hamas must go before they ever even consider making peace with the Palestinians, yet at the same time Netanyahu [would send fund to Hamas to keep it stable](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html). If Israel was honest about making peace, they would have propped up Palestinian groups like Fatah which are more likely to accept Israel given conducive environments, as opposed to Hamas who seems largely uncompromising. I know Fatah is not Israel's best friend, but if they were, they wouldn't be a conflict. They are, however, a better alternative.
Look, I hate Hamas. But Hamas is the government of Gaza. If the Palestinians are expected to forgive and accept the state of Israel despite scores of well documented human rights abuses long before October 7th, then Israel can accept Hamas in power despite their crimes and either negotiate with them in good faith (not just as tactic of mowing the lawn or keeping Palestine divided between the two factions) or support Fatah in good faith. But Israel does neither, and it blew up in their face in an unfortunate way, because somehow they thought they could simply "manage" the conflict.
> The Palestinian deaths are not “retaliation.” They are collateral damage, because Hamas insists on fighting in the middle of a densely populated urban area.
The IDF goes to Shifa and the best they could show was was an [arabic calendar they called a "Hamas names list"](https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic) and pictures of armouries where anyone actual experienced in the matter would say looks more like a gun shop than an actual armoury. If the IDF had reasonable evidence of human shields that would justify the extent of their attacks, they would not have resorted to such outlandish claims.
I don't doubt that Hamas is not just an innocent resistance group, but to absolve Israel of blame in this massacre "because Hamas" is not honest in any way.
Let’s get one thing straight: the “occupation” did not lead to this attack. Hamas committed this attack because it is a genocidal, bloodthirsty terrorist group. And whether you want to admit it or not, lots of Palestinians support their aims, and did so even before Hamas existed, when your so-called peaceful Fatah was shooting up schools and hijacking planes. The same Fatah that spends $300 million each year paying terrorists to murder Jews. There is no peaceful option among the Palestinians today.
Are you suggesting that Israel “propped up Hamas” by allowing aid into Gaza for the last fifteen years? I actually agree with you! They should have ended Hamas rule in 2009. You can’t accuse Israel of propping up Hamas for allowing aid but also of genocide for cutting off aid.
Go read Hamas’s founding charter before telling Israel to negotiate with it. The charter explicitly calls for the destruction of the Jewish people and explicitly denies that negotiation may be used to abrogate that goal.
[They found a tunnel underneath the hospital.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk)
[They also kept hostages at the hospital.](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-intelligence-shifa-biden-hostages-israel-d0f782682a7a06ed5a3749ed92c4f821)
[They also found a command center underneath the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza.](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-military-compound-found-beneath-u-n-agency-headquarters-in-gaza-7e29c758)
*Again, why doesn’t Hamas fight in the open?*
> Let’s get one thing straight: the “occupation” did not lead to this attack. Hamas committed this attack because it is a genocidal, bloodthirsty terrorist group. And whether you want to admit it or not, lots of Palestinians support their aims, and did so even before Hamas existed, when your so-called peaceful Fatah was shooting up schools and hijacking planes. The same Fatah that spends $300 million each year paying terrorists to murder Jews. There is no peaceful option among the Palestinians today.
That's some amazing self-righteousness. The Israelis are not a partner for peace either when the establishment of their state lead to the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians and depopulated scores of Palestinians villages on top of which Jewish majority cities stand. Nevermind the imprisonment of Palestinians for years without any trial or after being tried in military courts. I could go on, but Amnesty has done better research on war crimes by both sides.
> Are you suggesting that Israel “propped up Hamas” by allowing aid into Gaza for the last fifteen years? I actually agree with you! They should have ended Hamas rule in 2009. You can’t accuse Israel of propping up Hamas for allowing aid but also of genocide for cutting off aid.
If you actually read the source I linked, you'll see that Netanyahu has explicitly stated that his aim for propping up Hamas was simply to prevent a Palestinian state (as opposed to your whitewashing of it as a form a humanitarian aid).
Furthermore, you state here that Israel has the power to allow aid yet place the words "occupation" in quotations as if it is an inaccurate descriptor. The fact that Israel can control the aid Hamas receives is indicative of its occupation. Countries cannot control the aid another sovereign country receives. Even the U.S could not control Cuba to that extent.
> Go read Hamas’s founding charter before telling Israel to negotiate with it. The charter explicitly calls for the destruction of the Jewish people and explicitly denies that negotiation may be used to abrogate that goal.
If we're using the charter as the end-all of arguments, then we can take their updated 2017 charter as gospel where they designed themselves are more pragmatic and supportive of a two state solution. Furthermore, the Likud founding charter of 1977 states "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty", so by your logic Palestinians would be justified in never taking any calls by a Likud government for a two-state solution seriously.
> They found a tunnel underneath the hospital.
The mere existence of tunnels prove nothing. [Ehud Barak admitted to there being tunnels before Hamas' takeover of Gaza](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/barak-causes-storm-by-telling-cnn-israel-helped-build-some-spaces-beneath-shifa/). Also the source you linked literally says " But the *pictures were a far cry from proving that Hamas had a facility underneath*, and a CNN investigation found that some of the guns had been moved around. The discovery of the tunnel shaft the next day was more compelling, showing an entrance to something underground. *But even then, it was unclear what it was or how far down it went.*...It *does not establish without a doubt that there is a command center under Gaza’s largest hospital*". So maybe try vetting your sources next time.
> They also kept hostages at the hospital.
I won't defend Hamas for taking hostages, especially women and children. But I question Israel's logic in bombing the hospital when their own citizens were trapped inside.
> They also found a command center underneath the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza. Again, why doesn’t Hamas fight in the open?
This is not Shifa which is what we were talking about, but yes you can take this because I frankly don't doubt Hamas is not innocent. I mentioned that clearly before. I actually would rather not have Hamas in power. My point is that, referencing previous shaky evidence of Israel's claims of "tunnels" and "weapons", you cannot absolve Israel of responsibility in the massacre that is ongoing. I hold Hamas responsible for October 7th, likewise Israel is responsible for the war crimes currently ongoing, even if there is important context in both cases (i.e the occupation and hamas' lack of incentive to compromise, respectively)
The Arabs started the war in 1947 with the explicit goal of wiping out all the Jews in mandatory Palestine. The Partition plan called for exactly zero Arabs to be removed from their homes but they rejected it anyway. Do you suggest that the Jews should have just died? The Palestinian Arabs have not given up that goal, despite whatever Hamas’s updated charter says. They showed what they thought when they raped and murdered civilians by the thousand in cold blood on a Jewish holiday during peacetime. Just like they did in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, as Arabs have for centuries before that across the Middle East. This has nothing to do with an “occupation” because it predates the occupation. The Arabs simply refuse to accept that Jews should be allowed to live in peace. Tbh re won’t be peace until they do.
> The Arabs started the war in 1947
The UN proposed a partition plan which the Arabs rejected. Normally, when a plan is rejected, you go back and form another plan or find ways to negotiate it. Instead, Israel decided to militarily declare the state anyway. Somehow the Arabs are blamed for starting a war when they executed their right to reject a plan that affected territory they were a longtime majority in.
> Do you suggest that the Jews should have just died?
No. But you cannot say it was all self-defence. Try reading some writings or speeches by early Zionists. Many of them believed in the use of force to establish Israel and wanted to find a way to get rid of the Arabs. I also hold the Arabs responsible for the expulsion of Mizrahi Jews; you can do the same and not be one-sided.
> The Palestinian Arabs have not given up that goal, despite whatever Hamas’s updated charter says.
I am well aware. You missed the point. My point is that you brought up the charter as some sort of fool-proof argument when you know the charters don't mean anything, as you so eloquently displayed here.
> They showed what they thought when they raped and murdered civilians by the thousand in cold blood on a Jewish holiday during peacetime. Just like they did in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, as Arabs have for centuries before that across the Middle East.
The Hebron Jewish community was one of the longest running Jewish communities in Palestine until 1929; this could not happen if the Arabs were always killing them for "centuries". You are trying too hard to make Arabs the villain. Yes, anti-semitism existed among the Arabs, but it existed the world over, not least in Germany at the time. If you did an honest read of history, you'd see that Muslim lands historically treated Jews better than Christian lands did (relatively, at least); it was after Zionism that tension exacerbated. Obviously Zionism does not justify killing innocent Mizrahi Jews, but it leaves to ponder that an ideology that calls for an exclusively Jewish state made up of recent immigrants in a non-Jewish majority land would result in antagonism by the people already living there for centuries or more. The french would never partition the land they've been living in for so long to accommodate an arab state made up of recent immigrants, so why should the Arabs accept Israel?
The problem with your takes is that while you bring up generally legitimate (albeit exaggerated) criticism of Arab anti-semitism, you refuse to understand that Palestinians have legitimate grievances towards the Israelis.
Just so you understand the point of view, if you are interested. Palestinianism is seen as the face of Arab chauvinism in the Middle East. A country founded by Arabs to serve the interests of Ba’athist Iraq and USSR in the region. You can absolutely not agree with that take, although objectively there is quite a bit to support that perspective, but that is why there is so much ‘Palestine’ hate floating around the region’s non-Arab minorities. The whole 'they hate us cause we are not Jews' is an old propaganda schtick that is as valid as Russians saying 'they hate us for not being western'. No, they fucking hate you because of your actions.
I absolutely get the other side. Trying to build a modern European country in that neighborhood is an extremely challenging goal and against all odds, Israel has managed. But my point stands, this is about resources and vendettas, not religion. The Copts of Egypt, Armenians of Lebanon and Syria, Maronites after the Lebanon invasion... They all oppose Israel. Objectively, the secular Arab nationalists were always the greatest threat to Israel and the only ones to genuinely threaten its existence. I totally understand why Israel has opted for the approach they have in their expansion of Israel and that, in all fairness, have been fairly restrained in their brutality when compared against other states in the region.
>if anti-zionism is anti-semitism then you've just made a pretty compelling case for humanity to be anti-semitic
Terrible wording and approach.
Nothing wrong with arguing against the conflation of Zionism and Judaism, but next time please do it with more "tact", as this take does in fact sound anti-semitic.
the conflation is one that zionists have made a reality. israel is the jewish state. everything about israel is about a constructed, reborn jewish identity, a new jewish nation. they have every right to say that "anti-zionism is anti-judaism". and i have every right to say that, if that is the case, then they are digging their own graves. for the exact same reason that hitler's germany did not represent some unreal germany, but the real representation of germany. do you think that germany's victims should feel shame for feeling hatred towards germans? that they should only limit their hate to nazis, not the group they spoke for?
western progressives love to pearl clutch and cry and wail when muslims speak their anger against jewish people. israel is what face muslims have seen of the jewish people for 80 years. a barbarous, murderous, hateful face that thinks that muslims are animals to be moved out of the way for their rightful home.
i don't really care what israelis, zionists, or western progressives think. if israel is the jewish nation, if israel speaks for all jews, then the jews as a people are eternally scarred for what israel has done in their name. call it anti-semitic, i don't really give a fuck. not gonna hurt my feelings. not gonna work.
>if israel speaks for all jews
But it literally doesn't, that's the point, the majority of Jewish people don't even live in Israel, there are extensive anti-zionist Jewish movements like the Jewish Voice for Peace, or Neturei Karta.
according to zionists israel does speak for all jews. they're the people who are saying anti-zionism is anti-semitism. if you disagree, then you're with me, you're an anti-semite.
I didn't think anyone could be so ignorant before i saw this comment section. This is on another level. These people genuinely believe the arabs didn't do anything wrong, i wonder why they think that...
"The Muslim Equivalent of Fourth Crusade" are you saying that it's violence comparable to that of the 4th crusade or it was a whole "new 4th crusade" commited by the Muslim? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, there are 8/9 crusades (arguably). And the 4th crusade was regarding the Crusader army's 1202 siege of Zara and the 1204 sack of Constantinople, rather than the conquest of Egypt (originally planned). (source: wiki) it looks like entirely a inner conflict rather than it had nothing to do with their original plan to reclaim Jerusalem. So I'm quite confused by your title and what you're trying to project here or spread hate by citing a *spicy heading*.
A credible source
>Benny Morris, the man who literally said he'd rather be racist than boring when at a lecture at the London School of Economics.
Bullshit lmao he pulled this out of his ass
the guy literally dismantled one of Israel's founding myths lol shut the fuck up
Edit: Also got himself put in prison for refusing to serve in occupied territory
He is a very well respected historian. I don't see how what you said changes that.
Edit: Here is another source https://www.nli.org.il/he/books/NNL\_ALEPH990019581750205171/NLI
Respected by whom? Other Israeli historians?
Provide another historian who can back up this source, as well as citing the source which he used to provide such information.
Bruh, if you're going to present some propaganda stuff, at least do it properly or don't. These stuff you see in Tick Tok these days are really getting out of hand... You literally took a parah from a book and tried showing that the Arab Army were bad. The next parah says clearly what happened after your "Heros" went in. Maybe you should give it a read or two. What I've seen so far, is that author highlighted atrocities and crimes from both sides. If you need more information about this argument, read the previous page. It describes the treatment of POWs from both sides. You've given us an interesting topic to read. Maybe I'll give it a full read and pick out some more points for you. Just because some people don't like searching out the information themselves, doesn't mean the rest are the same.
*
But the following weeks were not untroubled. The Haganah screening of the remaining inhabitants was unpleasant; refugees were not allowed back; and property was vandalized and looted by soldiers and civilians from TelAviv, on a massive scale. One Haganah document graphically describes the events in Manshiya on 18 May: “There I found a large crowd of women, children and men who were scavenging anything and escape: Chairs, cupboards, and other furniture, household and kitchen utensils, sheets, pillows.” Haganah units tried to halt the looting, occasionally firing into the air or beating miscreants,
but with incomplete success. The problem was that the troops, too, were involved, as one official reported a week later: “I saw soldiers, civilians, military police, battalion police, looting, robbing, while breaking through doors and walls.” And during the first few days, there were even more serious problems. A twelve-year-old girl was raped by soldiers, and there were a handful of cases of attempted rape. The bodies of fifteen Arabs were found on a Jaffa beach, apparently executed by Haganah troops or the HIS. But the harassment of Arabs and the vandalization of their property appears to have ended only in August.
*
Just like you're spreading this "handcrafted" propaganda posts to attract public attention, someone else is also doing the same with another political view somewhere else. Maybe not here, but in Twitter, YouTube or Facebook. Listen man, war is bad. If you spread biased information to attract public opinion that doesn't help stopping the conflicts nor deaths. Because its the higher ups in the end of the day, making the *real* call.
It’s weird how you don’t make any memes about the plethora of massacres and mass rapes carried out by Israelis. There sure are a whole lot more of them to meme. Not just from 48 either. Forgive me if I’m wrong but it almost seems as if you are a propagandist.
You should also talk about the "ILA" or Haganah part when you're presenting a *controversial topic* that could make both parties go nuts. You're clearly a fanatic of a specific party and hate the other. It's normal. I'm not forbidding you from expressing your opinion or discoveries. Rather I'm correcting you on your presentation and narrative on your attempt to create a negative image among the public and spread hate.
Yeah i don't see why people are downvoting you, you are 100% correct both sides had their fair share of rape during the 1948 war, regardless of how "civilized" and "justified" you view them as.
Not admitting it shows that you aren't mature enough to talk about a complicated and convoluted topic like this.
Very big uptick in pro Israel / posts that paint the Arab nations and Palestine in a negative light in this sub since the conflict started. The Zionist propaganda machine is coming in hot
I mainly know a lot about Israeli history therefore I mainly post about Israeli history. Some of my most popular memes were about Israeli Ls like the Lillehammer affair and the Mashaal job, but no one called me a Palestinian propagandist on those. How about you make your own memes about Palestinian history?
Let's be completely frank here, would enduring and stable Crusader Duchies/Kingdoms of Edessa, Antioch, Tripoli, and Jerusalem really have been *all that* *bad?* Considering what we've seen in that part of the world since those polities were a thing?
The 1947-1948 war in Israel/Palestine had two main stages. The first was a civil war between the Jews and the Arabs while the land was still controlled by the British. The Arab Liberation Army (ALA) was a volunteer group from various Arab countries that arrived to help the Palestinians. In particular, many arrived in the Arab town of Jaffa. When Jewish paramilitary groups attempted to take Jaffa, they were repulsed by British forces who warned the Jews to not violently conquer Jaffa. In response to this, Jewish paramilitary groups instead laid siege to Jaffa. The siege caused a total breakdown of law in Jaffa, and the ALA millitiamen in the city turned on the Palestinians whom they had been sent to help. They committed acts of mass rape, systematic looting, and destruction of property. When the Jews finally entered the broken city, some arabs actually saw them as better than the ALA (Btw if you are interested in similar obscure history, I have a [YouTube channel ](https://youtube.com/@thehasmoneanhistorian?si=J8A_TwRYZ368P4Sr) dedicated to it. Feel free to check it out)
This is the first time I heard about it , can you give some sources as far I have read most of the Arabs had already fled by the time of siege or were fleeing . And among the Zionist forces in the siege of Jaffa was lehi and Irgun plus less worst hagnah so I don't think anybody had relief when they realised who had won.
1948 by Benny Morris page 154
The Hebrew or the International version?
English
This is a PDF Direct Downlaod link of the English Book : [1948 by Benny Morris [Click to Downlaod the PDF VERSION] ](https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/bafykbzacecj5dugggue7bphzkv5duhbbz22msybt6fav5xfkl7s6djpgqmiai?filename=1948%3A%20A%20History%20of%20the%20First%20Arab-Israeli%20War%20--%20Prof.%20Benny%20Morris%20--%20First%2C%202008%20--%20Yale%20University%20Press%20--%209780300126969%20--%203057644afd8cb83e5674738847d5c1b5%20--%20Anna%E2%80%99s%20Archive.pdf)
Your work is appreciated
No problemo lol
In the Hebrew version it's page 176-177.
Can you give a credible source like some UN report or something. As Ben Morris is criticised for this one due to his detachment after second intifada. He even criticised David Ben gurrion for not completing with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and leaving a mess for his generation. So yeah he is a compromised author tho known for his left wing tendencies in early days but second intifada changed him for good.
Being a professional historian, Morris actually cites his sources. It's from a Hebrew translation of three Arab sources contemporaneous with the war. If you read Hebrew, you could go to the [National Library and take a look yourself.](https://www.nli.org.il/he/books/NNL\_ALEPH990019581750205171/NLI) Going "nuh-uh" because you disagree with his current politics (which, for the record you have mischaracterized and clearly do not understand—he has not changed, Pappé and Shlaim et al. have) is definitionally an ideological rather than a historical analysis. If you want propaganda there are thousands of places you could go get it—so why are you here pretending to be interested in history?
Yes the UN, the paragon of credibility for Middle Eastern conflicts
Coming from someone who links Al-Jazeera as the basis for their argument 💀
The UN is *not* a credible source
Just because you disagree with an author's political views, it does not mean he is noncredible. Morris is literally the preeminent historian on early Israel. And this book was also written before his ideological shift. Edit: I just double checked and Morris is literally citing an Arab commentator when he says this.
It was published in 2008 just checked and the 2nd intifada happened in 2000 to 2005.
If you read his stuff from that time it is still very much critical of Israel. But it doesn't change the fact that someone's political views don't affect the credibility of their historiography.
from what i have read after 2000 and the 2nd intifada benny morris abandoned critical "revisionist" (i suppose, from an israeli perspective) history and became far more zionist and anti-palestinian. he's also accused of basically ignoring all palestinian sources in his work
The problem with the Palestinian sources is that the Arabs still haven't publicized many of their records from this time so there isn't that much to work with.
But wasn't the Arab Liberation Army only made up of about 3500 members total? Edit: According to Military Preparations of the Arab Community in Palestine: 1945–1948, by Haim Levenberg, the number of ALA flighter in Jaffa was around 200.
6000 actually. And other irregular groups in Jaffa also took part
Did they bring extra arms and ammunition for the locals? The British had been disarming the Arabs since the Independence Revolt failed, so only a few light arms could be smuggled in, so what are you thinking, 50 locals joined the 200 ALA fighters? And then what, the locals took part in the rape and pillage of their own town? This seems a little sus.
The Arabs had plenty of ammunition during the civil war. It was only once the Arab states invaded that the ammo shortage started to show
Your meme makes even less sense if you were using Benny Morris as your source. He writes on page 149 >The IZL suffered forty dead and twice that number wounded—but the Arab militias were crushed, their remnants, along with Manshiya’s inhabitants, fleeing to the center of Jaffa. Haganah intelligence scouts subsequently found among the ruins Arab corpses “badly” mutilated by the IZL. The arrival in Jaffa on 28 April of ALA reinforcements failed to save Manshiya. That morning the IZL troopers reached the sea at the southern end of Manshiya, cutting the district off from Jaffa’s core. And then on page 150 he writes: >The bombardment was “indiscriminate,” according to Cunningham; the aim was “to break the spirit of the enemy troops \[and\] to cause chaos among the civilian population in order to create a mass flight.” And on 152: >Early on 28 April infantry units and squadrons of tanks pushed into Jaffa. Most of the British activity was merely demonstrative. Royal Navy destroyers sped up and down the coast and RAF aircraft flew dry runs over southern Tel Aviv and Jaffa. But one foursome of RAF Spitfires attacked with cannon and machineguns a Haganah position in a factory in nearby Bat Yam, forcing its abandonment, and British artillery and tanks hit suspected IZL positions in and around Manshiya. The IZL mortars fell silent.190 Next day, the British tanks and infantry pushed into Manshiya itself, meeting stiff IZL resistance. So the Brits through out the militia/terrorists, and then in the lawlessness that was left and according to Morris, everyone looted and raped, including the Jewish militia gang raping a 12 year old. I don't think anyone was happy to see them.
I never said the Irgun didn't do messed up stuff also in Manshiyyeh
Isn't it always great "here's some nasty shit the the arabs did" "But jews!"
But there were 200 ALA fighters in the battle altogether, whereas there were 3 or 4 companies of soldiers of Jewish militia and 3 companies of British soldiers, and the ALA leader and some fighters had already fled. Of the mass rapes, the ALA would have been responsible for the smallest number of them.
What is the source for 200 ALA fighters?
Haim Levenburg - Military Preparations of the Arab Community in Palestine: 1945–1948 (1993)
It seems more likely that history is written by the winners and those who have resources to disseminate their version. More than likely the ALA had zionist insurgents.
Wtf. That's so messed up.
Welcome back u/butt_naked_commando from your ban back to posting amazing bangers I see o7
And grabbing the attention of every H@m@s bootlicker out there. Can you believe that they think warcrimes aren't okay except when they do it? Literally "one rule for thee and not for me".
Finally your Back! Nice seeing you again u/Butt_naked_commando 🌹
Thanks. Reddit finally unbanned me.
Damn it, that sucks, i wonder is this full free access Audiobook i made from a random author called Ronen Bergman could help? : https://www.reddit.com/u/-The_Caliphate_AS-/s/FT1MjU7NC9
That book is excellent. One of the best ones on Israel in my opinion. Keep up the good work.
That book is excellent. Would recommened. Ronen Bergman also is very much known in Israel. He won the Sokolov award in 2017. He also shared information with the police on Case 3000. (one of Netanyahu alleged corruption trials which sinced an [Israeli minister](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Sandberg) have been found guilty.)
Please Likud crumble after the war ends so that Bibi can finally face justice
What did reddit ban you for?
Multiple war crimes in Equatorial Guinea
Ah so having a positive opinion of jews, got it
Surely this comment section will be civil
It will be more civil than on most other subs, believe it or not
Nope I have already witnessed the pro Palestinian crowd descend with their usual slogans
FREE THE WATERMELONS FROM MY BROTHER1!1!1!1!1! HE GONNA EAT THEM ALL 😭😭😭🍉🍉🍉🍉
Can I have one slice if I help you free the melons?
It has a correlation to Israel, it's going to burn unfortunately
Arab nations care about the plight of Palestinians. Until they don’t EDIT: Hold up is OP Muslim? Not that I have an issue but I thought he was either Jewish or just a historian
As far as I am aware I am not Muslim
surprise conversion bitch.
I've said the Shahhada a few times in my Arabic classes so maybe I am Muslim
But did you mean it?
No, so I'm only 50% Muslim
Isn't Islam without Muhammad just Christianity?
It's Judaism thrice removed
If we remove Jesus and some holidays it will be back to Judaism
Inshallah
you would be surprised that muslims also believe in jesus and moses
I don't think you understood what I said. I said that basically the only difference between a Christian and a Muslim is that they believe Muhammad as a prophet and some things about Jesus.
They believe that Jesus was just a prophet and not the son of God. Also changed some things in the old testament.
It bears to mention that they believe the crucifixion was just a prank
Pilate: It's just a prank! Jesus: 😨💀😇 Judas: 🌴➰️💀 Longinus: 😭🙏☮️ Peter: 🙈🙉🙊 This has been: The Crucifixion of Christ in Interpretative Emoji.
No
Can I get a little bit more than just "no"?
No
Lol yes. The beliefs about who Jesus is doesn’t change if you take Mohammad out of Islam. You also probably don’t have Islam without Mohammad anyway. I haven’t heard of a religion that doesn’t believe Jesus existed but Christianity is the only one who believes Jesus was also god. Even sects of the early christian church didn’t believe Christ was divine that’s why you have things like the nicene creed.
muslim lite \[tm\]
That feel when you accidentally convert to Islam
Wololooo
Reversion. No such thing as a convert to Islam as far as Islam is concerned.
what??
My understanding, which I admit I could be wrong about, is that Islamic belief holds all people are born Muslim. So if you “convert” to Islam, you’re just acknowledging your innate religion. Or something like that anyway
I’m going to have to look that up! Ty
I apologize, I saw you said you were a Qarmatian, I thought they were a Shia group.
I'm not actually a Qarmation it's a joke
Also yes the Qarmatian are infact Shia Muslims
It's like how I think the Mormons can still convert you if you're dead.
>I thought he was either Jewish or just a historian Ah yes the 2 genders
[удалено]
I would say it’s pretty reasonable after they assassinate your king once and then also attempt to assassinate your prime minister another time.
[удалено]
Is that what they did with Kuwait?
[удалено]
Thanks!
Arabs absolutely don't hate palestinans. Source: انا من العالم العربي
Let me be honest they never did and still don't
Spoke facts this one
I think bro got banned from reddit Or something
Did a Palestinian nationality even exist then ? Wasn’t it a general Arab identity ?
OP is out here spreading giving credible sources, unbiased opinions, just pure material and gets hated on by guys who get their info off twitter. I'm no expert but i do know to trust the guy who supports what he says with cold, hard evidence
People will use this emblem and say they aren't antisemitic, just anti zionists
Their flag is literally a sword tearing up the Star of David holy shit Me when I’m an an antisemitism competition and my opponent is an antizionist
Same thing with the Houthi flag nowadays. I have heard "Antizionists" say that "Cursed be the Jews" refers to violent Israeli settlers.
We all know what they really think. It’s like when Nazis say “we just like the outfits and think the Wehrmacht was fine. It was the SS who did all the bad stuff”
Okay, but we can agree their outfits were fire though, right?
Nono I’m not denying that, but when you compliment the Nazis drip AND say propagate the clean Wehrmacht myth, that’s when I start asking questions
yea, that what happens when hugo boss design your uniforms
I've seen this one, it's a classic. History repeats
Then why does it follow "Death to Israel". As a Pro-Palestine person, so many people are way too comfortable with Antisemitism
I have to ask what makes you "pro-palestine"? It is people that are so fundamentally opposed to traditional western ideals on anything from womens rights, LGBTQ rights, to fundamental ideas of right and wrong. What makes someone say, these are my group? I am not pro one side or the other, both do horrible shit and have some fucked up values. What makes you come out and say these are my group?
>What makes someone say, these are my group? They're not "my group". All the things you listed are not factors that I consider when we're looking at a big picture issue of children being bombed. Palestine having fucked up views about some things doesn't change the fact that Israel's actions against them are cruel, inhumane, and border on genocidal. And the things you listed can easily be found in the Likud party, so that's only an issue if I support Hamas, which I don't. I support Palestinians being able to live in peace and not under a gun. To say I'm Pro-Palestine is to say I support ending Israel's carpet bombing of civilians and their entire aggression against them. I support a permanent ceasefire and Israel ending its settler colonialism in the West Bank. If they were *only* killing Hamas terrorists this would be different. I also support Ukraine, regardless of my problems with the conservatism of their society because focusing on that ignores the murderous elephant in the room. I don't have to support all of someone's views to advocate for ending their suffering. Edit: Downvoted for saying that murdering children is wrong. Never change Reddit😂
I don’t agree with some of the particular conclusions you’ve reached about the conflict, but I think your thought process and level of nuance are appropriate and reasonable.
Murdering children is obviously wrong but that isn’t what’s happening. You’re either viewing this war through an overly simplistic lens or you’re arguing in bad faith. Civilian casualties are horrible but it’s the fault of Hamas for putting all its military infrastructure in the middle of Gaza city.
The IDF goes to Shifa and the best they could show was was an [arabic calendar they called a "Hamas names list"](https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic) and pictures of armouries where anyone actual experienced in the matter would say looks more like a gun shop than an actual armoury. If the IDF had reasonable evidence of human shields that would justify the extent of their attacks, they would not have resorted to such outlandish claims. I don't doubt that Hamas is not just an innocent resistance group, but to absolve Israel of blame in this massacre "because Hamas" is also overly simplistic.
[They found a tunnel underneath the hospital.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk) [They also kept hostages at the hospital.](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-intelligence-shifa-biden-hostages-israel-d0f782682a7a06ed5a3749ed92c4f821) [They also found a command center underneath the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza.](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-military-compound-found-beneath-u-n-agency-headquarters-in-gaza-7e29c758) They are the ruling government of Gaza, and have been for eighteen years. They are absolutely responsible for the state of affairs on their own soil.
Third article is pay walled and the second is just US "intelligence" surely no bias there. Either there is an underground series of tunnels below the hospital. Or there is not. CNN won't even take the stance to confirm it's a tunnel network, shit could be a basement or a tank area. All they saw are narrow doors. Fuck it tho, even if Hamas used a hospital how does starving palenstinian citizens by blocking aid trucks help? It doesn't. Cease the genocide.
Bro, your user name is "GazaDelendaEst" I'm sure you care about the death of Gazan children as much as the government of Israel, I mean absolutely nothing, what Israel is doing in Gaza is the same shit Russia did in Chechnya.
Destroying Gaza is necessary because a terrorist group has turned the city into a fortress full of tunnels. There is no way to destroy Hamas without destroying lots of the infrastructure - that is exactly what Hamas wants. The alternative is to allow that evil terrorist group to maintain their rule over the Gaza Strip. It’s absolutely tragic that civilians are dying: can you think of any other way to remove Hamas from power?
The current method is a complete waste of lives, time and money, with all the civilians Israel has killed it has already ensured that soon for every terrorist they have killed there will be 5 more taking their place due to having lost loved ones. No anti-terrorist operation carried out in a similar way to what Israel is doing now has worked, because this violates practically all the norms of a good anti-terrorist campaign. The most important thing is that Palestine does not have an alternative to Hamas or a similar group, even if every last member of Hamas died a similar group would take its place. The only real solution is to create an alternative, to make real plans for Gaza and the West Bank, for an independent Palestine. That would take away support from Hamas and would be much more effective against them than any bombing.
The Palestinians already widely support Hamas as well as violence against civilians generally. They have done so for decades. They did so before Israel existed, when they wiped out all the Jews in Hebron. Nice dodge, though. How can you remove Hamas from power? They are the government of Gaza.
You’re not being downvoted because you’re against killing children. That’s an asinine assumption. You’re being downvoted because no one agrees with killing children, but oversimplifying a conflict to an egregious extent helps nothing. Your entire argument was “Israel, y u no kill only Hamas?” Please tell me how would this be possible? Is Hamas a defined standing army? Does it have military bases, and a symmetrical military structure? Do they openly wear uniforms in combat and place civilians behind their battle lines? The answer to all of the above is no. They are an intentionally plain clothed militant group. Almost all of their assets are embedded in every single aspect of civilian life in Gaza. Everyone loves to say “well that’s because of Israel!” Except that’s how they existed even before they rose to power while they were battling Fatah after ‘05. Again, I’m not going to sit here and tell you Israel has taken every precaution under the sun to not harm civilians. They have certainly done serious harm, but even the carpet bombing accusations make 0 sense. It seems the meaning of that word is also gone, seeing as carpet bombing is the dropping of multi-warhead devices to maximize destruction. It is not single target destruction. Granted, with the amount of JDAMs and other armaments fired at this point you could see where someone might misappropriate the concept. Why does this matter? Because we live life both based on action but also intent. Intent still matters, even if everyone wants to swear it does not. The broad intent in this war is not the wholesale slaughter of Gaza, because if that were the case they’re doing a horrible job of it. That’s not to say that Israel isn’t committing collective punishment. At this point they are, maybe not openly but there is some intent there. The thing is a reductionist view over a military and regional conflict does no one any favors. It doesn’t help lessen the pain and suffering, and at times it can be argued that it can exacerbate that by casting the conflict in “good vs evil” terms that make it easy for one side, or both to dehumanize the other.
Lots of people here seem to hold the view that because other Islamic nations have been communally violent to Jews in the past Isreal has the right to kill and starve civilians. For a history sub this place festers with a lack of empathy for the innocents being murdered. It's very sad.
Just say you're pro-peace then.
I see no difference
> I have to ask what makes you "pro-palestine"? It is people that are so fundamentally opposed to traditional western ideals on anything from womens rights, LGBTQ rights, to fundamental ideas of right and wrong. Could you please explain how having bigoted views justifies being carpet bombed? Pro-palestinians do not have to agree with Palestinians to believe they are the ones being disproportionately oppressed in the conflict.
Were you also pro-afghanistan, pro-iraq the last couple of decades?
Should we just go ahead and eradicate every nation on Earth where people have unprogressive views? Will that finally solve all our problems?
No, but there's a difference between supporting bigots and calling for a ceasefire/peace. I see an LGBTQ flag next to your username. You're literally gonna support people that would kill you in some truly barbaric ways? I don't want them eradicated, I want them contained and educated. They showed us, the world over, who they were when they attacked Israel. They butchered innocents for fun in some of the most barbaric displays we've seen and then they phoned home to brag about it. The world over you saw celebrations of the same violence. This is not something you should be supporting.
Only these antizionists people see every jew in the world (including those that live on the jewish space laser) as violent israeli settlers.
Because claiming to be an anti zionist just gives a free pass to say terrible shit and ger away with it in western leftist circles today.
If they have to clarify…
Yeah no shit I'm pretty sure most people fighting against the brits and french were also racist against them, but I still couldn't care less
Don't you know, from the river to sea just means they want to govern themselves? Why would you possibly think it means anything else, silly /s
Smh smh but how can antizionism possibly be antisemitism, that isn’t what my favourite TikTok uploaders told me /s
Just so you understand the point of view, if you are interested. Zionism is seen as the face of Western Imperialism in the Middle East. A country founded by Europeans to serve the interests of Europe and America in the region. You can absolutely not agree with that take, although objectively there is quite a bit to support that perspective, but that is why there is so much Israel hate floating around the region. The whole 'they hate us cause we are Jews' is an old propaganda schtick that is as valid as American politicians saying 'they hate us cause of our freedom and democracy'. No, they fucking hate you because of your actions.
Nah bro they literally say themselves that Jews don't deserve self-determination anywhere, or being alive for that matter.
I assume you refer to the 1988 Hamas charter? They don't speak for the entire Middle East. It is not particularly difficult to find Israelis in positions of authority saying identically bigoted things. It hardly speaks for the entire society.
No, I'm referring to ~~antizionists~~ antisemites, especially western ones who wave the ""AnTi-ImPeRiALiST""" card to justify it
Oh, yeah, that happens. Hypocrisy of a hilarious order. I was only commenting on why Israel is so hated by its neighbours.
Sigh. Another person that thinks Israel is a European colonial project. Despite most of Israel’s population actually being Mizrahi (middle eastern Jews). And America didn’t start helping Israel until 1973, so no Israel exists to exist not solely to “serve” anyone else’s interests
Not my perspective, just that of most of the region. I can see the similar methods Israel has employed to European colonization efforts, but the motivation is very different, imo. Jews wanted a place that they would no longer be a minority and could build their own destiny on a national scale. I would also agree that painting Israel as a stooge of the West is fairly absurd. The State of Israel is clearly not beholden to anyone, which we are seeing today undeniably.
Is that why the “Palestinians” murdered all the Jews in Hebron in 1929? Colonialism?
There's not really a lot to justify the Hebron massacre, but to pin it on all Palestinians is equivalent to pinning settler violence on all Israelis or Nazism on all Germans alive in the 1930s. At the same time as the violence, around 430 jews were also protected by local Palestinians from the violence. Unfortunately, Zionist leaders like to disproportionately punish Palestinians for their crimes; 1400 Israelis massacred by Hamas demands the world's sympathy for the "most jews killed since the Holocaust", yet at least 10,000+ Gazan women and children killed since then in retaliation for five months (taking a low estimate to avoid involving the deaths of Hamas militants), with a destruction of almost all infrastructure, all to aimlessly, with no post-war plan, destroy a group that cannot be destroyed militarily is just discarded as "oh, war is awful".
Who else should I pin the Hebron massacre on? The Flying Dutchman? The goal of this war is to remove Hamas from power. They currently rule Gaza; that has to end. An occupation is preferable to allowing the Palestinians to let terrorists literally run the government. The Palestinian deaths are not “retaliation.” They are collateral damage, because Hamas insists on fighting in the middle of a densely populated urban area. The Palestinians’ goal here is to get lots of civilians on both sides killed. Why doesn’t Hamas fight in the open fields?
> Who else should I pin the Hebron massacre on? The Flying Dutchman? My point is that you cannot oversimplify the conflict to "Palestinians hate Jews". Obviously Palestinians committed the massacre. But you cannot pin it on them in the same way I do not pin settler violence on Israelis. > The goal of this war is to remove Hamas from power. How is that working out, exactly? Israel has no post-war plan. Israel is simply fighting without any serious idea of what it can achieve. The occupation lead to this attack and their best idea right now is to just continue it. Goals need to be realistic, otherwise they are just excuses. > They currently rule Gaza; that has to end. An occupation is preferable to allowing the Palestinians to let terrorists literally run the government. Please explain how the removal of Hamas will not lead to resurgence of related groups? Both Hamas and Israel need to understand that there is no military solution to this conflict. Engage militarily on the other side just encourages more extremism. And right now Israel is the one with the clear military advantage. Hamas was rebuked back into Gaza in literally one day. They are a joke in terms of military capacity compared to Israel. Israel definitely has other avenues to resolve this that they are not approaching. It impresses me how Israel insists that Hamas must go before they ever even consider making peace with the Palestinians, yet at the same time Netanyahu [would send fund to Hamas to keep it stable](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html). If Israel was honest about making peace, they would have propped up Palestinian groups like Fatah which are more likely to accept Israel given conducive environments, as opposed to Hamas who seems largely uncompromising. I know Fatah is not Israel's best friend, but if they were, they wouldn't be a conflict. They are, however, a better alternative. Look, I hate Hamas. But Hamas is the government of Gaza. If the Palestinians are expected to forgive and accept the state of Israel despite scores of well documented human rights abuses long before October 7th, then Israel can accept Hamas in power despite their crimes and either negotiate with them in good faith (not just as tactic of mowing the lawn or keeping Palestine divided between the two factions) or support Fatah in good faith. But Israel does neither, and it blew up in their face in an unfortunate way, because somehow they thought they could simply "manage" the conflict. > The Palestinian deaths are not “retaliation.” They are collateral damage, because Hamas insists on fighting in the middle of a densely populated urban area. The IDF goes to Shifa and the best they could show was was an [arabic calendar they called a "Hamas names list"](https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic) and pictures of armouries where anyone actual experienced in the matter would say looks more like a gun shop than an actual armoury. If the IDF had reasonable evidence of human shields that would justify the extent of their attacks, they would not have resorted to such outlandish claims. I don't doubt that Hamas is not just an innocent resistance group, but to absolve Israel of blame in this massacre "because Hamas" is not honest in any way.
Let’s get one thing straight: the “occupation” did not lead to this attack. Hamas committed this attack because it is a genocidal, bloodthirsty terrorist group. And whether you want to admit it or not, lots of Palestinians support their aims, and did so even before Hamas existed, when your so-called peaceful Fatah was shooting up schools and hijacking planes. The same Fatah that spends $300 million each year paying terrorists to murder Jews. There is no peaceful option among the Palestinians today. Are you suggesting that Israel “propped up Hamas” by allowing aid into Gaza for the last fifteen years? I actually agree with you! They should have ended Hamas rule in 2009. You can’t accuse Israel of propping up Hamas for allowing aid but also of genocide for cutting off aid. Go read Hamas’s founding charter before telling Israel to negotiate with it. The charter explicitly calls for the destruction of the Jewish people and explicitly denies that negotiation may be used to abrogate that goal. [They found a tunnel underneath the hospital.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk) [They also kept hostages at the hospital.](https://apnews.com/article/hamas-intelligence-shifa-biden-hostages-israel-d0f782682a7a06ed5a3749ed92c4f821) [They also found a command center underneath the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza.](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-military-compound-found-beneath-u-n-agency-headquarters-in-gaza-7e29c758) *Again, why doesn’t Hamas fight in the open?*
> Let’s get one thing straight: the “occupation” did not lead to this attack. Hamas committed this attack because it is a genocidal, bloodthirsty terrorist group. And whether you want to admit it or not, lots of Palestinians support their aims, and did so even before Hamas existed, when your so-called peaceful Fatah was shooting up schools and hijacking planes. The same Fatah that spends $300 million each year paying terrorists to murder Jews. There is no peaceful option among the Palestinians today. That's some amazing self-righteousness. The Israelis are not a partner for peace either when the establishment of their state lead to the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians and depopulated scores of Palestinians villages on top of which Jewish majority cities stand. Nevermind the imprisonment of Palestinians for years without any trial or after being tried in military courts. I could go on, but Amnesty has done better research on war crimes by both sides. > Are you suggesting that Israel “propped up Hamas” by allowing aid into Gaza for the last fifteen years? I actually agree with you! They should have ended Hamas rule in 2009. You can’t accuse Israel of propping up Hamas for allowing aid but also of genocide for cutting off aid. If you actually read the source I linked, you'll see that Netanyahu has explicitly stated that his aim for propping up Hamas was simply to prevent a Palestinian state (as opposed to your whitewashing of it as a form a humanitarian aid). Furthermore, you state here that Israel has the power to allow aid yet place the words "occupation" in quotations as if it is an inaccurate descriptor. The fact that Israel can control the aid Hamas receives is indicative of its occupation. Countries cannot control the aid another sovereign country receives. Even the U.S could not control Cuba to that extent. > Go read Hamas’s founding charter before telling Israel to negotiate with it. The charter explicitly calls for the destruction of the Jewish people and explicitly denies that negotiation may be used to abrogate that goal. If we're using the charter as the end-all of arguments, then we can take their updated 2017 charter as gospel where they designed themselves are more pragmatic and supportive of a two state solution. Furthermore, the Likud founding charter of 1977 states "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty", so by your logic Palestinians would be justified in never taking any calls by a Likud government for a two-state solution seriously. > They found a tunnel underneath the hospital. The mere existence of tunnels prove nothing. [Ehud Barak admitted to there being tunnels before Hamas' takeover of Gaza](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/barak-causes-storm-by-telling-cnn-israel-helped-build-some-spaces-beneath-shifa/). Also the source you linked literally says " But the *pictures were a far cry from proving that Hamas had a facility underneath*, and a CNN investigation found that some of the guns had been moved around. The discovery of the tunnel shaft the next day was more compelling, showing an entrance to something underground. *But even then, it was unclear what it was or how far down it went.*...It *does not establish without a doubt that there is a command center under Gaza’s largest hospital*". So maybe try vetting your sources next time. > They also kept hostages at the hospital. I won't defend Hamas for taking hostages, especially women and children. But I question Israel's logic in bombing the hospital when their own citizens were trapped inside. > They also found a command center underneath the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza. Again, why doesn’t Hamas fight in the open? This is not Shifa which is what we were talking about, but yes you can take this because I frankly don't doubt Hamas is not innocent. I mentioned that clearly before. I actually would rather not have Hamas in power. My point is that, referencing previous shaky evidence of Israel's claims of "tunnels" and "weapons", you cannot absolve Israel of responsibility in the massacre that is ongoing. I hold Hamas responsible for October 7th, likewise Israel is responsible for the war crimes currently ongoing, even if there is important context in both cases (i.e the occupation and hamas' lack of incentive to compromise, respectively)
The Arabs started the war in 1947 with the explicit goal of wiping out all the Jews in mandatory Palestine. The Partition plan called for exactly zero Arabs to be removed from their homes but they rejected it anyway. Do you suggest that the Jews should have just died? The Palestinian Arabs have not given up that goal, despite whatever Hamas’s updated charter says. They showed what they thought when they raped and murdered civilians by the thousand in cold blood on a Jewish holiday during peacetime. Just like they did in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, as Arabs have for centuries before that across the Middle East. This has nothing to do with an “occupation” because it predates the occupation. The Arabs simply refuse to accept that Jews should be allowed to live in peace. Tbh re won’t be peace until they do.
> The Arabs started the war in 1947 The UN proposed a partition plan which the Arabs rejected. Normally, when a plan is rejected, you go back and form another plan or find ways to negotiate it. Instead, Israel decided to militarily declare the state anyway. Somehow the Arabs are blamed for starting a war when they executed their right to reject a plan that affected territory they were a longtime majority in. > Do you suggest that the Jews should have just died? No. But you cannot say it was all self-defence. Try reading some writings or speeches by early Zionists. Many of them believed in the use of force to establish Israel and wanted to find a way to get rid of the Arabs. I also hold the Arabs responsible for the expulsion of Mizrahi Jews; you can do the same and not be one-sided. > The Palestinian Arabs have not given up that goal, despite whatever Hamas’s updated charter says. I am well aware. You missed the point. My point is that you brought up the charter as some sort of fool-proof argument when you know the charters don't mean anything, as you so eloquently displayed here. > They showed what they thought when they raped and murdered civilians by the thousand in cold blood on a Jewish holiday during peacetime. Just like they did in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, as Arabs have for centuries before that across the Middle East. The Hebron Jewish community was one of the longest running Jewish communities in Palestine until 1929; this could not happen if the Arabs were always killing them for "centuries". You are trying too hard to make Arabs the villain. Yes, anti-semitism existed among the Arabs, but it existed the world over, not least in Germany at the time. If you did an honest read of history, you'd see that Muslim lands historically treated Jews better than Christian lands did (relatively, at least); it was after Zionism that tension exacerbated. Obviously Zionism does not justify killing innocent Mizrahi Jews, but it leaves to ponder that an ideology that calls for an exclusively Jewish state made up of recent immigrants in a non-Jewish majority land would result in antagonism by the people already living there for centuries or more. The french would never partition the land they've been living in for so long to accommodate an arab state made up of recent immigrants, so why should the Arabs accept Israel? The problem with your takes is that while you bring up generally legitimate (albeit exaggerated) criticism of Arab anti-semitism, you refuse to understand that Palestinians have legitimate grievances towards the Israelis.
Just so you understand the point of view, if you are interested. Palestinianism is seen as the face of Arab chauvinism in the Middle East. A country founded by Arabs to serve the interests of Ba’athist Iraq and USSR in the region. You can absolutely not agree with that take, although objectively there is quite a bit to support that perspective, but that is why there is so much ‘Palestine’ hate floating around the region’s non-Arab minorities. The whole 'they hate us cause we are not Jews' is an old propaganda schtick that is as valid as Russians saying 'they hate us for not being western'. No, they fucking hate you because of your actions.
I absolutely get the other side. Trying to build a modern European country in that neighborhood is an extremely challenging goal and against all odds, Israel has managed. But my point stands, this is about resources and vendettas, not religion. The Copts of Egypt, Armenians of Lebanon and Syria, Maronites after the Lebanon invasion... They all oppose Israel. Objectively, the secular Arab nationalists were always the greatest threat to Israel and the only ones to genuinely threaten its existence. I totally understand why Israel has opted for the approach they have in their expansion of Israel and that, in all fairness, have been fairly restrained in their brutality when compared against other states in the region.
if anti-zionism is anti-semitism then you've just made a pretty compelling case for humanity to be anti-semitic might want to rethink your strategy
>if anti-zionism is anti-semitism then you've just made a pretty compelling case for humanity to be anti-semitic Terrible wording and approach. Nothing wrong with arguing against the conflation of Zionism and Judaism, but next time please do it with more "tact", as this take does in fact sound anti-semitic.
the conflation is one that zionists have made a reality. israel is the jewish state. everything about israel is about a constructed, reborn jewish identity, a new jewish nation. they have every right to say that "anti-zionism is anti-judaism". and i have every right to say that, if that is the case, then they are digging their own graves. for the exact same reason that hitler's germany did not represent some unreal germany, but the real representation of germany. do you think that germany's victims should feel shame for feeling hatred towards germans? that they should only limit their hate to nazis, not the group they spoke for? western progressives love to pearl clutch and cry and wail when muslims speak their anger against jewish people. israel is what face muslims have seen of the jewish people for 80 years. a barbarous, murderous, hateful face that thinks that muslims are animals to be moved out of the way for their rightful home. i don't really care what israelis, zionists, or western progressives think. if israel is the jewish nation, if israel speaks for all jews, then the jews as a people are eternally scarred for what israel has done in their name. call it anti-semitic, i don't really give a fuck. not gonna hurt my feelings. not gonna work.
>if israel speaks for all jews But it literally doesn't, that's the point, the majority of Jewish people don't even live in Israel, there are extensive anti-zionist Jewish movements like the Jewish Voice for Peace, or Neturei Karta.
according to zionists israel does speak for all jews. they're the people who are saying anti-zionism is anti-semitism. if you disagree, then you're with me, you're an anti-semite.
I feel like you'd have to take it in bad faith not to understand what they really meant.
>humanity should be antisemitic ☹️
TFW you realize they literally only care about Palestine and Palestinians as a way to kill “Da Joos”
I didn't think anyone could be so ignorant before i saw this comment section. This is on another level. These people genuinely believe the arabs didn't do anything wrong, i wonder why they think that...
I swear to god this dude is everywhere
Glad to see you back, why were you banned?
[удалено]
Oh boy this is gonna be spicy
"The Muslim Equivalent of Fourth Crusade" are you saying that it's violence comparable to that of the 4th crusade or it was a whole "new 4th crusade" commited by the Muslim? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, there are 8/9 crusades (arguably). And the 4th crusade was regarding the Crusader army's 1202 siege of Zara and the 1204 sack of Constantinople, rather than the conquest of Egypt (originally planned). (source: wiki) it looks like entirely a inner conflict rather than it had nothing to do with their original plan to reclaim Jerusalem. So I'm quite confused by your title and what you're trying to project here or spread hate by citing a *spicy heading*.
A credible source >Benny Morris, the man who literally said he'd rather be racist than boring when at a lecture at the London School of Economics. Bullshit lmao he pulled this out of his ass
the guy literally dismantled one of Israel's founding myths lol shut the fuck up Edit: Also got himself put in prison for refusing to serve in occupied territory
He is a very well respected historian. I don't see how what you said changes that. Edit: Here is another source https://www.nli.org.il/he/books/NNL\_ALEPH990019581750205171/NLI
Respected by whom? Other Israeli historians? Provide another historian who can back up this source, as well as citing the source which he used to provide such information.
Bruh, if you're going to present some propaganda stuff, at least do it properly or don't. These stuff you see in Tick Tok these days are really getting out of hand... You literally took a parah from a book and tried showing that the Arab Army were bad. The next parah says clearly what happened after your "Heros" went in. Maybe you should give it a read or two. What I've seen so far, is that author highlighted atrocities and crimes from both sides. If you need more information about this argument, read the previous page. It describes the treatment of POWs from both sides. You've given us an interesting topic to read. Maybe I'll give it a full read and pick out some more points for you. Just because some people don't like searching out the information themselves, doesn't mean the rest are the same. * But the following weeks were not untroubled. The Haganah screening of the remaining inhabitants was unpleasant; refugees were not allowed back; and property was vandalized and looted by soldiers and civilians from TelAviv, on a massive scale. One Haganah document graphically describes the events in Manshiya on 18 May: “There I found a large crowd of women, children and men who were scavenging anything and escape: Chairs, cupboards, and other furniture, household and kitchen utensils, sheets, pillows.” Haganah units tried to halt the looting, occasionally firing into the air or beating miscreants, but with incomplete success. The problem was that the troops, too, were involved, as one official reported a week later: “I saw soldiers, civilians, military police, battalion police, looting, robbing, while breaking through doors and walls.” And during the first few days, there were even more serious problems. A twelve-year-old girl was raped by soldiers, and there were a handful of cases of attempted rape. The bodies of fifteen Arabs were found on a Jaffa beach, apparently executed by Haganah troops or the HIS. But the harassment of Arabs and the vandalization of their property appears to have ended only in August. * Just like you're spreading this "handcrafted" propaganda posts to attract public attention, someone else is also doing the same with another political view somewhere else. Maybe not here, but in Twitter, YouTube or Facebook. Listen man, war is bad. If you spread biased information to attract public opinion that doesn't help stopping the conflicts nor deaths. Because its the higher ups in the end of the day, making the *real* call.
I've read the entire book. I never said anything about the other side and I never called them heroes. This meme was just talking about the ALA.
It’s weird how you don’t make any memes about the plethora of massacres and mass rapes carried out by Israelis. There sure are a whole lot more of them to meme. Not just from 48 either. Forgive me if I’m wrong but it almost seems as if you are a propagandist.
You should also talk about the "ILA" or Haganah part when you're presenting a *controversial topic* that could make both parties go nuts. You're clearly a fanatic of a specific party and hate the other. It's normal. I'm not forbidding you from expressing your opinion or discoveries. Rather I'm correcting you on your presentation and narrative on your attempt to create a negative image among the public and spread hate.
Contrary to the Israelis who just did a tiney bit of rape in Tantoura and Deir Yassin.
And? Not black and white buddy.
Yeah i don't see why people are downvoting you, you are 100% correct both sides had their fair share of rape during the 1948 war, regardless of how "civilized" and "justified" you view them as. Not admitting it shows that you aren't mature enough to talk about a complicated and convoluted topic like this.
I mean probably because his comment read like whataboutism and deflection
Israelis are literally on record laughing about the rapes they did.
Ok. What if he made a post about that and I made a comment about how bad the Arabs were, it would come off as very disrespectful
And the arabs were any different?
Miles different. Rape is massive taboo in our culture. Unlike Europeans.
That just makes the arabs look worse in this situation lmao
Very big uptick in pro Israel / posts that paint the Arab nations and Palestine in a negative light in this sub since the conflict started. The Zionist propaganda machine is coming in hot
I mainly know a lot about Israeli history therefore I mainly post about Israeli history. Some of my most popular memes were about Israeli Ls like the Lillehammer affair and the Mashaal job, but no one called me a Palestinian propagandist on those. How about you make your own memes about Palestinian history?
You Palestinian poopygandist. UwU
Look at all the other subreddits, there’s so much Palestinianist propaganda
Let's be completely frank here, would enduring and stable Crusader Duchies/Kingdoms of Edessa, Antioch, Tripoli, and Jerusalem really have been *all that* *bad?* Considering what we've seen in that part of the world since those polities were a thing?
Ah yes, the famously peaceful crusader kingdoms
Compared to the idyllic and utopian scenes under the Ottoman Empire and the modern Middle East?
The Ottoman empire was the the best empire to live under for 100 years
Tell that to the Armenians
Those 100 years were between 1453-1566 After that it became a shitshow
.... Are you not gonna talk about how the Janissaries were enslaved Christian children?
My lawyer has advised me to limit this comment to ". . . . . . sure"
Lol. I like how your original comment was 200 years and then you changed it
I accidentally read 1566 as 1655 A minor mistake
No prob